It sounds like the drunken chief got to the accident scene while Butch was parking the bus, put Maura in the car, experienced her manipulative, intoxicated pleading not to cite her for drunk driving. The Chief saw an opportunity and drove off with her before anyone saw, within minutes. Then car 002 shows up. If Butch had problems with a lie detector test it's because he saw the Chief and was afraid to admit it.
@@adamant5550 They always leave reality with their theories I guess they believe Maura Murray had a car accident and then gets picked up by a killer cop
I've been listening to the Podcast and I'm so excited I found these videos! I'm going to be binge watching/listening to all of these for days lol! I'm seriously obsessed with this case!
And about Butch. I have always bristled at the public accusations made, and at speculation that he may have harmed Maura. I've read plenty of reasons he almost certainly could not have been involved - the time frame was too narrow to allow for him, an ailing man of ill health and with obesity hampering his mobility, to in a matter of moments subdue, restrain, and hide/kill an elite, military-trained athlete a third his age; he lived with family; he called and cooperated with police (the polygraphs I won't mention; they're not evidence); his neighbors knew and saw him, driving a large and conspicuous vehicle. Now he's dead and without a resolution to this case, he could forever remain some people's proven-guilty suspect. That bothers me. To me, Butch has always shared with Maura the same cruel fate of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. John Smith, I'm curious to hear more of your opinion on this.
It's irresponsible to accuse anyone of harming Maura without more evidence being revealed than we have. I was convinced that Forcier did it (for about a day or two, anyway). Then I listened to another podcast where the hosts correctly pointed out that there is weirdness everywhere you look regarding this case! So my mind is open to all possibilities until more is revealed. It's certainly possible that this case will never be solved.
@@miningcamper But that's how it is when you look at a case without evidence - all kinds of strange connections will evolve - you end up with circular patterns of thinking and you will end up nowhere...
Really excellent episode, the best of the series, IMO. I loved the back and forth questioning, cutting it down to the bone. I would love to see a physical timeline because there were a lot of details. I'm definitely gonna re-listen to this show a couple of more times. Appreciate you guys. Thank you Mr. Smith for your tremendous input!
Re Butch Atkins, it's quite possible he saw exactly what happened to Maura and he's afraid to tell. The same as Witness A, Karen McNamara was afraid to come forward about seeing the Police SUV #001 parked nose to nose with Maura's car. Rather than Butch having committed a crime against Maura, he's more likely the man who saw a police officer commit a crime. What time were the two 911 call registered by the authorities ?
The dog scented Maura having walked toward Butch's house. If that is true, Butch would have been backing his bus in driveway. Did he ask her to board bus again? Did his bus block view? Did he go into house, to call police to distract his common law wife and the police. He returns to bus, to do paperwork, and Maura could have been on bus..??? If this is true, Butch has happened upon Maura, not once, but twice...................much too coincidental....
Here's one thing I never hear mentioned, or discussed in any detail. According to reports, and the missing posters, Maura's phone was a Sprint Samsung model SPH-A620. This is the phone that may have reportedly been seen and mistaken for a "man smoking a cigarette", per Mrs. Westman's 911 call. Mr. Westman, however, stated that he thought it more likely that it was someone attempting to use or charge a cellphone. I've downloaded and read the entirety of the user's manual for this model of phone, and the only red LED on the phone itself is on the external display when the phone is closed and you have a missed voicemail message. In this case, the crescent-shaped LED (looks like a smile) below the external screen blinks red. I would think this blinking would be easy to discern, even if one only glanced at the scene from their window briefly, and would be difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette. The phone itself has no constant red light, ever. The only other red light associated with this model phone is either on the desktop or travel chargers, both of which require being plugged into a standard wall outlet, not a car lighter, so these weren't being used at the time. Perhaps she did have some sort of 3rd party charger for the car, but again, this light isn't on the phone itself, and would emanate from the plug, also difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette I would think. I just find it odd no one ever questions this further, and if they did I never found it in my extensive reading.
+Ts0usermax I asked that very same question above. And, in more recent talk on this subject we did discover the phone itself can have a constant red light when charging. It's on one of the later episodes. I'm not rehashing that here. One interesting thing on the account of the red light that I only found recently: "I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was? He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger." notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/ I was always under the impression it was the other way around, and that Mr. W never thought it was a cigarette, and that he originally thought it was a cell phone charger.
+Ts0usermax "Perhaps she did have some sort of 3rd party charger for the car, but again, this light isn't on the phone itself, and would emanate from the plug, also difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette I would think." And the further discussion is in the comments of episode 21. There has also been an interesting point brought up on those particular Saturns having a red light on the dash. Though the angle of view may be questionable. I also notice Gabrielle Goodwin's named just changed to David. Interesting.
I think that chief was really driving the SUV 001 and he was drunk and he heard the accident call and he went to the scene, that road is dark as hell and she may not have trusted Butch so she took her phone and backpack because it had her ID and money in it and walked to get service which is why she locked her car and the cop accidentally hit her and thought he killed her and freaked out and I’m sure it was him or Cecil or whoever who canceled the call, put her body in the truck, the other cop he called (Cecil or whoever) staged her accident which is why Tim Westman saw “her” accelerated and hit the tree and then the Westman’s called 911 to report the accident. This is why Tim Westman is so adamant when he says he saw the car accelerate to the tree. I think Maura really may have hit that Petrit that night and that’s why FM came to UMASS and took out 4K to get her a new car and maybe Monday they were really supposed to get the car but FM said they would next weekend because he didn’t want it to be suspicious if MM got a new car the next day so FM probably said go park it somewhere away from here and next weekend we will get it. I think MM was so freaked out about staying there with her car she just left because she was scared and unfortunately met her demise by a piece of shit police chief that had absolutely no business driving or even being a cop at all. This may also explain why one of the psychics has said that MM was buried underground but was alive when she was buried, but if she was hit by that drunk police chief with the SUV 001 and he thought he killed her so he buried her but she was actually still alive and if that’s so then that’s sooooooo horrible. It would be even more horrible if that was done on purpose, but I really think the drunk bastard thought she was dead. I am so angry no one is saying anything about this because there’s clearly people who know. I believe that whoever made and canceled that first accident report either is directly responsible for her disappearance or knows who is. SPEAK UP ASSHOLES
I put my whole beliefs and truths that I had on this case behind me.. There are only two things I know about this case now... One: I care about what happened to Maura... And two: something stinks..there really needs to be an investigation external to the New Hampshire State Police!!!
If I remember clearly on Helena Murray's blog there was discussion of how some officer or other went looking for Maura that night while driving an SUV and that Butch Atwood took his own vehicle and searched something called French Pond Road. It was years ago now but somewhere on Helena's blog there should be something about what official was driving the SUV.
And Maura's sister claims she found a pair of women's underwear, on top of the snow, somewhere on French Pond Rd. The police later said those underwear "didn't have to do with" Maura.
To add to last my comment, if there are unidentified fingerprints found and it calls into question the credibility that the woman seen by Butch Atwood and spoken to was not "100%" Maura Murray, couldn't a request be put in to involve the FBI. If the last verifiable and 100% credible sightings of Maura caught on surveillance was Maura at an ATM in Mass and a receipt from a liquor store in Mass, that would mean the disappearance really does span 2 states which means the FBI would need to be involved since the FBI covers interstate disappearance;s homicides; kidnappings, etc.
+Blair Ribeiro Miss, according to James Renner [he runs a blog about this case and will have a book coming out about it in a few months] the FBI were involved in the case from its earliest days and that Fred's assertion that they have never been involved is dead wrong!
I get your point, but the woman Atwood spoke to was most likely Maura. The problem with high profile cases like this isn that you get people muddying the waters with nonsense, people going off in tangents etc. I doubt the police were involved in any wrong doing. This is a case of a distraught woman going missing, on a lonely back road. She wanted to sober up before the police arrived so she hitched a lift with someone she shouldn't have. It happens all too often, women disappearing this way especially hitch hikers.
Marie lav, you "doubt the police were involved in any wrong doing." Oh , come on now. Listen to more podcasts. Even if they don't know what happened to Maura, their behavior is downright weird.
Butch Atwood was minding his own business coming home from work. He offered assistance to MM who declined. It’s beyond unfair people continue to drag his name through the mud.
I’m really late to this game, but I wonder if anyone can tell me - was it discussed that maybe she rear ended the bus as the driver was stopped in the road? And that is why he backed it all the way up to his house so no one could see it until he was able to look at it in the morning when there is more light? I’ve seen cars totaled by running into the back of a school bus and the bus only had minor damage. And maybe that was the red light…a reflection of the bus taillight on her window or through the window. He asked her to get in the bus to warm up. And the rest is?
But then you have to reason that this cop hit a drunk girl in a car and instead of charging her with the crime, it would have been easy after all Maura's car was loaded with booze, he plotted with a guy he had drinks with to have her murdered to cover up his crime.
This is an odd coincidence; I was just commenting about, essentially, this scenario. I've had to step back from MM because some players do their best to turn any and every thing into a cringeworthy Lifetime Drama. But over the years, I've kept up from a distance. Most of my Top Ten hypotheses, unfortunately, results in Maura being long dead. But I can't rule out the possibility that *a* vehicle came by right after the bus driver. Maybe Maura even tried to flag the car down, having the feeling that the bus driver didn't believe her lie about calling AAA, or maybe Maura (shaken up and slightly drunk) stepped out in front of an oncoming car. But in the time that the bus driver was parking (he didn't just pull in; he manoeuvred the bus to easily leave the next day), calling to his wife (or walking in, which was no small task for him), telling her to call the police, and then getting to his paperwork (in the bus), someone injured Maura and, seeing no one else around, took her into their car
The time where this podcast mentions the SUV and the Saturn being nose-to-nose when they passed by could easily have been the exact same moment a panicked, inexperienced LEO was making the decision to try to get the body to the nearby hospital themselves, and found after they had left that Maura was already dead, or was dying, and decided to just forget this ever happened, not call it in, and not continue on to hospital.
I'm watching all you videos again from the first that I could find on maura. For some reason this still feels like it was yesterday. She went missing the day my son was born, maybe it was a mother's instinct that's kept me wondering about her.... Idk
In relation to the part of this episode where Tim and Lance talk to John Smith about Rick Forsyth's personality, I disagree with their opinions thinking that Rick can't be a focused person as well as laid back in different areas of his life. Once again, if this has been discussed a lot, I am sorry. My brother would be the classic example of someone who is extremely focused in his studies and career but quite laid back in other areas of his life and knows how to relax. My brother is about to turn 29 next week and is just finishing his Masters in Neuropsychology. He has studied for the last 10 years and earned good marks, he was automatically enrolled in the Honours program for Psychology because of this. He also has managed to hold a good full time job at the university during his studies. He is extremely focused and knows what he wants. He is laidback in the sense that separated from this, he is really relaxed and not a lot bothers him. He is a skater and a surfer, while both these activities can take a lot of focus similar to Ricks hunting, skaters and surfers even when dedicated are know overall to be quite relaxed in personality. So I think that Rick can definitely be both as well in that sense, focused and serious in certain areas of his life while being relaxed and still focused for certain things in other parts of his life.
Maura could have been side swiped by an on- coming vehicle thus spinning her car around other direction. Her front right driver side looks like she took a hit from a truck bumper...
Can someone explain how the SUV Cruisier 001 passed witness A twice while heading east toward the accident scene? Seems non-sensical unless 001 is flying around searching for someone and witness A is driving really really slow. Sounds like the latest scenario is the police chief kidnapped her? Ugh.
+Savryn Myst I read somewhere that the SUV Cruiser #001 passed witness 'A' headed east, turned down a side road that witness 'A' drove past, then came back out and overtook witness 'A' again.
+Savryn Myst There are roads that branch of to the left (West) between Cottage Hospital and 112 off of Goose Lane, such as Cemetery Road, that connect back up to 112. The officer would have had to take one of these, then turn right onto 112, then overtake the witnesses vehicle again. Take a look at the map of the area.
This is my theory, which is to me the only logical conclusion. 1) Old dude in bus asked her if she is ok and she said yes.He asked her if he can call for help.She said no as she was probably drunk and didn't wanna get in trouble. Keep in mind that she got lucky a few days earlier and avoided a D.U.I. I'm sure she was aware that the odds of getting away with drinking and driving again where slim.2) She probably panicked and thought to herself, the old man driving the bus is probably gonna call the cops (which he did) and I'm gonna get in big trouble for drinking and driving. 3) In between the guy in the bus calling the cops and cops arriving at scene, she more than likely got into a car with someone else or run into the woods in order to elude the cops.4)I would assume that she got into a car with someone offering her a ride(probably someone closer to her age, because she probably trusted people closer to her age) That would explain why the tracking dogs suddenly lost her scent.Her scent was never tracked into the woods. The guy in this interview is full of shit.Isn't it known already that her dad told her to put rag in tail pipe? So why would this investigator (More like a conspiracy theorist) even remotely imply that the cops planted the rag in the tale pipe? Doesn't he know the girls father? Wouldn't he that the father told her to put the rag in tail pipe? So the car didn't hit a tree, but it probably hit a stationary object that caused damage to the hood? lmfao !!!! Sounds like she probably hit a tree.Why would the bus driver call the cops if he had something to do with her disappearance? There is nothing here people. She got into a car with someone and it more than likely ended up very bad for her.
+jesse sarmiento My real doubt in her hitting a tree began when I recently re-watched the WMUR (NH's news station) report on it just a few days later. www.wmur.com/Feb-9-2004-Maura-Murray-Goes-Missing/13092800 There was no significant snowfall in the following days and judging by the video (shot starts at 0:17 in the WMUR video), at least to me, it doesn't appear a vehicle traveled through the snow into those trees. The trees surrounding the one with the bow can all clearly be seen (supposedly she hit the next tree down from the one that always has the ribbon according to Mr. Westman) in that shot as it sweeps over from the corner to the trees. I just don't see any tire marks or disturbed snow that far out, and certainly there would be some if it "bounced" off the tree as claimed. Just my observation.
+Alex C She never hit a tree she went into a snowbank. She hit a tree was just assumed by a reporter, but it's been know she didn't hit a tree from hour 1.
+Gabrielle Goodwin Since my last reply on this was deleted (and not by Tim and Lance, which I find very interesting), I'll repost it. I don't think she hit the trees either, but someone should tell this to the eyewitnesses who are still adamant to this day that she hit a tree and the police who reported that there was "evidence at the scene indicated the vehicle...struck some trees" too.
I live close enough to the town where she disappeared that my local newspaper covers this. About a month ago the Caledonian Record reported that the FBI has been involved from the start of the case. This came out not long after her dad went public with a petition to get the FBI involved. I find it hard to believe her dad didn't know the FBI was involved. Of course they would have questioned him by now.
Solving this case basically comes down to literally 5 min if that because that's about the window of time from the bus driver talked to Maura and the police officer showing up. There was a window of about 5-10 min top where she straight up vanished. Crazy shit
That's why I feel like it had to be the bus driver, a le officer or someone who was meeting her up there somewhere because what are the odds that a random crime of opportunity person would have encountered her in that small window of time, it's a rural place. Maybe in a city but not in rural NH.
Losing my father at a young age I was 16 he was only 43 out of no where he was my best friend and the hurt and heartache is unbearable even now this was feb.14th of 2010 & as horrible as that is I couldn't imagine not knowing at all what truly happened to him I have a new out look on Fred I'm glad more stuff is being put out of why he did and does some things
I don't doubt your claims that you received positive feedback for the Crossing the Rubicon episode, but if you truly received little to no negative feedback, then how come comments are disabled for that video?
+Kyle Stair It was a joke, Kyle. We receive criticism for every episode. Cold suggested we disable comments for that video and we agreed, seeing that it became about everything but this case.
+Missing Maura Murray maybe its a New England thing or something but i picked up on the sarcasm right away when it was said I couldn't believe how many people thought u guys were some kind of lunatics who just dont live in real life and believed you were serious. Keep up the good work guys I know you seem to get a lot of slack and i dont think thats fair you are just two normal dudes doing something awesome that many of us are thankful for (but please for the love of god no more cold). Thanks again and Merry Christmas
+Missing Maura Murray Uhhh, it SO didn't sound like you were being sarcastic (and I'm a pretty sarcastic person). I don't mind having comments disabled when you're thinking you'll be getting a lot of troll comments, though!
+Sweet Suzy There is nothing there. He isn't physically capable. Plus he's the second person who reported this to the police as soon as he got home within like 10 minutes of the accident.
They didn't say much about it. I think they had some guy as a guest on the podcast and he caused some trouble or something? I'm so nosy though. It bugs me that I missed it, LOL.
The elephant story is about how the elephant is described differently by different people as they touch different parts of the elephant it's not about how large the elephant is. Other than that rant you guys have an awesome blog and I'm looking forward to watching the documentary as soon as it's available on Netflix or Amazon prime as I don't have any extra money to pay to watch. Keep up the good work.
In the "mind your own business" culture of New Hampshire, I can understand someone calling the police and then not watching the scene any longer. I don't see anything suspicious in Mrs. Wiseman finishing her phone call and then going about her business without watching the crash scene any longer.
It's not suspicious per se, it's just oh so convenient that nobody was watching when they should have been watching and here we are at 20+ years later.
@@tarik6990 It's only convenient if one insists that there had to be foul play happening. No one "should have been watching." There's nothing wrong with making a phone call and then minding one's own business.
@@tarik6990 That's your choice. To me, that accident wasn't in the lady's backyard. It was across the street. If I didn't see anything particularly concerning when I first looked, I wouldn't sit there watching. People regularly stop for a few minutes at a place across the street from me. The road goes to the town dump and the gun range. At night, the road is closed and gated, and people will stop there to check their phones or take a leak or whatever. If I watched everyone who stopped, I'd spend my whole life worried about what was happening across the street. If there were an accident, I'd call the highway patrol and go back to minding my own business unless there was something directly suspicious.
Hi Tim and Luke. Very interesting interview with John. And you are great interviewers, I might add. Thank you so much for all you do. But I have to tell you I AM confused about the timeline of events at the crash site. And I DID listen to your podcast the other day with 'witness A', Erin, and I realize she doesn't still have her phone records (if I remember correctly) from 2004.. That's where we'll get precise times from her cell phone call records, and the 911 call records. I know you guys do so much already......but have you made up and posted a timeline anywhere for what you've got so far pertaining to all known events at the crash scene? That would help so much to get a clearer pic. I'm also trying to get my bearings as to what direction the cars were parked and so forth. So I'm guessing that they would all have passed the RED BARN on the right, took the curve and then there was the crash site on the right?? Wish I was more computer savvy!!!! And I'm talking about the first responders to the scene, whether it was the 911 caller, or the man in the bus or the first cop in the SUV who 'witness A' saw , already parked nose to nose with Maura's car, which had come to a stop pointing the wrong direction off the road in the snowbank. I've been so intrigued with this case since I happened upon a dateline video covering this story, Then I found your channel and all your extensive work you've done over the years. Thank you all for that. I believe you guys will help to get to the bottom of all this confusion, shoddy police work, cover-up......et al...and solve this sad case and find Maura. Thanks again ~ EDIT UH oh!! I think I may be even MORE confused than I think. I may have listened to 2 different podcasts with 2 different women. (Erinn and Witness A being 2 different ladies). So sorry. And did you ever hear from Susan Champee to talk about the 2 bystanders???
I think they said in a more recent podcast that the blogger they interviewed in ep 18 went on to say some negative stuff about this show, the listeners of this show, and the Murray family, so they pulled it.
At 43:07, if Faith saw this car wrecked on the side of the road, no way she didn't watch the whole thing unfold and to it's conclusion. It's late, it's an accident, you thought enough of it to look the 1st time... no way you're looking away from it and going to sit down and watch tv. You may walk off to tell whomever is in the house with you, or go get your glasses on, but you're coming back and watching it all play out. You just are. Aren't people nosy by nature?
I've been following this case and podcast for a while but I can't seem to recall if the following question has been asked. It came to me John Smith reiterated that "no one knows for sure" if the woman seen at the car by Butch Atwood was actually Maura. I combined this with the mention of the infamous and frustrating "rag in the tailpipe." So my question is, "has anyone ever tested the "rag in the tailpipe;" the tailpipe itself; the passenger side door; and or the hood/dented front part of the fender, for fingerprints?" If the person at the car who Butch Atwood met wasn't Maura or was someone "with or pretending" to be Maura, it's possible that Maura was abducted or hurt much earlier on in her trip and whoever did something to her staged the scene on 112. Their fingerprints or the existence of foreign fingerprints could be a good clue or maybe even open a new door for investigators. It could also broaden the search field if it can be determined that the whole area for where Maura is could be between the last time she was seen at the gas station and at the accident scene. My apologies if this question has been asked before.
+Blair Ribeiro Did you know, Blair, that it has been shown that there is about 40 minutes or so that are unaccounted for? That is, people have figured out that if she left Amherst about 4:30 or so she would have been at the accident spot about 40 minutes earlier assuming she drove straight through. Therefore the conclusion is that she either stopped somewhere for a fair slice of time or was driving on another road somewhere before heading to whatever fate befell her at the accident scene.
John Avellar -That is really interesting information that I hadn't heard before. Is there any speculation about where else she may have been or at this point is the me anomaly the only info that's been brought to light?
I've also wondered if it was actually Maura at the car. Everyone assumes she went missing from the accident. What if she went missing before that. Personally, I think the simplest theory is usually what happened. She had an accident, she had been drinking, in a slightly drunk state, upset by the accident she ran into the woods and hid and probably died out there somewhere.
I agree this is the simplest theory and it has been mine since I first heard about this case. I think the fact that there are so many (at face value) odd details about this case has driven people to concoct wild conspiracy theories. I'd wager if we could rule out 3-4 of these strange details (a detailed and accurate timeline, whether or not there was a man smoking in car, knowing exactly why she left, and whether or not her car had been in an accident before) we'd have about 90% of the case solved.
I would say using common sense only and not by facts, she was the driver only because she has so many wrecks before this last wreck. Idk if she's a horrible driver, doesn't drive well during stress, or has an alcohol problem that causes her to drive so badly. But IMO, she was driving until we find more evidence that she wasn't.
Great episode. Witness 'A' saw SUV Cruiser #001 nose to nose with Maura's car and the other witness (Ms. Champie) saw Maura's passenger car door open and 2 bystanders. And all other witnesses missed this. UNbelievable. I actually feel physically sick. Keep pushing for the FBI to get involved.
Heck yeah of course. I mean if my child was missing I would police, psychics, whoever I could to get some answers.... I don't blame him... They of course are never always 100 percent but neither are most of the detectives who are supposed to be finding the people who go missing...
That bend where she spun out is pretty damn sharp. If she was flying down that road especially at night I wonder if there were skid marks or maybe she wasn't going that fast. I don't know but it's a deceptively sharp turn left if you are careful.
ok, this one has got me soo very confused, I listened to this several times to make sense of what Smith is collaborating, and it got me so confused....... I have been following the Maura Murray case and have papers out of the wooza with this case..
I wonder if the people in the red truck were waiting for Maura. Like it was planned to meet there. Then when she wasn't at that spot they went to the other. Then they went toward the accident and found her there.
Yes! This is nearly exactly what I think! I think the red suv was following Maura on purpose, it was part of the plan. I think her friends knew about it and it was planned at the party. I truly think Maura was drinking and did crash her car. She panicked and fled. Waited for the red truck (which she knew was close behind) and the rest of the plan continued.
The tailpipe rag? Seems clear to me that she must have had CAR TROUBLE and so followed what her father had always told her to do. Car trouble leading up to the accident, maybe for some time before something happened. Was that the cause of the accident, rather than drunkenness? Slippery roads because of the snow? Skidding with car trouble? I tend to think that she may only have been sipping alcohol rather than really downing it. A lot of it could have spilled? People might only have the impression that she was drunk when maybe she was not really drunk at all. After all she had travelled quite a distance hadn't she? Even if she had a coke drink smelling of alcohol, it may not have been that much alcohol in there. Another thing is girl's can be very inexperienced drivers when it comes to long distance, especially if they are used to driving just around town and long distance driving can be overwhelming to a young person. Trying to give Maura a little bit of credit because she seems to look rather sensible to me regardless of mistakes.
Why haven’t we seen accident photos or heard the 911 calls. What can it possibly hurt after all this time to release those? In most cases you see that right away.
Guys, What happened to episode 18??? I´ve been binge listening ALL episodes and really wish I could listen to it, specially now that I hear you guys commenting about the great response from the public. =////
Dude knows NOTHING about EMS procedures. Maybe he should stop talking. The 911 caller said “she isn’t injured, just shook up.” I’m not sure why EMS was called out at all. Being on scene for 6 minutes is not unusual. They have no patient. They are not search and rescue (that is usually FD or DNR) if they find something, they can call EMS back. People who know nothing about EMS really shouldn’t speak about it.
This podcast has gotten pretty bad. My last episode, but I should've probably quit when the psychic was on. Also, the most logical explanation is clearly stumbling into the woods and dying of exposure. Why is that so hard to believe? Whether her death was accidental or intentional (or some combination), she was drinking and decided that she didn't need a dui. I went on google maps and even found the area I would've headed through. Also, it's exactly what I would've done had I been in her situation. This notion that she may still be alive is preposterous, and the odds of a psycho picking her up RIGHT THEN (cue "Riders on the Storm") is pretty far fetched as well. Her bones will probably turn up eventually, but may not be intact due to bear (and wolves?) in the area. I'm sure a lot of you listening to these increasingly ridiculous podcasts will disagree with me; it's like you all WANT there to be something more than there is (The police were involved! JESUS). Clint Harting and the forensic psychologist are by far the most sound people that have been on these...this John Smith guy is over the top and James Renner is a clown. Peace out.
Likely? I think the biggest mistake made in all of this is misunderstanding the likelihood of things happening. By far the most likely explanation, by such an enormous degree, is death from exposure/hypothermia resulting from leaving the scene of an accident.
Likely again... it's extremely unlikely any of us will spin out our car on a windy road at night whilst alone. It's much more extremely unlikely that you will be raped and murdered, even as an attractive young female. Multiply those together--that some one in a million murderer was in the right place at the right time to pull off an audacious crime with no witnesses or evidence in a small window of opportunity... not happening, sorry. What you describe is lightning strike likely. Hypothermia plus bungled police search equals probable outcome.
The timeline fits if you don't include the woman driving from home. And she is the only one who mentions an SUV. Yet this guy seems assume this woman is the one with correct facts. Why?
I think the first call that isn't on record but ppl listening heard then came across the second wreck that we know was Maura's car before anyone called or looked out
What if her car hit the back of the bus? I could see how the hood was damaged and not the light. Maura knew how to drive on those roads. She had been there time and time again!
Leelee Roper Maura was consuming alcohol. We have no way of knowing if she was intoxicated or not, but based on her history or drinking and driving it’s possible. I feel terrible for Maura’s family; I also feel bad for Butch Atwood. I’m sure his school bus would’ve shown obvious damage had it been involved in a accident. How would you feel if you were Butch Atwood or his wife, daughter, sister, friend? There is no reason to believe he harmed/murdered Maura. He didn’t have a criminal background; wouldn’t have a job driving a school bus if he had been convicted of any serious crimes. Sticking to facts only, Butch Atwood was driving the school bus home like he had been doing for years, he saw a woman he identified as Maura outside her vehicle. He stated she wasn’t bleeding but he believed she was under the influence. He offered to help her, she refused any assistance. He went home and contacted law enforcement. It’s a very sad case, but it’s not right to accuse someone of a heinous crime without any evidence at all.
could the thud heard be the SUV hitting the back of the car and the acceleration heard be the SUV giving gas in order to ram the car into the tree. all this/after SUV was seen nose to nose
Great pod cast I want to listen to it again to get the time lines straight. I was wondering does anyone know the make and model of the Saturn? I would love to read the manual and see what features the car had. I am wondering about a few things.
So many different Timelines, so many scenarios,truth is probably combination of few of those, and whole truth is buried deep deep in the rabbit hole, i hope This case Will be solved but after long study of This case, i think This is too deep...
Butch Atwood is the most probable suspect. I’m telling you it fits every angle. All the other theories have a magical Hollywood kinda left field vibe and it just don’t line up.
The car damage is not from a tree or snow bank. I witnessed that damage. By a car that has the same damaged as Maura. Look at lk an you will get that piece of the puzzle.
I have been catching up on all these podcasts. This one is a strange. So much contradictory information in this episode compared to all other stories. Also when you call out the illogical and contradictory information in this story, John Smith then changes adjusts his story. For example he says a police SUV was at the scene before she called 911, then you note, that logically she would either not call 911, or say, hey the police just arrived, at that moment he tries to then make am excuse and adjust the time line. NONE of this makes sense at all. Starting to question his authenticity after this one and his combative interaction Tim Westman in episode 16 was also strange behavior. Also he does not seem to know the ranks of police command yet he was a police officer? (I know you say that has been vetted but seems odd that he would not know that off the top of his head, he did not know if Cecil Smith was a corporal? He just says whatever, a cop knows the chain of command ranks just like military people do). Also do not understand why Fred wants to have the full interview from unsolved. com so everyone can see it unedited, but is unwilling to just come on the podcast and give the same information.... that is really strange, if you want to get certain information or quotes out there, then why not just say them again? For me something is off here with all of John Smiths comments, he is double talking, changing his story one second to another, talking way too fast, going all over the place, fumbling over his words, bringing in new weird information that does not seem to fit and has never been mentioned before.... Why would he never mention this version of the rag in the tailpipe before? Things are not adding up. A totally new time line after 11 years that no one has mentioned before, including John Smith? Bizarre! I am worried that he is trying to lead you guys astray, you have been on point with facts, and now you start to speculate and seem frustrated wanting to make leaps that may or may not be there.
I've never trusted John Smith beyond certain details. I always got the sense that he had some personal/local axe to grind with some of the individuals involved in the case.
So, If episode 18 was so positively commentaring, why being removed? I perfectly understant it's the absolutate prerogative of those who posted it, originally! By titling Crossing the Rubicon, there most be some logical editorial matters into that episode? I remembered seiing it on RUclips. But I was not there, yet. Too bad for me.
+Gayle D I get that they had to remove it for reasons, which is fine, bit it sounds like you heard it before it was taken down. can you give a brief rundown of the content? I know it was months ago by this point, and I'm not looking for anything super specific, but would appreciate just a brief explanation of what it contains
***** thanks! I was worried there may have been some important info or revelation or something in there, but it seems not. Thanks again for your reply!
I feel as if the officer might’ve told Faith Westman about the rag in the tail pipe to try and get an answer out of her or “jog her memory” so to speak about whether or not she saw where Maura went because I think in his mind it would make her think that maybe she’s suicidal, which would maybe put more urgency of the situation in faith or make her more forthcoming
Ask for usage records for 001 in days after the accident, it would take a couples days to repair taking it out of service. What if he knows the chief caused the accident and he was drunk, he definitely wouldn’t pass a lie detector test.... she wrecked or stalled out because of the rag in the tailpipe, picked up her phone, locked the car and started walking back to the store? 001 hit her & her car and all the rest is bs coverup! Friend @ scene with her and is just plain scared too talk?.. that explains some of it 🤔
Interesting point raised that Butch was the only person who witnessed the driver and in the dark so cannot be 100% certain that it was Maura. Did something happen to her before the accident and it was not Maura driving when the vehicle crashed? did Maura meet someone beforehand which accounts for that extra hour it took for the car to reach its final location (in the tv documentary the journalist and former US Marshall got to the accident site much sooner than the driver of the Saturn did🤔🤔
It sounds like the drunken chief got to the accident scene while Butch was parking the bus, put Maura in the car, experienced her manipulative, intoxicated pleading not to cite her for drunk driving. The Chief saw an opportunity and drove off with her before anyone saw, within minutes. Then car 002 shows up. If Butch had problems with a lie detector test it's because he saw the Chief and was afraid to admit it.
True, and who knows if he dropped her off somewhere for whatever reason and she went missing from THAT area
Why would he drive off with her? WTF
@@adamant5550 They always leave reality with their theories
I guess they believe Maura Murray had a car accident and then gets picked up by a killer cop
Interesting theory!
I've been listening to the Podcast and I'm so excited I found these videos! I'm going to be binge watching/listening to all of these for days lol! I'm seriously obsessed with this case!
Hollie Gjoen , you an all the rest of us chick
And about Butch. I have always bristled at the public accusations made, and at speculation that he may have harmed Maura. I've read plenty of reasons he almost certainly could not have been involved - the time frame was too narrow to allow for him, an ailing man of ill health and with obesity hampering his mobility, to in a matter of moments subdue, restrain, and hide/kill an elite, military-trained athlete a third his age; he lived with family; he called and cooperated with police (the polygraphs I won't mention; they're not evidence); his neighbors knew and saw him, driving a large and conspicuous vehicle. Now he's dead and without a resolution to this case, he could forever remain some people's proven-guilty suspect. That bothers me. To me, Butch has always shared with Maura the same cruel fate of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
John Smith, I'm curious to hear more of your opinion on this.
With cases like this you get people with all sorts of nutty theories. I don't he had anything to do with it either.
It's irresponsible to accuse anyone of harming Maura without more evidence being revealed than we have. I was convinced that Forcier did it (for about a day or two, anyway). Then I listened to another podcast where the hosts correctly pointed out that there is weirdness everywhere you look regarding this case! So my mind is open to all possibilities until more is revealed. It's certainly possible that this case will never be solved.
I agree...
@@miningcamper But that's how it is when you look at a case without evidence - all kinds of strange connections will evolve - you end up with circular patterns of thinking and you will end up nowhere...
Really excellent episode, the best of the series, IMO. I loved the back and forth questioning, cutting it down to the bone. I would love to see a physical timeline because there were a lot of details. I'm definitely gonna re-listen to this show a couple of more times. Appreciate you guys. Thank you Mr. Smith for your tremendous input!
I agree seeing a physical timeline sounds like a very good idea !!
Re Butch Atkins, it's quite possible he saw exactly what happened to Maura and he's afraid to tell. The same as Witness A, Karen McNamara was afraid to come forward about seeing the Police SUV #001 parked nose to nose with Maura's car. Rather than Butch having committed a crime against Maura, he's more likely the man who saw a police officer commit a crime.
What time were the two 911 call registered by the authorities ?
Something is amiss with the police.
And that whole town
Something is amiss with Maura she was on the road to ruin
The dog scented Maura having walked toward Butch's house. If that is true, Butch would have been backing his bus in driveway. Did he ask her to board bus again? Did his bus block view?
Did he go into house, to call police to distract his common law wife and the police. He returns to bus, to do paperwork, and Maura could have been on bus..??? If this is true, Butch has happened upon Maura, not once, but twice...................much too coincidental....
I'm so confused after watching "The Disappearance of MM". Cecil Smith says he was in SUV 001, however all witnesses say Sedan, 002.
Here's one thing I never hear mentioned, or discussed in any detail.
According to reports, and the missing posters, Maura's phone was a Sprint Samsung model SPH-A620. This is the phone that may have reportedly been seen and mistaken for a "man smoking a cigarette", per Mrs. Westman's 911 call. Mr. Westman, however, stated that he thought it more likely that it was someone attempting to use or charge a cellphone.
I've downloaded and read the entirety of the user's manual for this model of phone, and the only red LED on the phone itself is on the external display when the phone is closed and you have a missed voicemail message. In this case, the crescent-shaped LED (looks like a smile) below the external screen blinks red. I would think this blinking would be easy to discern, even if one only glanced at the scene from their window briefly, and would be difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette. The phone itself has no constant red light, ever. The only other red light associated with this model phone is either on the desktop or travel chargers, both of which require being plugged into a standard wall outlet, not a car lighter, so these weren't being used at the time. Perhaps she did have some sort of 3rd party charger for the car, but again, this light isn't on the phone itself, and would emanate from the plug, also difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette I would think.
I just find it odd no one ever questions this further, and if they did I never found it in my extensive reading.
+Alex C They mention this in an earlier podcast.
+Gabrielle Goodwin Actually they didn't mention this. And they addressed that on the latest episode.
I stand corrected.
+Ts0usermax I asked that very same question above. And, in more recent talk on this subject we did discover the phone itself can have a constant red light when charging. It's on one of the later episodes. I'm not rehashing that here.
One interesting thing on the account of the red light that I only found recently:
"I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was? He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger." notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/
I was always under the impression it was the other way around, and that Mr. W never thought it was a cigarette, and that he originally thought it was a cell phone charger.
+Ts0usermax "Perhaps she did have some sort of 3rd party charger for the car, but again, this light isn't on the phone itself, and would emanate from the plug, also difficult to mistake for someone smoking a cigarette I would think." And the further discussion is in the comments of episode 21.
There has also been an interesting point brought up on those particular Saturns having a red light on the dash. Though the angle of view may be questionable.
I also notice Gabrielle Goodwin's named just changed to David. Interesting.
Where is episode 18?
I think that chief was really driving the SUV 001 and he was drunk and he heard the accident call and he went to the scene, that road is dark as hell and she may not have trusted Butch so she took her phone and backpack because it had her ID and money in it and walked to get service which is why she locked her car and the cop accidentally hit her and thought he killed her and freaked out and I’m sure it was him or Cecil or whoever who canceled the call, put her body in the truck, the other cop he called (Cecil or whoever) staged her accident which is why Tim Westman saw “her” accelerated and hit the tree and then the Westman’s called 911 to report the accident. This is why Tim Westman is so adamant when he says he saw the car accelerate to the tree. I think Maura really may have hit that Petrit that night and that’s why FM came to UMASS and took out 4K to get her a new car and maybe Monday they were really supposed to get the car but FM said they would next weekend because he didn’t want it to be suspicious if MM got a new car the next day so FM probably said go park it somewhere away from here and next weekend we will get it. I think MM was so freaked out about staying there with her car she just left because she was scared and unfortunately met her demise by a piece of shit police chief that had absolutely no business driving or even being a cop at all. This may also explain why one of the psychics has said that MM was buried underground but was alive when she was buried, but if she was hit by that drunk police chief with the SUV 001 and he thought he killed her so he buried her but she was actually still alive and if that’s so then that’s sooooooo horrible. It would be even more horrible if that was done on purpose, but I really think the drunk bastard thought she was dead. I am so angry no one is saying anything about this because there’s clearly people who know. I believe that whoever made and canceled that first accident report either is directly responsible for her disappearance or knows who is. SPEAK UP ASSHOLES
That’s a bit of a stretch.
So what happened to episode 18? I'm sure you address it somewhere but I'm curious what happened.
I put my whole beliefs and truths that I had on this case behind me.. There are only two things I know about this case now... One: I care about what happened to Maura... And two: something stinks..there really needs to be an investigation external to the New Hampshire State Police!!!
+Douglas Adair The FBI has been involved from the start.
+Gabrielle Goodwin Too bad they've never been lead agency.
If I remember clearly on Helena Murray's blog there was discussion of how some officer or other went looking for Maura that night while driving an SUV and that Butch Atwood took his own vehicle and searched something called French Pond Road. It was years ago now but somewhere on Helena's blog there should be something about what official was driving the SUV.
And Maura's sister claims she found a pair of women's underwear, on top of the snow, somewhere on French Pond Rd. The police later said those underwear "didn't have to do with" Maura.
@@NonyaSmith really ?? That’s weird !
My heart breaks for the family, especially her dad. I think Renner is being tainted by his own history of sexual abuse, to be honest.
@Alissa That simply is not true. Especially when your perpetrator is a family member.
To add to last my comment, if there are unidentified fingerprints found and it calls into question the credibility that the woman seen by Butch Atwood and spoken to was not "100%" Maura Murray, couldn't a request be put in to involve the FBI. If the last verifiable and 100% credible sightings of Maura caught on surveillance was Maura at an ATM in Mass and a receipt from a liquor store in Mass, that would mean the disappearance really does span 2 states which means the FBI would need to be involved since the FBI covers interstate disappearance;s homicides; kidnappings, etc.
+Blair Ribeiro Miss, according to James Renner [he runs a blog about this case and will have a book coming out about it in a few months] the FBI were involved in the case from its earliest days and that Fred's assertion that they have never been involved is dead wrong!
This is important information which I hope Renner responds to. Thanks for this.
I hope he does, too! It really seems like something that could open up some new avenues of investigation.
Thanks for responding to me!
I get your point, but the woman Atwood spoke to was most likely Maura. The problem with high profile cases like this isn that you get people muddying the waters with nonsense, people going off in tangents etc. I doubt the police were involved in any wrong doing. This is a case of a distraught woman going missing, on a lonely back road. She wanted to sober up before the police arrived so she hitched a lift with someone she shouldn't have. It happens all too often, women disappearing this way especially hitch hikers.
Marie lav, you "doubt the police were involved in any wrong doing."
Oh , come on now. Listen to more podcasts. Even if they don't know what happened to Maura, their behavior is downright weird.
SHE GOT IN THE BUS!!! IT MAKES SENSE MORE THAT WE THINK ABOUT IT.
Butch Atwood was minding his own business coming home from work. He offered assistance to MM who declined.
It’s beyond unfair people continue to drag his name through the mud.
I’m really late to this game, but I wonder if anyone can tell me - was it discussed that maybe she rear ended the bus as the driver was stopped in the road? And that is why he backed it all the way up to his house so no one could see it until he was able to look at it in the morning when there is more light? I’ve seen cars totaled by running into the back of a school bus and the bus only had minor damage. And maybe that was the red light…a reflection of the bus taillight on her window or through the window. He asked her to get in the bus to warm up. And the rest is?
I commented too soon. She could have rear ended the SUV 001. Her Saturn hood could have gone right under the SUV bumper.
Was Butch a drinking buddy with this cop. Could this cop in the SUV have hit Maura & his drinking buddy helped cover it up?
But then you have to reason that this cop hit a drunk girl in a car and instead of charging her with the crime, it would have been easy after all Maura's car was loaded with booze, he plotted with a guy he had drinks with to have her murdered to cover up his crime.
This is an odd coincidence; I was just commenting about, essentially, this scenario. I've had to step back from MM because some players do their best to turn any and every thing into a cringeworthy Lifetime Drama. But over the years, I've kept up from a distance. Most of my Top Ten hypotheses, unfortunately, results in Maura being long dead. But I can't rule out the possibility that *a* vehicle came by right after the bus driver. Maybe Maura even tried to flag the car down, having the feeling that the bus driver didn't believe her lie about calling AAA, or maybe Maura (shaken up and slightly drunk) stepped out in front of an oncoming car. But in the time that the bus driver was parking (he didn't just pull in; he manoeuvred the bus to easily leave the next day), calling to his wife (or walking in, which was no small task for him), telling her to call the police, and then getting to his paperwork (in the bus), someone injured Maura and, seeing no one else around, took her into their car
The time where this podcast mentions the SUV and the Saturn being nose-to-nose when they passed by could easily have been the exact same moment a panicked, inexperienced LEO was making the decision to try to get the body to the nearby hospital themselves, and found after they had left that Maura was already dead, or was dying, and decided to just forget this ever happened, not call it in, and not continue on to hospital.
@@marielav9649 good point !
@@shirleybennett5946 another great theory, hard to really know the truth !
Whoa! My buddy wrote that Vice article. He goes to UMass now. (He's not connected to the case though -- he's from the UK, a separate country.)
I'm watching all you videos again from the first that I could find on maura. For some reason this still feels like it was yesterday. She went missing the day my son was born, maybe it was a mother's instinct that's kept me wondering about her.... Idk
I'm having a hard time believing all of what John Smith states in this episode...
that's because you have an IQ above room temperature
In relation to the part of this episode where Tim and Lance talk to John Smith about Rick Forsyth's personality, I disagree with their opinions thinking that Rick can't be a focused person as well as laid back in different areas of his life. Once again, if this has been discussed a lot, I am sorry. My brother would be the classic example of someone who is extremely focused in his studies and career but quite laid back in other areas of his life and knows how to relax. My brother is about to turn 29 next week and is just finishing his Masters in Neuropsychology. He has studied for the last 10 years and earned good marks, he was automatically enrolled in the Honours program for Psychology because of this. He also has managed to hold a good full time job at the university during his studies. He is extremely focused and knows what he wants. He is laidback in the sense that separated from this, he is really relaxed and not a lot bothers him. He is a skater and a surfer, while both these activities can take a lot of focus similar to Ricks hunting, skaters and surfers even when dedicated are know overall to be quite relaxed in personality. So I think that Rick can definitely be both as well in that sense, focused and serious in certain areas of his life while being relaxed and still focused for certain things in other parts of his life.
Maura could have been side swiped by an on- coming vehicle thus spinning her car around other direction. Her front right driver side looks like she took a hit from a truck bumper...
That's exactly what I was thinking. Specifically a raised truck.
Front right drivers side?
Yeah mayby a friend of cheif williams the raging alcaholic was the driver of this truck.
Can someone explain how the SUV Cruisier 001 passed witness A twice while heading east toward the accident scene? Seems non-sensical unless 001 is flying around searching for someone and witness A is driving really really slow. Sounds like the latest scenario is the police chief kidnapped her? Ugh.
+Savryn Myst I read somewhere that the SUV Cruiser #001 passed witness 'A' headed east, turned down a side road that witness 'A' drove past, then came back out and overtook witness 'A' again.
+Savryn Myst There are roads that branch of to the left (West) between Cottage Hospital and 112 off of Goose Lane, such as Cemetery Road, that connect back up to 112. The officer would have had to take one of these, then turn right onto 112, then overtake the witnesses vehicle again. Take a look at the map of the area.
+Alex C I was a little confused on that issue as well.Thank you for clarifying for those of us who are not from the area.
The reports made Rte. 112 seem desolate that night but now we know it was pretty well populated
Exactly, it’s literally a neighborhood.
This is my theory, which is to me the only logical conclusion. 1) Old dude in bus asked her if she is ok and she said yes.He asked her if he can call for help.She said no as she was probably drunk and didn't wanna get in trouble. Keep in mind that she got lucky a few days earlier and avoided a D.U.I. I'm sure she was aware that the odds of getting away with drinking and driving again where slim.2) She probably panicked and thought to herself, the old man driving the bus is probably gonna call the cops (which he did) and I'm gonna get in big trouble for drinking and driving. 3) In between the guy in the bus calling the cops and cops arriving at scene, she more than likely got into a car with someone else or run into the woods in order to elude the cops.4)I would assume that she got into a car with someone offering her a ride(probably someone closer to her age, because she probably trusted people closer to her age) That would explain why the tracking dogs suddenly lost her scent.Her scent was never tracked into the woods. The guy in this interview is full of shit.Isn't it known already that her dad told her to put rag in tail pipe? So why would this investigator (More like a conspiracy theorist) even remotely imply that the cops planted the rag in the tale pipe? Doesn't he know the girls father? Wouldn't he that the father told her to put the rag in tail pipe? So the car didn't hit a tree, but it probably hit a stationary object that caused damage to the hood? lmfao !!!! Sounds like she probably hit a tree.Why would the bus driver call the cops if he had something to do with her disappearance? There is nothing here people. She got into a car with someone and it more than likely ended up very bad for her.
+jesse sarmiento My real doubt in her hitting a tree began when I recently re-watched the WMUR (NH's news station) report on it just a few days later.
www.wmur.com/Feb-9-2004-Maura-Murray-Goes-Missing/13092800
There was no significant snowfall in the following days and judging by the video (shot starts at 0:17 in the WMUR video), at least to me, it doesn't appear a vehicle traveled through the snow into those trees. The trees surrounding the one with the bow can all clearly be seen (supposedly she hit the next tree down from the one that always has the ribbon according to Mr. Westman) in that shot as it sweeps over from the corner to the trees. I just don't see any tire marks or disturbed snow that far out, and certainly there would be some if it "bounced" off the tree as claimed. Just my observation.
+Alex C She never hit a tree she went into a snowbank. She hit a tree was just assumed by a reporter, but it's been know she didn't hit a tree from hour 1.
+Gabrielle Goodwin Since my last reply on this was deleted (and not by Tim and Lance, which I find very interesting), I'll repost it.
I don't think she hit the trees either, but someone should tell this to the eyewitnesses who are still adamant to this day that she hit a tree and the police who reported that there was "evidence at the scene indicated the vehicle...struck some trees" too.
Nonexistent?
I live close enough to the town where she disappeared that my local newspaper covers this. About a month ago the Caledonian Record reported that the FBI has been involved from the start of the case. This came out not long after her dad went public with a petition to get the FBI involved. I find it hard to believe her dad didn't know the FBI was involved. Of course they would have questioned him by now.
Solving this case basically comes down to literally 5 min if that because that's about the window of time from the bus driver talked to Maura and the police officer showing up. There was a window of about 5-10 min top where she straight up vanished. Crazy shit
That's why I feel like it had to be the bus driver, a le officer or someone who was meeting her up there somewhere because what are the odds that a random crime of opportunity person would have encountered her in that small window of time, it's a rural place. Maybe in a city but not in rural NH.
Losing my father at a young age I was 16 he was only 43 out of no where he was my best friend and the hurt and heartache is unbearable even now this was feb.14th of 2010 & as horrible as that is I couldn't imagine not knowing at all what truly happened to him I have a new out look on Fred I'm glad more stuff is being put out of why he did and does some things
I don't doubt your claims that you received positive feedback for the Crossing the Rubicon episode, but if you truly received little to no negative feedback, then how come comments are disabled for that video?
+Kyle Stair It was a joke, Kyle. We receive criticism for every episode. Cold suggested we disable comments for that video and we agreed, seeing that it became about everything but this case.
+Missing Maura Murray maybe its a New England thing or something but i picked up on the sarcasm right away when it was said I couldn't believe how many people thought u guys were some kind of lunatics who just dont live in real life and believed you were serious. Keep up the good work guys I know you seem to get a lot of slack and i dont think thats fair you are just two normal dudes doing something awesome that many of us are thankful for (but please for the love of god no more cold). Thanks again and Merry Christmas
+Missing Maura Murray Uhhh, it SO didn't sound like you were being sarcastic (and I'm a pretty sarcastic person). I don't mind having comments disabled when you're thinking you'll be getting a lot of troll comments, though!
Missing Maura Murray guys I enjoy these podcasts, but psychics??really? they're predatory charlatans. nothing more. what are your feelings about this?
The bus driver. There is something there. I yelled YESSS when you guys started talking about it.
I feel there's something there too.
+Sweet Suzy There is nothing there. He isn't physically capable. Plus he's the second person who reported this to the police as soon as he got home within like 10 minutes of the accident.
ScoutFinch713 , she wouldve danced around him, he lived with other females, she wouldve kicked his rear
I wish I had not missed episode 18. I found this series too late, I guess. :-(
+Auntie Didi Me too, do you know what ep 18 was about?
They didn't say much about it. I think they had some guy as a guest on the podcast and he caused some trouble or something? I'm so nosy though. It bugs me that I missed it, LOL.
The elephant story is about how the elephant is described differently by different people as they touch different parts of the elephant it's not about how large the elephant is. Other than that rant you guys have an awesome blog and I'm looking forward to watching the documentary as soon as it's available on Netflix or Amazon prime as I don't have any extra money to pay to watch. Keep up the good work.
Wow, had no idea about this case, thank You !
✝️🙏🏼✝️🙏🏼✝️🙏🏼✝️🙏🏼
In the "mind your own business" culture of New Hampshire, I can understand someone calling the police and then not watching the scene any longer. I don't see anything suspicious in Mrs. Wiseman finishing her phone call and then going about her business without watching the crash scene any longer.
It's not suspicious per se, it's just oh so convenient that nobody was watching when they should have been watching and here we are at 20+ years later.
@@tarik6990 It's only convenient if one insists that there had to be foul play happening. No one "should have been watching." There's nothing wrong with making a phone call and then minding one's own business.
@@VTPSTTU If an accident happened late at night essentially in my backyard, I would be watching.
@@tarik6990 That's your choice. To me, that accident wasn't in the lady's backyard. It was across the street. If I didn't see anything particularly concerning when I first looked, I wouldn't sit there watching. People regularly stop for a few minutes at a place across the street from me. The road goes to the town dump and the gun range. At night, the road is closed and gated, and people will stop there to check their phones or take a leak or whatever. If I watched everyone who stopped, I'd spend my whole life worried about what was happening across the street. If there were an accident, I'd call the highway patrol and go back to minding my own business unless there was something directly suspicious.
Hi Tim and Luke. Very interesting interview with John. And you are great interviewers, I might add. Thank you so much for all you do. But I have to tell you I AM confused about the timeline of events at the crash site. And I DID listen to your podcast the other day with 'witness A', Erin, and I realize she doesn't still have her phone records (if I remember correctly) from 2004.. That's where we'll get precise times from her cell phone call records, and the 911 call records. I know you guys do so much already......but have you made up and posted a timeline anywhere for what you've got so far pertaining to all known events at the crash scene? That would help so much to get a clearer pic.
I'm also trying to get my bearings as to what direction the cars were parked and so forth. So I'm guessing that they would all have passed the RED BARN on the right, took the curve and then there was the crash site on the right?? Wish I was more computer savvy!!!! And I'm talking about the first responders to the scene, whether it was the 911 caller, or the man in the bus or the first cop in the SUV who 'witness A' saw , already parked nose to nose with Maura's car, which had come to a stop pointing the wrong direction off the road in the snowbank. I've been so intrigued with this case since I happened upon a dateline video covering this story, Then I found your channel and all your extensive work you've done over the years. Thank you all for that. I believe you guys will help to get to the bottom of all this confusion, shoddy police work, cover-up......et al...and solve this sad case and find Maura.
Thanks again ~
EDIT
UH oh!! I think I may be even MORE confused than I think. I may have listened to 2 different podcasts with 2 different women. (Erinn and Witness A being 2 different ladies). So sorry.
And did you ever hear from Susan Champee to talk about the 2 bystanders???
What happened to episode 18?
also wondering, where episode 18 is ?
I think they said in a more recent podcast that the blogger they interviewed in ep 18 went on to say some negative stuff about this show, the listeners of this show, and the Murray family, so they pulled it.
Ugh and they said it was such a good ep!
@@Traci.Johnson.Francisco it’s about God, not a psychic , unless it’s from God ! Fine line
@@Michelina22 I don't understand your comment? Who said anything about a psychic???
Thank you for mobilizing !!
pathetic how some people inject themselves into the spotlight!
Love John Smith! We need a timeline up so I can process everything we just heard
Marie lav I think what it comes down to is the question:
1. Voluntary disappearance
2. Foul-play
What are the opinions here? And why...
At 43:07, if Faith saw this car wrecked on the side of the road, no way she didn't watch the whole thing unfold and to it's conclusion. It's late, it's an accident, you thought enough of it to look the 1st time... no way you're looking away from it and going to sit down and watch tv. You may walk off to tell whomever is in the house with you, or go get your glasses on, but you're coming back and watching it all play out. You just are. Aren't people nosy by nature?
Ok at 56:07, you state the same thing I posted about looking away from the scene.
I've been following this case and podcast for a while but I can't seem to recall if the following question has been asked. It came to me John Smith reiterated that "no one knows for sure" if the woman seen at the car by Butch Atwood was actually Maura. I combined this with the mention of the infamous and frustrating "rag in the tailpipe." So my question is, "has anyone ever tested the "rag in the tailpipe;" the tailpipe itself; the passenger side door; and or the hood/dented front part of the fender, for fingerprints?" If the person at the car who Butch Atwood met wasn't Maura or was someone "with or pretending" to be Maura, it's possible that Maura was abducted or hurt much earlier on in her trip and whoever did something to her staged the scene on 112. Their fingerprints or the existence of foreign fingerprints could be a good clue or maybe even open a new door for investigators. It could also broaden the search field if it can be determined that the whole area for where Maura is could be between the last time she was seen at the gas station and at the accident scene.
My apologies if this question has been asked before.
+Blair Ribeiro Did you know, Blair, that it has been shown that there is about 40 minutes or so that are unaccounted for? That is, people have figured out that if she left Amherst about 4:30 or so she would have been at the accident spot about 40 minutes earlier assuming she drove straight through. Therefore the conclusion is that she either stopped somewhere for a fair slice of time or was driving on another road somewhere before heading to whatever fate befell her at the accident scene.
John Avellar -That is really interesting information that I hadn't heard before. Is there any speculation about where else she may have been or at this point is the me anomaly
the only info that's been brought to light?
I've also wondered if it was actually Maura at the car. Everyone assumes she went missing from the accident. What if she went missing before that.
Personally, I think the simplest theory is usually what happened. She had an accident, she had been drinking, in a slightly drunk state, upset by the accident she ran into the woods and hid and probably died out there somewhere.
I agree this is the simplest theory and it has been mine since I first heard about this case. I think the fact that there are so many (at face value) odd details about this case has driven people to concoct wild conspiracy theories. I'd wager if we could rule out 3-4 of these strange details (a detailed and accurate timeline, whether or not there was a man smoking in car, knowing exactly why she left, and whether or not her car had been in an accident before) we'd have about 90% of the case solved.
I believe the police know where she is just my opinion,
I would say using common sense only and not by facts, she was the driver only because she has so many wrecks before this last wreck. Idk if she's a horrible driver, doesn't drive well during stress, or has an alcohol problem that causes her to drive so badly. But IMO, she was driving until we find more evidence that she wasn't.
the cop hit her ran her over responding to the call thats why they want release any of there investigation is my theory
Great episode. Witness 'A' saw SUV Cruiser #001 nose to nose with Maura's car and the other witness (Ms. Champie) saw Maura's passenger car door open and 2 bystanders. And all other witnesses missed this. UNbelievable. I actually feel physically sick. Keep pushing for the FBI to get involved.
Heck yeah of course. I mean if my child was missing I would police, psychics, whoever I could to get some answers.... I don't blame him... They of course are never always 100 percent but neither are most of the detectives who are supposed to be finding the people who go missing...
Could the 2 bystanders be one of the many volunteer firefighters who showed up from the meeting down the road?
That bend where she spun out is pretty damn sharp. If she was flying down that road especially at night I wonder if there were skid marks or maybe she wasn't going that fast. I don't know but it's a deceptively sharp turn left if you are careful.
Why do the episodes go from 17 to 19? Is 18 missing or deleted? Or is it an accident?
ok, this one has got me soo very confused, I listened to this several times to make sense of what Smith is collaborating, and it got me so confused....... I have been following the Maura Murray case and have papers out of the wooza with this case..
911 calls need to be released if not to the public, than to the family
Anyone know whether the family has been able to listen to the 911 calls?
What if they told the neighbors about the rag because it means something up there? 🤔
I wonder if the people in the red truck were waiting for Maura. Like it was planned to meet there. Then when she wasn't at that spot they went to the other. Then they went toward the accident and found her there.
Yes! This is nearly exactly what I think! I think the red suv was following Maura on purpose, it was part of the plan. I think her friends knew about it and it was planned at the party. I truly think Maura was drinking and did crash her car. She panicked and fled. Waited for the red truck (which she knew was close behind) and the rest of the plan continued.
Honestly, this theory makes a lot of sense. I believe the cops just lost her. Hence the police coverup.
The tailpipe rag? Seems clear to me that she must have had CAR TROUBLE and so followed what her father had always told her to do. Car trouble leading up to the accident, maybe for some time before something happened. Was that the cause of the accident, rather than drunkenness? Slippery roads because of the snow? Skidding with car trouble? I tend to think that she may only have been sipping alcohol rather than really downing it. A lot of it could have spilled? People might only have the impression that she was drunk when maybe she was not really drunk at all. After all she had travelled quite a distance hadn't she? Even if she had a coke drink smelling of alcohol, it may not have been that much alcohol in there.
Another thing is girl's can be very inexperienced drivers when it comes to long distance, especially if they are used to driving just around town and long distance driving can be overwhelming to a young person.
Trying to give Maura a little bit of credit because she seems to look rather sensible to me regardless of mistakes.
I would be interested in seeing the crime scene photos.
"Crime"?
A one-car vehicle collision scene isn’t considered a crime scene so there wouldn’t be any crime scene photos.
Apart from the psychic talk in the intro, it was a good episode.
Not the ones making money on suggestion to gullible people.
***** The ones who reveals it.
Would you guys consider using a remote viewer .Farsight Institute is cool .Dr C Brown
The likelihood that Butch did anything is really low... he didn't have time
Why haven’t we seen accident photos or heard the 911 calls. What can it possibly hurt after all this time to release those? In most cases you see that right away.
Because there were no accident photos and the 911 calls were never released to the public.
Guys,
What happened to episode 18???
I´ve been binge listening ALL episodes and really wish I could listen to it, specially now that I hear you guys commenting about the great response from the public.
=////
+Isabel Q. Yeah, where is 18??? Why was it removed?
One shout be careful with John Smith - you never know if he has an axe to grind with police in general...
Is he saying the police had something to do with her disappearance? Sounds far fetched.
I don’t think they personally killed her..I do think they botched the investigation and are possibly covering something up.
Dude knows NOTHING about EMS procedures. Maybe he should stop talking. The 911 caller said “she isn’t injured, just shook up.” I’m not sure why EMS was called out at all. Being on scene for 6 minutes is not unusual. They have no patient. They are not search and rescue (that is usually FD or DNR) if they find something, they can call EMS back. People who know nothing about EMS really shouldn’t speak about it.
This podcast has gotten pretty bad. My last episode, but I should've probably quit when the psychic was on. Also, the most logical explanation is clearly stumbling into the woods and dying of exposure. Why is that so hard to believe? Whether her death was accidental or intentional (or some combination), she was drinking and decided that she didn't need a dui. I went on google maps and even found the area I would've headed through. Also, it's exactly what I would've done had I been in her situation. This notion that she may still be alive is preposterous, and the odds of a psycho picking her up RIGHT THEN (cue "Riders on the Storm") is pretty far fetched as well. Her bones will probably turn up eventually, but may not be intact due to bear (and wolves?) in the area. I'm sure a lot of you listening to these increasingly ridiculous podcasts will disagree with me; it's like you all WANT there to be something more than there is (The police were involved! JESUS). Clint Harting and the forensic psychologist are by far the most sound people that have been on these...this John Smith guy is over the top and James Renner is a clown. Peace out.
Likely? I think the biggest mistake made in all of this is misunderstanding the likelihood of things happening. By far the most likely explanation, by such an enormous degree, is death from exposure/hypothermia resulting from leaving the scene of an accident.
S. Mansell Absolutely correct. It doesn't necessarily mean that is what happened, but it's by far the most likely scenario.
***** What really concerns me with some of you people, is how you can't seem to process information. It's fucking scary. And there's a lot of you.
***** This is exactly what i'm talking about...sigh.
Likely again... it's extremely unlikely any of us will spin out our car on a windy road at night whilst alone. It's much more extremely unlikely that you will be raped and murdered, even as an attractive young female. Multiply those together--that some one in a million murderer was in the right place at the right time to pull off an audacious crime with no witnesses or evidence in a small window of opportunity... not happening, sorry. What you describe is lightning strike likely. Hypothermia plus bungled police search equals probable outcome.
Anyone know where we can find episode 18?
The timeline fits if you don't include the woman driving from home. And she is the only one who mentions an SUV. Yet this guy seems assume this woman is the one with correct facts. Why?
I think the first call that isn't on record but ppl listening heard then came across the second wreck that we know was Maura's car before anyone called or looked out
What if her car hit the back of the bus? I could see how the hood was damaged and not the light. Maura knew how to drive on those roads. She had been there time and time again!
Leelee Roper Maura was consuming alcohol. We have no way of knowing if she was intoxicated or not, but based on her history or drinking and driving it’s possible. I feel terrible for Maura’s family; I also feel bad for Butch Atwood. I’m sure his school bus would’ve shown obvious damage had it been involved in a accident. How would you feel if you were Butch Atwood or his wife, daughter, sister, friend? There is no reason to believe he harmed/murdered Maura. He didn’t have a criminal background; wouldn’t have a job driving a school bus if he had been convicted of any serious crimes. Sticking to facts only, Butch Atwood was driving the school bus home like he had been doing for years, he saw a woman he identified as Maura outside her vehicle. He stated she wasn’t bleeding but he believed she was under the influence. He offered to help her, she refused any assistance. He went home and contacted law enforcement. It’s a very sad case, but it’s not right to accuse someone of a heinous crime without any evidence at all.
could the thud heard be the SUV hitting the back of the car and the acceleration heard be the SUV giving gas in order to ram the car into the tree. all this/after SUV was seen nose to nose
Why are these witnesses seemingly so confused?
At 50:38, has anyone confirmed what time she normally gets off work and how long it takes her to drive by that area on her way home?
Great pod cast I want to listen to it again to get the time lines straight. I was wondering does anyone know the make and model of the Saturn? I would love to read the manual and see what features the car had. I am wondering about a few things.
+Chris Davis 1996 Saturn SL2
Psychics are scammers. You lost me.
So many different Timelines, so many scenarios,truth is probably combination of few of those, and whole truth is buried deep deep in the rabbit hole, i hope This case Will be solved but after long study of This case, i think This is too deep...
Butch Atwood is the most probable suspect. I’m telling you it fits every angle. All the other theories have a magical Hollywood kinda left field vibe and it just don’t line up.
The car damage is not from a tree or snow bank. I witnessed that damage. By a car that has the same damaged as Maura. Look at lk an you will get that piece of the puzzle.
I have been catching up on all these podcasts. This one is a strange. So much contradictory information in this episode compared to all other stories. Also when you call out the illogical and contradictory information in this story, John Smith then changes adjusts his story. For example he says a police SUV was at the scene before she called 911, then you note, that logically she would either not call 911, or say, hey the police just arrived, at that moment he tries to then make am excuse and adjust the time line. NONE of this makes sense at all.
Starting to question his authenticity after this one and his combative interaction Tim Westman in episode 16 was also strange behavior. Also he does not seem to know the ranks of police command yet he was a police officer? (I know you say that has been vetted but seems odd that he would not know that off the top of his head, he did not know if Cecil Smith was a corporal? He just says whatever, a cop knows the chain of command ranks just like military people do). Also do not understand why Fred wants to have the full interview from unsolved. com so everyone can see it unedited, but is unwilling to just come on the podcast and give the same information.... that is really strange, if you want to get certain information or quotes out there, then why not just say them again?
For me something is off here with all of John Smiths comments, he is double talking, changing his story one second to another, talking way too fast, going all over the place, fumbling over his words, bringing in new weird information that does not seem to fit and has never been mentioned before.... Why would he never mention this version of the rag in the tailpipe before? Things are not adding up. A totally new time line after 11 years that no one has mentioned before, including John Smith? Bizarre! I am worried that he is trying to lead you guys astray, you have been on point with facts, and now you start to speculate and seem frustrated wanting to make leaps that may or may not be there.
I've never trusted John Smith beyond certain details. I always got the sense that he had some personal/local axe to grind with some of the individuals involved in the case.
These guys were never on point with the facts. They took Renner’s far fetched and totally dishonest narrative as law from the start.
where is 18? it is missing in Google play podcasts as well
So, If episode 18 was so positively commentaring, why being removed? I perfectly understant it's the absolutate prerogative of those who posted it, originally! By titling Crossing the Rubicon, there most be some logical editorial matters into that episode? I remembered seiing it on RUclips. But I was not there, yet. Too bad for me.
A famous case famous or mishandling is JonBenet.
Last comment, but someone here is lying. Someone is just not telling the truth point blank
Where is 18? Am I just missing it?
+Dan Da I can't find it either...
+Dan Da It has been permanently removed
+Missing Maura Murray why so? If you can say...
+Gayle D I get that they had to remove it for reasons, which is fine, bit it sounds like you heard it before it was taken down. can you give a brief rundown of the content? I know it was months ago by this point, and I'm not looking for anything super specific, but would appreciate just a brief explanation of what it contains
***** thanks! I was worried there may have been some important info or revelation or something in there, but it seems not. Thanks again for your reply!
I think Mr. Smith is about as good of an investigator as the local police and NH state police are police departments.
If you guys put this much effort into her after 11 yrs or so, why not focus on newer cases...
Three years of law enforcement experience is nothing….I had twenty-two years and I was still learning new things.
Where is part 18?
I feel as if the officer might’ve told Faith Westman about the rag in the tail pipe to try and get an answer out of her or “jog her memory” so to speak about whether or not she saw where Maura went because I think in his mind it would make her think that maybe she’s suicidal, which would maybe put more urgency of the situation in faith or make her more forthcoming
If witness A left her job anywhere in the center of town she would've definitely driven past the scene after Mrs Westman 911 call.....
After backing into that driveway on the bus. No sirens. He might not have noticed the blue lights of the suv..
At 30:13, how would he know a woman was driving in order for him to ask the couple "where is the girl who had been driving?"
butch told him
Why are so many comments shadowbanned?
the rag in the tailpipe sticks out to me, never made sense that she would do it.
dad told her to do that
Ask for usage records for 001 in days after the accident, it would take a couples days to repair taking it out of service. What if he knows the chief caused the accident and he was drunk, he definitely wouldn’t pass a lie detector test.... she wrecked or stalled out because of the rag in the tailpipe, picked up her phone, locked the car and started walking back to the store? 001 hit her & her car and all the rest is bs coverup! Friend @ scene with her and is just plain scared too talk?.. that explains some of it 🤔
What are all these secrets for?? Get it out in the open and move ahead.
The cops have a reason to lie this ppl don't have a reason that is really known as if know that has been shared w/ why I've watched and read
Interesting point raised that Butch was the only person who witnessed the driver and in the dark so cannot be 100% certain that it was Maura. Did something happen to her before the accident and it was not Maura driving when the vehicle crashed? did Maura meet someone beforehand which accounts for that extra hour it took for the car to reach its final location (in the tv documentary the journalist and former US Marshall got to the accident site much sooner than the driver of the Saturn did🤔🤔
If you look at the map of that area, witness A cannot be correct - there's no way the SUV passed her twice. It's impossible
Cecil Smith was driving SUV 001
He is f...... boring! He is not saying a shit but playing important...