Hey guys (and gals... As the case may be). Just wanted to shed some light on the whole exhaust situation. It's not as dubious as it seems. There are two reasons I was told to put a rag in my exhaust when I was driving a rust bucket as a lad. I had a car that, like Maura's had a cylinder that was not functioning properly. This causes two things to happen mechanically (two things, at the very least... Unless the problem is simply a bad plug or wire coming from the ignition.) Maura's dad has stated various places including some in-depth reporting from New England (I forget the paper, but can get it for you if you wish.), that , much like in my situation, there was at the very least a blown head gasket, which can fry a ring on a cylinder because of the lack of lubrication because of the oil being burned or leaking from the broken head gasket. This causes a lack of compression in the engine as well as oil to be mixed with the fuel being burned in the good cylinders which is expelled as black smoke and burning oil out the exhaust. Ok, the exhaust serves two functions (along with the catalytic converter), both of which can be compromised by projectile molten oil being blasted through the system. The first is a sound muffling function, and the second is a Cory of scrubbing of the exhaust coming out the tail pipe. Both of these functions add what is called "back pressure" (think resistance or pressurization ) to the cylinder chamber where the ignition of gas pushes Pistons up and down in each cylinder. Anyway, after a while you end up with little backpressure, and the partially burned oil mixed with the hot exhaust gas being expelled with it to create smoke and the situation sorta snowballs. The worse your car smokes, the worse it runs, and the lower backpressure/compression exists in your cylinders, the worse your motor runs...etc. Now, if you want to make your car run a bit better and not get pulled over because you are laying down an oil slick while your car makes an aweful racket and smokes like crazy, you put a dense (preferably fireproof) material in your exhaust that doesn't completely seal the exhaust (like the banana did in Beverly Hills Cop). Then you hope that the rag doesn't catch fire from the molten oil and unburied fuel that is being expelled because you are down a cylinder. Anyway, my dad told me to do the exact same thing when I was around 18 years old, and I am about a year older than Maura. I can also attest to the fact that it worked until I could save up enough bread to rebuild my motor. Hope this helps!
I have known of Maura's case for a long time. I have not studied every detail by far, but have read many accounts and perspectives of what happened that night, and also who Maura "was." Here are my thoughts: The entire situation sounds like Maura was grappling with untreated, undiagnosed (or perhaps diagnosed, but refusal of treatment was likely ) bipolar. Facts suggest she was experiencing a mixed state, perhaps rapidly cycling and could have consequently been on the verge of a psychotic break. If this is the case, she would have had a complete lack of judgment, limited awareness of her surroundings, and a likelihood of high risk behavior. If her state was so manic, she could have lacked full awareness of who or where she was. Her driving would likely have been horrible attributable to her state of mind, the alcohol, acute stress and who knows what else. All she knew to do was run. Drive. She wanted to escape...where and how she may not have cared. Like so many untreated bipolars, she was self medicating with substances, and recklessly drinking while driving. She would have been showing a bevy of behavior unlike her (lying,ditching school, cheating?) for some time. She may have been wrongly diagnosed at some point with anxiety which resembles mania and given inappropriate medication that augmented her mood disorder and helped along a mixed state or break. If she had been mixing meds with alcohol on top of a mood disorder and loaded with stress? Disaster. I am not sure if she had been treated at all for depression and given an SSRI, which would be another hot mess. Multiple stressors and demands, female, the right age, and high achiever-- trifecta for bp onset. She either didnt want to face particular truths, was ashamed for many actions that she nad been unable to stop, had no idea what she was doing, had a psychotic break, wanted to die...all or any of these and then met the wrong person and hence a terrible end. She also could have succumbed to the elements, OD'd, etc. I wrote this quickly, so there may be lots of typos. I am at work so writing 100 mph, but hopefully I got something across. I have always remembered Maura because I felt all along like I "got" her and exactly how she was feeling...my portrait is also above. I was the same age and under many similar circumstances. If any of this resembles the truth I wouldn't be surprised. My skin crawls with knowingness of how she felt in the car that night -- completely out of control, terrified, rapid cycling, in danger and blurry from some kind of substance. I did very similar things, but was fortunate to survive. There but by the grace of God go I.
+Mick Breen I truly appreciate that. I hoped my post could shed some light on a possibilty re: Maura, but also give information about an often misunderstood mental illness. Mental health education is needed everywhere, including YT. For what it's worth, I do believe Maura had been in crisis for some time.
@@axlsbutt4166 ya you went deep there. I definitely agree on maura but after reading your post my outlook changed a lil with the likelyness of her running away and starting a new life a possibility. I'd still lean more towards abduction and murder and maybe suicide than the new life theory but you never know. #wheresMaura
Border line also has the same effects but is more quick moving between manic and depressive states and medications don't seem to help.. people with this also self medicate. I only bring this up because I have had a very personal relationship with someone with this. He was misdiagnosed with bipolar for years... he kept saying the medications didn't work and he would have a melt down and then be fine all within hours of this.
It seems very plausible with Maura's reckless drinking and odd behavior that Maura could have been experiencing a manic episode common for bipolar disorder which the symptoms of generally show up in early to mid twenties. I recently read an article of a Vermont girl who was an addict and was kidnapped into a human trafficking ring. If she accepted a ride from the wrong person and was trapped into a human trafficking situation it could be very hard or impossible to find her. I wonder if this possibility was explored in depth.
Paige N Yes. Totally vanished. I hadn't seen his name in awhile and never knew if he or anything was ever found. I remember a strange story involving his brother and his girlfriend the night he went missing.
My first thought and I think the most logical explanation WOULD be that she crashed, was drunk, refused help to buy time to sober up, knowing police were coming she abandoned the car and decided to walk away, again being under the influence and involved in an accident mkments before she's a little out of it or maybe decides to head into the woods for more cover. She may have assumed that more cars would be out looking for her since the car was there with no driver. As she heads into the woods she gets lost, cold, and dies from the elements. However, I say this WOULD be the most logical explanation until you include her actions leading up. Emailing work and school to excuse herself for a week looks sketchy but then you could say she was planning a trip for a week. Although she was planning a trip with less than $300 for a week. Thats hard to accomplish although I guess somehow maybe possible. BUT then theirs her packing up her dorm room. It doesn't add up when everything leading up is evaluated. All these scenarios alone can come to different conclusions but together they lead nowhere. Everything leading up to the accident seems premeditated. And that's where I'm lost. Did she plan the accident? The pictures that I saw of the vehicle with the smashed windshield looks suspicious to me. The Crack in the windshield seems to be in a odd location where her head wouldn't have been able to cause it again butch never said her head was bleeding or injured. So something else had to hit it and again it's just a strange location for something inside the car to have done it and no sign of animal being hit or leaving blood. Could she have hit it to make it look like she hit something. Seems unlikely since they say Butch was at the accident scene without minutes of the accident. Not sure how they know that,, maybe the lady at the other house heard when the accident happened and saw when butch got there. Sheesh I don't know. Seems like it's hard to find the exact timeliness of events after the crash. There's also just so many things that point one direction so many that point another and again putting them together leads no where.
IF she decided to just "vanish" from the public eye, then that's on her, she can do that. However, what kind of a person(assuming she did this on her own doing) would put people who knew and loved her, and even strangers, through this pain of not knowing what happened to her. Starting over is one thing, but this goes way beyond that. If that is the actual situation, she would have to have something serious to hide, or not want exposed. My ex-husband used to be really bad about relocating, moving from place to place very often. It didn't matter how that impacted his family at all. What i realised was, he was trying to stay one step ahead of others finding out who he really was. He never wanted to be recognized for his real self, but if he stuck around long enough, you'd see who he really was. That was some serious psychopathic behavior, and this story reminds me of that type of behavior.
I think she took off and died accidentally. I think her remains are in the forested area somewhere near the accident. When I say near I mean the remains could be miles away. She was a runner and in pretty good shape so her remains could be 20+ miles away from the accident. Especially if animals got to her body. Plus don't forget running generates body heat. Are there any rivers in the area? They should be searched if they haven't been already. If she did indeed die somewhere in the nearby forests, it wouldn't take long for animals to get to her. That would make it pretty much impossible to find her remains. I hope this case is solved someday.
Good work on the first episode. Sound quality and production was great. Very informative too. Cant wait for you guys to get into the details because that is when this case becomes really interesting. A schedule for upcoming episodes would be nice but coming soon will have to do I guess. ;) If you have any guests on it would be really interesting to hear from someone directly involved in the case as this is a real rarity.
And the Journey down this missing case road has begun. The thing that always gets me is looking at google maps and staring at the spot her car was found. I run a hundred scenarios in my head on her crashing and getting out and then it blows my mind that she disappeared. Some of these cases Brandon Lawson, Brandon Swanson, Maura Murray, Brianna Maitland, Zebb Quinn, the case of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon (possibly spelt wrong). All these cases have absolutely bizarre circumstances. Also thinking about her story, it seems so strange that she would book rooms at 2 different places. Normally if you book at one spot you would think she could make it to her destination from there. She was 3 years into nursing school and there would be almost no way that she would out up with that for that long just to quit and disappear afterward. Also all these cases there is nearly ZERO physical evidence. In this day in age with DNA testing and everything we have the capability to do it is beyond strange that we haven't seen anything at all. Normally if someone goes missing on their own accord they leave behind clues months leading up to the disappearance. The weird part about this case is this. Let's just pretend she was in her hometown. People know each other and can usually see odd people who stick out by not being from the area. So if something happened to her in her hometown it would be a case of who knew her and wanted to kill her. UNLESS she was being closely followed and was so unlucky to crash that the person following had the perfect opportunity to take her, I find it so weird that she was way way far away from home. Who would know exactly where she was and that she would crash there unless someone followed her. If nobody followed her how would someone with intent to kill be around exactly at that time she crashes and was able to leave no trace and completely disappear? Something is extremely off here either she was stalked and tried to get away for a while , with her telling that truck driver she already called AAA in a day in age with flip phones and terrible coverage for some strange reason maybe she was trying to disappear but in this day in age no way could she live under the radar with all the background checks and need for Id to do anything unless she is living under a rock. Third theory would be the truck driver or a truck driver spotted her and had a quick opportunity to make their move or something. I just cannot get over the strange facts. The phone call, the rag, the crash site all of it blows my mind so far away I just cannot understand what the f happened. Only other guess would be she went walking and had the intention of suicide the way time and planned on doing so at the place she rented rooms maybe was deciding on which one. When she crashed she realized she would have to probably call home and they would know where she was so she lied to the truck driver and as soon as he was out of sight she disappeared and went and killed herself somewhere in the wilderness. I just don't know what to think. Edit: Also another couple things. First Butch Atwood is suspicious as hell. If he didn't pull up and take her then the only other scenario I imagine would be her getting in a car with someone else but she told the trucker she was fine and called the AAA so it wouldn't make much sense to then get in a car right after saying that. So much speculation and circumstantial evidence that it will probably never be solved.
I am quite new to listening to the podcast but I am really enjoying it. I have known about the Maura Murray case for a few years since the Oxygen documentary was released. The same situation with the Phoenix Coldon case which I see is covered more recently. I have noted a few comments down for the episodes I have listened to and sorry, if a lot of these have been covered. Great job Tim and Lance, thank you for a great podcast.
Some helpful info on cell phone service. I do not work for a cell phone company however, for about the Last 7 to 8 years have had issues with service I never had before (lived same place for 12 years) a cell engineer explained to me why that happened. About 8 years ago all cell phone companies went digital where before that they were all analog. He explained that analog can go over and around stuff such as mountains etc but could only reach a short distance. Digital can not and signals are straight but can reach further. so Maura may have had ok service to call out back then and should no way be compared to phone signal of today. Just a thought.
It sounds and seems like she was planning on committing suicide. I'm not sure what ended up happening, but I think getting picked up by some random person within a time span of a few minutes, with multiple witnesses observing the scene during that time, is so unlikely that it probably didn't happen. I think she drank herself to sleep in the woods and died from hypothermia. Maybe she went to an area where she didn't think people would find her. I've followed the case closely and I'm pretty sure I've heard every piece of evidence that's publicly available. I think Fred's strange behavior may have stemmed from guilt, he might feel responsible for her possible suicide, or even the trip itself.
not an easy thing to do without being found. especially right after a crash when you have no idea where you are and teh whole world is looking for you. also, she never used her phone or debit card again??
The fact that people in the comments are condoning stuffing rags into the exhausts of a car blows my mind. I've been wrenching on cars for 25 years and I've never heard of doing that unless you want your engine to choke up and die. I called a friend who runs his own shop and has been a certified mechanic for 30 years and he said the same thing- you block your exhaust, your car doesn't run. Period.
Hi guys. I just wanted to make some random comments about all the episodes that I've seen so far. I grew up in the town next to Hanson (where Maura was from), in Rockland, MA, so I remember her disappearance being all over the news back in 2004. I also found out it interesting because she was a girl that was my age. Back in 2004, I was 21 and working for Starbucks. And I keep putting the year 2004 in perspective. I had a cell phone at the time (that I barely used). Everyone had them but were mainly using them for emergencies. Texting was in existence but it was very limited. People were mainly only texting each other to ask simple questions, such as, "Are you running late?" or "What time do you think you'll get here?" People weren't having full-blown conversations via texting either. Google maps didn't exist. Finding directions still meant stopping at gas stations, convenience stores, etc. Facebook existed but only if you were a college student and had a college email address. So although, 2004 was only a little over 10 years ago, technology-wise it feels almost like 20 years ago. Also, in 2004, was the kind of birth of online dating. It was very taboo to be participating with online dating. A lot of people didn't have pictures on their profiles. You had to actually "scan" your photos to get them onto your computer. The first girl I met from the internet didn't even have a picture. I had to take her word for what she looked like. Since there weren't a lot of people doing online dating, it was a lot easier to find a "connection" with someone than there is now. I remember talking to a lot of girls at the time that were traveling to other states such as New York, Connecticut, etc to go on dates. Unlike now, where there are probably at least 20 women looking to date even in the smallest of towns. The reason I'm saying all this is...because I think Maura was going to meet someone from the internet the night she disappeared. I think the reason that Maura was so "out of it" the days before her disappearance is because she was having a sort of "moral crisis" about potentially leaving her boyfriend and meeting a stranger from the internet of whom she may have had a stronger connection with, or he could have been an older male with money, or a nice house, or anything that would appeal to most normal 21 year old women. I don't believe that Maura left to start a new life. Taking out $360 would not get you far, even in 2004. Most decent hotels at that time still cost around $100 a night. And the fact of the certain types of alcohol that she purchased. She wasn't buying the type of alcohol where it says, "I'm gonna get a hotel room for a few days and get wasted." Most of that would be beer, wine, vodka with a mixer, or whiskey with a liter of Coca-Cola. She bought "party" drinks. Drinks that a college girl would be comfortable drinking and would probably know by attending parties what her tolerance would be if she consumed those drinks. And if you were going to go to a hotel room for a few days and get wasted, you wouldn't buy all your alcohol in one night. Unless you made reservations at a hotel, you wouldn't know if your hotel room came with a fridge, had an ice machine in the building, etc. Here are some of my opinions that differ from the opinions shared on this podcast: ...About Maura returning her friend's lab coat.... She may not have been just planning her suicide and tying up loose ends, it may just show that although she was extremely overwhelmed by her life at the moment, that she was still thinking of other people, and wasn't completely selfish at the moment. ...About "Stefanos" at the party.... We don't know if that party every existed. If it did exist, possibly the reason that no one from the party ever came forward, was that there could have been hard drugs at the party. If there were more than drinking and weed, and such as something like cocaine was happening at the party, I could understand why college students wouldn't want that part of the party coming to light. Also, "Stefanos" could have been a guy she met at the party that encouraged Maura to travel to meet this "online mystery man." She could have explained her "moral crisis" during the party and he could have encouraged her not to officially break it off with her boyfriend, and go and meet this man who possibly lived in upstate New Hampshire or Vermont. The reason he may have never came forward is guilt. If he encouraged her to do this and something horrible ended up happening to her, I could understand not coming forward. ...About the man that picked Maura up....He may not have been the man that made Maura disappear. He could have just been a good Samaritan that saw a damsel in distress and gave her a ride. He could have just dropped her off where she wanted to go, or could have dropped her off somewhere and then her "online" friend picked her up from there. If he was merely a good Samaritan that just gave her a ride, the reason he never came forward is that he was not a local man. He could have just been traveling and never thought twice about looking up the car accident on the news. I know lots of people that don't watch the local news or read the paper, let alone know what's going on in the world. I could understand blissful ignorance. ...About her "online" friend...If he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance, he may have never come forward to say that he was expecting Maura because he could have been married, been lying about who he was, etc. Those are just some of my thoughts. I find this story thought-provoking and fascinating. I really enjoyed your podcast guys. Keep up the good work. ~Will
+Will Doherty I started following this podcast in mid September. It's truly one of the most thought-provoking mysteries from the last 11 years. You make some interesting observations & hypotheticals. With such limited evidence, Maura's disappearance always comes down to 'wrong place, wrong time' for me. A crime of opportunity. I have a perfectly smart friend who jumped into the car of a stranger to get away from an aggressive pursuer. She'd just finished a late shift at a restaurant and was waiting to catch a bus when some guy started harassing her on the sidewalk. This other guy pulls up in a red porsche and offers her a ride. She sized him up, figured he was the lesser of two evils and got into his car. Luckily he was a good samaritan who took her straight home. Bad judgement (or bad options) can happen in a split second and you're at the mercy of a stranger. I've always suspected Israel Keyes may have abducted Maura, but his modus operandi doesn't quite fit. He was highly organized and left little to chance.
The strongest theory for sure is that Maura died from exposure. There are a couple of flaws in that theory though. Maura's jeans, jacket, black backpack, shoes, liquor bottles...skeletal remains...were never found. Most people think the bloodhounds would have found something.
This theory is improbable as the police would have been able to follow her computer trail, even in 2004, and would have discovered ant communication. they know all the calls and internet searches she made. I doubt she could hide all the online dating info and communication with a rendezvous.
I didn't read all of that I stopped when you mentioned you think she met someone online. What evidence has been presented to assume she was doing any online dating? Also, she had been in other relationship with other men and it didn't seem to put her in a moral crisis. Also, she's left one school because of things she's done, she's been drinking and partying, and getting into car accidents I doubt the "stigma" of online dating or the "backlash" she could receive from it was the least of her worries.
Hey. Just want to say to anyone starting this podcast who listens and thinks it sucks, it does actually get way better in later episodes -- fewer opinions, more facts, interesting guests. If you know anything about the case, skip around. Especially recommend the episodes with interviews. You won't always agree with what's said, but it's fascinating to hear the points of view of different people who have immersed themselves in the case. They also manage to snag some interviews with some of the fringe players in the story that you may have read about, and it's very, very interesting to see what they say for themselves, as opposed to what someone says they said. Good stuff I don't think you'll hear anywhere else.
This is the first i have heard of her. After watching this one video, my initial belief is she ran off into the woods and something bad happened to her-she accidentally died in some form or another. She had wrecked her fathers car in the days before and then wrecked her car, in both cases possibly drinking. She probably was so frightened and upset she ran off into the woods thinking she would work her way back home or somewhere safe to sober up first. In the woods at night, in the cold and possibly being drunk is not a good combination. Possibly injured herself, got lost and died of hypothermia. Even though the woods were searched it is not uncommon for a missing persons body never to be found for many years later. The only thing that gets to me is the rag in the tailpipe thing. I have never heard of anyone thinking that would help a car. I have had cars with the exhaust get clogged up due to mechanical problems and it would barely go over 20mph-it literally felt like the car was being choked out. Not to mention the fact of all the carbon monoxide flowing up into the cars passenger area.
One more thing I would like to add. The rag in the muffler pipe is a huge red flag. A muffler gets up to approx 500-600 degrees Fahrenheit once it reaches operating temps. If that rag had been there for any amount of time it would've burned up (if it was even porous/positioned to allow exhaust flow to be emitted allowing the car to run in the first place.) Putting a rag in the muffler pipe serves ZERO purpose except to restrict exhaust flow and stall the engine. If she did have a bad headgasket as claimed by Fred the car would've never made it that far. It would've burned through the coolant and overheated the engine destroying it. A lot of what Fred says makes zero sense. This story has way too many red flags. And her stuffing it there as a suicide attempt can be ruled out as well. First the car wouldn't run with a restricted exhaust. Second the fumes from the exhaust have no way to penetrate the cabin unless there were holes in the floor board of the car. But even in that case the fumes would be way too diluted to have an effect. With a car that's only 8 years old at the time, I don't see that being the case. And Saturns are known to stand up to rust pretty well as many of their panels are made from a non-metallic material. Why doesn't someone (perhaps the police??) bring a battery to the location of the car and run a simple compression test? It would literally take 5 minutes and requires no technical expertise and the engine doesn't have to even be operable as it is only turned over. You can find step by step instructions on how to do it on youtube but even still I suggest having the procedure done by a mechanic under the supervision of investigators as the mechanic could also do a leak down test on the engine and there are procedures required for a car that's been sitting for this amount of time. This would shed light on the condition of the engine. Clock is ticking though because eventually the oil rings will dry up but even at this date if done properly you should get a pretty good idea of the condition of the engine when she was driving it and see if Fred's story about the headgasket, low compression, checks out. To me the rag makes zero sense and I know cars and engines. Even if it was burning oil or coolant stuffing a fricken rag in the muffler is going to do diddly squat except fuck the engine up more making it backfire, stall out, and be inoperable. Only person who wouldn't want a compression test done on the engine would be someone with something to hide. I think the rag could've been some sort of "checkpoint" marker between her and Fred. edit: wow found this post from mauramurray.blogspot.ca/2011/08/lavoie-says-fred-murray-explained.html "Yes, James, Marybeth Conway was asked to do a piece for her award winning article and she said he (Fred) would NOT return his calls. He wanted the car smashed, crushed. Something in there we should known't about? He didn't want to pay the towing fee........I thought he wanted to look inside. Was he given time to do that and found nothing. Now they're holding it as evidence?" WOW Fred knows something. He told her to put a rag there to limit the smoke? LOL that's a crock of shit. Comon Fred don't try to make fools out of us, as it has a reverse effect and you're the one who ends up looking foolish and with something to hide. Were playing chess here not checkers and I know your moves and you're about two moves away from being checkmated. I understand the car is under police custody. Someone should forward the request to the police to do a compression/leak down test on the engine and figure out it's condition. This would open up avenues of investigation. If Fred is full of shit then we know HE KNOWS what happened that night.
I'm listening in Nov. of 2019. I've watched multiple RUclipsrs cover this and read the book 'True Crime Addict', but I haven't listened to your coverage of the case. This has been recommended several times by RUclipsrs, so I added it to my list of things to check out. I have listened to a couple Crawlspace episodes, and they were good. I'm excited about this!
Jesus, you guys just go on and on and on about the same thing 5/6 times, with this guy, umming and oohing, and unable to string a sentence looking for words, then explain certain obvious things million times, and articulation just shows so much lack of confidence that you have to try to convince the listener that you are making some sense and speak as if what you just said is very important!!! It has been an extremely frustrating experience...
Mauras living her best life in Quebec Canada! No need to worry she's been seen several times over the years . My friend was one of them who saw her. It was her she swears and knows this case as we all do . She's married happily with kids . Leave her alone !! She dosent want to be found clearly
Drunk drivers have been known to flee the accident to sober up and then return to the scene later with a story explaining the accident that doesn't include them being drunk.
I know I'm late to the "party" but I just found the podcast. Maybe someone else already said this so please forgive me if I'm commenting on something already talked about or a minor detail. But at least as it was explained to me from someone who has way more knowledge of the mechanics of cars then me stuffing a rag in a tailpipe and then driving the car around would be the same as putting a bag over your head and running around. The car will eventually run out of air and stall out just the way you'd run out of air and pass out. There is no good reason to ever put a rag in a tailpipe as a way to fix something but an excellent way to cause a problem, unless her objective was to kill herself.
My personal opinion is that of Norwegian psychic Michael Winger. I think she wandered off to the nearby River to sober up & fell asleep. When she woke up, she was in Moderate to Severe Hypothermia & not thinking clearly. She got into the river & died of exposure. Remember, the high temp that day was 32 degrees, but the low that night was -7 degrees. She was not well-covered & could easily have died of Hypothermia. No matter how physically fit a person is, it's tough to not get Hypothermia when it's -7 degrees & you're not dressed for it. I think it was just a tragedy. I pray she is found soon.
*Shits on internet detectives 30 minutes later: Goes into long speculatory tangent about the rag in the tailpipe. It’s literally the only piece of evidence in this case that actually has a reasonable explaination and you’re making it sound unreasonable. The rag wasn’t meant to prevent the car from breaking down, it was meant to block exhaust smoke to avoid detection from police because she was just in a drinking and driving accident. I don’t know why people can’t just draw the simple conclusion that she probably tried to hide in the woods from police and ended up dying of hypothermia at an unknown location nearby
THIS IS A VERY, VERY DISTURBING, SAD CASE, THE POLICE REALLY FUCKED THIS INVESTIGATION UP, FRED MY FAMILY LOVES YOU, AND IS PRAYING FOR YOU, HOPEFULLY SHE JUST GOT AMNESIA FROM THE WRECK AND IS OK JUST HAS TO BE FOUND THAT'S WHAT MY FAMILY STRONGLY BELIEVES HAPPENED. WE TOTALLY BELIEVE SHE IS ALIVE TOTALLY BELIEVE THAT
She’s here in Portland Oregon. Street person, addicted to what I assume was heroin. Saw her quite regularly as I went through some street living times myself. I haven’t stayed down there since, 2010? Maybe 2011. You have an email? I’ll send a pic I have of us together from winter of 2009
This case has fascinated me from day one! I’ve never understood how the friends can’t remember Anything about the party I cannot understand where all the alcohol went after she crashed I cannot understand why butch’s house and bus weren’t searched ASAP I cannot understand why the stories all changed by the neighbors somewhat anyway it’s just so much butch couldn’t identify her in the first picture they showed him I could go on n on ( y’all were great on the oxygen series I think she ran on foot obviously not wanting to get in trouble with a Second car crash involving alcohol in 3 days she’s in the woods somewhere dead
This is what I always come back to as well. I think she was going up there to at least think about suicide in the first place and when this happened it was the final straw and she took her alcohol, maybe some sleeping pills, went deep in the woods and either committed suicide or died from exposure. Before anyone comments “they would have found her” NOT. NECESSARILY. According to plenty of other stories of other people who went missing in heavily wooded areas.
Just a thought on the windshield...Im wondering if perhaps the box of wine flew into the windshield? Wasn't the winebox damaged or leaking? So perhaps it hit the windshield and that would explain also the red stains they found.
I'm new to this podcast today... I have been to upper state NY in the woods but what is the wild animal population like up that way in NH? If we are talking about poor poor cell phone coverage & this is deep in the woods-- is there any possibility if she did go into the woods to "run away" that something could have gotten to her? Were the woods ever deeply searched? Are there wild dogs? Rag in the tailpipe? Really DAD? REALLY?!
There are all kinds of animals in New England. Wolves, bears and coyotes for sure. She either got picked up and taken away and god knows what happened to her or she got killed by wild animals.
I am just listening to the series of podcasts 2018. My thoughts on Ep. 1 was there was a lot of speculation about this case. The biggest thing that jumps out to me is that when someone sees an accident they are suppose to stop at the scene. Bus driver's have radio's in their bus to call for help. Leaving a young girl (even if she said she was fine) was not cool. I have a problem with Butch having different answers for a simple situation. Its strange that witnesses stated they saw her but then she was gone in very few minutes. It would also be kind of tough to walk into the woods when there was a snow bank and drifting snow.
One other thing, Kleptomania, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bulimia nervosa and clinical depression could have been all affecting Maura at the time of her disappearance. Personality disorders are hard to diagnose completely. Have to weigh in the alcohol use with possible disorders. Two car accidents happening very close together and possibly hitting her head the night she crashed and disappeared.
Regarding the crack in the windshield. If there was “red liquid” (let’s assume that’s wine) on the driver’s side and roof of the car, it’s possible that the Diet Coke bottle filled with wine flew out of her hand during the accident and hit the windshield (and wine came out, spilling onto the driver’s side door, the roof, and probably Maura). Since the bus driver said he couldn’t see her bleeding, it’s unlikely that that was her head. That could also explain why she was shivering (aside from the shock), she was probably soaked in 30 degree weather.
I'm from Amherst, so it's just so mesmerizing that I know all of these locations. Both of my parents went to UMass, we sell produce to them, and go to some meetings so I definitely know my way around there. I actually never heard of the case till recently, I mean, it's definitely not a conventional conversation starter, but you'd expect it to slip at least once. People love to say nothing bad happens here, and maybe they're right. Most issues around here happen in Springfield, Holyoke, etc which can get pretty rigid, so I can only imagine where she ended up.
The rag in the tail pipe thing is the weirdest. To me, a rag in the tail pipe indicates trying to commit suicide. Especially after all the suicidal indicators otherwise.
So it's likely that someone out there reading this knows exactly where her remains are. Why not at least come up with a creative way to trade that information for the reward money and give her family and friends a measure of solace?
Cuz if someone tried that they would probably be arrested. If i went to the police and said “hey give me money and ill tell you where she is or where her remains are” that probably wouldn’t go over so well. Or they wouldn’t believe me and think im some crazy guy who wants attention
Emily Walker Well not in the you will get hurt kind of way (i think) but there is no benefit to it and it will damage your car from what I can find online. But Fred is strange, you will probably notice this more as the show goes on. ;)
The clue is in what she said... there's a death in the family. That's not normal. Then she disappears. I also believe there was a book in the car titled: "Not Without Peril" (if i'm remembering correctly)... which means not without "danger". Reedit is the worst place for misinformation. The rag "partially" covering the exhaust may have helped with a starting problem. It isn't normal to tell people there is a death in the family when there isn't one.
Yeah that always made me think she did this on purpose, by this I mean run away, I feel like she lied a lot her last weeks she was seen to her friends and family so no one would question her motives.
A rag (I used to hear about steel wool pads also being used, back in the day) is used to quiet a muffler! Cars used to pass inspections, or not, before they had computers to hook up to cars. A really loud muffler would cause you to fail inspection. Some people, who couldn't afford a new muffler at the time, would stuff rags in the tailpipe. Also, I'm sure it's the same now, the police would pull you over if the muffler was too loud. I don't know why her father would have ever told the cops he told her to put it in there to help the car to run better and to keep it from sputtering. There must be a miscommunication somewhere. Surely, he wasn't that stupid! That wouldn't have helped at all.
I really enjoyed listening to this and will continue to do so, but wanted to point you in the direction of a discussion on reddit, in case you want some feedback or want to hop into the discussion: www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3du8f7/a_new_serialstyle_podcast_delves_into_the/ Best of luck, and looking forward to the next episode (about to start the second one!!!)
SassyTabby Thanks Sassy. We do actually mention that link at the end of episode two as well. We definitely want to keep this discussion going. We want to hear all theories and will eventually cover listener theories on the show. Thanks for the support!
Missing Maura Murray hey guys, been interested in this case for years. maura was the same age as me! thought this was interesting... I live with a mechanic. there is NO reason to put ANYTHING in the tailpipe of a car, other than to commit suicide by hooking a pipe into the cab to fill up with carbon monoxide. obstructing the tailpipe would make the car run worse, if at all. I figured so but asked my friend just in case. this is not even an old remedy, it's very strange. the only other reason the would be a rag in there would be an emergency rag for when your car breaks down.
Just think about it, your very first episode outta how many youve done, and you start out by talking about how steered this case is by certain entities. On your very first episode! Your first reaction episode to this case is like a first instinct. Yours was theres alot of steering going on. And there is. Dont become apart of that wheel if you want to know the truth
How would the dad know their was a rag in the tailpipe if she put it there to conceal her attempt to clean up the alcohol. Also, why hide her attempt to clean up alcohol but not remove the alcohol itself. She could have just thrown the box of wine in the woods before walking off. The father said he told her to do it others have confirmed this is an old school backyard mechanic method of helping with the car. There doesn't seem to be any mystery surrounding this and I think the police just had so little to go on from the time of the accident on that they were really just trying to cover everything.
Where is episode 18? I plan on driving to her crash site this summer. I just want to stand there and just see what I feel and if I could see anything. Chances are she is gone and never to be seen again. All these cases just have me staring at my phone looking at google maps thinking about what her last moments in that car was. All the way on the boarder of NH and with the directions of her travels she was clearly going to Vermont. This is just beyond creepy. Any kind of rough terrain nearby if anyone knows?
It's not uncommon for people to pour alcohol into a can of Coke to make it look like she's drinking coke. I hate to admit, but I've done the same thing, and I've been drinking while driving. I was recently in a bad car accident and had been drinking and I highly considered running away but my phone was about to die and I wouldn't have known where to go. But a dwi pretty much ruins your life. My license is suspended for a year, ankle monitor for 30 days not mention all the money my poor parents have had to pay for lawyers and a fine. So I could definitely itely see why Maura begged for someone to not call the police cuz she knew she would've gotten a dwi and open bottle. I have a feeling she got into Butch's bus and asked him to not say anything and maybe pleaded that she would've gotten a dwi and to not say anything to help her out. So I definitely think he's hiding something.
Has it be absolutely confirmed she was really the driver? The statement from the bus driver was eerie and made me think maybe someone posing as her drove the car- meanwhile she's actually gone the opposite direction? 🤔🤓 If they have ruled this out then good. This is prob one of these cases of me thinking to deep.. 🙃
Even in Arkansas mid-thirties is pretty damn cold. Really enjoying this podcast thus far. My first one by the way and I really enjoy true crime stories.
Reminds me a few weeks ago in the middle of the night, some idiot in a stolen car crashed into a house at the end of my street. Thankfully hardly any damage was done to the house. The person took off on foot and the cops were out with scent dogs trying to track them down. Whoever it was got lucky cause I don't think the cops found em.
Eurghh, this is quite tedious. The main guy over-reaches at any given point, trying to reach for conspiracy or any kind of explanation he can grab at. The other guy is much more level-headed, and tries to deal with the facts that are known, rather than wild conjecture.
One thing is for sure, anyone who's had a family member go missing (especially an adult kid) and allows these discussions to go on without screaming out to defend themselves has something to hide. I felt really bad for Maura's dad when I watched him on an episode of "Disappeared". Now I want my empathy back! lol...I feel so cheated. If Maura wanted to start over again, why not go to police and tell them so that she can be left alone. Ahh, but then again if she did she'd be held accountable for things like credit cards? Isn't the who idea of going missing is to remain out of the spot light. This is more of an attention seeking behavior. If everything being said here is true, then like you said she really is a sociopath...
If u didn't want to be found the LAST thing you would ever do is contact police. Police would tell the family and the family would plead for her to return home. If she did run away, she obviously really wanted to start over. I've had thoughts of that, but I could never do that to my parents. But it seems like the police don't really help, they just !make things worse. I'm not a big fan of police officers, I think they ruin lives !ore than help.
@@jjchick95 exactly who in their right or even wrong mind says I'm going to go missing let me give the police a heads up and tell them not to tell my family and allow me to continue to be assumed missing and possibly dead. Blows my mind how people use no common sense when coming up with these scenarios
Unfortunately, to me it looks like a terrible accident. Being an avid runner is very consistent with a bulimia. Its been noted that her weight was 120 and she was 5'7", if she was actively bulimic prior to this happening, along with the drinking it would make her more susceptible to intoxication as well as hypothermia. I think she may have just started walking and at some point succumbed to the weather somewhere very close to the highway.
Jeeze! She was only 21. The things that she was in trouble for were minor. Kids make mistakes. All American girls make mistakes. It doesn't make her a bad person. They are definitely not reasons to run away
i am just beginning to look into this case. from what little i've read, and it hasn't been much, my skepticism kicked in. sounds like this young lady had a ton of issues and problems, and was running from reality. you have summed up these problems well. i love it when someone is so knowledgeable about a case. ty
This case is pretty interesting. One thing I would like to add. The credit card fraud part makes me think for sure she started a new life and was able to obtain a new identity. I don't buy the part about her picking up a receipt from a trash can at all. CC numbers are truncated on a receipt there is no way for that to work, and you also require the CCV, expiry, billing address in some cases, etc. What I think is more likely is she was into the carding scene which was really in its heyday from the late 90's to mid 2000's until the secret service pretty much infiltrated and made everything go even more underground at which point it turned into a paranoid freak show. There were more than a few posts on those sites back then about people looking for advice on how to completely start over. These were sites easily accessible such as shadowcrew and carderplanet (google you will find info) during that time were you could EASILY buy a new identity from verified vendors. A nefarious person could acquire forged checks, bank logins, actual plastic credit cards, credit card numbers (meant for online), Identities, manuals on how to obtain a new identity, skimmers, and the list goes on. Add this to the $4000 (which is approximately what people used to charge for complete identities with a passport and everything) her dad pulled out and it's pretty clear to me what happened. How do I know about all this? I was around 18 and never got involved but had an older friend who was a small timer on those sites and I browsed them occasionally as I found the information/threads there fascinating. And to add to this apparently in Canada it's not hard at all to obtain a new identity. I read a news article that an individual was found to have assumed a new identity practically their entire life but was only found out after they had passed away, don't recall but some discrepancies tipped authorities. edit found it: www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/06/14/the-truth-about-mike.html sound eerily similar too. ditched car, man in 20's disappears without a trace, etc. Just throwing that out there. Something about her "mugshot" picture the look in her eyes I see something and I think this might of been it. Someone out there knows something, and they might not even be aware of it.
@ around 31:30, I was once in a crash and the windshiled wasn't damaged, but my first reaction (stupid, I know, and I never act like that) was to punch it, I had been drinking and I didn't think it would break but it did and at the end people just assume dit had been my head but the position was way too high.
I’m wondering what she was running from and why? Then she’s drinking and driving and had she become suicidal in her own mind? From the description of the windshield it sounds as though she hit her head on the window shield which is the frontal lobe of the brain. Did she develop amnesia? She had to have been in a state of confusion no doubt! So she’s drinking and driving, upset obviously, has an accident, tells another driver that she’s called triple A. My feeling is she was abducted by another traveler who stopped to take advantage of her situation. Is she still alive and sold for sex trade? Or is she dead?
According to a bus driver, he was able to talk to a women (probably maura) who was sitting next to the broken car, he said that she wasn't harmed and he asked if she wanted any help she said that she already called for urgency but the bus driver claimed that there is no phone service on that area . Before this conversation a women claimed that she saw a man next to the car but the bus driver didn't . Few minutes later a women who was passing by on her car said that she saw a police car next to Maura's car but there was no one in either one of the cars I guess, but the police arrived 9 minutes later. So who are supposed to believe the car driver?the police? This case is really complicated and strange but it's also quite interesting I wish I was there 15 years ago
Bit late with this, I know. But people can build up their problems in their minds to the point they feel unsurmountable. I think Maura's recent history could easily lead to such feelings. You're the track star, then you're stealing, you have DUIs... you're away from home and worried about your sister...maybe you had a car accident of some kind nobody knows about...
Man I grew up in a party college town with the highest DUI's rate In the country..lots of young people crashing into things drunk..i dont know how many times we saw or came across cars wrecked and the young drunk drivers panicked and just ran off hoping i guess to avoid a dui...as kids we would liberate these cars of anything left in them...booze,cd's,college text books(good money for resale) ect..we never broke into cars otherwise but for some reason i guess we felt more comfortable taking stuff in this situation..not sure why realy maybe because we figured the theft would be the least of their problems and they'd just be happy they got away without a dui..or maybe we knew they wouldnt be calling police..whatever reason everybody did it that otherwise wernt bad kids and didnt normally steal..I think more than anything we were trying to find weed, alcohol, or cigarettes usualy..this brings me to my point, I think somebody may have liberated the alcohol and other items from her wrecked car and we are getting a skewed view of what realy was and wasnt with her
Yeah cause there was lots of pedestrians walking around on that dark back road in the winter and they just so happened to be there at the perfect time at 8 at night and they stole everything out of her car within 7 minutes before anyone even saw them. Yeah. 🙄
Man at this time "mind erasers" were a big college party drink and are made with those liquers along with Sprite or 7up..there sucked from the bottom up with a straw like a kind of shot...racing with these was incorporated Into different drinking games..however you do it they are never made for drinking alone or with one other person..100% a party shot for multiple people..with the amounts she bought I think she may have been getting "party favors" I think there was a party happening or about to happen somewhere..if this was the case why hasn't no one came forward saying she didnt show up?
I was also wondering about that. Not fingerprints, but DNA/bodily fluids/fibers/etc. I also had a thought that people block their exhaust to kill themselves inside the car from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Right imagine if in reality she took his offer up and went to his house and butch and his wife raped and murdered maura. I wonder if his wife is still alive
i believe she is still alive there is also a man that staged his disappearance that was on the show disappearance and was found years later. I think she was drunk in both car accidents. anyone know what prescriptions she was on?
From memory I think he was driving home and he planned on parking the bus at his home overnight which was not uncommon for bus drivers to do. However you have a good point if school finishes around 3pm that would still be 4 hours later
The rag in the tailpipe? Without knowing Mr. Murray or impinging upon his reputation, I think this is sinister advice. I say this because, once, someone put heavily packed dirt in both of the dual exhuast pipes of the Honda I drove. We called around to repair shops and mechanics to see whether this was malicious. Most were under the consensus that, as one of you mentioned, this was dangerous because, 'Where does the exhaust go?' Someone thought it might explode. I am aware that she had crashed his vehicle prior to her own car crash. Perhaps, he was bitter. -- Pure speculation
As far as I understand he’s been ruled out although he’s definitely a creeper he (as per NH State police) has nothing to do with it. Also look up Brianna Maitland who disappeared on March 19, 2004 in Vermont on that same route 112. She has not been seen or heard from since.
If you think about the chief has motor violations and accidents similar to this....kind of crazy he lost his job over similsr circumstances...except maybe before there was a cover up?
Hey guys (and gals... As the case may be).
Just wanted to shed some light on the whole exhaust situation. It's not as dubious as it seems.
There are two reasons I was told to put a rag in my exhaust when I was driving a rust bucket as a lad. I had a car that, like Maura's had a cylinder that was not functioning properly. This causes two things to happen mechanically (two things, at the very least... Unless the problem is simply a bad plug or wire coming from the ignition.) Maura's dad has stated various places including some in-depth reporting from New England (I forget the paper, but can get it for you if you wish.), that , much like in my situation, there was at the very least a blown head gasket, which can fry a ring on a cylinder because of the lack of lubrication because of the oil being burned or leaking from the broken head gasket. This causes a lack of compression in the engine as well as oil to be mixed with the fuel being burned in the good cylinders which is expelled as black smoke and burning oil out the exhaust.
Ok, the exhaust serves two functions (along with the catalytic converter), both of which can be compromised by projectile molten oil being blasted through the system. The first is a sound muffling function, and the second is a Cory of scrubbing of the exhaust coming out the tail pipe. Both of these functions add what is called "back pressure" (think resistance or pressurization ) to the cylinder chamber where the ignition of gas pushes Pistons up and down in each cylinder. Anyway, after a while you end up with little backpressure, and the partially burned oil mixed with the hot exhaust gas being expelled with it to create smoke and the situation sorta snowballs. The worse your car smokes, the worse it runs, and the lower backpressure/compression exists in your cylinders, the worse your motor runs...etc.
Now, if you want to make your car run a bit better and not get pulled over because you are laying down an oil slick while your car makes an aweful racket and smokes like crazy, you put a dense (preferably fireproof) material in your exhaust that doesn't completely seal the exhaust (like the banana did in Beverly Hills Cop). Then you hope that the rag doesn't catch fire from the molten oil and unburied fuel that is being expelled because you are down a cylinder.
Anyway, my dad told me to do the exact same thing when I was around 18 years old, and I am about a year older than Maura. I can also attest to the fact that it worked until I could save up enough bread to rebuild my motor.
Hope this helps!
I have known of Maura's case for a long time. I have not studied every detail by far, but have read many accounts and perspectives of what happened that night, and also who Maura "was." Here are my thoughts: The entire situation sounds like Maura was grappling with untreated, undiagnosed (or perhaps diagnosed, but refusal of treatment was likely ) bipolar. Facts suggest she was experiencing a mixed state, perhaps rapidly cycling and could have consequently been on the verge of a psychotic break. If this is the case, she would have had a complete lack of judgment, limited awareness of her surroundings, and a likelihood of high risk behavior. If her state was so manic, she could have lacked full awareness of who or where she was. Her driving would likely have been horrible attributable to her state of mind, the alcohol, acute stress and who knows what else. All she knew to do was run. Drive. She wanted to escape...where and how she may not have cared. Like so many untreated bipolars, she was self medicating with substances, and recklessly drinking while driving. She would have been showing a bevy of behavior unlike her (lying,ditching school, cheating?) for some time. She may have been wrongly diagnosed at some point with anxiety which resembles mania and given inappropriate medication that augmented her mood disorder and helped along a mixed state or break. If she had been mixing meds with alcohol on top of a mood disorder and loaded with stress? Disaster. I am not sure if she had been treated at all for depression and given an SSRI, which would be another hot mess. Multiple stressors and demands, female, the right age, and high achiever-- trifecta for bp onset. She either didnt want to face particular truths, was ashamed for many actions that she nad been unable to stop, had no idea what she was doing, had a psychotic break, wanted to die...all or any of these and then met the wrong person and hence a terrible end. She also could have succumbed to the elements, OD'd, etc. I wrote this quickly, so there may be lots of typos. I am at work so writing 100 mph, but hopefully I got something across. I have always remembered Maura because I felt all along like I "got" her and exactly how she was feeling...my portrait is also above. I was the same age and under many similar circumstances. If any of this resembles the truth I wouldn't be surprised. My skin crawls with knowingness of how she felt in the car that night -- completely out of control, terrified, rapid cycling, in danger and blurry from some kind of substance. I did very similar things, but was fortunate to survive. There but by the grace of God go I.
I enjoyed reading your post. Well thought out and it comes from the heart. thanks for sharing and I wish you well for the future.
+Mick Breen I truly appreciate that. I hoped my post could shed some light on a possibilty re: Maura, but also give information about an often misunderstood mental illness. Mental health education is needed everywhere, including YT. For what it's worth, I do believe Maura had been in crisis for some time.
That's an interesting read, I've just started analysing, seeing the laughing man got me into it, he had a little nonserious smile at the end.
@@axlsbutt4166 ya you went deep there. I definitely agree on maura but after reading your post my outlook changed a lil with the likelyness of her running away and starting a new life a possibility. I'd still lean more towards abduction and murder and maybe suicide than the new life theory but you never know. #wheresMaura
Border line also has the same effects but is more quick moving between manic and depressive states and medications don't seem to help.. people with this also self medicate. I only bring this up because I have had a very personal relationship with someone with this. He was misdiagnosed with bipolar for years... he kept saying the medications didn't work and he would have a melt down and then be fine all within hours of this.
Blocking the tailpipe makes the engine run more "rich". Helps it run when its not getting enough fuel due to solidification of old gas.
It seems very plausible with Maura's reckless drinking and odd behavior that Maura could have been experiencing a manic episode common for bipolar disorder which the symptoms of generally show up in early to mid twenties. I recently read an article of a Vermont girl who was an addict and was kidnapped into a human trafficking ring. If she accepted a ride from the wrong person and was trapped into a human trafficking situation it could be very hard or impossible to find her. I wonder if this possibility was explored in depth.
You guys should do a podcast on Brian Lawson. The man who disappeared in Texas after running out of gas on a freeway.
Was he never found?
+Faylen Falcone *Brandon Lawson
I know. I was asking if he was ever found. It's a very strange case.
+Faylen Falcone sorry I didn't mean to reply to you! I know right these disappearances are scary and unusual. Definitely make you think.
Paige N Yes. Totally vanished. I hadn't seen his name in awhile and never knew if he or anything was ever found. I remember a strange story involving his brother and his girlfriend the night he went missing.
My first thought and I think the most logical explanation WOULD be that she crashed, was drunk, refused help to buy time to sober up, knowing police were coming she abandoned the car and decided to walk away, again being under the influence and involved in an accident mkments before she's a little out of it or maybe decides to head into the woods for more cover. She may have assumed that more cars would be out looking for her since the car was there with no driver. As she heads into the woods she gets lost, cold, and dies from the elements. However, I say this WOULD be the most logical explanation until you include her actions leading up. Emailing work and school to excuse herself for a week looks sketchy but then you could say she was planning a trip for a week. Although she was planning a trip with less than $300 for a week. Thats hard to accomplish although I guess somehow maybe possible. BUT then theirs her packing up her dorm room. It doesn't add up when everything leading up is evaluated. All these scenarios alone can come to different conclusions but together they lead nowhere.
Everything leading up to the accident seems premeditated. And that's where I'm lost. Did she plan the accident? The pictures that I saw of the vehicle with the smashed windshield looks suspicious to me. The Crack in the windshield seems to be in a odd location where her head wouldn't have been able to cause it again butch never said her head was bleeding or injured. So something else had to hit it and again it's just a strange location for something inside the car to have done it and no sign of animal being hit or leaving blood. Could she have hit it to make it look like she hit something. Seems unlikely since they say Butch was at the accident scene without minutes of the accident. Not sure how they know that,, maybe the lady at the other house heard when the accident happened and saw when butch got there. Sheesh I don't know. Seems like it's hard to find the exact timeliness of events after the crash. There's also just so many things that point one direction so many that point another and again putting them together leads no where.
"35 degrees... it's freezing."
lolol try being here today. it's 1° out!
This story is sad. I look forward to hearing more of the podcast and finding out more info.
IF she decided to just "vanish" from the public eye, then that's on her, she can do that. However, what kind of a person(assuming she did this on her own doing) would put people who knew and loved her, and even strangers, through this pain of not knowing what happened to her. Starting over is one thing, but this goes way beyond that. If that is the actual situation, she would have to have something serious to hide, or not want exposed.
My ex-husband used to be really bad about relocating, moving from place to place very often. It didn't matter how that impacted his family at all. What i realised was, he was trying to stay one step ahead of others finding out who he really was. He never wanted to be recognized for his real self, but if he stuck around long enough, you'd see who he really was. That was some serious psychopathic behavior, and this story reminds me of that type of behavior.
I think she took off and died accidentally. I think her remains are in the forested area somewhere near the accident. When I say near I mean the remains could be miles away. She was a runner and in pretty good shape so her remains could be 20+ miles away from the accident. Especially if animals got to her body. Plus don't forget running generates body heat. Are there any rivers in the area? They should be searched if they haven't been already. If she did indeed die somewhere in the nearby forests, it wouldn't take long for animals to get to her. That would make it pretty much impossible to find her remains. I hope this case is solved someday.
Good work on the first episode. Sound quality and production was great. Very informative too. Cant wait for you guys to get into the details because that is when this case becomes really interesting. A schedule for upcoming episodes would be nice but coming soon will have to do I guess. ;) If you have any guests on it would be really interesting to hear from someone directly involved in the case as this is a real rarity.
And the Journey down this missing case road has begun.
The thing that always gets me is looking at google maps and staring at the spot her car was found. I run a hundred scenarios in my head on her crashing and getting out and then it blows my mind that she disappeared. Some of these cases Brandon Lawson, Brandon Swanson, Maura Murray, Brianna Maitland, Zebb Quinn, the case of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon (possibly spelt wrong). All these cases have absolutely bizarre circumstances. Also thinking about her story, it seems so strange that she would book rooms at 2 different places. Normally if you book at one spot you would think she could make it to her destination from there. She was 3 years into nursing school and there would be almost no way that she would out up with that for that long just to quit and disappear afterward. Also all these cases there is nearly ZERO physical evidence. In this day in age with DNA testing and everything we have the capability to do it is beyond strange that we haven't seen anything at all. Normally if someone goes missing on their own accord they leave behind clues months leading up to the disappearance. The weird part about this case is this. Let's just pretend she was in her hometown. People know each other and can usually see odd people who stick out by not being from the area. So if something happened to her in her hometown it would be a case of who knew her and wanted to kill her. UNLESS she was being closely followed and was so unlucky to crash that the person following had the perfect opportunity to take her, I find it so weird that she was way way far away from home. Who would know exactly where she was and that she would crash there unless someone followed her. If nobody followed her how would someone with intent to kill be around exactly at that time she crashes and was able to leave no trace and completely disappear? Something is extremely off here either she was stalked and tried to get away for a while , with her telling that truck driver she already called AAA in a day in age with flip phones and terrible coverage for some strange reason maybe she was trying to disappear but in this day in age no way could she live under the radar with all the background checks and need for Id to do anything unless she is living under a rock. Third theory would be the truck driver or a truck driver spotted her and had a quick opportunity to make their move or something. I just cannot get over the strange facts. The phone call, the rag, the crash site all of it blows my mind so far away I just cannot understand what the f happened. Only other guess would be she went walking and had the intention of suicide the way time and planned on doing so at the place she rented rooms maybe was deciding on which one. When she crashed she realized she would have to probably call home and they would know where she was so she lied to the truck driver and as soon as he was out of sight she disappeared and went and killed herself somewhere in the wilderness. I just don't know what to think.
Edit: Also another couple things. First Butch Atwood is suspicious as hell. If he didn't pull up and take her then the only other scenario I imagine would be her getting in a car with someone else but she told the trucker she was fine and called the AAA so it wouldn't make much sense to then get in a car right after saying that. So much speculation and circumstantial evidence that it will probably never be solved.
I am quite new to listening to the podcast but I am really enjoying it. I have known about the Maura Murray case for a few years since the Oxygen documentary was released. The same situation with the Phoenix Coldon case which I see is covered more recently. I have noted a few comments down for the episodes I have listened to and sorry, if a lot of these have been covered. Great job Tim and Lance, thank you for a great podcast.
an old trick is to clog the tail pipe and it helps with certain starting problems.
Some helpful info on cell phone service. I do not work for a cell phone company however, for about the Last 7 to 8 years have had issues with service I never had before (lived same place for 12 years) a cell engineer explained to me why that happened. About 8 years ago all cell phone companies went digital where before that they were all analog. He explained that analog can go over and around stuff such as mountains etc but could only reach a short distance. Digital can not and signals are straight but can reach further. so Maura may have had ok service to call out back then and should no way be compared to phone signal of today. Just a thought.
It sounds and seems like she was planning on committing suicide. I'm not sure what ended up happening, but I think getting picked up by some random person within a time span of a few minutes, with multiple witnesses observing the scene during that time, is so unlikely that it probably didn't happen. I think she drank herself to sleep in the woods and died from hypothermia. Maybe she went to an area where she didn't think people would find her. I've followed the case closely and I'm pretty sure I've heard every piece of evidence that's publicly available. I think Fred's strange behavior may have stemmed from guilt, he might feel responsible for her possible suicide, or even the trip itself.
I have been following this case since it started.
Sounds like she wanted to disappear.
Let's hope that's what happened.
not an easy thing to do without being found. especially right after a crash when you have no idea where you are and teh whole world is looking for you. also, she never used her phone or debit card again??
@@Scorch428
you have to do that in order to disappear - stop using your phone and accessing your bank account.
Excellent introduction and a highly interesting conspiratorial case example.
The fact that people in the comments are condoning stuffing rags into the exhausts of a car blows my mind. I've been wrenching on cars for 25 years and I've never heard of doing that unless you want your engine to choke up and die. I called a friend who runs his own shop and has been a certified mechanic for 30 years and he said the same thing- you block your exhaust, your car doesn't run. Period.
It's clear she put it in after the accident. Why? I don't know. Maybe she was scared and wasn't thinking straight.
Hi guys. I just wanted to make some random comments about all the episodes that I've seen so far.
I grew up in the town next to Hanson (where Maura was from), in Rockland, MA, so I remember her disappearance being all over the news back in 2004. I also found out it interesting because she was a girl that was my age.
Back in 2004, I was 21 and working for Starbucks. And I keep putting the year 2004 in perspective. I had a cell phone at the time (that I barely used). Everyone had them but were mainly using them for emergencies. Texting was in existence but it was very limited. People were mainly only texting each other to ask simple questions, such as, "Are you running late?" or "What time do you think you'll get here?" People weren't having full-blown conversations via texting either. Google maps didn't exist. Finding directions still meant stopping at gas stations, convenience stores, etc. Facebook existed but only if you were a college student and had a college email address. So although, 2004 was only a little over 10 years ago, technology-wise it feels almost like 20 years ago.
Also, in 2004, was the kind of birth of online dating. It was very taboo to be participating with online dating. A lot of people didn't have pictures on their profiles. You had to actually "scan" your photos to get them onto your computer. The first girl I met from the internet didn't even have a picture. I had to take her word for what she looked like. Since there weren't a lot of people doing online dating, it was a lot easier to find a "connection" with someone than there is now. I remember talking to a lot of girls at the time that were traveling to other states such as New York, Connecticut, etc to go on dates. Unlike now, where there are probably at least 20 women looking to date even in the smallest of towns.
The reason I'm saying all this is...because I think Maura was going to meet someone from the internet the night she disappeared.
I think the reason that Maura was so "out of it" the days before her disappearance is because she was having a sort of "moral crisis" about potentially leaving her boyfriend and meeting a stranger from the internet of whom she may have had a stronger connection with, or he could have been an older male with money, or a nice house, or anything that would appeal to most normal 21 year old women.
I don't believe that Maura left to start a new life. Taking out $360 would not get you far, even in 2004. Most decent hotels at that time still cost around $100 a night. And the fact of the certain types of alcohol that she purchased. She wasn't buying the type of alcohol where it says, "I'm gonna get a hotel room for a few days and get wasted." Most of that would be beer, wine, vodka with a mixer, or whiskey with a liter of Coca-Cola. She bought "party" drinks. Drinks that a college girl would be comfortable drinking and would probably know by attending parties what her tolerance would be if she consumed those drinks. And if you were going to go to a hotel room for a few days and get wasted, you wouldn't buy all your alcohol in one night. Unless you made reservations at a hotel, you wouldn't know if your hotel room came with a fridge, had an ice machine in the building, etc.
Here are some of my opinions that differ from the opinions shared on this podcast:
...About Maura returning her friend's lab coat.... She may not have been just planning her suicide and tying up loose ends, it may just show that although she was extremely overwhelmed by her life at the moment, that she was still thinking of other people, and wasn't completely selfish at the moment.
...About "Stefanos" at the party.... We don't know if that party every existed. If it did exist, possibly the reason that no one from the party ever came forward, was that there could have been hard drugs at the party. If there were more than drinking and weed, and such as something like cocaine was happening at the party, I could understand why college students wouldn't want that part of the party coming to light. Also, "Stefanos" could have been a guy she met at the party that encouraged Maura to travel to meet this "online mystery man." She could have explained her "moral crisis" during the party and he could have encouraged her not to officially break it off with her boyfriend, and go and meet this man who possibly lived in upstate New Hampshire or Vermont. The reason he may have never came forward is guilt. If he encouraged her to do this and something horrible ended up happening to her, I could understand not coming forward.
...About the man that picked Maura up....He may not have been the man that made Maura disappear. He could have just been a good Samaritan that saw a damsel in distress and gave her a ride. He could have just dropped her off where she wanted to go, or could have dropped her off somewhere and then her "online" friend picked her up from there. If he was merely a good Samaritan that just gave her a ride, the reason he never came forward is that he was not a local man. He could have just been traveling and never thought twice about looking up the car accident on the news. I know lots of people that don't watch the local news or read the paper, let alone know what's going on in the world. I could understand blissful ignorance.
...About her "online" friend...If he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance, he may have never come forward to say that he was expecting Maura because he could have been married, been lying about who he was, etc.
Those are just some of my thoughts. I find this story thought-provoking and fascinating. I really enjoyed your podcast guys. Keep up the good work. ~Will
+Will Doherty I started following this podcast in mid September. It's truly one of the most thought-provoking mysteries from the last 11 years. You make some interesting observations & hypotheticals.
With such limited evidence, Maura's disappearance always comes down to 'wrong place, wrong time' for me. A crime of opportunity. I have a perfectly smart friend who jumped into the car of a stranger to get away from an aggressive pursuer. She'd just finished a late shift at a restaurant and was waiting to catch a bus when some guy started harassing her on the sidewalk. This other guy pulls up in a red porsche and offers her a ride. She sized him up, figured he was the lesser of two evils and got into his car. Luckily he was a good samaritan who took her straight home.
Bad judgement (or bad options) can happen in a split second and you're at the mercy of a stranger.
I've always suspected Israel Keyes may have abducted Maura, but his modus operandi doesn't quite fit. He was highly organized and left little to chance.
Everything you said is speculation at best. Lol!
; )
The strongest theory for sure is that Maura died from exposure. There are a couple of flaws in that theory though. Maura's jeans, jacket, black backpack, shoes, liquor bottles...skeletal remains...were never found. Most people think the bloodhounds would have found something.
This theory is improbable as the police would have been able to follow her computer trail, even in 2004, and would have discovered ant communication. they know all the calls and internet searches she made. I doubt she could hide all the online dating info and communication with a rendezvous.
I didn't read all of that I stopped when you mentioned you think she met someone online. What evidence has been presented to assume she was doing any online dating? Also, she had been in other relationship with other men and it didn't seem to put her in a moral crisis. Also, she's left one school because of things she's done, she's been drinking and partying, and getting into car accidents I doubt the "stigma" of online dating or the "backlash" she could receive from it was the least of her worries.
No she had not “unpacked” yet! School had only resumed few weeks prior.. So that’s incorrect she did not pack and then leave..
Hey. Just want to say to anyone starting this podcast who listens and thinks it sucks, it does actually get way better in later episodes -- fewer opinions, more facts, interesting guests. If you know anything about the case, skip around. Especially recommend the episodes with interviews. You won't always agree with what's said, but it's fascinating to hear the points of view of different people who have immersed themselves in the case. They also manage to snag some interviews with some of the fringe players in the story that you may have read about, and it's very, very interesting to see what they say for themselves, as opposed to what someone says they said. Good stuff I don't think you'll hear anywhere else.
This is the first i have heard of her. After watching this one video, my initial belief is she ran off into the woods and something bad happened to her-she accidentally died in some form or another. She had wrecked her fathers car in the days before and then wrecked her car, in both cases possibly drinking. She probably was so frightened and upset she ran off into the woods thinking she would work her way back home or somewhere safe to sober up first. In the woods at night, in the cold and possibly being drunk is not a good combination. Possibly injured herself, got lost and died of hypothermia. Even though the woods were searched it is not uncommon for a missing persons body never to be found for many years later.
The only thing that gets to me is the rag in the tailpipe thing. I have never heard of anyone thinking that would help a car. I have had cars with the exhaust get clogged up due to mechanical problems and it would barely go over 20mph-it literally felt like the car was being choked out. Not to mention the fact of all the carbon monoxide flowing up into the cars passenger area.
One more thing I would like to add.
The rag in the muffler pipe is a huge red flag. A muffler gets up to approx 500-600 degrees Fahrenheit once it reaches operating temps. If that rag had been there for any amount of time it would've burned up (if it was even porous/positioned to allow exhaust flow to be emitted allowing the car to run in the first place.) Putting a rag in the muffler pipe serves ZERO purpose except to restrict exhaust flow and stall the engine. If she did have a bad headgasket as claimed by Fred the car would've never made it that far. It would've burned through the coolant and overheated the engine destroying it. A lot of what Fred says makes zero sense. This story has way too many red flags.
And her stuffing it there as a suicide attempt can be ruled out as well. First the car wouldn't run with a restricted exhaust. Second the fumes from the exhaust have no way to penetrate the cabin unless there were holes in the floor board of the car. But even in that case the fumes would be way too diluted to have an effect. With a car that's only 8 years old at the time, I don't see that being the case. And Saturns are known to stand up to rust pretty well as many of their panels are made from a non-metallic material.
Why doesn't someone (perhaps the police??) bring a battery to the location of the car and run a simple compression test? It would literally take 5 minutes and requires no technical expertise and the engine doesn't have to even be operable as it is only turned over. You can find step by step instructions on how to do it on youtube but even still I suggest having the procedure done by a mechanic under the supervision of investigators as the mechanic could also do a leak down test on the engine and there are procedures required for a car that's been sitting for this amount of time. This would shed light on the condition of the engine. Clock is ticking though because eventually the oil rings will dry up but even at this date if done properly you should get a pretty good idea of the condition of the engine when she was driving it and see if Fred's story about the headgasket, low compression, checks out. To me the rag makes zero sense and I know cars and engines. Even if it was burning oil or coolant stuffing a fricken rag in the muffler is going to do diddly squat except fuck the engine up more making it backfire, stall out, and be inoperable. Only person who wouldn't want a compression test done on the engine would be someone with something to hide.
I think the rag could've been some sort of "checkpoint" marker between her and Fred.
edit: wow found this post from mauramurray.blogspot.ca/2011/08/lavoie-says-fred-murray-explained.html
"Yes, James, Marybeth Conway was asked to do a piece for her award
winning article and she said he (Fred) would NOT return his calls. He
wanted the car smashed, crushed. Something in there we should known't
about? He didn't want to pay the towing fee........I thought he wanted
to look inside. Was he given time to do that and found nothing. Now
they're holding it as evidence?"
WOW Fred knows something. He told her to put a rag there to limit the smoke? LOL that's a crock of shit. Comon Fred don't try to make fools out of us, as it has a reverse effect and you're the one who ends up looking foolish and with something to hide. Were playing chess here not checkers and I know your moves and you're about two moves away from being checkmated.
I understand the car is under police custody. Someone should forward the request to the police to do a compression/leak down test on the engine and figure out it's condition. This would open up avenues of investigation. If Fred is full of shit then we know HE KNOWS what happened that night.
H Majhail he was no where near her..how could he know....
They sound so much more different now in 2022! Lol 😆 🤣 😂
Kinda stumbling over each other's words! So Serious back then!!
Re: Maura Murray-- Why are you bashing her dad and his advice to his daughter? Puttin a rag in the tailpipe is a "yard mechanic" band aid.
Leave her dad alone, he has been through enough.
I'm listening in Nov. of 2019. I've watched multiple RUclipsrs cover this and read the book 'True Crime Addict', but I haven't listened to your coverage of the case. This has been recommended several times by RUclipsrs, so I added it to my list of things to check out. I have listened to a couple Crawlspace episodes, and they were good. I'm excited about this!
Jesus, you guys just go on and on and on about the same thing 5/6 times, with this guy, umming and oohing, and unable to string a sentence looking for words, then explain certain obvious things million times, and articulation just shows so much lack of confidence that you have to try to convince the listener that you are making some sense and speak as if what you just said is very important!!! It has been an extremely frustrating experience...
you guys should do a series on Kyron Horman @MissingMauraMurray
His step mother killed him.
Mauras living her best life in Quebec Canada! No need to worry she's been seen several times over the years . My friend was one of them who saw her. It was her she swears and knows this case as we all do . She's married happily with kids . Leave her alone !! She dosent want to be found clearly
Lolol ya ok
🤦♀️
why would she flee the car if the car is (presumably) her or her parent's name? that wouldn't save her from anything
Drunk drivers have been known to flee the accident to sober up and then return to the scene later with a story explaining the accident that doesn't include them being drunk.
I know I'm late to the "party" but I just found the podcast. Maybe someone else already said this so please forgive me if I'm commenting on something already talked about or a minor detail. But at least as it was explained to me from someone who has way more knowledge of the mechanics of cars then me stuffing a rag in a tailpipe and then driving the car around would be the same as putting a bag over your head and running around. The car will eventually run out of air and stall out just the way you'd run out of air and pass out. There is no good reason to ever put a rag in a tailpipe as a way to fix something but an excellent way to cause a problem, unless her objective was to kill herself.
My personal opinion is that of Norwegian psychic Michael Winger. I think she wandered off to the nearby River to sober up & fell asleep. When she woke up, she was in Moderate to Severe Hypothermia & not thinking clearly. She got into the river & died of exposure. Remember, the high temp that day was 32 degrees, but the low that night was -7 degrees. She was not well-covered & could easily have died of Hypothermia. No matter how physically fit a person is, it's tough to not get Hypothermia when it's -7 degrees & you're not dressed for it. I think it was just a tragedy. I pray she is found soon.
*Shits on internet detectives
30 minutes later: Goes into long speculatory tangent about the rag in the tailpipe.
It’s literally the only piece of evidence in this case that actually has a reasonable explaination and you’re making it sound unreasonable. The rag wasn’t meant to prevent the car from breaking down, it was meant to block exhaust smoke to avoid detection from police because she was just in a drinking and driving accident. I don’t know why people can’t just draw the simple conclusion that she probably tried to hide in the woods from police and ended up dying of hypothermia at an unknown location nearby
exactly
but the armchair defectives will post false information and pass it on as fact.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY DISTURBING, SAD CASE, THE POLICE REALLY FUCKED THIS INVESTIGATION UP, FRED MY FAMILY LOVES YOU, AND IS PRAYING FOR YOU, HOPEFULLY SHE JUST GOT AMNESIA FROM THE WRECK AND IS OK JUST HAS TO BE FOUND THAT'S WHAT MY FAMILY STRONGLY BELIEVES HAPPENED. WE TOTALLY BELIEVE SHE IS ALIVE TOTALLY BELIEVE THAT
She’s here in Portland Oregon. Street person, addicted to what I assume was heroin. Saw her quite regularly as I went through some street living times myself. I haven’t stayed down there since, 2010? Maybe 2011. You have an email? I’ll send a pic I have of us together from winter of 2009
If that's true, how do you know it's her?
Did the person you’re talking about say she was Maura?
Troll
This case has fascinated me from day one! I’ve never understood how the friends can’t remember Anything about the party I cannot understand where all the alcohol went after she crashed I cannot understand why butch’s house and bus weren’t searched ASAP I cannot understand why the stories all changed by the neighbors somewhat anyway it’s just so much butch couldn’t identify her in the first picture they showed him I could go on n on ( y’all were great on the oxygen series
I think she ran on foot obviously not wanting to get in trouble with a Second car crash involving alcohol in 3 days she’s in the woods somewhere dead
This is what I always come back to as well. I think she was going up there to at least think about suicide in the first place and when this happened it was the final straw and she took her alcohol, maybe some sleeping pills, went deep in the woods and either committed suicide or died from exposure. Before anyone comments “they would have found her”
NOT. NECESSARILY. According to plenty of other stories of other people who went missing in heavily wooded areas.
tollcross I don’t think you’re allowed to criticize someone else’s grammar when your own sucks.
Just a thought on the windshield...Im wondering if perhaps the box of wine flew into the windshield? Wasn't the winebox damaged or leaking? So perhaps it hit the windshield and that would explain also the red stains they found.
Air bags can break windshields.
I'm new to this podcast today... I have been to upper state NY in the woods but what is the wild animal population like up that way in NH? If we are talking about poor poor cell phone coverage & this is deep in the woods-- is there any possibility if she did go into the woods to "run away" that something could have gotten to her? Were the woods ever deeply searched? Are there wild dogs?
Rag in the tailpipe? Really DAD? REALLY?!
There are all kinds of animals in New England.
Wolves, bears and coyotes for sure.
She either got picked up and taken away and god knows what happened to her or she got killed by wild animals.
I am just listening to the series of podcasts 2018. My thoughts on Ep. 1 was there was a lot of speculation about this case. The biggest thing that jumps out to me is that when someone sees an accident they are suppose to stop at the scene. Bus driver's have radio's in their bus to call for help. Leaving a young girl (even if she said she was fine) was not cool. I have a problem with Butch having different answers for a simple situation. Its strange that witnesses stated they saw her but then she was gone in very few minutes. It would also be kind of tough to walk into the woods when there was a snow bank and drifting snow.
One other thing, Kleptomania, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bulimia nervosa and clinical depression could have been all affecting Maura at the time of her disappearance. Personality disorders are hard to diagnose completely. Have to weigh in the alcohol use with possible disorders. Two car accidents happening very close together and possibly hitting her head the night she crashed and disappeared.
Regarding the crack in the windshield. If there was “red liquid” (let’s assume that’s wine) on the driver’s side and roof of the car, it’s possible that the Diet Coke bottle filled with wine flew out of her hand during the accident and hit the windshield (and wine came out, spilling onto the driver’s side door, the roof, and probably Maura). Since the bus driver said he couldn’t see her bleeding, it’s unlikely that that was her head. That could also explain why she was shivering (aside from the shock), she was probably soaked in 30 degree weather.
I'm from Amherst, so it's just so mesmerizing that I know all of these locations. Both of my parents went to UMass, we sell produce to them, and go to some meetings so I definitely know my way around there. I actually never heard of the case till recently, I mean, it's definitely not a conventional conversation starter, but you'd expect it to slip at least once. People love to say nothing bad happens here, and maybe they're right. Most issues around here happen in Springfield, Holyoke, etc which can get pretty rigid, so I can only imagine where she ended up.
San Diego is not tropical, kids. It is subtropical arid.
The rag in the tail pipe thing is the weirdest. To me, a rag in the tail pipe indicates trying to commit suicide. Especially after all the suicidal indicators otherwise.
I "discovered" this sad case today, and I read a lot of comments about his dad like he is some kind of liar. Why do they mention her dad like this ?
Because people are douchebags.
So it's likely that someone out there reading this knows exactly where her remains are. Why not at least come up with a creative way to trade that information for the reward money and give her family and friends a measure of solace?
Cuz if someone tried that they would probably be arrested. If i went to the police and said “hey give me money and ill tell you where she is or where her remains are” that probably wouldn’t go over so well. Or they wouldn’t believe me and think im some crazy guy who wants attention
I am not a mechanic I don't know anything about exhaust systems of cars but isn't putting a rag in the tailpipe of a car dangerous?
Emily Walker Well not in the you will get hurt kind of way (i think) but there is no benefit to it and it will damage your car from what I can find online. But Fred is strange, you will probably notice this more as the show goes on. ;)
whyman when does the documentary come out?
Emily Walker We're hoping the first half of 2016
That's exactly what I was thinking! Doesn't that cause carbon monoxide to enter the car?
if you completely block it the car just won't start, or it will soon die out.
The clue is in what she said... there's a death in the family. That's not normal. Then she disappears.
I also believe there was a book in the car titled: "Not Without Peril" (if i'm remembering correctly)... which means not without "danger".
Reedit is the worst place for misinformation.
The rag "partially" covering the exhaust may have helped with a starting problem.
It isn't normal to tell people there is a death in the family when there isn't one.
Yeah that always made me think she did this on purpose, by this I mean run away, I feel like she lied a lot her last weeks she was seen to her friends and family so no one would question her motives.
A rag (I used to hear about steel wool pads also being used, back in the day) is used to quiet a muffler! Cars used to pass inspections, or not, before they had computers to hook up to cars. A really loud muffler would cause you to fail inspection. Some people, who couldn't afford a new muffler at the time, would stuff rags in the tailpipe. Also, I'm sure it's the same now, the police would pull you over if the muffler was too loud. I don't know why her father would have ever told the cops he told her to put it in there to help the car to run better and to keep it from sputtering. There must be a miscommunication somewhere. Surely, he wasn't that stupid! That wouldn't have helped at all.
I really enjoyed listening to this and will continue to do so, but wanted to point you in the direction of a discussion on reddit, in case you want some feedback or want to hop into the discussion: www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3du8f7/a_new_serialstyle_podcast_delves_into_the/
Best of luck, and looking forward to the next episode (about to start the second one!!!)
SassyTabby Thanks Sassy. We do actually mention that link at the end of episode two as well. We definitely want to keep this discussion going. We want to hear all theories and will eventually cover listener theories on the show. Thanks for the support!
Missing Maura Murray hey guys, been interested in this case for years. maura was the same age as me! thought this was interesting...
I live with a mechanic. there is NO reason to put ANYTHING in the tailpipe of a car, other than to commit suicide by hooking a pipe into the cab to fill up with carbon monoxide. obstructing the tailpipe would make the car run worse, if at all. I figured so but asked my friend just in case. this is not even an old remedy, it's very strange. the only other reason the would be a rag in there would be an emergency rag for when your car breaks down.
O
THANK YOU !!!!! Finally someone who knows what they are talking about! Putting anything in the tailpipe will do NOTHING to start a vehicle,
Just think about it, your very first episode outta how many youve done, and you start out by talking about how steered this case is by certain entities. On your very first episode!
Your first reaction episode to this case is like a first instinct. Yours was theres alot of steering going on.
And there is.
Dont become apart of that wheel if you want to know the truth
Sooo... episode 2 is coming soon, right? Like, this weekish? Yes? :)
Leslie Green Episode two is airing tomorrow (thursday)
The rag in tailpipe is a load of BS. It doesnt stay in there. Period. Hard stop.
I wish I was able to do something about this case. I've been following the disappearance of maura for weeks now and hopefully she'll be found soon
Are the ATM and crash\crime scene photos available?
Police decline to release ATM footage to date
The ATM footage has been released by now.
How would the dad know their was a rag in the tailpipe if she put it there to conceal her attempt to clean up the alcohol. Also, why hide her attempt to clean up alcohol but not remove the alcohol itself. She could have just thrown the box of wine in the woods before walking off. The father said he told her to do it others have confirmed this is an old school backyard mechanic method of helping with the car. There doesn't seem to be any mystery surrounding this and I think the police just had so little to go on from the time of the accident on that they were really just trying to cover everything.
Is the documentary out??
Paige N oh god
End Crystal why "oh god"?
Where is episode 18?
I plan on driving to her crash site this summer. I just want to stand there and just see what I feel and if I could see anything. Chances are she is gone and never to be seen again. All these cases just have me staring at my phone looking at google maps thinking about what her last moments in that car was. All the way on the boarder of NH and with the directions of her travels she was clearly going to Vermont. This is just beyond creepy. Any kind of rough terrain nearby if anyone knows?
1:52 aaand.. ???
It's not uncommon for people to pour alcohol into a can of Coke to make it look like she's drinking coke. I hate to admit, but I've done the same thing, and I've been drinking while driving. I was recently in a bad car accident and had been drinking and I highly considered running away but my phone was about to die and I wouldn't have known where to go. But a dwi pretty much ruins your life. My license is suspended for a year, ankle monitor for 30 days not mention all the money my poor parents have had to pay for lawyers and a fine. So I could definitely itely see why Maura begged for someone to not call the police cuz she knew she would've gotten a dwi and open bottle. I have a feeling she got into Butch's bus and asked him to not say anything and maybe pleaded that she would've gotten a dwi and to not say anything to help her out. So I definitely think he's hiding something.
And then he immediately called police. I don't think so.
I just stumbled upon this and thought it was some kind of "ufo-abduction-story" especially by the apprehensive way of talking about the case.
Has it be absolutely confirmed she was really the driver? The statement from the bus driver was eerie and made me think maybe someone posing as her drove the car- meanwhile she's actually gone the opposite direction? 🤔🤓 If they have ruled this out then good. This is prob one of these cases of me thinking to deep.. 🙃
Even in Arkansas mid-thirties is pretty damn cold. Really enjoying this podcast thus far. My first one by the way and I really enjoy true crime stories.
Reminds me a few weeks ago in the middle of the night, some idiot in a stolen car crashed into a house at the end of my street. Thankfully hardly any damage was done to the house. The person took off on foot and the cops were out with scent dogs trying to track them down. Whoever it was got lucky cause I don't think the cops found em.
Eurghh, this is quite tedious. The main guy over-reaches at any given point, trying to reach for conspiracy or any kind of explanation he can grab at. The other guy is much more level-headed, and tries to deal with the facts that are known, rather than wild conjecture.
One thing is for sure, anyone who's had a family member go missing (especially an adult kid) and allows these discussions to go on without screaming out to defend themselves has something to hide. I felt really bad for Maura's dad when I watched him on an episode of "Disappeared". Now I want my empathy back! lol...I feel so cheated. If Maura wanted to start over again, why not go to police and tell them so that she can be left alone. Ahh, but then again if she did she'd be held accountable for things like credit cards? Isn't the who idea of going missing is to remain out of the spot light. This is more of an attention seeking behavior. If everything being said here is true, then like you said she really is a sociopath...
If u didn't want to be found the LAST thing you would ever do is contact police. Police would tell the family and the family would plead for her to return home. If she did run away, she obviously really wanted to start over. I've had thoughts of that, but I could never do that to my parents. But it seems like the police don't really help, they just !make things worse. I'm not a big fan of police officers, I think they ruin lives !ore than help.
@@jjchick95 exactly who in their right or even wrong mind says I'm going to go missing let me give the police a heads up and tell them not to tell my family and allow me to continue to be assumed missing and possibly dead. Blows my mind how people use no common sense when coming up with these scenarios
Unfortunately, to me it looks like a terrible accident. Being an avid runner is very consistent with a bulimia. Its been noted that her weight was 120 and she was 5'7", if she was actively bulimic prior to this happening, along with the drinking it would make her more susceptible to intoxication as well as hypothermia. I think she may have just started walking and at some point succumbed to the weather somewhere very close to the highway.
Why didn't they test for dna on the can to see if it belonged to someone other than Maura?
I believe she was picked up and is in the basement of the home that's been searched.
I doubt she was murdered.
Vegeta solo And yet in the programme she is portrayed as a girl with a few problems. But essentially fine and good.
Jeeze! She was only 21. The things that she was in trouble for were minor. Kids make mistakes. All American girls make mistakes. It doesn't make her a bad person. They are definitely not reasons to run away
Vegeta solo just because she drank does not mean that she was not a good person!
i am just beginning to look into this case. from what little i've read, and it hasn't been much, my skepticism kicked in. sounds like this young lady had a ton of issues and problems, and was running from reality. you have summed up these problems well. i love it when someone is so knowledgeable about a case. ty
That is a lot of trouble, not normal for most 21 yr olds.
Someone at the passender's side of the car?
This case is pretty interesting.
One thing I would like to add. The credit card fraud part makes me think for sure she started a new life and was able to obtain a new identity. I don't buy the part about her picking up a receipt from a trash can at all. CC numbers are truncated on a receipt there is no way for that to work, and you also require the CCV, expiry, billing address in some cases, etc. What I think is more likely is she was into the carding scene which was really in its heyday from the late 90's to mid 2000's until the secret service pretty much infiltrated and made everything go even more underground at which point it turned into a paranoid freak show. There were more than a few posts on those sites back then about people looking for advice on how to completely start over. These were sites easily accessible such as shadowcrew and carderplanet (google you will find info) during that time were you could EASILY buy a new identity from verified vendors. A nefarious person could acquire forged checks, bank logins, actual plastic credit cards, credit card numbers (meant for online), Identities, manuals on how to obtain a new identity, skimmers, and the list goes on. Add this to the $4000 (which is approximately what people used to charge for complete identities with a passport and everything) her dad pulled out and it's pretty clear to me what happened. How do I know about all this? I was around 18 and never got involved but had an older friend who was a small timer on those sites and I browsed them occasionally as I found the information/threads there fascinating.
And to add to this apparently in Canada it's not hard at all to obtain a new identity. I read a news article that an individual was found to have assumed a new identity practically their entire life but was only found out after they had passed away, don't recall but some discrepancies tipped authorities.
edit found it: www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/06/14/the-truth-about-mike.html
sound eerily similar too. ditched car, man in 20's disappears without a trace, etc.
Just throwing that out there. Something about her "mugshot" picture the look in her eyes I see something and I think this might of been it. Someone out there knows something, and they might not even be aware of it.
Good theory, if it's true she would have to understand the criminal scene, interesting.
@ around 31:30, I was once in a crash and the windshiled wasn't damaged, but my first reaction (stupid, I know, and I never act like that) was to punch it, I had been drinking and I didn't think it would break but it did and at the end people just assume dit had been my head but the position was way too high.
I’m wondering what she was running from and why? Then she’s drinking and driving and had she become suicidal in her own mind? From the description of the windshield it sounds as though she hit her head on the window shield which is the frontal lobe of the brain. Did she develop amnesia? She had to have been in a state of confusion no doubt! So she’s drinking and driving, upset obviously, has an accident, tells another driver that she’s called triple A. My feeling is she was abducted by another traveler who stopped to take advantage of her situation. Is she still alive and sold for sex trade? Or is she dead?
According to a bus driver, he was able to talk to a women (probably maura) who was sitting next to the broken car, he said that she wasn't harmed and he asked if she wanted any help she said that she already called for urgency but the bus driver claimed that there is no phone service on that area . Before this conversation a women claimed that she saw a man next to the car but the bus driver didn't . Few minutes later a women who was passing by on her car said that she saw a police car next to Maura's car but there was no one in either one of the cars I guess, but the police arrived 9 minutes later. So who are supposed to believe the car driver?the police?
This case is really complicated and strange but it's also quite interesting I wish I was there 15 years ago
Bit late with this, I know. But people can build up their problems in their minds to the point they feel unsurmountable. I think Maura's recent history could easily lead to such feelings. You're the track star, then you're stealing, you have DUIs... you're away from home and worried about your sister...maybe you had a car accident of some kind nobody knows about...
The A frame house is the biggest red flag / clue of the entire case imho
Man I grew up in a party college town with the highest DUI's rate In the country..lots of young people crashing into things drunk..i dont know how many times we saw or came across cars wrecked and the young drunk drivers panicked and just ran off hoping i guess to avoid a dui...as kids we would liberate these cars of anything left in them...booze,cd's,college text books(good money for resale) ect..we never broke into cars otherwise but for some reason i guess we felt more comfortable taking stuff in this situation..not sure why realy maybe because we figured the theft would be the least of their problems and they'd just be happy they got away without a dui..or maybe we knew they wouldnt be calling police..whatever reason everybody did it that otherwise wernt bad kids and didnt normally steal..I think more than anything we were trying to find weed, alcohol, or cigarettes usualy..this brings me to my point, I think somebody may have liberated the alcohol and other items from her wrecked car and we are getting a skewed view of what realy was and wasnt with her
Yeah cause there was lots of pedestrians walking around on that dark back road in the winter and they just so happened to be there at the perfect time at 8 at night and they stole everything out of her car within 7 minutes before anyone even saw them. Yeah. 🙄
Man at this time "mind erasers" were a big college party drink and are made with those liquers along with Sprite or 7up..there sucked from the bottom up with a straw like a kind of shot...racing with these was incorporated Into different drinking games..however you do it they are never made for drinking alone or with one other person..100% a party shot for multiple people..with the amounts she bought I think she may have been getting "party favors" I think there was a party happening or about to happen somewhere..if this was the case why hasn't no one came forward saying she didnt show up?
where can you download this?
can you lift finger prints from a rag?
I was also wondering about that. Not fingerprints, but DNA/bodily fluids/fibers/etc. I also had a thought that people block their exhaust to kill themselves inside the car from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Can you guys post a full version of the song in the intro
Kevin Macleod “Mesmerize”. it’s a perfect intro/outro to the podcast.
@@webuser5085 Thanks man! I loved this piano song so I’m glad you knew the name!
I believe the bus driver took her. He was the last one to see her alive.
Right imagine if in reality she took his offer up and went to his house and butch and his wife raped and murdered maura. I wonder if his wife is still alive
He did not have time
i believe she is still alive there is also a man that staged his disappearance that was on the show disappearance and was found years later. I think she was drunk in both car accidents. anyone know what prescriptions she was on?
I'm being serious this maybe like the movie Fire In The Sky.
+Stephanie Wilson lmao Travis Walton WOW. Except she hasnt come back yet haha
Greeting from Costa rica
Greeting
Fingerprints on a rag?
A read in the tail pipe will actually help a car run better that has a bad exhaust just saying
A bad exhaust wouldn’t effect the way it ran but blocking the tail pipe a little will help a worn out low compression engine
lost me when called arm chair detective...
the Vermont n N. H. teens vanish very disterbing awareness for teens. Let's do it we need Cloey too thanks crawl space peace from LA
Does the chief smoke?
Wait there's one thing that confuses me why would a school bus driver be passing by at 7:00 PM
From memory I think he was driving home and he planned on parking the bus at his home overnight which was not uncommon for bus drivers to do. However you have a good point if school finishes around 3pm that would still be 4 hours later
Some schools have late busses for students in sports and clubs.
The rag in the tailpipe? Without knowing Mr. Murray or impinging upon his reputation, I think this is sinister advice. I say this because, once, someone put heavily packed dirt in both of the dual exhuast pipes of the Honda I drove. We called around to repair shops and mechanics to see whether this was malicious. Most were under the consensus that, as one of you mentioned, this was dangerous because, 'Where does the exhaust go?' Someone thought it might explode. I am aware that she had crashed his vehicle prior to her own car crash. Perhaps, he was bitter. -- Pure speculation
Jennifer Sussex he was no where near the accident though.....
A lot of these women need to chill with the filters if u ever go missing no one will know what u really look like
Mr. 112 Dirtbag?
As far as I understand he’s been ruled out although he’s definitely a creeper he (as per NH State police) has nothing to do with it. Also look up Brianna Maitland who disappeared on March 19, 2004 in Vermont on that same route 112. She has not been seen or heard from since.
Maybe you go into this, in which case I'll delete my comment, but what is your relation to the family?
If you think about the chief has motor violations and accidents similar to this....kind of crazy he lost his job over similsr circumstances...except maybe before there was a cover up?
If I did I would
You can't believe everything you read on Internet.
Was this a bad edit? You say rag in the tail pipe so many times, we get it.