This is a very illuminating episode. We hear directly from the first witness to lay eyes on the crash that a) Murray's car hit a tree, b) it's a different tree than everyone thinks it is, and c) the crash left a mark on the tree. We simultaneously see John Smith's theory of the disappearance implode. In Episode 14 Mr. Smith said "the Saturn did not hit the pine tree at the corner," "there were no scars on that pine tree," and "there would have been a scar." "It's my 100 percent big question of the whole thing," Mr. Smith says: "Why we were told in the beginning that the Saturn hit the tree, when it is obvious that it did not." We now see Mr. Smith was barking up the wrong tree.
I respectfully disagree. This podcast has done a great job of focusing attention back on the case and has helped the Murray's to gain more signatures for the petition to get the FBI involved (whether or not it's effective).
+Jeremy Maddux well, there's so many cases that go cold and forgotten about bc no one cares to keep the case in the media. This podcast keeps Mauras name out there in hopes she'll be found and not forgotten about! If only we could make episodes like these for all missing people! I think Mauras family should be grateful for this podcast. At least thats how I feel..
+Jeremy Maddux well, there's so many cases that go cold and forgotten about bc no one cares to keep the case in the media. This podcast keeps Mauras name out there in hopes she'll be found and not forgotten about! If only we could make episodes like these for all missing people! I think Mauras family should be grateful for this podcast. At least thats how I feel..
Has anyone investigated whether there is any connection among tommy conrad's murder, maura's disappearance, and james conrad's (or his ex-wfe's connection) to tommy conrad and rick forcier?
If you're gathering information, you need to listen to what people are saying instead of telling them their recollection is wrong. Promoting your own opinions isn't going to solve anything. No wonder the locals don't want to be interviewed regarding Maura. Tom Smith's demeanor is a hindrance not an asset.
Accident reconstruction is not always correct. When my Brother was hit and killed by a drunk driver, crossing the street to his house, there were witnesses and the Police got the whole thing completely wrong. Even to the direction he was walking. The guy was there and saw the accident. That should hold some weight I would think.
I'm listening to this way after you first released it. IMO John Smith is passive aggressive. He thinks he knows everything about accident reconstruction when it was only a police officer for three years. What, was he a specialist? Also he came off as a complete bully to Tim Westman. I think he's taking you down the wrong road.
I completely agree. John Smith's theory of what happened that night is insane and ignores certain facts that you can't ignore. As a local, it feels like he has an axe to grind with some of the individuals involved in this case.
If you want to get an interview with some one you should ask John not to argue with them before you get the interview. Not helpful. Just let the man talk.
Right? I don’t understand arguing with what someone saw. He’s answered that same question, the same way, for almost 12 years. No matter how much you argue, he’s not going to change his answer now. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn’t change it and risk being called a liar. He said what he believed happened, if you don’t think he’s credible, than that’s fine, don’t believe him, but don’t try to change what he believes he saw.... I really didn’t like how he handled that AT ALL. Especially when the other two are so respectful and just let them talk and listen and then say later whether they believe each thing and why or why not. John should take a lesson from them!
@@meredithpase No, he _did_ change his answer from John's earlier interview with him. Still, even though IMHO John Smith knows more about this case than anybody else, it's true that when you interview somebody, you've got to get the full version of what they say, and if you want to challenge something, you find subtle ways to do it that don't seem confrontational or put somebody on their guard.
They argue with the people the interview and call people names and spread rumors as facts and wonder why people relevant to this won't talk to them. They are low level unqualified investigators that attempt to find and use only evidence that supports their theories and all else is considered unbelievable.
Hi there, My wife and I have discovered your podcast in the last week and like many people it's peaked our interest. Although we have been watching some of them out of order, I believe in one of the previous episodes where you were speaking with John Smith, one of the bigger questions you guys wondered was why Faith had been let off the phone from 911 earlier than was standard practise. It's too bad you guys never got a chance to ask Tim that question on the day.
I am sure you know now but Tommy Conrad was shot outside his mothers house in 2005 on Lilly Pond Road, Pike NH. His case is listed on the New Hampshire state police cold case list next to Maura's. May be worth doing some digging?
I’m new to your podcast, bing watching and diving down the rabbit hole, as soon as I heard the name Tom Conrad googled it, found news footage and in the driveway of that clip sits a red pickup... something to look into?
John Smith really needs to calm down if he wants help from people. You go on this man's property and he gets all rude with the guy! He seriously says "The only reason I'm arguing with you...", later followed by, "I don't wanna argue with anybody". I think he wants to argue and enjoys it. When you want something from someone, simply being cordial can work wonders. Maybe the glow was a cell phone or even just the interior car light. Perhaps in the dark or with the viewing angle it looked like the light was only on the passenger side.
I have thought the same about the interior car light. It was pitch dark! Who would just sit there in the dark and not attempt to get light? Time to move on from this, really feel it's not relevant.
Tim & Lance should do the interviews not John, he was the reason that msn didn’t wanna talk. He was rude and bullying in demeanour. Tim(?) was responding nicely to the question asked by them, but obviously he didn’t like JOHN. He got to listen to people that was there, not push things into his own version. Even if he disagreed with the man (Tim? Westman) he should have kept quiet and let the guys doing a documentary do the talking. IMHO
This is unacceptable behavior. You don't TELL witnesses they're wrong & feed them what you believe is correct information. Completely destroys their statement, and some will even adopt your suggestions & beliefs. He's trying to change his mind with the 'professionals are smarter than you' game. Thankfully Mr. Westman isn't interested in what he's trying to sell. I've already seen the results of his witness tampering & fact feeding, and I'm not surprised to see video proof of how it's been done. A word of advice to you John, if you want to speak to people and get their story, let THEM talk! It's about getting THEIR story. It's not about trying to convince them to accept YOUR version. And you really should know better.
Makes things a little more clear on why a lot of witnesses & other people involved are done talking to people, if this is any indication of how they were treated. This is in no way directed at Tim & Lance who I've always seen being perfectly respectful to those they're interviewing & allow them to speak for themselves.
I'm getting a creepy feeling about this, guys. The Tommy Conrad email makes it sound that something a lot bigger than just Maura's disappearance is in motion. Be safe, lads, and happy gunpowder night!
23:40 There is something about this "thud" the Westmans heart. It could also have been another car that bumped into her, right? So they may both be right...
I know this is an old video but in regaurds to hearing the car accelerate, if the car is making a turn, as the drive tire loses traction on the road, this causes the engines RPM to increase which may sound like acceleration.
I know I'm way late and you probably got and answered this question already but I just stumbled across this case and I am captivated. But the email mentioning "Tommy"...If I'm remembering correctly didn't the psychic randomly bring up the same name or Tom and at that point you guys gave her the name Tim. Great job guys. I cant stop listening.
I would have been scared too if that happened to me. Glad you guys had John Smith with you, he seems like he's nice but not someone you would want to have on your bad side lol. Keep safe guys, hope you get to the bottom of this mystery.
Keep up the good work guys and looking forward to the documentary! Stay safe please. Just discovered your podcast a few days ago and am intrigued of course. I've listened to all the podcasts and have to say I had strong opinions on what happened when first listening but now am as mystified as everyone else. The only thing I can say at this point is that I disagree with Maura being a sociopath. Also, though my gut says the father didn't do anything to actively harm Maura, I do think he had an oddly close relationship with his daughter. Look up covert incest. And if Maura came from an alcoholic family, secrets are what the alcoholic family operate on. Bulimia also suggests abuse.
Wow, I honestly think Tim did see Maura’s car hit a tree. I really think he honestly saw that and believed it and for him to say her car accelerated to the tree like it was staged
I think Tim westman was right about the conditions and smith was wrong to argue with him there is a news report on here from wmur-tv featuring Kathleen Murray at the crash site 3 days after the disappearance of her sister and you can see there are no large snow banks only a foot like westman said and there are scars on the trees further down from the ribbon tree
If J Renner was sent these coordinates 18 months ago, I hope that 1. They were sent to the police, 2. That the lead was checked out, If these 2 steps were respected, that surely means that nothing was found there ? Why then did Renner give you guys this information after all this time ? Did he think that the cops hadn't checked ? I also agree that whilst these 'events' may seem freaky, and unnerving, that you are being trolled Some people use this case to be really sick
Killing moon is very occult 11 is Number of eMOtiON Monday Is MOONDAY Didn't she dissappear on a Monday or was last seen. Whoever is responsible is occult as fuck. Probably human trafficking. Tuesday is Mars. Planet of aggression. RAM In simplicity she was forced out of the know. Forced how or where...well.....
sucks you were unable to get to that GPS location :( perhaps no one will ever know whats there.. don't blame ya tho, keep yourselves safe first and foremost
I think the only two questions that need to be answered are: 1. Was it really Maura at the crash site? I always asked myself if they have shown Butch Atwood other pics than that of Maura. For me it is not 100% clear it was her. If it wasn't we can stop thinking what happened in NH and start looking at other places. Could it have been Kate, Julie or Sarah? 2. Did she get into a car at the crash site? If she did get into a vehicle I am sure she met foul play. But then it is unlikely we will ever get a solution to the mystery since she might have ended up 100 km away. If she did not get into a car I think she is somewhere around there and she hasn't simply been found yet. It is pretty common that missing persons are found close by even years or decades after initial searches. I would not be surprised if that would also be the case here. What are your guys take on it?
Oh, and its obvious that someone was watching while you were there, but, as an IT Professional, monitoring E-mail and or text/phone calls is VERY difficult, especially gmail.
Relatively new to the case and the podcast but just wanted to note that this episode is where you guys have started to lose me. Up until this point you have done an amazing job covering this case and made a very addictive podcast. I applaud and appreciate the time and energy you two have dedicated bringing light to the Murray's most unfortunate circumstances. However, It would of been far more productive on your end (Lance and Tim) to lose John Smith while interviewing Tim Westman. The aggression, arguing, and stand=offish body language that John held while talking to them deeply hindered what could have been a very insightful interview. There was no need for this type of behavior especially while open carrying a firearm, as you guys stated earlier. In my eyes without John there you two could have avoided the completely unnecessary arguments, regained control of the interview, the questions that were being asked and it would have been a more pleasant and insightful experience for everyone involved. John may like to throw things out there and shake things up to get a rise out of people and make them nervous but in this case what could that possibly have gained? Pretty Disappointing.
Wait a min ..... Tim’s very detailed about the whole accident scene and how her car was and what tree she hit etc. And her coming around the corner. I thought they only heard the sounds of the car. Faith looked out the window quick , stopped looking when police got there. Has there been any mention of time seeing the accident scene or accident itself or being outside afterward ?
I don't understand all this shit in the comments about the podcasters working with Renner to promote his book. First of all I've seen no blatant promotion or selling. Second of all why in the hell wouldn't they want to? There's no reason not to get more people interested in it. Stop acting like their (nonexistent) promotion of a book about the case is a bad. Why the hell do you give a shit? Also I like John Smith's style. He's not gonna let people bullshit him. I think if you guys stick with him you might actually get somewhere with the case.
I wish Renner could get more eyes on the Amy M case in Ohio and another one I think is linked to it in Fort Wayne Indiana April Marie Tinsley... 2 little girls almost identical in appearance and so many similarities in their cases its unreal !!!
LORD!!! what is it gonna take for this case tu b solved??? Its seemingly gonna remain a mystery but i bet everything i have that its a local involved and SOMEONE THERE R SOME PPL THERE KNOW SOMETHING!!! its quite obvious given their guardedness.....ITS RUNNING ME CRAZY n honestly...im seriously considering giving up. Itll seemingly NEVER get solved
At around 11:00, the anonymous writer uses the phrase "her victimology", which is a word that only a person in law enforcement would use. Unless you're a fan of crime shows like me, or a person trained in LE, you wouldn't know that specialized term. So clearly, this person knows something about what happened to her - or claims to.
I think John Smith was very disrespectful, you can have a different opinion with someone and just agree to disagree you don't have to be defensive and argumentative about it though.
I seriously hope you guys look up what a troll actually is before you make your documentary. Troll =/= somebody who disagrees with or dislikes you. Example: Smith is such an argumentative jerk. By saying this, I am voicing my dislike of his behavior. I am not being a troll. ("We're not here to harass you," he says right after he harasses the man. Shaking my head. And you wonder why people communicate anonymously when everyone you associate with is so rabid that they'll sink their teeth into anybody who doesn't prescribe to their theory.)
Hmm, unless she REALLY got on it, you wouldn't hear that car accelerate, especially if you're inside a home. I honestly think she disappeared of her own accord, then something happened. When you go off the map, there's a huge degree of vulnerability because you don't want to draw any attention, which includes hitch hiking, staying with or around people who may not be of the highest caliber, etc. I think she was crying after talking to her sister because she knew her sister was having a really hard time, and Maura was planning on disappearing, and knew it was going to be extremely hard on the family, and she probably felt terrible adding more stress to her sister already having a bad run at the moment.... She was also very beautiful, which attracts good and bad attention when you're by yourself. Sadly, with the insane amount of surveillance, and social media today, if she was still out there, we'd have proof by now.
I realize you are producing a documentary about Maura's disappearance. Was the trip to Lincoln to follow the coordinates mainly for the documentary, this podcast or both? I ask this because you have gone to the crash site and area before, what made this trip feel a little more unnerving??? Had you tried to speak to Mr. or Mrs. Westerman before? I think he may have been more forthcoming if Mr. Smith's tone had been different. It put Mr. Westerman on the defense and changed the entire atmosphere. As much investigating as Mr. Renner has done, why didn't he follow up on the email with the coordinates? Unfortunately, having so much of Mr. Renner's opinions, theories and theatrics has made the podcasts seem less genuine in finding the truth about what really happened to this young lady.!!
I know you guys are investigating a disappearance so I know it can be kinda creepy at times, but you guys seem to be startled a lot. Usually anybody that makes threats is a coward. There's a lot of people in this case that are playing games just to play games.
Not trying to scare you guys, but those coordinates sound like some kind of trap, I'd look at it from a safe distance or with a large team before diving in deeper. Stay safe guys!
Thanks +woobiehastelly. The police do know about it, but we're not sure if they checked it out. +kbmast1 The coordinates were not made up by Renner, they came in two years ago, and WE just decided now to check it out.
+woobiehastelly Poor Maura! All these egocentric men who want to interject themselves into her missing case just to promote their book or documentary. Sure, it gives people something to talk about on the Internet but how has any of this helped find Maura? All they've done is attach a lot of ugly, unverified rumors and speculation onto Maura's name. Cryptic emails? GPS coordinates luring them to a trap? This is just getting silly. Poor Maura and her family!
+Raina Really At least someone is talking about her! There are many victims that do not even get that. If anything this case is boring. And her family does not even care. They stop looking for her a long time ago.
+kbmast1 LOL i'm just now listening to these, but the first thing I thought when i heard about these "creepy emails" and phone calls was: Renner. You sound like a level-headed person, your kind isn't welcome here lol.
I don’t understand, when Westman claimed the wrong tree was marked, why you didn’t go inspect it for damage? I understand it’s 11 years later, but significant damage might still be observable. Also, were the outside phone numbers of the hotel rooms marked? Was there a way for someone not employed at the motel to look up the individual room numbers?
28:00 Tim is probably right here... she got into a car... but on the other hand this contradicts the sighting of the contractor who saw her 4 miles down the road and which I deem quite credible... What's your point on it?
Is it possible that John Smith was fucking with you guys? If he was that explains why he brought up the phone call in such a way that doesn’t cast suspicion on himself, but at the same time trying to get a reaction out of you guys
The more I read about this case, the more I think the whole accident was staged. I think Maura is probably alive and well. But I think with the documentary and the book by Renner coming out soon, I think that it will disrupt her current life. I won't feel bad if it does, but I don't think she ever anticipated people still looking into this case 10+ years later. If she does get "outed" sometime in the next year, I think it will be because she underestimated people's curiosity.
Wow. Stay safe guys. This IS real life, not just entertainment. Some of us just want to see justice prevail, not have more lives negatively affected. I was reminded of another unsolved case while listening to your podcast. I live on the west coast & a couple of years ago I did the 'Black Dahlia' tour around Los Angeles. I went to some of the Black Dahlia's old hang-outs. After peeling back several layers of her (erratic) life, it remained an unsatisfying 'Who done it?' One popular theory was the perpetrator was too powerful to touch, and had leverage against people, even law enforcement. (Leverage in the form of damaging information.) I don't think that's the situation in Maura's case, but it does make one wonder just who would be so threatened by a couple of honest/decent guys. 0_o
I really don't think you guys are being followed or your email monitored. Occam's Razor....again. You are far more likely being played by a simple troll - but someone you have let into your world and given far too much trust. John Smith seems nice enough but you reject any criticism of him as irrelevant. I think it goes to his overall credibility. There is something very odd about him. Renner is just as unreliable if not more so at this point. One of them or one of their associates is messing with you. I liked your podcast this week - especially the bit with Mr. Westman. He was forthright and direct. He said Maura hit a tree and it left a MARK. Why would he lie about that? I would have liked you guys to have asked him about Rick Forcier too...
@Tarik Pasic As I've posted before, it's at least possible that no living person knows what happened. Maybe Smith would be better off if he acknowledged that possibility. It's going to take either a lucky find or a guilty conscience to solve this.
Why does “John Smith” have to be such an @$$. “I don’t want to argue with you”…….. continues to argue with the person who was actually there! I still don’t understand why people don’t look into him more. One of the biggest red flags is someone unneededly inserting themselves into an investigation.
one more question when the person was talking about Maura's 'victimology' and you will be wasting your time looking at stuff before the accident. Is there something that could be found that people won't expect or like?
I like John but I don't know what the hell he is doing in that Westman interview. You cannot tell a witness what they saw. You have to make your theory fit the facts not vice versa. No wonder Tim didn't want an interview if that's how people treat them. Time to re-evaluate John not dig your heels in.
Okay not trying to be disrespectful in the least, and I understand that you guys are living through this(unlike me) but couldn't all of these be the work of some troll? I understand James Renner is a well known person in the areas of missing persons, but do people actually involved in the case even know about this podcast? I'm sure its a possibility, but again it seems unlikely that someone covering something up about Maura would contact you. Why would they risk themselves getting caught if it was true? Also, I'd like to know what you guide thought that morning about going on the hike. You said you had received phone calls in the hotel rooms but how exactly did you tell your guide you were cancelling the hike? What was his reaction? Did he he think you were over reacting, or did he seemed relieved? I'm just looking for a fuller picture in my head.Thanks
+wishkohaku The guide was hoping we postponed the hike after being with us when the emails came through. He understood our concerns. We called it off that night before the phone calls, and he was relieved. Yes it could be the work of some troll. And likely is. We've been told the Murray family is aware of the podcast. We have no idea if the family is covering something up about Maura, we're not trying to air anyone's dirty laundry. We're trying to get the truth out there, so we hope the family can see the benefit in that and the additional eyeballs on Maura's disappearance.
+Missing Maura Murray Respectfully, for someone who wants to get "the truth" out there, why include so much rumor and speculation about Maura? Why not do your own investigation, separate from Renner or at least ask Renner to verify his information before just repeating it like it's true? Maura's missing case is turning into a very bad rendition of a Hardy Boys Mystery but this is real life for Maura's family and friends.
Fred absolutely had a hand in her disappearance, he provided money, and also, I think their relationship was unnatural. Why would a father be so involved in his daughters college life? every other weekend? not fucking normal.
J Cassidy No, I don’t agree. Some people have a close relationship with their parents and there is nothing wrong with that. It’s doesn’t mean their relationship is “unnatural”. Perhaps Fred was protective because he knew how easy it was for Maura to get into trouble. She apparently had a problem with alcohol and had been thrown out of West Point for stealing. She was also prone to depression and some say she was bulimic. I’d be checking up on a kid like that too.
I think it’s unnatural to insinuate Fred and Maura had an incestuous relationship. Fred must have been r*ping Maura bc he visited her frequently? Fred lived within driving distance of Maura’s university. Maura and Fred had a close relationship and enjoyed running and hiking. Fred was divorced and living alone. Maura enjoyed his company, why wouldn’t he frequently visit? I would have been THRILLED if my father wanted to spend time with me in college.
+Pasic TP Obviously. But it, seems almost everyone connected to, this, case has something shady about them. Even after all of, these years it is crazy how this,case isn't any closer to being solved. I understand there are other, cases,that still have not been solved after much more than 10-12, years. This whole case has an aura of 'if you solve this' you will be sorry' around it. I truly hope this case gets solved someday.
+Pasic TP yeah possibly. I stay interested for those reasons and because it has gone on for so long. And the 'shady' people mentioned before. As well as hoping in some way some how she is ok. Or if not that her family will get closure.
I don't see how these pranks are being taken seriously and people believe that anyone truly connected to the case is doing this. Just seems like people trying to fuck with you guys just for kicks.
Yeah it could have been something as simple as a check engine light since it was so incredibly dark out there and her car wasn't running right. I've been listening.....late as well but some of these episodes are just ridiculous, out of this world speculation. It makes you think.....are these people who refuse to talk just pissed off and annoyed with the spectical of it all or are they ALL covering up something sinister that may or may not have occurred to a girl with a shady past whom most of her college buddies barely knew (being as she just transferred to UMass)? Personally, I wouldn't cover for shit.....not if I had only known Maura for a few months....NOT if I had witnessed a crime and not if I knew first hand that she left on her own accord and innocent people were being treated as suspects in a crime that hadn't even occurred. My 1st theory: She hit Petrit Vasi and her dad covered it up while she fled (why hasn't she been spotted in today's age of nosy social media armchair detectives??) 2nd theory: She got into a vehicle down the road, was driven out of town against her will and was murdered somewhere outside of MA making those goose chase null and void since everyone is looking in the wrong location.
Multiple people who owned that year of Saturn have posted their experience with that car. There is some sort of red light in the dash or on the dash and that explains the red glow.
This is a very illuminating episode. We hear directly from the first witness to lay eyes on the crash that a) Murray's car hit a tree, b) it's a different tree than everyone thinks it is, and c) the crash left a mark on the tree. We simultaneously see John Smith's theory of the disappearance implode. In Episode 14 Mr. Smith said "the Saturn did not hit the pine tree at the corner," "there were no scars on that pine tree," and "there would have been a scar." "It's my 100 percent big question of the whole thing," Mr. Smith says: "Why we were told in the beginning that the Saturn hit the tree, when it is obvious that it did not." We now see Mr. Smith was barking up the wrong tree.
I loved how Tim Westman stood up for himself here!
Me too!
do you know what a tree does to a cars hood? lol obv not
missed out on a great opportunity to get him to talk
Folks who are not respectful are going to get blocked.
I respectfully disagree. This podcast has done a great job of focusing attention back on the case and has helped the Murray's to gain more signatures for the petition to get the FBI involved (whether or not it's effective).
+Jeremy Maddux well, there's so many cases that go cold and forgotten about bc no one cares to keep the case in the media. This podcast keeps Mauras name out there in hopes she'll be found and not forgotten about! If only we could make episodes like these for all missing people! I think Mauras family should be grateful for this podcast. At least thats how I feel..
+Jeremy Maddux well, there's so many cases that go cold and forgotten about bc no one cares to keep the case in the media. This podcast keeps Mauras name out there in hopes she'll be found and not forgotten about! If only we could make episodes like these for all missing people! I think Mauras family should be grateful for this podcast. At least thats how I feel..
Has anyone investigated whether there is any connection among tommy conrad's murder, maura's disappearance, and james conrad's (or his ex-wfe's connection) to tommy conrad and rick forcier?
Shy Mirror It’s always better to keep these cases in the public eye.
If you're gathering information, you need to listen to what people are saying instead of telling them their recollection is wrong. Promoting your own opinions isn't going to solve anything. No wonder the locals don't want to be interviewed regarding Maura. Tom Smith's demeanor is a hindrance not an asset.
this podcast is such a beautiful microcosm. the deeper you go, the more painfully convoluted it gets.
Accident reconstruction is not always correct. When my Brother was hit and killed by a drunk driver, crossing the street to his house, there were witnesses and the Police got the whole thing completely wrong. Even to the direction he was walking. The guy was there and saw the accident. That should hold some weight I would think.
I'm listening to this way after you first released it. IMO John Smith is passive aggressive. He thinks he knows everything about accident reconstruction when it was only a police officer for three years. What, was he a specialist? Also he came off as a complete bully to Tim Westman. I think he's taking you down the wrong road.
I completely agree. John Smith's theory of what happened that night is insane and ignores certain facts that you can't ignore. As a local, it feels like he has an axe to grind with some of the individuals involved in this case.
All I can say is that I am totally baffled by your affinity for this man.
If you want to get an interview with some one you should ask John not to argue with them before you get the interview. Not helpful. Just let the man talk.
Right? I don’t understand arguing with what someone saw. He’s answered that same question, the same way, for almost 12 years. No matter how much you argue, he’s not going to change his answer now. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn’t change it and risk being called a liar. He said what he believed happened, if you don’t think he’s credible, than that’s fine, don’t believe him, but don’t try to change what he believes he saw.... I really didn’t like how he handled that AT ALL. Especially when the other two are so respectful and just let them talk and listen and then say later whether they believe each thing and why or why not. John should take a lesson from them!
@@meredithpase No, he _did_ change his answer from John's earlier interview with him.
Still, even though IMHO John Smith knows more about this case than anybody else, it's true that when you interview somebody, you've got to get the full version of what they say, and if you want to challenge something, you find subtle ways to do it that don't seem confrontational or put somebody on their guard.
They argue with the people the interview and call people names and spread rumors as facts and wonder why people relevant to this won't talk to them. They are low level unqualified investigators that attempt to find and use only evidence that supports their theories and all else is considered unbelievable.
Hi there,
My wife and I have discovered your podcast in the last week and like many people it's peaked our interest.
Although we have been watching some of them out of order, I believe in one of the previous episodes where you were speaking with John Smith, one of the bigger questions you guys wondered was why Faith had been let off the phone from 911 earlier than was standard practise. It's too bad you guys never got a chance to ask Tim that question on the day.
I think it's interesting what Tim Westman had to say at the end. you have to be really smart too disappear like that.
I am sure you know now but Tommy Conrad was shot outside his mothers house in 2005 on Lilly Pond Road, Pike NH. His case is listed on the New Hampshire state police cold case list next to Maura's. May be worth doing some digging?
definitely, you guys going to just mention that then not follow up?
I’m new to your podcast, bing watching and diving down the rabbit hole, as soon as I heard the name Tom Conrad googled it, found news footage and in the driveway of that clip sits a red pickup... something to look into?
As a certain tv character is always saying: coincidences didn't exist.
I can't tell whether something bigger is happening or whether someone is just trolling you. I could believe either.
John Smith really needs to calm down if he wants help from people. You go on this man's property and he gets all rude with the guy! He seriously says "The only reason I'm arguing with you...", later followed by, "I don't wanna argue with anybody". I think he wants to argue and enjoys it. When you want something from someone, simply being cordial can work wonders.
Maybe the glow was a cell phone or even just the interior car light. Perhaps in the dark or with the viewing angle it looked like the light was only on the passenger side.
I have thought the same about the interior car light. It was pitch dark! Who would just sit there in the dark and not attempt to get light? Time to move on from this, really feel it's not relevant.
Tim & Lance should do the interviews not John, he was the reason that msn didn’t wanna talk. He was rude and bullying in demeanour. Tim(?) was responding nicely to the question asked by them, but obviously he didn’t like JOHN. He got to listen to people that was there, not push things into his own version. Even if he disagreed with the man (Tim? Westman) he should have kept quiet and let the guys doing a documentary do the talking. IMHO
This is unacceptable behavior. You don't TELL witnesses they're wrong & feed them what you believe is correct information. Completely destroys their statement, and some will even adopt your suggestions & beliefs. He's trying to change his mind with the 'professionals are smarter than you' game. Thankfully Mr. Westman isn't interested in what he's trying to sell. I've already seen the results of his witness tampering & fact feeding, and I'm not surprised to see video proof of how it's been done. A word of advice to you John, if you want to speak to people and get their story, let THEM talk! It's about getting THEIR story. It's not about trying to convince them to accept YOUR version. And you really should know better.
Makes things a little more clear on why a lot of witnesses & other people involved are done talking to people, if this is any indication of how they were treated. This is in no way directed at Tim & Lance who I've always seen being perfectly respectful to those they're interviewing & allow them to speak for themselves.
Exactly!
But who's to say that persons story is the truth? And not something fabricated.. 🤦🏾♂️
I'm getting a creepy feeling about this, guys. The Tommy Conrad email makes it sound that something a lot bigger than just Maura's disappearance is in motion. Be safe, lads, and happy gunpowder night!
23:40 There is something about this "thud" the Westmans heart. It could also have been another car that bumped into her, right? So they may both be right...
I know this is an old video but in regaurds to hearing the car accelerate, if the car is making a turn, as the drive tire loses traction on the road, this causes the engines RPM to increase which may sound like acceleration.
I know I'm way late and you probably got and answered this question already but I just stumbled across this case and I am captivated. But the email mentioning "Tommy"...If I'm remembering correctly didn't the psychic randomly bring up the same name or Tom and at that point you guys gave her the name Tim. Great job guys. I cant stop listening.
John smith was combative and argumentative and it did nothing for him to be that way. not sure why he felt the need to be that aggressive with the guy
It doesn't keep popping up, YOU keep bringing it up! You have gotten answer many times and you refuse to accept it.
What are you talking about?
I have been keeping up with this case since beginning.
I would have been scared too if that happened to me. Glad you guys had John Smith with you, he seems like he's nice but not someone you would want to have on your bad side lol. Keep safe guys, hope you get to the bottom of this mystery.
John Smith antagonized him
Keep up the good work guys and looking forward to the documentary! Stay safe please.
Just discovered your podcast a few days ago and am intrigued of course. I've listened to all the podcasts and have to say I had strong opinions on what happened when first listening but now am as mystified as everyone else. The only thing I can say at this point is that I disagree with Maura being a sociopath. Also, though my gut says the father didn't do anything to actively harm Maura, I do think he had an oddly close relationship with his daughter. Look up covert incest. And if Maura came from an alcoholic family, secrets are what the alcoholic family operate on. Bulimia also suggests abuse.
Wow, I honestly think Tim did see Maura’s car hit a tree. I really think he honestly saw that and believed it and for him to say her car accelerated to the tree like it was staged
I think Tim westman was right about the conditions and smith was wrong to argue with him there is a news report on here from wmur-tv featuring Kathleen Murray at the crash site 3 days after the disappearance of her sister and you can see there are no large snow banks only a foot like westman said and there are scars on the trees further down from the ribbon tree
If J Renner was sent these coordinates 18 months ago, I hope that
1. They were sent to the police,
2. That the lead was checked out,
If these 2 steps were respected, that surely means that nothing was found there ?
Why then did Renner give you guys this information after all this time ?
Did he think that the cops hadn't checked ?
I also agree that whilst these 'events' may seem freaky, and unnerving, that you are being trolled
Some people use this case to be really sick
. another possibility: her car was thumped by another on-coming vehicle .
Love the mysterious music, It's very sad..
Too much like funeral music.
i'm binge listening to the podcast and i'm shocked
Do you think 001 SUV Cruiser hit Maura's car and was it ever tested for chips or or paint stains?!??
Echo and the Bunnymen is a great band "The Killing Moon" is a haunting tune.
joydivsion77 lmao. Trolls. They don't scare or intimidate anyone. Sorry.
Killing moon is very occult
11 is Number of eMOtiON
Monday
Is MOONDAY
Didn't she dissappear on a Monday or was last seen. Whoever is responsible is occult as fuck. Probably human trafficking. Tuesday is Mars. Planet of aggression. RAM
In simplicity she was forced out of the know. Forced how or where...well.....
John bringing up a suspicious phone call first should make you suspect him more, not less
sucks you were unable to get to that GPS location :( perhaps no one will ever know whats there.. don't blame ya tho, keep yourselves safe first and foremost
I'm a huge fan! Greetings from the Netherlands!
I guess John Smith's belligerence isn't limited to the internet. He got awfully argumentative here.
I think the only two questions that need to be answered are:
1. Was it really Maura at the crash site?
I always asked myself if they have shown Butch Atwood other pics than that of Maura. For me it is not 100% clear it was her. If it wasn't we can stop thinking what happened in NH and start looking at other places. Could it have been Kate, Julie or Sarah?
2. Did she get into a car at the crash site?
If she did get into a vehicle I am sure she met foul play. But then it is unlikely we will ever get a solution to the mystery since she might have ended up 100 km away. If she did not get into a car I think she is somewhere around there and she hasn't simply been found yet. It is pretty common that missing persons are found close by even years or decades after initial searches. I would not be surprised if that would also be the case here.
What are your guys take on it?
She wasn't there
The looks.of the scene is too setup
Like a stage
Like pro wrestling
He said she said.
Fuck
Oh, and its obvious that someone was watching while you were there, but, as an IT Professional, monitoring E-mail and or text/phone calls is VERY difficult, especially gmail.
Probably someone in LE.
Andy Roxburgh Lmao! thatd be funny
Relatively new to the case and the podcast but just wanted to note that this episode is where you guys have started to lose me. Up until this point you have done an amazing job covering this case and made a very addictive podcast. I applaud and appreciate the time and energy you two have dedicated bringing light to the Murray's most unfortunate circumstances.
However, It would of been far more productive on your end (Lance and Tim) to lose John Smith while interviewing Tim Westman. The aggression, arguing, and stand=offish body language that John held while talking to them deeply hindered what could have been a very insightful interview. There was no need for this type of behavior especially while open carrying a firearm, as you guys stated earlier.
In my eyes without John there you two could have avoided the completely unnecessary arguments, regained control of the interview, the questions that were being asked and it would have been a more pleasant and insightful experience for everyone involved.
John may like to throw things out there and shake things up to get a rise out of people and make them nervous but in this case what could that possibly have gained?
Pretty Disappointing.
Haha I disagree I think even without him these guys would have butchered it
Omg guns are so scareeee
has anyone done one of those age progressions to see what she would look like this many years later?
There was a 2017 documentary that did one. Not convinced these are very helpful tho. Too many factors.
Wait a min ..... Tim’s very detailed about the whole accident scene and how her car was and what tree she hit etc. And her coming around the corner. I thought they only heard the sounds of the car. Faith looked out the window quick , stopped looking when police got there. Has there been any mention of time seeing the accident scene or accident itself or being outside afterward ?
Yeah I'm lost to lol
I don't understand all this shit in the comments about the podcasters working with Renner to promote his book. First of all I've seen no blatant promotion or selling. Second of all why in the hell wouldn't they want to? There's no reason not to get more people interested in it. Stop acting like their (nonexistent) promotion of a book about the case is a bad. Why the hell do you give a shit?
Also I like John Smith's style. He's not gonna let people bullshit him. I think if you guys stick with him you might actually get somewhere with the case.
I wish Renner could get more eyes on the Amy M case in Ohio and another one I think is linked to it in Fort Wayne Indiana April Marie Tinsley... 2 little girls almost identical in appearance and so many similarities in their cases its unreal !!!
The April Tinsley case was solved.
LORD!!! what is it gonna take for this case tu b solved??? Its seemingly gonna remain a mystery but i bet everything i have that its a local involved and SOMEONE THERE R SOME PPL THERE KNOW SOMETHING!!! its quite obvious given their guardedness.....ITS RUNNING ME CRAZY n honestly...im seriously considering giving up. Itll seemingly NEVER get solved
At around 11:00, the anonymous writer uses the phrase "her victimology", which is a word that only a person in law enforcement would use. Unless you're a fan of crime shows like me, or a person trained in LE, you wouldn't know that specialized term. So clearly, this person knows something about what happened to her - or claims to.
Why is episode 18 private? Where can I go to watch it?? And why cant i find any of the beginning episodes of MMM PODCAST on spotify anymore??
I think John Smith was very disrespectful, you can have a different opinion with someone and just agree to disagree you don't have to be defensive and argumentative about it though.
I seriously hope you guys look up what a troll actually is before you make your documentary. Troll =/= somebody who disagrees with or dislikes you.
Example: Smith is such an argumentative jerk. By saying this, I am voicing my dislike of his behavior. I am not being a troll.
("We're not here to harass you," he says right after he harasses the man. Shaking my head. And you wonder why people communicate anonymously when everyone you associate with is so rabid that they'll sink their teeth into anybody who doesn't prescribe to their theory.)
Were police alerted about these coordinates and these emails? Shouldn't they follow up on all of this?
when you call the police don't they record every call? I want to hear those calls...
Hmm, unless she REALLY got on it, you wouldn't hear that car accelerate, especially if you're inside a home. I honestly think she disappeared of her own accord, then something happened. When you go off the map, there's a huge degree of vulnerability because you don't want to draw any attention, which includes hitch hiking, staying with or around people who may not be of the highest caliber, etc. I think she was crying after talking to her sister because she knew her sister was having a really hard time, and Maura was planning on disappearing, and knew it was going to be extremely hard on the family, and she probably felt terrible adding more stress to her sister already having a bad run at the moment.... She was also very beautiful, which attracts good and bad attention when you're by yourself. Sadly, with the insane amount of surveillance, and social media today, if she was still out there, we'd have proof by now.
Pure brilliance........
I realize you are producing a documentary about Maura's disappearance. Was the trip to Lincoln to follow the coordinates mainly for the documentary, this podcast or both? I ask this because you have gone to the crash site and area before, what made this trip feel a little more unnerving??? Had you tried to speak to Mr. or Mrs. Westerman before? I think he may have been more forthcoming if Mr. Smith's tone had been different. It put Mr. Westerman on the defense and changed the entire atmosphere. As much investigating as Mr. Renner has done, why didn't he follow up on the email with the coordinates? Unfortunately, having so much of Mr. Renner's opinions, theories and theatrics has made the podcasts seem less genuine in finding the truth about what really happened to this young lady.!!
Yep I don't think her car hit a tree, a car hit her car , possibly when she was sitting in it. Maybe a SUV !!!!!
I know you guys are investigating a disappearance so I know it can be kinda creepy at times, but you guys seem to be startled a lot. Usually anybody that makes threats is a coward. There's a lot of people in this case that are playing games just to play games.
Not trying to scare you guys, but those coordinates sound like some kind of trap, I'd look at it from a safe distance or with a large team before diving in deeper.
Stay safe guys!
+kbmast1 Better safe than sorry. And yeah, the police should know about this.
Thanks +woobiehastelly. The police do know about it, but we're not sure if they checked it out. +kbmast1 The coordinates were not made up by Renner, they came in two years ago, and WE just decided now to check it out.
+woobiehastelly Poor Maura! All these egocentric men who want to interject themselves into her missing case just to promote their book or documentary. Sure, it gives people something to talk about on the Internet but how has any of this helped find Maura? All they've done is attach a lot of ugly, unverified rumors and speculation onto Maura's name. Cryptic emails? GPS coordinates luring them to a trap? This is just getting silly. Poor Maura and her family!
+Raina Really At least someone is talking about her! There are many victims that do not even get that. If anything this case is boring. And her family does not even care. They stop looking for her a long time ago.
+kbmast1 LOL i'm just now listening to these, but the first thing I thought when i heard about these "creepy emails" and phone calls was: Renner. You sound like a level-headed person, your kind isn't welcome here lol.
has there ever been an experiment with the glow of a cell phone inside a car parked at the same distance from westermans house?
Great question.
I don’t understand, when Westman claimed the wrong tree was marked, why you didn’t go inspect it for damage? I understand it’s 11 years later, but significant damage might still be observable.
Also, were the outside phone numbers of the hotel rooms marked? Was there a way for someone not employed at the motel to look up the individual room numbers?
28:00
Tim is probably right here... she got into a car... but on the other hand this contradicts the sighting of the contractor who saw her 4 miles down the road and which I deem quite credible...
What's your point on it?
john smith has no idea what he is talking about.
Is it possible that John Smith was fucking with you guys? If he was that explains why he brought up the phone call in such a way that doesn’t cast suspicion on himself, but at the same time trying to get a reaction out of you guys
The more I read about this case, the more I think the whole accident was staged. I think Maura is probably alive and well. But I think with the documentary and the book by Renner coming out soon, I think that it will disrupt her current life. I won't feel bad if it does, but I don't think she ever anticipated people still looking into this case 10+ years later. If she does get "outed" sometime in the next year, I think it will be because she underestimated people's curiosity.
Will Doherty unfortunately it's been 3 years since your post and we still don't know what happened but hopefully soon we will.
5 years and still nothing....
Six years now and nothing.
Who did the reconstruction?
Wow. Stay safe guys. This IS real life, not just entertainment. Some of us just want to see justice prevail, not have more lives negatively affected.
I was reminded of another unsolved case while listening to your podcast. I live on the west coast & a couple of years ago I did the 'Black Dahlia' tour around Los Angeles. I went to some of the Black Dahlia's old hang-outs. After peeling back several layers of her (erratic) life, it remained an unsatisfying 'Who done it?'
One popular theory was the perpetrator was too powerful to touch, and had leverage against people, even law enforcement. (Leverage in the form of damaging information.) I don't think that's the situation in Maura's case, but it does make one wonder just who would be so threatened by a couple of honest/decent guys. 0_o
I really don't think you guys are being followed or your email monitored. Occam's Razor....again. You are far more likely being played by a simple troll - but someone you have let into your world and given far too much trust. John Smith seems nice enough but you reject any criticism of him as irrelevant. I think it goes to his overall credibility. There is something very odd about him. Renner is just as unreliable if not more so at this point. One of them or one of their associates is messing with you.
I liked your podcast this week - especially the bit with Mr. Westman. He was forthright and direct. He said Maura hit a tree and it left a MARK. Why would he lie about that? I would have liked you guys to have asked him about Rick Forcier too...
Have a look at his twitter feed! He seems over-the-top aggressive.
@Tarik Pasic A bit too obsessed with this case. Actually more than a bit!
@Tarik Pasic As I've posted before, it's at least possible that no living person knows what happened. Maybe Smith would be better off if he acknowledged that possibility. It's going to take either a lucky find or a guilty conscience to solve this.
You guys lost me when you started giving hours of tape to John Smith. He's a nut, and he's not helping your credibility.
Why does “John Smith” have to be such an @$$. “I don’t want to argue with you”…….. continues to argue with the person who was actually there! I still don’t understand why people don’t look into him more. One of the biggest red flags is someone unneededly inserting themselves into an investigation.
Could it of been her cell phone on the dash or a flash light?
one more question when the person was talking about Maura's 'victimology' and you will be wasting your time looking at stuff before the accident. Is there something that could be found that people won't expect or like?
I like John but I don't know what the hell he is doing in that Westman interview. You cannot tell a witness what they saw. You have to make your theory fit the facts not vice versa. No wonder Tim didn't want an interview if that's how people treat them. Time to re-evaluate John not dig your heels in.
Okay not trying to be disrespectful in the least, and I understand that you guys are living through this(unlike me) but couldn't all of these be the work of some troll? I understand James Renner is a well known person in the areas of missing persons, but do people actually involved in the case even know about this podcast? I'm sure its a possibility, but again it seems unlikely that someone covering something up about Maura would contact you. Why would they risk themselves getting caught if it was true?
Also, I'd like to know what you guide thought that morning about going on the hike. You said you had received phone calls in the hotel rooms but how exactly did you tell your guide you were cancelling the hike? What was his reaction? Did he he think you were over reacting, or did he seemed relieved? I'm just looking for a fuller picture in my head.Thanks
+wishkohaku The guide was hoping we postponed the hike after being with us when the emails came through. He understood our concerns. We called it off that night before the phone calls, and he was relieved.
Yes it could be the work of some troll. And likely is.
We've been told the Murray family is aware of the podcast. We have no idea if the family is covering something up about Maura, we're not trying to air anyone's dirty laundry. We're trying to get the truth out there, so we hope the family can see the benefit in that and the additional eyeballs on Maura's disappearance.
+Missing Maura Murray Respectfully, for someone who wants to get "the truth" out there, why include so much rumor and speculation about Maura? Why not do your own investigation, separate from Renner or at least ask Renner to verify his information before just repeating it like it's true? Maura's missing case is turning into a very bad rendition of a Hardy Boys Mystery but this is real life for Maura's family and friends.
It definitely sounds like this miles wainwright had something to do with it
Didn't your psychic mention a Tom?
Tim *
Fred absolutely had a hand in her disappearance, he provided money, and also, I think their relationship was unnatural. Why would a father be so involved in his daughters college life? every other weekend? not fucking normal.
J Cassidy No, I don’t agree. Some people have a close relationship with their parents and there is nothing wrong with that. It’s doesn’t mean their relationship is “unnatural”.
Perhaps Fred was protective because he knew how easy it was for Maura to get into trouble. She apparently had a problem with alcohol and had been thrown out of West Point for stealing. She was also prone to depression and some say she was bulimic. I’d be checking up on a kid like that too.
I disagree and it's unfortunate that it seems weird for a father and daughter to be close.
I think it’s unnatural to insinuate Fred and Maura had an incestuous relationship.
Fred must have been r*ping Maura bc he visited her frequently?
Fred lived within driving distance of Maura’s university.
Maura and Fred had a close relationship and enjoyed running and hiking.
Fred was divorced and living alone.
Maura enjoyed his company, why wouldn’t he frequently visit?
I would have been THRILLED if my father wanted to spend time with me in college.
@@amandanegrete1306 That was a long time ago. I no longer hold that opinion.
They just found bone fragments in lincoln nh
wow! seriously freaky! why do you think this person or persons is messing with you? why wouldn't anyone want this to be solved?
+Pasic TP Obviously. But it, seems almost everyone connected to, this, case has something shady about them. Even after all of, these years it is crazy how this,case isn't any closer to being solved. I understand there are other, cases,that still have not been solved after much more than 10-12, years. This whole case has an aura of 'if you solve this' you will be sorry' around it. I truly hope this case gets solved someday.
+Pasic TP I hope this case gets solved hopefully sooner than later.
+Pasic TP I can understand that. What is it about this case that you think keeps people interested after all of these years?!?
+Pasic TP yeah possibly. I stay interested for those reasons and because it has gone on for so long. And the 'shady' people mentioned before. As well as hoping in some way some how she is ok. Or if not that her family will get closure.
I don't see how these pranks are being taken seriously and people believe that anyone truly connected to the case is doing this. Just seems like people trying to fuck with you guys just for kicks.
Wish u guys would stop cussing. It takes away from ur credibility
So true.
Maybe the glow was from a lighter ?
I'm 3 years late but I think you're making too much of the 'glow'.
Yeah it could have been something as simple as a check engine light since it was so incredibly dark out there and her car wasn't running right. I've been listening.....late as well but some of these episodes are just ridiculous, out of this world speculation. It makes you think.....are these people who refuse to talk just pissed off and annoyed with the spectical of it all or are they ALL covering up something sinister that may or may not have occurred to a girl with a shady past whom most of her college buddies barely knew (being as she just transferred to UMass)? Personally, I wouldn't cover for shit.....not if I had only known Maura for a few months....NOT if I had witnessed a crime and not if I knew first hand that she left on her own accord and innocent people were being treated as suspects in a crime that hadn't even occurred. My 1st theory: She hit Petrit Vasi and her dad covered it up while she fled (why hasn't she been spotted in today's age of nosy social media armchair detectives??) 2nd theory: She got into a vehicle down the road, was driven out of town against her will and was murdered somewhere outside of MA making those goose chase null and void since everyone is looking in the wrong location.
Multiple people who owned that year of Saturn have posted their experience with that car. There is some sort of red light in the dash or on the dash and that explains the red glow.