For the record, I don't think it's fair to discount a random abduction (in general) . My best friend’s mother was abducted in 1997 in broad daylight in front of a police station. All it took was her locking her key inside her car and the psycho snatched her right there(they just found her body). They don't have to plan it, it's a matter of an opportunity. You are obviously allowed to have a different theory, but don't think that someone can't fall into that rare statistic of a random kidnapping by a serial killer. ._.
+LaneCormier I agree. This happens enough times. Think of Denise Huber. She had a flat tire and someone gave her a ride apparently. She was found years later in the guys freezer in another state. Think it happened in California and she was found in Arizona, only because someone thought the presence of moving van which had an electric cord running from it was in the guy's driveway to be suspicious. It had been there for a very long time which means a lot of people saw it, including neighbors and the guy's mother. No one questioned it or said anything until some paint customers of his did and notified police. Also, in my general area there was a disappearance of a young girl in the 80s. She was 17ish. Her brother and her ran out of gas on a road. He gets out and walks to get gas; she remains in car. When he came back she was gone. Her name was Leanne Green and she has never been found. They had a suspect who they think may have abducted her by pretending to be a cop but he never admitted to anything and he is now deceased. So happenstance is always possible. Murderers/rapists are opportunists after all.
+msvick66 Yep, but you can go the other way to and point to cases, such as the most recent disappeared episode about the stunt bike guy who went missing near a mountain. Family swore he would never harm himself and believed that he was still alive somewhere. Very recently they found his scattered remains at the top of a mountain he had been known to hike at. Now they haven't released his cause of death and frankly may not know for sure, but these kinds of things happen regularly as well and I would say more often then the scenarios described above. This guy was spotted sitting in an alfalfa field naked and then minutes later he was gone. A police officer approached him and had a conversation with him and deemed that he was cognitive and knew who he was and knew where he was and all that, and then once he went missing, searches were done very close to where the guy went missing which is also close to the mountain his remains were found on. Guess what, searchers (a nice size search effort/team) found nothing and no trace of him. Folks that go missing in the mountains, especially mountains they are familiar with, I just don't understand why people automatically jump to foul play. Maura was not just a happy-go-lucky college student at the time she went missing. Her two wrecks in the span of 48 hours speak for themselves.
+Clint Harting This is true too. I just watched that episode on Disappeared about the young man you mentioned. She was definitely not in her 'right' frame of mind it seemed. Maybe she could get pretty far by the time they searched and brought in dogs. It was awfully cold too. I guess it just seems like cadaver dogs should have found her body, but they are not fool proof. That's why this is such a compelling mystery I suppose. There are several plausible options.
Clint Harting makes the most logical sense of anyone I've heard on this podcast. He keeps on open mind about the case, but at the same time he doesn't buy into the very improbable theories.
I really can't wrap my head around the guy's rationale that no one could have taken Maura because it would be "too much of a coincidence." Exactly how does he figure people get abducted? She was vulnerable and in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's exactly how women go missing/are murdered every time. What does he think? That predators make an appointment? They're called "predators" for a reason.
In this case, dedicated FBI intervention is long overdue. A real probability here is that the NH police know Maura's dead, and have evidence that implies, but does not prove, such. Furthermore, 2/9/04's evening events likely infer to them that one of their own, or someone close to the NH DA's office, or both, is a suspect. The combination of the lack of a body, and the politics that surround the suspect, have created this seemingly unanswerable conundrum. For various reasons, state prosecutors, including NH's, are limited to taking on cases likely to be won. In the absence of a body, Maura's case does not fall into the "likely to be won" category. One must question if the NH DA's office has chosen to ignore where Maura's body likely is, in favor of protecting their own. I think in most of our guts, we know nefarious politics are involved, which is why we continue to press on, and should continue to press on . . . . Clearly, this is just wrong, for New England, or anywhere else in our country, regardless of whether the suspect continues to be in public service. This case absolutely mandates the need for FBI oversight.
Thank you so much Tim and Lance!! You guys are both doing a great job and I enjoyed listening to the other 2 (3) guys' input. And KUDOS to you all for not talking over each other!! I just found you guys, *MMM*, about 4 days ago, and I am totally hooked on this mysterious case and thankful for your professionalism and good information. There is soooo much differing info when I travel around the net looking for answers, tho!! No wonder it's such a tough case! Keep up the good work guys. You both have big hearts.♥♥
1:34:51 Clint Harting really connects the main points of the story here. Maura's life was in turmoil. She packs up everything at her dorm room because she's not coming back. On top of the boxes she leaves a printed email from her boyfriend confessing he's cheated on her. She withdraws nearly all the money she has from her bank account. She drives off to the White Mountains. At that point I believe she's suicidal and seeking the comfort of a much loved place to end it all. Her drinking while driving on the trip -- especially when a court has ordered her to stay out of trouble for six months -- shows a reckless disregard for her own life. When she crashes she has to improvise a Plan B. The most likely scenario from there seems to be that she died in the forest, either by taking pills or from the cold weather.
It was shown that it wasn’t “packed” up. She had just returned from break and a lot of clothes were still packed from being on break and she was progressively taking things out. If she was just running away to end it all, why did she bring her homework and school bag?
I appreciate Clint Harting's contribution to this discussion. He makes a great deal of sense. The convoy theory needs evidence to be credible. Unless someone can identify another person who was traveling in tandem with Ms. Murray and would have picked her up, that theory has too many holes to accept as the most probable explanation. If she wanted to disappear, she would probably want someone she trusted to be in the other car. The number of people who fit that description was fairly small. I haven't heard whether those people have been accounted for on that night, but I suspect that they have. I see no reason to believe that something that happened at the party would cause her to leave her entire life behind. I see no reason to believe that her wrecking her father's car would cause her to leave her entire life behind. If she was responsible for the hit and run accident near campus, I can see her making that decision, but I'd still need to see evidence pointing to her accomplice. While putting a rag in the exhaust may be something of a ruse, that seems a foolish ruse to attempt when the timing is so critical and people might be watching her. While the likelihood of an opportunistic killer or a serial killer was on that road, on that night, at that time is low, the likelihood of any particular crime is always low. Most Americans will never have an intruder, much less an intruder team, break into their homes, those things do happen. An intruder team broke into my home in 2018. Of all the places in the U.S. where they could have run out of gas, they ran out of gas near my home. The likelihood that they would be in my home on that night was tiny, but there they were. Because every outcome of this case is low likelihood, I don't dismiss this possibility. In that case, Ms. Murray making this trip and being on this road on that night was just one more in a long series of bad decisions. At the end of a long string of bad decisions, she ran into the wrong person and paid the ultimate price for those bad decisions. In that case, there's no reason to delve much more deeply into her life leading to that moment except to show that she'd fallen into a string of bad decisions. The idea that she had been drinking and was looking at a drunk driving conviction while on probation for the credit card fraud is plausible. In that case, she would have insisted that the bus driver not call the police. Believing that he was going to call the police anyway, she would have wanted to escape the area. She was fit enough to have gotten over a snowbank. If the night was really only twelve degrees, the snow might have been frozen solid enough that she wouldn't have left clear prints on the snowbank. If the night was above freezing, the snow crust might still have been pretty solid, and if she did leave footprints, a little wind on the snow could have changed them enough that maybe no one recognized them. The bus driver and his wife might not have noticed her as she came down the road if she came down the road. She may have run up one of those dirt roads. That they looked for tracks in the woods and didn't find them is an important piece of evidence, but it's not conclusive. She could have run into the woods at some point and become lost. She was experienced in the woods. She would have had a much higher chance of survival than many people would, but even experienced outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen get into situations that are too much for them and die. If she had been drinking, her outdoor abilities would be less than what she might believe. If she hit her head, she might be less able than she believed. The narrative that she hitched a ride with a stranger and then created an entirely new life on a whim is romantic but still not that compelling. In that case, she could eventually contact her father, and he would just quietly stop looking for her. The narrative that she hitched a ride with a kind stranger, was dropped off somewhere, and then met an opportunistic killer has the same strengths and weaknesses as the other opportunistic killer theory. If she was dropped off at a lodge somewhere, she would be more likely to run into a human predator. A human predator would be more likely to be stalking prey at a lodge, a bar, or a truck stop than randomly driving along a narrow highway at night. If a local person picked her up, I can see why he or she wouldn't come forward. A guy in particular would be an immediate suspect. While telling police where he (or she) left Ms. Murray would bring police a step closer, this person might decide that the hassle from the police and public wouldn't be worth the feeling of doing the right thing by advancing the investigation to where she was dropped off. This person could self-justify by saying that someone at the lodge, bar, or truck stop would have the obligation to say that Ms. Murray was there on that night. In many ways, I feel that this case has a huge amount of information that is completely irrelevant. Finding a solution may depend on sifting out the irrelevant information. No one seems willing to do that.
Around 1:36:00, talking about the way Maura left her dorm room. Her 'single' room was actually a double but bc there were more beds than students, some were lucky enough to have a room to them self, Maura being one of them. So there was actually 2 beds- one with the boxes *still* stacked from the holiday break, and one to sleep in.. The students must leave their keys and expect people in their room for cleaning and inspection so the students have to either box things up ( to keep those people out of their stuff) or take everything home. It was such a short period of time, 11 DAYS, that Maura and the other students were back from break , so it is entirely possible that her things were STILL in the packed boxes from before holiday break. ((Hell...my clothes are STILL not unpacked and I've been back from vaca for over 3 months now!!! lol )) And all this info comes from another student that KNOWS this, and said all this on another podcast with Lance and Tim. So it makes perfect sense to me. I hope Clint, James and John are aware of this by now. One less thing to wonder about!! Thanks again Tim and Lance!! Great job.
At 1:01:16 in the podcast, Renner states that there was a municipal map of Killarney Ireland found in Fred's house that he says, "...you could only get by visiting Ireland..." Is it really not possible to obtain a map of Killarney without going there to physically get one? I would think getting my hands on a map of just about anywhere on this planet would be fairly easily done without physically visiting the specific location. Heck… Fred could have gotten it from a friend, or a junk store, or just about anywhere. It feels like a very leading statement by Renner in at attempt to steer listeners the the conclusion that Fred made a trip to Ireland. What verifiable proof does Renner have of such a trip? There may well exist concrete proof and Renner may have that, but clearly, possession of the map alone would not be enough to prove it.
This isn't Hollywood, James. This isn't a script. We aren't limited to one coincidence. There are billions of people in this world, many of them have very unlucky coincidences, many are very lucky. And she may have had these unlucky circumstances come upon her because of bad decision making... drinking and driving on dark roads being one example.
Some one picked her up the 100ft away from her car where her scent stopped. And no one was following her up there one of the witnesses would have seen them.
The reason the cops won't release the ATM surveillance footage is likely that they would prefer for the public to have as little information to work with as possible. Cops have thin skin and would be embarrassed if amateur sleuths solved the case before they did. One thing we can be sure of is that if a hiker one day runs across Maura's skeleton, some fat fuck detective with an big ugly mustache--who is at the moment likely shoving donuts into his face and doing next to nothing on the case--will make the rounds of the true crime shows, getting teary-eyed as he says, "I made a promise to that girl that I would never give up until I brought her home!"
I'm not sure if comments are still monitored, but does anyone know what type of shoes she was wearing and if they were different from her normal shoes? ultimately i guess it wouldn't matter, but if she were wearing hiking boots vs tennis shoes, or slipper, it seems more likely she was planning on going in the woods - im sure all of this has been hashed out before, im just curious.
Growing up and living in rural New Hampshire i think foul play should be heavily considered but a body not saying human but I've seen a deer killed by coyotes and in the same spot the next day you will only see blood and hair, especially in February if the winter has been rough the coyotes will find a body in a few hours
I'm going to throw another theory out here. A bit of a long shot, but what if a passing motorist accidentally hit Maura while she was walking on the side of the road, not being able to see her in the dark. They panic and not wanting to leave evidence behind of the hit, pick her up and drive off. Not likely, but I thought.
+Pasic TP I didn't say it was a motor cycle. I said motorist. Anyway, just a theory. But, I really believe she was running from police because she may have been drinking and for whatever reason got into someone's car or was forced.
i believe Maura was abducted as she was accepting a ride from a stranger waiting by the car or walking away from the scene. The abductor doesnt HAVE to be a serial killer. i dont believe she committed suicide or ran away.
I dismissed James Renner at first because some people said he was a bizarre hack journalist. Now, I agree w/his conclusions: Maura wanted to run away, start a new life & she succeeded. Probably with the help of Kate & Sara. Probably w/the help of two college guys. And maybe w/Fred's help, even though I'm not sure. I feel the party at Sara Alfieri's was a planning meeting, not a wild orgy. There were only a few people. Maura announced her intentions to escape & they planned the details there. She pulled it off, probably to escape Fred & Bill. Either Fred knows everything & is lying or wants to know where she is & hopes the police (who know) will tell him.
You have a point there if the police do know where she is and she doesn't want it known I think the police would have to honor it. However they would not have gone to all the trouble in 2019...
@@therrienmichael08 they would not pretend there was an investigation that had to be protected to hide her. They would say we found her but she doesn’t want to be contacted by anyone and we cannot reveal her location. They wouldn’t just pretend they never found her and leave the case open.
David Paulides - former police officer - one of the top researchers in missing persons cases - considers many possibilities as to why people go missing - commits to none. From what I know of him, he is very dedicated; and, you would be hard-pressed to find someone more knowledgeable on this topic. Great work as always - C.S. - FL.
+Tammy Ihnken I was wondering that myself. Could be there is no new info. on the case, or they are really busy with family/work and just don't have the time right now to put together an episode. Your guess is as good as mine. Thanks for the reply - C.S. - S.FL.
+Ts0usermax You probably know more about him than I do. If he was forced to quit the police force due to what you say, he should have to face an appropriate penalty. As far as him considering the bigfoot abduction possibility above other explanations - we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Thanks for your reply - C.S.
Paulides, in my opinion, is exploiting stories of people who have gone missing for personal gain and asserting fantastical, unfounded conspiracy theories that promote his own agenda ( selling books). I have listened to many interviews with him and he constantly contradicts himself, repeats details incorrectly, alludes to magical nonsense that he doesn't have the balls to just say outright (big foot/aliens stealing hikers) and displaying his profound ignorance on the part of medical science and forensic investigation. I take anything he says with a grain of salt. The fact that he is a former law enforcement officer does not make him credible or unimpeachable.
I wondered if anyone knows what Fred's work schedule was like the days prior to going to take Maura shopping for the used car. I can not tell you the amount of times my work schedule would have hindered my ability to get to a bank during operating hours. Although I never have been blessed with an account balance which ATM withdraws could exceed the ATM limits, my ex-boyfriends father made a significant amount of money and would take the entire family on yearly vacations where he would send us to several ATMs to withdraw large amounts of money, even if he had time to pull it out ahead of time, he kinda got a kick out of letting us feel like we were doing him a little favor as a way to thank him. It was a yearly thing, he knew the entire trip, he would have a big group of honest and grateful teens-young adults who were more than willing to do any errands that could interfere with his vacation.
1:36:36 - I kind of agree about this. IF MM was just walking away from her life (not necessarily to commit suicide), then I could totally see this being the case, where she'd make it easier for her family to collect her things. So let's say she did hit that guy with her car, or was just so stressed she wanted out. So rather than straight up tell her family, who pushed her very hard to be successful, she packed her things, made an excuse to the university to buy some time, and headed off to the mountains for a bit of a break and a wallow before finding some city/town to restart in. I mean, there's more than one way to walk away from your life. Some people move across the country on a whim, some people pull a Gone Girl... I think it's possible MM would have just looked for a way out of her current situation that minimized the fallout she would have to deal with personally. But also, nursing is a VERY busy major. I took a lot of classes with nursing students when I was getting my BFA, and it seemed like they caught more Zs in the lobby of the Nursing floor in the science building between classes than in their own dorms/apartments. Plus, they pulled incredibly long hours between work, class, studying/homework, and time at the hospital. So I could totally understand if she just wasn't unpacked yet and just shifted the boxes around as she needed to.
new person here, I am hoping there is going to be a podcast focusing purely on the witnesses at the crash site. Sometimes opinions are dismissed on the fact that there were so many eyes on Maura but for me not enough focus on the fact she disappeared right there. What were the chances all the witnesses were looking away at the same time and what exactly did they not see?
I also still don't believe it was the 911 dispatcher who inferred a "man smoking a cigarette" based on the description of the red dot alone. In an interview with blogger "Samuel Ledyard", Mr. Westman states that at first both he and his wife thought it was a cigarette at first. So, I think more than likely it was the caller who said this, and not the dispatcher's embellishment. notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/ "I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was? He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger."
+Alex C So every actual reported account with quotes from the Westmans will actually show that they never said a man was smoking a cigarette in Maura's car, but you take an account from someone who is not even a reporter and didn't even use actual quotes, just paraphrased a conversation he had with the westman's and used his notes. How is that account reliable?
+Clint Harting Short answer is, "Yes". "Ledyard" could very well have been outright lying, but I don't believe that to be the case, personally. I've never really believed the Westman's account of that night was all that accurate to begin with. I feel, given the evidence at the scene and weather reports from that week, etc., that the car never hit a tree, and Mr. Westman has always been adamant about the supposed fact that it did. So the "fluidity" of the "man smoking a cigarette" statement doesn't surprise me. Does it mean anything to the greater importance of the case? I doubt it, but I make note of it.
+Alex C Did it ever occur to you that Mr. Westman went outside that night and in the subsequent days and would've seen first-hand if damage had been done to a tree near his property. He apparently did go outside that night, if one account is to be believed, because he went across the street and unlocked his store (the weathered barn antique store) so Cecil Smith could see if Maura broke in and was hiding out. We don't just have to assume that Mr. Westman only guessed Maura hit a tree by looking out his window in pitch dark after she wrecked. He would've went out the following day and looked as well. I know they (and I believe it included Mr. Westman) discovered Maura's footprints in the snow bank where she wrecked.
When going through training for call intake at a 911 call center, there's very specific direction to transcribe exactly what the caller is stating. If an operator says "caller states....." Then the words following came from the caller. The Westmans have agreed they made the cigarette comment, and then changed their account. I'm sorry, but Clint needs to review the training guide for 911 operators. I respect his theory, but I do not agree.
I have been following this case for some time now and I just wanted to throw some things out there. if these questions have all ready been asked I apologize. ok so I read that dogs who were trained to smell flesh were taken to the triangle house and that they went crazy. I also read that two carpet samples were taken and sent off and no info has ever been received on them. are either of these true? If so has anyone ever went back to search the triangle house again and tried to get samples or maybe even fingerprints or has the triangle house been ruled out? I was also wondering was the car fingerprinted? If so when? Could that be something to have done again or is it inaccessible?
+sybil v Dogs were taken to an A-Frame house on Valley Rd. and they did go "Bonkers" allegedly over some carpet in a closet. Samples of the carpet were cut out, but no one seems to know what exactly happened to them. The cynical side of me is very skeptical about this whole search. It had nothing to do with the police and IMO was a search done orchestrated by the family to try and make police look bad (like they aren't doing their job, so we have to do it for them). IMO, of course they were going to uncover "something." The media was alerted ahead of time about this weekend search. Again of course they were going to find something IMO. To me it was a dog and pony show from the start.
"...IMO was a search done orchestrated by the family to try and make police look bad..." In this entire case, the police are doing a bang-up job in looking bad without any outside help!
@@clintharting2221 where is blood samples from a frame house closet? She was kept in closet? Then moved in spring? Her body will not be found? Mountain? Just dumped? She was at a frame house partied all night with girl and guy. She left scene accident? To avoid d.u.i. how the hell? She gets into a vehichle???? Not seen passing by cop responding to crash site? No neiighbor? Saw ? Why did not her waite in warm school bus? Her keys out of car? Cant prove dui
I love this podcast! Tim and Lance were great as always. However, the guest made me feel very uncomfortable. I felt like they were attacking the family. And Also felt that they have never been a young college girl, I have. I hope in the future they invite that young woman that helps them out to be apart of the conversation.
+Pasic TP Harting, I felt like all he did was attack the family. I have learn to ignore Renner, if I was a member of Maura's family I would talk to Renner either. In less, someone can prove beyond a doubt that the family is covering up something, I think they should back off. This is our hobby, it is their life and loved one, they can never walk away from this.
+St. John the Baptist Maybe if Smith would have been there, it would have been more balanced. But a lot of assumptions were being made about this young woman's behavior that as a woman myself I think are wrong. I don't care how well she knew the area, if it was dark and she was alone, Maura would have been afraid. Why can we throw doubt on witness A but everything the bus drive said is the gospel. And when I was in college, I would blow of school and standing in a program to do something fun! Lots of college kids do all the time. Again, I love this podcast but I found myself screen at my iPod on this one. I think when it comes to safety, men and women live a different reality. And was Maura mom sick at the time? She is going to leave her sick mom? I think a woman's voice or a man that has raised some daughters would have helped this podcast be balanced.
+Pasic TP Listen, I think Renner is an ass, I shut him out whenever he says anything. I was actually listening to Harting, which is why I felt uncomfortable.
+Pasic TP I don't expect people to ignore either. However, what is the "wrong behavior". I watch these missing and true crime show all the time. I never imagine that something like that will ever touch me. I do know what I would say or do if it did. What if in my grief and fear, I said something wrong? I don't want people saying she's in on it. I just think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. I feel like we have given that benefit to everyone else in this case except the family.
Maybe Fred banked at like a credit union or something and was not able to visit the single branch to pull the money out before he visited Maura. My husband buys motorcycles from private parties and it would not be usual for him to hit multiple ATMs to get the cash if he was not able to hit the bank. Many banks have odd hours and close at like 4PM.
I enjoyed listening to this. I missed the input from John Smith and I am so sorry he couldn't make it. I still believe she is somewhere in those woods. I believe she did go in at some point and I don't think she could have made it through the night. She was cold, her feet probably wet and freezing, I don't think she could have made it far. If you did have a time at your disposal to estimate and even experiment the maximum distance she could have traveled in any direction under her circumstances that could give you a pretty good circle to search in. Take in modern gps tracking and search every single degree in 360° circle in the estimated maximum distance. It will take time, it will be rough. But once somebody does that, we could finally say she did not enter the woods.
+Branko Petek Totally agree. I think it's hard for some people to imagine how thick with trees, brush, undergrowth, leaves, etc., wooded areas can be, and how even intact bodies can go totally undetected, even within areas that have been previously searched.
It seems that it happens often enough that searches do not turn up bodies and that dogs miss them too. Think of the Jameson family. 3 people and wasn't it something like 4 years later they were discovered about 3 miles from where the vehicle was found? The little boy Michael Henley (I think that was his name) disappeared from a camp. At one point people thought he was the little boy bound and gagged in the infamous photo that has been speculated to be Tara Calico. Later his body was found in the woods not too far from where he went missing and appeared to have been there the whole time. Another was the experienced older woman hiker who went off trail to use the restroom and ended up getting lost. They searched for her extensively and much later her body was found in a tent along with a note from her when she realized she was dying. Unfortunately, it's very possible that her body is out there and just has not been stumbled across as of yet.
To address one point: Was it really the family who put suicide out there first? In the press and news reports the first mention of her being potentially suicidal was in the press release by Haverhill PD on 2/11/04. Here's a link to that press release: drive.google.com/file/d/0B0THHDpHRXYgWDZlUHdYRlBJZ1k/view?usp=sharing "Murray is listed as endangered and possibly suicidal at this point." And there was also an article written back in 2004 on just this topic. The family wanted to clarify who made that remark first, and they said it was Haverhill PD who first put that out there as well. I know Clint thinks the family did some back-pedaling, but is this part of that, in your opinion? projectjason.org/forums/topic/350-missing-woman-maura-murray-nh-02092004/page-2#entry2640 "Murray and Rausch are upset about comments made this week by New Hampshire State Police Troop F commander Lt. John Scarinza. Scarinza pointed to a book by Nicholas Howe, "Not Without Peril," as a possible source of why Maura disappeared. The book was among items found in her car. In the book, there are stories about tragedies and rescues in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, areas in which Maura and her father had hiked. Scarinza has said Murray told police his daughter was suicidal. However, the first mention of Maura being suicidal was in a press release issued by Haverhill Police Chief Jeff Williams two days after Maura's car accident and disappearance. Murray says he never told police his daughter was suicidal."
+Alex C You're right if you blindly accept the spin that family have created concerning suicide. The first mention of suicide came on Feb 10 during Fred's 911 call as he attempted to get a hold of Cecil Smith. "Fred Murray called back and said officer has not gotten back to him. (911 dispatcher) told Fred that officer had the message and was sure the officer would be calling Fred back. Fred stated "IT'S URGENT THAT OFFICER SMITH CALLS HIM. Fred had some very important information to give him. Fred asked 911 dispatcher if Smith had a cell phone. 911 dispatch replied "Negative sir, but I will give Officer Smith another message" Fred replied "PLEASE DO, IT'S VERY URGENT THAT OFFICER SMITH CALLS ME." In 2012 James Renner interviewed the lead investigator in Maura's disappearance. The Lead investigator referred back to that 911 call Fred made and what was said once Fred finally got a hold of Cecil Smith. "What I was told was the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, She has gone to the North County to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old Sqaw," said Lt. John Scarinza. Scarinza also added this nugget "I've said all along: My sense is that Maura's original intent when she left UMASS was to come to the North County to get away from something that was occurring in her life down there. I TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE FAMILY'S THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS COMING TO KILL HERSELF. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here. My sense is that she is not still alive."
so either the lead investigator of the case is flat-out lying, or the family is putting serious spin on what actually occurred concerning how suicide talk entered the picture. It has to be one or the other and I know logically that it makes no sense for the officers to be making this whole thing up. By the time Fred called police to tell them his daughter had come to their area to do personal harm to herself, the Police wouldn't have even been speculating one way or the other whether or not the driver of the car was suicidal or not. In fact when Fred called, not much had even happened yet concerning the investigation
+Clint Harting Scarinza's and Haverhill PD's accounts haven't always meshed. According to Renner, Haverhill PD told him there was no alcohol missing from the car, and that it was all accounted for. In a comment made after that post (the same one you reference, actually), Scarinza stated alcohol was missing, so I'm not sure they were ever on the same page entirely. I'm also not sure Scarinza was ever "lead investigator" either, I've heard that was Det. Todd Landry. Scarinza was just commander of Troop F of the NHSP. In that interview, as you said (and he is quoted), Scarinza is only relaying what was told to him, and he heard none of this firsthand.
+Alex C A Haverhill officer not assigned to the case told Renner that all alcohol was accounted for. That does not mean that literally the officers have every bottle of alcohol in a evidence storage room somewhere. It means they collected a receipt from Maura's car and know exactly what alcohol Maura bought that day. Lt. Scarinza was lead investigator of the entire case. He was briefed from his own officers and UMASS police as well but Scarinza was in charge.
This may have been answered before, but is it possible that the damage on the windshield was caused by debris from the airbag being deployed and not her head? Has anybody looked at the damage pattern for that model airbag in that car? I think recent news would indicate that these devices are quite powerful.
I enjoyed this episode. I love hearing the points of view. I will be honest, while I am interested in Renner's research there is something about him that rubs me the wrong way. I don't think he is a bad guy but something I can't put my finger on bugs me
+Emily Walker Same here. I do appreciate the fact that he's worked so hard and produced a lot of material for the case. I think it's what seems to be a lack of self-awareness that tends to cause problems. He criticizes or attacks people who don't respond the way he wants them to, and attributes bad motives to them constantly. For example, Fred Murray isn't obligated to speak with him. Maura's friends aren't obligated to speak with him, much less share personal details with him, and there may be any number of understandable reasons why not. Instead of being empathetic and seeing things from others' perspectives, though, he either takes it as a personal affront as though he's entitled to all their details, or he thinks they're up to something sinister. It's gotten pretty ridiculous in some instances, and I have to say it has really diminished his credibility with me because all he does is editorialize based on this very skewed and self-centered point of view, so it's hard to trust what he reports. There were several instances in this very podcast where what he claims is directly contradicted by others' accounts and/or questioned (thank goodness) by the other members of the discussion. It's a shame, since he clearly has a strong interest in the case and the ability to theorize and gather information.
Unlike the other researchers who focus on leads and try to actually investigate, he focuses on attacking people who won’t agree with his weird conclusions.
Renner gets on my nerves so much. He's obsessed with the case so much it's sick. Anyone who doesn't speak to him or doesn't say what he wants to hear is hiding something or lying. Literally Fred could grant him an interview and explain to him all his doubts and he still wouldn't believe him, because it wouldn't fit his theory. No wonder no one wants to talk to him, he's like a sleezy Rita Skeeter, who pushes and pushes and pushes people. If I had disappeared during my college years and people looked into my life, chances are they would make up crazy assumptions about why I left. And sure as fuck my mother wouldnt grant a guy like James any information.
I would more guess the police does not release the video because either (a) there was more than one person in the video, (b) they don't wanna run the risk that a third person spots something on the video that they oversaw (c) privacy reasons with regard to third persons that do obviously have nothing to do with the case (d) maybe there was something about Maura that they deem has nothing to do with the case?
To me the mystery will never truly be solved unless Maura is found alive. Maura may have left UMASS with the intention of running away but got into the accident which threw a wrench into her plans. Maura may have also just planned on taking a mental break for week but again got into the accident which threw a wrench into her plans. Unless Maura is found alive we will never know why she left UMASS. My point being the reason why Maura left UMASS could be completely irrelevant to why Maura disappeared. I personally believe that Maura was a victim of a crime of opportunity but until she is found I am open to others opinions.
I think there is a distinct lack of empathy on this podcast. Maura seemed like a good person, who certainly had a few problems. But I think it's lost on the people here that she is somebody's daughter, somebody who was loved, and somebody who is missed. It seems like it's just a bit of casual fun to these guys, something to have a chat about with a few beers on a Friday night. But this is a reality for her friends and his family, not just something to gossip and speculate about. And I find it ridiculous for you to suggest that the fact that the family would not speak to you is some reason to think of them as "acting suspicious". On one of the podcasts you referred to her as a sociopath, without any real justification for doing so. I can absolutely understand why nobody would related to Maura Murray would want to speak to either James Renner or the podcast (for facilitating him).
I have listened to every episode. Forgive me if people have already made this point I'm about to make....I know others have suggested that she could have been picked up by a stranger (aka a local dirtbag) and murdered by them. I know each theory has their good points and bad points and that the bad points to this one have been discussed. But one thing I realized when I was listening to this episode was that, IMO, I feel like we can rule that one out by allowing me to expand on this theory and why it isn't likely. That guy with the bus (Butch Atwood??) had JUST asked her come with him and she turned him down immediately. So, we know she was very capable of saying no. So, putting that piece of information together with the point someone made on this episode about how unlikely she could have been taken by force (i.e. time limitations and nobody heard or saw a scuffle), I think it's really unlikely she would have turned Butch down and then taken another total stranger's offer only minutes later. If she was going to go with some random stranger, she would have gone with Butch Atwood. Which makes me think that if it she did leave with someone, it had to have been someone she knew. I put myself in her position and I really think that's the only likely "someone picked her up" scenario. I did allow my mind to consider that I probably would go with a police officer. I could see myself turning a stranger down but if a cop pulls up or an off duty cop pulls up and says: "Hey! You wanna get in my car to keep warm?", I might do that thinking that there would be no way a cop would hurt me.
+Ann Daniel Yeah, this is a pretty common line of thought, and makes sense. But MMM have discussed it a few times, pointing out that Butch Atwood was a great big guy and perhaps intimidating-looking. Or, more likely IMO, since he offered to call the police and (by some accounts) indicated to Maura that he was going to call the police, she wanted nothing to do with all that since she'd most likely been drinking. The last thing she'd want is a DUI, especially since all the recent upsetting problems with driving (probably while impaired) and her legal problems after the credit card fraud at UMass. JMO. So anyway, just because she turned down Butch doesn't necessarily mean she would turn down someone else. Especially if it meant getting away quickly, before the police arrived. If I were Maura, I'd be wanting to get away from there as soon as possible, no matter what. (I do think it possible that a cop picked her up, although I feel she most likely fled and perished in the woods.)
+Andrea Gardner I remember those points and I totally agree with you (which I think is everyone's frustration/fascination with this case...just as someone comes up with an idea, it's very easily shot down). I even thought as I typed that..."Well, if she really was drunk, she's probably not want to go with a cop." However, this episode was the first time I recall someone ever saying that Butch *insisted* to her that he was going to call the cops even though she asked him not to/said she already had. I don't recall the story ever being framed that way and that could very well be my memory. Up until that, my understanding was that she turned him down and said she had already called the police and he kind of just slinked away only to come to the realization as he was getting closer to home: "Hey, she probably couldn't have called the police because of the lack of cell phone service out here, so I'll just call anyway." I can totally see the line of thinking that she would want to get as far away from the accident as possible if she was trying to flee. And, perhaps, the reason of her turning Butch down was less because of his appearance and more because he lived so close and her intention was to get as far away as she could from the scene of the accident because she had been drinking. I guess there's a slim chance another stranger (who could be her killer) pulled up moments later and offered her a ride to another city. That could also explain why she left so much stuff behind....she had the offer, had to get the necessities and get away quickly.
+Ann Daniel I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I believe she refused to go with Butch, because she wanted to get out of that area so that the police did not find her. Since Butch lived close by and he mentioned calling the police, she probably believed that she would get into trouble. She may have thought her chances were better either by getting a ride from someone else who was driving through the area or by running out of the immediate area and hitchhiking a couple of miles down the road.
+Ann Daniel Yeah, I tend to agree with you there, too, that it probably was that he lived right there and she suspected he would in fact call police. I doubt it had to do with his appearance. Totally conjecture on my part, though.
has anyone ever looked into the supermarket? she had bags from a local supermarket right? supermarkets have security cameras even in 2004. maybe someone followed her from there? or maybe she went up the road and was abducted outside the search radius?
She's a runner. Emotional turmoil to say the least. lying. self hate/guilt same as dad. she hit that guy (dents on the driver side for it fit). irrational, mindfulness racing, cant concentrate. Everything is getting worse. too many rabbit holes get attention ignoring all the important behavior testimony. that coner is the shapest one in the google map as u look above. I think she was flirting with the the suicide thoughts. missed the corner and that was the straw that finally broke it. turned lights off on car. she put the towel in the tail pipe.done. if the bus driver didn't stop her she would of sat there. cops called. now she has to flee, dui. choice made for her. she was flirting with self harm after the hit and run. the cops called sealed it. shes a runner. doubt she even got a lift that night. maybe had something with here pills/pocket. ran high up to do it far from site. Hope I'm wrong. maybe she let the weather take her. its easy to do with alcohol in your bloodstream. sad. i hope I'm wrong.
+Darin Zadina Nearly exactly what I've been thinking as most likely scenario. Poor Maura. I think it would have been pretty easy to succumb to the elements if that's what she made her mind up to do. If she did have alcohol with her, even easier. I hope she finally found peace.
+nat 5271 Not necessarily (looking at other cases). I haven't set foot in the area I'll admit. although vast, dense woody mountainy. everyone has a personal philosophy to life. skaters, surfers. mountaineers, hikers like her. an avg cross country race is 3.1 miles. she's in decent shape still. plus. I think that girl had lots to run from/off. agree? pure speculation by me. she tripled that and then some (adds up to lots of sq miles). the book and maybe that chapter/story in the book mark with her brothers pic is very inturging.
Hey Darin...Your previous comment said "... I think that girl had lots to run from/off. agree? pure speculation by me. she tripled that and then some (adds up to lots of sq miles). She may have been a track star and have great endurance...barring injuries, of course. But...you most likely sat there in your house in the month of May and wrote out your comment. Meanwhile, you forgot all about the fact that back on Feb 9, 2004 where Maura was, the temp was a low of -2 degrees with a high of 13 degrees. I'm talking WAY below freezing!!! So it wouldn't really matter if she were a track star or not,, me thinks! Poor girl~
James has bee the only person to try to uncover the truth.. And he spent five yrs doing it. He doesn't demonize the family. They all have treated him bad. They should be thanking god someone was trying to fig it out...oh wait, they aren't, bc they know she is alive..too much evidence he found.
One thing I don't understand is if she ran away, changed Her identity etc, and Her family knows, then why draw attention to the case? Wouldn't they just let it be?
Is it true that the book Not Without Peril, by Nicholas Howe was also found in Maura's car? Have you guys considered doing an episode on the Seventeen Magazine article (it has quotes from friends and family)?
I see all 4 commentators have their pictures in the zoom at the end of the video. I like the views of the gent who sounds like a texas/southern accent.
Am I the only one who thinks James Renner's theory of a "tandem driver" makes no sense? If Maura planned to kill herself she wouldn't invite people along. Her friends were back at UMass if she wanted companionship. If Maura wanted to clear her head for a few days and asked someone to join her they would have gone in the same car, not one car following the other.
Don't understand the fixation on the money. If Fred used a regional bank in eastern MA it is likely that there were no branches in western MA or CT. If he didn't want to write a check, then he would have to max out the ATM limit to get the cold cash he needed for the car. Also, packing your stuff at the end of the Fall semester at UMass would be unusual in my experience a few years earlier. You would only be required to clean out after the spring semester or if you knew you would not be back. It's not like anybody came into your room to clean it or anything. You just went home for Christmas and came back 4 weeks later.
+Tim O'Connor I haven't put much thought at all in the withdrawls Fred supposedly made, because I really do think they were car shopping that Saturday. However, I know my bank which I have been with for over 20 years, puts a daily limit on how much money you can withdrawl which is like $600. So it wouldn't matter how many ATMS you went to, the most amount of money you can take out in one day is 600. At least that is how I understand it. I have never tried to test that limit though.
+Tim O'Connor Yes, I totally agree with you. That's all of the people in my dorms did with the exception of people who put in a request to move rooms at the end of the semester. We had that option at my college and it could only be done at the end of the semester.
+Clint Harting If you don't mind me asking, do you think/suspect there was a pressing reason as to why the car shopping had to occur that weekend? An urgent reason, even? I understand if you wouldn't want to explain WHAT reason that could be. I tend to think so, and that it has a lot to do with why she left, and would explain a whole hell of a lot of what happened. I enjoy listening to your perspective and ideas so I thought I'd ask.
+Andrea Gardner Very hard to say. I am 50/50 on whether or not Maura had anything to do with the hit and run that took place that Thursday night. A rush to get another car and get rid of Saturn seems logical if her car was involved. And she would likely breakdown and get a hold of her father whom I could see taking charge of the situation and swooping into town the morning after a large snow storm to go out and get Maura a different car. But then I can see the other side of things too. There is nothing concrete that ties Maura to the hit and run and therefore putting her at the scene of it is pure speculation and I try to stay clear of speculating when it comes to this case, because there is just so darn much of it already. I know for a fact the victim of the hit and run doesn't want answers as to whom hit him and I also realize that the chances of police ever figuring out who hit him are very slim to likely not even something they are considering anymore anyway. So where does that leave us?
Both fred and kathleen said in the first couple of weeks they both thought maura had committed suicide. Those news articles can be found on john smiths website
The atm stills were totally inconsequential, meaning they could have been released with zero damage to any type of investigation and Clint makes excuses for law enforcement here.
I feel like this is just one of those cases where not having a resolution causes all of these theories to spread and, in the end, it may one day be discovered that what happened was nothing as dramatic as the theories. I don't mean to say that a person dying is not dramatic but I just dont see anything pointing to foul play. Considering the trouble she was in I think its clear she had personal problems and I think its likely they were the cause of her death. It would be quite a coincidence if in those circumstances, and on top of everything, she had that crash and then met with foul play. It could also simply be that she crashed because she was drunk so she didn't want to have to deal with the police and later got lost.
...didn't somebody in the family already spill the beans the same day they were shown one piece of evidence they were supposed to keep quiet? Why would the cops trust them with ANOTHER piece of evidence when they clearly can't follow instructions?
+Sheri Martin I know what you are referring to. The family was doing a good job about keeping the rag in the tailpipe a secret, but someone else (likely a volunteer fireman that was on the scene of Maura's wreck) went on a message board and talked about the rag. Because rag was being talked as a possible suicide attempt, the family felt the need to go ahead and go public with that information to try and refute the suicide talk. The family consulted their own private investigators before doing so and got the OK from them to go ahead and start talking about the rag in the tailpipe.
I would like to here more about what the boyfriend knows. The 4,000 dollars isn't that big a mystery it's been explained. Jenner thinks Fred gave her the money to take off. Why not just come out and say it? Not only that but he claims Fred didn't withdraw that money. Well here is the issue with that statement it would take you some time to take out that much money because you can only withdraw 300 at a time. I really think her dad was just trying to help her and I don't think it was just about the car. No one really knows for sure, that doesn't make Fred a liar either. I'm under the assumption that Jenner thinks Fred knows she was taking off that he has been dishonest from the start. I can understand that something's don't always make sense like her wreck and the accounts we heard. It's been 20 years there is no way anyone would stay gone that long and never talk to their family again. Is it possible? Yes. If you don't want to be found. But I just don't think that's the case, I really don't think she's alive.
I just heard the part about the knife and A frame house at the end of this episode. I just wonder if maybe there isn't something there. I wonder is the house vacant?
What about 001 didnt butch call for a unit to come out there she neva said she saw maura just the weird spin out the units went out & she was gone within 10 minutes what was her point! Whats with the discrepancies? Dey didnt stumble upon her after taking the call we all know that
"Not like she could have jumped over the snow bank"- coming from a guy who has claimed that he scaled a sheer dirt embankment in a panic (See: True Crime Garage, ep 22). I mean, how perfectly smooth and slippery is this snow bank that MM couldn't clamber over or through?
If she had done that, wouldn't there be evidence of it in the snow? OR was it so could that the snowbanks were frozen solid?..IF the snow banks were frozen, wouldn't she have slipped & fallen...again leaving evidence in the snow?
Phone last pinged where, she shut it off as soon as she wrecked? She would be trying to call someone or head for the highest point to get a signal. Especially if I weird guy was trying to get her to go home with him period!
+ Clint Harting So then is there any truth in the idea that the owner of the A frame house's brother took Fred Murray a knife? how about fingerprints on the car? Just thoughts I couldn't get out of my head.
+sybil v Yes that part is true. But once again, police have never been involved with that. Fred attempted to take the knife up and turn it over at the glass window to a dispatcher, but he was told they couldn't accept it there. So fred mailed the knife to police. (Again I am skeptical) if this was a legit clue in a possible murder, police would've been highly interested in that knife and the father of the supposed murdered child, I highly doubt would be careless enough to stick such an important clue in the US Mail. On the car: I am not certain, the car sat unlocked and accessible to anyone for over two years before police took back custody of it. My hunch says they never attempted to lift fingerprints off that car.
+Clint Harding I would think that fingerprinting the car would be of importance. If dogs had her scent 600ft passed the accident site(which I read was sort of in front of Butch Atwoods house) then they lose it. I would think that means that she got in a vehicle. I wonder what the chances are that the dog just lost the scent at 600ft and she just kept running down the road. I read law enforcement waited 36 hours before searching that direction. Then did it snow enough or anything to cover up her tracks from 36 hours before if she went up the 600ft and then dipped off into the woods. Thank you for responding me.
+sybil v The dog losing the scent where it did is not surprising at all according to the actual person who was handling the dog. They only estimated the dog (before the search even began) would be able to track for about 100-yards or so and that is exactly at the point where the dog lost the scent. Too much time had passed, the cold temperatures and cross-winds were going to make it very difficult for a scent-trail dog to be able to follow scent very long. The only real fact they gained from the search was that maura initially started east when she left her car.
I love this podcst, and i love you guys and John Smith and everyone trying to help this case.. Buti have to say, James Renner is an idiot, all the baf stuff he said about Mauras family can never be forgiven..
Could it be a possibility that all of it was staged? Possibly she had already disappeared. There is no footage of her in the store no one on the scene that spoke to her knew her personally. Who says it was really Maury Murray? The voicemail her boyfriend received no one spoke it was silent. Someone else could have easily searched for cabins and emailed her professors. Someone else could have made the silent phone call. Someone else could have created the accident to make it appear it was Maury. Her friend stated Maury did not even tell her about the previous wreck. Why wouldn't she? Why make a point of stating that? Possibly the person that got picked up from the scene was not Maury because she was never there. Could be someone dressed like Maury and in her clothes. Just a opinion and thought.
How dare you mock David Paulides. Have you even researched what you're poking fun at? But here you are obsessed with a person who probably just ran away. I thought I found y'all interesting. But mocking something you know zero about true colors shine through. I have followed David Paulides for years and can promise you something is almost supernatural going on. Why don't y'all stick to what you are good at.
+Tammy Ihnken That theory that she ran away to start a new life is absurd, quit living in your conspiracy fantasyland, so she ran away to abandon her friends,boyfriend and family to start a new life rather then at worst case scenario spend 6 months in jail for a DUI wreck and leaving the scene of an accident without injury or death. Her criminal past are you kidding me....somebody who stole some money on a credit card once and with a bad driving record is hardly a career criminal. Her choices were wreckless at times yes.. but are common for many young adults and hardly those of a master criminal. We arent talking about some ex CIA agent here. If she did start a new life somewhere what would her motive be .....to avoid a few months in jail ??? They are people who change their identity who are wanted for very serious crimes who have had great financial connections end up turning themselves in or are caught because it is very hard to do this day and age even if you do have connections. She was either kidnapped or the victim of a hit and run where someone hid the body which i think is very unlikely.
Lol....began a new life. This girl didnt have her shit together at all...no way would she be able to start a new life and not be discovered. Maybe u think she is some secret CIA agent as well... You have watched way too many movies. She was most likely kidnapped not by a serial killer but by some random guy who wanted to take advantage of her and saw the opportunity. All evidence supports she was most likely kidnapped . She wasnt convicted in that first dui. The idea that she took on a new identity is ridiculous. Maybe u can join James Renner in looking behind trees and and alleyways in Canada. You conspiracy theorist crack me up. Face the facts....she was most likely raped,murdered and killed.
+The Chercheur The neighbors reported seeing several cars pass between the time she was talking to the bus driver and the time the police arrived to find her car. The dogs picked up her scent in the road and then it stopped in the road and not on the side of the road or into the woods. Combing those 2 facts with the fact that she has not been seen or heard from since and no body has been found is plenty to argue my case. Of course nobody knows this as fact ( except the killer) but the evidence certainly points in that direction. As far as pushing my theory around that was the whole point of these podcast videos....to openly discuss what may have happen to her and why.
I think it could be a possibility she was hit by a car but then taken somewhere but that seems unlikely..never heard of a hit and run where the body as taken
Going back and listening to that part of it reminded me of something important. Police have always said that Maura WAS ALONE at the atm. So any speculation about there being someone with Maura is pure false! And for the hearing impaired, it was black eye what I said. Folks who like to get super creative with the facts about the case and turn this into an Agatha Christie mystery, have long speculated that maybe Maura had a blackeye (Like from Fred) and that is why police didn't want to release the footage because Fred was a big time suspect. Silly if you ask me.
Hey Clint... I wanted to ask you about the blood hound thing. As far as I understand the dog was able to pick up the scent for a while, and then lost it right were it would have been perfect for her to be picked up by someone. Not talking abduction though, up the in air for me, but after crashing the car it would make sense to try and flag someone down right? All theories still stand after that though, suicide could have taken place somewhere else (not that I am totally on board with that theory yet), which would make sense I think, since committing suicide in the middle of nowhere would be quite difficult I think, since you have very little to do it with.
What you have to understand about the initial dog search was that the dog's handler knew going in their dog was only going to be able to track for 100-yards in any direction. The dog made it right about 100-yards and lost the scent at the very point the Rt. 112 meets up with Bradley Hill Rd. So the intersecting roads is likely what caused the dog to lose the scent. But the only fact established by the dog handler that day was that maura took off in an eastwardly direction from her car. That is the only fact the dog handler was able to make. the rest is pure 100 percent speculation. Now, I believe it's still possible Maura got a ride out of the area, but I don't automatically just assume something bad happened from it. The telling detail to me is that it is believed maura only took alcohol and her backpack along with her keys and phone from her car. She left her clothes behind and she left her valuables (necklace, stuffed animals, sentimental items). If she didn't get in a car, then you are talking about someone alone in the White Mountains with alcohol and nothing else. to me not many good conclusions can come from that. BTW, Maura wasn't in the middle of nowhere, the White Mountains were her favorite place in the whole world.
As for luck....according to Christian orthodoxy, people living within the laws of God or grace are protected from the dangers and bad fates that may have Befallen them.otherwise....and vice versa... Maura would be having bad luck for 2 reasons....1. She was really messed up in her decision making for the past 1-2 years because she never gained the skills to stop and cope....2. From everything that has been said....she was not nurturing a Christ-like life and thus was not protected by God's grace from meeting up with EVIL..(One reason why true Christians sometimes seem to have a glow and seem to "walk through fire" without ill effects)...(Reason to go church, people.)
I don't think a serial killer. As there aren't many murders there, I think someone stumbled across her & thought this is a good opportunity for them to take advantage, They might of never done it before or done it again after that, We never know, Hopefully one day we will
For the record, I don't think it's fair to discount a random abduction (in general) . My best friend’s mother was abducted in 1997 in broad daylight in front of a police station. All it took was her locking her key inside her car and the psycho snatched her right there(they just found her body). They don't have to plan it, it's a matter of an opportunity.
You are obviously allowed to have a different theory, but don't think that someone can't fall into that rare statistic of a random kidnapping by a serial killer. ._.
Denton, TX?
jclaunch00 Yep :/
+LaneCormier I agree. This happens enough times. Think of Denise Huber. She had a flat tire and someone gave her a ride apparently. She was found years later in the guys freezer in another state. Think it happened in California and she was found in Arizona, only because someone thought the presence of moving van which had an electric cord running from it was in the guy's driveway to be suspicious. It had been there for a very long time which means a lot of people saw it, including neighbors and the guy's mother. No one questioned it or said anything until some paint customers of his did and notified police.
Also, in my general area there was a disappearance of a young girl in the 80s. She was 17ish. Her brother and her ran out of gas on a road. He gets out and walks to get gas; she remains in car. When he came back she was gone. Her name was Leanne Green and she has never been found. They had a suspect who they think may have abducted her by pretending to be a cop but he never admitted to anything and he is now deceased. So happenstance is always possible. Murderers/rapists are opportunists after all.
+msvick66 Yep, but you can go the other way to and point to cases, such as the most recent disappeared episode about the stunt bike guy who went missing near a mountain. Family swore he would never harm himself and believed that he was still alive somewhere. Very recently they found his scattered remains at the top of a mountain he had been known to hike at. Now they haven't released his cause of death and frankly may not know for sure, but these kinds of things happen regularly as well and I would say more often then the scenarios described above. This guy was spotted sitting in an alfalfa field naked and then minutes later he was gone. A police officer approached him and had a conversation with him and deemed that he was cognitive and knew who he was and knew where he was and all that, and then once he went missing, searches were done very close to where the guy went missing which is also close to the mountain his remains were found on. Guess what, searchers (a nice size search effort/team) found nothing and no trace of him. Folks that go missing in the mountains, especially mountains they are familiar with, I just don't understand why people automatically jump to foul play. Maura was not just a happy-go-lucky college student at the time she went missing. Her two wrecks in the span of 48 hours speak for themselves.
+Clint Harting This is true too. I just watched that episode on Disappeared about the young man you mentioned. She was definitely not in her 'right' frame of mind it seemed. Maybe she could get pretty far by the time they searched and brought in dogs. It was awfully cold too. I guess it just seems like cadaver dogs should have found her body, but they are not fool proof. That's why this is such a compelling mystery I suppose. There are several plausible options.
Clint Harting makes the most logical sense of anyone I've heard on this podcast. He keeps on open mind about the case, but at the same time he doesn't buy into the very improbable theories.
Couldn't agree more.
Agreed. I'm a big fan
Well said. He's the most level-headed person involved with this case IMO
Well said. Harting has clearly done his homework and his theory as to what happened to Maura is the most plausible one, by far.
Agree Walt Dongo
I really can't wrap my head around the guy's rationale that no one could have taken Maura because it would be "too much of a coincidence." Exactly how does he figure people get abducted? She was vulnerable and in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's exactly how women go missing/are murdered every time. What does he think? That predators make an appointment? They're called "predators" for a reason.
This episode ought to have been called "when assholes collide", kkkk
In this case, dedicated FBI intervention is long overdue.
A real probability here is that the NH police know Maura's dead, and have evidence that implies, but does not prove, such. Furthermore, 2/9/04's evening events likely infer to them that one of their own, or someone close to the NH DA's office, or both, is a suspect. The combination of the lack of a body, and the politics that surround the suspect, have created this seemingly unanswerable conundrum.
For various reasons, state prosecutors, including NH's, are limited to taking on cases likely to be won. In the absence of a body, Maura's case does not fall into the "likely to be won" category. One must question if the NH DA's office has chosen to ignore where Maura's body likely is, in favor of protecting their own.
I think in most of our guts, we know nefarious politics are involved, which is why we continue to press on, and should continue to press on . . . . Clearly, this is just wrong, for New England, or anywhere else in our country, regardless of whether the suspect continues to be in public service. This case absolutely mandates the need for FBI oversight.
Plus how can a 21 year old girl do this on her own... i believe she commited suecide.
I don't recall having heard Clint speak in this case but to date, he's made the most sense. I guess because it aligns with my own thinking....
+Pasic .Rare bird sighting
Thank you so much Tim and Lance!! You guys are both doing a great job and I enjoyed listening to the other 2 (3) guys' input. And KUDOS to you all for not talking over each other!!
I just found you guys, *MMM*, about 4 days ago, and I am totally hooked on this mysterious case and thankful for your professionalism and good information. There is soooo much differing info when I travel around the net looking for answers, tho!! No wonder it's such a tough case! Keep up the good work guys. You both have big hearts.♥♥
1:34:51 Clint Harting really connects the main points of the story here. Maura's life was in turmoil. She packs up everything at her dorm room because she's not coming back. On top of the boxes she leaves a printed email from her boyfriend confessing he's cheated on her. She withdraws nearly all the money she has from her bank account. She drives off to the White Mountains. At that point I believe she's suicidal and seeking the comfort of a much loved place to end it all. Her drinking while driving on the trip -- especially when a court has ordered her to stay out of trouble for six months -- shows a reckless disregard for her own life. When she crashes she has to improvise a Plan B. The most likely scenario from there seems to be that she died in the forest, either by taking pills or from the cold weather.
i agree. packing up her shit in her room tells me she is not coming back.
It was shown that it wasn’t “packed” up. She had just returned from break and a lot of clothes were still packed from being on break and she was progressively taking things out.
If she was just running away to end it all, why did she bring her homework and school bag?
I appreciate Clint Harting's contribution to this discussion. He makes a great deal of sense.
The convoy theory needs evidence to be credible. Unless someone can identify another person who was traveling in tandem with Ms. Murray and would have picked her up, that theory has too many holes to accept as the most probable explanation. If she wanted to disappear, she would probably want someone she trusted to be in the other car. The number of people who fit that description was fairly small. I haven't heard whether those people have been accounted for on that night, but I suspect that they have. I see no reason to believe that something that happened at the party would cause her to leave her entire life behind. I see no reason to believe that her wrecking her father's car would cause her to leave her entire life behind. If she was responsible for the hit and run accident near campus, I can see her making that decision, but I'd still need to see evidence pointing to her accomplice. While putting a rag in the exhaust may be something of a ruse, that seems a foolish ruse to attempt when the timing is so critical and people might be watching her.
While the likelihood of an opportunistic killer or a serial killer was on that road, on that night, at that time is low, the likelihood of any particular crime is always low. Most Americans will never have an intruder, much less an intruder team, break into their homes, those things do happen. An intruder team broke into my home in 2018. Of all the places in the U.S. where they could have run out of gas, they ran out of gas near my home. The likelihood that they would be in my home on that night was tiny, but there they were. Because every outcome of this case is low likelihood, I don't dismiss this possibility. In that case, Ms. Murray making this trip and being on this road on that night was just one more in a long series of bad decisions. At the end of a long string of bad decisions, she ran into the wrong person and paid the ultimate price for those bad decisions. In that case, there's no reason to delve much more deeply into her life leading to that moment except to show that she'd fallen into a string of bad decisions.
The idea that she had been drinking and was looking at a drunk driving conviction while on probation for the credit card fraud is plausible. In that case, she would have insisted that the bus driver not call the police. Believing that he was going to call the police anyway, she would have wanted to escape the area. She was fit enough to have gotten over a snowbank. If the night was really only twelve degrees, the snow might have been frozen solid enough that she wouldn't have left clear prints on the snowbank. If the night was above freezing, the snow crust might still have been pretty solid, and if she did leave footprints, a little wind on the snow could have changed them enough that maybe no one recognized them. The bus driver and his wife might not have noticed her as she came down the road if she came down the road. She may have run up one of those dirt roads. That they looked for tracks in the woods and didn't find them is an important piece of evidence, but it's not conclusive. She could have run into the woods at some point and become lost. She was experienced in the woods. She would have had a much higher chance of survival than many people would, but even experienced outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen get into situations that are too much for them and die. If she had been drinking, her outdoor abilities would be less than what she might believe. If she hit her head, she might be less able than she believed.
The narrative that she hitched a ride with a stranger and then created an entirely new life on a whim is romantic but still not that compelling. In that case, she could eventually contact her father, and he would just quietly stop looking for her.
The narrative that she hitched a ride with a kind stranger, was dropped off somewhere, and then met an opportunistic killer has the same strengths and weaknesses as the other opportunistic killer theory. If she was dropped off at a lodge somewhere, she would be more likely to run into a human predator. A human predator would be more likely to be stalking prey at a lodge, a bar, or a truck stop than randomly driving along a narrow highway at night. If a local person picked her up, I can see why he or she wouldn't come forward. A guy in particular would be an immediate suspect. While telling police where he (or she) left Ms. Murray would bring police a step closer, this person might decide that the hassle from the police and public wouldn't be worth the feeling of doing the right thing by advancing the investigation to where she was dropped off. This person could self-justify by saying that someone at the lodge, bar, or truck stop would have the obligation to say that Ms. Murray was there on that night.
In many ways, I feel that this case has a huge amount of information that is completely irrelevant. Finding a solution may depend on sifting out the irrelevant information. No one seems willing to do that.
I must say, I don't always approve of Renner's methods, or agree with his suspicions and conclusions, but the guy is hilarious. Very witty.
Stay on point. Go back to the crash, and focus, focus
Around 1:36:00, talking about the way Maura left her dorm room. Her 'single' room was actually a double but bc there were more beds than students, some were lucky enough to have a room to them self, Maura being one of them. So there was actually 2 beds- one with the boxes *still* stacked from the holiday break, and one to sleep in.. The students must leave their keys and expect people in their room for cleaning and inspection so the students have to either box things up ( to keep those people out of their stuff) or take everything home. It was such a short period of time, 11 DAYS, that Maura and the other students were back from break , so it is entirely possible that her things were STILL in the packed boxes from before holiday break. ((Hell...my clothes are STILL not unpacked and I've been back from vaca for over 3 months now!!! lol )) And all this info comes from another student that KNOWS this, and said all this on another podcast with Lance and Tim. So it makes perfect sense to me. I hope Clint, James and John are aware of this by now. One less thing to wonder about!!
Thanks again Tim and Lance!! Great job.
I loved this podcast, you guys are all so Amazing to put all these years diving into Maura's Case. I wish that someone could Crack this Case.
At 1:01:16 in the podcast, Renner states that there was a municipal map of Killarney Ireland found in Fred's house that he says, "...you could only get by visiting Ireland..."
Is it really not possible to obtain a map of Killarney without going there to physically get one? I would think getting my hands on a map of just about anywhere on this planet would be fairly easily done without physically visiting the specific location. Heck… Fred could have gotten it from a friend, or a junk store, or just about anywhere.
It feels like a very leading statement by Renner in at attempt to steer listeners the the conclusion that Fred made a trip to Ireland. What verifiable proof does Renner have of such a trip? There may well exist concrete proof and Renner may have that, but clearly, possession of the map alone would not be enough to prove it.
This isn't Hollywood, James. This isn't a script. We aren't limited to one coincidence. There are billions of people in this world, many of them have very unlucky coincidences, many are very lucky. And she may have had these unlucky circumstances come upon her because of bad decision making... drinking and driving on dark roads being one example.
My current feelings about this case:
1- It may never be solved.
2- If it is solved, the truth will be a shocker to all.
Some one picked her up the 100ft away from her car where her scent stopped. And no one was following her up there one of the witnesses would have seen them.
Where is Clint from that he can't pronounce Monaghan even after being corrected? 😂😂
The reason the cops won't release the ATM surveillance footage is likely that they would prefer for the public to have as little information to work with as possible. Cops have thin skin and would be embarrassed if amateur sleuths solved the case before they did. One thing we can be sure of is that if a hiker one day runs across Maura's skeleton, some fat fuck detective with an big ugly mustache--who is at the moment likely shoving donuts into his face and doing next to nothing on the case--will make the rounds of the true crime shows, getting teary-eyed as he says, "I made a promise to that girl that I would never give up until I brought her home!"
I'm not sure if comments are still monitored, but does anyone know what type of shoes she was wearing and if they were different from her normal shoes? ultimately i guess it wouldn't matter, but if she were wearing hiking boots vs tennis shoes, or slipper, it seems more likely she was planning on going in the woods - im sure all of this has been hashed out before, im just curious.
New to this story and starting from the beginning - literally laughed out loud at Clint saying everything BUT Monaghan. Keep up the good work guys
somebody had perfect timing. very interesting.
Growing up and living in rural New Hampshire i think foul play should be heavily considered but a body not saying human but I've seen a deer killed by coyotes and in the same spot the next day you will only see blood and hair, especially in February if the winter has been rough the coyotes will find a body in a few hours
I'm going to throw another theory out here. A bit of a long shot, but what if a passing motorist accidentally hit Maura while she was walking on the side of the road, not being able to see her in the dark. They panic and not wanting to leave evidence behind of the hit, pick her up and drive off. Not likely, but I thought.
I'm sorry, but a motorist is anyone who is driving something whether it be a car, truck, motorcycle. I'm just saying she could have been hit
+Pasic TP I didn't say it was a motor cycle. I said motorist. Anyway, just a theory. But, I really believe she was running from police because she may have been drinking and for whatever reason got into someone's car or was forced.
well being that they mention this theory in this episode i wouldn't say its your own, long-shot theory
+Josh Castillo excuse me but I was stating my opinion. People are allowed to have the same theories. and no this was not mentioned.
actually, it was
i believe Maura was abducted as she was accepting a ride from a stranger waiting by the car or walking away from the scene. The abductor doesnt HAVE to be a serial killer. i dont believe she committed suicide or ran away.
I dismissed James Renner at first because some people said he was a bizarre hack journalist. Now, I agree w/his conclusions: Maura wanted to run away, start a new life & she succeeded. Probably with the help of Kate & Sara. Probably w/the help of two college guys. And maybe w/Fred's help, even though I'm not sure. I feel the party at Sara Alfieri's was a planning meeting, not a wild orgy. There were only a few people. Maura announced her intentions to escape & they planned the details there. She pulled it off, probably to escape Fred & Bill. Either Fred knows everything & is lying or wants to know where she is & hopes the police (who know) will tell him.
I dont think people that knew each other in collage will keep a secret like this.
You have a point there if the police do know where she is and she doesn't want it known I think the police would have to honor it. However they would not have gone to all the trouble in 2019...
There is zero evidence for any of this. It’s literally just made up details of a fictional story.
@@therrienmichael08 they would not pretend there was an investigation that had to be protected to hide her. They would say we found her but she doesn’t want to be contacted by anyone and we cannot reveal her location. They wouldn’t just pretend they never found her and leave the case open.
David Paulides - former police officer - one of the top researchers in missing persons cases - considers many possibilities as to why people go missing - commits to none. From what I know of him, he is very dedicated; and, you would be hard-pressed to find someone more knowledgeable on this topic. Great work as always - C.S. - FL.
yep
+Emily Walker Thank you for your reply - C.S. - S.FL.
+Tammy Ihnken I was wondering that myself. Could be there is no new info. on the case, or they are really busy with family/work and just don't have the time right now to put together an episode. Your guess is as good as mine. Thanks for the reply - C.S. - S.FL.
+Ts0usermax You probably know more about him than I do. If he was forced to quit the police force due to what you say, he should have to face an appropriate penalty. As far as him considering the bigfoot abduction possibility above other explanations - we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Thanks for your reply - C.S.
Paulides, in my opinion, is exploiting stories of people who have gone missing for personal gain and asserting fantastical, unfounded conspiracy theories that promote his own agenda ( selling books). I have listened to many interviews with him and he constantly contradicts himself, repeats details incorrectly, alludes to magical nonsense that he doesn't have the balls to just say outright (big foot/aliens stealing hikers) and displaying his profound ignorance on the part of medical science and forensic investigation. I take anything he says with a grain of salt. The fact that he is a former law enforcement officer does not make him credible or unimpeachable.
I am happy yall did this show good show!
Great episode! Gave me a lot to think about.
I wondered if anyone knows what Fred's work schedule was like the days prior to going to take Maura shopping for the used car. I can not tell you the amount of times my work schedule would have hindered my ability to get to a bank during operating hours.
Although I never have been blessed with an account balance which ATM withdraws could exceed the ATM limits, my ex-boyfriends father made a significant amount of money and would take the entire family on yearly vacations where he would send us to several ATMs to withdraw large amounts of money, even if he had time to pull it out ahead of time, he kinda got a kick out of letting us feel like we were doing him a little favor as a way to thank him. It was a yearly thing, he knew the entire trip, he would have a big group of honest and grateful teens-young adults who were more than willing to do any errands that could interfere with his vacation.
1:36:36 - I kind of agree about this. IF MM was just walking away from her life (not necessarily to commit suicide), then I could totally see this being the case, where she'd make it easier for her family to collect her things. So let's say she did hit that guy with her car, or was just so stressed she wanted out. So rather than straight up tell her family, who pushed her very hard to be successful, she packed her things, made an excuse to the university to buy some time, and headed off to the mountains for a bit of a break and a wallow before finding some city/town to restart in. I mean, there's more than one way to walk away from your life. Some people move across the country on a whim, some people pull a Gone Girl... I think it's possible MM would have just looked for a way out of her current situation that minimized the fallout she would have to deal with personally.
But also, nursing is a VERY busy major. I took a lot of classes with nursing students when I was getting my BFA, and it seemed like they caught more Zs in the lobby of the Nursing floor in the science building between classes than in their own dorms/apartments. Plus, they pulled incredibly long hours between work, class, studying/homework, and time at the hospital. So I could totally understand if she just wasn't unpacked yet and just shifted the boxes around as she needed to.
new person here, I am hoping there is going to be a podcast focusing purely on the witnesses at the crash site. Sometimes opinions are dismissed on the fact that there were so many eyes on Maura but for me not enough focus on the fact she disappeared right there. What were the chances all the witnesses were looking away at the same time and what exactly did they not see?
Leah Roberts. Why is everyone obsessed with Maura Mureay's case when Leah Roberts's case is much more compelling?
I also still don't believe it was the 911 dispatcher who inferred a "man smoking a cigarette" based on the description of the red dot alone.
In an interview with blogger "Samuel Ledyard", Mr. Westman states that at first both he and his wife thought it was a cigarette at first. So, I think more than likely it was the caller who said this, and not the dispatcher's embellishment.
notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/
"I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was?
He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a
cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was
not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger."
+Alex C So every actual reported account with quotes from the Westmans will actually show that they never said a man was smoking a cigarette in Maura's car, but you take an account from someone who is not even a reporter and didn't even use actual quotes, just paraphrased a conversation he had with the westman's and used his notes. How is that account reliable?
+Clint Harting Short answer is, "Yes". "Ledyard" could very well have been outright lying, but I don't believe that to be the case, personally.
I've never really believed the Westman's account of that night was all that accurate to begin with. I feel, given the evidence at the scene and weather reports from that week, etc., that the car never hit a tree, and Mr. Westman has always been adamant about the supposed fact that it did. So the "fluidity" of the "man smoking a cigarette" statement doesn't surprise me. Does it mean anything to the greater importance of the case? I doubt it, but I make note of it.
+Alex C Did it ever occur to you that Mr. Westman went outside that night and in the subsequent days and would've seen first-hand if damage had been done to a tree near his property. He apparently did go outside that night, if one account is to be believed, because he went across the street and unlocked his store (the weathered barn antique store) so Cecil Smith could see if Maura broke in and was hiding out. We don't just have to assume that Mr. Westman only guessed Maura hit a tree by looking out his window in pitch dark after she wrecked. He would've went out the following day and looked as well. I know they (and I believe it included Mr. Westman) discovered Maura's footprints in the snow bank where she wrecked.
+Clint Harting Ledyard is not a liar.
When going through training for call intake at a 911 call center, there's very specific direction to transcribe exactly what the caller is stating. If an operator says "caller states....." Then the words following came from the caller. The Westmans have agreed they made the cigarette comment, and then changed their account. I'm sorry, but Clint needs to review the training guide for 911 operators. I respect his theory, but I do not agree.
It doesn't have to be a serial killer....it could be a guy who saw a crime of opportunity.
Exactly, why do these people think serial killers are the only kinds of killers?
I have been following this case for some time now and I just wanted to throw some things out there. if these questions have all ready been asked I apologize. ok so I read that dogs who were trained to smell flesh were taken to the triangle house and that they went crazy. I also read that two carpet samples were taken and sent off and no info has ever been received on them. are either of these true? If so has anyone ever went back to search the triangle house again and tried to get samples or maybe even fingerprints or has the triangle house been ruled out?
I was also wondering was the car fingerprinted? If so when? Could that be something to have done again or is it inaccessible?
+sybil v Dogs were taken to an A-Frame house on Valley Rd. and they did go "Bonkers" allegedly over some carpet in a closet. Samples of the carpet were cut out, but no one seems to know what exactly happened to them. The cynical side of me is very skeptical about this whole search. It had nothing to do with the police and IMO was a search done orchestrated by the family to try and make police look bad (like they aren't doing their job, so we have to do it for them). IMO, of course they were going to uncover "something." The media was alerted ahead of time about this weekend search. Again of course they were going to find something IMO. To me it was a dog and pony show from the start.
"...IMO was a search done orchestrated by the family to try and make police look bad..."
In this entire case, the police are doing a bang-up job in looking bad without any outside help!
@@clintharting2221 where is blood samples from a frame house closet? She was kept in closet? Then moved in spring? Her body will not be found? Mountain? Just dumped? She was at a frame house partied all night with girl and guy. She left scene accident? To avoid d.u.i. how the hell? She gets into a vehichle???? Not seen passing by cop responding to crash site? No neiighbor? Saw ? Why did not her waite in warm school bus? Her keys out of car? Cant prove dui
My one of 5 questions? Where is blood samples? Carpet?? Muara was taking there? Kept in closet. Then removed? No where close? Sand pit?
I love this podcast! Tim and Lance were great as always. However, the guest made me feel very uncomfortable. I felt like they were attacking the family. And Also felt that they have never been a
young college girl, I have. I hope in the future they invite that young woman that helps them out to be apart of the conversation.
+Pasic TP Harting, I felt like all he did was attack the family. I have learn to ignore Renner, if I was a member of Maura's family I would talk to Renner either. In less, someone can prove beyond a doubt that the family is covering up something, I think they should back off. This is our hobby, it is their life and loved one, they can never walk away from this.
+St. John the Baptist Maybe if Smith would have been there, it would have been more balanced. But a lot of assumptions were being made about this young woman's behavior that as a woman myself I think are wrong. I don't care how well she knew the area, if it was dark and she was alone, Maura would have been afraid. Why can we throw doubt on witness A but everything the bus drive said is the gospel. And when I was in college, I would blow of school and standing in a program to do something fun! Lots of college kids do all the time. Again, I love this podcast but I found myself screen at my iPod on this one. I think when it comes to safety, men and women live a different reality. And was Maura mom sick at the time? She is going to leave her sick mom? I think a woman's voice or a man that has raised some daughters would have helped this podcast be balanced.
+Pasic TP Listen, I think Renner is an ass, I shut him out whenever he says anything. I was actually listening to Harting, which is why I felt uncomfortable.
+Pasic TP I don't expect people to ignore either. However, what is the "wrong behavior". I watch these missing and true crime show all the time. I never imagine that something like that will ever touch me. I do know what I would say or do if it did. What if in my grief and fear, I said something wrong? I don't want people saying she's in on it. I just think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. I feel like we have given that benefit to everyone else in this case except the family.
+Pasic TP Ok, don't get me start on his book! It is safe to say, I will not be purchasing his book!
Suicide is no longer a possibility because no body or clothing or bones have ever been found by hikers or hunters or fishermen or dogs in 14 yrs,
Maybe Fred banked at like a credit union or something and was not able to visit the single branch to pull the money out before he visited Maura. My husband buys motorcycles from private parties and it would not be usual for him to hit multiple ATMs to get the cash if he was not able to hit the bank. Many banks have odd hours and close at like 4PM.
I enjoyed listening to this. I missed the input from John Smith and I am so sorry he couldn't make it. I still believe she is somewhere in those woods. I believe she did go in at some point and I don't think she could have made it through the night. She was cold, her feet probably wet and freezing, I don't think she could have made it far.
If you did have a time at your disposal to estimate and even experiment the maximum distance she could have traveled in any direction under her circumstances that could give you a pretty good circle to search in. Take in modern gps tracking and search every single degree in 360° circle in the estimated maximum distance. It will take time, it will be rough. But once somebody does that, we could finally say she did not enter the woods.
+Branko Petek Totally agree. I think it's hard for some people to imagine how thick with trees, brush, undergrowth, leaves, etc., wooded areas can be, and how even intact bodies can go totally undetected, even within areas that have been previously searched.
It seems that it happens often enough that searches do not turn up bodies and that dogs miss them too. Think of the Jameson family. 3 people and wasn't it something like 4 years later they were discovered about 3 miles from where the vehicle was found? The little boy Michael Henley (I think that was his name) disappeared from a camp. At one point people thought he was the little boy bound and gagged in the infamous photo that has been speculated to be Tara Calico. Later his body was found in the woods not too far from where he went missing and appeared to have been there the whole time. Another was the experienced older woman hiker who went off trail to use the restroom and ended up getting lost. They searched for her extensively and much later her body was found in a tent along with a note from her when she realized she was dying. Unfortunately, it's very possible that her body is out there and just has not been stumbled across as of yet.
@@msvick66 i believe muarras body? Is not there? No foot prints in snow? I think she was picked up? Who has a scanner? A frame blood in closet?
To address one point: Was it really the family who put suicide out there first?
In the press and news reports the first mention of her being potentially suicidal was in the press release by Haverhill PD on 2/11/04. Here's a link to that press release:
drive.google.com/file/d/0B0THHDpHRXYgWDZlUHdYRlBJZ1k/view?usp=sharing
"Murray is listed as endangered and possibly suicidal at this point."
And there was also an article written back in 2004 on just this topic. The family wanted to clarify who made that remark first, and they said it was Haverhill PD who first put that out there as well. I know Clint thinks the family did some back-pedaling, but is this part of that, in your opinion?
projectjason.org/forums/topic/350-missing-woman-maura-murray-nh-02092004/page-2#entry2640
"Murray and Rausch are upset about comments made this week by New Hampshire State Police Troop F commander Lt. John Scarinza. Scarinza pointed to a book by Nicholas Howe, "Not Without Peril," as a possible source of why Maura disappeared. The book was among items found in her car.
In the book, there are stories about tragedies and rescues in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, areas in which Maura and her father had hiked.
Scarinza has said Murray told police his daughter was suicidal.
However, the first mention of Maura being suicidal was in a press release issued by Haverhill Police Chief Jeff Williams two days after Maura's car accident and disappearance.
Murray says he never told police his daughter was suicidal."
+Alex C
Damn you are good. Glad to have you here.
+Alex C You're right if you blindly accept the spin that family have created concerning suicide. The first mention of suicide came on Feb 10 during Fred's 911 call as he attempted to get a hold of Cecil Smith. "Fred Murray called back and said officer has not gotten back to him. (911 dispatcher) told Fred that officer had the message and was sure the officer would be calling Fred back. Fred stated "IT'S URGENT THAT OFFICER SMITH CALLS HIM. Fred had some very important information to give him. Fred asked 911 dispatcher if Smith had a cell phone. 911 dispatch replied "Negative sir, but I will give Officer Smith another message" Fred replied "PLEASE DO, IT'S VERY URGENT THAT OFFICER SMITH CALLS ME." In 2012 James Renner interviewed the lead investigator in Maura's disappearance. The Lead investigator referred back to that 911 call Fred made and what was said once Fred finally got a hold of Cecil Smith. "What I was told was the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, She has gone to the North County to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old Sqaw," said Lt. John Scarinza. Scarinza also added this nugget "I've said all along: My sense is that Maura's original intent when she left UMASS was to come to the North County to get away from something that was occurring in her life down there. I TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE FAMILY'S THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS COMING TO KILL HERSELF. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here. My sense is that she is not still alive."
so either the lead investigator of the case is flat-out lying, or the family is putting serious spin on what actually occurred concerning how suicide talk entered the picture. It has to be one or the other and I know logically that it makes no sense for the officers to be making this whole thing up. By the time Fred called police to tell them his daughter had come to their area to do personal harm to herself, the Police wouldn't have even been speculating one way or the other whether or not the driver of the car was suicidal or not. In fact when Fred called, not much had even happened yet concerning the investigation
+Clint Harting Scarinza's and Haverhill PD's accounts haven't always meshed. According to Renner, Haverhill PD told him there was no alcohol missing from the car, and that it was all accounted for. In a comment made after that post (the same one you reference, actually), Scarinza stated alcohol was missing, so I'm not sure they were ever on the same page entirely. I'm also not sure Scarinza was ever "lead investigator" either, I've heard that was Det. Todd Landry. Scarinza was just commander of Troop F of the NHSP.
In that interview, as you said (and he is quoted), Scarinza is only relaying what was told to him, and he heard none of this firsthand.
+Alex C A Haverhill officer not assigned to the case told Renner that all alcohol was accounted for. That does not mean that literally the officers have every bottle of alcohol in a evidence storage room somewhere. It means they collected a receipt from Maura's car and know exactly what alcohol Maura bought that day. Lt. Scarinza was lead investigator of the entire case. He was briefed from his own officers and UMASS police as well but Scarinza was in charge.
Great episode guys!
This may have been answered before, but is it possible that the damage on the windshield was caused by debris from the airbag being deployed and not her head? Has anybody looked at the damage pattern for that model airbag in that car? I think recent news would indicate that these devices are quite powerful.
I enjoyed this episode. I love hearing the points of view. I will be honest, while I am interested in Renner's research there is something about him that rubs me the wrong way. I don't think he is a bad guy but something I can't put my finger on bugs me
+Emily Walker Same here. I do appreciate the fact that he's worked so hard and produced a lot of material for the case. I think it's what seems to be a lack of self-awareness that tends to cause problems. He criticizes or attacks people who don't respond the way he wants them to, and attributes bad motives to them constantly. For example, Fred Murray isn't obligated to speak with him. Maura's friends aren't obligated to speak with him, much less share personal details with him, and there may be any number of understandable reasons why not. Instead of being empathetic and seeing things from others' perspectives, though, he either takes it as a personal affront as though he's entitled to all their details, or he thinks they're up to something sinister. It's gotten pretty ridiculous in some instances, and I have to say it has really diminished his credibility with me because all he does is editorialize based on this very skewed and self-centered point of view, so it's hard to trust what he reports. There were several instances in this very podcast where what he claims is directly contradicted by others' accounts and/or questioned (thank goodness) by the other members of the discussion. It's a shame, since he clearly has a strong interest in the case and the ability to theorize and gather information.
+Andrea Gardner He really seems very entitled and when people won't speak to him he then trash talks their entire family. Nice guy.
I know what you mean. His interest is disconcerting and almost as disturbing as other aspects of this case. Did Renner do it?
Unlike the other researchers who focus on leads and try to actually investigate, he focuses on attacking people who won’t agree with his weird conclusions.
@@tomfarrell8434 that’s what I’m asking. Where was James Renner on the night Maura went missing?
Renner gets on my nerves so much. He's obsessed with the case so much it's sick. Anyone who doesn't speak to him or doesn't say what he wants to hear is hiding something or lying. Literally Fred could grant him an interview and explain to him all his doubts and he still wouldn't believe him, because it wouldn't fit his theory. No wonder no one wants to talk to him, he's like a sleezy Rita Skeeter, who pushes and pushes and pushes people.
If I had disappeared during my college years and people looked into my life, chances are they would make up crazy assumptions about why I left.
And sure as fuck my mother wouldnt grant a guy like James any information.
I would more guess the police does not release the video because either (a) there was more than one person in the video, (b) they don't wanna run the risk that a third person spots something on the video that they oversaw (c) privacy reasons with regard to third persons that do obviously have nothing to do with the case (d) maybe there was something about Maura that they deem has nothing to do with the case?
To me the mystery will never truly be solved unless Maura is found alive. Maura may have left UMASS with the intention of running away but got into the accident which threw a wrench into her plans. Maura may have also just planned on taking a mental break for week but again got into the accident which threw a wrench into her plans. Unless Maura is found alive we will never know why she left UMASS. My point being the reason why Maura left UMASS could be completely irrelevant to why Maura disappeared. I personally believe that Maura was a victim of a crime of opportunity but until she is found I am open to others opinions.
She is dead. Picked up for a ride? How the hell ? No one? Saw a truck, car ? Muara got into? 3 minute window? Who has a scanner?
If she were to return, would she be arrested for all her prior charges? Do you think that's what truly keeps her away?
What charges , are u insane, ffs. That was 2004, not 2014 ... She didn't kill anyone or such..
For a misdemeanor leaving the scene of a one-car accident that caused no damage to any one’s property?No.
I think there is a distinct lack of empathy on this podcast. Maura seemed like a good person, who certainly had a few problems. But I think it's lost on the people here that she is somebody's daughter, somebody who was loved, and somebody who is missed. It seems like it's just a bit of casual fun to these guys, something to have a chat about with a few beers on a Friday night. But this is a reality for her friends and his family, not just something to gossip and speculate about.
And I find it ridiculous for you to suggest that the fact that the family would not speak to you is some reason to think of them as "acting suspicious". On one of the podcasts you referred to her as a sociopath, without any real justification for doing so. I can absolutely understand why nobody would related to Maura Murray would want to speak to either James Renner or the podcast (for facilitating him).
What ?? You got this all wrong.
I don’t think she ever undisputed packing there were on campus for two weeks
This case drives me crazy😣😣😣
I have listened to every episode. Forgive me if people have already made this point I'm about to make....I know others have suggested that she could have been picked up by a stranger (aka a local dirtbag) and murdered by them. I know each theory has their good points and bad points and that the bad points to this one have been discussed. But one thing I realized when I was listening to this episode was that, IMO, I feel like we can rule that one out by allowing me to expand on this theory and why it isn't likely. That guy with the bus (Butch Atwood??) had JUST asked her come with him and she turned him down immediately. So, we know she was very capable of saying no. So, putting that piece of information together with the point someone made on this episode about how unlikely she could have been taken by force (i.e. time limitations and nobody heard or saw a scuffle), I think it's really unlikely she would have turned Butch down and then taken another total stranger's offer only minutes later. If she was going to go with some random stranger, she would have gone with Butch Atwood. Which makes me think that if it she did leave with someone, it had to have been someone she knew. I put myself in her position and I really think that's the only likely "someone picked her up" scenario. I did allow my mind to consider that I probably would go with a police officer. I could see myself turning a stranger down but if a cop pulls up or an off duty cop pulls up and says: "Hey! You wanna get in my car to keep warm?", I might do that thinking that there would be no way a cop would hurt me.
+Ann Daniel Yeah, this is a pretty common line of thought, and makes sense. But MMM have discussed it a few times, pointing out that Butch Atwood was a great big guy and perhaps intimidating-looking. Or, more likely IMO, since he offered to call the police and (by some accounts) indicated to Maura that he was going to call the police, she wanted nothing to do with all that since she'd most likely been drinking. The last thing she'd want is a DUI, especially since all the recent upsetting problems with driving (probably while impaired) and her legal problems after the credit card fraud at UMass. JMO. So anyway, just because she turned down Butch doesn't necessarily mean she would turn down someone else. Especially if it meant getting away quickly, before the police arrived. If I were Maura, I'd be wanting to get away from there as soon as possible, no matter what. (I do think it possible that a cop picked her up, although I feel she most likely fled and perished in the woods.)
+Andrea Gardner I remember those points and I totally agree with you (which I think is everyone's frustration/fascination with this case...just as someone comes up with an idea, it's very easily shot down). I even thought as I typed that..."Well, if she really was drunk, she's probably not want to go with a cop." However, this episode was the first time I recall someone ever saying that Butch *insisted* to her that he was going to call the cops even though she asked him not to/said she already had. I don't recall the story ever being framed that way and that could very well be my memory. Up until that, my understanding was that she turned him down and said she had already called the police and he kind of just slinked away only to come to the realization as he was getting closer to home: "Hey, she probably couldn't have called the police because of the lack of cell phone service out here, so I'll just call anyway." I can totally see the line of thinking that she would want to get as far away from the accident as possible if she was trying to flee. And, perhaps, the reason of her turning Butch down was less because of his appearance and more because he lived so close and her intention was to get as far away as she could from the scene of the accident because she had been drinking. I guess there's a slim chance another stranger (who could be her killer) pulled up moments later and offered her a ride to another city. That could also explain why she left so much stuff behind....she had the offer, had to get the necessities and get away quickly.
+Ann Daniel I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I believe she refused to go with Butch, because she wanted to get out of that area so that the police did not find her. Since Butch lived close by and he mentioned calling the police, she probably believed that she would get into trouble. She may have thought her chances were better either by getting a ride from someone else who was driving through the area or by running out of the immediate area and hitchhiking a couple of miles down the road.
+Kent Valley This is what more than likely happen.She either went in the woods or got into a car with someone in order to avoid police.
+Ann Daniel Yeah, I tend to agree with you there, too, that it probably was that he lived right there and she suspected he would in fact call police. I doubt it had to do with his appearance. Totally conjecture on my part, though.
Maura's life was spiraling out of control...so it could have been a suicide. But it's very difficult to hide your own body without a lot of planning.
has anyone ever looked into the supermarket? she had bags from a local supermarket right? supermarkets have security cameras even in 2004. maybe someone followed her from there? or maybe she went up the road and was abducted outside the search radius?
She's a runner. Emotional turmoil to say the least. lying. self hate/guilt same as dad. she hit that guy (dents on the driver side for it fit). irrational, mindfulness racing, cant concentrate. Everything is getting worse. too many rabbit holes get attention ignoring all the important behavior testimony. that coner is the shapest one in the google map as u look above. I think she was flirting with the the suicide thoughts. missed the corner and that was the straw that finally broke it. turned lights off on car. she put the towel in the tail pipe.done. if the bus driver didn't stop her she would of sat there. cops called. now she has to flee, dui. choice made for her. she was flirting with self harm after the hit and run. the cops called sealed it. shes a runner. doubt she even got a lift that night. maybe had something with here pills/pocket. ran high up to do it far from site. Hope I'm wrong. maybe she let the weather take her. its easy to do with alcohol in your bloodstream. sad. i hope I'm wrong.
+Darin Zadina Nearly exactly what I've been thinking as most likely scenario. Poor Maura. I think it would have been pretty easy to succumb to the elements if that's what she made her mind up to do. If she did have alcohol with her, even easier. I hope she finally found peace.
+Darin Zadina Would have found her body.
+nat 5271 Not necessarily (looking at other cases). I haven't set foot in the area I'll admit. although vast, dense woody mountainy. everyone has a personal philosophy to life. skaters, surfers. mountaineers, hikers like her. an avg cross country race is 3.1 miles. she's in decent shape still. plus. I think that girl had lots to run from/off. agree? pure speculation by me. she tripled that and then some (adds up to lots of sq miles). the book and maybe that chapter/story in the book mark with her brothers pic is very inturging.
+Andrea Gardner Hard to say. she definitely ran toward her fate. cliche quote. "the mind being a excellent servant but a terrible master" dfw.
Hey Darin...Your previous comment said "... I think that girl had lots to run from/off. agree? pure speculation by me. she tripled that and then some (adds up to lots of sq miles).
She may have been a track star and have great endurance...barring injuries, of course. But...you most likely sat there in your house in the month of May and wrote out your comment. Meanwhile, you forgot all about the fact that back on Feb 9, 2004 where Maura was, the temp was a low of -2 degrees with a high of 13 degrees. I'm talking WAY below freezing!!! So it wouldn't really matter if she were a track star or not,, me thinks!
Poor girl~
James has bee the only person to try to uncover the truth.. And he spent five yrs doing it. He doesn't demonize the family. They all have treated him bad. They should be thanking god someone was trying to fig it out...oh wait, they aren't, bc they know she is alive..too much evidence he found.
One thing I don't understand is if she ran away, changed Her identity etc, and Her family knows, then why draw attention to the case? Wouldn't they just let it be?
Is it true that the book Not Without Peril, by Nicholas Howe was also found in Maura's car? Have you guys considered doing an episode on the Seventeen Magazine article (it has quotes from friends and family)?
Better with very limited John Smith.
Woman in the woods hiding in freezing cold and removing the vehicle she could have returned to, was mistake 1.
I see all 4 commentators have their pictures in the zoom at the end of the video. I like the views of the gent who sounds like a texas/southern accent.
Am I the only one who thinks James Renner's theory of a "tandem driver" makes no sense? If Maura planned to kill herself she wouldn't invite people along. Her friends were back at UMass if she wanted companionship. If Maura wanted to clear her head for a few days and asked someone to join her they would have gone in the same car, not one car following the other.
Don't understand the fixation on the money. If Fred used a regional bank in eastern MA it is likely that there were no branches in western MA or CT. If he didn't want to write a check, then he would have to max out the ATM limit to get the cold cash he needed for the car.
Also, packing your stuff at the end of the Fall semester at UMass would be unusual in my experience a few years earlier. You would only be required to clean out after the spring semester or if you knew you would not be back. It's not like anybody came into your room to clean it or anything. You just went home for Christmas and came back 4 weeks later.
+Tim O'Connor I haven't put much thought at all in the withdrawls Fred supposedly made, because I really do think they were car shopping that Saturday. However, I know my bank which I have been with for over 20 years, puts a daily limit on how much money you can withdrawl which is like $600. So it wouldn't matter how many ATMS you went to, the most amount of money you can take out in one day is 600. At least that is how I understand it. I have never tried to test that limit though.
+Tim O'Connor Yes, I totally agree with you. That's all of the people in my dorms did with the exception of people who put in a request to move rooms at the end of the semester. We had that option at my college and it could only be done at the end of the semester.
+Clint Harting If you don't mind me asking, do you think/suspect there was a pressing reason as to why the car shopping had to occur that weekend? An urgent reason, even? I understand if you wouldn't want to explain WHAT reason that could be. I tend to think so, and that it has a lot to do with why she left, and would explain a whole hell of a lot of what happened. I enjoy listening to your perspective and ideas so I thought I'd ask.
+Andrea Gardner Just curious...are you thinking that the urgent reason was because of wanting to get rid of the car due the hit and run on campus?
+Andrea Gardner Very hard to say. I am 50/50 on whether or not Maura had anything to do with the hit and run that took place that Thursday night. A rush to get another car and get rid of Saturn seems logical if her car was involved. And she would likely breakdown and get a hold of her father whom I could see taking charge of the situation and swooping into town the morning after a large snow storm to go out and get Maura a different car. But then I can see the other side of things too. There is nothing concrete that ties Maura to the hit and run and therefore putting her at the scene of it is pure speculation and I try to stay clear of speculating when it comes to this case, because there is just so darn much of it already. I know for a fact the victim of the hit and run doesn't want answers as to whom hit him and I also realize that the chances of police ever figuring out who hit him are very slim to likely not even something they are considering anymore anyway. So where does that leave us?
Both fred and kathleen said in the first couple of weeks they both thought maura had committed suicide. Those news articles can be found on john smiths website
The atm stills were totally inconsequential, meaning they could have been released with zero damage to any type of investigation and Clint makes excuses for law enforcement here.
Great show guys n hello Cloey GREAT
I feel like this is just one of those cases where not having a resolution causes all of these theories to spread and, in the end, it may one day be discovered that what happened was nothing as dramatic as the theories. I don't mean to say that a person dying is not dramatic but I just dont see anything pointing to foul play. Considering the trouble she was in I think its clear she had personal problems and I think its likely they were the cause of her death. It would be quite a coincidence if in those circumstances, and on top of everything, she had that crash and then met with foul play. It could also simply be that she crashed because she was drunk so she didn't want to have to deal with the police and later got lost.
good collected thoughts
Does the video show a damaged car prior to going to New Hampshire ???
What difference does it make if the video was poor quality
Investigate the boyfriend again...
...didn't somebody in the family already spill the beans the same day they were shown one piece of evidence they were supposed to keep quiet? Why would the cops trust them with ANOTHER piece of evidence when they clearly can't follow instructions?
+Sheri Martin I know what you are referring to. The family was doing a good job about keeping the rag in the tailpipe a secret, but someone else (likely a volunteer fireman that was on the scene of Maura's wreck) went on a message board and talked about the rag. Because rag was being talked as a possible suicide attempt, the family felt the need to go ahead and go public with that information to try and refute the suicide talk. The family consulted their own private investigators before doing so and got the OK from them to go ahead and start talking about the rag in the tailpipe.
+Clint Harting Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression it was a relative.
29:20 So true! Also strikes me odd...
Should I be able to see you all?
I would like to here more about what the boyfriend knows. The 4,000 dollars isn't that big a mystery it's been explained. Jenner thinks Fred gave her the money to take off. Why not just come out and say it? Not only that but he claims Fred didn't withdraw that money. Well here is the issue with that statement it would take you some time to take out that much money because you can only withdraw 300 at a time. I really think her dad was just trying to help her and I don't think it was just about the car. No one really knows for sure, that doesn't make Fred a liar either. I'm under the assumption that Jenner thinks Fred knows she was taking off that he has been dishonest from the start. I can understand that something's don't always make sense like her wreck and the accounts we heard. It's been 20 years there is no way anyone would stay gone that long and never talk to their family again. Is it possible? Yes. If you don't want to be found. But I just don't think that's the case, I really don't think she's alive.
I just heard the part about the knife and A frame house at the end of this episode. I just wonder if maybe there isn't something there. I wonder is the house vacant?
They found blood and took carpet which supposedly has been tested and ruled out as significant. That being said it is vacant and creepy as hell.
Could it be that this town is like the hills have eyes and when they saw maura stranded they collectively went in for the kill
That is the stuff of movies but also the kind of thing that John Smith wants you to believe.
I can believe that
What about 001 didnt butch call for a unit to come out there she neva said she saw maura just the weird spin out the units went out & she was gone within 10 minutes what was her point! Whats with the discrepancies? Dey didnt stumble upon her after taking the call we all know that
Who the hell is "Mohonahan"? Is that even a last name, for crying out loud? Sheesh....
It's actually Monahan. Clint puts his own spin on it!
"Not like she could have jumped over the snow bank"- coming from a guy who has claimed that he scaled a sheer dirt embankment in a panic (See: True Crime Garage, ep 22). I mean, how perfectly smooth and slippery is this snow bank that MM couldn't clamber over or through?
If she had done that, wouldn't there be evidence of it in the snow? OR was it so could that the snowbanks were frozen solid?..IF the snow banks were frozen, wouldn't she have slipped & fallen...again leaving evidence in the snow?
@@2tubedify it wasn’t that cold that day, it was like 29-33 degrees.
Phone last pinged where, she shut it off as soon as she wrecked? She would be trying to call someone or head for the highest point to get a signal. Especially if I weird guy was trying to get her to go home with him period!
I use a credit union, only able to pull out $300/day, regardless of which ATM. Ihave plenty of money to pull out much more.
+ Clint Harting So then is there any truth in the idea that the owner of the A frame house's brother took Fred Murray a knife? how about fingerprints on the car? Just thoughts I couldn't get out of my head.
+sybil v Yes that part is true. But once again, police have never been involved with that. Fred attempted to take the knife up and turn it over at the glass window to a dispatcher, but he was told they couldn't accept it there. So fred mailed the knife to police. (Again I am skeptical) if this was a legit clue in a possible murder, police would've been highly interested in that knife and the father of the supposed murdered child, I highly doubt would be careless enough to stick such an important clue in the US Mail. On the car: I am not certain, the car sat unlocked and accessible to anyone for over two years before police took back custody of it. My hunch says they never attempted to lift fingerprints off that car.
+Clint Harding I would think that fingerprinting the car would be of importance. If dogs had her scent 600ft passed the accident site(which I read was sort of in front of Butch Atwoods house) then they lose it. I would think that means that she got in a vehicle. I wonder what the chances are that the dog just lost the scent at 600ft and she just kept running down the road.
I read law enforcement waited 36 hours before searching that direction. Then did it snow enough or anything to cover up her tracks from 36 hours before if she went up the 600ft and then dipped off into the woods.
Thank you for responding me.
+sybil v The dog losing the scent where it did is not surprising at all according to the actual person who was handling the dog. They only estimated the dog (before the search even began) would be able to track for about 100-yards or so and that is exactly at the point where the dog lost the scent. Too much time had passed, the cold temperatures and cross-winds were going to make it very difficult for a scent-trail dog to be able to follow scent very long. The only real fact they gained from the search was that maura initially started east when she left her car.
Witness "A" should have had a dash cam with date/time stamp
what channel is this?
+Pasic TP I dont not mind as i write just want to know what's going on this channel
+Pasic TP
ok
So i take it that they chk the snow for recent footprints going up to all them homes in the area that day
MASSIVE lawsuit coming here...trolls
fred brought up suicide, then years later says the opposite.
1:33:10....."it suggests". In other words, you have absolutely no proof of what you're implying?
Harting or Renner? Comment winner.
100 about the suicide talk coming from the family
I love this podcst, and i love you guys and John Smith and everyone trying to help this case.. Buti have to say, James Renner is an idiot, all the baf stuff he said about Mauras family can never be forgiven..
59:35 ^5 JamesRenner!
and another ^5 1:27:15 JR!
mohonahan
Could it be a possibility that all of it was staged? Possibly she had already disappeared. There is no footage of her in the store no one on the scene that spoke to her knew her personally. Who says it was really Maury Murray? The voicemail her boyfriend received no one spoke it was silent. Someone else could have easily searched for cabins and emailed her professors. Someone else could have made the silent phone call. Someone else could have created the accident to make it appear it was Maury. Her friend stated Maury did not even tell her about the previous wreck. Why wouldn't she? Why make a point of stating that? Possibly the person that got picked up from the scene was not Maury because she was never there. Could be someone dressed like Maury and in her clothes. Just a opinion and thought.
😊
How dare you mock David Paulides. Have you even researched what you're poking fun at? But here you are obsessed with a person who probably just ran away. I thought I found y'all interesting. But mocking something you know zero about true colors shine through. I have followed David Paulides for years and can promise you something is almost supernatural going on. Why don't y'all stick to what you are good at.
She was kidnapped...only logical answer
+Tammy Ihnken That theory that she ran away to start a new life is absurd, quit living in your conspiracy fantasyland, so she ran away to abandon her friends,boyfriend and family to start a new life rather then at worst case scenario spend 6 months in jail for a DUI wreck and leaving the scene of an accident without injury or death. Her criminal past are you kidding me....somebody who stole some money on a credit card once and with a bad driving record is hardly a career criminal. Her choices were wreckless at times yes.. but are common for many young adults and hardly those of a master criminal. We arent talking about some ex CIA agent here. If she did start a new life somewhere what would her motive be .....to avoid a few months in jail ??? They are people who change their identity who are wanted for very serious crimes who have had great financial connections end up turning themselves in or are caught because it is very hard to do this day and age even if you do have connections. She was either kidnapped or the victim of a hit and run where someone hid the body which i think is very unlikely.
Lol....began a new life. This girl didnt have her shit together at all...no way would she be able to start a new life and not be discovered. Maybe u think she is some secret CIA agent as well... You have watched way too many movies. She was most likely kidnapped not by a serial killer but by some random guy who wanted to take advantage of her and saw the opportunity. All evidence supports she was most likely kidnapped . She wasnt convicted in that first dui. The idea that she took on a new identity is ridiculous. Maybe u can join James Renner in looking behind trees and and alleyways in Canada. You conspiracy theorist crack me up. Face the facts....she was most likely raped,murdered and killed.
perhaps she was abducted by a UFO...fucking dumbass. lol
+The Chercheur The neighbors reported seeing several cars pass between the time she was talking to the bus driver and the time the police arrived to find her car. The dogs picked up her scent in the road and then it stopped in the road and not on the side of the road or into the woods. Combing those 2 facts with the fact that she has not been seen or heard from since and no body has been found is plenty to argue my case. Of course nobody knows this as fact ( except the killer) but the evidence certainly points in that direction. As far as pushing my theory around that was the whole point of these podcast videos....to openly discuss what may have happen to her and why.
I think it could be a possibility she was hit by a car but then taken somewhere but that seems unlikely..never heard of a hit and run where the body as taken
@12:54 A black guy? WTF does skin color have to do with anything?
Going back and listening to that part of it reminded me of something important. Police have always said that Maura WAS ALONE at the atm. So any speculation about there being someone with Maura is pure false! And for the hearing impaired, it was black eye what I said. Folks who like to get super creative with the facts about the case and turn this into an Agatha Christie mystery, have long speculated that maybe Maura had a blackeye (Like from Fred) and that is why police didn't want to release the footage because Fred was a big time suspect. Silly if you ask me.
Hey Clint... I wanted to ask you about the blood hound thing. As far as I understand the dog was able to pick up the scent for a while, and then lost it right were it would have been perfect for her to be picked up by someone. Not talking abduction though, up the in air for me, but after crashing the car it would make sense to try and flag someone down right? All theories still stand after that though, suicide could have taken place somewhere else (not that I am totally on board with that theory yet), which would make sense I think, since committing suicide in the middle of nowhere would be quite difficult I think, since you have very little to do it with.
Clint Harting
My mistake, It sounds like both. Thank you for clearing that up!
What you have to understand about the initial dog search was that the dog's handler knew going in their dog was only going to be able to track for 100-yards in any direction. The dog made it right about 100-yards and lost the scent at the very point the Rt. 112 meets up with Bradley Hill Rd. So the intersecting roads is likely what caused the dog to lose the scent. But the only fact established by the dog handler that day was that maura took off in an eastwardly direction from her car. That is the only fact the dog handler was able to make. the rest is pure 100 percent speculation. Now, I believe it's still possible Maura got a ride out of the area, but I don't automatically just assume something bad happened from it. The telling detail to me is that it is believed maura only took alcohol and her backpack along with her keys and phone from her car. She left her clothes behind and she left her valuables (necklace, stuffed animals, sentimental items). If she didn't get in a car, then you are talking about someone alone in the White Mountains with alcohol and nothing else. to me not many good conclusions can come from that. BTW, Maura wasn't in the middle of nowhere, the White Mountains were her favorite place in the whole world.
Clint Harting
Ah yes, thank you for your clarification, this makes a lot of sense
As for luck....according to Christian orthodoxy, people living within the laws of God or grace are protected from the dangers and bad fates that may have Befallen them.otherwise....and vice versa...
Maura would be having bad luck for 2 reasons....1. She was really messed up in her decision making for the past 1-2 years because she never gained the skills to stop and cope....2. From everything that has been said....she was not nurturing a Christ-like life and thus was not protected by God's grace from meeting up with EVIL..(One reason why true Christians sometimes seem to have a glow and seem to "walk through fire" without ill effects)...(Reason to go church, people.)
I don't think a serial killer. As there aren't many murders there, I think someone stumbled across her & thought this is a good opportunity for them to take advantage, They might of never done it before or done it again after that, We never know, Hopefully one day we will