I completely agree with Eckstein here. People have gotten so wrapped up in whether or not she was kidnapped, killed by a serial killer, etc. that they've missed the most important clues that are based in fact. She was highly stressed, upset for some reason or another, had family issues, had legal issues, and was recently kicked out of West Point. Her actions point to someone intending to run away from these issues and potentially end her life.
LOVED Dr. Eckstein's points. I was nodding along with him throughout a lot of the video. He gave a clean, concise theory from a highly educated psychological standpoint that this podcast really needed.
Listening to this series another time 7 years later I really appreciate the work you guys put into this, especially all this time later. I know this sounds weird but Maura has been my hero all through junior college and undergraduate because I just thought of her. Constantly. Was driven by her hard work, her academic performance. Related to her in so many ways. Thought of her little smile & dimples randomly during days to keep me going. Sometimes felt a little bit better about my own driving record 😅😬🥰 but most of all was inspired by her. I know for a fact that you can be a charming 21 year old girl. Good in school hard working but have dark secrets. I know you guys have gone forward to cover other cases at this point but the dedication that went into this case was something I was so happy to see, and will probably go back and listen to a few times 🥰 y’all probably won’t see this because this video is 5+ years old, but wanted to share (a little late). I don’t have a theory on this case as I’ve never been to the NE area have no image of it, can’t imagine some of the simple nuances of life there so therefore couldn’t begin to predict how a girl could go missing thre. But very open to all avenues of theory.
PLEASE have more guests like this man tonight. He's eloquent, has the knowledge to back up his points, and doesn't run with wild assumptions. It also feels like many people want to make this case far more complex than it is. Yes, it is unlikely that someone is kidnapped/murdered but it is also unlikely that they disappear all together. I honestly think it's either suicide or a kidnapped/murder. Also why the heck do you guys treat Renner like he's a source to be taken seriously? There is hardly any base for her being a psychopath. Let it go. Let Renner go as well.
I am also wondering if maybe maura was possibly Bi-polar or dealing with addiction. Her behavior before she went missing (the fraud, the drinking, car crashing etc..) seems to point to that.
Alcohol issue for sure imo. I don't think she bought alcohol for a party when she skipped town. I think it was all for her. She was gonna be gone for a while and wanted to get her drink on.
I thought of that, too. Im listening to these out of order but on one video someone said something about her being schizophrenic. I don't think so. But bipolar is a possibility. Not enough info.
Seems more like schizophrenia to me. I’ve worked in an acute mental health assessment unit and it was full of young people around her age with similar stresses and behaviours.
Many take Renner's word for gospel with MM but he is sort of inflexible when it comes to his theories. He seems to bend the narrative and whatever evidence comes up to fit those theories. I think that's normal for someone who's been (for lack of a better word) obsessed with one case for so long, but for me that makes his judgment seem rigid and cloudy, and thus not very reliable
On the other side of the coin (and this is not an accusation against you) is that, particularly on social media, there are a lot of people out there that think they're smarter than everyone else, and can't stand the idea that what they might think is wrong or gets challenged. It's much easier to say "oh that person is a jerk, so therefore they're unreliable". Again not a lob at you, or a defense of him.
It honestly sounds like she was developing mental health issues and was afraid to/didn’t know how to get help. She was at the age more severe mental illnesses start to develop and was literally seeing her life fall apart around her. Kicked out of West Point for stealing, DUI, and potentially facing another DUI after the accident. She wasn’t a career criminal and likely didn’t know the overall consequences wouldn’t be too bad in the long run. She would have ended up with something like 30 days rehab, which she could do pre trial to help her defense, and mandatory AA, ignition interlock system, and supervised probation for 1-3 years. Stay out of trouble for another 5-7 years, then file for expungement and no one except jobs with the government can even see those records exist.
Best episode yet! Dr. Eckstein was a perfect source for perspective on this case. And I have to say I agree with him on his theory and his beliefs on her mental state. Using the term "psychopath" has never felt right to me. We've all had impulsive moments during times of stress or frustration, and with Maura, that on top of being a perfectionist or possibly an eating disorder could certainly drive her to do something crazy, like lying to get away for a week or even suicide. It just really fits here. I also appreciate them bringing up that the chance that a "dirtbag" or murderer driving by Maura in the 7-10 minutes she was alone, especially in a rural area would be one in a million! That's why I think another ground search or something for a body needs to be done.
+Lauren Williams Agreed, this episode has the kind of solid, practical evidence that a case like this screams out for, and not psychics, Bigfoot, or alien abduction. I also lean toward the scenario that Maura's body is in the woods somewhere near the scene of the crash because she either wanted to die or became so disabled by hypothermia, that after awhile in the woods, she may no longer have had the option to make choices.
+Lauren Williams Nobody ever said she was a psychopath. The term sociopath was used, and they are very different. He mentions, here, that they are interchangeable terms, but I've read and heard other psychologist distinguish between the two.
+Curt Rowlett (Strange Beacons) if the body is in the woods near the scene of the accident it would have been found long ago IMO - the dogs tracked away from the woods.
+Curt Rowlett (Strange Beacons) if the body is in the woods near the scene of the accident it would have been found long ago IMO - the dogs tracked away from the woods.
Yes! I was surprised looking at the satellite view of the crash area that it is not exactly wilderness. But certainly there is wilderness to the east if Maura got that far.
My hypothesis is similar to the guest on the show...i think that since she was a runner...drinking in the car...evidence of alcohol in the car..knowing the trouble she was going to get into..she ran..she perhaps got a ride to the mountains she loved....and like the psychologist said..hid and succumbed to the elements..because during that time of year..it was cold..if she was drinking..she was probably dehydrated. ..didnt want to be caught at a gas station..hid too long..maybe passed out and died...her remains are probably in the white mountain area but hasnt been searched too extensively. Like they said..being a 21 yea old at the same time maura was..with 300 bucks to my name..there is no way that i could have orchestrated a "new life" with no job skill..no license..without ever being heard from again. And the time frame of opportunity for someone to snatch her..kill her...and never be found..is HIGHLY unlikely. As much as people want to glamorize this case...I believe that she died running from a situation. Maybe she even ran into the woods and hurt herself and wasnt able to get up and get help..such as a broken leg..etc. I have been into this case since it happened..I am from the area..and I am 32 years old...and in college during that time. She was typical. We all drank .partied..while managing to keep up our gpa...the stress was too much..she prob did just wanna go up to the mountains and veg out ...shit happened..she had to run before the cops came..and had the abilitly...she hauled ass..into the woods..or into the mountains. They need to focus on the search for her remains in the mountain area..instead of interviewing and harassing pple that werent involved. Great podcast!
+Melissa Bridges This is my hypothesis as well. I think she realized she was about to get into deep shit with a DUI, panicked, and grabbed the bottle of Kahlua to escape into the woods. She was probably thinking she'd find a place to wait it out for a few hours or overnight, then go back to the car when she sobered up so that they couldn't charge her with a DUI. Maybe she decided drinking the bottle of Kahlua was a good way to pass the time and passed out and died from hypothermia (unfortunately I have a relatively who froze to death passed out drunk). Or as you pointed out, she may have injured herself. But I don't think she meant to commit suicide or "disappear forever." She emailed her professor saying she would be out due to a death in the family. I think that speaks to her intent to return.
I think she died in the woods too, its the most logical and easiest explanation.. there have been people who wondered off the Appalachian trial (which is nearby the crash scene) and gotten lost ... only to be found 2 miles from the trial... apparently wondering in circles for months. I know the last person that got lost wasn't found until about 3 years later, and by accident.. not be searchers (they were even searching in the right areas near the persons last sighting by another hiker)... if she had a head injury and had a buzz, it would be easy to make the mistake of taking off into the woods and losing your sense of direction... if that's true, id say shes probably within a 20 mile radius of the crash site. people have been known to cram themselves into pretty tight places to get out of the cold, just sayin'. I think people who think she ran to Canada are giving her ALOT of credit in planning and ability.. I mean, that's damn near secret society level action :p lol
Sooo incredibly interesting!!! Glad to hear his point of view!!! I wanna say again like I said in my comment on a previous episode... I love the fact that when I listen to this PC I learn something new with every ep! Truly the fact that y’all are open to explore so many different POV’s and thoughts...:also the fact that y’all welcome constructive criticism and can handle if someone tells y’all that you have reported information that is not correct...that is just so refreshing to me as a listener. Everything I mentioned above is how I know y’all care about the case! Honestly I feel like y’all care more about truly getting answers than her family.
Of course the forensic psychologist comes up with the most reasonable/sound take on Maura & the case. James Renner is blessed with a vivid imagination that makes for fun novels - but that imagination works against him when it comes to this case. Sorry, but it has gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to James Renner. OF COURSE the dad didn't want a book written about this case by 2010. I am sure he believes she is dead and all a book will do is dredge up tawdry details about his daughter's life. It can be of no help. Also, the point the cop was making with regards to the photos of the kid being posted - if you post photos of your children that are available to the public, you can't complain about someone posting those photos to the public. And ENOUGH with the rag in the tail pipe already. She didn't drunkenly crash her car and bash her head into a window as part of some crafty master plan. Sadly, I agree with Dr. Eckstein that she wandered into the woods and died. With regards to this prior accident - it's funny to hear a bunch of guys talk about it - as if it SUCH a miracle that she got out of being tested for a DUI. First of all - was there weather? Snow? Rain? Even without that - a girl could tell a cop she accidentally accelerated instead of breaking. Most male cops have no hard time thinking young women are stupid and don't know how to drive. No one was injured. She's a cute, young girl. Why test her for drunk driving? One would not have to be a master manipulator in this situation. I am no spring chicken and I can still play the dumb woman card. Interview some women about this - I think you will find it illuminating.
@@paulomoises33 dogs aren’t an exact science or some magic bullet. There is only so much they can do and depending on the age of the dog, they might be poorly trained or nearing retirement. There are also tons of issues with them picking up on intentional and unintentional cues from their handler like a disinterested handler who thinks it’s some drunk college kid who will turn up. Wind, rain, and snow can also cause the scent to drift hundreds of feet away from the source.
This episode, thanks to this guest, was a massive improvement from the previous ones. What he said about the libertarian culture in New Englanders is an important point. Hosts were still out of order trying to keep pushing Renner’s accusations and baseless nonsense and demands that Fred and family act a certain way, but maybe this is a step in the right direction.
Best episode so far. Thanks for seeking out a measured, unbiased and professional opinion on the matters discussed. I think in recent years, the narrative that has been put out there about this case has been largely shaped by one person's opinion. That's not to say James Renner can not voice his opinion - of course he can and should, but I think it has the potential to lead everyone further from the truth if professional, unbiased information from other sources is not explored also. I think it is irresponsible of James Renner to not seek this sort of information out himself and make it available to those who read his blog, or use it to guide his own investigation. I mean no disrespect to him, but I think he is far too close to the case to look at it with any sort of clarity.
+Bianca Armendy Agree its good to have 'independent' people on the broadcast however Dr Eckstein (Senior Lecturer at NH - not listed as Professor??) gained his Doctorate only in 2014. I'm not saying he is not well qualified but he does not have decades of field experience on which to call and he occasionally speculates as much as the rest of us - there are times when he sounds (to me) just a little amateurish. He is also not totally unbiased. But I absolutely agree that its good to have the balance to the views that have already shaped this case over the last few years.
+Bianca Armendy I completely agree! I don't think James is a bad guy and he's brought to light so many important details of this case that weren't out there before (circa the Disappeared episode). But how HE hasn't interviewed someone like this is beyond me.
+piggyduff Really valid points. I too would have liked it if they consulted a Forensic Psychologist with solid field and research experience. It would be interesting if they consulted another, just for a secondary opinion and perhaps some further insight. Thoroughly enjoyed the episode, nonetheless.
+Bianca Armendy Agreed. MMM partially redeemed themselves by getting an expert to agree that James Renner was wrong to call Maura a sociopath (demonstrating what myself and others have been saying about Renner all along, i.e., that he basically doesn't know what he is talking about half of the time).
PLEASE GO BACK TO THE SATURN’S BLACK BOX: (because I can put the rag-in-the-tailpipe to rest.)And by eliminating that seeming red herring it brings Occam’s Razor right back to this investigation: 1. The Saturn’s air bags deployed 2. The engine will not start UNLESS the key is removed and re-inserted in the ignition 3. Faith Westman noted “frenetic activity at the trunk” 4. There’s just enough screwdrivers, funnels and auto fluids in that car to suggest Maura had a crappy car but didn’t understand the basic anatomy of how all combustion engine cars operate. So she spins out, needs to spilt pronto, and the car won’t start 5. Fred’s voice “stick a rag in the tailpipe “ 6. Faith Westman sees activity at the trunk 7. Maura’s last ditch effort to start the most rapid conveyance out of there (her car) fails one last time after sticking a rag in the tailpipe (which ironically would disable the exhaust exiting and stall the car- it would never help it start) 8. Now, fellow web sleuths, someone needs to get up to the impound yard in NH and determine if Maura’s auto-pop lever to open her drunk works from inside the cabin of her car. Cuz if it doesn’t my whole theory just went the way of the hundred that came before 🚽 But if that lever opens her trunk then I think we can lay the mystery of the rag to rest. Most 21 year old, half-drunk, mentally unstable girls would do the Hokey-Pokey to get their car started if they were facing DUI number 2 (in 96 hours) AND had pulled a hit n run on the Greek kid (Petri). I think Maura was falling apart. I think her brain had a neural time bomb in it that would kick up mental illness at age 21-22. Look at her sisters: one is a spook, the other is an addict and minor criminal. Fred presides over this mess and he comes off like one of those hardline “functioning” alcoholics. The type who drinks until 2am but hasn’t missed a day of work in 30 years. Black coffee and heavy on the Old Spice. Maura was already in a terrible Alice-in-Hellscape of minor mental breakdowns, self medicating w/ alcohol. Then on the same night she hits the kid, leaves him for dead and finds out her “bad” sister just left rehab & went right back to the sauce (Maura’s future)?? Hitting the kid was the snap point. If she was suicidal why do her homework and email professors? Maybe she’s only considering.... If she’s disappearing forever why pack her room? Maybe she’s coming back.... If it’s problems with Billy why the email? Maybe she’s breaking it off, maybe not... Because IF she can somehow get out of town, get clear of the hit n run, bolt away to the White Mountains (to a time not too long ago before that inevitable neural time bomb detonated in her poor mind) maybe, just maybe she’ll get up north, read that the police “have no clues as to how this boy died and are closing the case” (totally unrealistic) or that the boy recovered with only a broken leg (more realistic, but not from her point of view at the time) then she can return to her life and maybe...just maybe...all this shit will go away. (She only had 2 more months to go and the credit card fraud goes away too). Think of the weekend of Feb 6-8 like the tilt point of a once-“perfect” life. A rapid slide from track star and Westpoint to looking at 5-10 years in prison if she’s nailed for the hit n run. Not to mention a felony that kills her future forever. Here’s where I get controversial: I think Fred is a coverup man. I think the only person more invested in (living vicariously?) through Maura than Maura is Fred. See, if Maura turns out like Julie then Fred is a great father (2/3) but if Maura turns out like Kathleen then he’s a lousy father (1/3). (We can argue whether working for the military industrial complex is a life-success another time.) I think we need to drop almost everything except: the $4000, the set-up dinner at the brew pub (Kate, Fred, Maura...and maybe Billy too) Kate’s two day disappearance and for that matter can we get an hour-by-hour timeline of PRECISELY where Fred was from sundown Sunday February 8th through Sundown Tuesday February 10th please? Oh. We can’t. Because this entire matter is still classified as a missing person and not hardcore felonious crime(s). We can split this story like 2 branches of the same tree: the trunk is that over the past 2 years Maura is spinning out of control: thievery, orgies, alcohol, bulimia. The branches are: intentional escape and leaving her options open or intentional escape and leaving every red herring within her $280 capabilities? Think about this: who spends $40 on Kahlua when thats 1/7th of her total resources? Lastly, I think the word we should all utilize is hybrid. This could be an intricate, complex, Fred-financed escape that Maura screwed up simply by popping 4 Tylenol PMs and drinking boxed wine while driving. And Dephahydramine along w/ red wine DOES create a mildly euphoric buzz. Try it. You’ll see. It is even possible that she walked right into the path of a killer. It’s not probable but it is possible, Folks, people have lived through failed parachutes. People have fallen 30,000 feet into jungles strapped to their airline seat and lived. It’s not the norm. But crazy happens. And the closer you strategize out on the brink of sanity with hidden plans, thousands in cash, lies everywhere & the police on your trail , the further from the herd anyone strays... you concurrently flirt closer to darkness and crime. It almost works like laws of attraction. “People out at 2am are 99% more likely to incur out at 2am type problems” Maura was on the edge. How much was “her fault” or not can almost seem irrelevant. And that is the crux of why this mystery is apparently slathered in a bizarre catnip that us sleuthy types cannot resist. I am a news Producer. I wade through the woes of humanity for a living. And regardless of what you may think of anything I have hypothesized, my last point is something upon which we can all agree. The highest paid screenwriters in Hollywood couldn’t spin up a more alluring, scary, confounding tale. A quick word on the A-frame house: something happened there. And I think the place I would start is Brianna Maitland. Go listen to her case. Shauna Richardson’s RUclips channel has a great summary. Why explore her case? Because a known criminal came forward and stated that Brianna was held by drug dealers in a remote house 60-70 miles away from her abduction just 5 weeks after Maura’s. And while you’re sniffing down that rabbit hole, realize that through her sister, Kathleen and the Native American dude Kathleen was shacked up with (and charged for marijuana cultivation with) MAURA MURRAY is three degrees removed from the people who likely took Brianna Maitland. It’s a very simple trail and 75% of the facts are contained in these podcasts. (You need the Shauna Richardson piece too). Because I produce bizarre stories for a huge online resource, with the former weekend Host of Coast to Coast AM, my mind is trained to view everything as cause and effect. This thing that we call life is not a pre-positioned stage play, We try to plan it that way, But there are always those unforeseen issues. There are always those dynamic characters, always those catalysts you couldn’t see. The Maura Murray Case is likely a hybrid: there was pre-planning, a “fix” , a duping. But something went wrong. I would write a hefty check this morning to know exactly what happened from Monday February 9th 2004 at 3pm in Amherst, Massachusetts up through Butch’s arrival and thereafter. Like all of us, I pray she’s alive. Happy. Treated for her ails. But frankly I think Maura has been deceased for a very long time. If you stuck with my commentary: thank you. I will check back here to see if anyone added anything. I hope someone does. Also, I apologize for sloppy typing. I’m thumbing it on my iphone. Happy hunting, fellow “sleuthy-types”
Mr. Renner's is the more interesting psychological pathology, at least to me. Lance and Tim, why not get Dr. Eckstein back on the show to tell us what his diagnosis for James Renner might be. I have some thoughts on this, but it would be great to hear a professional's opinion.
Excellent episode. To have an expert on the subject of psychology instead of just Renner's unprofessional take shows you guys are taking this subject seriously. Glad to have stuck around for more episodes to come across this.
Great episode. The answers to this mystery are going to be found by rational analysis of the facts, not psychics or rampant and baseless speculation. The professor was great and willing to challenge a lot of the nonsense many have added to this case. I think James Renner has done some amazing work on this case but I appreciated the professor calling him out on his armchair diagnosis of Maura as a psychopath. The evidence is simply not there at this point. I think the reference to Occam's Razor was also critical. Too many people involved in this case reject the more likely explanations in favor of the more exciting or interesting ones. The reality is that it's far more likely Maura wandered off into the snowy night and succumbed to the elements in some lonely spot deep in the woods on purpose or by accident than she was abducted by a serial killer or is working at Curves in Quebec. Hope she is alive, but it's not terribly likely at this point.
Well, the sexual abuse angle is interesting considering James Renner's discovery of an adult magazine with photos of some of the family's cousins stuck in the pages. I'm not going to say that is for definite a sign of sexual abuse, but I'm erring on the side that there is something not entirely savoury about the family.
If she were going to kill herself, why would she withdraw all of her money, pack a bag, hand in her assignments and let her teachers know she would be back in a week?
I think Dr. Eckstein had some really interesting things to say, and I agree with most of them. I do think she wandered into the woods and died there. My full theory is this: She clearly had a lot of stressors in her life. She'd probably been at least considering 'running away' temporarily or long term for some time. Something within the weeks before her disappearance acted as, as Eckstein says, a catalyst. This catalyst could easily have been the Petrit Vasi hit and run, but just as easily could have been something else that we don't know about. I think she told her father about her idea, or was even encouraged by him, to take off. I would assume, based on her emails, that the plan was to leave for at least a week, but possibly much longer if Fred's $4,000 was in fact for her. If you're to believe that she hit Vasi, I would assume the plan would be to leave until the hype died down surrounding that. I think she packed up her dorm with the intention of A)being gone for a short amount of time, short enough that she could come back and unpack without anyone being the wiser or backup plan B)having to be gone for a longer amount of time, longer than her tenancy in the dorms would last, and having things ready to be moved by her father/family or someone else who knew where she was. I don't think she intended to self harm. I say this only because I am a recent college grad (studied psych along with business), and I too went through a very stressful time in college, as nearly every student does. Very few go on to disappear and self harm. Yes, Maura had more extenuating circumstances than some, but I think if she really planned to end her life there would have more signs of depression and self harm over a longer period of time prior to her disappearance. I don't understand what everyone is so obsessed with the rag in the tailpipe for? Her father said he told her to put it there, so she did, end of story. The only logical deviation from this I could imagine is that, in co-planning her disappearance, the rag was meant to be some sort of distress signal from Maura to Fred. I think this would explain why he talks about the rag - he doesn't want police to spend a lot of time diving into the reason for the rag, because he already knows why it is there. But he also doesn't want to publicize his and Maura's plan, because if she is found right away there would be a lot of questions asked about why she wanted to disappear (aka, what was the 'catalyst?,' what was she running from?). This would also explain his remarks about 'some dirtbag taking her.' She realizes someone with intent to harm has come across her, alone, recently crashed, and probably dazed. She manages to shove a rag in the tailpipe before she is taken and Fred then knows that foul play is involved which leads him to push authorities to look harder for her. It would also explain why he and her family have seemingly largely given up on finding her now - they knew someone took her in 2004, and even if they kept her hostage/hidden for some time, she is either deceased by now or will never be returned. However, I do think the rag in the tail pipe is a red herring and in reality not important to the whereabouts of Maura. I believe what happened is that, after she crashed, she realized that the police would be showing up shortly. Assuming she was drinking, or simply did not want to be seen by police that night (because she did not want to be questioned, turned back towards Amherst, etc.) I think she got out of the car, threw a few things into a bag/backpack/etc., locked the car, and headed into the woods, with the assumption that the car would not immediately be towed, and that she would come back to it later once the scene was cleared of authorities. I believe once she got into the woods she got lost. She then either came back to the scene at some point later and realizes the car has been taken ( she could even head out on the road on foot to see if the car was possibly further down the road than she thought, especially if she was still tipsy/dazed from the accident. This could potentially explain why a man claimed to have seen her jogging down the road later than night), or doesn't even make it back to the scene at all. Either way, that night she is in the woods. From this point, she either gets lost in the woods and succumbs to the elements, or even stumbles across someone/something she isn't supposed to see deep in the woods (possibly even a couple of days into having gone missing, if she is lost and wandering farther and farther within the woods) and causes harm to come to her because of this. I think, just in my general opinion based on having listened to the podcasts up until this point, this covers all the 'clues' and evidence that we solidly know. I am of the belief that she's no longer alive, and I'd sadly have to agree with her father that we will never fully know what happened to her. I'd be very interested to know what other's opinions, especially Tim & Lance's, are on this theory. Reasonable? Missing a bunch of stuff? This is certainly a fascinating case.
She went far beyond risk taking.; it almost seems like she sabotaged herself, either consciously or unconsciously. It seems as if she felt unworthy of West Point, her boyfriend, etc. or at least was ambivalent. If she hit that student and didn't stop because she had been drinking, that would explain a lot. Great episode!
Maybe Fred doesn't want "help" from the armchair investigators because people like Renner constantly portray him, Maura, and his family as monsters. I mean, you just tried to get the psych guy to say he's a sociopath based on one letter.
They won’t let go of the sociopath thing. Even towards the end of the show after the guest already told them no and gave many explanations why not, they still tried to get him to say she’s a sociopath.
The problem with psychics is that they and their clients can both legitimately believe in their own nonsense. Humans are not very rational. Calm down fellas.
I have to say that having now listened to this episode twice, I am no wiser. Forensic Psychologists are, by and large, expert witnesses used by the criminal justice system in court. Can I say that, without meaning to belittle him in any way, Dr Eckstein appears to be more of a Psychotherapist? Since none of us knew Maura (so we cannot say for sure if she was a sociopath or give her any other label discussed in this podcast), none of us were there that night and certainly none of us are privy to any of the incidents leading up to her disappearance, the only way this case will be solved is a) Maura is found alive or b) Maura is found dead. I continue to believe that progress will be made only when a new police investigation is launched by a team of specialist cold case detectives - they should be speaking to everyone even remotely connected with her, as well as the locals to the area where she was last seen. It's long past time for Maura to be found and that starts and ends with the police.
As a college girl myself, my only theory for the rag in the tailpipe not being foul play is if Fred really did tell her it would help fairly recently. I can see her stuffing it in there after the accident as one last "make my dad proud" moment before disappearing to escape cops or kill herself. It's similar to the returning things before dying. Yes she did all this bad stuff (drinking, crashing the car) but at least in the very end it would seem like she was following his advice. Just a personal thought on it.
this Ph.D. had some very good points...it is possible she just walked away into the forest to fade away, but her remains would have been found. I think she scrammed before the cops got there....what happened next: is a mystery to me.
I've followed these podcasts & MM blogs for a while. At first, I thought Maura was troubled & a bad kid. Then I bought James Renner's opinion that she was a sociopath. But now, after examining all of this, I tend to think Maura was the healthy one in her family, despite her shortcomings, & that she did the smart thing & left her life behind for a new one. She was & is a tough cookie, a survivor like Renner said. Is she a sociopath? She may share a few traits with them, but only because she wants to disappear & not be found. It may have been father troubles, boyfriend troubles or something else in her life that caused her to leave. We may never know. I wish her the best.
I love the fact that people think that the only people who are good at lying and conning and are cold etc. are psychopaths. As if there couldn't just be bad or shitty people out there who are talented in these respects.
Shane Bales lol it's normal for humans to want to make sense of behaviours by attributing them to only severely messed up people. The truth is humans are very capable of behaving badly in general.
@@joannasaad298 that’s because people want a boogeyman like a Ted bundy. They don’t like confronting the fact that someone seeing a crime of opportunity like a robbery accidentally killed her and took it to the grave. Even something as simple as an attractive young woman who seemingly had everything going for her was in reality struggling with the onset of a severe mental illness and seeing her life fall apart around her, hitched a ride somewhere and took her own life. Those are much more realistic scenarios that happen every day and makes them more disturbing.
@@ShaneBales also if she was simply suffering situational stressors like everyone does, possibly from recent abusive treatment by her now-outed sexuaI predator boyfriend Bill Rausch, and was feeling under massive pressure by West Point and Umass studies which anyone can understand, she could easily start acting out and making poor life choices. Doesn’t require a diagnosis at all.
Maura was not a sociopath. Nothing in the evidence really suggests that she was. Her doing these things that were "uncharacteristic" of her shows that she was losing control in her life and often shows an identity crisis. Someone pretending to be someone that she's not, probably to keep her father happy and, in the process, lost herself. I don't think she lacked empathy. I think she was very depressed and was using alcohol to deal with her pain. If anyone knows anything about addicts, they often appear to lack empathy when they do something wrong. What her supervisor said prior to walking Maura to her room was that she was just staring straight ahead and wasn't even really acknowledging her. It sounds to me like she was in shock (quite possibly from this hit and run) and was in a catatonic state. I think she used "death in the family" to get away from school and it was the only thing she could come up with that would be excusable. When she got into the car accident the day she went missing, that was the end all for her. I'm guessing she ran off to hide from the police, ended up getting so drunk that she passed out and froze to death.
That's everyone's favorite diagnosis these days of people who do things they A. don't understand, or B. don't agree with. Most people have no idea how difficult it is to diagnose those people, or really what the basic diagnostic parameters are. I hope people are listening to this Dr. so they stop throwing that around like their experts after reading a wiki article and episodes of shows like Breaking Bad. The other new favorite is diagnosing anyone who has weird quirks as having Aspergers Syndrome.
I was in an abusive relationship. I put up with my marriage because I had a disabled daughter and a Catholic family who didn't believe in divorce. I had to escape, went into 4 shelters before dropping my car in a parking lot and having me transported to another state. My advocates wanted me to change my identity.. well 11 years later I wish I had. I can get into Maura's mindset, really
All it shows is that she was under too much stress. Doesn’t require a diagnosis or label. It’s pretty common for people under too much chronic stress to start acting out. All of her “crimes” were very minor and can be chalked up to stupid decision-making, which is a symptom of stress (anxiety) which is usually situational.
Keep in mind that families are not like you folks who have used the word obsessed, whatever that means, and talked about this case "taking over their lives". This is there life. Families want to, at some point, move ahead with their lives. Of course, that does not mean they are not always going to live with the pain of the event, but I think families do not become obsessed (with some exceptions). Books and interviews, keeping the event alive in the media and in the public does not allow families to move beyond an event. If the father needed the money and he did the interviews with that in mind, he might very well limit the questions to preserve his desire to move beyond the event.
You're going to have skeptics and believers.Skeptics believe in nothing while belivers believe in everything The truth is in between. Thank you for producing something in between.
I have always thought some type of abuse (sexual at first) was going on. Now that pressure and stress and high achieving has been put into perspective I am going to venture to say more emotional and psychological abuse went on. Even if no one realized what was going on. When a family puts high expectations on their child and pushes them and her siblings are doing it to on a regular basis it is a form of abuse.
+Emily Walker I think you're too quick to judge (along with Renner and many others) Maura's family and her interactions with her father and other family members. You should ask the question what is Maura's responsibility in her actions? She was no 15 year old kid, no one forced her to steal make up. Apparently Maura had other sister who actually graduated from West Point and is leading a good life now. Did her father/mother do a good job there? Has any of her friends said she experienced extraordinary pressure from her parents to succeed? is it really a bad thing to encourage your children to do so? You dont know Maura or her family and by golly how should you suggest there was sexual abuse going on(!!!!!) when there is absolutely no evidence suggesting this as the doctor they had on said. These are real people we're talking about so be careful with what you write online.
+SuperMariela78: I agree that it's terribly unfair and cruel to casually speculate about the Murrays' family dynamics, at least when people's theories are really just baseless gossip and include accusations of incest and abuse. Grown children's actions and choices don't always reflect how they were parented and raised. And siblings can be vastly different from one another. Just because Julie graduated from West Point and Maura transferred out, probably in part because of the theft (which in my opinion spoke to her unhappiness at the time and not to her overall morality), doesn't mean Maura was the inferior sister. They were just two different people experiencing life in dissimilar ways.
Renner himself had experience with sexual abuse. I think he is projecting this onto the Murray family. And expecting achievement out of your kids, especially when you know they are capable, isn’t abuse.
I actually loved the psychic and thought she was amazing and had a heart ❤️ just discovering this site so I’m gonna be here awhile thanks for all your great content!
I was actually thinking she wanted to commit suicide because of her referencing a death in the family in which she was talking of her own intended death..... the book she brought with her seems like a psychological hint on her part........ That aside I do think she was kidnapped and killed rather then committing suicide
Thank God. Things became way speculative and frankly quite offensive when people were crying "psychopath" from the limited information we have. I'm only a psychology undergraduate and to me her actions are way more indicative of someone who feels guilt/shame/panic which by definition excludes psychopathy. One other thing that bothers me-whatever else about Fred, it is obvious to me that he is not feigning grief. I don't think he knows where she is. When you watch the Disappeared episode, if you're an empathic person, you can feel that pain. I believe him.
I say offensive because whatever happened to her, it's probably sad and she can't defend herself. I do not believe she is giggling in Canada with duping delight.
And psychopaths probably like metaphors and similes because they think it makes them sound more human. They want us to know they have feelings like the but in reality all they can use is a metaphor to try and convince us they have felt it. This guy was great
I would also float out the idea that the events of the party no one wants to talk about would include someone admitting to the hit and run of Vasi. Whether or not this person was Maura, I think it would explain why the identities of EVERYONE at that party are being protected. Another possibility is that Maura announced her plan to disappear while at this party and all are sworn to secrecy (except Sarah, who admitted the plan to Fred once and refuses to talk about it again for this reason). A third possibility is that this was less of a party and more of a planning session - everyone there was involved with Maura's disappearance and the less people known to have been there, the less people who can be questioned and lead authorities/etc. to Maura. The unnamed man she supposedly left with could easily be the 'tandem driver,' if you believe that theory.
The fact that her College buddies don't want to talk about her would make more sense if they knew she was the hit and run on Vasi. Great angle! Also, would explain her wanting to get out of town for a week to lay low.
I am telling you from experience that I believe she was on medications and having a manic reaction due to the way she was acting. drinking, stealing, depression, solemence is all apart of it. everyone was saying she was acting different and cold, look at the pic the police took, she was blank and scary looking. there are thousands of documented cases of adverse reactions to antidepressants that a undiagnosed bipolar has and they do weird things they never would do in their right mind. I was one of them and did everything she was doing I even tried to escape, writing a letter to my family and was suicidal and depressed, drinking all the time and stealing. this was the reaction to meds I shouldn't of been on for mild anxiety. I would love to see if she was on any meds.
Especially given she emptied her bank account not on something useful like food or even survival gear, but a bunch of booze then just drove off with no real plan. That’s classic manic behavior. She was also literally seeing her life fall apart around her. She got kicked out of West Point for stealing a 50 cent or $1 chapstick, wrecked her car, got a dui, got into another accident and had an open container so another dui that would severely impact her ability to become a nurse. Even without a mental illness, someone with no experience in the legal system would think their life was over.
Ich think his assessment of the case is pretty likely - he perished in the woods nearby. There are a lot of cases that started similarly and the people have been found - sometimes years - later. Look at the case of John Glasgow from Arkansas...very specific place he could be traced to - took seven years before hikers stumbled over him... Greetings from Australia
My big question listening to all of these podcasts has been, Why does Renner's wife put up with this crap? Spending so much of his time, and also it seems like a fair amount of money, obsessing over a missing girl he seems to despise. I don't understand it. If my husband were off bothering some missing girl's family and friends, who he also appears to despise, and making all sorts of ugly public inferences, I would have to give him an ultimatum: get help or get a divorce attorney.
I, too, have often wondered how his wife feels about this project. I know he does not work exclusively on this, but still, she must worry sometimes that this has become an all-consuming and unhealthy fixation for him.
Can you imagine the dinner table in the evening. Renner: "Do you know what I learned about Maura today?" The Missus: "WILL YOU EVER SHUT THE F**K UP ABOUT THAT WOMAN!!!!!"
@@JonathanAnon especially given that he isn’t professionally trained. This exact thing happens to detectives getting to personally involved in a case all the time. He also doesn’t have a boss that can forcibly reassign him or mandate he see a specially trained psychiatrist.
Just a quick comment on why Fred may choose the media outlets that he appears on: perhaps they are paying him for his appearances / interviews. Bloggers, journalists, etc are unlikely to have the ability to pay him.
Just like her sister wouldnt discuss personal conversations with the public that she had with Maura...it is none of peoples business even if she is missing. The public doesnt have a right to every aspect of her life just because she is missing. Especially since it was unrelated. Does the events leading up to her disappearing contribute? Absolutely!!! But do u need to know everything she did at a party to solve this case? Probably not. Her being drunk and promiscuous not only put her secrets out there but if u were dead..would u want ur father knowing all those details about you? As a daddys girl I would be mortified if my friends put all my business out there like that. I think she ran simply because as a 21 year old that Just got into a car accident 2 days before. .now crashed another car..with clear evidence of drinking in the car and probably in her system...my thought would be "im gettin the fuck outta here before the cops come..oh shit here comes this guy ..he wants to call the cops on me..."nope im good i called triple A"..just go away dude...im running. " This is what as a 21 year old drunk girl trying to get out of trouble is obviously thinking. Fight or flight. Thanks for allowing me to ramble :)
Yeah and when one person has a theory, there’s something that comes up that makes that theory false. And its a cycle. They think they have something, then it turns out to be wrong. But thats why people like this case, its a challenge
Great job these dudes aren't messing around they want answers which is great keep it up Tim and Lance the crawlspace and M.M.M. chnl. we're on it because we want answers too. Peace from CA.
I really would hate to think she's alive or dead and just being slammed like this as a possible sociopath or being the VICTIM of incest or this and that. It's like people just demonize her.
That's the internet bs for you. Anyone who legitimately is interested in this and are professional (and therefore have some tact) presents reasonable theories involving who she might have been. Murders, and disappearances and the like don't only happen to sweet girl next doors. Sometimes shady, shitty people fall victim too. Not saying that's the case here, but it shouldn't be glossed over just because it might be shocking or upsetting to the family. Especially if it provides answers.
Her behavior prior to her disappearance, makes me think, she and she alone is responsible for whatever happened to her after the wreck. I don't think it was ironic that she disappeared right after the hit and run accident. I believe her dad also thinks she hurt herself and knows the police will not look for her under those circumstances like they would if it was an abduction.
I think Maura had bipolar disorder and bulimia. Sadly I think Maura was becoming an alcoholic to try and cope with stress. It's so sad that Maura is gone and unfortunately I don't think she will be back, I think she ran into the woods and succumb to the elements. 💔
That’s not how search warrants work. You need to state exactly what you are searching for and your reason to believe it is there. For example you have to say “we are looking for a black 9mm handgun. Based on (insert all the evidence for the warrant.) We believe the gun is in their possession” you can’t just enter someone’s house fishing for evidence.
Maybe they, like me since he named Hare, tend to believe the leading authority on the subject rather than some random chick on RUclips who read a wiki page or two. Lead the psychology to the experts or take a class. It's not a good field for hobbyists as its too complicated for most people, let alone dumb asses.
Great work guys keep it coming. I have a few thoughts I would like to suggest might answer some of the questions. Again these are thoughts of mine I have no proof but some of these seem to be getting too much into the aluminum foil helmet crowd. 1. The cop could have Let Maura go after wrecking her Dad's Car. If she didn't seem too messed up and he didn't feel like the hassle of the DUI paperwork, He could have gotten a hire priority call than a girl that in his mind feel asleep or wasn't paying attention. It isn't always took a bribe. 2. Why doesn't the family declare her dead? Maybe that is their last bit of hope they don't want to admit she is gone even though they publicly say she likely is 3. Why doesn't Fred, Maura's 2 friends from the party, or other family members speak with the internet community or James Renner? With as much good as this podcast is doing you yourself have seen trolls and people like Alden Olsen who seem to taunt the family. This is what the internet and press spawns. Perhaps in their minds they think real media is better than internet media, and they don't want the gut wrenching experience of watching mean spirited videos or hurtful emails.
and to reply to the why doesnt her friends talk about the preceding events...well if i was mauras friend at the time and i knew we had some parties that were pretty wild...drinking..sex with multiple people..etc..you dont want to paint that picture of ur friend because u KNOW that didnt have shit to do with her disappearing...it doesnt mean that they are harboring all these important info to hide anything that would contribute to finding her. And not only would I not tell the public what went on with Maura to keep Her reputation from being tarnished needlessly..but I dont want to discuss it for MY reputation. ..lol I am still here and I wouldnt want everyone knowing I was a ho that evening..and did crazy shit...just my opinion.
+Melissa Bridges I agree, and I think that also partly explains the Murray family's behavior. It must be incredibly painful to not only lose your child, but to have strangers gleefully slobbering over every salacious detail of her life as it becomes public. Ultimately, Maura was a talented, driven young woman who made a few (relatively minor) mistakes, and it must be awful for the family to see those aspects of her life overshadow all the accomplishments. The family has publicly stated that they believe she died in the woods close to the car wreck. I think that is why Fred has stated repeatedly that the past "doesn't matter" and the search should focus on "what happened on Wild Ammonoosuc Road." As someone who needs to be in control (a trait his daughter shared), he wants to protect her and his family's reputation as much as possible.
Yep, I mean look at how living sexual assault victims who got carried away one night are treated. “Well you must be some crazy party person to even put yourself in a situation like that.” Or having a defense attorney going over every single mistake you’ve made as an adult to imply you somehow deserved it or made it up.
I think she wondered for some time then when to a house somewhere and asked for help. But the person got advantage of the situation. Because i never saw SO MANY WEIRDOS in a such small stretch or road. My God
With a degree of certainty, we can know something about if maura was pregnant or not. Her birthcontroll pills where found and four pills was missin, meaning Maura just had her period. The inventory also specified one tampon, wich fits well with that`s the remains of her stash from previous period.
I would love to see an episode focusing on named suspects that we know of. It may help to put names and faces together for your documentary. I think that would be interesting. Again this is my first podcast and I'm 34. I love anything that's true crime etc..☺ Jennifer
Where are you guys going here? Fred went to the NH Gov and pleaded for the state police to release the case records!! I get where you guys are going, but it doesn't seem like cricket to me.
Why do you think a psychic would bring new perspectives? She wasn't any more informative than any Joe off the street. Bounce this case off your grandma and she'll have just as much to say.
Interesting points. But why did cadavor dog lose her scent in middle of road? Why no footprints in snow off roadside? Why has no one has found her body or bones in woods to this day? Also, credible witness A report of nose to nose SUV vehicle at crash site between Butch and disappearance?? Based on Occam's Razor she did perish in woods though...
I wonder what strange extrapolations the armchair detectives would make of the safety pins holding the fabric up on the ceiling of my car and the red energy drink stains in the passenger seat should I mysteriously disappear.
like she had in that picture the police took. im not some conspiracy theorist I just lived what she did, high stress and wrong medication and it was a perfect storm that lead me to do things I would of never done being the healthy person I am now
I was feeling good about Dr. Eckstein's opinion regarding the case until he referred to people in New England as "libertarians". That term is WAY off base--has he looked at one of those Red/Blue political maps recently? Maybe people in the Northeast are protective of their privacy, but that doesn't make them libertarians. That he would call them that puts into question the labels he used for Maura as well.
+Ed Dentzel As a Bostonian, I think that characterization fits New Hampshire (the only place in New England he has lived in) but few other places in New England.
If she was suicidal like the professionals theory, maybe the rag in the tail pipe was the waving of the white flag so to speak. Like okay , I give up. I surrender !
The description of psychopath describe say former roommate so well. Granted, she is well liked, but that's because she's always putting on a show out in public.
I thought renner full on calling muara a sociopath was absurd in every way. since when does making some mistakes make you a sociopath?? if that’s the case then I guess we all are , bc we all make mistakes esp as a young adult. But I do believe she died in the woods I always thought that.
In a previous podcast, the psychic mentionned a female name in the car: Kate. Could that be related to this supervisor working with Maura Murray? That person was giving some kind of informations way to general. But impliying that there were more than meet the eyes? Just a though NOT a theory.
There is a really great book out there "Confessions of a Sociopath" a non-criminal sociopath who authored it, and it is brutally honest. I have done a year's worth of research for a documentary on Sociopath's but not a professor by any means-- I would not call her a sociopath by any means. I believe personally that she fits the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder. www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml. I'm not sure if he is calling her bipolar, borderline seems to fit much better. Hypomania is a form of bipolar. I don't mean to try to be an expert, but I know about Bipolar, in a very personal way, and hypomania is not a disease within itself.
She was somewhat psychic. She was good with the names. Didn't someone say something about a cop named Ben? She did pick up on that name. There are better psychics.
Ephedrine and Alcohol. I believe she was tested for drugs and found positive. She was stressed and took off. I am starting to believe something happened with the police and they took her some where and she bolted. The police know what happened and feel they are responsible. Very sad. Someone knows
what if the red wine was cover up her eating disorder but also the no foot prints means she was abducted and killed possibly by israel keyes or some local dirt bag or some in position of Authority dump her in a pond/river 30 feet from the crash of the car.
as crazy as it sounds, it maybe she didn't get kicked out of west point, she seems smart, maybe she joined the CIA and the whole disappeared thing is a deep cover,
It sounds like she really wanted to make things right with her dad i believe her identity was stolen & she was killed and it wasnt even her in that car even the bus driver said it wasnt! Was dna check at the scene
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I completely agree with Eckstein here. People have gotten so wrapped up in whether or not she was kidnapped, killed by a serial killer, etc. that they've missed the most important clues that are based in fact. She was highly stressed, upset for some reason or another, had family issues, had legal issues, and was recently kicked out of West Point. Her actions point to someone intending to run away from these issues and potentially end her life.
LOVED Dr. Eckstein's points. I was nodding along with him throughout a lot of the video. He gave a clean, concise theory from a highly educated psychological standpoint that this podcast really needed.
Listening to this series another time 7 years later I really appreciate the work you guys put into this, especially all this time later. I know this sounds weird but Maura has been my hero all through junior college and undergraduate because I just thought of her. Constantly. Was driven by her hard work, her academic performance. Related to her in so many ways. Thought of her little smile & dimples randomly during days to keep me going. Sometimes felt a little bit better about my own driving record 😅😬🥰 but most of all was inspired by her. I know for a fact that you can be a charming 21 year old girl. Good in school hard working but have dark secrets. I know you guys have gone forward to cover other cases at this point but the dedication that went into this case was something I was so happy to see, and will probably go back and listen to a few times 🥰 y’all probably won’t see this because this video is 5+ years old, but wanted to share (a little late). I don’t have a theory on this case as I’ve never been to the NE area have no image of it, can’t imagine some of the simple nuances of life there so therefore couldn’t begin to predict how a girl could go missing thre. But very open to all avenues of theory.
PLEASE have more guests like this man tonight. He's eloquent, has the knowledge to back up his points, and doesn't run with wild assumptions.
It also feels like many people want to make this case far more complex than it is. Yes, it is unlikely that someone is kidnapped/murdered but it is also unlikely that they disappear all together. I honestly think it's either suicide or a kidnapped/murder.
Also why the heck do you guys treat Renner like he's a source to be taken seriously? There is hardly any base for her being a psychopath. Let it go. Let Renner go as well.
I am also wondering if maybe maura was possibly Bi-polar or dealing with addiction. Her behavior before she went missing (the fraud, the drinking, car crashing etc..) seems to point to that.
Jennifer Ogletree , yeah good thought
Alcohol issue for sure imo. I don't think she bought alcohol for a party when she skipped town. I think it was all for her. She was gonna be gone for a while and wanted to get her drink on.
I thought of that, too. Im listening to these out of order but on one video someone said something about her being schizophrenic. I don't think so. But bipolar is a possibility. Not enough info.
Definitely bipolar (and this opinion comes from a bipolar person)
Seems more like schizophrenia to me. I’ve worked in an acute mental health assessment unit and it was full of young people around her age with similar stresses and behaviours.
Many take Renner's word for gospel with MM but he is sort of inflexible when it comes to his theories. He seems to bend the narrative and whatever evidence comes up to fit those theories. I think that's normal for someone who's been (for lack of a better word) obsessed with one case for so long, but for me that makes his judgment seem rigid and cloudy, and thus not very reliable
Spot on!
On the other side of the coin (and this is not an accusation against you) is that, particularly on social media, there are a lot of people out there that think they're smarter than everyone else, and can't stand the idea that what they might think is wrong or gets challenged. It's much easier to say "oh that person is a jerk, so therefore they're unreliable". Again not a lob at you, or a defense of him.
I agree. He's not open to alternate theories/ideas just cherrypicking the parts of the case that support his theories.
It honestly sounds like she was developing mental health issues and was afraid to/didn’t know how to get help. She was at the age more severe mental illnesses start to develop and was literally seeing her life fall apart around her. Kicked out of West Point for stealing, DUI, and potentially facing another DUI after the accident. She wasn’t a career criminal and likely didn’t know the overall consequences wouldn’t be too bad in the long run. She would have ended up with something like 30 days rehab, which she could do pre trial to help her defense, and mandatory AA, ignition interlock system, and supervised probation for 1-3 years. Stay out of trouble for another 5-7 years, then file for expungement and no one except jobs with the government can even see those records exist.
Yeah Renner is not the person to look at when interested in this take.
Thank you guys for persevering with this case. I pray for a timely conclusion for Maura's sake and for the sake of the family.
Best episode yet! Dr. Eckstein was a perfect source for perspective on this case. And I have to say I agree with him on his theory and his beliefs on her mental state. Using the term "psychopath" has never felt right to me. We've all had impulsive moments during times of stress or frustration, and with Maura, that on top of being a perfectionist or possibly an eating disorder could certainly drive her to do something crazy, like lying to get away for a week or even suicide. It just really fits here. I also appreciate them bringing up that the chance that a "dirtbag" or murderer driving by Maura in the 7-10 minutes she was alone, especially in a rural area would be one in a million! That's why I think another ground search or something for a body needs to be done.
+Lauren Williams Agreed, this episode has the kind of solid, practical evidence that a case like this screams out for, and not psychics, Bigfoot, or alien abduction. I also lean toward the scenario that Maura's body is in the woods somewhere near the scene of the crash because she either wanted to die or became so disabled by hypothermia, that after awhile in the woods, she may no longer have had the option to make choices.
+Lauren Williams Nobody ever said she was a psychopath. The term sociopath was used, and they are very different. He mentions, here, that they are interchangeable terms, but I've read and heard other psychologist distinguish between the two.
+Curt Rowlett (Strange Beacons) if the body is in the woods near the scene of the accident it would have been found long ago IMO - the dogs tracked away from the woods.
+Curt Rowlett (Strange Beacons) if the body is in the woods near the scene of the accident it would have been found long ago IMO - the dogs tracked away from the woods.
Yes! I was surprised looking at the satellite view of the crash area that it is not exactly wilderness. But certainly there is wilderness to the east if Maura got that far.
At first, it seemed like Robert wouldn't add anything too interesting, but as the interview progressed, he made it one of my favorite episodes so far.
My hypothesis is similar to the guest on the show...i think that since she was a runner...drinking in the car...evidence of alcohol in the car..knowing the trouble she was going to get into..she ran..she perhaps got a ride to the mountains she loved....and like the psychologist said..hid and succumbed to the elements..because during that time of year..it was cold..if she was drinking..she was probably dehydrated. ..didnt want to be caught at a gas station..hid too long..maybe passed out and died...her remains are probably in the white mountain area but hasnt been searched too extensively. Like they said..being a 21 yea old at the same time maura was..with 300 bucks to my name..there is no way that i could have orchestrated a "new life" with no job skill..no license..without ever being heard from again. And the time frame of opportunity for someone to snatch her..kill her...and never be found..is HIGHLY unlikely. As much as people want to glamorize this case...I believe that she died running from a situation. Maybe she even ran into the woods and hurt herself and wasnt able to get up and get help..such as a broken leg..etc. I have been into this case since it happened..I am from the area..and I am 32 years old...and in college during that time. She was typical. We all drank
.partied..while managing to keep up our gpa...the stress was too much..she prob did just wanna go up to the mountains and veg out ...shit happened..she had to run before the cops came..and had the abilitly...she hauled ass..into the woods..or into the mountains. They need to focus on the search for her remains in the mountain area..instead of interviewing and harassing pple that werent involved. Great podcast!
+Melissa Bridges This is my hypothesis as well. I think she realized she was about to get into deep shit with a DUI, panicked, and grabbed the bottle of Kahlua to escape into the woods. She was probably thinking she'd find a place to wait it out for a few hours or overnight, then go back to the car when she sobered up so that they couldn't charge her with a DUI. Maybe she decided drinking the bottle of Kahlua was a good way to pass the time and passed out and died from hypothermia (unfortunately I have a relatively who froze to death passed out drunk). Or as you pointed out, she may have injured herself. But I don't think she meant to commit suicide or "disappear forever." She emailed her professor saying she would be out due to a death in the family. I think that speaks to her intent to return.
I think she died in the woods too, its the most logical and easiest explanation.. there have been people who wondered off the Appalachian trial (which is nearby the crash scene) and gotten lost ... only to be found 2 miles from the trial... apparently wondering in circles for months. I know the last person that got lost wasn't found until about 3 years later, and by accident.. not be searchers (they were even searching in the right areas near the persons last sighting by another hiker)... if she had a head injury and had a buzz, it would be easy to make the mistake of taking off into the woods and losing your sense of direction... if that's true, id say shes probably within a 20 mile radius of the crash site. people have been known to cram themselves into pretty tight places to get out of the cold, just sayin'.
I think people who think she ran to Canada are giving her ALOT of credit in planning and ability.. I mean, that's damn near secret society level action :p lol
Sooo incredibly interesting!!! Glad to hear his point of view!!! I wanna say again like I said in my comment on a previous episode... I love the fact that when I listen to this PC I learn something new with every ep! Truly the fact that y’all are open to explore so many different POV’s and thoughts...:also the fact that y’all welcome constructive criticism and can handle if someone tells y’all that you have reported information that is not correct...that is just so refreshing to me as a listener. Everything I mentioned above is how I know y’all care about the case!
Honestly I feel like y’all care more about truly getting answers than her family.
Of course the forensic psychologist comes up with the most reasonable/sound take on Maura & the case. James Renner is blessed with a vivid imagination that makes for fun novels - but that imagination works against him when it comes to this case. Sorry, but it has gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to James Renner. OF COURSE the dad didn't want a book written about this case by 2010. I am sure he believes she is dead and all a book will do is dredge up tawdry details about his daughter's life. It can be of no help. Also, the point the cop was making with regards to the photos of the kid being posted - if you post photos of your children that are available to the public, you can't complain about someone posting those photos to the public. And ENOUGH with the rag in the tail pipe already. She didn't drunkenly crash her car and bash her head into a window as part of some crafty master plan. Sadly, I agree with Dr. Eckstein that she wandered into the woods and died. With regards to this prior accident - it's funny to hear a bunch of guys talk about it - as if it SUCH a miracle that she got out of being tested for a DUI. First of all - was there weather? Snow? Rain? Even without that - a girl could tell a cop she accidentally accelerated instead of breaking. Most male cops have no hard time thinking young women are stupid and don't know how to drive. No one was injured. She's a cute, young girl. Why test her for drunk driving? One would not have to be a master manipulator in this situation. I am no spring chicken and I can still play the dumb woman card. Interview some women about this - I think you will find it illuminating.
rioburke69 Yeah, I think Renner has his own psychological issues.
Ok but why didn't dogs pick her scent? She was taken ..
@@paulomoises33 dogs aren’t an exact science or some magic bullet. There is only so much they can do and depending on the age of the dog, they might be poorly trained or nearing retirement. There are also tons of issues with them picking up on intentional and unintentional cues from their handler like a disinterested handler who thinks it’s some drunk college kid who will turn up. Wind, rain, and snow can also cause the scent to drift hundreds of feet away from the source.
This episode, thanks to this guest, was a massive improvement from the previous ones. What he said about the libertarian culture in New Englanders is an important point. Hosts were still out of order trying to keep pushing Renner’s accusations and baseless nonsense and demands that Fred and family act a certain way, but maybe this is a step in the right direction.
Best episode so far. Thanks for seeking out a measured, unbiased and professional opinion on the matters discussed. I think in recent years, the narrative that has been put out there about this case has been largely shaped by one person's opinion. That's not to say James Renner can not voice his opinion - of course he can and should, but I think it has the potential to lead everyone further from the truth if professional, unbiased information from other sources is not explored also. I think it is irresponsible of James Renner to not seek this sort of information out himself and make it available to those who read his blog, or use it to guide his own investigation. I mean no disrespect to him, but I think he is far too close to the case to look at it with any sort of clarity.
+Bianca Armendy Agree its good to have 'independent' people on the broadcast however Dr Eckstein (Senior Lecturer at NH - not listed as Professor??) gained his Doctorate only in 2014. I'm not saying he is not well qualified but he does not have decades of field experience on which to call and he occasionally speculates as much as the rest of us - there are times when he sounds (to me) just a little amateurish. He is also not totally unbiased. But I absolutely agree that its good to have the balance to the views that have already shaped this case over the last few years.
+Bianca Armendy I completely agree! I don't think James is a bad guy and he's brought to light so many important details of this case that weren't out there before (circa the Disappeared episode). But how HE hasn't interviewed someone like this is beyond me.
+piggyduff Really valid points. I too would have liked it if they consulted a Forensic Psychologist with solid field and research experience. It would be interesting if they consulted another, just for a secondary opinion and perhaps some further insight. Thoroughly enjoyed the episode, nonetheless.
+Bianca Armendy Agreed. MMM partially redeemed themselves by getting an expert to agree that James Renner was wrong to call Maura a sociopath (demonstrating what myself and others have been saying about Renner all along, i.e., that he basically doesn't know what he is talking about half of the time).
12:23 Interview begins
This was your best episode to this point.
PLEASE GO BACK TO THE SATURN’S BLACK BOX: (because I can put the rag-in-the-tailpipe to rest.)And by eliminating that seeming red herring it brings Occam’s Razor right back to this investigation:
1. The Saturn’s air bags deployed
2. The engine will not start UNLESS the key is removed and re-inserted in the ignition
3. Faith Westman noted “frenetic activity at the trunk”
4. There’s just enough screwdrivers, funnels and auto fluids in that car to suggest Maura had a crappy car but didn’t understand the basic anatomy of how all combustion engine cars operate. So she spins out, needs to spilt pronto, and the car won’t start
5. Fred’s voice “stick a rag in the tailpipe “
6. Faith Westman sees activity at the trunk
7. Maura’s last ditch effort to start the most rapid conveyance out of there (her car) fails one last time after sticking a rag in the tailpipe (which ironically would disable the exhaust exiting and stall the car- it would never help it start)
8. Now, fellow web sleuths, someone needs to get up to the impound yard in NH and determine if Maura’s auto-pop lever to open her drunk works from inside the cabin of her car. Cuz if it doesn’t my whole theory just went the way of the hundred that came before 🚽 But if that lever opens her trunk then I think we can lay the mystery of the rag to rest. Most 21 year old, half-drunk, mentally unstable girls would do the Hokey-Pokey to get their car started if they were facing DUI number 2 (in 96 hours) AND had pulled a hit n run on the Greek kid (Petri).
I think Maura was falling apart. I think her brain had a neural time bomb in it that would kick up mental illness at age 21-22. Look at her sisters: one is a spook, the other is an addict and minor criminal. Fred presides over this mess and he comes off like one of those hardline “functioning” alcoholics. The type who drinks until 2am but hasn’t missed a day of work in 30 years. Black coffee and heavy on the Old Spice. Maura was already in a terrible Alice-in-Hellscape of minor mental breakdowns, self medicating w/ alcohol. Then on the same night she hits the kid, leaves him for dead and finds out her “bad” sister just left rehab & went right back to the sauce (Maura’s future)?? Hitting the kid was the snap point.
If she was suicidal why do her homework and email professors? Maybe she’s only considering.... If she’s disappearing forever why pack her room? Maybe she’s coming back.... If it’s problems with Billy why the email? Maybe she’s breaking it off, maybe not... Because IF she can somehow get out of town, get clear of the hit n run, bolt away to the White Mountains (to a time not too long ago before that inevitable neural time bomb detonated in her poor mind) maybe, just maybe she’ll get up north, read that the police “have no clues as to how this boy died and are closing the case” (totally unrealistic) or that the boy recovered with only a broken leg (more realistic, but not from her point of view at the time) then she can return to her life and maybe...just maybe...all this shit will go away. (She only had 2 more months to go and the credit card fraud goes away too).
Think of the weekend of Feb 6-8 like the tilt point of a once-“perfect” life. A rapid slide from track star and Westpoint to looking at 5-10 years in prison if she’s nailed for the hit n run. Not to mention a felony that kills her future forever.
Here’s where I get controversial: I think Fred is a coverup man. I think the only person more invested in (living vicariously?) through Maura than Maura is Fred. See, if Maura turns out like Julie then Fred is a great father (2/3) but if Maura turns out like Kathleen then he’s a lousy father (1/3). (We can argue whether working for the military industrial complex is a life-success another time.) I think we need to drop almost everything except: the $4000, the set-up dinner at the brew pub (Kate, Fred, Maura...and maybe Billy too) Kate’s two day disappearance and for that matter can we get an hour-by-hour timeline of PRECISELY where Fred was from sundown Sunday February 8th through Sundown Tuesday February 10th please? Oh. We can’t. Because this entire matter is still classified as a missing person and not hardcore felonious crime(s).
We can split this story like 2 branches of the same tree: the trunk is that over the past 2 years Maura is spinning out of control: thievery, orgies, alcohol, bulimia. The branches are: intentional escape and leaving her options open or intentional escape and leaving every red herring within her $280 capabilities? Think about this: who spends $40 on Kahlua when thats 1/7th of her total resources?
Lastly, I think the word we should all utilize is hybrid. This could be an intricate, complex, Fred-financed escape that Maura screwed up simply by popping 4 Tylenol PMs and drinking boxed wine while driving. And Dephahydramine along w/ red wine DOES create a mildly euphoric buzz. Try it. You’ll see. It is even possible that she walked right into the path of a killer. It’s not probable but it is possible, Folks, people have lived through failed parachutes. People have fallen 30,000 feet into jungles strapped to their airline seat and lived. It’s not the norm. But crazy happens. And the closer you strategize out on the brink of sanity with hidden plans, thousands in cash, lies everywhere & the police on your trail , the further from the herd anyone strays... you concurrently flirt closer to darkness and crime. It almost works like laws of attraction. “People out at 2am are 99% more likely to incur out at 2am type problems” Maura was on the edge. How much was “her fault” or not can almost seem irrelevant. And that is the crux of why this mystery is apparently slathered in a bizarre catnip that us sleuthy types cannot resist. I am a news Producer. I wade through the woes of humanity for a living. And regardless of what you may think of anything I have hypothesized, my last point is something upon which we can all agree. The highest paid screenwriters in Hollywood couldn’t spin up a more alluring, scary, confounding tale.
A quick word on the A-frame house: something happened there. And I think the place I would start is Brianna Maitland. Go listen to her case. Shauna Richardson’s RUclips channel has a great summary. Why explore her case? Because a known criminal came forward and stated that Brianna was held by drug dealers in a remote house 60-70 miles away from her abduction just 5 weeks after Maura’s. And while you’re sniffing down that rabbit hole, realize that through her sister, Kathleen and the Native American dude Kathleen was shacked up with (and charged for marijuana cultivation with) MAURA MURRAY is three degrees removed from the people who likely took Brianna Maitland. It’s a very simple trail and 75% of the facts are contained in these podcasts. (You need the Shauna Richardson piece too).
Because I produce bizarre stories for a huge online resource, with the former weekend Host of Coast to Coast AM, my mind is trained to view everything as cause and effect. This thing that we call life is not a pre-positioned stage play, We try to plan it that way, But there are always those unforeseen issues. There are always those dynamic characters, always those catalysts you couldn’t see. The Maura Murray Case is likely a hybrid: there was pre-planning, a “fix” , a duping. But something went wrong. I would write a hefty check this morning to know exactly what happened from Monday February 9th 2004 at 3pm in Amherst, Massachusetts up through Butch’s arrival and thereafter. Like all of us, I pray she’s alive. Happy. Treated for her ails. But frankly I think Maura has been deceased for a very long time. If you stuck with my commentary: thank you. I will check back here to see if anyone added anything. I hope someone does. Also, I apologize for sloppy typing. I’m thumbing it on my iphone. Happy hunting, fellow “sleuthy-types”
I agree with every point you made
She is gone, long gone.
Mr. Renner's is the more interesting psychological pathology, at least to me. Lance and Tim, why not get Dr. Eckstein back on the show to tell us what his diagnosis for James Renner might be. I have some thoughts on this, but it would be great to hear a professional's opinion.
I believe many of these true crime authors are mentally ill. Ann Rice is another one that seems obsessive and depressed.
i unofficially diagnose Renner with NPD
@@littlebird8346 me too lol
Excellent episode. To have an expert on the subject of psychology instead of just Renner's unprofessional take shows you guys are taking this subject seriously. Glad to have stuck around for more episodes to come across this.
Great episode. The answers to this mystery are going to be found by rational analysis of the facts, not psychics or rampant and baseless speculation. The professor was great and willing to challenge a lot of the nonsense many have added to this case. I think James Renner has done some amazing work on this case but I appreciated the professor calling him out on his armchair diagnosis of Maura as a psychopath. The evidence is simply not there at this point. I think the reference to Occam's Razor was also critical. Too many people involved in this case reject the more likely explanations in favor of the more exciting or interesting ones. The reality is that it's far more likely Maura wandered off into the snowy night and succumbed to the elements in some lonely spot deep in the woods on purpose or by accident than she was abducted by a serial killer or is working at Curves in Quebec. Hope she is alive, but it's not terribly likely at this point.
Well, the sexual abuse angle is interesting considering James Renner's discovery of an adult magazine with photos of some of the family's cousins stuck in the pages. I'm not going to say that is for definite a sign of sexual abuse, but I'm erring on the side that there is something not entirely savoury about the family.
If she were going to kill herself, why would she withdraw all of her money, pack a bag, hand in her assignments and let her teachers know she would be back in a week?
I think Dr. Eckstein had some really interesting things to say, and I agree with most of them. I do think she wandered into the woods and died there. My full theory is this: She clearly had a lot of stressors in her life. She'd probably been at least considering 'running away' temporarily or long term for some time. Something within the weeks before her disappearance acted as, as Eckstein says, a catalyst. This catalyst could easily have been the Petrit Vasi hit and run, but just as easily could have been something else that we don't know about. I think she told her father about her idea, or was even encouraged by him, to take off. I would assume, based on her emails, that the plan was to leave for at least a week, but possibly much longer if Fred's $4,000 was in fact for her. If you're to believe that she hit Vasi, I would assume the plan would be to leave until the hype died down surrounding that. I think she packed up her dorm with the intention of A)being gone for a short amount of time, short enough that she could come back and unpack without anyone being the wiser or backup plan B)having to be gone for a longer amount of time, longer than her tenancy in the dorms would last, and having things ready to be moved by her father/family or someone else who knew where she was. I don't think she intended to self harm. I say this only because I am a recent college grad (studied psych along with business), and I too went through a very stressful time in college, as nearly every student does. Very few go on to disappear and self harm. Yes, Maura had more extenuating circumstances than some, but I think if she really planned to end her life there would have more signs of depression and self harm over a longer period of time prior to her disappearance. I don't understand what everyone is so obsessed with the rag in the tailpipe for? Her father said he told her to put it there, so she did, end of story. The only logical deviation from this I could imagine is that, in co-planning her disappearance, the rag was meant to be some sort of distress signal from Maura to Fred. I think this would explain why he talks about the rag - he doesn't want police to spend a lot of time diving into the reason for the rag, because he already knows why it is there. But he also doesn't want to publicize his and Maura's plan, because if she is found right away there would be a lot of questions asked about why she wanted to disappear (aka, what was the 'catalyst?,' what was she running from?). This would also explain his remarks about 'some dirtbag taking her.' She realizes someone with intent to harm has come across her, alone, recently crashed, and probably dazed. She manages to shove a rag in the tailpipe before she is taken and Fred then knows that foul play is involved which leads him to push authorities to look harder for her. It would also explain why he and her family have seemingly largely given up on finding her now - they knew someone took her in 2004, and even if they kept her hostage/hidden for some time, she is either deceased by now or will never be returned. However, I do think the rag in the tail pipe is a red herring and in reality not important to the whereabouts of Maura. I believe what happened is that, after she crashed, she realized that the police would be showing up shortly. Assuming she was drinking, or simply did not want to be seen by police that night (because she did not want to be questioned, turned back towards Amherst, etc.) I think she got out of the car, threw a few things into a bag/backpack/etc., locked the car, and headed into the woods, with the assumption that the car would not immediately be towed, and that she would come back to it later once the scene was cleared of authorities. I believe once she got into the woods she got lost. She then either came back to the scene at some point later and realizes the car has been taken ( she could even head out on the road on foot to see if the car was possibly further down the road than she thought, especially if she was still tipsy/dazed from the accident. This could potentially explain why a man claimed to have seen her jogging down the road later than night), or doesn't even make it back to the scene at all. Either way, that night she is in the woods. From this point, she either gets lost in the woods and succumbs to the elements, or even stumbles across someone/something she isn't supposed to see deep in the woods (possibly even a couple of days into having gone missing, if she is lost and wandering farther and farther within the woods) and causes harm to come to her because of this. I think, just in my general opinion based on having listened to the podcasts up until this point, this covers all the 'clues' and evidence that we solidly know. I am of the belief that she's no longer alive, and I'd sadly have to agree with her father that we will never fully know what happened to her. I'd be very interested to know what other's opinions, especially Tim & Lance's, are on this theory. Reasonable? Missing a bunch of stuff? This is certainly a fascinating case.
She went far beyond risk taking.; it almost seems like she sabotaged herself, either consciously or unconsciously. It seems as if she felt unworthy of West Point, her boyfriend, etc. or at least was ambivalent. If she hit that student and didn't stop because she had been drinking, that would explain a lot. Great episode!
Maybe Fred doesn't want "help" from the armchair investigators because people like Renner constantly portray him, Maura, and his family as monsters. I mean, you just tried to get the psych guy to say he's a sociopath based on one letter.
Sheri Martin c
People do strange things when they become frustrsted. I guess you would be frustrated if you felt the police were not being truthful with you.
They won’t let go of the sociopath thing. Even towards the end of the show after the guest already told them no and gave many explanations why not, they still tried to get him to say she’s a sociopath.
The problem with psychics is that they and their clients can both legitimately believe in their own nonsense. Humans are not very rational. Calm down fellas.
I have to say that having now listened to this episode twice, I am no wiser. Forensic Psychologists are, by and large, expert witnesses used by the criminal justice system in court. Can I say that, without meaning to belittle him in any way, Dr Eckstein appears to be more of a Psychotherapist? Since none of us knew Maura (so we cannot say for sure if she was a sociopath or give her any other label discussed in this podcast), none of us were there that night and certainly none of us are privy to any of the incidents leading up to her disappearance, the only way this case will be solved is a) Maura is found alive or b) Maura is found dead. I continue to believe that progress will be made only when a new police investigation is launched by a team of specialist cold case detectives - they should be speaking to everyone even remotely connected with her, as well as the locals to the area where she was last seen. It's long past time for Maura to be found and that starts and ends with the police.
As a college girl myself, my only theory for the rag in the tailpipe not being foul play is if Fred really did tell her it would help fairly recently. I can see her stuffing it in there after the accident as one last "make my dad proud" moment before disappearing to escape cops or kill herself. It's similar to the returning things before dying. Yes she did all this bad stuff (drinking, crashing the car) but at least in the very end it would seem like she was following his advice. Just a personal thought on it.
this Ph.D. had some very good points...it is possible she just walked away into the forest to fade away, but her remains would have been found. I think she scrammed before the cops got there....what happened next: is a mystery to me.
I've followed these podcasts & MM blogs for a while. At first, I thought Maura was troubled & a bad kid. Then I bought James Renner's opinion that she was a sociopath. But now, after examining all of this, I tend to think Maura was the healthy one in her family, despite her shortcomings, & that she did the smart thing & left her life behind for a new one. She was & is a tough cookie, a survivor like Renner said. Is she a sociopath? She may share a few traits with them, but only because she wants to disappear & not be found. It may have been father troubles, boyfriend troubles or something else in her life that caused her to leave. We may never know. I wish her the best.
I love the fact that people think that the only people who are good at lying and conning and are cold etc. are psychopaths. As if there couldn't just be bad or shitty people out there who are talented in these respects.
Shane Bales lol it's normal for humans to want to make sense of behaviours by attributing them to only severely messed up people. The truth is humans are very capable of behaving badly in general.
+Joanna Rad Absolutely. especially if, as its been suggested, Maura was suffering from addiction issues.
@@joannasaad298 that’s because people want a boogeyman like a Ted bundy. They don’t like confronting the fact that someone seeing a crime of opportunity like a robbery accidentally killed her and took it to the grave. Even something as simple as an attractive young woman who seemingly had everything going for her was in reality struggling with the onset of a severe mental illness and seeing her life fall apart around her, hitched a ride somewhere and took her own life. Those are much more realistic scenarios that happen every day and makes them more disturbing.
@@ShaneBales also if she was simply suffering situational stressors like everyone does, possibly from recent abusive treatment by her now-outed sexuaI predator boyfriend Bill Rausch, and was feeling under massive pressure by West Point and Umass studies which anyone can understand, she could easily start acting out and making poor life choices. Doesn’t require a diagnosis at all.
It is disheartening how these guys ignore so much because of their preconceived theory of what happened 🙄
Maura was not a sociopath. Nothing in the evidence really suggests that she was. Her doing these things that were "uncharacteristic" of her shows that she was losing control in her life and often shows an identity crisis. Someone pretending to be someone that she's not, probably to keep her father happy and, in the process, lost herself. I don't think she lacked empathy. I think she was very depressed and was using alcohol to deal with her pain. If anyone knows anything about addicts, they often appear to lack empathy when they do something wrong. What her supervisor said prior to walking Maura to her room was that she was just staring straight ahead and wasn't even really acknowledging her. It sounds to me like she was in shock (quite possibly from this hit and run) and was in a catatonic state. I think she used "death in the family" to get away from school and it was the only thing she could come up with that would be excusable. When she got into the car accident the day she went missing, that was the end all for her. I'm guessing she ran off to hide from the police, ended up getting so drunk that she passed out and froze to death.
That's everyone's favorite diagnosis these days of people who do things they A. don't understand, or B. don't agree with. Most people have no idea how difficult it is to diagnose those people, or really what the basic diagnostic parameters are. I hope people are listening to this Dr. so they stop throwing that around like their experts after reading a wiki article and episodes of shows like Breaking Bad. The other new favorite is diagnosing anyone who has weird quirks as having Aspergers Syndrome.
+Shane Bales *they're
I was in an abusive relationship. I put up with my marriage because I had a disabled daughter and a Catholic family who didn't believe in divorce. I had to escape, went into 4 shelters before dropping my car in a parking lot and having me transported to another state. My advocates wanted me to change my identity.. well 11 years later I wish I had. I can get into Maura's mindset, really
All it shows is that she was under too much stress. Doesn’t require a diagnosis or label. It’s pretty common for people under too much chronic stress to start acting out. All of her “crimes” were very minor and can be chalked up to stupid decision-making, which is a symptom of stress (anxiety) which is usually situational.
Keep in mind that families are not like you folks who have used the word obsessed, whatever that means, and talked about this case "taking over their lives". This is there life. Families want to, at some point, move ahead with their lives. Of course, that does not mean they are not always going to live with the pain of the event, but I think families do not become obsessed (with some exceptions). Books and interviews, keeping the event alive in the media and in the public does not allow families to move beyond an event. If the father needed the money and he did the interviews with that in mind, he might very well limit the questions to preserve his desire to move beyond the event.
You're going to have skeptics and believers.Skeptics believe in nothing while belivers believe in everything The truth is in between. Thank you for producing something in between.
Great job 👏 on the presentation of all the episodes… 10:51 ear balls ? 😂 that did crack me up . But- really am enjoying these videos
I have always thought some type of abuse (sexual at first) was going on. Now that pressure and stress and high achieving has been put into perspective I am going to venture to say more emotional and psychological abuse went on. Even if no one realized what was going on. When a family puts high expectations on their child and pushes them and her siblings are doing it to on a regular basis it is a form of abuse.
+Emily Walker I think you're too quick to judge (along with Renner and many others) Maura's family and her interactions with her father and other family members.
You should ask the question what is Maura's responsibility in her actions? She was no 15 year old kid, no one forced her to steal make up. Apparently Maura had other sister who actually graduated from West Point and is leading a good life now. Did her father/mother do a good job there? Has any of her friends said she experienced extraordinary pressure from her parents to succeed? is it really a bad thing to encourage your children to do so?
You dont know Maura or her family and by golly how should you suggest there was sexual abuse going on(!!!!!) when there is absolutely no evidence suggesting this as the doctor they had on said.
These are real people we're talking about so be careful with what you write online.
+SuperMariela78: I agree that it's terribly unfair and cruel to casually speculate about the Murrays' family dynamics, at least when people's theories are really just baseless gossip and include accusations of incest and abuse. Grown children's actions and choices don't always reflect how they were parented and raised. And siblings can be vastly different from one another. Just because Julie graduated from West Point and Maura transferred out, probably in part because of the theft (which in my opinion spoke to her unhappiness at the time and not to her overall morality), doesn't mean Maura was the inferior sister. They were just two different people experiencing life in dissimilar ways.
Renner himself had experience with sexual abuse. I think he is projecting this onto the Murray family.
And expecting achievement out of your kids, especially when you know they are capable, isn’t abuse.
@@SuperMariela78 She could have been 15 emotionally.
@@stephaniemac4637 - Encouraging kids is fine. But when nothing short of perfection is good enough, that's abuse.
I actually loved the psychic and thought she was amazing and had a heart ❤️ just discovering this site so I’m gonna be here awhile thanks for all your great content!
well done guys. thank you.
I was actually thinking she wanted to commit suicide because of her referencing a death in the family in which she was talking of her own intended death..... the book she brought with her seems like a psychological hint on her part........ That aside I do think she was kidnapped and killed rather then committing suicide
Yes suicide, they are overthinking it, but where do u think her clothes and backpack is?
Thank God. Things became way speculative and frankly quite offensive when people were crying "psychopath" from the limited information we have. I'm only a psychology undergraduate and to me her actions are way more indicative of someone who feels guilt/shame/panic which by definition excludes psychopathy.
One other thing that bothers me-whatever else about Fred, it is obvious to me that he is not feigning grief. I don't think he knows where she is. When you watch the Disappeared episode, if you're an empathic person, you can feel that pain. I believe him.
I say offensive because whatever happened to her, it's probably sad and she can't defend herself. I do not believe she is giggling in Canada with duping delight.
And psychopaths probably like metaphors and similes because they think it makes them sound more human. They want us to know they have feelings like the but in reality all they can use is a metaphor to try and convince us they have felt it. This guy was great
I would also float out the idea that the events of the party no one wants to talk about would include someone admitting to the hit and run of Vasi. Whether or not this person was Maura, I think it would explain why the identities of EVERYONE at that party are being protected. Another possibility is that Maura announced her plan to disappear while at this party and all are sworn to secrecy (except Sarah, who admitted the plan to Fred once and refuses to talk about it again for this reason). A third possibility is that this was less of a party and more of a planning session - everyone there was involved with Maura's disappearance and the less people known to have been there, the less people who can be questioned and lead authorities/etc. to Maura. The unnamed man she supposedly left with could easily be the 'tandem driver,' if you believe that theory.
The fact that her College buddies don't want to talk about her would make more sense if they knew she was the hit and run on Vasi. Great angle! Also, would explain her wanting to get out of town for a week to lay low.
Most people in "this community" are just looking to get their kicks.
I am telling you from experience that I believe she was on medications and having a manic reaction due to the way she was acting. drinking, stealing, depression, solemence is all apart of it. everyone was saying she was acting different and cold, look at the pic the police took, she was blank and scary looking. there are thousands of documented cases of adverse reactions to antidepressants that a undiagnosed bipolar has and they do weird things they never would do in their right mind. I was one of them and did everything she was doing I even tried to escape, writing a letter to my family and was suicidal and depressed, drinking all the time and stealing. this was the reaction to meds I shouldn't of been on for mild anxiety. I would love to see if she was on any meds.
Especially given she emptied her bank account not on something useful like food or even survival gear, but a bunch of booze then just drove off with no real plan. That’s classic manic behavior. She was also literally seeing her life fall apart around her. She got kicked out of West Point for stealing a 50 cent or $1 chapstick, wrecked her car, got a dui, got into another accident and had an open container so another dui that would severely impact her ability to become a nurse. Even without a mental illness, someone with no experience in the legal system would think their life was over.
Ich think his assessment of the case is pretty likely - he perished in the woods nearby.
There are a lot of cases that started similarly and the people have been found - sometimes years - later.
Look at the case of John Glasgow from Arkansas...very specific place he could be traced to - took seven years before hikers stumbled over him...
Greetings from Australia
My big question listening to all of these podcasts has been, Why does Renner's wife put up with this crap? Spending so much of his time, and also it seems like a fair amount of money, obsessing over a missing girl he seems to despise. I don't understand it. If my husband were off bothering some missing girl's family and friends, who he also appears to despise, and making all sorts of ugly public inferences, I would have to give him an ultimatum: get help or get a divorce attorney.
I, too, have often wondered how his wife feels about this project. I know he does not work exclusively on this, but still, she must worry sometimes that this has become an all-consuming and unhealthy fixation for him.
Melquíades the Gypsy I wondered this too especially when he was stating Olsen made the video regarding their son. That would have been it for me.
Can you imagine the dinner table in the evening.
Renner: "Do you know what I learned about Maura today?"
The Missus: "WILL YOU EVER SHUT THE F**K UP ABOUT THAT WOMAN!!!!!"
Don't his books make him money?
@@JonathanAnon especially given that he isn’t professionally trained. This exact thing happens to detectives getting to personally involved in a case all the time. He also doesn’t have a boss that can forcibly reassign him or mandate he see a specially trained psychiatrist.
Just a quick comment on why Fred may choose the media outlets that he appears on: perhaps they are paying him for his appearances / interviews. Bloggers, journalists, etc are unlikely to have the ability to pay him.
Getting out of credit card fraud without a formal charge and then getting out of a dui....I dunno man thats some skillz
Just like her sister wouldnt discuss personal conversations with the public that she had with Maura...it is none of peoples business even if she is missing. The public doesnt have a right to every aspect of her life just because she is missing. Especially since it was unrelated. Does the events leading up to her disappearing contribute? Absolutely!!! But do u need to know everything she did at a party to solve this case? Probably not. Her being drunk and promiscuous not only put her secrets out there but if u were dead..would u want ur father knowing all those details about you? As a daddys girl I would be mortified if my friends put all my business out there like that. I think she ran simply because as a 21 year old that Just got into a car accident 2 days before. .now crashed another car..with clear evidence of drinking in the car and probably in her system...my thought would be "im gettin the fuck outta here before the cops come..oh shit here comes this guy ..he wants to call the cops on me..."nope im good i called triple A"..just go away dude...im running. " This is what as a 21 year old drunk girl trying to get out of trouble is obviously thinking. Fight or flight. Thanks for allowing me to ramble :)
every theory i hear is convincing. thats what so crazy about this case. many intelligent ppl think either way and have good points.
Yeah and when one person has a theory, there’s something that comes up that makes that theory false. And its a cycle. They think they have something, then it turns out to be wrong. But thats why people like this case, its a challenge
Great job these dudes aren't messing around they want answers which is great keep it up Tim and Lance the crawlspace and M.M.M. chnl. we're on it because we want answers too. Peace from CA.
I really would hate to think she's alive or dead and just being slammed like this as a possible sociopath or being the VICTIM of incest or this and that. It's like people just demonize her.
That's the internet bs for you. Anyone who legitimately is interested in this and are professional (and therefore have some tact) presents reasonable theories involving who she might have been. Murders, and disappearances and the like don't only happen to sweet girl next doors. Sometimes shady, shitty people fall victim too. Not saying that's the case here, but it shouldn't be glossed over just because it might be shocking or upsetting to the family. Especially if it provides answers.
Her behavior prior to her disappearance, makes me think, she and she alone is responsible for whatever happened to her after the wreck. I don't think it was ironic that she disappeared right after the hit and run accident. I believe her dad also thinks she hurt herself and knows the police will not look for her under those circumstances like they would if it was an abduction.
I think Maura had bipolar disorder and bulimia. Sadly I think Maura was becoming an alcoholic to try and cope with stress. It's so sad that Maura is gone and unfortunately I don't think she will be back, I think she ran into the woods and succumb to the elements. 💔
The police said there were no footprints in the woods.
I don’t buy the sociopath theory.. I think she may have had a Borderline Personality disorder if anything.
The point was to see whether leads would come from a psychic? Makes me wonder whether I should watch anymore.
Dey should of had a search warrant for every home in a mile radius that woman could of been crazy every body is suspect
That’s not how search warrants work. You need to state exactly what you are searching for and your reason to believe it is there. For example you have to say “we are looking for a black 9mm handgun. Based on (insert all the evidence for the warrant.) We believe the gun is in their possession” you can’t just enter someone’s house fishing for evidence.
Sylvia Browne is all you need to know about psychics.
So the forensic psychologist says psychopath and nobody corrects him??
Yeah, anti-social personality disorder is proper term, and it's going change / changing now into new term and scope.
Maybe they, like me since he named Hare, tend to believe the leading authority on the subject rather than some random chick on RUclips who read a wiki page or two. Lead the psychology to the experts or take a class. It's not a good field for hobbyists as its too complicated for most people, let alone dumb asses.
Correct terminology being used lol
Great work guys keep it coming. I have a few thoughts I would like to suggest might answer some of the questions. Again these are thoughts of mine I have no proof but some of these seem to be getting too much into the aluminum foil helmet crowd.
1. The cop could have Let Maura go after wrecking her Dad's Car. If she didn't seem too messed up and he didn't feel like the hassle of the DUI paperwork, He could have gotten a hire priority call than a girl that in his mind feel asleep or wasn't paying attention. It isn't always took a bribe.
2. Why doesn't the family declare her dead? Maybe that is their last bit of hope they don't want to admit she is gone even though they publicly say she likely is
3. Why doesn't Fred, Maura's 2 friends from the party, or other family members speak with the internet community or James Renner? With as much good as this podcast is doing you yourself have seen trolls and people like Alden Olsen who seem to taunt the family. This is what the internet and press spawns. Perhaps in their minds they think real media is better than internet media, and they don't want the gut wrenching experience of watching mean spirited videos or hurtful emails.
Chris Davis I agree with everything you have said, good points. It seems we have the same view points.
and to reply to the why doesnt her friends talk about the preceding events...well if i was mauras friend at the time and i knew we had some parties that were pretty wild...drinking..sex with multiple people..etc..you dont want to paint that picture of ur friend because u KNOW that didnt have shit to do with her disappearing...it doesnt mean that they are harboring all these important info to hide anything that would contribute to finding her. And not only would I not tell the public what went on with Maura to keep Her reputation from being tarnished needlessly..but I dont want to discuss it for MY reputation. ..lol I am still here and I wouldnt want everyone knowing I was a ho that evening..and did crazy shit...just my opinion.
+Melissa Bridges Thing is, all of that "sordid" stuff isn't really even controversial. It's pretty typical college for a lot of people.
+Mango Dmm exactly!
+Melissa Bridges I agree, and I think that also partly explains the Murray family's behavior. It must be incredibly painful to not only lose your child, but to have strangers gleefully slobbering over every salacious detail of her life as it becomes public. Ultimately, Maura was a talented, driven young woman who made a few (relatively minor) mistakes, and it must be awful for the family to see those aspects of her life overshadow all the accomplishments. The family has publicly stated that they believe she died in the woods close to the car wreck. I think that is why Fred has stated repeatedly that the past "doesn't matter" and the search should focus on "what happened on Wild Ammonoosuc Road." As someone who needs to be in control (a trait his daughter shared), he wants to protect her and his family's reputation as much as possible.
Yep, I mean look at how living sexual assault victims who got carried away one night are treated. “Well you must be some crazy party person to even put yourself in a situation like that.” Or having a defense attorney going over every single mistake you’ve made as an adult to imply you somehow deserved it or made it up.
New Hampshire motto: Live free or I'll call the cops on you if you spin out on ice.
I think she wondered for some time then when to a house somewhere and asked for help. But the person got advantage of the situation.
Because i never saw SO MANY WEIRDOS in a such small stretch or road. My God
The dogs lost her scent 100 ft away from her car. She was taken.
With a degree of certainty, we can know something about if maura was pregnant or not. Her birthcontroll pills where found and four pills was missin, meaning Maura just had her period. The inventory also specified one tampon, wich fits well with that`s the remains of her stash from previous period.
Thank you! It's at least more likely that she wasn't pregnant than that she was.
I would love to see an episode focusing on named suspects that we know of. It may help to put names and faces together for your documentary. I think that would be interesting. Again this is my first podcast and I'm 34. I love anything that's true crime etc..☺ Jennifer
Where are you guys going here? Fred went to the NH Gov and pleaded for the state police to release the case records!! I get where you guys are going, but it doesn't seem like cricket to me.
Why do you think a psychic would bring new perspectives? She wasn't any more informative than any Joe off the street. Bounce this case off your grandma and she'll have just as much to say.
Wouldn't they have found some clothing somewhere in the woods, And what about the blood hounds...and the scent not leaving the road?
Interesting points. But why did cadavor dog lose her scent in middle of road? Why no footprints in snow off roadside? Why has no one has found her body or bones in woods to this day? Also, credible witness A report of nose to nose SUV vehicle at crash site between Butch and disappearance?? Based on Occam's Razor she did perish in woods though...
She was unresponsive alive & carried by butch the bus driver thats the psychopath
He really sounds like Ben Shapiro to me.
I wonder what strange extrapolations the armchair detectives would make of the safety pins holding the fabric up on the ceiling of my car and the red energy drink stains in the passenger seat should I mysteriously disappear.
Lol. If I ever went missing, my truck reflects a chaotic out of control person. I say I'm just too lazy too clean my truck.
The police said there were no footprints in the snow going into the woods.
like she had in that picture the police took. im not some conspiracy theorist I just lived what she did, high stress and wrong medication and it was a perfect storm that lead me to do things I would of never done being the healthy person I am now
anybody else notice that both psychic mentioned she was by water
Yes. And Michael Winger, the psychic from Norway, also said she was by water. But he said she got into the water the next morning & succumbed.
Crazy...especially since something like 80 percent of this planet is water. Unbelievable!!!!
I was feeling good about Dr. Eckstein's opinion regarding the case until he referred to people in New England as "libertarians". That term is WAY off base--has he looked at one of those Red/Blue political maps recently? Maybe people in the Northeast are protective of their privacy, but that doesn't make them libertarians. That he would call them that puts into question the labels he used for Maura as well.
+Ed Dentzel As a Bostonian, I think that characterization fits New Hampshire (the only place in New England he has lived in) but few other places in New England.
If she was suicidal like the professionals theory, maybe the rag in the tail pipe was the waving of the white flag so to speak. Like okay , I give up. I surrender !
Can you add English subtitles?
The description of psychopath describe say former roommate so well. Granted, she is well liked, but that's because she's always putting on a show out in public.
I definitely need to do some research on the speech patterns. This woman fits this so much and is honestly a terrifying person.
Or wondering how it is that there are records indicating that two cell phone towers are owned or managed by "Saffo" and "Dutile"?
the photo of maura is like a mugshot. she looks serious. no one is perfect.
Covering Up?? Fred Wanted/Advocated for The FBI to get involved. citation, tv interview?
I thought renner full on calling muara a sociopath was absurd in every way. since when does making some mistakes make you a sociopath?? if that’s the case then I guess we all are , bc we all make mistakes esp as a young adult. But I do believe she died in the woods I always thought that.
In a previous podcast, the psychic mentionned a female name in the car: Kate. Could that be related to this supervisor working with Maura Murray? That person was giving some kind of informations way to general. But impliying that there were more than meet the eyes? Just a though NOT a theory.
There is a really great book out there "Confessions of a Sociopath" a non-criminal sociopath who authored it, and it is brutally honest. I have done a year's worth of research for a documentary on Sociopath's but not a professor by any means-- I would not call her a sociopath by any means. I believe personally that she fits the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder. www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml. I'm not sure if he is calling her bipolar, borderline seems to fit much better. Hypomania is a form of bipolar. I don't mean to try to be an expert, but I know about Bipolar, in a very personal way, and hypomania is not a disease within itself.
She was somewhat psychic. She was good with the names. Didn't someone say something about a cop named Ben? She did pick up on that name. There are better psychics.
Whose to say she packed up her things
Ephedrine and Alcohol. I believe she was tested for drugs and found positive. She was stressed and took off. I am starting to believe something happened with the police and they took her some where and she bolted. The police know what happened and feel they are responsible. Very sad. Someone knows
AMANI Rose good point. Perfect storm.
WASN'T BEN THE NAME.OF THE COP THAT WAS A SUSPECT OR SOMETHING
what if the red wine was cover up her eating disorder but also the no foot prints means she was abducted and killed possibly by israel keyes or some local dirt bag or some in position of Authority dump her in a pond/river 30 feet from the crash of the car.
Why would she Locke her car door if she was running away?
+Stephanie Wilson Perhaps force of habit, perhaps auto locks
as crazy as it sounds, it maybe she didn't get kicked out of west point, she seems smart, maybe she joined the CIA and the whole disappeared thing is a deep cover,
She may surface again after Fred dies.
It sounds like she really wanted to make things right with her dad i believe her identity was stolen & she was killed and it wasnt even her in that car even the bus driver said it wasnt! Was dna check at the scene
17:44 Rex Heuerman
Those last 2 words my sister maybe thats your answer 40ty dollars worth of liquor what do her sister drink? hmmm wine kahlua baileys
Wheres the psychic? Im loss