I don't think you guys should be judging how a man who has a missing daughter should act. You do not know what it feels like and you need to respect his position in this. For him it's not some fun mystery to solve. It's his daughter and it's his reality. It's not unusual at all to me for him to distance himself from Renner and the similar.
I personally think the only way to read these letters as 'strange, odd suspicious' is to go IN to reading them with the mindset of being suspicious of Fred already. Just my humble opinion I see nothing suspicious. In fact it's completely in line w/ grief and anger and a need to blame someone. Anyone
nothing suspicious about those letters, in fact they have cleared any doubt in my mind if freds involvement in her disappearance. i do believe she hit that man with her car(so obvious, with the timelines and her highly emotional behaviour that night, she thought she had just killed someone with her car) I think fred was helping her cover up that hit and run. he gave her money not to disappear forever but enough for her to get out of town and wait for the heat of the hit and run to cool down. she was so distraught with what she had done, causing her to drown her sorrows on her way to "get away" for a few days. slippery roads and alcohol caused her accident. that is where it gets iffy. i think she was so overwhelmed with all the shit in her life that had previously gone down and now another accident, she ran. realizing how cold it was getting and she was to out of it to go at it alone anymore she stuck out her thumb or someone just happened to stop and pick her up and that is how she met her demise. or she ran and ran, couldn't find a safe haven and died of exposure. mind you, I am new to this case and only on episode 8, so my theory may change. one thing i am sure about, she hit that man with her car. too many coincidences from that night add up.
+Rayna Clarke When I first started researching this case, I truly believed she had been murdered by someone, but have since changed my mind. The fact that there was a bottle of Tylenol PM in the car, coupled with the amount of alcohol she had brought with her and the frantic behavior of her father when told of her disappearance (he knew why she went up there), makes me firmly believe she was going to drive into the white mountains to some remote area and end her life. Now, obviously, things didn't turn out how she had hoped, so she hightailed it down the highway and was actually seen 4 or 5 miles away by a passing motorist, who didn't report it for at least several days. She more than likely died of exposure, running on foot into the white mountains. The odds of her encountering a killer are 1 in millions.
+joydivsion77 this aspect is very similar to the Lee cutler case. he has never been found either. I don't think she went out there to necessarily kill herself. I think she was definitely depressed. I think that final accident sent her into an unplanning frenzy of running around, trying to avoid being arrested in the wilderness. I think there should be search efforts and a lot of them. I'd like info on that. I think they should start from the place she was spotted 5 miles from the crash scene. I am a daily runner (8 miles) and 5 miles is nothing for an active person, especially who is scared out of her mind. I wouldn't be suprised if she is 20 miles or more away.
Rayna Clarke I'm interested in this theory. Why do you think the father hasn't come forward to say this is what happened if she could of come into some harm?
What I got from the letters Fred Murray wrote to the governor's is plain and simple, a dad trying to get answers about his daughter's disappearance.... No need to pick it all apart and make anything else out of it then what it is. A plea for help in the case. No one else see's that? WOW!
+Linus Zims I agree entirely! Just because the man writes intelligently and articulately is not suspicious in and of itself so to start off by describing it as "overly wordy",for example,seems to me to be to be like an attempt at "firestarting",as it were.
Linus Zims if he wanted answers why didn't he help after the very beginning until two years later w/ lawyers... that's why so many ppl question everything about him in my opinion
I know.This is really making me angry.These people with all their "theories".None of this speculation is going to bring her back.I hope they dig up that basement soon and find out if she's there.
Yeah, I love learning and thinking about this case and others but I think some people really take it overboard when it comes to certain details they analyze and the excessive significance that seems to be given to things that are pretty straightforward. The letters seem to mean exactly what they mean. For example he is clearly saying that the FBI should be involved because they can move around the jurisdictional hurdles that come with a multi-state, multi-county case. The Connecticut River physically divides Vermont and New Hampshire. I don't think the mention of it is some subtle nod to a serial killer.
I don't believe Fred or any of Maura's friends and family were involved. I feel especially bad for Fred because his daughter is missing and there is the torture of not knowing what happened to her. Couple that with people who are speculating he was involved with his daughter's disappearance must be pure hell.
I don't think that Fred not talking to people about Maura anymore has anything to do with him having "dismissed" her. He talked before about her (like on disappeared) and maybe he just feels like he has nothing more to add to it and he is just heartbroken and not able to talk about this anymore. Everybody deals differently in such situations. Also, I think that he is constantly getting harrassed by SO MANY people who want him to talk about Maura (since this case is so famous). I totally understand that he wouldn't want to talk and don't think that is suspicious or anything like that.
You guys second guess him because he waited a few months before writing the letter? How do you know what you would do as a parent of a missing child? You don't. And you have to remark that he sounds like a "regular guy" in some parts? He is a regular guy!
I really don't think his letter is odd at all! I think he is very angry and wants to be as articulate\descriptive as possible to get his message across. Maybe to produce an emotional response from the reader. He is a dad and he wants to get help to find his daughter. Boil everything down in this letter and the meaning is - You guys didn't do enough, you guys are still not doing enough even though other resources are available, take this seriously and help find my daughter. Why do you see this as a legitimate lead?
You guys just do not get it. He does not care what "trolls" think or say. You cannot hurt a parent beyond the hurt of losing a child. The pain he has suffered makes your meaningless judgments insignificant to him.
+Cate Ellington agreed. Generation Why had an episode with a guest whose son got lost on a mountain and he didn't want to declare him dead just in case his son was alive- he wanted his son to see that he was still looking and still hoping. He didn't want his son to look up his family and see that his disappearance had been labeled case closed and apparently everyone has happily moved on. Unfortunately his son's remains were eventually found on the mountain, but knowing his reasoning dispels any concerns about the Murrays not declaring Maura dead.
I know i am late to the party but these guys are flip flopping the terms sociopath and psychopath. Its really all psychopaths are sociopaths, but not all sociopaths are psychopaths " not the way they stated it.... which is kind of an important distinction
No disrespect guys, I appreciate what you're doing for the Maura Murray case, but respectfully, a sociopath is someone with antisocial personality disorder, which by definition, is someone who exhibits antisocial behavior, which DOES include lack of empathy as one of the determining factors, but there are a myriad of other traits, namely a complete disregard for the rights and welfare of other people, lacking a sense of conscience, and a sense of invincibility to the rules, laws, and norms that govern normal human behavior. Simply lacking empathy does not equal sociopath.
I don't think the letters are "weird" at all. They're simply a plea for help, but happen to be really well-written. He just wanted to make points that are bold and compelling enough to hopefully invoke a response. I think you guys are reading way too much into them. He's apparently just a really good letter writer! This is not to say that his behavior isn't questionable, but I don't find these letters all that fascinating. I'm glad you shared them though.
Lack of empathy is only one characteristic of a sociopathic personality. It's much more complex than just that. You can also lack empathy and not be a sociopath.
+Bianca Armendy What bothers me the most about James Renner is the fact that he is all too ready to disparage the people connected to the cases he interjects himself into. He calls Maura a sociopath, yet is not himself qualified to do so. He goes past mere insinuation that Fred Murray must be hiding something if he refuses to talk to hack journalists, like himself. I see more sociopathic tendencies in Renner than I do in Maura Murray. Renner has a bullying attitude that is very unprofessional and represents the worst kind of tabloid journalism. In fact, "tabloid journalism" best describes the kind of work Renner does.
+Jamie McCrea I've been following missing person and other true crime cases for years and never have I seen anyone so willing to insult the memory of the victim or disparage the victim's families so readily as James Renner is.
As a studying nurse, if you don't have empathy your teachers are going to notice and it's going to be a massive problem for them, until her teachers report a lack of empathy, I'm not even so sure she is incapable of it or is just a young girl who is immature and self-involved, I'm 21 and I see this as quite common
wait wait wait, let me get this straight- we're trolls if we dispute the validity of your/Renner's baseless claims and unfounded suspicions, but Renner is totally justified in calling a woman he never knew a sociopath? Wow.
It's clear to me that fred is both an intelligent alpha and a grieving father and the letters are telling in regards to his ability to demand his daughters rights as a citizen as well as his anger is one direction and clear avoidence towards the direction of others. Whether there was good work done in the beginning or not and whether maura left this world voluntarily or was abducted in his opinion or not, she is still not here dead or alive to reveal what happened so this letter to me makes perfect sense. Obviously there has been help from the public that fred doesn't seem to be embracing but it seems to be the help that also puts him in a questionable light in the process. That tells me as a layperson that deep down he may know at the end of the day that she may very well be passed by her own choosing and he just doesn't want his family and her name tarnished in the process. He still wants to bury his daughter. Hope I've made sense
To reference the last comment the last comment what are the odds of a series killer coming upon her are extremely low, however the odds of every possible scenario you can come up with is extremely low. Look at it this way. The odds of winning the lottery are almost nothing but somebody wins it every week. After listening to now 8 of the podcasts and watching the oxygen documentary I think she met with foul play. I think James Renner is a pos and if I ever meet him I would tell him to his face. Mr Murray is a broken man and people like him only make matters worse with his complete and utter nonsense with nothing backing it up. HE IS THE SOCIOPATH.
A bit late to this discussion.....I don’t see anything unusual, weird or any red flags in the letter. I think Fred either thoughtfully wrote the letter & researched a few facts or was assisted by a lawyer or someone with legal knowledge. There appears to be some ‘legal speak’ in there. Fred may be a parent but his letters are to an ‘official’ person and the tone has to combine his personal parental message as well as be appropriate for the recipient, in this case it’s going to formal in language used. Perfectly acceptable.
I don't think the FBI assigned a team to this case and were turned away by Troop F. More likely in my mind is that the FBI reached out to Troop F saying "We're able to offer you guys help if you want it" and Troop F declined that offer.
This is mind boggling to say the least, everyone can speculate but the truth is no one knows for sure what happened the night of her disappearance. So many accounts of what happened leading up to that night it's getting freaking crazyyyy!
Regarding Renner's sociopath comment, we have to remember a major fact: It seems in those last days before Maura disappeared, she appeared to be lying to EVERYONE. To her employer about the phone call. To the school about a family member dying. And then the ultimate kicker: She even lied to the bus driver when he tried to help her that night, telling him she called AAA when actually she didn't. Lying and misleading people was a common behavior of hers. THAT is the absolute definition of sociopath--so I support Renner's assertion. And none of this even mentions using a person's credit card and the theft she committed as a cadet. But, there's something else regarding the lying. If she lied to all those people I mentioned, then it is ABSOLUTELY probable that she lied to her family--mainly her father--in the days leading up to her disappearance. I mean, do we really believe she was lying to everyone else in her life, but was honest with her dad? That seems like a stretch. Could it be she lied to father about something happening, and that's the reason he got all that money? Then, once he gave her that money, she disappeared. Meaning: Her father was getting her "get away" money without even realizing it. Given Maura's tendencies, that is easy to believe--she manipulated every person she knew, seemingly. The whole thing about Maura's disappearance is, knowing her the way we've all come to know her, it's within her behavior to stage a car wreck as a way to make it look like an accident. Then, make it appear as if somebody abducted her afterwards. Sure, the temperature was 12 degrees. But we don't know what clothes she had in the car. She could've used her dad's money to buy survival gear--we'd never know because she would've used cash. Maura could've faked being drunk when the bus driver came upon her. Then, once he left, she puts on the heavy clothes and takes off into the woods. It could be we've all looked at what Maura did in those days before she disappeared a bit too naively. We've been taking Maura "at her word" regarding her behavior. Maybe it was part of an elaborate scheme by a person who seemed to have scheming down pretty well. Why take the call to that resort so seriously and honestly when we all know she was lying to everyone in her life? Doesn't it make more sense to doubt the sincerity of that call given what else Maura was saying to people in her life? I think it does. And it could be, listening to Fred's letters, that, at first, Fred thought it was an abduction. But maybe, after he had a chance to assess everything in the case--because he's probably found out a lot about his daughter that he didn't know, just like we all have, he could've had a light bulb go off in his head one night, sat up in bed and said, "Holy crap, that money I gave her was for her to disappear. She fooled me like she did everybody else in her life." And that would definitely explain his unwillingness to grant any interviews because he feels like a fool. Just some thoughts.
+Amanda W Amanda, I have no problem with what you wrote as long as you can sit there and say you've never called someone a "moron", "idiot" or "imbecile". Because they're medical terms, too.
+Amanda W You've read Renner's book already? It's not even published yet. How dare you diagnose his book as being un-interesting before actually meeting, uh, reading it . . . Go ahead, I"ll give you the last word.
+Ed Dentzel in this podcast I think they mixed up the terms sociopath and psychopath. A sociopath is basically a person with no conscience. they don't feel bad if they hurt you to no matter what degree. they only feel bad if they themselves get hurt. such people live out there and are encountered every day like someone who steals your parking space as you are backing into it. (that happened to me once and the guy gave me the finger as he walked away) The guy who won the first season of Survivor and then refused to pay the taxes on his winnings is the most obvious sociopath I have seen on TV. A psychopath is a much rarer steroid version of a sociopath. Recently there does seem to be a trend to merge these two terms but traditionally the psychopath has violent tendencies or is much less able to at least appear to conform with societal norms.
I agree these are troubling things. But a young woman with depression, a lot of pressure and bulimia can lie for other reasons too. But yeah it seems like a lot of behavior associated w/ sociopathy. I forgot about the credit card thing.
Having been a police officer in a former life, I can say that after being dispatched to a crash scene, you gather measurements or eye ball it, you wait for the tow truck, sit there on scene and fill out the crash report... Sometimes milk the clock because staying there keeps you on the call and not available for other calls.... Not saying he did, but it happens. Hopefully he canvassed which I assume he did... Can't imagine he didn't at all..... Two hours sounds like a long time on a scene but it really isn't. On the flip side, it IS a good amount of time on a scene as a crash scene can often be wrapped up and you drive away in 15-20 min. All of this is not withstanding with a missing driver...... So...... The only person who can truthfully attest and account for the time is the officer himself and he has no duty to the public to divulge his every movement.
Fred has been really weird about his daughters case from day one. Why was he visiting that weekend? Where did the 4000 go n why did he withdraw it from eight ATMs? Why didn't he want a book about his daughter and why did her mom not even look for her??? James has most of the answers.
They posted it publicly to put pressure on governor to do something. If he truly doesn't know where she is. And parents of children go thru many stages of grief. Putting blame on others is extremely common.
So you will entertain the idea of paranormal activity but not the theory that the cop could have done something. Its at least worth looking into. He was there after the accident for 2 hours but from what I know nobody can tell what he was actually doing during that time...
Grief stricken broken parents I'm not surprised do contradictory things. Their life I'm sure Is an emotional roller coaster. Especially in first few years
Wow you 2 are clueless on addiction...of.course she would consider running with a bottle of alcohol.she obviously used alcohol regularly,..sounded like the early stages of substance abuse.
At this point if she was honestly missing and they had no idea where she was. Why would he not answer those few questions that are haunting people. Did she accidentally hit that man? Why did you suddenly want to get her a new car? What happened to that 3-4,000 dollars? Etc... at this point he will not be held responsible for aiding her with the hit and run. (If it was her). So why not just sit and try to join the people who are trying to help? Since the police aren't. I do not understand. I feel like I'd do anything I could take any opportunity for help if I was that frantic.
Mr Maury comes from a different era - an era in which people were taught and expected to use formal language when addressing authorities of any kind. My initial impression of this channel was rather good, but with your baseless aspersions of his character and intent, my positive impression has diminished somewhat. Is it a generational thing? Your conclusions are not reasonable, and your appraisal of Mr Murray hints at a frightening lack of human understanding and a dismal lack of objective logic. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "sociopath".
it is extremely hard to believe that fred is completely 'on the level', when he allows all this wild speculation to go on about him... You would think he would come out and set the record straight about all these questions.
It's possible he sees the police as the ones that are going to figure it out and sees the public as only getting in the way and is deciding not to give them the time of day
Why does he have to answer anyone's accusations?He just wants justice for his daughter!End of story.All of you need to get a life and take care of your own business.
I'm not sure how everything works but usually when outside forces come in to a small town and try to take over the case, they are met with much prejudice and skepticism- it's all about ego and it's bullshit. Hope that wasn't the case here.
with the lack of police action as stated by Fred Murray (I do think he knows more than he is telling) a cop could have something to do with her disappearance.
I love your podcasts, I think you guys have done a great job researching this case. I listened to all of them in one day. The only thing you guys haven't brought up that I would like to know more about is the voice mail that Maura's boyfriend had on his phone the morning after she disappeared that he said sounded like her crying or whimpering. I think that is a little strange if it is true.
I'm on pins and needles wanting to hear more...This definitely sucks you in. My heart goes out to her family...Part of you thinks she may have met foul play and the other part thinks she may of disappeared on her own. Or she was going to disappear and maybe got kidnapped !
Yes of course this letter sounds like a guilt trip of course! He wants the Governor to feel bad for him and enlist help to find his daughter. What are you two missing about everything that almost everyone else is able to see. Is this podcast purely for entertainment purposes because it doesn't sound like it's really to help the case.
When you were reading his first letter, it sounded like something I would write. I have written letters to government officials, and many people who are in an "authority" position. In my experience, I feel like using stronger language and wordiness represent a feeling of inadequacy and inferiority of the writer when speaking with authority figures, like a Governor. He sounds like someone who was very emotional and upset, and it sounds like someone who read it over and over and over again, and then at one point gave up on reading it, and just sent the letter.
Not to be that rude but after reading your comment it looks to me as if you attempted to use sesquipedalian words and more intricate sentences. "In my experience, using stronger....". Also, how would wordiness and the use of strong words represent inadequacy and inferiority of the writer to a person in authority (a word you seem to like because your thesaurus must be broken?). Shouldn't wordiness and stronger wording help the writer feel more equal to the Governor not inferior? I don't think the wording in this letter signifies or gives any insight into how many times he read it. I think at points his frustration towards specific agencies shows and he losses the professional edge he started with and emotion does get the best of him. I think that makes this letter that much better and it represents many of the stages of grief people go through and it does all of that in one simple letter. This letter definitely says a lot but nothing close to what the hosts of this podcast want to believe so they twist it for entertainment value. In my opinion, the truth behind this letter has more appeal than what they want to portray.
I have a degree in psychology and am currently working on my masters degree in marriage and family therapy. Having gone through some training in these fields I think my two cents is worth something on the sociopath debate. I think it is a complete stretch, given the material I have been privy to, to make a diagnosis of sociopath. When looking at her behavior in the months leading up to her disappearance she sounds like, for all intensive purposes, a normal college girl trying to find out where she fits in life. Borderline Personality disorder is something that might fit a little better. That being said profiling a person is one thing but to a certain degree making diagnosis from a far, not having known the person is some what ethically questionable. Early college years are a very trying time for some people and I think she was just trying to find her way...unfortunately that was cut very short.
Just found this and am binging. My issue is this: someone 'saw' a girl that matched her description 30 minutes after the crash 4 - 5 miles down the road. Which like they said is a pretty good running pace and possible. But then you add in the fact she (possibly) had a head injury AND was (possibly) intoxicated in well below freezing weather... no, just no.
EXACTLY!! When they said that "she was a runner, I guess she could've done that", I immediately thought that this guys are, at this point, just producing noise and non-sense.
Who says it was a serial killer? It only Hass to be a person who killed her. Most killers are not serial killers. That’s a strawman argument that James renter like to throw out to justify his theory.
What if it was just some guy that picked her up and there she was half drunk, half injured and he simply took advantage of the situation?! Someone who might not have ever gone out and done something like this but because it fell in his lap so to speak, he does the unthinkable?
Serial killers are not the only type of criminal in existence. Kidnappers and rapists can abduct with intent to commit crimes other than murder but end up murdering their victims nonetheless.
Serial killers are not the only type of criminal in existence. Kidnappers and rapists can abduct with intent to commit crimes other than murder but end up murdering their victims nonetheless.
So what I was wondering, and I haven't heard anything about this discussed. Were there any clothes found in the car after it was abandoned. Even if this little "trip" was only decided on by Maura over that final weekend in Amherst and it was only intended to be a getaway for a few days to clear her head you would have to assume she brought clothing etc. She would have brought even more if she intended to start a new life. Even if she decided to leave everything in her dorm to throw people off so that it didn't look like she was going to start a new life or something, she still would have certainly brought a few days worth at least. Why it's important is to try and figure out what Maura's initial intent was of this trip and from there, help determine what ultimately happened to her. If there was no clothing found in the car it would be safe to assume she had taken it with her, adding to it that she possibly had a bottle of alcohol it could make it more likely she did have another ride and less likely she'd be running away from the seen having quite a bit to carry especially to do it fast enough to simply vanish in the midst of multiple sightings by neighbors. Also if no clothing etc. was found in the car, no matter how logical it would be that she would have had clothing and other stuff with her we could never be 100% sure but some of her close friends from school or possibly her sisters could determine from what was left in her dorm if indeed some of her clothing and other belongings indeed were missing and in turn must have been taken with her. Does anyone know if this took place or not? This is extremely common in investigations of this sort to determine if a missing person left on their own will and to determine if they were just leaving for a few days or possibly were moving/running away. When Lance and Tim were talking in this episode about whether she took the bottle of alcohol or possibly tossed it and that she had just left other alcohol in her car, this just popped in to my head and to me it seems like it could be a really important clue.
Now well written letters are redflags? Just anything to potray the father in a negative light huh? They try anything to make the case more sensational. Don't take this podcast serious.
I just found you podcasts! And I have binged on it all day. Right now I'm on #8 but I am dying to hear about MM affair with the track coach. What was he doing the time of her disappearance? What about the the UMASS cabin could she had been going up there to meet him? And what was the wife (if he's married) thoughts on MM and his affair? I am just too involved with the episodes to google it myself.
Another phenomenal episode. I posted a string of things on Twitter... but if anyone over here isn't following there, here are some things to think about. Did Fred write these letters because people would expect something from him on the anniversary? I don't think Fred killed Maura or did anything bad to her... I think he helped her get outta dodge. I'm also curious if anyone has ever plotted the times and locations that the ATMs were hit to get the missing $4,000. Great episode!
Tracking the ATM records based on locations and times could be interesting but may prove to be difficult, I have no idea if that information is public record, though it's most likely not
Alcohol and Tylenol are both processed in the liver. The liver has a finite ability to process chemicals. This means that when both substances are present, it can take the liver longer to process each of them. When this occurs, the substances may stay in the bloodstream for longer. These effects place extra stress on the liver, increasing the potential for damage from either Tylenol or alcohol.
While I agree in some ways Fred's unwillingness to work with this community of online sleuths (especially given his perspective on shoddy police work) could be seen as suspicious- I think it also could be seen as a grieving father- who has always been a private kind of person- but also a very stubborn person. Who feels he's been outrageously maligned and some ppl - even if clarifying something might make everything understood- his stubbornness and ability to hold a grudge against his critics- who don't know him personally- was stronger than his desire to be understood. He also may feel nobody can do anything to find what happened to his daughter all these years later so it's not worth it to him to talk
I believe James runner 100 percent bc he spent 5 yrs n was only one to fig it out, and his blog has so much evidence it's unbelievable. I do believe she's alive and in Canada.
"The letter didn't need to be public" says the guys who accuse the father of withholding info, and seem to think everything about the family should be public. These guys have already made up their minds about Frank, they will use anything against him. Frank seems like good guy trying to find his daughter, sometimes people ARE as they seem. Not everyone has hidden motives like some stupid movie. Frank has no involvement in this, when I watched Disappeared a few years ago, I never thought anyone could think he was involved. Seems I was wrong, seems like people can't accept that a random stranger could have done it. That doesn't leave room for a plot twist and isn't sensational enough for them.
The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. § 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. § 540A0, and serial killers (28 U.S.C. §540B). Absent evidence that a violent crime has been committed (which does not exist) the FBI has no jurisdiction to step into this case unless asked by state officials.
Any basic college writing course is going to teach you this is how you write a persuasive essay. But didn't you say you went to school for acting? Oh yea that's right! So of course you wouldn't know the different writing styles. A persuasive essay is to....persuade someone to act. He follows all of the steps that a persuasive essay needs. And he even finish off with a call to action. Encourage your children to get basic education people or they'll grow up thinking letters like this are suspicious!
Someone in cold weather trying to keep warm could appear to be moving furtively. The fact that the car was locked could indicate that she had planned to return to it. He might not have proofed the letter adequately because he was upset to the point of distraction.
I believe that an officer had something to do with the disappearance of this young lady. Her case reminds me of the disappearance and murder of Mitrice Richardson who was last seen by law enforcement in California.
So Im very late and have no idea if u'll see this but criminal minds is one of my favorite shows. I'm pretty sure at some points if it's not in there jurisdiction and there not asked to come in I'm not sure they can. There are def. Some episodes where the locals don't want the FBI involved at all. By the way this is very interesting. At this point I have no idea what to think. It's confusing my mind.
Does James Renner somewhere say what his basis is for calling her a sociopath? I do agree there are some signs- like the risky behavior- stealing $5 of makeup- but that's all I've heard so far. And to me that's not enough yet.
The Connecticut River Valley killer's last known attack happened in 1988 in West Swanzey, NH. That's 100 miles away and 16 years before Maura went missing. If Fred was using that as a point to police to keep women in the area safe, it was a pretty outdated reference to use by 2004. There have been no known victims of the Valley killer since 1988, and the majority of the victims were hitchhiking which was more common and less of a taboo in the 80's.
+WolverineHistorian I think the implication was that the uncaught killer was still in the area and snatching girls off the road was his MO. I personally do not believe the West Swanzey attack was by the same guy as the other crimes, which were all committed near Claremont which is a lot closer to Woodsville. That said I do not think it was the CRV Killer.
There are certain cases that automatically fall within the FBIs purview, missing adults, I don't believe- are one of them. In this case the local/state police must extend an invitation of assistance.
Trying to bully a man into talking to you about his missing daughter- as if talking to you guys is going to change this situation one iota ?! I’ve lost respect for you two massively .
What you are saying about Fred Murray not wanting to talk to independent investigators does not surprise me at all. And nobody should make too much out of that fact. From everything that I've read and heard, it appears to me that Fred has worked hard to try to get professionals to do more. And I suspect that he has already been burned by talking to certain individuals who have injected themselves into this. I'm not accusing you at Missing Maura Murray of engaging in that kind of behavior, in fact, with the exception of giving James Renner more of a voice in this case than he deserves, you've done an admirable job so far. It is too tempting to try to paint Fred as having some sort of dark motive for not wanting to talk to non-professionals as he searches for his daughter, when in fact, he likely just does not (rightly) trust everyone who comes along that wants to help. Let's face it, while a lot of people might be very sincere about wanting to help, there are also far too many people who want to believe in all kinds of crazy things about cases like this. I'm sure that Fred has heard it all, from people who believe in psychics to those who swear she has been abducted by space aliens in a UFO..
I really disagree with the assertion that she is a sociopath, that's really stretching it. When I see the "scary" picture of her, the unofficial mug shot, I see someone who is very troubled, and has given up.
I don't know that she had given up, but she definitely looked like she was in a downward spiral & was probably trying to escape her life because she was at a loss for what to do & how to fix things.
I don't think the cop refused handing over the case to the Feds, they refused the offer of assistance....it sounds like the FBI wasn't forcing the issue just offering resources and perhaps some manpower if the state police decided they needed some help....the help was refused and the FBI didn't make anything of it because they hadn't assigned anyone to the case yet anyway....just how it sounds to me
The letters DO HAVE evidence. They ARE evidence. That she ran away. Again, go to James renners blog and listen to his other podcasts. He tried to find her for five yrs. he knows more than anyone except her family.
James was on a previous podcast and sounded like an incompetent, overly sure, ignorant man unable to be swayed by any real evidence and only believed what he wants to believe and voids evidence that debunks his theories and exaggerates evidence that supports it. I found him to be incompetent, unreliable, and untrustworthy. He said Maura is a sociopath, which I cant see. I'm listening to these podcasts really trying to look at all angles and sociopath isn't one of them.
But isn't Fred's arguments on what police should have done - don't they make absolute sense? Alert police in next town in direction she likely went? I do agree tho Fred is very likely to blame for police thinking MM walked off on her own to disappear based on his statements. But an emotional father in grief will still look to blame others. He doesn't want to blame himself or himself ALONE
Glad to see so much support for Fred and the rest of Maura's family in the comments. They, and these letters, are zero suspicious imo. I like James Renner myself but I think he's been insensitive and hurtful in some of the things he has said and Fred owes him zip. I can see why he wants nothing to do with him. I also think once the case became well-known Fred may have felt he'd done his job in that respect and had nothing more to offer, especially as he became somewhat a target himself. I wish him and the family peace and healing and, hopefully, one day, answers.
ReligiousZombie so you decided that was important enough to comment on ? Wow...you’re so much more intelligent than him...I applaud your immense vocabulary 🙄
Honestly, who wasn't thinking that? I'm sure most listeners thought pretending to look up the word furtively was a weird, disingenuous moment. "Here let me look up this fifth grade vocabulary word because my listeners are idiots." Jfc have some faith in your audience
I come from a family of cops, including some NH state police. I don't buy into any of the bad or incompetent cop theories. I think that is just a product of a lot of the anti-cop garbage that is going around our country these days. 99% of the cops I know are honest, trustworthy, and great people. The kind of folks you want as neighbors. I think Maura was likely abducted and killed, after the accident. It was a crime of opportunity - someone who was in the immediate area and took advantage of her situation. I think she was a complicated and flawed person but certainly didn't deserve what happened to her. I think there was and still is a primary suspect but there isn't enough evidence to take any action. Can you guys talk more about the trailer that was near the accident scene that was removed several years later and was stopped and searched by the police at that time? I believe I read somewhere that nothing was found but the fact it was searched points to the owner as a suspect, at least in the eyes of the cops. I also believe he is the same guy that claimed days after the accident to see a person running along the road miles to the east the night of the crash. That belated report always seemed odd to me, almost as it was trying to lead investigators away from the accident and the immediate surrounding area. I know Renner "cleared" this guy but I'm certainly not convinced based on his analysis provided, unless he has something more substantial than the guy plays a mean guitar. Can you track him down? His exwife? One of his children also appears to have posted on Renner's site previously. Unlike Butch Atwood, this guy is still alive. He might be completely innocent but I think he is much more likely to have useful information than trying from Maura's friends and family.
Pick a random city in America and google police corruption. You'll see there's no shortage of cops behaving either unethically or incompetently. We'd all like to believe that all cops are honest and good people, but they're still people like the rest of us with the same flaws who are placed in positions of unique power that unfortunately creates a lot of potential for abuse.
There is so much about these letters that sound like "legal-ese". I wonder if they were written by a lawyer? There are some parts of the letters that sound like Fred and some that sound like an attorney. According to James Renner's blog, Fred did have an action against the police (or the state?) to get access to documents. This letter sounds like someone that is laying the groundwork to sue or to take action against someone. He does say some things that makes me think he is in pain, however his actions are bizarre. Personally, I think it's weird to wait a YEAR to contact the governor if you are truly trying to find your daughter. I think the contradictions in Fred could come from his knowing where Maura is and lying to everyone, even his own attorney.
In my opinion the letter also reads as an opportunity to call attention to the kinks in the system. The other disappearances he mentions, the ideas that he floats, they are just general enough to be critical of actual area where the system could do better but not in his case persoanlly? Does that make sense?
A young woman with a lot on her mind wanted to get away for a few days and unfortunately ran into misfortune. That's all that's going on here folks. Over-analyzing every dot and jot is just stupid. After ten years it is unlikely she's still alive - do you really think her family would keep pushing law enforcement to investigate if they knew she was alive and well in some other country? And of course interest wanes after someone is missing ten years. Get real people.
josh berry Bodies are missed and looked over all the time. Hikers usually end up finding them in or around the same spot years later. It's possibly what happened to her too. Who knows
ehh Police at the time would have considered her a DUI and Hit and Run SUSPECT, not a missing persons.. She could have stayed in the car and called the police and even had a chance to have them called for her... The police really dont owe her shit to go out and find her.....
Probably, but in that case it probably would have been the husband that did it. Maybe that sounded wrong, but this couldn't have happened how it did had she been the wife and not the daughter.
I can't help but speculate now if the cops had something to do with it. That or they don't want a lawsuit on them about being negligent. Sadly it sounds like Maura was not in her right mind prior to this disappearance and if she had hit her head in the accident that makes it even more worrisome. I still think the elements got her one way or another . An animal or falling down and/or freezing out there. I don't think it was an intention at that point to harm herself. I think the plans changed once she got broken down post accident. It was sheer instinct mode and whatever happened. The instinct didn't pan out for her this time. :(
I don't think you guys should be judging how a man who has a missing daughter should act. You do not know what it feels like and you need to respect his position in this. For him it's not some fun mystery to solve. It's his daughter and it's his reality. It's not unusual at all to me for him to distance himself from Renner and the similar.
I personally think the only way to read these letters as 'strange, odd suspicious' is to go IN to reading them with the mindset of being suspicious of Fred already. Just my humble opinion
I see nothing suspicious. In fact it's completely in line w/ grief and anger and a need to blame someone. Anyone
agree - cant related to it at all
AGREE.
Cate Ellington I 100% agree with you, I don't see anything suspicious about his letter. He's just a dad trying to find his daughter.
Yes I totally agree with you. It’s similar to LE having a theory and then looking for evidence to prove that theory .
nothing suspicious about those letters, in fact they have cleared any doubt in my mind if freds involvement in her disappearance. i do believe she hit that man with her car(so obvious, with the timelines and her highly emotional behaviour that night, she thought she had just killed someone with her car) I think fred was helping her cover up that hit and run. he gave her money not to disappear forever but enough for her to get out of town and wait for the heat of the hit and run to cool down. she was so distraught with what she had done, causing her to drown her sorrows on her way to "get away" for a few days. slippery roads and alcohol caused her accident. that is where it gets iffy. i think she was so overwhelmed with all the shit in her life that had previously gone down and now another accident, she ran. realizing how cold it was getting and she was to out of it to go at it alone anymore she stuck out her thumb or someone just happened to stop and pick her up and that is how she met her demise. or she ran and ran, couldn't find a safe haven and died of exposure. mind you, I am new to this case and only on episode 8, so my theory may change. one thing i am sure about, she hit that man with her car. too many coincidences from that night add up.
i actually dont think she hit petrit with her car anymore.
+Rayna Clarke When I first started researching this case, I truly believed she had been murdered by someone, but have since changed my mind. The fact that there was a bottle of Tylenol PM in the car, coupled with the amount of alcohol she had brought with her and the frantic behavior of her father when told of her disappearance (he knew why she went up there), makes me firmly believe she was going to drive into the white mountains to some remote area and end her life. Now, obviously, things didn't turn out how she had hoped, so she hightailed it down the highway and was actually seen 4 or 5 miles away by a passing motorist, who didn't report it for at least several days. She more than likely died of exposure, running on foot into the white mountains. The odds of her encountering a killer are 1 in millions.
+joydivsion77 this aspect is very similar to the Lee cutler case. he has never been found either.
I don't think she went out there to necessarily kill herself. I think she was definitely depressed. I think that final accident sent her into an unplanning frenzy of running around, trying to avoid being arrested in the wilderness.
I think there should be search efforts and a lot of them. I'd like info on that. I think they should start from the place she was spotted 5 miles from the crash scene. I am a daily runner (8 miles) and 5 miles is nothing for an active person, especially who is scared out of her mind. I wouldn't be suprised if she is 20 miles or more away.
Rayna Clarke I'm interested in this theory. Why do you think the father hasn't come forward to say this is what happened if she could of come into some harm?
Rayna Clarke i am of similar opinon, th o if exposure happnd,, what explains them not finding the body with the cadaver dogs (?)
What I got from the letters Fred Murray wrote to the governor's is plain and simple, a dad trying to get answers about his daughter's disappearance.... No need to pick it all apart and make anything else out of it then what it is. A plea for help in the case. No one else see's that? WOW!
+Linus Zims I agree entirely! Just because the man writes intelligently and articulately is not suspicious in and of itself so to start off by describing it as "overly wordy",for example,seems to me to be to be like an attempt at "firestarting",as it were.
Linus Zims I agree with you.
Linus Zims if he wanted answers why didn't he help after the very beginning until two years later w/ lawyers... that's why so many ppl question everything about him in my opinion
I know.This is really making me angry.These people with all their "theories".None of this speculation is going to bring her back.I hope they dig up that basement soon and find out if she's there.
Yeah, I love learning and thinking about this case and others but I think some people really take it overboard when it comes to certain details they analyze and the excessive significance that seems to be given to things that are pretty straightforward. The letters seem to mean exactly what they mean. For example he is clearly saying that the FBI should be involved because they can move around the jurisdictional hurdles that come with a multi-state, multi-county case. The Connecticut River physically divides Vermont and New Hampshire. I don't think the mention of it is some subtle nod to a serial killer.
I don't believe Fred or any of Maura's friends and family were involved. I feel especially bad for Fred because his daughter is missing and there is the torture of not knowing what happened to her. Couple that with people who are speculating he was involved with his daughter's disappearance must be pure hell.
Ofc not. However based on the quantity of alcohol I am convinced that she had told at the very least somebody her destination.
I don't think that Fred not talking to people about Maura anymore has anything to do with him having "dismissed" her. He talked before about her (like on disappeared) and maybe he just feels like he has nothing more to add to it and he is just heartbroken and not able to talk about this anymore. Everybody deals differently in such situations. Also, I think that he is constantly getting harrassed by SO MANY people who want him to talk about Maura (since this case is so famous). I totally understand that he wouldn't want to talk and don't think that is suspicious or anything like that.
You guys second guess him because he waited a few months before writing the letter? How do you know what you would do as a parent of a missing child? You don't. And you have to remark that he sounds like a "regular guy" in some parts? He is a regular guy!
I really don't think his letter is odd at all! I think he is very angry and wants to be as articulate\descriptive as possible to get his message across. Maybe to produce an emotional response from the reader. He is a dad and he wants to get help to find his daughter. Boil everything down in this letter and the meaning is - You guys didn't do enough, you guys are still not doing enough even though other resources are available, take this seriously and help find my daughter. Why do you see this as a legitimate lead?
You guys just do not get it. He does not care what "trolls" think or say. You cannot hurt a parent beyond the hurt of losing a child. The pain he has suffered makes your meaningless judgments insignificant to him.
🌠 the more you know...
Bobby you're a 100% correct.
These self-unaware -hosts- gossipers obviously do not have children.
Fred is totally broken. He doesn't want to be part of gossip.
The community that claims to want to help him is also calling his daughter a sociopath, and throwing shade at him, while calling everyone liars.
Posting it publicly would mean that the Governor is being addressed formally and almost requires him to respond publicly.
I can see a grieving father never wanting to 'accept' his daughters dead. So not declaring her dad- that alone- is not that suspicious to me
+Cate Ellington agreed. Generation Why had an episode with a guest whose son got lost on a mountain and he didn't want to declare him dead just in case his son was alive- he wanted his son to see that he was still looking and still hoping. He didn't want his son to look up his family and see that his disappearance had been labeled case closed and apparently everyone has happily moved on. Unfortunately his son's remains were eventually found on the mountain, but knowing his reasoning dispels any concerns about the Murrays not declaring Maura dead.
I know i am late to the party but these guys are flip flopping the terms sociopath and psychopath. Its really all psychopaths are sociopaths, but not all sociopaths are psychopaths " not the way they stated it.... which is kind of an important distinction
And he may feel quite upset at ppl calling his daughter a sociopath.
She was a known liar and thief.
@@alwaysdustyThat doesn't make her a sociopath lol. Read up on what a sociopath is.
No disrespect guys, I appreciate what you're doing for the Maura Murray case, but respectfully, a sociopath is someone with antisocial personality disorder, which by definition, is someone who exhibits antisocial behavior, which DOES include lack of empathy as one of the determining factors, but there are a myriad of other traits, namely a complete disregard for the rights and welfare of other people, lacking a sense of conscience, and a sense of invincibility to the rules, laws, and norms that govern normal human behavior. Simply lacking empathy does not equal sociopath.
I don't think the letters are "weird" at all. They're simply a plea for help, but happen to be really well-written. He just wanted to make points that are bold and compelling enough to hopefully invoke a response. I think you guys are reading way too much into them. He's apparently just a really good letter writer! This is not to say that his behavior isn't questionable, but I don't find these letters all that fascinating. I'm glad you shared them though.
I hate that you guys fall in with the James Renner theory. Renner clearly had it out for Fred the entire time. For crying out loud, it's not Fred lol
The lack of awareness and entitlement from these two is truly maddening.
Really appreciate your comments on how events, if not fully explored, become folklore.
Lack of empathy is only one characteristic of a sociopathic personality. It's much more complex than just that. You can also lack empathy and not be a sociopath.
+Bianca Armendy What bothers me the most about James Renner is the fact that he is all too ready to disparage the people connected to the cases he interjects himself into. He calls Maura a sociopath, yet is not himself qualified to do so. He goes past mere insinuation that Fred Murray must be hiding something if he refuses to talk to hack journalists, like himself. I see more sociopathic tendencies in Renner than I do in Maura Murray. Renner has a bullying attitude that is very unprofessional and represents the worst kind of tabloid journalism. In fact, "tabloid journalism" best describes the kind of work Renner does.
+Jamie McCrea I've been following missing person and other true crime cases for years and never have I seen anyone so willing to insult the memory of the victim or disparage the victim's families so readily as James Renner is.
As a studying nurse, if you don't have empathy your teachers are going to notice and it's going to be a massive problem for them, until her teachers report a lack of empathy, I'm not even so sure she is incapable of it or is just a young girl who is immature and self-involved, I'm 21 and I see this as quite common
Digging for DIRT abouy her family is disgusting and inappropriate..
wait wait wait, let me get this straight- we're trolls if we dispute the validity of your/Renner's baseless claims and unfounded suspicions, but Renner is totally justified in calling a woman he never knew a sociopath? Wow.
It's clear to me that fred is both an intelligent alpha and a grieving father and the letters are telling in regards to his ability to demand his daughters rights as a citizen as well as his anger is one direction and clear avoidence towards the direction of others. Whether there was good work done in the beginning or not and whether maura left this world voluntarily or was abducted in his opinion or not, she is still not here dead or alive to reveal what happened so this letter to me makes perfect sense. Obviously there has been help from the public that fred doesn't seem to be embracing but it seems to be the help that also puts him in a questionable light in the process. That tells me as a layperson that deep down he may know at the end of the day that she may very well be passed by her own choosing and he just doesn't want his family and her name tarnished in the process. He still wants to bury his daughter. Hope I've made sense
To reference the last comment the last comment what are the odds of a series killer coming upon her are extremely low, however the odds of every possible scenario you can come up with is extremely low. Look at it this way. The odds of winning the lottery are almost nothing but somebody wins it every week.
After listening to now 8 of the podcasts and watching the oxygen documentary I think she met with foul play. I think James Renner is a pos and if I ever meet him I would tell him to his face. Mr Murray is a broken man and people like him only make matters worse with his complete and utter nonsense with nothing backing it up. HE IS THE SOCIOPATH.
A bit late to this discussion.....I don’t see anything unusual, weird or any red flags in the letter. I think Fred either thoughtfully wrote the letter & researched a few facts or was assisted by a lawyer or someone with legal knowledge. There appears to be some ‘legal speak’ in there.
Fred may be a parent but his letters are to an ‘official’ person and the tone has to combine his personal parental message as well as be appropriate for the recipient, in this case it’s going to formal in language used. Perfectly acceptable.
I don't think the FBI assigned a team to this case and were turned away by Troop F. More likely in my mind is that the FBI reached out to Troop F saying "We're able to offer you guys help if you want it" and Troop F declined that offer.
This is mind boggling to say the least, everyone can speculate but the truth is no one knows for sure what happened the night of her disappearance. So many accounts of what happened leading up to that night it's getting freaking crazyyyy!
Regarding Renner's sociopath comment, we have to remember a major fact: It seems in those last days before Maura disappeared, she appeared to be lying to EVERYONE. To her employer about the phone call. To the school about a family member dying. And then the ultimate kicker: She even lied to the bus driver when he tried to help her that night, telling him she called AAA when actually she didn't. Lying and misleading people was a common behavior of hers. THAT is the absolute definition of sociopath--so I support Renner's assertion. And none of this even mentions using a person's credit card and the theft she committed as a cadet.
But, there's something else regarding the lying. If she lied to all those people I mentioned, then it is ABSOLUTELY probable that she lied to her family--mainly her father--in the days leading up to her disappearance. I mean, do we really believe she was lying to everyone else in her life, but was honest with her dad? That seems like a stretch.
Could it be she lied to father about something happening, and that's the reason he got all that money? Then, once he gave her that money, she disappeared. Meaning: Her father was getting her "get away" money without even realizing it. Given Maura's tendencies, that is easy to believe--she manipulated every person she knew, seemingly.
The whole thing about Maura's disappearance is, knowing her the way we've all come to know her, it's within her behavior to stage a car wreck as a way to make it look like an accident. Then, make it appear as if somebody abducted her afterwards. Sure, the temperature was 12 degrees. But we don't know what clothes she had in the car. She could've used her dad's money to buy survival gear--we'd never know because she would've used cash. Maura could've faked being drunk when the bus driver came upon her. Then, once he left, she puts on the heavy clothes and takes off into the woods.
It could be we've all looked at what Maura did in those days before she disappeared a bit too naively. We've been taking Maura "at her word" regarding her behavior. Maybe it was part of an elaborate scheme by a person who seemed to have scheming down pretty well. Why take the call to that resort so seriously and honestly when we all know she was lying to everyone in her life? Doesn't it make more sense to doubt the sincerity of that call given what else Maura was saying to people in her life? I think it does.
And it could be, listening to Fred's letters, that, at first, Fred thought it was an abduction. But maybe, after he had a chance to assess everything in the case--because he's probably found out a lot about his daughter that he didn't know, just like we all have, he could've had a light bulb go off in his head one night, sat up in bed and said, "Holy crap, that money I gave her was for her to disappear. She fooled me like she did everybody else in her life." And that would definitely explain his unwillingness to grant any interviews because he feels like a fool.
Just some thoughts.
+Amanda W Amanda, I have no problem with what you wrote as long as you can sit there and say you've never called someone a "moron", "idiot" or "imbecile". Because they're medical terms, too.
+Amanda W You've read Renner's book already? It's not even published yet. How dare you diagnose his book as being un-interesting before actually meeting, uh, reading it . . . Go ahead, I"ll give you the last word.
+Ed Dentzel in this podcast I think they mixed up the terms sociopath and psychopath. A sociopath is basically a person with no conscience. they don't feel bad if they hurt you to no matter what degree. they only feel bad if they themselves get hurt. such people live out there and are encountered every day like someone who steals your parking space as you are backing into it. (that happened to me once and the guy gave me the finger as he walked away) The guy who won the first season of Survivor and then refused to pay the taxes on his winnings is the most obvious sociopath I have seen on TV. A psychopath is a much rarer steroid version of a sociopath. Recently there does seem to be a trend to merge these two terms but traditionally the psychopath has violent tendencies or is much less able to at least appear to conform with societal norms.
+Ed Dentzel 'Lies a lot' is the definition of being a sociopath. Sorry, but that's just... patently incorrect.
I agree these are troubling things. But a young woman with depression, a lot of pressure and bulimia can lie for other reasons too. But yeah it seems like a lot of behavior associated w/ sociopathy. I forgot about the credit card thing.
Having been a police officer in a former life, I can say that after being dispatched to a crash scene, you gather measurements or eye ball it, you wait for the tow truck, sit there on scene and fill out the crash report... Sometimes milk the clock because staying there keeps you on the call and not available for other calls.... Not saying he did, but it happens. Hopefully he canvassed which I assume he did... Can't imagine he didn't at all..... Two hours sounds like a long time on a scene but it really isn't. On the flip side, it IS a good amount of time on a scene as a crash scene can often be wrapped up and you drive away in 15-20 min. All of this is not withstanding with a missing driver...... So...... The only person who can truthfully attest and account for the time is the officer himself and he has no duty to the public to divulge his every movement.
Fred has been really weird about his daughters case from day one. Why was he visiting that weekend? Where did the 4000 go n why did he withdraw it from eight ATMs? Why didn't he want a book about his daughter and why did her mom not even look for her??? James has most of the answers.
Her mother had an illness and died in 2009. Oxygen briefly talked about it in their new tv series about Maura.
They posted it publicly to put pressure on governor to do something. If he truly doesn't know where she is. And parents of children go thru many stages of grief. Putting blame on others is extremely common.
So you will entertain the idea of paranormal activity but not the theory that the cop could have done something. Its at least worth looking into. He was there after the accident for 2 hours but from what I know nobody can tell what he was actually doing during that time...
She walked away from the accident and went to the a frame house were she was unfortunately murdered. Thats it.
I love this series on this podcast, but this episode really pissed me off. I hate the fact that Lance and Tim suspect Fred.
Grief stricken broken parents I'm not surprised do contradictory things. Their life I'm sure Is an emotional roller coaster. Especially in first few years
So far I see nada suspicious about the letters at all
Wow you 2 are clueless on addiction...of.course she would consider running with a bottle of alcohol.she obviously used alcohol regularly,..sounded like the early stages of substance abuse.
At this point if she was honestly missing and they had no idea where she was. Why would he not answer those few questions that are haunting people. Did she accidentally hit that man? Why did you suddenly want to get her a new car? What happened to that 3-4,000 dollars? Etc... at this point he will not be held responsible for aiding her with the hit and run. (If it was her). So why not just sit and try to join the people who are trying to help? Since the police aren't. I do not understand. I feel like I'd do anything I could take any opportunity for help if I was that frantic.
Great observation and question 👍
Mr Maury comes from a different era - an era in which people were taught and expected to use formal language when addressing authorities of any kind.
My initial impression of this channel was rather good, but with your baseless aspersions of his character and intent, my positive impression has diminished somewhat.
Is it a generational thing? Your conclusions are not reasonable, and your appraisal of Mr Murray hints at a frightening lack of human understanding and a dismal lack of objective logic.
You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "sociopath".
also, you guys need to look up what trolls are. You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
it is extremely hard to believe that fred is completely 'on the level', when he allows all this wild speculation to go on about him... You would think he would come out and set the record straight about all these questions.
frarfarf Sometimes, it's just better to go on with your life, rather than feed into public opinion.
It's possible he sees the police as the ones that are going to figure it out and sees the public as only getting in the way and is deciding not to give them the time of day
He doesn't owe we the public anything. I also don't think he cares about public opinion. All he is concerned about is his missing daughter.
Why does he have to answer anyone's accusations?He just wants justice for his daughter!End of story.All of you need to get a life and take care of your own business.
His Child is gone, nothing eles matters.
I'm not sure how everything works but usually when outside forces come in to a small town and try to take over the case, they are met with much prejudice and skepticism- it's all about ego and it's bullshit. Hope that wasn't the case here.
What?He needs to allow people to "help",who are not law enforcement, and could compromise the investigation and evidence?
with the lack of police action as stated by Fred Murray (I do think he knows more than he is telling) a cop could have something to do with her disappearance.
I love your podcasts, I think you guys have done a great job researching this case. I listened to all of them in one day. The only thing you guys haven't brought up that I would like to know more about is the voice mail that Maura's boyfriend had on his phone the morning after she disappeared that he said sounded like her crying or whimpering. I think that is a little strange if it is true.
Oh really? I didn't hear that part. Thanks for telling me! That was one thing that always stuck out to me, along with a couple other things.
What happened to the answer ? Damn it RUclips that's a crime. Quit stealing people's comments. 😒
5 miles, in the snow, half an hour, drunk. No. Definitely not. 4 miles? Probably not.
I'm on pins and needles wanting to hear more...This definitely sucks you in. My heart goes out to her family...Part of you thinks she may have met foul play and the other part thinks she may of disappeared on her own. Or she was going to disappear and maybe got kidnapped !
Yes of course this letter sounds like a guilt trip of course! He wants the Governor to feel bad for him and enlist help to find his daughter. What are you two missing about everything that almost everyone else is able to see. Is this podcast purely for entertainment purposes because it doesn't sound like it's really to help the case.
When you were reading his first letter, it sounded like something I would write. I have written letters to government officials, and many people who are in an "authority" position. In my experience, I feel like using stronger language and wordiness represent a feeling of inadequacy and inferiority of the writer when speaking with authority figures, like a Governor. He sounds like someone who was very emotional and upset, and it sounds like someone who read it over and over and over again, and then at one point gave up on reading it, and just sent the letter.
Im assuming you didn't apply any of those government letters as inspiration when writing this comment?
Not to be that rude but after reading your comment it looks to me as if you attempted to use sesquipedalian words and more intricate sentences. "In my experience, using stronger....". Also, how would wordiness and the use of strong words represent inadequacy and inferiority of the writer to a person in authority (a word you seem to like because your thesaurus must be broken?). Shouldn't wordiness and stronger wording help the writer feel more equal to the Governor not inferior? I don't think the wording in this letter signifies or gives any insight into how many times he read it. I think at points his frustration towards specific agencies shows and he losses the professional edge he started with and emotion does get the best of him. I think that makes this letter that much better and it represents many of the stages of grief people go through and it does all of that in one simple letter. This letter definitely says a lot but nothing close to what the hosts of this podcast want to believe so they twist it for entertainment value. In my opinion, the truth behind this letter has more appeal than what they want to portray.
I have a degree in psychology and am currently working on my masters degree in marriage and family therapy. Having gone through some training in these fields I think my two cents is worth something on the sociopath debate. I think it is a complete stretch, given the material I have been privy to, to make a diagnosis of sociopath. When looking at her behavior in the months leading up to her disappearance she sounds like, for all intensive purposes, a normal college girl trying to find out where she fits in life. Borderline Personality disorder is something that might fit a little better. That being said profiling a person is one thing but to a certain degree making diagnosis from a far, not having known the person is some what ethically questionable. Early college years are a very trying time for some people and I think she was just trying to find her way...unfortunately that was cut very short.
Fred owes James NOTHING. James is a creep.
Just found this and am binging. My issue is this: someone 'saw' a girl that matched her description 30 minutes after the crash 4 - 5 miles down the road. Which like they said is a pretty good running pace and possible. But then you add in the fact she (possibly) had a head injury AND was (possibly) intoxicated in well below freezing weather... no, just no.
EXACTLY!! When they said that "she was a runner, I guess she could've done that", I immediately thought that this guys are, at this point, just producing noise and non-sense.
The FBI should demand answers as to the missing time in McKay's call logs around the time Maura Murray went missing
The odds of a serial killer at that exact time, is very slim to none.
Who says it was a serial killer? It only Hass to be a person who killed her. Most killers are not serial killers. That’s a strawman argument that James renter like to throw out to justify his theory.
What if it was just some guy that picked her up and there she was half drunk, half injured and he simply took advantage of the situation?! Someone who might not have ever gone out and done something like this but because it fell in his lap so to speak, he does the unthinkable?
Serial killers are not the only type of criminal in existence. Kidnappers and rapists can abduct with intent to commit crimes other than murder but end up murdering their victims nonetheless.
Serial killers are not the only type of criminal in existence. Kidnappers and rapists can abduct with intent to commit crimes other than murder but end up murdering their victims nonetheless.
So what I was wondering, and I haven't heard anything about this discussed. Were there any clothes found in the car after it was abandoned. Even if this little "trip" was only decided on by Maura over that final weekend in Amherst and it was only intended to be a getaway for a few days to clear her head you would have to assume she brought clothing etc. She would have brought even more if she intended to start a new life. Even if she decided to leave everything in her dorm to throw people off so that it didn't look like she was going to start a new life or something, she still would have certainly brought a few days worth at least. Why it's important is to try and figure out what Maura's initial intent was of this trip and from there, help determine what ultimately happened to her. If there was no clothing found in the car it would be safe to assume she had taken it with her, adding to it that she possibly had a bottle of alcohol it could make it more likely she did have another ride and less likely she'd be running away from the seen having quite a bit to carry especially to do it fast enough to simply vanish in the midst of multiple sightings by neighbors. Also if no clothing etc. was found in the car, no matter how logical it would be that she would have had clothing and other stuff with her we could never be 100% sure but some of her close friends from school or possibly her sisters could determine from what was left in her dorm if indeed some of her clothing and other belongings indeed were missing and in turn must have been taken with her. Does anyone know if this took place or not? This is extremely common in investigations of this sort to determine if a missing person left on their own will and to determine if they were just leaving for a few days or possibly were moving/running away. When Lance and Tim were talking in this episode about whether she took the bottle of alcohol or possibly tossed it and that she had just left other alcohol in her car, this just popped in to my head and to me it seems like it could be a really important clue.
Now well written letters are redflags? Just anything to potray the father in a negative light huh? They try anything to make the case more sensational. Don't take this podcast serious.
Wine coolers are flavored beer. The term beer could be used for reference to a wine cooler.
I just found you podcasts! And I have binged on it all day. Right now I'm on #8 but I am dying to hear about MM affair with the track coach. What was he doing the time of her disappearance? What about the the UMASS cabin could she had been going up there to meet him? And what was the wife (if he's married) thoughts on MM and his affair? I am just too involved with the episodes to google it myself.
Another phenomenal episode. I posted a string of things on Twitter... but if anyone over here isn't following there, here are some things to think about. Did Fred write these letters because people would expect something from him on the anniversary? I don't think Fred killed Maura or did anything bad to her... I think he helped her get outta dodge. I'm also curious if anyone has ever plotted the times and locations that the ATMs were hit to get the missing $4,000. Great episode!
Tracking the ATM records based on locations and times could be interesting but may prove to be difficult, I have no idea if that information is public record, though it's most likely not
great show...appreciate the info
Alcohol and Tylenol are both processed in the liver. The liver has a finite ability to process chemicals. This means that when both substances are present, it can take the liver longer to process each of them. When this occurs, the substances may stay in the bloodstream for longer. These effects place extra stress on the liver, increasing the potential for damage from either Tylenol or alcohol.
Sounds like he may have been setting up a lawsuit frankly.
While I agree in some ways Fred's unwillingness to work with this community of online sleuths (especially given his perspective on shoddy police work) could be seen as suspicious- I think it also could be seen as a grieving father- who has always been a private kind of person- but also a very stubborn person. Who feels he's been outrageously maligned and some ppl - even if clarifying something might make everything understood- his stubbornness and ability to hold a grudge against his critics- who don't know him personally- was stronger than his desire to be understood. He also may feel nobody can do anything to find what happened to his daughter all these years later so it's not worth it to him to talk
I believe James runner 100 percent bc he spent 5 yrs n was only one to fig it out, and his blog has so much evidence it's unbelievable. I do believe she's alive and in Canada.
"The letter didn't need to be public" says the guys who accuse the father of withholding info, and seem to think everything about the family should be public. These guys have already made up their minds about Frank, they will use anything against him. Frank seems like good guy trying to find his daughter, sometimes people ARE as they seem. Not everyone has hidden motives like some stupid movie. Frank has no involvement in this, when I watched Disappeared a few years ago, I never thought anyone could think he was involved. Seems I was wrong, seems like people can't accept that a random stranger could have done it. That doesn't leave room for a plot twist and isn't sensational enough for them.
*Fred
@@thesacredmountain3448 uhhhhhh... Oh yeah
The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. § 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. § 540A0, and serial killers (28 U.S.C. §540B). Absent evidence that a violent crime has been committed (which does not exist) the FBI has no jurisdiction to step into this case unless asked by state officials.
+Savryn Myst Thanks for the info. Then Fred Murray has a GREAT point about the NHPD declining help from the FBI in his letters.
Do we actually know that the FBI wasn't asked? Just because Fred says they weren't doesn't make it so.
Any basic college writing course is going to teach you this is how you write a persuasive essay. But didn't you say you went to school for acting? Oh yea that's right! So of course you wouldn't know the different writing styles. A persuasive essay is to....persuade someone to act. He follows all of the steps that a persuasive essay needs. And he even finish off with a call to action. Encourage your children to get basic education people or they'll grow up thinking letters like this are suspicious!
Someone in cold weather trying to keep warm could appear to be moving furtively. The fact that the car was locked could indicate that she had planned to return to it. He might not have proofed the letter adequately because he was upset to the point of distraction.
I believe that an officer had something to do with the disappearance of this young lady. Her case reminds me of the disappearance and murder of Mitrice Richardson who was last seen by law enforcement in California.
i dont buy fred helped her escape to start a new life. he comes across genuine to me.
So Im very late and have no idea if u'll see this but criminal minds is one of my favorite shows. I'm pretty sure at some points if it's not in there jurisdiction and there not asked to come in I'm not sure they can. There are def. Some episodes where the locals don't want the FBI involved at all. By the way this is very interesting. At this point I have no idea what to think. It's confusing my mind.
Does James Renner somewhere say what his basis is for calling her a sociopath? I do agree there are some signs- like the risky behavior- stealing $5 of makeup- but that's all I've heard so far. And to me that's not enough yet.
I believe some one offered her a ride and she took it.then foul play happened.
The Connecticut River Valley killer's last known attack happened in 1988 in West Swanzey, NH. That's 100 miles away and 16 years before Maura went missing. If Fred was using that as a point to police to keep women in the area safe, it was a pretty outdated reference to use by 2004.
There have been no known victims of the Valley killer since 1988, and the majority of the victims were hitchhiking which was more common and less of a taboo in the 80's.
+WolverineHistorian I think the implication was that the uncaught killer was still in the area and snatching girls off the road was his MO. I personally do not believe the West Swanzey attack was by the same guy as the other crimes, which were all committed near Claremont which is a lot closer to Woodsville. That said I do not think it was the CRV Killer.
I totally agree with you.I believe it was unrelated all together.I was born in Claremont NH
There are certain cases that automatically fall within the FBIs purview, missing adults, I don't believe- are one of them. In this case the local/state police must extend an invitation of assistance.
According to this letter, Fred suggested that the FBI offered their services and were turned down.
Trying to bully a man into talking to you about his missing daughter- as if talking to you guys is going to change this situation one iota ?! I’ve lost respect for you two massively .
What you are saying about Fred Murray not wanting to talk to independent investigators does not surprise me at all. And nobody should make too much out of that fact. From everything that I've read and heard, it appears to me that Fred has worked hard to try to get professionals to do more. And I suspect that he has already been burned by talking to certain individuals who have injected themselves into this. I'm not accusing you at Missing Maura Murray of engaging in that kind of behavior, in fact, with the exception of giving James Renner more of a voice in this case than he deserves, you've done an admirable job so far. It is too tempting to try to paint Fred as having some sort of dark motive for not wanting to talk to non-professionals as he searches for his daughter, when in fact, he likely just does not (rightly) trust everyone who comes along that wants to help. Let's face it, while a lot of people might be very sincere about wanting to help, there are also far too many people who want to believe in all kinds of crazy things about cases like this. I'm sure that Fred has heard it all, from people who believe in psychics to those who swear she has been abducted by space aliens in a UFO..
I really disagree with the assertion that she is a sociopath, that's really stretching it. When I see the "scary" picture of her, the unofficial mug shot, I see someone who is very troubled, and has given up.
I don't know that she had given up, but she definitely looked like she was in a downward spiral & was probably trying to escape her life because she was at a loss for what to do & how to fix things.
@ 8:50 - When Fred said there are "corollary cases in Vermont", is he referring to Brianna Maitland?
yes
I don't think the cop refused handing over the case to the Feds, they refused the offer of assistance....it sounds like the FBI wasn't forcing the issue just offering resources and perhaps some manpower if the state police decided they needed some help....the help was refused and the FBI didn't make anything of it because they hadn't assigned anyone to the case yet anyway....just how it sounds to me
The letters DO HAVE evidence. They ARE evidence. That she ran away. Again, go to James renners blog and listen to his other podcasts. He tried to find her for five yrs. he knows more than anyone except her family.
James was on a previous podcast and sounded like an incompetent, overly sure, ignorant man unable to be swayed by any real evidence and only believed what he wants to believe and voids evidence that debunks his theories and exaggerates evidence that supports it. I found him to be incompetent, unreliable, and untrustworthy. He said Maura is a sociopath, which I cant see. I'm listening to these podcasts really trying to look at all angles and sociopath isn't one of them.
@@k.c9698 She's a known liar and thief....
i think she took off on foot to evade the cops. possibly got lost and perished in the wilderness.
But isn't Fred's arguments on what police should have done - don't they make absolute sense? Alert police in next town in direction she likely went?
I do agree tho Fred is very likely to blame for police thinking MM walked off on her own to disappear based on his statements. But an emotional father in grief will still look to blame others. He doesn't want to blame himself or himself ALONE
Sounded like she used alcohol to.cope with all of her pressures.
She's running 4 or 5 miles with a head injury and no blood trail? No way. Where's the blood in the car?
Glad to see so much support for Fred and the rest of Maura's family in the comments. They, and these letters, are zero suspicious imo. I like James Renner myself but I think he's been insensitive and hurtful in some of the things he has said and Fred owes him zip. I can see why he wants nothing to do with him. I also think once the case became well-known Fred may have felt he'd done his job in that respect and had nothing more to offer, especially as he became somewhat a target himself. I wish him and the family peace and healing and, hopefully, one day, answers.
I usually listen to this on stitcher but this episode isn't available yet.
5:42 He had to look up the word "furtively"? Anyone with a high school education should know that word.
So he should not look it up and stay ignorant?
ReligiousZombie so you decided that was important enough to comment on ? Wow...you’re so much more intelligent than him...I applaud your immense vocabulary 🙄
Honestly, who wasn't thinking that? I'm sure most listeners thought pretending to look up the word furtively was a weird, disingenuous moment. "Here let me look up this fifth grade vocabulary word because my listeners are idiots." Jfc have some faith in your audience
So on the other videos, "Truth Seeker Investigations" has commented, is that who they're talking about? He doesn't seem like a troll...
Tom Vance ridiculous- she didn't run 10mph Jesus
Among other reasons, the letters (especially the first) feel exactly like something written in close collusion with a thesaurus.
I come from a family of cops, including some NH state police. I don't buy into any of the bad or incompetent cop theories. I think that is just a product of a lot of the anti-cop garbage that is going around our country these days. 99% of the cops I know are honest, trustworthy, and great people. The kind of folks you want as neighbors. I think Maura was likely abducted and killed, after the accident. It was a crime of opportunity - someone who was in the immediate area and took advantage of her situation. I think she was a complicated and flawed person but certainly didn't deserve what happened to her. I think there was and still is a primary suspect but there isn't enough evidence to take any action. Can you guys talk more about the trailer that was near the accident scene that was removed several years later and was stopped and searched by the police at that time? I believe I read somewhere that nothing was found but the fact it was searched points to the owner as a suspect, at least in the eyes of the cops. I also believe he is the same guy that claimed days after the accident to see a person running along the road miles to the east the night of the crash. That belated report always seemed odd to me, almost as it was trying to lead investigators away from the accident and the immediate surrounding area. I know Renner "cleared" this guy but I'm certainly not convinced based on his analysis provided, unless he has something more substantial than the guy plays a mean guitar. Can you track him down? His exwife? One of his children also appears to have posted on Renner's site previously. Unlike Butch Atwood, this guy is still alive. He might be completely innocent but I think he is much more likely to have useful information than trying from Maura's friends and family.
+Savryn Myst good post. the guy who owned the trailer was the same witness who saw the furtive girl and mentioned it when he needed an alibi.
Pick a random city in America and google police corruption. You'll see there's no shortage of cops behaving either unethically or incompetently.
We'd all like to believe that all cops are honest and good people, but they're still people like the rest of us with the same flaws who are placed in positions of unique power that unfortunately creates a lot of potential for abuse.
I’m so glad to read this. Finally someone with some common sense.
There is so much about these letters that sound like "legal-ese". I wonder if they were written by a lawyer? There are some parts of the letters that sound like Fred and some that sound like an attorney. According to James Renner's blog, Fred did have an action against the police (or the state?) to get access to documents. This letter sounds like someone that is laying the groundwork to sue or to take action against someone. He does say some things that makes me think he is in pain, however his actions are bizarre. Personally, I think it's weird to wait a YEAR to contact the governor if you are truly trying to find your daughter. I think the contradictions in Fred could come from his knowing where Maura is and lying to everyone, even his own attorney.
In my opinion the letter also reads as an opportunity to call attention to the kinks in the system. The other disappearances he mentions, the ideas that he floats, they are just general enough to be critical of actual area where the system could do better but not in his case persoanlly? Does that make sense?
A young woman with a lot on her mind wanted to get away for a few days and unfortunately ran into misfortune. That's all that's going on here folks. Over-analyzing every dot and jot is just stupid. After ten years it is unlikely she's still alive - do you really think her family would keep pushing law enforcement to investigate if they knew she was alive and well in some other country? And of course interest wanes after someone is missing ten years. Get real people.
Janet Williams where did her body go?
Someone in that one horse town just snatched her within minutes of her car wreck?
josh berry Bodies are missed and looked over all the time. Hikers usually end up finding them in or around the same spot years later. It's possibly what happened to her too. Who knows
ehh Police at the time would have considered her a DUI and Hit and Run SUSPECT, not a missing persons..
She could have stayed in the car and called the police and even had a chance to have them called for her...
The police really dont owe her shit to go out and find her.....
I mean technically, shes a fugative on the run with at least 1 warrant out....
or at least thats what anybody else would be...
If she had a head injury due to the accident, I doubt she ran anywhere.
I have a Question. Would the police look had Fred differently if Maura was his wife and not his daughter?
Probably, but in that case it probably would have been the husband that did it. Maybe that sounded wrong, but this couldn't have happened how it did had she been the wife and not the daughter.
Actually, the Connecticut River Valley killer's police sketch, looks exactly like FM's photo you have on the screen at the 14:25 mark. Wth?!
she could of had stage the accident and some one waiting
I can't help but speculate now if the cops had something to do with it. That or they don't want a lawsuit on them about being negligent. Sadly it sounds like Maura was not in her right mind prior to this disappearance and if she had hit her head in the accident that makes it even more worrisome. I still think the elements got her one way or another . An animal or falling down and/or freezing out there. I don't think it was an intention at that point to harm herself. I think the plans changed once she got broken down post accident. It was sheer instinct mode and whatever happened. The instinct didn't pan out for her this time. :(