This episode was definitely an improvement over the last (Renner) one. Harting comes across as very objective and that is always a plus for cases like this, where the evidence is so tantalizingly slim. Harting resisted the urge to fill in blank areas with the kind of speculation that far too often leads to the worst kind of theories in similar cases. OK, you've convinced me to stick around for the next episode.
A female perspective is needed when it comes to certain speculations. I get guys are typically matter of fact- and a lot of speculations come from a seemingly rigid male mindset. The motel room is another thing that I hear u guys going back forth on- but what came to my mind is that rather there needing to be a two bed room or why Fred didn't wake up- Maura could hv easily crashed on a chair in the room. Fred could hv been a hard sleeper or been one to wear ear plugs - like my husband. I still agree tho way too many bizarre coincidences and I'm really enjoying these podcasts. So great work and thank you!!
As someone who has suffered from depression, I can tell you that you cannot fake the level of depression talked about in the evening with Maura's supervisor. It is something you see in someone's eyes when they stare straight through you. Since Karen herself had felt those emotions, she is highly capable of recognizing this exact emotional state. She most likely has looked that way her self throughout her struggles.
I think you're giving Karen too much credit to spot depression. On one hand we're saying something happened that night that was so traumatic that she went into this state almost out of no where but on the other hand we're saying she's depressed and that Karen is able to spot that. I think depression is something that is built up not brought on that quickly. I realize she could have been depressed for a while but that would change this theory around then.
Another great episode! Thank you so much for this podcast. Like Clint, I instantly became obsessed with Maura's case when I first saw the Disappeared episode a couple years ago. I don't really have a scenario I particularly favor over others, but since the McStay Family case ended so sadly (I was absolutely convinced they were alive!), I've prepared myself to think Maura, out of either desperation, drunkenness or a manic episode, ran into the woods after the accident, died of exposure and that one day her remains will be found. With that being said, I do think it's possible that she could be alive and regardless, Fred, Billy and Maura's friends know more about her inner demons than they are letting on. So with that in mind, I wonder if at some point you could talk more in depth about the investigations and the, I believe, two formal searches that were done after she disappeared, along with the K9 search, the A-frame, the guy that gave Fred a knife (says Wikipedia anyway, I feel that doesn't come up a lot), etc. How many miles away from the accident and in what direction(s) did they search? Would it be worth looking again? And finally, has anyone looked hard through the Doe Network in and around New England and Canada (or hell, even many states away)? I can't help but think back to those two Disappeared episodes with Colleen Orsborn and Samantha Bonnell, whose remains were found and labeled as Jane Does due to misinformation or something stupid. Just a thought. I'm sure James Renner and many others have monitored remains as they are found in the area, but you never know. Excited for more episodes and the upcoming documentary! Thanks again!
+Nicholas Krancher Thank you! I've poked around The Doe Network myself, but not too much. I did check NH and the few there could not possibly be Maura based on dates. Also, most of the Jane Does are the women found in the barrels at Bear Brook State Park. Another creepy case!
+Lauren Williams Along with Lauren, Clint and many others, I also became interested in this case from watching the Disappeared episode. I would also like to hear more about what Lauren mentioned (K-9 search at the A-frame house and the supposed knife that Fred was given). I think it would be fascinating if Tom Shamshak, the former Boston area police chief, could be interviewed on an upcoming podcast. From watching the 20/20 episode, he performed his own investigation on this case. He must have some very specific details/opinions and it would be very worthwhile to hear from someone who is a professional in the field. I have really enjoyed listening to these podcasts. I don't mind the time that is taken on the speculation, because that is really all there is after all of these years with very limited new information we can consider as fact. After thinking back to the first time I watched the Disappeared episode, I think I was so intrigued due to the fact that they made Maura out to be the perfect student, daughter, girlfriend and friend. It made the disappearance even more baffling, because many of the cases on the Disappeared series focused on individuals who clearly had drug-related problems and/or deliberately put themselves in dangerous or illegal situations. So, it was because of the "perfect girl" image that encouraged me to look on-line to then learn about the other information we did not learn from the Disappeared episode. If they had included all of the other information (credit card fraud, cheating on her boyfriend, heavy alcohol use, etc.), I don't know if I would have bothered to research this case after turning the TV off that night. So, in my case, the lack of negative information about Maura encouraged me to look further. All of us became interested in this case for many different reasons and these podcasts give us all a chance to hear what Tim and Lance have to say. Look at all of the comments/suggestions/questions that have been mentioned out of the 8 episodes so far. All it could take is the eye-witness account of 1 person to realize there is such a podcast and blow this case wide open. I am looking forward to listening to more.
+Lauren Williams My personal opinion about the knife (that was attempted to be turned in to police and later mailed to them after they refused to accept it in person) and the A-Frame House Blood sample taken from carpet and the panties found in a ditch --- is that these were items discovered moreso to try and gather up fresh interest in the case from the media, than they were actual legit ties to the case.I don't have full proof of that, however and I'm not saying family didn't actually come across these items in a legit manner (just maybe that they let their imaginations run wild a little bit with it)I do know (especially when it comes to the A-Frame house off of Valley Rd,. that this "Discovery" was made during a pre-arranged (family notifying media ahead of time) weekend in which family hired investigators were out looking for clues/new evidence.It to me smells of a publicity stunt to try and strum up renewed interest in the case.Not saying there is anything wrong with it, just how It comes across to me, both because of the actual investigators lack of interest in the items and also the notion that family did seem to like to involve the media in trying to keep pressure on police (which there is nothing wrong with that).Clint Harting
I also do know that when family coordinated this weekend search (I believe in October of 2006), they did use some very good search dogs around the location of where Maura wrecked. However, they were not allowed to search on private land around the area and their search only covered a five-mile radius
I've actually been following this case since maybe 9 months after she went missing. I'm so glad to see this podcast and the theories are very interesting.
+Pasic TP sadly no. I have developed theories based on other people's work. I have narrowed it down to 2 scenarios. 1, she's alive after escaping her previous life. 2, she went into the woods and died of the elements. I lean towards the first one.
@@CharleyCarey but what is she escaping. Everyone says she's escaping....sounds like she had it pretty good other. On the surface from what I've heard there really were no problems. She was asked to leave her old school, she did and got into umass, she stole a credit card and got 6 months probation no actual criminal record for it and only had about 3 month left on that. Not life ending or something to run from. She crashed her dad's car while most likely drunk and got away with it and her dad wasn't even that upset again why would anyone run from that? Yes if all of this happened and she was facing such terrible criminal charges maybe but she wasn't. She basically got away with all of this stuff with no criminal record and a little more than a year before graduating nursing school. Again, wtf is she running from?
I have to say that Clink Hartings theory on this makes the most sense to me. I may change my mind after hearing more of the podcast episodes since this was only #7. The suicide theory makes sense because of: 1. her items being packed up. 2. borrowed item returned when she didn't want to talk to anyone. 3. checking out places to go where she had good memories 4. the alcohol, Tylenol PM, & rag in exhaust pipe. 5. Why friends & family don't want to disclose all the information about her. 6. Why her family isn't looking for her anymore.
yeah I mean it's that is so so possible she hit that poor kid and so awful about it and was scared to death and thought her life is about to go completely down hill and derail I mean but I wouldn't think that it would alone make her suicidal but it would definitely explain why she skipped town and wanted to disappear and take a break or possibly change her life
I don't even know how i stumbled on this podcast but I've been listening non stop since last night. I'm from the Burlington VT area and live in southern NH now. When I go to visit family around Woodsville NH I drive on 112 where she disappeared. That drive at night has always creeped me out because it's so isolated. I've hiked near there and its really remote. It's hard to believe she could disappear on foot in that area. Especially if she was drunk.
Another odd discrepancy is the hazard light's on Maura's car. One of the witnesses that night Virginia Marrotte said "from our kitchen window we saw a car down the road with trouble lights flashing, and someone walking around the car". They then said that they observed another neighbor arrive on the scene with a school bus. The discrepancy is that Butch Atwood, the school bus driver had said that he advised Maura to put on her lights to avoid getting hit by any cars coming around the bend. Which is it? When were her lights put on? If Maura was trying to hide, would she put her hazards on? Also I thought Butch said that Maura was in the driver's side the whole time when he spoke to her and it was hard for her to get out because the driver side was against the snowbank. I know this is not new insight, but there are just too many discrepancies to this case and that is why it frustrates so many.
That seems like a minor detail that can be easily confused when trying to remember that kind of detail when you feel under pressure to do so could create a false memory.
This particular case has always seemed more like someone trying to run away from something, than an abduction situation. It's just been so much bs around this story, it's nice to actually listen to someone tell the actual facts of the case. It does make a lot more sense that the police would search more for a person who they believe has been abducted, than someone going into the woods to do harm to themselves. Great job guys!
Clint Harting is a breath of fresh air compared to James Renner. Though I can't help but notice you guys got so caught up on Renner's spin on Fred Murray and actually believe him to be involved in her disappearance that you are not looking at the situation objectively. Still, as long as Renner is not a guest, your show is addictive.
This was a great episode . Especially after the last one. He is not letting you guys go off on a tangent and has great information. He has put you right on a few things as well. You guys are a lot quieter .One issue you keep talking about the dad being suspicious. Asking other guests that as a first question . Maybe move on a bit .It was starting to get repetitive. But great episode guys.
Because from the sounds of it they believe Maura is still alive and the father has helped her. I don't get it why would he help her disappear. She was really in absolutely no trouble other than having to be on some kind of probation for 6 months and only having about 3 months left she didn't actually have anything to run from. So for her dad to help her, Why? So the rest of the family can just live with uncertainty about what happened but not him. No and if they do know too then who the hell is she running from. If that's the case she could have just moved away on her own without this drama.
Hi, I've only recently joined in listening to the numerous podcasts on Maura Murray. Everyone has an opinion on this, here's mine after much reflection. I do not believe Maura killed herself. I believe she really just wanted a break from the chaos of recent events in her young life. There is only one explanation that makes sense. She was driving to her destination, while drinking, she was intoxicated, too much so to remain on scene and deal with police in yet another incident of her bad decision making, and the result. So she gathered some of her belongings and walked east on route 112. The dogs tracked her twice to the junction just a short distance from accident scene. She is dead, having been the victim of accepting a ride from a predator who, by Mauras misfortune came upon her walking , stopped and offered her a ride. Needing to get away from the scene, she accepted, and became the victim of a sexual predator. She is buried somewhere in the Haverhill area, the searchers never found any trace of her because they concentrated on the idea she was hiding in the woods to avoid the police. Someone in that general area took Maura raped and murdered her she is most likely buried within the Haverhill area, on the eastbound side of 112. She was probably murdered within hours of her disappearance. The murdered will be a local resident, whom no body would suspect, and most likely still lives in the area. Maura's history with her family shows this, as she would not be likely to leave her family struggling with not knowing her whereabouts for more than 17 years. When there is such an abrupt disappearance of such a beautiful young woman with no trace after all these years it is very apparent she is dead and has been within hours of her disappearance. Somewhere within a few miles of her accident, she lies buried in one of the properties not far from where her car was found. It she's ever found and the case solved everyone will be absolutely shocked by who is responsibile.
Those saturns from around that time have lots of general issues with them. multiple friends of mine used to have a similar model and all I heard was complaints about them. I assume she had constant car issues as well
I just can't get past the thought.. If she new her car was in bad shape, why take a drive into the mountains? Drinking or not common sense would tell me Bad Idea!! Just gives me anxiety thinking about it..
Autumn Cook yea I agree with you. Plus the whole no hazard lights thing or lights on at all sitting in the car makes me think maybe she wanted to get hit. Who knows. But the first thing I do is pull off to the side and put on hazards and interior lights so I’m seen. And I get out of the car to make sure I’m safe while talking I others or making calls
"...her car was in bad shape, why take a drive into the mountains? :... This takes me back to many years ago. I wanted to get away for a long weekend up in the mountains (coincidentally, New England) so badly that I ignored a loud rapping in the engine. It turns out that a connecting rod broke and was industriously making a hole in the engine block. I didn't get very far, and that car never ran again.
My Grandparents were driving in the Mountains and spun out on a curve. They were sideways in a white car in the snow and a large truck came around the curve. If you're in a similar situation get out of the car and make sure you're safe first. Put something in the road (flares or orange cones are great ideas) but anything that would warn a driver about you would be worth it before you work on the car. Much love.
I think his explanation re. the potential accident sounds really consistent. They would have to "clean" up after her. And the timeframe fits nicely. Hmmm.... 2 months coma, that also sounds like a violent accident...
Albuquerque, June 10, 2018: "Missing Air Force officer with top security clearance who disappeared 35 years ago has been found in California." Looks like it can be done. So who knows?
Stream of conscience as I'm binging on this podcast: It seems, to me, that she was trying to run away from something, perhaps permanently or perhaps not. I think we have to think about the accident that was briefly discussed in Ep 2 where the person was seriously injured in a hit and run (Im writing this as I read and I would assume that the topic of this accident will come up in later episodes). The fact that Maura was absent from work during the time period of the accident and that she returned despondent and offered no explanation as to why, leads me to think that it seems plausible that she was the driver in the accident. If she feared that she could've been caught and understood that she would be in serious legal trouble, this could serve as a motive to simply disappear. FF to the NH accident: She is drunk, potentially suffering from exposure to fumes from the rag in the tailpipe (which is such a bizzare feature of the story that its almost impossible to speculate on it), and must have sustained a good amount of head trauma in the crash. She certainly would have been disoriented, and in the region where she was, would have been in an extremely dangerous situation had she not planned for this. So was the accident planned? To me, I can't see a situation where she turns down a ride from the bus-driver if not. Even though getting into a van with a stranger is daunting (especially for an attractive young woman), being stranded and alone in the white mountains is far scarier. I don't think that fear of a DUI (although it is something to consider) would lead her to wander off into the woods in the condition that she would have been in, especially since she's already demonstrated her ability to dodge DUIs. So what options are we left with? The obvious one, the Fred Murray theory, is that an opportunistic killer/rapist either stumbles across her on the road or has been following her for some time. To me, either scenario is pretty inconceivable. The tight timeframe, mixed with the low volume of traffic on this road at the time, raise the odds of a psycho-killer stumbling on her to crazy levels, much higher than one in a 100 million for me. The other scenario where the would-be perpetrator follows her from somewhere (like the gas station) obviously faces similar odds but would be much more conceivable were it not for the siting by the bus driver. Assuming who he sees is Maura, where is our (in my opinion fictional) psycho-killer when he sees her? If he was following her car, one would think that he would have moved in immediately after the accident when Maura was dazed and confused, not wait around until after the bus driver comes along. So to me, Maura's not abducted. It just doesn't add up. Given her disorientation following the accident, a plausible explanation would be so say maybe she just wandered off and found herself in over her head in the cold. But then there'd be a body. She couldn't have made it far enough to make it so that they didn't find her body. For me, there's much more going on here. But what was the plan? What's Maura's end game? Here's an idea: maybe there's a second car involved in the NH crash, someone that she was traveling with caravan-style. So regardless of whether or not crashing in the location which she did is intentional, I don't think Maura panics, or else she would have taken the ride from the bus driver. She's got her bases covered. Maybe she walks off at first but for me there has to be a co-conspirator. Who's that? Kate or the dad would the logical suspects. Just as I'm typing this, the detective is confirming my suspicions about the hit and run. Fascinating. Do we think that her sole motive was to evade the hit and run charge? Or maybe there's more to the story.
So if Petrit Vassi was hit by Maura, is that how her windshield was broken? Had anyone seen her car between the hit and run and her accident with the snowbank? Also, if she wandered out into the woods, would there not be footprints in the snow?
1. I've never heard an authorative source say an airbag caused the damage to Maura's windshield. Where did you hear that? 2. Even if an airbag did cause the windshield damage, it doesn't prove anything about Maura hitting or not hitting Vasi.
is the family catholic?...I have a cousin that shot himself and the family was forced to cover it up as an accident, local police even helped....probably because of how many family members are volunteer firemen and EMT's that have worked with those officers. The family would not have been allowed to bury there son in the family plot as it was a catholic cemetery that denied access to suicides. The family could not have afforded alternative burial plans. I was barred from the funeral...calling hours due to being somewhat close to him....this never mad sense to be but years later a family member told me there was a fear I would've blown the coverup...protested it...and that some thought of me as an enabler as we would get together on weekends to drink beer, play video games, and watch movies. In Maura's case this maybe why her parents have been so dodgy...I don't think her father wanted her dead
God I hope so. I just started listening. The other guy was terrible. In fact the two hosts of this podcast are too. I'm hoping this eventually gets better. Already I'm not impressed simply from his statement that these guys do a great job especially at separating fact from speculation. I think they've actually done a horrible job of that. And for this guy to think otherwise I already have lost respect and have my guard up. But I will try to give him a chance
I don't know if this has been brought up...and forgive me if I'm just repeating what someone else has said...but in the pictures of the car after the crash there is damage to the driver's side. That means she would have had to hit something on her left while driving. I don't know if that information has been clarified or not? Also, I don't know when the pictures were taken, but there doesn't seem to be any snow around in the pictures.
I think they alluded to it on a different episode where they said that there was damage to her car that couldn't be accounted for in the accident involving the tree and the snowbank....but they didn't really go into it other than mentioning it.
Enough with Fred Murray!! We get it, you guys don't like him....Anytime he is mentioned on this podcast there is always some snicker remark to always bring it back to some way make to him this other person...Regardless if he was aware of Maura being distraught which he obviously was and even if he feared in the beginning that she was suicidal and then changed it to a local dirtbag took her....So what? His daughter has disappeared!!!!! He was found on private property wandering around?....Yah looking for Maura! What about the fact that some people in the area would not even let police search there yards. I could only imagine how frustrated and desperate I would be to find my daughter. If you have any children then you can only imagine the horror...Get over bashing Fred Murray!!
In the Disappeared episode, Fred specifically said Maura wasn't familiar with this 112 area...Clint contradicts this with his assertion that they had hiked in October in the very area?
I'm a little late to this episode, but I don't feel like the Tylenol PM is relevant if she was going to commit suicide. I take an offbrand version of Tylenol, and when I researched it, I found that a lot of people attempt suicide with it because they think it'll make them pass out and they won't feel anything. This isn't true, and Maura probably would've known this since she was a nursing student. If she really was going to commit suicide via the Diphenhydramine in the Tylenol, she could've just purchased Benadryl, which I would think would have a higher chance of being successful (although Diphenhydramine poisoning itself takes up to 18 hours to kill a person, which she also would've probably known. That would mean up to 18 hours of someone potentially finding her and saving her. It's just a stupid way of doing it [anyway of committing suicide is bad, but I'm just saying that considering how intelligent she was, and her being in nursing school, she would've had knowledge of how commit suicide in a way that would be more likely to be "successful"]) Even if she just wanted to take a couple and drink a bunch of alcohol and cause a crash, that's just statistically unlikely. Women commit suicide using methods that will leave less of a mess to clean up. If she went through the trouble of packing all of her things so her family wouldn't have to do it, then why would she commit suicide by car crash. Car crashes are messy, plus it would most likely give her dad/family even more things to deal with regarding insurance, along with the insurance of the last car she crashed.
Interestingly just last week a 10 year study was published in medical journal about acetaminophen being responsible for bad decision making in young adults
While you may b right, the 12midnight call was really the catalyst for her being upset- or that it was related to the hitnrun of PM, I'm not convinced that the 10pm call w/ her sister was NOT what upset her- either. As a female who was once an emotional young woman- it CAN take time for a conversation to slowly build on a person and lead to an hour or two later breakdown. Perhaps it did not hit Maura during that call w/ her sister but worked on her for hours leading to an hours later breakdown.
+Cate Ellington Have to go with what is known and try and stay away from playing the speculation game (male or female really shouldn't matter). Maura had a phone call at 12:07 a.m. which fits more in-line of when she broke-down at work. Maura's sister has consistently swore through out the years that her phone call with Maura was very routine and she absolutely cannot come up with anything from it that would've led to Maura becoming upset. Those are the parameters we have to work with, throwing in speculation or what if's really will not be able to help bring any clarity. The question I have always had from that breakdown is why hasn't anyone from Maura's family or the police (publically) ever mentioned her 12:07 a.m. phone call with Billy? Maura's cell phone records for that night were never meant to be seen by the public, if the family knew ahead of time that the public would accidently be able to get a hold of them for that night (thanks to the disappeared episode) then I am certain, they would've addressed her phone call with billy ahead of time to explain it away like they do so many times with so many other things. Once again, I believe IMO, that there is deception (spin) being brought into this case and the question is ... WHY?
+Clint Harting I appreciate your perspective you are brining a level headed approach and I like how you bring things back to the verifiable facts and clearly state when you are speculating. I am new to this case so if my following questions have already been answered later on I apologize. The Phone call/break down event. Around 12:45 am to about 1:00 am the Supervisor was notified that Maura was in distress. What were the particulars of who or why Maura was reported in distress? Did the Supervisor just walk up on her as a routine check and found he?r Did someone go to another dorm and report Maura wasn't responding etc? During the breakdown when Maura said “My sister” was it possible that Maura was referring to a friend or a woman other than her sister? Like a Sorority members do? Was she in a Sorority? Perhaps a friend walked into the dorm and told Maura that female teammate from a running team had been raped/robbed/mugged/died? Could here Boy Friend who was in the military maybe tell her about a friend she was close too from her days in Westpoint was being deployed or killed in Iraq?
+Chris Davis Hey Chris! Maura was crying at the security desk and word got back to her supervisor through walkie talkie traffic to go check on her. Maura's supervisor was responsible for several dorm monitors and so the supervisor went to check on Maura at the request of the supervisor's boss. It is unknown what Maura meant by saying "My Sister", she was unresponsive and crying after saying that. The supervisor made an attempt to get Maura to fill her in on what was wrong, but Maura didn't answer. Maura had to be physically prodded to leave the desk area and led out of the dorm she was working at. She just sat there and would not go even though she had been relieved of her duties. The supervisor actually had to go and pack up Maura's school backpack for her and start to walk out the door just to get Maura to follow.
So this first responder arrives at 7:29pm, only 2 mins after Pat Westman makes the 911 call at 7:27pm? She barely had time to hang the phone up. I would imagine after making a 911 call about an accident pretty much across from my house I would continue to look out my window. Also if some one responded that quickly, why would Butch Atwood have to call it in at 7:43pm? Who was the first to arrive? Cecil Smith of HPD? John Monaghan the State Trooper? EMS? Pretty quick response? So within a possible 2 mins time Maura is gone? Yet the Westman's did not see anything? No one else finds this WEIRD...
+Linus Zims a lot of people get the timeline wrong. So I will post it here.7:27 p.m. --- Faith Westman Calls 9117:29 p.m. --- Officer Cecil Smith dispatched7:43 p.m. ---- Hanover 911 advises Grafton Co. 911 that the Atwoods are trying to get a hold of them (their line was tied up)7:46 p.m. --- Officer Cecil Smith arrives to the scene7:56 p.m. --- EMS Arrives7:57 p.m. -- Fire Arrives8:02 p.m. ---- EMS leaves the sceneAt some point Lavoies Auto Care and Tow is called to come pickup the car8:49 p.m. --- Fire leaves the scene9:26 p.m. ---- Scene officially cleared by Officer Smith who departs.
+Clint Harting I am well aware of the facts in this case and as a fellow person who wants to find any clues to Maura's disappearance , I only wrote about the timing because knowing all the facts that I have read and looked up in the past 11 plus years that I was aware of, I never knew of someone showing up at 7:29pm. So it seemed odd when I heard your interview on here you said at 45:23 on the podcast "The main guy, the first responder that showed up, he was on scene well passed everybody else. He cleared the scene at 9:26pm. So that's, he was on scene after arriving at 7:29pm"... Key part of your quote "after arriving at 7:29pm". Maybe you never meant to say that , but if you listen back that is what you said. I am well aware of all of the other times as they are public knowledge and have been trying to find any missing pieces to this case since I first read it in my local newspaper in 2004. I also thought that it was never and has never been made public knowledge who arrived first between the State Trooper John Monaghan or Cecil Smith. I guess that is why I always assumed it was John Monaghan, because his police report has never been made public like Cecil's. Please also know that I thought your interview was helpful and I do believe that you truly are trying to find answers too.
+Clint Harting Even so, there has to be some sort of documentation of him arriving and when. How did he happen to hear about it if he is off duty? his scanner? was he just driving by? These are questions that so many have. Off duty or not, there has never been a clear answer if was or was not the first officer to arrive.(off duty or not). Also was he in his own personal vehicle or his patrol car when he arrived?
.. hi all, im not so much into crime as more a kind of a Kidnap/mysterious dissap. geek ever since hearing of Jaycee dugards case yrs bk. I been listening this podcast for a few days and have become completely fascinated with it and developed a genuine interest in finding the truth of what happened to this poor young woman. So many possibilities, anyway these guys are doing an excellent job so much information there sifting through. and it does seem totally feasible and even very likely she did hit that young boy and was scared to death and it only added to her stressors at the time which would totally explain her wanting to leave town and go start a new somewhere or at least get away and decompress/clear her mind. Keep all avenues of possibility Open in mind, an the truth shall set free. dailycollegian.com/2004/02/09/umass-student-found-unconscious-in-the-road-police-unsure-whether-accident-was-a-hit-and-run/
Billy’s mother stated in an interview in the Missing broadcast that their family had given Maura a AAA membership bc her car was so unreliable. What I find questionable is if her dad brought $4k w him to buy a car and they went car shopping, why didn’t they buy one that day?
I'm not sure what to think about the textbooks - just in case or something? But people keep talking about her having work-out clothes in the car and I don't hear mention of other clothes. If she's anything like me, she could just wear comfortable "work-out clothes" all of the time even when not intending to work-out?
Didn’t know the self-harm statement was made by Fred Murray or I forgot it. ‘Not Without Peril’ being in the car indicates a possible clue in that direction but not necessarily.
Although I disagree with much of these podcast and even though I haven't gotten far enough in this one yet to hear their theories the first time I heard about the hit and run something jumped out at me. And even now it's the only answer to the why she would want to run away or disappear. Othet than that she's gotten out scott-free from everything else she did. Nothing in her past would really, truly, or permanently effect her future. A hit and run though that would. However, she would have been at work or on break anyway so she was sober seemingly. In that case it's an accident. It wouldn't be criminal maybe some traffic violations worst would be any civil responsibility. She may have even though she killed him which would up the steaks for sure but I still think as long as she was sober would cause any criminal again just violations and civil lawsuits that she would have a good change of winning by simply saying he crossed in front of me it was his fault unless they could prove she was doing something reckless like speeding which also is possible given the severe injuries but being hit at just the right angle or landing at the right angle could potentionally cause those injuries. I've never heard what law enforcement speculate to have happened during that hit and run for example speed.
Fred Murray said one time I don't know if you can Google this it's on one of the RUclips podcast I don't know which one I don't have the link but anyway Fred Mary said one time that she probably did the squaw walk into the woods, he described the sqaw walk being in the book not without peril, the sqaw walk is about how the old Indians used to walk into the wildernessand walk as far out as possible so that they could not come back and they would die out there, has anybody heard about this?when she first was missing that first-year Fred Murray said himself that she probably did this then he changes his mind and says that she would never commit suicide, I think he went into denial
@@Godsmightywarrior1964 yes, what I read was that when the Murray family first realized Maura was missing he said he was worried that’s what she had done.
17:00 But considering how bad a driver Maura seems to have been, the speculation can definitely be made ;-). I know that was not nice to say but I just had to come out with it ;-)
the two interview shows were great. How much of the alcohol and Tylenol PM was left in her car? Did she take her cell phone? I tend to lean toward her walking away to start a new life. I think she probably was involved in the Patriet Bassey accident, and panicked and left. If it were suicide, I think they probably would have found a body and if she left booze and tylenol in the car, then her "instruments of suicide" were left behind.
+Ts0usermax was any of the other alcohol that she purchased found in the car? It seems like if she had walked away to do harm to yourself, they would have seen tracks in the snow and she probably wouldn't have gotten that far that quickly. The fact that she basically was gone in a matter of minutes and the fact that the dogs hit on an area that seem to end at the road leads me to believe that she got in a car. However, I don't think it was a local dirt bag because she wouldn't go with the bus driver so why would she then get in a car with somebody that she didn't know?
Maura purchased four bottles of alcohol at the liquor store to start the trip. Two were still in the car when police arrived, indicating she took two with her. Even if a Tylenol bottle was found in the car it doesn't mean she didn't have other drugs in her pockets or backpack. She was a nursing student. Also, her "instrument of suicide" was all around her. Staying out that cold February night would have caused hypothermia and death.
When she stopped or braked when she hit him I wonder if it left tire tracks that maybe they can match up with her tires?? Wasn't there any witnesses around when he was hit?
Just a couple weeks ago I saw on local texhoma new a whitcha falls woman who crashed her car in what police thought was suicide by car wreck afterward when her mom had retrieved the vehicle there was a real-time GPS tracking device hid up in the undercarrige..suicide by car wreck is ridiculous
The idea of a local dirt bag is problematic because it requires some nefarious fiend happening upon her by chance not stalking and hunting her down possible I guess, but seems unlikely.
It requires two BIG coincidences, too. 1. that one of the next few ppl to pass her was a sicko felony criminal and 2. That all her stresses and things previously in her life that pointed to suicide are completely irrelevant. At first, I thought it was foul play, too, but as I heard the details, I believe it to be suicide. But I also believe it to be suicide for good reason...I think she may have been involved in that hit and run, which explains a lot.
Unless she went into a bar where the creeps hang out - she must have had to use a restroom along the way and she did like to drink, so some theories say she may have gone into the bar, some local dirtbags there saw here, talked her into taking the road that had no cell, knew she would break down, stalked her there, she trusted them because she had hung out with them at the bar, got in the car, got raped and killed in a cabin.
After listening to this podcast, I am wondering if they knew she hit Vasi or at least her dad, but then again if she hit Vasi and her dad know about it,I don't think he'd be looking all over the place for her and he has been looking all over the place for her when the investigation first started and even into 15 years 10 years later,she might have hit vasi and not told anybody about it and that was the last straw for hershe might have gone into the White mountains to commit suicide but why was a backpack and clothes never found
I think it's allways interesting when someone retaces one's steps or drive and tries to put themselves in the missing person's mind set and try to recreate the incident and see what clues or revelations might come from this..I'd like to see a realy good recreation with a crappy car..a girl her age that can get in her mindset..take the same rout at the same time of day on same month same day of week..make the same stops..see what all if anything can be gleamed from this
@@lostlanaya8927 Tylenol can indeed cause liver failure and thus eventual death, but you have to either be taking large doses on a regular basis for an extended period of time, or a single massive dose, which for someone Maura's size and health would likely be in excess of 100 tablets even with the alcohol, and consuming that many pills without throwing up would be a feat unto itself, especially if one were drinking. If she were suicidal, taking a Tylenol overdose is one of the most painful, slow, and horrible ways to go. It's possible she could take the Tylenol PM on a regular basis for help sleeping or as somewhat of a "buzz" due to the diphenhydramine (the PM part) but this is just Benadryl and there is no recreational use for acetaminophen itself so using Tylenol PM instead of just plain Benadryl doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus she is going to college and something of a party girl, I think if she wanted some type of sedative for recreational or suicidal purposes, she could find something better than OTC antihistamines. So while it's possible she could have suffered chronic liver damage from taking large doses on a regular basis, this is something you typically see with something like Percocet, where the person is taking the drug for the narcotic portion and the Tylenol portion is incidental and ends up damaging the liver.
I think it is important for police to investigate the hit and run. If they find out what happened there it could help this case or it won't help it at all but at least that case would be solved which should be just as important. Kind of crazy his case isn't solved either and no one cares. And if Maura did hit him omg she got very lucky. It almost makes makes me think she was involved because it seems she's gotten very lucky with so many things and this was just another one.
Music Teacher Guy What ISN'T wrong with James Renner? The guy has allowed his crazy theories with no evidence to take control of the narrative. He accuses anyone who does not want to speak with him as having something to hide and he could have very well accused some innocent people of heinous things. Also, he has to make everything all about himself. I think he's into the Maura Murray case for his own ego, not for Maura and her family. The guy is a fool.
Missing Maura Murray there's a girl I worked with in Michigan who resembles maura a lot. Same teeth, eye color, nose, as soon as I saw this story i said wow she looks so much like this person. Here is her Twitter mobile.twitter.com/purplerose315
How is the damage on the drivers side if she was headed east and flipped around, facing west in the eastbound lane. Wouldn't she have veered to the right and flipped around left and the damage would be on the passenger's side?
I mean after the accident, she had two choices: use her phone to call someone or get picked up by a stranger/walk to a strangers house. Wouldnt they know if she used her phone?
so MAURA was the one who put the rag in her tailpipe to try and kill herself?? or did Fred bring that up? I had thought Fred brought that up and knew about it
16:30 What is that accident they refer to?! It's the first time that I hear that case in connection with Maura. So they speculate that she was involved in a hit-and-run and had to get away??
Petrit Vasi was struck by a hit-and-run driver less than a mile from Maura at a time when she may have been taking a break on her job. Later that night Maura had her nervous breakdown at work. Early news reports said that Vasi was in critical condition and not expected to live. After many months, Vasi recovered but could not remember the accident.
think his explanation re. the potential accident sounds really consistent. They would have to "clean" up after her. And the timeframe fits nicely. Hmmm.... 2 months coma, that also sounds like a violent accident...
, its Quite possible Maura "accidentally " hit the young man Vasi, Run off and freaked out as she may have just almost committed vehicular manslaughter, further adding to her stressors
they lost months of investigation time whle dude was in a coma and 04 wasnt like today...theyre werent security cameras litterally everywhere. Today you can track a car across a state lol. Back in 2004 that kinda stuff was just starting.
A great podcast. I agree with Clint, her intentions were suicidal, was too intoxicated to reach where she was going, and crashed. The bus driver's story, could well be true, she did refuse his help. However sniffer dogs tracked her scent 100 yards from the car, and then lost the scent, not into the woods, but along the road. Makes me wonder if after the bus drove off, she had a change of mind, and ran 100 yards after the bus, and was picked up by the driver. I assume dogs were used inside his bus, and at his home?
+Billy No Mates The one trail-scent dog that was used (it was forecasted ahead of time) was only going to be able to pull a scent for 100-yards or so. The dog lost the scent right at an intersection (Rt. 112 - Bradley Hill Rd) Because of the time of the year (Cold weather), cross-winds ( a biggie) and time that had passed since Maura went missing, the dog losing her scent where it lost it, was not a surprise and not a good indicator of what happened to Maura after that.But with that said, it would make sense that Maura received a ride from someone passing by to help. The road was clear that night, so her footprints would not be seen if she stayed close to the road, so she could've left on foot and made it further east before darting off a path to avoid being seen, if that is what she wanted to do.The only pure fact from the intial dog search is that the dog did pick up Maura's scent right at her car. There were footprints from Maura in the snowbank her car was stuck in and the dog did head east tracking Maura's scent before the scent particles disappeared or were scattered to much (about 100-yards away from Maura's carClint Harting
+Paula Narva No I haven't published a timeline. I am assuming you mean that of the car accident. I just use the information that is known mostly. I do feel like I have a pretty strong grasp on the factual information concerning this case and that is mostly how I try and help, by sticking to known factual information versus trying to solve the case per se.
The first guy to say he wants to help the family and feels bad for Fred in this podcast and you guys immediately interject with yeah well people say Fred'a a liar. Do you guys hate this family or something? Trust me I am only here for the facts and interviews I dont want to hear you mud slinging crappy theories.
Wouldn't someone have to be sitting in the passenger seat for airbag to go off. My airbags on passenger seat are off unless there is weight in seat. And why would she withdrawal the money if she was gonna commit suicide. I don't believe the suicide theory.
Would have to look up the information on her year, make and model. She didn’t commit suicide I think she was trying to avoid trouble with the cops I don’t know if she had a cell phone to call her dad but maybe she even wanted to avoid that too. It’s really bizarre I just can’t wrap my mind around it. This case, Brandon Lawson and Swanson are cases that annoy the living hell out of me. So crazy that people can disappear by themselves to a point that intensive searches cannot even find them. Like wtf happened!!
The alcohol and the money from her account, her stuff, and pushing a car thats in bad shape to its limits all make it sound like she was desperate to get away and party for awhile..I think with a guy or small group and didn't make it..I think she may very well have thought someone, a guy, would be wear she's going and could maybe be able to help with her car while she's there...she was on a mission to get somewhere and to somebody
This is 💯 one of the best podcasts everything he says is what I believe happened to Maura and the Hit and run and Fred showing up that Sat with 4,000 dollars most likely to fix the Saturn...I feel that Maura was going to ditch the Saturn in the woods far up in New Hampshire and there was a tandem driver most likely Kathleen..was to pick her up or met her somewhere but Maura came into contact with New Hampshire 's finest....And her demise...
I can see this happening. The red truck that was seen in the area believed to have MA plates fits in this scenario. Kathleen's husband drove a red truck. If I remember correctly Maura also called a body shop the day after the Vasi hit too.
I wonder if Maura had a connection to frogs? Did she like them? I drove by there, took a picture that was aimed at the sky and saw a cloud that looked like a flying frog. Initially I thought it looked like a bird carrying someone away. I took this to symbolize that she was taken away by someone.
I feel like she was wanting to dip out and party and forget her troubles for awhile and some predator sensed this volunerability like predators do and things went bad for her..I think there's a chance she called either someone from the area or someone where she was going and who knows who heard her plight and where she was on the other end of the phonecall..no telling how many calls she made or who was listening on the other side..I can't shake the feeling she was predated and this is very much predator activity..the fact there's no real wittness and no body found says professional to me..I wouldn't be superised at all if some day the figure this out and it was a serial killer..
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7Wf0h1Q8a4/mqdefault.jpg)
This episode was definitely an improvement over the last (Renner) one. Harting comes across as very objective and that is always a plus for cases like this, where the evidence is so tantalizingly slim. Harting resisted the urge to fill in blank areas with the kind of speculation that far too often leads to the worst kind of theories in similar cases. OK, you've convinced me to stick around for the next episode.
Very interesting. Thanks Clint!
Considering her driving ability it is not unlikely that she was involved in the Vasis case...and it would explain her behavior that night.
A female perspective is needed when it comes to certain speculations. I get guys are typically matter of fact- and a lot of speculations come from a seemingly rigid male mindset.
The motel room is another thing that I hear u guys going back forth on- but what came to my mind is that rather there needing to be a two bed room or why Fred didn't wake up- Maura could hv easily crashed on a chair in the room. Fred could hv been a hard sleeper or been one to wear ear plugs - like my husband.
I still agree tho way too many bizarre coincidences and I'm really enjoying these podcasts. So great work and thank you!!
As someone who has suffered from depression, I can tell you that you cannot fake the level of depression talked about in the evening with Maura's supervisor. It is something you see in someone's eyes when they stare straight through you. Since Karen herself had felt those emotions, she is highly capable of recognizing this exact emotional state. She most likely has looked that way her self throughout her struggles.
I think you're giving Karen too much credit to spot depression. On one hand we're saying something happened that night that was so traumatic that she went into this state almost out of no where but on the other hand we're saying she's depressed and that Karen is able to spot that. I think depression is something that is built up not brought on that quickly. I realize she could have been depressed for a while but that would change this theory around then.
Great interview!!! Really like this guy and thank you 4 your service, sir👍🙏🇺🇸
Now CLINT is an excellent journalist. He is correct. This is what happened to Maura. No doubt. She walked until she couldn't walk any more.
Another great episode! Thank you so much for this podcast. Like Clint, I instantly became obsessed with Maura's case when I first saw the Disappeared episode a couple years ago. I don't really have a scenario I particularly favor over others, but since the McStay Family case ended so sadly (I was absolutely convinced they were alive!), I've prepared myself to think Maura, out of either desperation, drunkenness or a manic episode, ran into the woods after the accident, died of exposure and that one day her remains will be found. With that being said, I do think it's possible that she could be alive and regardless, Fred, Billy and Maura's friends know more about her inner demons than they are letting on.
So with that in mind, I wonder if at some point you could talk more in depth about the investigations and the, I believe, two formal searches that were done after she disappeared, along with the K9 search, the A-frame, the guy that gave Fred a knife (says Wikipedia anyway, I feel that doesn't come up a lot), etc. How many miles away from the accident and in what direction(s) did they search? Would it be worth looking again? And finally, has anyone looked hard through the Doe Network in and around New England and Canada (or hell, even many states away)? I can't help but think back to those two Disappeared episodes with Colleen Orsborn and Samantha Bonnell, whose remains were found and labeled as Jane Does due to misinformation or something stupid. Just a thought. I'm sure James Renner and many others have monitored remains as they are found in the area, but you never know.
Excited for more episodes and the upcoming documentary! Thanks again!
+Nicholas Krancher Thank you! I've poked around The Doe Network myself, but not too much. I did check NH and the few there could not possibly be Maura based on dates. Also, most of the Jane Does are the women found in the barrels at Bear Brook State Park. Another creepy case!
+Lauren Williams Along with Lauren, Clint and many others, I also became interested in this case from watching the Disappeared episode. I would also like to hear more about what Lauren mentioned (K-9 search at the A-frame house and the supposed knife that Fred was given). I think it would be fascinating if Tom Shamshak, the former Boston area police chief, could be interviewed on an upcoming podcast. From watching the 20/20 episode, he performed his own investigation on this case. He must have some very specific details/opinions and it would be very worthwhile to hear from someone who is a professional in the field.
I have really enjoyed listening to these podcasts. I don't mind the time that is taken on the speculation, because that is really all there is after all of these years with very limited new information we can consider as fact. After thinking back to the first time I watched the Disappeared episode, I think I was so intrigued due to the fact that they made Maura out to be the perfect student, daughter, girlfriend and friend. It made the disappearance even more baffling, because many of the cases on the Disappeared series focused on individuals who clearly had drug-related problems and/or deliberately put themselves in dangerous or illegal situations. So, it was because of the "perfect girl" image that encouraged me to look on-line to then learn about the other information we did not learn from the Disappeared episode. If they had included all of the other information (credit card fraud, cheating on her boyfriend, heavy alcohol use, etc.), I don't know if I would have bothered to research this case after turning the TV off that night. So, in my case, the lack of negative information about Maura encouraged me to look further. All of us became interested in this case for many different reasons and these podcasts give us all a chance to hear what Tim and Lance have to say. Look at all of the comments/suggestions/questions that have been mentioned out of the 8 episodes so far. All it could take is the eye-witness account of 1 person to realize there is such a podcast and blow this case wide open. I am looking forward to listening to more.
+Lauren Williams My personal opinion about the knife (that was attempted to be turned in to police and later mailed to them after they refused to accept it in person) and the A-Frame House Blood sample taken from carpet and the panties found in a ditch --- is that these were items discovered moreso to try and gather up fresh interest in the case from the media, than they were actual legit ties to the case.I don't have full proof of that, however and I'm not saying family didn't actually come across these items in a legit manner (just maybe that they let their imaginations run wild a little bit with it)I do know (especially when it comes to the A-Frame house off of Valley Rd,. that this "Discovery" was made during a pre-arranged (family notifying media ahead of time) weekend in which family hired investigators were out looking for clues/new evidence.It to me smells of a publicity stunt to try and strum up renewed interest in the case.Not saying there is anything wrong with it, just how It comes across to me, both because of the actual investigators lack of interest in the items and also the notion that family did seem to like to involve the media in trying to keep pressure on police (which there is nothing wrong with that).Clint Harting
I also do know that when family coordinated this weekend search (I believe in October of 2006), they did use some very good search dogs around the location of where Maura wrecked. However, they were not allowed to search on private land around the area and their search only covered a five-mile radius
Clint Harting yy
I've actually been following this case since maybe 9 months after she went missing. I'm so glad to see this podcast and the theories are very interesting.
+Pasic TP sadly no. I have developed theories based on other people's work. I have narrowed it down to 2 scenarios. 1, she's alive after escaping her previous life. 2, she went into the woods and died of the elements. I lean towards the first one.
+Pasic TP it could easily be that I watch too much tv but there has been a lot of alleged sightings of her in eastern Canada.
+Pasic TP true but all the sightings are around the same town. I don't remember the name but it's on James Renner's page
@@CharleyCarey but what is she escaping. Everyone says she's escaping....sounds like she had it pretty good other. On the surface from what I've heard there really were no problems.
She was asked to leave her old school, she did and got into umass, she stole a credit card and got 6 months probation no actual criminal record for it and only had about 3 month left on that. Not life ending or something to run from. She crashed her dad's car while most likely drunk and got away with it and her dad wasn't even that upset again why would anyone run from that? Yes if all of this happened and she was facing such terrible criminal charges maybe but she wasn't. She basically got away with all of this stuff with no criminal record and a little more than a year before graduating nursing school. Again, wtf is she running from?
I've been following this case since 2011 and its interesting. I also wanna say i'm enjoying the podcast......keep up the good work, guys!
I have to say that Clink Hartings theory on this makes the most sense to me. I may change my mind after hearing more of the podcast episodes since this was only #7. The suicide theory makes sense because of: 1. her items being packed up. 2. borrowed item returned when she didn't want to talk to anyone. 3. checking out places to go where she had good memories 4. the alcohol, Tylenol PM, & rag in exhaust pipe. 5. Why friends & family don't want to disclose all the information about her. 6. Why her family isn't looking for her anymore.
Kimberly Griffith a
Ggh
yeah I mean it's that is so so possible she hit that poor kid and so awful about it and was scared to death and thought her life is about to go completely down hill and derail I mean but I wouldn't think that it would alone make her suicidal but it would definitely explain why she skipped town and wanted to disappear and take a break or possibly change her life
I don't even know how i stumbled on this podcast but I've been listening non stop since last night. I'm from the Burlington VT area and live in southern NH now. When I go to visit family around Woodsville NH I drive on 112 where she disappeared. That drive at night has always creeped me out because it's so isolated. I've hiked near there and its really remote. It's hard to believe she could disappear on foot in that area. Especially if she was drunk.
Another odd discrepancy is the hazard light's on Maura's car. One of the witnesses that night Virginia Marrotte said "from our kitchen window we saw a car down the road with trouble lights flashing, and someone walking around the car". They then said that they observed another neighbor arrive on the scene with a school bus. The discrepancy is that Butch Atwood, the school bus driver had said that he advised Maura to put on her lights to avoid getting hit by any cars coming around the bend. Which is it? When were her lights put on? If Maura was trying to hide, would she put her hazards on? Also I thought Butch said that Maura was in the driver's side the whole time when he spoke to her and it was hard for her to get out because the driver side was against the snowbank. I know this is not new insight, but there are just too many discrepancies to this case and that is why it frustrates so many.
That seems like a minor detail that can be easily confused when trying to remember that kind of detail when you feel under pressure to do so could create a false memory.
This podcast is excellent
This particular case has always seemed more like someone trying to run away from something, than an abduction situation. It's just been so much bs around this story, it's nice to actually listen to someone tell the actual facts of the case. It does make a lot more sense that the police would search more for a person who they believe has been abducted, than someone going into the woods to do harm to themselves. Great job guys!
Clint Harting is a breath of fresh air compared to James Renner.
Though I can't help but notice you guys got so caught up on Renner's spin on Fred Murray and actually believe him to be involved in her disappearance that you are not looking at the situation objectively. Still, as long as Renner is not a guest, your show is addictive.
Droopy Dawg , i agree
Me too
Hey Clint! My hometown is right up the road in Roxana, but I live just across the river now. My husband went medical school at SIUC! Go Salukis!!
This was a great episode . Especially after the last one. He is not letting you guys go off on a tangent and has great information. He has put you right on a few things as well. You guys are a lot quieter .One issue you keep talking about the dad being suspicious. Asking other guests that as a first question . Maybe move on a bit .It was starting to get repetitive. But great episode guys.
Because from the sounds of it they believe Maura is still alive and the father has helped her. I don't get it why would he help her disappear. She was really in absolutely no trouble other than having to be on some kind of probation for 6 months and only having about 3 months left she didn't actually have anything to run from. So for her dad to help her, Why? So the rest of the family can just live with uncertainty about what happened but not him. No and if they do know too then who the hell is she running from. If that's the case she could have just moved away on her own without this drama.
Hi, I've only recently joined in listening to the numerous podcasts on Maura Murray. Everyone has an opinion on this, here's mine after much reflection. I do not believe Maura killed herself. I believe she really just wanted a break from the chaos of recent events in her young life. There is only one explanation that makes sense. She was driving to her destination, while drinking, she was intoxicated, too much so to remain on scene and deal with police in yet another incident of her bad decision making, and the result. So she gathered some of her belongings and walked east on route 112. The dogs tracked her twice to the junction just a short distance from accident scene. She is dead, having been the victim of accepting a ride from a predator who, by Mauras misfortune came upon her walking , stopped and offered her a ride. Needing to get away from the scene, she accepted, and became the victim of a sexual predator. She is buried somewhere in the Haverhill area, the searchers never found any trace of her because they concentrated on the idea she was hiding in the woods to avoid the police. Someone in that general area took Maura raped and murdered her she is most likely buried within the Haverhill area, on the eastbound side of 112. She was probably murdered within hours of her disappearance. The murdered will be a local resident, whom no body would suspect, and most likely still lives in the area. Maura's history with her family shows this, as she would not be likely to leave her family struggling with not knowing her whereabouts for more than 17 years. When there is such an abrupt disappearance of such a beautiful young woman with no trace after all these years it is very apparent she is dead and has been within hours of her disappearance. Somewhere within a few miles of her accident, she lies buried in one of the properties not far from where her car was found. It she's ever found and the case solved everyone will be absolutely shocked by who is responsibile.
Those saturns from around that time have lots of general issues with them. multiple friends of mine used to have a similar model and all I heard was complaints about them. I assume she had constant car issues as well
this episode is definitely sitting better with me, thank you.
I just can't get past the thought.. If she new her car was in bad shape, why take a drive into the mountains? Drinking or not common sense would tell me Bad Idea!! Just gives me anxiety thinking about it..
Autumn Cook yea I agree with you. Plus the whole no hazard lights thing or lights on at all sitting in the car makes me think maybe she wanted to get hit. Who knows. But the first thing I do is pull off to the side and put on hazards and interior lights so I’m seen. And I get out of the car to make sure I’m safe while talking I others or making calls
At this age, I would think like that but as a fucked up 21 yr old, I wouldn’t care. I would just sleep in the car if it died or something.
@@NancyNegative0808 exactly what I was thinking
"...her car was in bad shape, why take a drive into the mountains? :...
This takes me back to many years ago. I wanted to get away for a long weekend up in the mountains (coincidentally, New England) so badly that I ignored a loud rapping in the engine. It turns out that a connecting rod broke and was industriously making a hole in the engine block. I didn't get very far, and that car never ran again.
My Grandparents were driving in the Mountains and spun out on a curve. They were sideways in a white car in the snow and a large truck came around the curve.
If you're in a similar situation get out of the car and make sure you're safe first. Put something in the road (flares or orange cones are great ideas) but anything that would warn a driver about you would be worth it before you work on the car. Much love.
If I had to take a guess, Petrit nationality is Albanian
So glad I found you on RUclips!
All these years later and after the new UMASS documents, it looks like Clint was correct.
Can you explain? I have never heard of this.
I think his explanation re. the potential accident sounds really consistent. They would have to "clean" up after her. And the timeframe fits nicely. Hmmm.... 2 months coma, that also sounds like a violent accident...
Interesting. That could actually also explain that she was breaking down on her shift... then something had to happen quickly. She called Fred?
They asked what his ethnicity Petrit is: He's Albanian
Albuquerque, June 10, 2018: "Missing Air Force officer with top security clearance who disappeared 35 years ago has been found in California."
Looks like it can be done. So who knows?
Interesting.
Stream of conscience as I'm binging on this podcast: It seems, to me, that she was trying to run away from something, perhaps permanently or perhaps not. I think we have to think about the accident that was briefly discussed in Ep 2 where the person was seriously injured in a hit and run (Im writing this as I read and I would assume that the topic of this accident will come up in later episodes). The fact that Maura was absent from work during the time period of the accident and that she returned despondent and offered no explanation as to why, leads me to think that it seems plausible that she was the driver in the accident. If she feared that she could've been caught and understood that she would be in serious legal trouble, this could serve as a motive to simply disappear. FF to the NH accident: She is drunk, potentially suffering from exposure to fumes from the rag in the tailpipe (which is such a bizzare feature of the story that its almost impossible to speculate on it), and must have sustained a good amount of head trauma in the crash. She certainly would have been disoriented, and in the region where she was, would have been in an extremely dangerous situation had she not planned for this. So was the accident planned? To me, I can't see a situation where she turns down a ride from the bus-driver if not. Even though getting into a van with a stranger is daunting (especially for an attractive young woman), being stranded and alone in the white mountains is far scarier. I don't think that fear of a DUI (although it is something to consider) would lead her to wander off into the woods in the condition that she would have been in, especially since she's already demonstrated her ability to dodge DUIs. So what options are we left with? The obvious one, the Fred Murray theory, is that an opportunistic killer/rapist either stumbles across her on the road or has been following her for some time. To me, either scenario is pretty inconceivable. The tight timeframe, mixed with the low volume of traffic on this road at the time, raise the odds of a psycho-killer stumbling on her to crazy levels, much higher than one in a 100 million for me. The other scenario where the would-be perpetrator follows her from somewhere (like the gas station) obviously faces similar odds but would be much more conceivable were it not for the siting by the bus driver. Assuming who he sees is Maura, where is our (in my opinion fictional) psycho-killer when he sees her? If he was following her car, one would think that he would have moved in immediately after the accident when Maura was dazed and confused, not wait around until after the bus driver comes along. So to me, Maura's not abducted. It just doesn't add up. Given her disorientation following the accident, a plausible explanation would be so say maybe she just wandered off and found herself in over her head in the cold. But then there'd be a body. She couldn't have made it far enough to make it so that they didn't find her body. For me, there's much more going on here. But what was the plan? What's Maura's end game? Here's an idea: maybe there's a second car involved in the NH crash, someone that she was traveling with caravan-style. So regardless of whether or not crashing in the location which she did is intentional, I don't think Maura panics, or else she would have taken the ride from the bus driver. She's got her bases covered. Maybe she walks off at first but for me there has to be a co-conspirator. Who's that? Kate or the dad would the logical suspects. Just as I'm typing this, the detective is confirming my suspicions about the hit and run. Fascinating. Do we think that her sole motive was to evade the hit and run charge? Or maybe there's more to the story.
All of that sounds good but you have to wonder why would she travel with someone else in separate cars? I can't figure out why
I have always and will always believe that she did the hit and run
excellent show !
So if Petrit Vassi was hit by Maura, is that how her windshield was broken? Had anyone seen her car between the hit and run and her accident with the snowbank? Also, if she wandered out into the woods, would there not be footprints in the snow?
1. I've never heard an authorative source say an airbag caused the damage to Maura's windshield. Where did you hear that?
2. Even if an airbag did cause the windshield damage, it doesn't prove anything about Maura hitting or not hitting Vasi.
The investigation of the car after the NH crash at the snow bank determined the windshield was broken *from the inside* not the outside.
I don't get why Vasi wouldn't wanna help especially if it can help solve the Maura Murray disappearance
He says he cannot remember a thing about that night since day 1 out of the coma and he’s probably tired of being asked about it.
is the family catholic?...I have a cousin that shot himself and the family was forced to cover it up as an accident, local police even helped....probably because of how many family members are volunteer firemen and EMT's that have worked with those officers. The family would not have been allowed to bury there son in the family plot as it was a catholic cemetery that denied access to suicides. The family could not have afforded alternative burial plans. I was barred from the funeral...calling hours due to being somewhat close to him....this never mad sense to be but years later a family member told me there was a fear I would've blown the coverup...protested it...and that some thought of me as an enabler as we would get together on weekends to drink beer, play video games, and watch movies. In Maura's case this maybe why her parents have been so dodgy...I don't think her father wanted her dead
This guy is so much more credible than the guy from the last episode, lol. Its like night and day.
God I hope so. I just started listening. The other guy was terrible. In fact the two hosts of this podcast are too. I'm hoping this eventually gets better.
Already I'm not impressed simply from his statement that these guys do a great job especially at separating fact from speculation. I think they've actually done a horrible job of that. And for this guy to think otherwise I already have lost respect and have my guard up. But I will try to give him a chance
Renner’s blog has been removed… such a bummer.
I don't know if this has been brought up...and forgive me if I'm just repeating what someone else has said...but in the pictures of the car after the crash there is damage to the driver's side. That means she would have had to hit something on her left while driving. I don't know if that information has been clarified or not? Also, I don't know when the pictures were taken, but there doesn't seem to be any snow around in the pictures.
I think they alluded to it on a different episode where they said that there was damage to her car that couldn't be accounted for in the accident involving the tree and the snowbank....but they didn't really go into it other than mentioning it.
Enough with Fred Murray!! We get it, you guys don't like him....Anytime he is mentioned on this podcast there is always some snicker remark to always bring it back to some way make to him this other person...Regardless if he was aware of Maura being distraught which he obviously was and even if he feared in the beginning that she was suicidal and then changed it to a local dirtbag took her....So what? His daughter has disappeared!!!!! He was found on private property wandering around?....Yah looking for Maura! What about the fact that some people in the area would not even let police search there yards. I could only imagine how frustrated and desperate I would be to find my daughter. If you have any children then you can only imagine the horror...Get over bashing Fred Murray!!
only on ep 6 but if there was a snowbank, I'm assuming there was snow on the ground. did anyone ever search for footprints?
GiGi T episode 30 something. . the Witness A ' one , talks alot about the foot pri ts
In the Disappeared episode, Fred specifically said Maura wasn't familiar with this 112 area...Clint contradicts this with his assertion that they had hiked in October in the very area?
I'm a little late to this episode, but I don't feel like the Tylenol PM is relevant if she was going to commit suicide. I take an offbrand version of Tylenol, and when I researched it, I found that a lot of people attempt suicide with it because they think it'll make them pass out and they won't feel anything. This isn't true, and Maura probably would've known this since she was a nursing student. If she really was going to commit suicide via the Diphenhydramine in the Tylenol, she could've just purchased Benadryl, which I would think would have a higher chance of being successful (although Diphenhydramine poisoning itself takes up to 18 hours to kill a person, which she also would've probably known. That would mean up to 18 hours of someone potentially finding her and saving her. It's just a stupid way of doing it [anyway of committing suicide is bad, but I'm just saying that considering how intelligent she was, and her being in nursing school, she would've had knowledge of how commit suicide in a way that would be more likely to be "successful"])
Even if she just wanted to take a couple and drink a bunch of alcohol and cause a crash, that's just statistically unlikely. Women commit suicide using methods that will leave less of a mess to clean up. If she went through the trouble of packing all of her things so her family wouldn't have to do it, then why would she commit suicide by car crash. Car crashes are messy, plus it would most likely give her dad/family even more things to deal with regarding insurance, along with the insurance of the last car she crashed.
Also car crash suicide wouldn't be guaranteed...obviously.
Interestingly just last week a 10 year study was published in medical journal about acetaminophen being responsible for bad decision making in young adults
Do you think the mystery surrounding Maura will ever be solved?
Excellent information.
GREAT STUFF,TY!
No you do not know which phonecall/event/whatever upset her. You know the chronological order of the phonecalls. That’s it.
While you may b right, the 12midnight call was really the catalyst for her being upset- or that it was related to the hitnrun of PM, I'm not convinced that the 10pm call w/ her sister was NOT what upset her- either. As a female who was once an emotional young woman- it CAN take time for a conversation to slowly build on a person and lead to an hour or two later breakdown. Perhaps it did not hit Maura during that call w/ her sister but worked on her for hours leading to an hours later breakdown.
Agreed. They need a female on the show/panel for perspective.
+Caz Jones they got one on episode 21! Yeah!!
+Cate Ellington Have to go with what is known and try and stay away from playing the speculation game (male or female really shouldn't matter). Maura had a phone call at 12:07 a.m. which fits more in-line of when she broke-down at work. Maura's sister has consistently swore through out the years that her phone call with Maura was very routine and she absolutely cannot come up with anything from it that would've led to Maura becoming upset. Those are the parameters we have to work with, throwing in speculation or what if's really will not be able to help bring any clarity. The question I have always had from that breakdown is why hasn't anyone from Maura's family or the police (publically) ever mentioned her 12:07 a.m. phone call with Billy? Maura's cell phone records for that night were never meant to be seen by the public, if the family knew ahead of time that the public would accidently be able to get a hold of them for that night (thanks to the disappeared episode) then I am certain, they would've addressed her phone call with billy ahead of time to explain it away like they do so many times with so many other things. Once again, I believe IMO, that there is deception (spin) being brought into this case and the question is ... WHY?
+Clint Harting I appreciate your perspective you are brining a level headed approach and I like how you bring things back to the verifiable facts and clearly state when you are speculating. I am new to this case so if my following questions have already been answered later on I apologize. The Phone call/break down event. Around 12:45 am to about 1:00 am the Supervisor was notified that Maura was in distress. What were the particulars of who or why Maura was reported in distress? Did the Supervisor just walk up on her as a routine check and found he?r Did someone go to another dorm and report Maura wasn't responding etc? During the breakdown when Maura said “My sister” was it possible that Maura was referring to a friend or a woman other than her sister? Like a Sorority members do? Was she in a Sorority? Perhaps a friend walked into the dorm and told Maura that female teammate from a running team had been raped/robbed/mugged/died? Could here Boy Friend who was in the military maybe tell her about a friend she was close too from her days in Westpoint was being deployed or killed in Iraq?
+Chris Davis Hey Chris! Maura was crying at the security desk and word got back to her supervisor through walkie talkie traffic to go check on her. Maura's supervisor was responsible for several dorm monitors and so the supervisor went to check on Maura at the request of the supervisor's boss. It is unknown what Maura meant by saying "My Sister", she was unresponsive and crying after saying that. The supervisor made an attempt to get Maura to fill her in on what was wrong, but Maura didn't answer. Maura had to be physically prodded to leave the desk area and led out of the dorm she was working at. She just sat there and would not go even though she had been relieved of her duties. The supervisor actually had to go and pack up Maura's school backpack for her and start to walk out the door just to get Maura to follow.
So this first responder arrives at 7:29pm, only 2 mins after Pat Westman makes the 911 call at 7:27pm? She barely had time to hang the phone up. I would imagine after making a 911 call about an accident pretty much across from my house I would continue to look out my window. Also if some one responded that quickly, why would Butch Atwood have to call it in at 7:43pm? Who was the first to arrive? Cecil Smith of HPD? John Monaghan the State Trooper? EMS? Pretty quick response? So within a possible 2 mins time Maura is gone? Yet the Westman's did not see anything? No one else finds this WEIRD...
+Linus Zims a lot of people get the timeline wrong. So I will post it here.7:27 p.m. --- Faith Westman Calls 9117:29 p.m. --- Officer Cecil Smith dispatched7:43 p.m. ---- Hanover 911 advises Grafton Co. 911 that the Atwoods are trying to get a hold of them (their line was tied up)7:46 p.m. --- Officer Cecil Smith arrives to the scene7:56 p.m. --- EMS Arrives7:57 p.m. -- Fire Arrives8:02 p.m. ---- EMS leaves the sceneAt some point Lavoies Auto Care and Tow is called to come pickup the car8:49 p.m. --- Fire leaves the scene9:26 p.m. ---- Scene officially cleared by Officer Smith who departs.
+Clint Harting I am well aware of the facts in this case and as a fellow person who wants to find any clues to Maura's disappearance , I only wrote about the timing because knowing all the facts that I have read and looked up in the past 11 plus years that I was aware of, I never knew of someone showing up at 7:29pm. So it seemed odd when I heard your interview on here you said at 45:23 on the podcast "The main guy, the first responder that showed up, he was on scene well passed everybody else. He cleared the scene at 9:26pm. So that's, he was on scene after arriving at 7:29pm"... Key part of your quote "after arriving at 7:29pm". Maybe you never meant to say that , but if you listen back that is what you said. I am well aware of all of the other times as they are public knowledge and have been trying to find any missing pieces to this case since I first read it in my local newspaper in 2004. I also thought that it was never and has never been made public knowledge who arrived first between the State Trooper John Monaghan or Cecil Smith. I guess that is why I always assumed it was John Monaghan, because his police report has never been made public like Cecil's. Please also know that I thought your interview was helpful and I do believe that you truly are trying to find answers too.
+Linus Zims yes that was a mis-statement by myself. Most likely I was glancing at my notes and got ahead of myself as I Was talking with Lance and Tim
+Linus Zims the state trooper won't have a report or any record of himself being on the scene because he was off-duty at the time he showed up.
+Clint Harting Even so, there has to be some sort of documentation of him arriving and when. How did he happen to hear about it if he is off duty? his scanner? was he just driving by? These are questions that so many have. Off duty or not, there has never been a clear answer if was or was not the first officer to arrive.(off duty or not). Also was he in his own personal vehicle or his patrol car when he arrived?
.. hi all, im not so much into crime as more a kind of a Kidnap/mysterious dissap. geek ever since hearing of Jaycee dugards case yrs bk.
I been listening this podcast for a few days and have become completely fascinated with it and developed a genuine interest in finding the truth of what happened to this poor young woman. So many possibilities, anyway these guys are doing an excellent job so much information there sifting through. and it does seem totally feasible and even very likely she did hit that young boy and was scared to death and it only added to her stressors at the time which would totally explain her wanting to leave town and go start a new somewhere or at least get away and decompress/clear her mind. Keep all avenues of possibility Open in mind, an the truth shall set free.
dailycollegian.com/2004/02/09/umass-student-found-unconscious-in-the-road-police-unsure-whether-accident-was-a-hit-and-run/
Billy’s mother stated in an interview in the Missing broadcast that their family had given Maura a AAA membership bc her car was so unreliable. What I find questionable is if her dad brought $4k w him to buy a car and they went car shopping, why didn’t they buy one that day?
If she left campus intending to harm herself then why would she take her textbooks and workout clothes ?
I'm not sure what to think about the textbooks - just in case or something? But people keep talking about her having work-out clothes in the car and I don't hear mention of other clothes. If she's anything like me, she could just wear comfortable "work-out clothes" all of the time even when not intending to work-out?
Yes we have actually heard and talked about the phonecall with Bill.
Didn’t know the self-harm statement was made by Fred Murray or I forgot it. ‘Not Without Peril’ being in the car indicates a possible clue in that direction but not necessarily.
clint knows the score.
2021 and still not solved,..
Although I disagree with much of these podcast and even though I haven't gotten far enough in this one yet to hear their theories the first time I heard about the hit and run something jumped out at me. And even now it's the only answer to the why she would want to run away or disappear. Othet than that she's gotten out scott-free from everything else she did. Nothing in her past would really, truly, or permanently effect her future. A hit and run though that would. However, she would have been at work or on break anyway so she was sober seemingly. In that case it's an accident. It wouldn't be criminal maybe some traffic violations worst would be any civil responsibility. She may have even though she killed him which would up the steaks for sure but I still think as long as she was sober would cause any criminal again just violations and civil lawsuits that she would have a good change of winning by simply saying he crossed in front of me it was his fault unless they could prove she was doing something reckless like speeding which also is possible given the severe injuries but being hit at just the right angle or landing at the right angle could potentionally cause those injuries. I've never heard what law enforcement speculate to have happened during that hit and run for example speed.
Something is really off w this case. Whoever was at the site knows something. Fred always said she was NOT suicidal.
Fred Murray said one time I don't know if you can Google this it's on one of the RUclips podcast I don't know which one I don't have the link but anyway Fred Mary said one time that she probably did the squaw walk into the woods, he described the sqaw walk being in the book not without peril, the sqaw walk is about how the old Indians used to walk into the wildernessand walk as far out as possible so that they could not come back and they would die out there, has anybody heard about this?when she first was missing that first-year Fred Murray said himself that she probably did this then he changes his mind and says that she would never commit suicide, I think he went into denial
@@Godsmightywarrior1964 yes, what I read was that when the Murray family first realized Maura was missing he said he was worried that’s what she had done.
17:00
But considering how bad a driver Maura seems to have been, the speculation can definitely be made ;-).
I know that was not nice to say but I just had to come out with it ;-)
Tobias Piechowiak , Very bad driver
Was she part Asian or something?
Ok so clearly it wasn’t the phone call with the sister that upset her...very interesting.
Also from Southern IL here :)
the two interview shows were great. How much of the alcohol and Tylenol PM was left in her car? Did she take her cell phone? I tend to lean toward her walking away to start a new life. I think she probably was involved in the Patriet Bassey accident, and panicked and left. If it were suicide, I think they probably would have found a body and if she left booze and tylenol in the car, then her "instruments of suicide" were left behind.
+Ts0usermax was any of the other alcohol that she purchased found in the car? It seems like if she had walked away to do harm to yourself, they would have seen tracks in the snow and she probably wouldn't have gotten that far that quickly. The fact that she basically was gone in a matter of minutes and the fact that the dogs hit on an area that seem to end at the road leads me to believe that she got in a car. However, I don't think it was a local dirt bag because she wouldn't go with the bus driver so why would she then get in a car with somebody that she didn't know?
Maura purchased four bottles of alcohol at the liquor store to start the trip. Two were still in the car when police arrived, indicating she took two with her. Even if a Tylenol bottle was found in the car it doesn't mean she didn't have other drugs in her pockets or backpack. She was a nursing student. Also, her "instrument of suicide" was all around her. Staying out that cold February night would have caused hypothermia and death.
The Tylenol PM, was it a full bottle? How many were missing? I take it all the time, literally, all the time and I have a major tolerance for it.
everyone has tylenol PM....just not usually in the car hehe
@@Scorch428 hehe
When she stopped or braked when she hit him I wonder if it left tire tracks that maybe they can match up with her tires?? Wasn't there any witnesses around when he was hit?
Just a couple weeks ago I saw on local texhoma new a whitcha falls woman who crashed her car in what police thought was suicide by car wreck afterward when her mom had retrieved the vehicle there was a real-time GPS tracking device hid up in the undercarrige..suicide by car wreck is ridiculous
The idea of a local dirt bag is problematic because it requires some nefarious fiend happening upon her by chance not stalking and hunting her down possible I guess, but seems unlikely.
It requires two BIG coincidences, too. 1. that one of the next few ppl to pass her was a sicko felony criminal
and 2. That all her stresses and things previously in her life that pointed to suicide are completely irrelevant.
At first, I thought it was foul play, too, but as I heard the details, I believe it to be suicide.
But I also believe it to be suicide for good reason...I think she may have been involved in that hit and run, which explains a lot.
Unless she went into a bar where the creeps hang out - she must have had to use a restroom along the way and she did like to drink, so some theories say she may have gone into the bar, some local dirtbags there saw here, talked her into taking the road that had no cell, knew she would break down, stalked her there, she trusted them because she had hung out with them at the bar, got in the car, got raped and killed in a cabin.
After listening to this podcast, I am wondering if they knew she hit Vasi or at least her dad, but then again if she hit Vasi and her dad know about it,I don't think he'd be looking all over the place for her and he has been looking all over the place for her when the investigation first started and even into 15 years 10 years later,she might have hit vasi and not told anybody about it and that was the last straw for hershe might have gone into the White mountains to commit suicide but why was a backpack and clothes never found
The backpack and clothes are still with her and that's why they haven't been found.
I agree..maura is not alive she would be found..unfortunately I think she's for sure dead
I think it's allways interesting when someone retaces one's steps or drive and tries to put themselves in the missing person's mind set and try to recreate the incident and see what clues or revelations might come from this..I'd like to see a realy good recreation with a crappy car..a girl her age that can get in her mindset..take the same rout at the same time of day on same month same day of week..make the same stops..see what all if anything can be gleamed from this
tylanol pm doesnt mean ANYTHING! Im a light sleeper and i take advil pm to sleep the night w-out waking up periodically
Sean Stewart but you dont take it in high amounts with Alcohol which can kill your liver. which people have died from ,
@@lostlanaya8927 Tylenol can indeed cause liver failure and thus eventual death, but you have to either be taking large doses on a regular basis for an extended period of time, or a single massive dose, which for someone Maura's size and health would likely be in excess of 100 tablets even with the alcohol, and consuming that many pills without throwing up would be a feat unto itself, especially if one were drinking. If she were suicidal, taking a Tylenol overdose is one of the most painful, slow, and horrible ways to go.
It's possible she could take the Tylenol PM on a regular basis for help sleeping or as somewhat of a "buzz" due to the diphenhydramine (the PM part) but this is just Benadryl and there is no recreational use for acetaminophen itself so using Tylenol PM instead of just plain Benadryl doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus she is going to college and something of a party girl, I think if she wanted some type of sedative for recreational or suicidal purposes, she could find something better than OTC antihistamines. So while it's possible she could have suffered chronic liver damage from taking large doses on a regular basis, this is something you typically see with something like Percocet, where the person is taking the drug for the narcotic portion and the Tylenol portion is incidental and ends up damaging the liver.
I think it is important for police to investigate the hit and run. If they find out what happened there it could help this case or it won't help it at all but at least that case would be solved which should be just as important. Kind of crazy his case isn't solved either and no one cares. And if Maura did hit him omg she got very lucky. It almost makes makes me think she was involved because it seems she's gotten very lucky with so many things and this was just another one.
Tylenol pm don't give you a buzz, they just make you kinda tired. So she wasn't abusing them for the kicks.
@ Tony Baker - We are not convinced of any outcome, we're trying to look at all possibilities.
Do yourselves a favor: stop associating with James renner.
What's wrong with James Renner?
Music Teacher Guy What ISN'T wrong with James Renner? The guy has allowed his crazy theories with no evidence to take control of the narrative. He accuses anyone who does not want to speak with him as having something to hide and he could have very well accused some innocent people of heinous things. Also, he has to make everything all about himself. I think he's into the Maura Murray case for his own ego, not for Maura and her family. The guy is a fool.
Missing Maura Murray there's a girl I worked with in Michigan who resembles maura a lot. Same teeth, eye color, nose, as soon as I saw this story i said wow she looks so much like this person. Here is her Twitter mobile.twitter.com/purplerose315
@@DocLogic123 Well is she 37 or 38? :P
How far is Littleton to where Maura went missing? Were the human remains ever identified?
Not sure
How is the damage on the drivers side if she was headed east and flipped around, facing west in the eastbound lane. Wouldn't she have veered to the right and flipped around left and the damage would be on the passenger's side?
If we are to believe the description of the crash, she spun out, so there’s no telling what side of the car hits whatever it hits.
It sure sounds like she could have been involved in a hit and run.
Hit and run ception!
I mean after the accident, she had two choices: use her phone to call someone or get picked up by a stranger/walk to a strangers house.
Wouldnt they know if she used her phone?
She couldn’t use her phone after the accident because there was no cell service in that area.
What if she planned on drinking herself to death?
with a bottle of kalua and a box of wine? Not likely , rofl
so MAURA was the one who put the rag in her tailpipe to try and kill herself??
or did Fred bring that up? I had thought Fred brought that up and knew about it
16:30
What is that accident they refer to?! It's the first time that I hear that case in connection with Maura.
So they speculate that she was involved in a hit-and-run and had to get away??
Petrit Vasi was struck by a hit-and-run driver less than a mile from Maura at a time when she may have been taking a break on her job. Later that night Maura had her nervous breakdown at work. Early news reports said that Vasi was in critical condition and not expected to live. After many months, Vasi recovered but could not remember the accident.
think his explanation re. the potential accident sounds really consistent. They would have to "clean" up after her. And the timeframe fits nicely. Hmmm.... 2 months coma, that also sounds like a violent accident...
, its Quite possible Maura "accidentally " hit the young man Vasi, Run off and freaked out as she may have just almost committed vehicular manslaughter, further adding to her stressors
What if she just found out she was pregnant,and that was why she was distracted when driving?Maybe during her break she took a pregnancy test
Or the phone call was her test results? That could be why she went into shock and had to be escorted to her car ?
Why haven't the police solved the hit and run? It happened in a well travelled place.
they lost months of investigation time whle dude was in a coma
and 04 wasnt like today...theyre werent security cameras litterally everywhere. Today you can track a car across a state lol. Back in 2004 that kinda stuff was just starting.
My very thought! The father took out all that money so that she could disappear because of the hit and run. - speculation mode
FYI: I know somebody that was killed car surfing.
A great podcast. I agree with Clint, her intentions were suicidal, was too intoxicated to reach where she was going, and crashed. The bus driver's story, could well be true, she did refuse his help. However sniffer dogs tracked her scent 100 yards from the car, and then lost the scent, not into the woods, but along the road. Makes me wonder if after the bus drove off, she had a change of mind, and ran 100 yards after the bus, and was picked up by the driver. I assume dogs were used inside his bus, and at his home?
+Billy No Mates The one trail-scent dog that was used (it was forecasted ahead of time) was only going to be able to pull a scent for 100-yards or so. The dog lost the scent right at an intersection (Rt. 112 - Bradley Hill Rd) Because of the time of the year (Cold weather), cross-winds ( a biggie) and time that had passed since Maura went missing, the dog losing her scent where it lost it, was not a surprise and not a good indicator of what happened to Maura after that.But with that said, it would make sense that Maura received a ride from someone passing by to help. The road was clear that night, so her footprints would not be seen if she stayed close to the road, so she could've left on foot and made it further east before darting off a path to avoid being seen, if that is what she wanted to do.The only pure fact from the intial dog search is that the dog did pick up Maura's scent right at her car. There were footprints from Maura in the snowbank her car was stuck in and the dog did head east tracking Maura's scent before the scent particles disappeared or were scattered to much (about 100-yards away from Maura's carClint Harting
+Clint Harting Have you published a timeline anywhere? I'd love to read more of the details that you've uncovered!
+Paula Narva No I haven't published a timeline. I am assuming you mean that of the car accident. I just use the information that is known mostly. I do feel like I have a pretty strong grasp on the factual information concerning this case and that is mostly how I try and help, by sticking to known factual information versus trying to solve the case per se.
The first guy to say he wants to help the family and feels bad for Fred in this podcast and you guys immediately interject with yeah well people say Fred'a a liar.
Do you guys hate this family or something? Trust me I am only here for the facts and interviews I dont want to hear you mud slinging crappy theories.
Wouldn't someone have to be sitting in the passenger seat for airbag to go off. My airbags on passenger seat are off unless there is weight in seat. And why would she withdrawal the money if she was gonna commit suicide. I don't believe the suicide theory.
Would have to look up the information on her year, make and model. She didn’t commit suicide I think she was trying to avoid trouble with the cops I don’t know if she had a cell phone to call her dad but maybe she even wanted to avoid that too. It’s really bizarre I just can’t wrap my mind around it. This case, Brandon Lawson and Swanson are cases that annoy the living hell out of me. So crazy that people can disappear by themselves to a point that intensive searches cannot even find them. Like wtf happened!!
The alcohol and the money from her account, her stuff, and pushing a car thats in bad shape to its limits all make it sound like she was desperate to get away and party for awhile..I think with a guy or small group and didn't make it..I think she may very well have thought someone, a guy, would be wear she's going and could maybe be able to help with her car while she's there...she was on a mission to get somewhere and to somebody
My opinion is somewhere but no somebody.
49:00
But that means, that he knew what she was up to
Is it possible that Mora struck the person and has since gone MIA as a hit and run. Im going with this possibility over all other theories
This is 💯 one of the best podcasts everything he says is what I believe happened to Maura and the Hit and run and Fred showing up that Sat with 4,000 dollars most likely to fix the Saturn...I feel that Maura was going to ditch the Saturn in the woods far up in New Hampshire and there was a tandem driver most likely Kathleen..was to pick her up or met her somewhere but Maura came into contact with New Hampshire 's finest....And her demise...
I can see this happening. The red truck that was seen in the area believed to have MA plates fits in this scenario. Kathleen's husband drove a red truck. If I remember correctly Maura also called a body shop the day after the Vasi hit too.
I wonder if Maura had a connection to frogs? Did she like them? I drove by there, took a picture that was aimed at the sky and saw a cloud that looked like a flying frog. Initially I thought it looked like a bird carrying someone away. I took this to symbolize that she was taken away by someone.
Clearly it means she was taken away by a giant flying frog. 🥴🙄
I feel like she was wanting to dip out and party and forget her troubles for awhile and some predator sensed this volunerability like predators do and things went bad for her..I think there's a chance she called either someone from the area or someone where she was going and who knows who heard her plight and where she was on the other end of the phonecall..no telling how many calls she made or who was listening on the other side..I can't shake the feeling she was predated and this is very much predator activity..the fact there's no real wittness and no body found says professional to me..I wouldn't be superised at all if some day the figure this out and it was a serial killer..