I'm a young woman, approximately Maura's age, and I have gone off on my own without telling anyone. For a day to a town 100km away, but granted, it was never an overnight stay. Thanks for having James back on because it was his book that turned me onto this case. So thank you.
Renner openly admits he is telling people to NOT call police if they have information about Maura. And he wants John Smith charged with obstruction? LOL. I can't with this guy.
I honestly never liked Renner or agreed with his theories but hes actually making alot of good points in this video especially about the police conspiracy.
I personally think James Renner is delusional. "Maura has a kid and doesn't want to be found." Sorry Mr. Renner you're not a woman, so maybe that is why you're unable to see beyond your hypothesis. Having a child out of wedlock is NOT a viable reason to disappear or using your term "disappear". She was too young and too involved with her family and friends to go away forever. It would be very difficult to move and live a life in hiding. She had no money either.
A girl , this close to her dad that will take her to buy alcohol and she will drive his car drunk, wreck it and run to him would NEVER run away because she was pregnant. Rediculous idea that makes no sense. We all need a few minutes to be alone , but being pregnant would never make a girl that really depends on her dad for moral support leave her life without spilling her guts to her dad. Seriously drunk driving is worse than being pregnant, this isn't the 1950s when they sent pregnant girls into hiding!! And where the hell would she be right now?! No job, no education, no money... Rediculous scenerio...
As far as Maura being pregnant goes, if I just found out & didn't want to share it I DEFINITELY wouldn't ask a fellow nursing student or anyone about the effects of alcohol I'd google it.
***** Yeah with her major being nursing I'm sure she googled a lot of things. I was trying to say IF she was pregnant I'm pretty sure she wouldn't ask a fellow classmate she'd google it to keep it a secret or from ppl suspecting it. That's my point.
so weird that the river nearby is called 'lost river' .. everything about this case is just so ridiculously weird. i think james is a smart guy who knows a lot about criminal activity but i think hes wrong about this... that fiction writer is coming out ;)
I don't think Maura ran away...but if she did the tandem driver could have been someone from a shelter helping her, and not one of her friends. Someone working at a battered women's shelter would not talk about who they helped or how.
Survivors don't run, they stand up? I really love getting the perspective of a bunch of dudes that act like they understand what it is like to be abused female or in a terrible situation where you feel like there is no escape. Thanks guys.
If you read my comment completely, I said abused female but elaborated further by stating a terrible situation of which there is no escape, which unfortunately happens all the time regardless of gender. Never mentioned gender in the second part as it was a blanket statement.
Also, if cops are involved and 001 is a part of it, he took her in. She died from a head injury, and they are covering it up. If he was drunk he wouldn't notice she would have a concussion or worse. Then they put the car in shop to clean up any DNA and to keep it off the road. That would take a few cops to be in on it.
James Renner you're not logical. Why would you drive tandem in this old horrible car why not just drive together in the better car? James can't stand him. Sick of his accusations attacking other people's characters.
It seems to me that James Renee is a bit obsessed with Maura Murray and his obsession has led to him to live in denial about her fate. Yes it is possible that she is alive, BUT almost 90% of missing cases of young women or any women of any age or race are murdered. That statistic might be wrong but from all of the cases I've ever heard of and investigated myself as an online sleuther most all of them are cases of murder not imprisonment or new identity. James sounds absolutely crazy to me.
Tights AF She got in a car with someone or was forced into a car. We know that from the sniffer dogs. Possibly by a following predator who possibly put the rag in her tailpipe.
At best the dog search is inconclusive. First, the dogs weren't brought in until two days later. Second, the dog handlers said at the beginning that they would probably only be able to follow the scent a short distance given the time gone by, weather conditions and road traffic. The findings are equally consistent with Maura crossing the road at that point and going down a side street into the forest to avoid being seen by the police. Fred Maury later complained that the police gave the dogs a new pair of gloves Maura only wore once or twice instead of her running shoes, so the dogs only had a weak scent to begin with.
Renner lost me way back when he said Maura was a sociopath like it was a fact. Totally irresponsible. That's not even bringing up what he's said about Maura's dad. The guy assumes WAY too much. I'm always wary of anyone who's got something to sell anyways.
Exactly. I was honestly on board with Renner and thought he was extremely knowledgable in the case until he made the comment that she was a Sociopath and honestly his book was derivative of that feeling. He twists the facts to make a more dramatic story line and it feels cheap and false.
Do you realize how difficult it would be for a 21yr old girl even with a younger guy helping her to stay hidden for 12 years now! Do you realize how disciplined you'd have to be. We are talking about a 21yr old girl with millions of people all over the United States knowing about her. I'm not buying Renners conclusion.
Not that hard. You leave, use a different name, change your hair colour a little maybe adjust your eyebrow shape get a quiet job in a sleepy rural town, find a nice partner become the homely type and no one will ever know even in a regular city also people she knew of they saw her by coincidence they probably wouldn’t recognise her because the brain goes into a form of shock and can’t comprehend what your seeing then later on your brain says “you’re being stupid”
It would be difficult NOW, and you assume it would be difficult then based on social media and everyone having access to social media and all sorts of news and information at the tip of your fingers, but back then social media was in its infancy. Certain demographics would have been late on the technology bandwagon too, especially in small towns.
Y'all boys are on a roll. NOT a James Renner fan,but he held his own Purdy good.I still think his ideas are bunk. Anywho,since all the networks are having bidding wars fighting over Renner at the moment here's a bidness proposal for all the big tv exes watching their future golden boy right now. How's about a buddy cop show with James Renner and John Smith? ala the good guys or dragnet the movie reboot,you know,like Jimmy renny says "something fun".
Regarding the feasibility of the stolen credit card scenario, I didn't steal a credit card or see anyone passing numbers around, but I went to UMass in 2004 and credit card companies were allowed to roam campus and get as many freshmen to sign up as they could in exchange for UMass-branded shirts, towels, etc. SO many of my friends signed up a credit card to get a stupid shirt. I was pretty close to doing it myself because I wanted the UMass-branded gear. I don't know any specifics about the stolen credit card Maura used, but I can 100% see students passing around the numbers of these cards. I didn't even know what a credit card was or how it worked back then. I could honestly see myself throwing the card in the trash once I got it in the mail. Just had to add my 2004 female UMass student perspective here!
I went to a state school in upstate New York during the same time petiod. Credit card companies the same stuff there. It was very common tactic in the early 2000s.
Renner's theory here is insane. ockham's razor, James and Co. this theory where she has successfully remained hidden with a possible child is so outlandish it really doesn't even deserve a comment.
Wait? She's pregnant, but she had birth control pills in her car? How does Renner justify that? If she was pregnant, why would she have the birth control pills with her? I just don't believe this theory at all.
Karen's original e-mail, edited only to remove her e-mail address, retained by the Murray family: "Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:39 , 'K McNamara' sent: I visited Maura's website for the first time tonight. I am so touched by the photo of her and her Dad hiking. I have many like that of my daughter and my husband. I was haunted by her disappearance for a very long time. I travel Rt 112 from Lincoln to Woodsville and back almost daily, often returning after dark. I saw her car that night. I arrived immediately after the police did. In fact the same police car that responded passed me twice that night - first on Goose Lane (Swiftwater RD) and then again on Rt 112. I remember mentioning it to my Dad - he said "How did you know it was the same police car?" Easy - it was car 001. It appears as though it went the wrong way on Rt 112 and doubled back and then passed me. I am acutely aware of my surroundings when traveling that road since there is no cell phone service from farms on Swiftwater Rd to the Beaver Pond by Lost River. When I saw the police car stopped I had a strong intuitive feeling I should stop to help - but then I figured they are the police with radios, neighbors have phones and my cell service does not even work. I continued on toward Lincoln. I took note - as I always do - of how many cars pass me and where. I know I did NOT see anyone walking along the road that night. I heard the police were questioning folks along the road mid morning a few days later. I was so surprised they did not have a road block during that time of night ESPECIALLY THE following week on the same night. Since I did not see anything I figured I knew nothing. Then I realized the fact that I saw nothing could be helpful. I called the police and told them how many cars and where I saw them. I no longer remember that info now - although I can tell you where and how many cars I passed tonight on my way home. I was haunted for a very long time, wanted to help with the search, wanted to reach out to the family. Instead I have prayed, wished, hoped and tried to intuitively know where to look. I came up with no answers, but always scouring the roadside and river with my eyes on my way to work and home again hoping for an answer. I feel like I was so close to where she was but ........ I never saw her. I am so sorry. I will continue to pray for her and her family. Peace, Karen McNamara" There you go. She's said 001 all along James. Story has never changed. She doesn't specifically say SUV in the e-mail, but if you recall in our interview in episode 30 I asked her about this for just this reason.
Thanks Alex, with one comment you answered many debates long before they could even start in this comment section. I commented before how lucky some of us are to have you dropping this "fact bombs" right when we need them. Keep up the good work!
Ferdinand former Chief Williams is not deceased. He lives/lived at 445 Bradley Hill Road. He's alive and well. Comments like those you have made, do nothing but perpetuate rumor & bullshit. When contributing to a thread that involves a missing person, make your comments useful and factual. Otherwise, you're just another troll.
Renner's scenario is the least plausible out of any that has been presented on this case. Why would an educated woman like Maura leave behind her family and her education to raise a child with no visible means of support? Why would she put her family, especially her father through this nightmare? It just doesn't make any sense. His attempt to discredit Witness A falls on deaf ears, as far as I'm concerned. She was articulate and believable and gave a convincible account of what she witnessed that night. The local and state agencies involved dropped the ball on this investigation. The FBI should have taken over this case.
Then again, why would an educated woman like Maura be driving to who-knows-where, on this road, at night in the winter, in a car that's running on 3 cylinders? Not much good sense in all that!
I don't have a strong opinion on Renner one way or the other but I find it interesting that in ep 6 he said Billy was a good, respectable guy, etc. but now says he was a bad guy (which he always seemed to be a sketchy jerk). Secondly, no domestic violence facility, esp one who assits a young woman to get away from her abuser would betray that confidence. Period.
I can't say I enjoyed this episode. Lance got so angry at James that he began just personally attacking his opinions, denying any logic behind his arguments. I didn't like how Renner spoke about Witness A and John Smith either. Seems like the only clear-minded person in this conversation was Tim. Rumours about other students stealing credit card numbers and the whole approach to speculation really surprised me here. I really wish you could take a deep breath before you say something pointless and stupid, Lance, because you tend to do so way too often in this podcast.
I'm just saying, after listening to this episode twice, Renner's theory makes an awful lot of loose ends tie together. Personally I've always wondered if her being pregnant had anything to do with it, but never like Renner puts forward. He makes a pretty compelling case.
These small town cops are really unprofessional and really have no clue how to investigate such a dynamic and complex case like this. A bunch of dummies running the investigation and should be turned over to the FBI.
do you have a criminal justice degree? Have you investigated a crime from start to finish as part of your employment? Please enlighten everyone how you would do things correctly
Its been awhile since i have listened to this. I believe Renner knows exactly what hes doing when he peppers little words in Like affair. Good on Lance for pointing it out and questioning it.
If he doesn't think she was abducted, why does he keep using the term "crime scene"? If he's so convinced she's alive and well, then it's not a crime scene.
Presumably because she was drinking and driving and also because leaving the scene of an accident is a crime. So he is probably just using the term "crime scene" to reference the crash area...
As I suspected earlier, Renner is a liar and might even be getting paid to spread doubt on the case. Now he is trying to extricate himself from the case because he knows he's made a fool out of himself and discredited himself and no one is buying his baloney anymore.
Idk if Renner is an inherently bad guy, but it's clear he has committed to his theory and has blinders on to any other possibility. His mind is made up. I'm not convinced by his theory, but he does raise some good points.
I apologize I just can't stop commenting this guy doesn't know what he's talking about ..it is not illegal for her to do that if there was no custody order in standing which clearly there wasn't cuz it was an unborn child the mother has every right to go to Timbuktu if she so pleases it is not against the law there was no custody order. period. and upon her return bill would have to prove paternity you can't just take custody of a child that there's no proof is yours wow this guy wow.
I think Renner could be on to something as far as his conclusion but I think his theory about how it played out is off base. Maura crashed and was there alone, long enough for people to see her as well as long enough for Atwood to be seen driving by and talking to her. Kinda feel like this would rule out a lead driver who turned around and grabbed her that quickly without being seen. Seems more plausible that she had to book it out of the area and hook up with a ride somewhere else. I don't think there was a tandem driver but more likely, someone was waiting in a switch car to help get her away. I seem to remember that there was some unknown phone call between Maura and someone that pinged on rte 93 in NH during the time of the crash. Could have possibly been her contact for this alleged women's network who then arranged for the switch driver to pick Maura up somewhere. That's assuming this theory is valid...
I remember in an earlier video he stated that Maura was in Canada. I say no way. There are motion detectors at the border. As a Canadian citizen, it is damn near impossible to cross the border here illegally and not be detected, let alone assume a fake Canadian Social Insurance Number. If she did, she’s working under the table somewhere and Canada Revenue Agency would have found her by now. Canadian authorities are dogged in pursuing people for taxes. If you have a Canadian SIN and aren’t filing returns, they are coming for you and asking questions.
I've been thinking along this line for a while. What if after the accident and talking to the bus driver she decided to run down the road for a while so as to avoid talking to the police. She was probably drinking and she had had a few accidents in the few preceding days and just didn't want to talk to the police again, particularly in another state. I live close to a state line and I take care not to be noticed when I cross the line. Then she was accidentally hit and killed by another driver, someone with their own reasons for not wanting police contact. This person then puts her in his vehicle, goes home, digs a hole and stays quiet. Maybe someone with a police record, a dislike of cops or they were out driving while drinking.
why didnt maura search for ways to start a new life somewhere. if she was running away, there would be search engine clues about starting a new life, but we dont see that anywhere.
So, iI have mixed feelings on Renner's theory. If she was pregnant, by Bill, abuse or not I do not know if Maura would have voluntarily run off. My guess is she would have run to her parents, especially Dad for refuge. And Dad would have moved heaven and earth to protect her and a grandchild. Also, if she was abused I am not sure if she would have run away with the help of a private battered woman's service that would have helped her disappear. I am a survivor of abuse and I did (during that time) discuss with a similiar agency hiding from him. And you have to cut yourselves off totally. I don't think she would have done that. She and her dad were too close. Now the internet searches for pregnancy info---who is to say she wasn't confided in by a friend who was pregnant. They are talking in Maura's room, Maura gets up and says "well before you panic let's look some stuff up online."
Hold the bus ! It was said, she is an adult possibly has a kid and simply does not want to be found ! That's her right ! Really ? So, let me see if I understand..... She can be involved in a hit and run, have a stolen credit card number to buy pizzas... Multiple accidents... And she just leaves ? No one has the right to pursue or apprehend her for any legal questioning ? She just leaves and seemingly can not be located ? Case closed ? Well that is a very interesting take on this situation.... Not sure how someone can hide without being found or located by at least one of several agencies looking ? Anyone ?
Great job guys T.Y. for you're awareness on the missing N.H. VT. teens. Very disturbing and yes we all demand answers and with as much awareness A.P. hope to get them. T.Y. good folks peace love from CA.
one other thing battered women shelters are usually for women who reside with their abusive spouse or boyfriend and need somewhere to go to be safe she lived a zillion miles away from the alleged abuser she wouldn't need to go to a shelter this is absurd
It's impossible for a tandem driver in front of Maura to pick her up. The scenario with Butch all but confirms it. He would have seen a car on the road before his stop to Maura's crashed vehicle. He would have reported that. And, if by some miracle the tandem driver theory is correct from Renner's point of view, then he/she showed up after the Butch scene, which would be incredibly lucky. Or, the tandem driver waited until he left before picking Maura up. That doesn't make sense, because if I saw a vehicle crashed that involved a friend, I would be concerned and not just hangout until an opening is clear. I'd immediately check to see if her she was okay, UNLESS the wreck was intentional, and if so, which I don't think it is, Maura or her friend could not predict who else would be driving the same road at the same time, let alone knowing Butch's work schedule and knowing when he would be heading home from work. It's illogical to assume that tandem driver theory.
I agree with Renner that the 001 conspiracy is not very likely to be true, but I don’t know if I buy his theory that Maura never told her dad or sisters where she’s been this whole time and somehow managed to mastermind a perfect disappearance off the grid for herself and a kid. Unfortunately I think the most likely scenario is that she isn’t alive anymore. As to why she left the car accident scene and what caused her death? I still have no idea. If she was drinking and driving, evading the cops makes sense. But she couldn’t have gotten far, so where is she? I appreciate that this podcast gives us so many different people’s theories. But it still leaves me wondering what on earth happened. I hope she’s found one way or the other for her family’s sake.
Now wait a minute! Didn't James Renner say before that he thought her dad helped her? Sometimes he acts like he believes Billy at times and other times he doesn't? He is making accusations against John Smith and Karen that he doesn't even know about. He wants all this proof of things that people have said. Yet he goes off of people who say they witnessed what happened, where is that proof? We are just supposed to believe James Renner and no one else? James is all over the place.
Emily Kay forreal!!!!! That’s exactly what I was gonna say....he’s on the Rausch’s side when it’s convenient for him but then when it’s not, he’s not! I’m sorry I’m not tryna be a hater on here I love Tim and Lance and I think they are doing great work with this but not James Renner - I think that he’s arrogant, overassumptive and makes extremely asinine statements
Tim & Lance, I love your show. I have watched all 42 episodes. However, I was almost embarrassed by the way Lance kept attacking James' point of view. James' theory seems very plausible to me. One thing I do know for fact, eye witness testimony is not always reliable...sometimes it is just plain wrong. Many times when James made a statement Lance challenged the legitimacy and source of his statement, but when James asked Lance to site sources of where his information came from it was shrugged off. Example, Witness A statements...I believe James when he says that it was 2015 when she gave the specifics of vehicle 001. Anyway, I love your show, but it this video I think Lance was unfair to James. If you want more specifics I will gladly provide them. Reddy Goslin
I concur. These guys are a joke honestly. No one has more proof than the next but they will argue over who is right when they still haven't solved the case or found a body so obviously they aren't that good. They have done no investigation of their own they save money by going on hearsay and swearing it's the truth. I honestly think she is dead and no one in the case will find her but maybe by accident a hunter or hiker may come upon her remains one day and she can finally get away from these ppl who haunt her even in death. It's appalling.
They’re gunning for an interview with Fred Murray. I don’t know if they ever got one, but I think the argument style of Lance is transparently opportunistic. It’s obvious he doesn’t even believe it.
re: stolen credit cards In 2005 I worked for a fast food restaurant. There was a group that came through the drive-thru, trying to pay with credit. It was reported stolen. (Belonged to a man). I think I just said to them that the card wasn't working. They sped away. The credit card speculation and college student mentality is pointless in this. She's never acted like anything but a typical college student who might not have completely liked UMASS. But that's inappropriate to comment on as I am not her or in her mind.
Totally & completely disagree with Renner!!! From all that I have heard & learned from this case, it just doesn't fit, in my opinion!! I also believe foul play is involved somehow, that truly seems the most likely scenario, again, in my opinion...
Renner's little narrative illustrating how a tandem driver could have picked up MM at the scene rings true to me. I have often tried to come up with scenarios in which MM is able to completely disappear so QUICKLY. Maybe my imagination is limited, but I have only ever been able to come up with 3 basic ways: 1) A friend gets to the scene within minutes; she quickly jumps in the car & off they go. No preliminaries necessary. Any other scenario in which MM enters another vehicle at the scene would have required too much time (questioning, explaining, fighting, resisting--whatever). 2) She grabs a few essential items from her car, then runs off down the darkened road. 3) Stealth alien abduction. ;-) Personally I tend to go with #2, thinking she wanted to evade the cops. She takes off double-time down a road to where it's good & dark; then cuts off into the woods. (but I do sway towards Renner's side frequently) While I'm here let me ask a question: When did Butch Atwood arrive; how long was he there; did Faith W. or any other witness observe Butch & bus interacting with MM? In all my reading/listening to this case, I still haven't been able to learn this.
Supporting this idea is the fact she told Atwood that she did not need help, as if she already had a plan. She then continues East up the road (as verified by dogs) in the direction that a tandem car ahead of her as James suggests would be returning to pick her up. She gets in the car and off they go. She may have even planned to ditch the car. Perhaps that's why she needed a tandem driver. Has it ever been fully explained how she managed to spin out on a dry road? Doesn't seem this theory is any more or less far-fetched than the idea of a cover-up by multiple witnesses and LE, or a perfectly timed opportunistic abduction.
@@donnakutac7113 I was convinced that Forcier killed Maura- for about a day. Then I listened to MindShock's podcast and went back to being open to all possibilities.
Lance, Why does it matter if there were other college kids in America that use stolen credit card numbers? She got caught. Why does the fact that other students might or might not do the same dishonest behavior. Reddy Goslin
I love you,Renner, but I don't think Maura is hiding out. I do thank you for sharing the information about the location she Vanished from BC I envisioned a wooded area easy to get lost and parish in . I honestly don't know what happened to Mara.
You clearly don't understand abuse of any kind. Any obviously don't understand what pregnancy does to your mind and body either. Witness A doesn't have to be lying to wrong, she believes she saw what she saw, but without corroboration it doesn't mean much. It seems naive to put so much faith in that account. The Baileys in the morning has been well known for years, it makes me question how much you have researched about this. Disregarding what I believe happened, I think James won this exchange. However there was something weirdly personal about this podcast, like you had some kind of beef with James or you wanted to discredit him. Maybe you are trying to get the interview with Fred, it appeared there was an ulterior motive.
C D Renner's hypothesis is the best of those I've heard so far. I was a late comer to this case, and even later in reading blogs/podcasts, and I too had speculated the presence of a tandem driver who could quickly extract her. I don't believe the tandem driver had to go down the road too far; it could have even stalled and watched from a distance and monitored the situation before swooping in. The short time between neighbor interaction and her complete disappearance by the time police arrive (to say nothing of the preparation of the trip itself that suggests something's already up) make quick extraction by a known companion more reasonable than the probability of a scene-causing struggle and abduction by an opportunist who would have had to have had as much incredible luck in spotting their victim as they did in amazingly assessing the viability of the victim in the first place, and ascertaining that first response wasn't right around the corner, as it were, and then actually executing the abduction with flawless success. And the only way a known companion would have been anywhere near (save incredible coincidence) is if Murray et al. were indeed traveling in tandem.
Thanks James for your hard work!!! We know John Smith has an anti police agenda. I don't agree with everything Renner says, or his conclusions.. but his work on the case is undeniable.
So the local cops are shady as fuck but if we question it, we all have an anti police agenda. Regardless of anyone's agenda, the cops did not handle the investigation properly, that part does not change. If we question them on their investigative skills, we have an anti police agenda. Go ahead, trust whoever you want because of their profession. Sorry, I don't. I judge people based on what they do, not what job they have. It can go both ways. We can over trust people based on their profession. We are all human with the power to harm people. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. You can find criminals in every single profession. When someone goes missing for over 13 years and the cops haven't found anything, why the fuck would you NOT question them? A good investigator investigates everything. They leave no possibility out. If you are not going to add any helpful input besides immature accusations that dull a person's reputation, move along.
@@garrettlatham2764 no one seems to put nose to nose as well as having access to the budsons info. How'd he come across that? Then he goes Mia to a "hotel" yep
I wonder how differently this whole thing might have turned out if Maura's family had just come forward with the truth and said, "We love her, but she had a lot of problems. She is a very troubled girl and we are extremely concerned for her safety" instead of "She's the best girl ever. Not a problem in the world. Not a worry in her head or a misdead ever by this wonderful beautiful girl"?
Regarding tandem driver: How far away could another driver be away from the wreck scene and not be noticed? Perhaps the driver saw she was no longer behind them, turned off at the closest road to sit and wait for her to catch up.... and/or used that road to turn around to go back and see where she went. Only thing about this is, after finding her, they'd have to turn back around AGAIN and continue on to their destination and not be seen. Unless...they backed up in reverse, picked her up, and sped off continuing to their destination. But that's dark, dangerous and surely someone would've seen their rear red lights lit up. If the tandem driver was behind her, that'd be an easier explanation about how quickly she could've left the scene. But then who did the neighbor see by the car, trunk, etc? Eyewitness accounts aren't always correct especially late at night, in the dark, but Witness A was so believable. Ughhhh so aggravating 😳😩
I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Voltaire. I really dislike the way alot of you attack James Renner he is a human beeing and he is entitled to have his opinions and you have all the right to disagree. You should all know better really than just throw dirt at another human beeing just for not sharing your exact views! After all I am pretty sure he did not kill Maura or hurt her in anyway shape or form! Many of you should be ashamed of yourself! What happend to common decency and respect?
kausius Did you even listen to the interview? Renners character assassination of witness A and John Smith was worse than anything said in the comments. You defence of him is laughable even with your fancy quote attached. Renner has never shown the Murray fam decency or respect.
What if it turned out that Maura secretly contacted James and told her she's all good and have him promise her to tell this theory that she's alive and doesn't wanna be found, that's why James is so confident. Haha, wishful thinking
Is it possible the phone call at work where she became comatose was from her medical doctor's office confirming a pregnancy test was positive? The conversation about pregnancy comes from where, guessing? She was on birth control so why assume she's pregnant? If anything, you'd think it would be the opposite, if she's been in so many accidents and really drank as much as it's been said, with all that stress it SEEMS she'd be under, you wouldn't think a baby could prosper and grow in all those situations. Extreme stress causes miscarriages.
Well I was literally tortured and nearly murdered multiple times by my partner through my entire last pregnancy- happy healthy kid with the sweetest and cheekiest nature....
I just watched kendal raes video and she says she took her birth control why would she be taking it if she was pregnant also if she was on bc how did she get pregnant??
I don't think it's unusual for a nursing student to search the effects of drinking during pregnancy. Think about it, she was studying nursing. She could've been doing research.
yeah I care so much about my unborn child that I'm going to take off and leave everything behind and staged a disappearance yet I'm going to risk drinking a cup of red wine a day regardless of if doctors think it's okay or not yeah that sounds logical
This may be a "taboo" comment, but it has to be considered, and that is was there an incestuous relationship between Fred Murray and his daughter Maura ? I often wonder about this ? She reminds me of a girl who's tormented, she drinks a lot, has a lot of sex with different people, and also steals things. ( credit card #'s / makeup) I did know a girl that went thru this, and behaved exactly the same, and she was a huge drinker as well. If this was the case, as I have known women that have had incest with their fathers, and they never wanted to see them again, and would prefer never to see them again. I can't say that's true for all women, but it would be a good reason for Maura to want to disappear. Also, I believe Renner said in one of his past blogs, that Maura had placed a call to a lady "social worker", that dealt in family domestic abuse cases, so I do wonder about this ?? I guess we'll never know ?? I believe this lady dealt in incestuous cases. If this is true, and Maura did contact this lady, it sheds new light to me, on this case. To me, Maura's behavior, has all the trappings of this possibility ?? With this being said, I don't believe Fred Murray is involved in her murder ( if she was) or her disappearance. He may have been the one she was running from though ? I do wonder ?
True Crime Addict was just a bitching good read...Thanx James...Going to the White Moutains this autumn and will crack open a Yuengling (which you can't get in the genital wart of the midwest) and say a prayer for the indelible spirit, whether on this side of soil or the next, that is the ravishing mythos of Maura Murray...TCA compelled me to read the Amy book which I greatly enjoyed... lauded or lambasted keep shoveling thoughts brother .... "The single thing proves over and over again to be unimportant, but the possibility of every single thing reveals something about the nature of the world." Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus...
I think the point around 47 min was , if alive and has a 13 yr old kid, what is she telling it about her family etc? True story: I had a friend throughout elem school who in 5th grade was abruptly moved away with her brother and mom to escape her father. (Sidenote: Her mother was a pretty big presence in the community before the move.) NO ONE knows where they are or what names they might have. A few have thought over the years they maybe moved to the Louisiana coast. But no one has seen any of them. This was an 11 yr old (brother was 8 I believe) who understood (Im assuming) why she needed to take on a new identity etc. I'm not sure I believe this since I find it terribly difficult to believe a nursing student would have to google alcohol + baby and such things, and I cannot see a woman with limited $$ purchasing alcohol.
John, you are by far the most credible person we've heard from. I'm sorry to hear people spout lies and say that you've tainted a witness when that's clearly not the case. James Renner is a fucking moron.
Dena Cooper I couldn't agree more. I respect John and all the work he's done trying to solve what happened to Maura. I can tell he's doing it because he truly cares not because he has something to hock. You don't stay involved for as long as he has if it's not from the heart. There's always haters. Best to ignore them.
Clint Harting is, by far, the most credible person we have heard from. Smith is a conspiracy theorist who has somehow convinced Lance and Tim to join his and Alex C.'s cult.
The interviews with boyfriend Billy and his mother, make my blood run cold.... there is a ton of oppression and over bearing happening there.... I sense, power and control by Billy and a mother who enables him all the way. In fact he barely spoke during the whole interview...hiding behind his Mama... Maura may have discovered something about Billy and perhaps the telephone call from her sister the night before, which left her quite upset, that may all be tied into her trip into the mountains. The place where she could go to think, to find her own resolve and be able to regroup her own thoughts and make better decisions with a little time and space. I don't believe she was pregnant as I mentioned before that was probably part of her nursing studies. I would hate to think that anyone, after the fact, say of my own disappearance, tried to connect the dots based on any of my internet searches. God help them... Checking on condo with two or three bedrooms, perhaps because it was a place she had stayed before more than trying to accommodate anyone else besides herself. She liked that area, and she found solace there. You don't need more reason than that. The accident, well that sure was not planned, and she went down the road to the East which was the direction she had been going in before the car went off the road. She did not take the offer of help of neighbors in that area... she had also hit her head on the windshield, perhaps still shaken from the impact and the bump. She gets out and walks, headed for the next town or the nearest pay phone, which she knew existed, she knew that whole entire area... She was quite capable of being independent. Someone stopped her from making that call for help. Someone heard the call from the neighbors and the bus driver and swooped in on the opportunity.
Here's some trails Left in trouble from hitting the kid at college, dad comes toswap cars until she buys a car, wrecks dad's, goes to drive off to get away (kid she hit is in a coma investigations taking place so she wanted to get away) wrecks and runs off from police dies in the woods 2. Found out she is pregnant, goes to meet the has guys she's side piecing with, they plan to.go.to.the mu cabin, she wrecks he picks her up, she says she is pregnant he doesn't like it and kills her. 3 same as 1 but someone abducted her on the streets. A frame house has some theories.
I think Renner and John got caught up I'm the coolaid (is that spelled right?) And started to enjoy the "fame". I think it starts as a wanting to help then turns. John comes off as telling his theory instead of listening to witness like with the Atwells (guy mowing lawn).
Jr is full of ish- btw I’m a survivor and I’ve ran when I was pregnant, I’d NEVER hang around! I’m extremely disappointed in all of you in this episode o really would expect much better of you all but jr and mic guy is extremely close minded and uneducated on how victims and survivors would act in this situation. Oh I’ve also vanished for 6mths and No one could contact me, reach me or find me. I also happen to be several years sober I was DIAGNOSED alcoholic because I WAS TAKING SIPS OF ALCOHOL EVERYTIME I OPENED MY FRIDGE DAILY! educate yourselves, maybe ask women who have been pregnant and in a dangerous situation ffs and renner you live in your head and you obviously don’t like anyone disagreeing with you! Try thinking outside the dmn box! Like who said Maura wasn’t driving front in another car and and the car owner was driving her car and deliberately slams it to stage the accident then switched seats with Maura in the functional car?
Every theory is possible to some extent. But as John Smith put it, some of them get a one-half of one percent probability. I think that if this is ever solved, the truth will be a shocker. A major break is needed. A confession. Or a surprise credible witness. Or Maura is found!
In defense of James whether it is true or not this to me is the best possible outcome. Another argument if you will, if she is living in Canada, this is actually a lot easier to do that most people realize, if you don't believe me, I would check out a CBC podcast "Looking for Mike"
Maybe she went that far to get an abortion? And that’s why she might have been looking into some place so far away. And before she could get to a hotel she drank too much and someone tried to help her she grabbed her. This is the first I’ve ever heard of her maybe being pregnant. She did seem like a private girl and maybe she felt like she put too much stress on her dad. I do hope she is ok living. But unfortunately unlikely. No one will ever know the truth behind what happened to her. It could have been 7 million reasons.
I'm a young woman, approximately Maura's age, and I have gone off on my own without telling anyone. For a day to a town 100km away, but granted, it was never an overnight stay. Thanks for having James back on because it was his book that turned me onto this case. So thank you.
Renner openly admits he is telling people to NOT call police if they have information about Maura. And he wants John Smith charged with obstruction? LOL. I can't with this guy.
I honestly never liked Renner or agreed with his theories but hes actually making alot of good points in this video especially about the police conspiracy.
I hope they do some other episodes like this (the more aggressive interview) but with John Smith as well as Clint Harding.
I personally think James Renner is delusional. "Maura has a kid and doesn't want to be found." Sorry Mr. Renner you're not a woman, so maybe that is why you're unable to see beyond your hypothesis. Having a child out of wedlock is NOT a viable reason to disappear or using your term "disappear". She was too young and too involved with her family and friends to go away forever. It would be very difficult to move and live a life in hiding. She had no money either.
There are communes that people with no money can go live on.
A girl , this close to her dad that will take her to buy alcohol and she will drive his car drunk, wreck it and run to him would NEVER run away because she was pregnant. Rediculous idea that makes no sense. We all need a few minutes to be alone , but being pregnant would never make a girl that really depends on her dad for moral support leave her life without spilling her guts to her dad. Seriously drunk driving is worse than being pregnant, this isn't the 1950s when they sent pregnant girls into hiding!! And where the hell would she be right now?! No job, no education, no money... Rediculous scenerio...
The info on pregnancy and alcohol consumption, was quite possibly part of Maura's nursing program and studies.
As far as Maura being pregnant goes, if I just found out & didn't want to share it I DEFINITELY wouldn't ask a fellow nursing student or anyone about the effects of alcohol I'd google it.
Yeah, that's why she googled info. about drinking alcohol and being pregnant, so no one would have known. IF she was.
***** Yeah with her major being nursing I'm sure she googled a lot of things. I was trying to say IF she was pregnant I'm pretty sure she wouldn't ask a fellow classmate she'd google it to keep it a secret or from ppl suspecting it.
That's my point.
so weird that the river nearby is called 'lost river' .. everything about this case is just so ridiculously weird.
i think james is a smart guy who knows a lot about criminal activity but i think hes wrong about this... that fiction writer is coming out ;)
He really doesn't know about criminal activity. Pretty much everything he says is wrong.
plus Cemetery road
willy wonka thought that too. Far fetched. It’s Billy. He did it. He had his own controlling motive.
@@gjh9299 Not really that weird. Lot of Cemetery Roads in the United States
I don't think Maura ran away...but if she did the tandem driver could have been someone from a shelter helping her, and not one of her friends. Someone working at a battered women's shelter would not talk about who they helped or how.
I think they would have a duty of care to at least tell police she is safe and well and prove it.
Survivors don't run, they stand up? I really love getting the perspective of a bunch of dudes that act like they understand what it is like to be abused female or in a terrible situation where you feel like there is no escape. Thanks guys.
H Robertson Are those experiences only women can have?
If you read my comment completely, I said abused female but elaborated further by stating a terrible situation of which there is no escape, which unfortunately happens all the time regardless of gender. Never mentioned gender in the second part as it was a blanket statement.
I was just clarifying.
Allen Ellsworth No worries! Sorry if my tone sounded curt, I am used to trolls in the comments! ☺
H Robertson Oh God me too.
Renner's theories are getting more and more absurd!
Yep, he got to the point where he just wanted to sell books
@@adamant5550for real
Also, if cops are involved and 001 is a part of it, he took her in. She died from a head injury, and they are covering it up. If he was drunk he wouldn't notice she would have a concussion or worse. Then they put the car in shop to clean up any DNA and to keep it off the road. That would take a few cops to be in on it.
Lance and Tim really went into this all guns blazing bless them.."crazy grandmother" love it ;)
I totally get why nobody likes James R. Bunch of speculations, some fantastic stories. The guy is arrogant as hell!
James Renner you're not logical. Why would you drive tandem in this old horrible car why not just drive together in the better car? James can't stand him. Sick of his accusations attacking other people's characters.
But then I ask myself why she would drive so far north in an old horrible car at all. She had to have a really compelling reason to do that.
It seems to me that James Renee is a bit obsessed with Maura Murray and his obsession has led to him to live in denial about her fate. Yes it is possible that she is alive, BUT almost 90% of missing cases of young women or any women of any age or race are murdered. That statistic might be wrong but from all of the cases I've ever heard of and investigated myself as an online sleuther most all of them are cases of murder not imprisonment or new identity. James sounds absolutely crazy to me.
Tights AF She got in a car with someone or was forced into a car. We know that from the sniffer dogs. Possibly by a following predator who possibly put the rag in her tailpipe.
At best the dog search is inconclusive. First, the dogs weren't brought in until two days later. Second, the dog handlers said at the beginning that they would probably only be able to follow the scent a short distance given the time gone by, weather conditions and road traffic. The findings are equally consistent with Maura crossing the road at that point and going down a side street into the forest to avoid being seen by the police. Fred Maury later complained that the police gave the dogs a new pair of gloves Maura only wore once or twice instead of her running shoes, so the dogs only had a weak scent to begin with.
Renner lost me way back when he said Maura was a sociopath like it was a fact. Totally irresponsible. That's not even bringing up what he's said about Maura's dad. The guy assumes WAY too much. I'm always wary of anyone who's got something to sell anyways.
Exactly. I was honestly on board with Renner and thought he was extremely knowledgable in the case until he made the comment that she was a Sociopath and honestly his book was derivative of that feeling. He twists the facts to make a more dramatic story line and it feels cheap and false.
She was a shitty driver can we all agree on that at least?
Do you realize how difficult it would be for a 21yr old girl even with a younger guy helping her to stay hidden for 12 years now! Do you realize how disciplined you'd have to be. We are talking about a 21yr old girl with millions of people all over the United States knowing about her. I'm not buying Renners conclusion.
Millions? Even if that is so, the vast majority would have forgotten in a day or so. I'd guess interested people only number in the thousands.
Not that hard. You leave, use a different name, change your hair colour a little maybe adjust your eyebrow shape get a quiet job in a sleepy rural town, find a nice partner become the homely type and no one will ever know even in a regular city also people she knew of they saw her by coincidence they probably wouldn’t recognise her because the brain goes into a form of shock and can’t comprehend what your seeing then later on your brain says “you’re being stupid”
It would be difficult NOW, and you assume it would be difficult then based on social media and everyone having access to social media and all sorts of news and information at the tip of your fingers, but back then social media was in its infancy. Certain demographics would have been late on the technology bandwagon too, especially in small towns.
Y'all boys are on a roll. NOT a James Renner fan,but he held his own Purdy good.I still think his ideas are bunk. Anywho,since all the networks are having bidding wars fighting over Renner at the moment here's a bidness proposal for all the big tv exes watching their future golden boy right now. How's about a buddy cop show with James Renner and John Smith? ala the good guys or dragnet the movie reboot,you know,like Jimmy renny says "something fun".
Regarding the feasibility of the stolen credit card scenario, I didn't steal a credit card or see anyone passing numbers around, but I went to UMass in 2004 and credit card companies were allowed to roam campus and get as many freshmen to sign up as they could in exchange for UMass-branded shirts, towels, etc. SO many of my friends signed up a credit card to get a stupid shirt. I was pretty close to doing it myself because I wanted the UMass-branded gear. I don't know any specifics about the stolen credit card Maura used, but I can 100% see students passing around the numbers of these cards. I didn't even know what a credit card was or how it worked back then. I could honestly see myself throwing the card in the trash once I got it in the mail. Just had to add my 2004 female UMass student perspective here!
I went to a state school in upstate New York during the same time petiod. Credit card companies the same stuff there. It was very common tactic in the early 2000s.
Renner's theory here is insane. ockham's razor, James and Co. this theory where she has successfully remained hidden with a possible child is so outlandish it really doesn't even deserve a comment.
Wait? She's pregnant, but she had birth control pills in her car? How does Renner justify that? If she was pregnant, why would she have the birth control pills with her? I just don't believe this theory at all.
Karen's original e-mail, edited only to remove her e-mail address, retained by the Murray family:
"Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:39 , 'K McNamara' sent:
I visited Maura's website for the first time tonight. I am so touched by the photo of her and her Dad hiking. I have many like that of my daughter and my husband. I was haunted by her disappearance for a very long time. I travel Rt 112 from Lincoln to Woodsville and back almost daily, often returning after dark. I saw her car that night. I arrived immediately after the police did. In fact the same police car that responded passed me twice that night - first on Goose Lane (Swiftwater RD) and then again on Rt 112. I remember mentioning it to my Dad - he said "How did you know it was the same police car?" Easy - it was car 001. It appears as though it went the wrong way on Rt 112 and doubled back and then passed me. I am acutely aware of my surroundings when traveling that road since there is no cell phone service from farms on Swiftwater Rd to the Beaver Pond by Lost River. When I saw the police car stopped I had a strong intuitive feeling I should stop to help - but then I figured they are the police with radios, neighbors have phones and my cell service does not even work. I continued on toward Lincoln. I took note - as I always do - of how many cars pass me and where. I know I did NOT see anyone walking along the road that night. I heard the police were questioning folks along the road mid morning a few days later. I was so surprised they did not have a road block during that time of night ESPECIALLY THE following week on the same night. Since I did not see anything I figured I knew nothing. Then I realized the fact that I saw nothing could be helpful. I called the police and told them how many cars and where I saw them. I no longer remember that info now - although I can tell you where and how many cars I passed tonight on my way home. I was haunted for a very long time, wanted to help with the search, wanted to reach out to the family. Instead I have prayed, wished, hoped and tried to intuitively know where to look. I came up with no answers, but always scouring the roadside and river with my eyes on my way to work and home again hoping for an answer. I feel like I was so close to where she was but ........ I never saw her. I am so sorry. I will continue to pray for her and her family.
Peace,
Karen McNamara"
There you go. She's said 001 all along James. Story has never changed. She doesn't specifically say SUV in the e-mail, but if you recall in our interview in episode 30 I asked her about this for just this reason.
Thanks Alex, with one comment you answered many debates long before they could even start in this comment section. I commented before how lucky some of us are to have you dropping this "fact bombs" right when we need them. Keep up the good work!
How did Renner find Kate Markopolous and Sara Alfieri. How was be able to approach all these witnesses and people who are closely involved.
fernand robichaud I'm thinking that too. After 13yrs WTF? was it Aldon?
Ferdinand former Chief Williams is not deceased. He lives/lived at 445 Bradley Hill Road. He's alive and well. Comments like those you have made, do nothing but perpetuate rumor & bullshit. When contributing to a thread that involves a missing person, make your comments useful and factual. Otherwise, you're just another troll.
Excuse the misspelling of your name, Fernand.
Renner always makes sure to say "this is my option" or "I'm purely speculating here" while John Smith talks as if all his theory's are pure fact.
@Alissa so why doesn’t John do the same?
Sorry, I think Renner has created a complete fantasy ending. He may have some elements right but in the end he's just a fabulist.
Renner's scenario is the least plausible out of any that has been presented on this case. Why would an educated woman like Maura leave behind her family and her education to raise a child with no visible means of support? Why would she put her family, especially her father through this nightmare? It just doesn't make any sense. His attempt to discredit Witness A falls on deaf ears, as far as I'm concerned. She was articulate and believable and gave a convincible account of what she witnessed that night. The local and state agencies involved dropped the ball on this investigation. The FBI should have taken over this case.
Then again, why would an educated woman like Maura be driving to who-knows-where, on this road, at night in the winter, in a car that's running on 3 cylinders? Not much good sense in all that!
The episode everyone has been waiting for 😅
I don't have a strong opinion on Renner one way or the other but I find it interesting that in ep 6 he said Billy was a good, respectable guy, etc. but now says he was a bad guy (which he always seemed to be a sketchy jerk). Secondly, no domestic violence facility, esp one who assits a young woman to get away from her abuser would betray that confidence. Period.
“There is no conspiracy” yet all of his conclusions have been total absurd conspiracy theory.
I can't say I enjoyed this episode. Lance got so angry at James that he began just personally attacking his opinions, denying any logic behind his arguments. I didn't like how Renner spoke about Witness A and John Smith either. Seems like the only clear-minded person in this conversation was Tim. Rumours about other students stealing credit card numbers and the whole approach to speculation really surprised me here. I really wish you could take a deep breath before you say something pointless and stupid, Lance, because you tend to do so way too often in this podcast.
I'm just saying, after listening to this episode twice, Renner's theory makes an awful lot of loose ends tie together. Personally I've always wondered if her being pregnant had anything to do with it, but never like Renner puts forward. He makes a pretty compelling case.
These small town cops are really unprofessional and really have no clue how to investigate such a dynamic and complex case like this. A bunch of dummies running the investigation and should be turned over to the FBI.
do you have a criminal justice degree? Have you investigated a crime from start to finish as part of your employment? Please enlighten everyone how you would do things correctly
@@franciscogonzales2123 I think any one of us with half a brain could have done a better job than the police in this case, to be fair.
So, according to Renner, is Maura living in the wilds raising her semi-feral wolf-child alone? Sorry, the guy gets more obnoxious as he goes along.
What OTHER things did Maura google other than that? What was the search question before AND after asking that particular question?
Its been awhile since i have listened to this. I believe Renner knows exactly what hes doing when he peppers little words in Like affair. Good on Lance for pointing it out and questioning it.
Great episode. I haven't gotten as deep into the history as y'all have but both sides made compelling arguments.
If he doesn't think she was abducted, why does he keep using the term "crime scene"? If he's so convinced she's alive and well, then it's not a crime scene.
Presumably because she was drinking and driving and also because leaving the scene of an accident is a crime. So he is probably just using the term "crime scene" to reference the crash area...
Great podcast, guys. Keep up the good work. Best, from London, England.
As I suspected earlier, Renner is a liar and might even be getting paid to spread doubt on the case. Now he is trying to extricate himself from the case because he knows he's made a fool out of himself and discredited himself and no one is buying his baloney anymore.
Idk if Renner is an inherently bad guy, but it's clear he has committed to his theory and has blinders on to any other possibility. His mind is made up. I'm not convinced by his theory, but he does raise some good points.
I apologize I just can't stop commenting this guy doesn't know what he's talking about ..it is not illegal for her to do that if there was no custody order in standing which clearly there wasn't cuz it was an unborn child the mother has every right to go to Timbuktu if she so pleases it is not against the law there was no custody order. period. and upon her return bill would have to prove paternity you can't just take custody of a child that there's no proof is yours wow this guy wow.
I think Renner could be on to something as far as his conclusion but I think his theory about how it played out is off base. Maura crashed and was there alone, long enough for people to see her as well as long enough for Atwood to be seen driving by and talking to her. Kinda feel like this would rule out a lead driver who turned around and grabbed her that quickly without being seen. Seems more plausible that she had to book it out of the area and hook up with a ride somewhere else.
I don't think there was a tandem driver but more likely, someone was waiting in a switch car to help get her away. I seem to remember that there was some unknown phone call between Maura and someone that pinged on rte 93 in NH during the time of the crash. Could have possibly been her contact for this alleged women's network who then arranged for the switch driver to pick Maura up somewhere. That's assuming this theory is valid...
your guest is Koo Koo
I remember in an earlier video he stated that Maura was in Canada. I say no way. There are motion detectors at the border. As a Canadian citizen, it is damn near impossible to cross the border here illegally and not be detected, let alone assume a fake Canadian Social Insurance Number. If she did, she’s working under the table somewhere and Canada Revenue Agency would have found her by now. Canadian authorities are dogged in pursuing people for taxes. If you have a Canadian SIN and aren’t filing returns, they are coming for you and asking questions.
No offence but this guy made the right choice switching to fiction writing because he's got a knack for spinning tall ass tales
I've been thinking along this line for a while. What if after the accident and talking to the bus driver she decided to run down the road for a while so as to avoid talking to the police. She was probably drinking and she had had a few accidents in the few preceding days and just didn't want to talk to the police again, particularly in another state. I live close to a state line and I take care not to be noticed when I cross the line. Then she was accidentally hit and killed by another driver, someone with their own reasons for not wanting police contact. This person then puts her in his vehicle, goes home, digs a hole and stays quiet. Maybe someone with a police record, a dislike of cops or they were out driving while drinking.
That theory has been put out repeatedly over the years.
why didnt maura search for ways to start a new life somewhere. if she was running away, there would be search engine clues about starting a new life, but we dont see that anywhere.
So, iI have mixed feelings on Renner's theory. If she was pregnant, by Bill, abuse or not I do not know if Maura would have voluntarily run off. My guess is she would have run to her parents, especially Dad for refuge. And Dad would have moved heaven and earth to protect her and a grandchild. Also, if she was abused I am not sure if she would have run away with the help of a private battered woman's service that would have helped her disappear. I am a survivor of abuse and I did (during that time) discuss with a similiar agency hiding from him. And you have to cut yourselves off totally. I don't think she would have done that. She and her dad were too close.
Now the internet searches for pregnancy info---who is to say she wasn't confided in by a friend who was pregnant. They are talking in Maura's room, Maura gets up and says "well before you panic let's look some stuff up online."
If she's still alive and not wanting to found, great! I'm perfectly content to believe that.
Hold the bus !
It was said, she is an adult possibly has a kid and simply does not want to be found !
That's her right !
Really ?
So, let me see if I understand.....
She can be involved in a hit and run, have a stolen credit card number to buy pizzas...
Multiple accidents...
And she just leaves ?
No one has the right to pursue or apprehend her for any legal questioning ?
She just leaves and seemingly can not be located ?
Case closed ?
Well that is a very interesting take on this situation....
Not sure how someone can hide without being found or located by at least one of several agencies looking ?
Anyone ?
Great job guys T.Y. for you're awareness on the missing N.H. VT. teens. Very disturbing and yes we all demand answers and with as much awareness A.P. hope to get them. T.Y. good folks peace love from CA.
What happen to the N.H..VT. Teens. Thanks
one other thing battered women shelters are usually for women who reside with their abusive spouse or boyfriend and need somewhere to go to be safe she lived a zillion miles away from the alleged abuser she wouldn't need to go to a shelter this is absurd
I think Renner made shit up for his book and when Tim and Lance call him out he sticks to his guns so he won't loose book sales
It's impossible for a tandem driver in front of Maura to pick her up. The scenario with Butch all but confirms it. He would have seen a car on the road before his stop to Maura's crashed vehicle. He would have reported that. And, if by some miracle the tandem driver theory is correct from Renner's point of view, then he/she showed up after the Butch scene, which would be incredibly lucky. Or, the tandem driver waited until he left before picking Maura up. That doesn't make sense, because if I saw a vehicle crashed that involved a friend, I would be concerned and not just hangout until an opening is clear. I'd immediately check to see if her she was okay, UNLESS the wreck was intentional, and if so, which I don't think it is, Maura or her friend could not predict who else would be driving the same road at the same time, let alone knowing Butch's work schedule and knowing when he would be heading home from work. It's illogical to assume that tandem driver theory.
what if she was searching alcohol effects on fetuses as a nursing research paper or project? just spouting thoughts...
Unpopular opinion… I love James Renner. He’s the only one that makes sense in all this.
I agree with Renner that the 001 conspiracy is not very likely to be true, but I don’t know if I buy his theory that Maura never told her dad or sisters where she’s been this whole time and somehow managed to mastermind a perfect disappearance off the grid for herself and a kid. Unfortunately I think the most likely scenario is that she isn’t alive anymore. As to why she left the car accident scene and what caused her death? I still have no idea. If she was drinking and driving, evading the cops makes sense. But she couldn’t have gotten far, so where is she? I appreciate that this podcast gives us so many different people’s theories. But it still leaves me wondering what on earth happened. I hope she’s found one way or the other for her family’s sake.
Now wait a minute! Didn't James Renner say before that he thought her dad helped her? Sometimes he acts like he believes Billy at times and other times he doesn't? He is making accusations against John Smith and Karen that he doesn't even know about. He wants all this proof of things that people have said. Yet he goes off of people who say they witnessed what happened, where is that proof? We are just supposed to believe James Renner and no one else? James is all over the place.
Emily Kay forreal!!!!! That’s exactly what I was gonna say....he’s on the Rausch’s side when it’s convenient for him but then when it’s not, he’s not! I’m sorry I’m not tryna be a hater on here I love Tim and Lance and I think they are doing great work with this but not James Renner - I think that he’s arrogant, overassumptive and makes extremely asinine statements
That part about eating the fruit roll up hat is the funniest thing I've heard all week
People are so deep into this case, they forget the obvious. It’s right in front of you.
You know what happened? Please share!
What is that? i'm interested in hearing this. For real.
@@jonathanc4166 me too
Tim & Lance, I love your show. I have watched all 42 episodes. However, I was almost embarrassed by the way Lance kept attacking James' point of view. James' theory seems very plausible to me. One thing I do know for fact, eye witness testimony is not always reliable...sometimes it is just plain wrong. Many times when James made a statement Lance challenged the legitimacy and source of his statement, but when James asked Lance to site sources of where his information came from it was shrugged off. Example, Witness A statements...I believe James when he says that it was 2015 when she gave the specifics of vehicle 001. Anyway, I love your show, but it this video I think Lance was unfair to James. If you want more specifics I will gladly provide them.
Reddy Goslin
Lance and Tim have been brainwashed by John Smith and Alex C.
I concur. These guys are a joke honestly. No one has more proof than the next but they will argue over who is right when they still haven't solved the case or found a body so obviously they aren't that good. They have done no investigation of their own they save money by going on hearsay and swearing it's the truth. I honestly think she is dead and no one in the case will find her but maybe by accident a hunter or hiker may come upon her remains one day and she can finally get away from these ppl who haunt her even in death. It's appalling.
They’re gunning for an interview with Fred Murray. I don’t know if they ever got one, but I think the argument style of Lance is transparently opportunistic. It’s obvious he doesn’t even believe it.
re: stolen credit cards
In 2005 I worked for a fast food restaurant. There was a group that came through the drive-thru, trying to pay with credit. It was reported stolen. (Belonged to a man). I think I just said to them that the card wasn't working. They sped away.
The credit card speculation and college student mentality is pointless in this. She's never acted like anything but a typical college student who might not have completely liked UMASS. But that's inappropriate to comment on as I am not her or in her mind.
Totally & completely disagree with Renner!!! From all that I have heard & learned from this case, it just doesn't fit, in my opinion!! I also believe foul play is involved somehow, that truly seems the most likely scenario, again, in my opinion...
Renner's little narrative illustrating how a tandem driver could have picked up MM at the scene rings true to me.
I have often tried to come up with scenarios in which MM is able to completely disappear so QUICKLY. Maybe
my imagination is limited, but I have only ever been able to come up with 3 basic ways:
1) A friend gets to the scene within minutes; she quickly jumps in the car & off they go. No preliminaries necessary.
Any other scenario in which MM enters another vehicle at the scene would have required too much time
(questioning, explaining, fighting, resisting--whatever).
2) She grabs a few essential items from her car, then runs off down the darkened road.
3) Stealth alien abduction. ;-)
Personally I tend to go with #2, thinking she wanted to evade the cops. She takes off double-time down a road
to where it's good & dark; then cuts off into the woods. (but I do sway towards Renner's side frequently)
While I'm here let me ask a question: When did Butch Atwood arrive; how long was he there; did Faith W. or
any other witness observe Butch & bus interacting with MM? In all my reading/listening to this case, I still
haven't been able to learn this.
Supporting this idea is the fact she told Atwood that she did not need help, as if she already had a plan. She then continues East up the road (as verified by dogs) in the direction that a tandem car ahead of her as James suggests would be returning to pick her up. She gets in the car and off they go. She may have even planned to ditch the car. Perhaps that's why she needed a tandem driver. Has it ever been fully explained how she managed to spin out on a dry road? Doesn't seem this theory is any more or less far-fetched than the idea of a cover-up by multiple witnesses and LE, or a perfectly timed opportunistic abduction.
@@donnakutac7113 I was convinced that Forcier killed Maura- for about a day. Then I listened to MindShock's podcast and went back to being open to all possibilities.
Lance, Why does it matter if there were other college kids in America that use stolen credit card numbers? She got caught. Why does the fact that other students might or might not do the same dishonest behavior.
Reddy Goslin
It’s being made a much bigger deal than it is. She stole like $80 or something using the credit card. It doesn’t matter to the case.
I love you,Renner, but I don't think Maura is hiding out. I do thank you for sharing the information about the location she Vanished from BC I envisioned a wooded area easy to get lost and parish in . I honestly don't know what happened to Mara.
Ghost light? Did he mean Gas Light? Not a very bright man.
You clearly don't understand abuse of any kind. Any obviously don't understand what pregnancy does to your mind and body either. Witness A doesn't have to be lying to wrong, she believes she saw what she saw, but without corroboration it doesn't mean much. It seems naive to put so much faith in that account. The Baileys in the morning has been well known for years, it makes me question how much you have researched about this. Disregarding what I believe happened, I think James won this exchange. However there was something weirdly personal about this podcast, like you had some kind of beef with James or you wanted to discredit him. Maybe you are trying to get the interview with Fred, it appeared there was an ulterior motive.
C D Renner's hypothesis is the best of those I've heard so far. I was a late comer to this case, and even later in reading blogs/podcasts, and I too had speculated the presence of a tandem driver who could quickly extract her. I don't believe the tandem driver had to go down the road too far; it could have even stalled and watched from a distance and monitored the situation before swooping in. The short time between neighbor interaction and her complete disappearance by the time police arrive (to say nothing of the preparation of the trip itself that suggests something's already up) make quick extraction by a known companion more reasonable than the probability of a scene-causing struggle and abduction by an opportunist who would have had to have had as much incredible luck in spotting their victim as they did in amazingly assessing the viability of the victim in the first place, and ascertaining that first response wasn't right around the corner, as it were, and then actually executing the abduction with flawless success. And the only way a known companion would have been anywhere near (save incredible coincidence) is if Murray et al. were indeed traveling in tandem.
Thanks James for your hard work!!! We know John Smith has an anti police agenda. I don't agree with everything Renner says, or his conclusions.. but his work on the case is undeniable.
So the local cops are shady as fuck but if we question it, we all have an anti police agenda. Regardless of anyone's agenda, the cops did not handle the investigation properly, that part does not change. If we question them on their investigative skills, we have an anti police agenda. Go ahead, trust whoever you want because of their profession. Sorry, I don't. I judge people based on what they do, not what job they have. It can go both ways. We can over trust people based on their profession. We are all human with the power to harm people. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. You can find criminals in every single profession. When someone goes missing for over 13 years and the cops haven't found anything, why the fuck would you NOT question them? A good investigator investigates everything. They leave no possibility out. If you are not going to add any helpful input besides immature accusations that dull a person's reputation, move along.
37:20...This guy is so full of it.
Williams or mckay?that's my unfortunate 2 cents worth. R.I.P to all victims of this malfeasance
I say mckay
@@garrettlatham2764 no one seems to put nose to nose as well as having access to the budsons info. How'd he come across that? Then he goes Mia to a "hotel" yep
McKay possibly with help of Floyd.
I wonder how differently this whole thing might have turned out if Maura's family had just come forward with the truth and said, "We love her, but she had a lot of problems. She is a very troubled girl and we are extremely concerned for her safety" instead of "She's the best girl ever. Not a problem in the world. Not a worry in her head or a misdead ever by this wonderful beautiful girl"?
Regarding tandem driver:
How far away could another driver be away from the wreck scene and not be noticed?
Perhaps the driver saw she was no longer behind them, turned off at the closest road to sit and wait for her to catch up.... and/or used that road to turn around to go back and see where she went.
Only thing about this is, after finding her, they'd have to turn back around AGAIN and continue on to their destination and not be seen.
Unless...they backed up in reverse, picked her up, and sped off continuing to their destination. But that's dark, dangerous and surely someone would've seen their rear red lights lit up.
If the tandem driver was behind her, that'd be an easier explanation about how quickly she could've left the scene. But then who did the neighbor see by the car, trunk, etc? Eyewitness accounts aren't always correct especially late at night, in the dark, but Witness A was so believable. Ughhhh so aggravating 😳😩
I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Voltaire. I really dislike the way alot of you attack James Renner he is a human beeing and he is entitled to have his opinions and you have all the right to disagree. You should all know better really than just throw dirt at another human beeing just for not sharing your exact views! After all I am pretty sure he did not kill Maura or hurt her in anyway shape or form! Many of you should be ashamed of yourself! What happend to common decency and respect?
kausius Did you even listen to the interview? Renners character assassination of witness A and John Smith was worse than anything said in the comments. You defence of him is laughable even with your fancy quote attached. Renner has never shown the Murray fam decency or respect.
Goomer Doctor totally agree with everything you said.
What if it turned out that Maura secretly contacted James and told her she's all good and have him promise her to tell this theory that she's alive and doesn't wanna be found, that's why James is so confident. Haha, wishful thinking
Is it possible the phone call at work where she became comatose was from her medical doctor's office confirming a pregnancy test was positive?
The conversation about pregnancy comes from where, guessing? She was on birth control so why assume she's pregnant? If anything, you'd think it would be the opposite, if she's been in so many accidents and really drank as much as it's been said, with all that stress it SEEMS she'd be under, you wouldn't think a baby could prosper and grow in all those situations. Extreme stress causes miscarriages.
You can get pregnant on birth control
Well I was literally tortured and nearly murdered multiple times by my partner through my entire last pregnancy- happy healthy kid with the sweetest and cheekiest nature....
Calling her at midnight? A clinic?
I just watched kendal raes video and she says she took her birth control why would she be taking it if she was pregnant also if she was on bc how did she get pregnant??
Could have been pretending to take it so as not to draw attention
Hmm... Renners theory is ok, imagine, that kid is soon 18 years old so what happends then?!
Why would they remain hidden...
I don't think it's unusual for a nursing student to search the effects of drinking during pregnancy. Think about it, she was studying nursing. She could've been doing research.
"I will eat a hat made of filet mignon". 😆😆👍
lance and tim are trying to keep a straight face.
yeah I care so much about my unborn child that I'm going to take off and leave everything behind and staged a disappearance yet I'm going to risk drinking a cup of red wine a day regardless of if doctors think it's okay or not yeah that sounds logical
Since when are women logical? We wouldn't be inundated by single mothers if they were
This may be a "taboo" comment, but it has to be considered, and
that is was there an incestuous relationship between Fred Murray
and his daughter Maura ? I often wonder about this ? She reminds
me of a girl who's tormented, she drinks a lot, has a lot of sex with
different people, and also steals things. ( credit card #'s / makeup)
I did know a girl that went thru this, and behaved exactly the same,
and she was a huge drinker as well.
If this was the case, as I have known women that have had incest
with their fathers, and they never wanted to see them again, and
would prefer never to see them again. I can't say that's true for all
women, but it would be a good reason for Maura to want to disappear.
Also, I believe Renner said in one of his past blogs, that Maura had
placed a call to a lady "social worker", that dealt in family domestic
abuse cases, so I do wonder about this ?? I guess we'll never know ??
I believe this lady dealt in incestuous cases. If this is true, and Maura
did contact this lady, it sheds new light to me, on this case.
To me, Maura's behavior, has all the trappings of this possibility ??
With this being said, I don't believe Fred Murray is involved in her
murder ( if she was) or her disappearance. He may have been the
one she was running from though ? I do wonder ?
True Crime Addict was just a bitching good read...Thanx James...Going to the White Moutains this autumn and will crack open a Yuengling (which you can't get in the genital wart of the midwest) and say a prayer for the indelible spirit, whether on this side of soil or the next, that is the ravishing mythos of Maura Murray...TCA compelled me to read the Amy book which I greatly enjoyed... lauded or lambasted keep shoveling thoughts brother .... "The single thing proves over and over again to be unimportant, but the possibility of every single thing reveals something about the nature of the world." Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus...
Anyone who spells thanks with an x must have the best taste in books.
I think the point around 47 min was , if alive and has a 13 yr old kid, what is she telling it about her family etc?
True story: I had a friend throughout elem school who in 5th grade was abruptly moved away with her brother and mom to escape her father. (Sidenote: Her mother was a pretty big presence in the community before the move.)
NO ONE knows where they are or what names they might have. A few have thought over the years they maybe moved to the Louisiana coast. But no one has seen any of them.
This was an 11 yr old (brother was 8 I believe) who understood (Im assuming) why she needed to take on a new identity etc.
I'm not sure I believe this since I find it terribly difficult to believe a nursing student would have to google alcohol + baby and such things, and I cannot see a woman with limited $$ purchasing alcohol.
Men saying they know women with custody issues and it wasn’t THAT BAD, pusses me off. You don’t know WHAT her situation was… smh.
John Smith is off his meds again... Way to flood the comment section & act like a 12 year old. #Triggered
John, you are by far the most credible person we've heard from. I'm sorry to hear people spout lies and say that you've tainted a witness when that's clearly not the case. James Renner is a fucking moron.
Dena Cooper I couldn't agree more. I respect John and all the work he's done trying to solve what happened to Maura. I can tell he's doing it because he truly cares not because he has something to hock. You don't stay involved for as long as he has if it's not from the heart. There's always haters. Best to ignore them.
Very well put!
Clint Harting is, by far, the most credible person we have heard from. Smith is a conspiracy theorist who has somehow convinced Lance and Tim to join his and Alex C.'s cult.
Opportunistic Dirtbag Can't wait until we get to discuss your worthwhile contributions. Oh yeah, you haven't made any.
The interviews with boyfriend Billy and his mother, make my blood run cold.... there is a ton of oppression and over bearing happening there.... I sense, power and control by Billy and a mother who enables him all the way. In fact he barely spoke during the whole interview...hiding behind his Mama...
Maura may have discovered something about Billy and perhaps the telephone call from her sister the night before, which left her quite upset, that may all be tied into her trip into the mountains. The place where she could go to think, to find her own resolve and be able to regroup her own thoughts and make better decisions with a little time and space.
I don't believe she was pregnant as I mentioned before that was probably part of her nursing studies.
I would hate to think that anyone, after the fact, say of my own disappearance, tried to connect the dots based on any of my internet searches. God help them...
Checking on condo with two or three bedrooms, perhaps because it was a place she had stayed before more than trying to accommodate anyone else besides herself. She liked that area, and she found solace there. You don't need more reason than that.
The accident, well that sure was not planned, and she went down the road to the East which was the direction she had been going in before the car went off the road. She did not take the offer of help of neighbors in that area... she had also hit her head on the windshield, perhaps still shaken from the impact and the bump. She gets out and walks, headed for the next town or the nearest pay phone, which she knew existed, she knew that whole entire area... She was quite capable of being independent. Someone stopped her from making that call for help.
Someone heard the call from the neighbors and the bus driver and swooped in on the opportunity.
Here's some trails
Left in trouble from hitting the kid at college, dad comes toswap cars until she buys a car, wrecks dad's, goes to drive off to get away (kid she hit is in a coma investigations taking place so she wanted to get away) wrecks and runs off from police dies in the woods
2. Found out she is pregnant, goes to meet the has guys she's side piecing with, they plan to.go.to.the mu cabin, she wrecks he picks her up, she says she is pregnant he doesn't like it and kills her.
3 same as 1 but someone abducted her on the streets. A frame house has some theories.
I think Renner and John got caught up I'm the coolaid (is that spelled right?) And started to enjoy the "fame". I think it starts as a wanting to help then turns. John comes off as telling his theory instead of listening to witness like with the Atwells (guy mowing lawn).
Why refer to the crash as a crime scene if you believe in the tandem driver theory.?
Because it's illegal to abandon your vehicle after an accident .
@@EsotericOccultist crime or mystamenor?
Jr is full of ish- btw I’m a survivor and I’ve ran when I was pregnant, I’d NEVER hang around! I’m extremely disappointed in all of you in this episode o really would expect much better of you all but jr and mic guy is extremely close minded and uneducated on how victims and survivors would act in this situation.
Oh I’ve also vanished for 6mths and No one could contact me, reach me or find me. I also happen to be several years sober I was DIAGNOSED alcoholic because I WAS TAKING SIPS OF ALCOHOL EVERYTIME I OPENED MY FRIDGE DAILY! educate yourselves, maybe ask women who have been pregnant and in a dangerous situation ffs and renner you live in your head and you obviously don’t like anyone disagreeing with you! Try thinking outside the dmn box! Like who said Maura wasn’t driving front in another car and and the car owner was driving her car and deliberately slams it to stage the accident then switched seats with Maura in the functional car?
Maybe she found out she is pregnant, but was not sure from who? She felt ashamed and disappear...
Great episode. I agree with him
I'm sorry but you guys sound just as ridiculous as Renner. Everyone is speaking as if they know what happened exactly.
wow i thought i was the only one who noticed this
Every theory is possible to some extent. But as John Smith put it, some of them get a one-half of one percent probability. I think that if this is ever solved, the truth will be a shocker.
A major break is needed. A confession. Or a surprise credible witness. Or Maura is found!
In defense of James whether it is true or not this to me is the best possible outcome. Another argument if you will, if she is living in Canada, this is actually a lot easier to do that most people realize, if you don't believe me, I would check out a CBC podcast "Looking for Mike"
Maybe she went that far to get an abortion? And that’s why she might have been looking into some place so far away. And before she could get to a hotel she drank too much and someone tried to help her she grabbed her. This is the first I’ve ever heard of her maybe being pregnant. She did seem like a private girl and maybe she felt like she put too much stress on her dad. I do hope she is ok living. But unfortunately unlikely. No one will ever know the truth behind what happened to her. It could have been 7 million reasons.
Did they check the computer at the work station, she was on the night before? There could be a lot of information there.
Renner's theory reminds me of the 911 energy beam weapon that vaporized the twin towers.