20 // Maura Murray - Part 20
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- This is part two of Lance Reenstierna and Tim Pilleri's chat with John Smith. He's been called Truth Seeker online and he lives in the White Mountains. He's searched with the Murray family and has spent 11 and a half years trying to find out what happened to Maura.
We cover the rag in the tailpipe and more from Fred Murray's perspective.
Please email MissingMauraMurray@gmail.com for information or if you want to contribute to this podcast or documentary.
David Whelan's article in VICE: www.vice.com/re...
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Check out our website www.mauramurray... for more information on the movie.
Please contact the New Hampshire State Police for any leads in their ongoing investigation. Telephone: (603) 223-3860 or (800) NAB-DOPE, Email: isb@dos.nh.gov
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Why don’t people make a HUGE FING BIG DEAL about 001? Omg! It fing kills me. It honest to god seems like the least considered theory of the more rational theories. It was 001. That’s it, I feel it in my bones and her DNA was in the back...that’s why it was out of service. God!!!!! This case consumes my life
You'd be surprised how fast 💨 12 years passes with the blink of an eye. Hell Im still in disbelief my oldest child will be 17 in 2months. 17yrs and it literally feels like I was going through labour with him just yesterday! I can't imagine how it feels to not have closure.
I'm new to listening and often get confused.....but the lack of witnesses BAFFLES me......I know any neighborhood I've EVER lived in, when there is an accident EVERYONE gets nosy and stands at windows....stands outside.......these witnesses put themselves there and they CALL 911 but they NEVER go out to make sure she is ok? they NEVER see where she went......COME ON..... IMPOSSIBLE.......I REALLY have a feeling people in that area are DEFINITELY hiding something.....I'm NOT a paranoid person but.....idk man......I personally won't be stopping up around that town alone anytime in my lifetime.....everything seems strange/spooky there.......some kind of small town cover up/secret?! I just pray some day soon we have answers, whether she had a rocky past or not her family still deserves closure......and I think the key is in that town......SOMEONE SAW SOMETHING........it's in our human nature to be nosy on Lookers and it sounds like there WAS but how convenient it was ONLY before or AFTER?! NO ONE saw where she went or what happened to her?! IDK I'm nobody...... these are JUST my thoughts.......I will continue to follow and pray!
SUV 001
I don't think this is actually related to anything... but is there a chance that the damaged box of wine could have possibly hit the windshield instead of her head hitting the windshield? That would explain why the box was damaged in the first place. But again, this is such a tiny detail that probably doesn't matter, it's just a thought that keeps coming up for me.
+Jillian DeFreitas Absolutely- in fact, I don't believe her head hit the windshield at all. There's been some pretty detailed analysis about this, and very few people think the crack was from her head. Based on where she crashed (into the snow bank) the estimated speed, the fact her airbags deployed, and the type of car...it's very unlikely it was her head. There's no evidence it was. Usually with that you can see some type of mark or outline...either from the oil from our skin, makekup (if a woman is wearing any type of foundation or powder there's generally a bit of residue), and lots of times there will be hair, blood, or even a bit of skin. I definitely think (if it wasn't cracked before)- it was from an object in the car. It would make sense it was the wine because of both the damage, and the fact it was splattered all over the car. The other interesting thing is people can't decide if it was actually the inside of the glass that cracked, or the outside. I'd love to hear from someone who's actually involved in the case and has seen the car the answer to this. Add in the fact that's one heck of a crack- I'd assume it would cause a fairly apparent injury or disorientation, and there's no evidence she was injured- in fact Butch said she wasn't and appeared and was speaking totally normal, just looked cold.
I don't think they ever said her head hit the windshield?she would be been knocked out
I believe the box of wine was found behind the drivers seat so not sure how it’d hit the windshield then wind up there
Someone said it was caused by a police man watch hitting the windshield...i.e. The carpet being squished to one side of the car floor as if a violent struggled happened...Has anyone looked into that fact...?????
Was Jeff Williams ever check for scratches or any marks on his. body..Was finger prints every taken both inside and out side of the car...and why did the POLICE go to the private garage and tear apart MAURA 'S belongings 💯 all proof of any police officers being at fault was erased when they entered that car
Did the cadaver dogs go in and around the car? Sounds to me like the neighbor saw activity at the trunk because maybe someone could have been putting her body (dead or alive) in the trunk...which could explain why the police officer told everyone to leave. The more I learn, the more confused I get. Y'all may cover this in an episode that I haven't yet watched so forgive me if this has already been discussed.
I'm wondering if she was put in the trunk and taken to the mechanics personal garage where he disposed of her body. Lord, I hope this gets solved soon! poor girl 😭
Never thought of that one ..the police could have shown up later and disposed of the body...
But wouldn't someone notice how she's been killed? I mean for such a rual area she was in the one spot a lot of people actually noticed her. I guess if someone put her alive in the trunk she would have screamed.
@@Sookielein not if she was unconscious.
I believe the drunk cop heard it on the scanner before anyone got there
OK..... anyone else freaked out a bit by this episode....? Wow... 2 things.
If you listen to other #TrueCrime Podcasts you will understand these... not for any cryptic reasoning.
Geez, finish this sentence: "You know you listen to too many #TrueCrimePodcasts when ..."
Q 1/ name ring any bells: "mike lavoie"
CREEPY ....
And next
Q 2/ .... Fred gets into car & moves it down driveway a bit outside, from garage, right? When Fred gets into the Drivers Seat, does he remember the Position of that Drivers Seat?
RE: podcast of 'Tara Grinstead' Case
What an episode guys! Keep up the talking and working this through. Someone knows something and we can only hope they'll talk someday. I side with John Smith when he says that...
thanks guys you're doing great work.
I would like to say that I really appreciate how much work you out into these podcasts and how much it is appreciated. I live about twenty miles away from where Maura disappeared and I think of her now every time I am in the Woodville area. I am astonished at the fact that her car was off loaded at the home of the towing company's owner and left in his personal garage for four days. Both the Haverhill and the state police should have treated it as evidence from the moment of their getting a call about the case. As for the tow operator unloading the car from the truck, it is common practice to unload a vehicle so as to free up the truck in case of another call that evening. But it should have been unloaded and secured at the site of the business, not as the personal home of the owner. This raises so many red flags in this case it's not even remotely funny.
Thanks again for doing all you can to try and find out what happened to this young lady!
For some reason John makes it seem as though Fred is distraught that the evidence was mishandled. So Lance, Tim, or Truth Seeker why would Fred be concerned about the rag in the tail pipe when he volunteered that he advised Maura to put it there?
A coronial enquiry can be held in the absence of a body. In the case of Daniel Morcombe it revealed a lot of fresh information and new leads from the public.
i think Fred would be incredibly helpful to this case. The car being in a garage for example. Just think of all the things he might know that could help put pieces together. If he's desperate as he says in the video, why nit put what he knows out there in hopes that someone will hear something and put the pieces together?
The Big Bad Wolves got her
I'm confused. Is Swift Water Rd a different location than the accident scene in front of Faith's house? Is there one accident scene or two?
maybe and this is a BIG maybe... Maura put the rag in the tail pipe herself after the accident so no one would get too far if someone tried to steal it, it would stall out, of course this maybe is what she did when she either walked away to get help or some stranger offered her a ride. but i really believe the bus driver is not telling the truth about somethings!
Imma Gunna Bealright I agree with you about the bus driver. I have had suspicions about him from the beginning. Also her father said that he was the one who put the rag in the tail pipe.
Imma Gunna Bealright no , the other witness said she saw the bus drive away and Maura was still standing there ..
Was the crack in the windshield from the inside or the outside. If it was from the outside did she hit the boy in Massachusetts at Amhurst and was running away..did the police in Haverhill know this and were looking for her.??? We're some of the damage done from hitting the boy in Massachusetts??
Was any paint of the front end of the car was there any blood on the front end of the car or wood chips if she hit a tree was any of this checked out...looks like they just put the car in a private garage to hide the facts
SUV 001 hitting Maura while she was standing by the hood of the car trying to get a cell signal
Too much speculation about nothing. Fred stated he instructed Maura to use the rag to filter the tailpipe smoke in order to minimize the chances of getting stopped by police. So there was nothing nefarious about the rag, it was just an amateur and bad solution. Note: I'm not related to the other Smiths.
Ok so now we know the rag was far enough out to be noticed by first responders. Fred goes to the car a few days later and is told to out the rag before trying to start the car. I take it that means Fred did not tell Maura to put the rag in the tail pipe in the first place? If I remember correctly one of the two ladies that called the cops said about a rukus around the trunk. Fred said that is where the tools and rag were ......ok to me the rag mystery is solved. If you were leaving your car along side of a road what do you do to alert people that you will be back for it and not to tow it? You put a rag a bag something that sticks out. Instead of putting it in the window or door she put it in the tailpipe.
The rag!! She stopped to get gas, could someone have grabbed the rag from her car in hopes to stall her car and take her?
It was his car before it was Maura's, they were his rags that he'd cut up and placed in the tool box in the trunk... Wouldn't his DNA already be on them anyway?
We don't know the police report is wrong...there was no evidence of anything. I have wrecked multiple cars, and she hit a solid object that bent the A frame and hood and luckily deflected off of it which means she was continuing to move.
when you said squaw walk it made me think. i live in the berkshires and at monument mountain in great barrington there is a cliff called squaw's peak and legend is that a native american woman jumoed from the cliff to commit suicide because she loved a man from a different tribe. You can read baout it on moniument mountain wikipedia and maura was reseaarching the berkshires before she left...
Hi, do you have a link to it. Thks
This guy is trying too hard to pin this on the police. Maybe the driver brought the car to his house and not the garage so it wouldn't be tampered with by employees etc.? Much simpler explanation than a conspiracy.
I think the drunk cop flew around the curve and hit her. Then covered it up because he new he was toast if he let her live.
And PUT her in her trunk that's why the Saturn went to a private garage and the next day the police went and retrieved her body and dispose of her. Or at the seen put her in the police cruiser and buried her car away....my thoughts
Sorry far away
That’s exactly what I’ve always thought too
Ive thought the same thing
My heart aches for Fred...I don't think he had anything to do with it...The Conspiracy he helped her runaway is horseshit !
If the Saturn started right up, why wouldn't Maura have just driven away.
Damn that's a very,very good question. It never occured to me actually even tho it's so obvious.
Maybe it didn't start after the crash with the rag in the tail pipe but since Fred was told by police to remove it the car worked for him?
wow! wth is going on? The car in his personal garage!
God, watching the clip of Fred is heart-wrenching. Anyone who has suspicion that he knows anything needs to watch that clip. He is the picture of a grieving , broken man.
Remember in the OJ trial when they kept talking about "chain of custody" with evidence? This is the perfect example. They totally ruined ANY chain of custody when the car was put in a private residence with no evidence bagged & tagged. Think about the loss of fingerprints alone.
Or blood on the hood of the car!?
It seems like the police are hiding something about the initial cop that arrived at the scene. It doesn't add up. I feel so sorry for Fred.
I think the cops def had something to do with it and maybe miles wainwright is a cop or on their side
WHATEVER OCCURED HAPPENED WITH ONE TO TWO HOURS AFTER THE ACCIDENT!!
I pray that Fred finds his daughter. Can you imagine how sick he’s been all these years not knowing. Fred I love ya buddy and I pray for answers to come to you.
It's possible the police ran her off the road considering the fact that they say he ride around intoxicated himself.
Not at all
Oh gosh. That poor father. :*(
Track down 001 and search for DNA. Or for being possible solid object that struck the Saturn.
interesting how it was suppose to be the other tow companies week, yet they called John Lavoy or whatever. then that tow truck driver takes the vehicle to his own personal garage for four days... the entire operation was a shit show from the beginning. I appreciate what you two do along with your guest.
I hope someday Fred will find out the truth what happened to his daughter. I just difficult to believe some dirtbag came along on this cold snowy night on a desolate road and this one wrong person came along in those few minutes and she may have accepted a ride out of desperation . . Wouldn’t happened another million years.
Only cop that would pick her up and do harm would be McKay, he’s deceased now but he was a jerk!
I feel so badly for the dad and the whole family. Not knowing what happened has to be torture.
Did it not come out a few episodes ago that Fred didn't offer the information about the rag in the tail pipe as previously believed?
1. the bus driver 2. the cops or 3. some stranger passing by. i believe she is deceased by one of the three above
something wrong with PD there!!!The car is at a private guys Garage???
maybe 2 or more psychopaths cops working to together or a satanic cult?
+Mega TrueTalk Satanic cult? LOL.
Police involvement for sure, trafficked possibly
@@1976mcfarlane bigger money is in organ harvesting by I'm js
How many suspects? i have lost count each time a new name is introduced the person always sounds a bit shady leaving me to believe this area is crammed full of degenerates. i would say we are in the double digits as to "who " might have hurt poor Maura.
I have engrossed myself into this case so much in the last several weeks. I actually had a dream she was in an old well not far from the crash site, on an older property that no longer has a house there. no i'm not psychic though i have had psychic type dreams in the past. I think the dream though interesting was just a dream because i have been paying way too much attention to this case. My Awake self believes that she was definitely murdered and YES it was a crime of opportunity. As a woman i had 3 incidences where i got lucky and wasn't a victim, once when i broke down on a highway at night. All 3 times it was a case of someone who saw an OPPORTUNITY and proceeded to take it. but i got lucky So yeah for those who think it can't be a random person, i say it is very possible. I think she was murdered very close to where she crashed and she might have been buried close by too, but the killer has had a 14 year head start on everyone and could have moved her, many times.
All the possibilities have arguments pro and con, but I think the one you brought up is the most likely. It certainly was incredibly bad luck for Maura, given the short time frame for a murderer to show up and vanish with Maura.
Gia Camillo I agree. People think it’s so unlikely that she ran into a pervert or a murderer but there are many fucked up people out there. That area is relatively remote, and New Englanders tend to mind their own business. That is the perfect area for someone with criminal tendencies.
why was her car put in his personal garage for days thsts like the smoking gun..how often does that happen n yea unlocked all tampered with crazy..why was it not at his garage or police impound
Good chance she met some kind of foul play. if so the car should have no evidence for that, since she was already outside of it.
Perhaps MM put the rag in the tailpipe at her last gas stop, bc she was experiencing car troubles which her dad taught her to do. This car trouble could have been what caused her to wreck. What is going on with this police dept? Sounds like they're all involved. I started this thinking Fred was hiding something or MM had wandered off, now I'm sure it was either the police or Bus driver or passerby in the red SUV. Are there other missing girl/women cases in this area?
Stop giving cops so much credit its some crooked cops out there
1. Is John the Truth Teller also The Wolfman?
2.
I would like to know his email address if you would forward it please. I
have been looking but can not find it. Thanks in advance.
3. Questions I have.
A. What king of vehicle was the Wolfman driving the evening Maura crashed?
B. Where was he on the night of the crash.
C. Has he been questioned by police?
D. Do you believe he is hiding in "Plain Sight".
E. The podcast Armchair Detective sent you a challenge.
If you have not responding with the documents requested, WHY NOT?
F. From these podcasts it leads to Wolfman is involved. Your opinion please.
Maybe this is why the NHSP are having difficulty bringing charges.
Thanks,
Lou
The Psychic at first said a dark blue or black SUV with a wide back and an American flag, an Eagle or something like that. then the suggestion that it was red so she still said darker maroon or blue. Was she seeing car 001?
I'm totally not feeling the turn these podcasts have taken either. You talked to John Smith once or twice and are now completely turned to his side. And you're now groveling to the Murray family like they've never acted fishy in this whole thing. You've both have lost me here. I can't believe you're swayed so easily. What happened to questioning Maura and Fred? What about questioning the statistic that for Maura to be abducted by an opportunistic killer, there was nothing but a miniscule chance? It's like you've all been glamoured by Smith or something and are taking to his side so you can get on the good side of the family and can get your foot in the door, or something. If that's the case, then ok, but there better be something good that comes out of this, like Fred's confession.
+Yvonne They're handling it exactly the way they said they would from day 1: they are collecting all points of view in a fair unbiased way. Every interview of theirs has been respectful, and though I don't care for the conspiracy theories, at least they have not tried to stifle other opinions. It seems to me they are having difficulty finding new people that want to come onto the show, which is why it has been a bit redundant. Hopefully some new voices or new information will come soon.
+Yvonne Totally agree, Yvonne. This podcast is spiraling into pure conjecture. The two voices of reason (Clint Harting and the forensic psychologist) they abandoned for this fool Smith. It is so obvious that she ran into the woods and perished there. It is a FACT that Fred Murray frantically told the officer that she went up there to do herself harm. He has switched his position for one of two reasons: 1. he wants authorities to keep looking for his daughter and he knows they won't if suicide is the likely outcome. 2. it is too emotionally overbearing to know that he may have contributed to her killing herself. Her remains will be found out there someday.
+Jeremy Maddux for 3 years, 30 some-odd years ago. And I honestly can't see how his being a beat cop for one shining moment a very long time ago makes him credible. Any idiot or scumbag can become a cop if they pass a physical and can drive a car.
Short of alien abduction, anyone's theory is a possibility. That will only change when Maura is found or a perpetrator confesses.
Was the failure of the local police to conduct a more thorough search that evening really negligent? I wonder how many drunk drivers flee accident scenes on foot or in another vehicle every year? If you do not attach any nefarious conduct to the police, and you put yourself in the shoes of Smith, would you have done something differently that night? The rag throws an unusual curveball into the equation, if Smith actually seeing it is true, but wouldn't it be logical, especially if there were no footprints leaving the scene, to assume that the driver of the vehicle was drunk and had entered another vehicle to flee the scene and avoid arrest? I had a friend back in college that wrecked his car after a night of drinking and ran from the scene. The next morning, when he had sobered up, he called the police and was able to recover his car. He got a ticket for leaving the scene of the accident but he avoided the DUI. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but don't you think Smith could have reasonably assumed that Maura would show up the next morning for her car? These kind of accidents happen more frequently than you think and I don't think it's fair to accuse the police in hindsight of wrongdoing or incompetence.
The accident still doesn’t make sense. If she delved off the road and hit a tree on the corner of the driver’s side, how did the car end up turned around on the shoulder? I can’t see the angle at which she hits the tree where the momentum carries the car back toward the road. This car was hit on the left side and then veered on the left side. I don’t understand how that happens.
The area (she went missing at) was not unfamiliar to her. She was in that area in October of 2003. She was in Burlington Vermont and then in the White Mountains all in the same weekend. You would not use I-93 North/South to get from the Burlington Vermont area to the White Mountains (you would go east/west). The route Maura took and went missing on was a direct line (east/west) between Burlington and the White Mountains). Look it up, the 302 is a common link between the two destinations. Coming from Amherst, Maura likely got off on the 302 to get to RT. 112. This is not unfamiliar territory at all. Maura also use to go hiking in the White Mountains with her boyfriend while he visited her at UMASS. So she has been to the White Mountains coming from UMASS in the past, not just from her hometown of Hanson Mass.
Yep, Unfortunately I think there has been a lot of introduced spin into this case (in part to preserve the Murray's image, and in part to steer away from the theory that police adopted early that Maura came to their area to do personal harm to herself. With the family spin, it has only muddied the waters and blurred the lines between actual truths and suggested truths
Clint Harting yeah she went hiking in all of those places but she never ever took a vacation/went hiking in Haverhill, NH. I live in Chicago and I’ve been going to Wisconsin Dells, Milwaukee and other towns in WI at least once a year since I was born but that doesn’t mean that if my car broke down on the highway or rt/rd/st etc., in the middle of no where, in the winter when there’s 2 ft of snow on my way there, I would have absolutely NO idea where the hell I was or what to do. There were no smart phones, no GPS in car. She had no service and I’m sure she didn’t want Butch’s help bc she didn’t trust him and we all no stranger danger, especially as a woman so after the accident she put on her backpack and walked to get service to call AAA and I’m sure she didn’t want the cops if she was drinking or she didn’t want them at all bc he didn’t want them to tell her family or Billy or anyone else and she knew triple A would come pick it up and tow it without needing police involved and then she had her backpack with everything she needed most and could fit and think of at that moment, locked her car and was most likely going to ask AAA to drop her off at a hotel nearby or planned to call a cab to get to wherever she was going which is why she took her backpack with what she needed for at least 1 night and the original accident call was he real accident - whatever the hell she hit and the drunk cop listened to the dispatch and went to the scene, it’s dark and there’s no lights and he’s drunk and he accidentally hit Maura as she was walking to get service and killed her. He freaked out, canceled the dispatch, called another cop friend he could trust, put Maura in his trunk and left and the cop friend came and moved the car up the road so no one would be looking in the actual accident scene and find out what happens so they staged a new accident which is why the Westman’s are adamant that they saw her accelerate the car into the tree. This is why Tim Westman gets mad and says that’s what f ing saw happen, I was here and you weren’t so don’t tell me that what I saw didn’t happen. This is why witness A (Karen M) said she saw 001 pass her and then came back and passed her a second time. The second time he probably had Maura’s body in the trunk.
This episode really irritated me, as indeed has quite a few of your most recent episodes.
Was it not Fred himself who said a) that the rag in the tailpipe was his idea and that he instructed her daughter to put it there and b) when first speaking to the cops, it was Fred himself who initially told the cops that Maura had most probably gone to the woods to hurt herself. These are his own words, regurgitated by your podcast in earlier episodes.
It now appears to me that you have simply followed whatever Mr. Smith says, even going so far as libel the New England police department in the process. Instead of being skeptical of Fred and his initial statements/behaviour in earlier episodes, you now contradict yourselves (and indeed Fred himself) by suggesting that Fred believed Maura was abducted all along -- from day 1. From your own podcast, we know this not to be true. I suppose with a potential opportunity of interviewing Fred (via Mr. Smith) is too big a cherry for you to keep the podcast somewhat neutral.
You mean the rag and the disappearance into the woods are both suggested by Fred as he put two and two together? Quite possibly. Why deny this now though? The love-in of Fred at the moment has made this podcast almost impossible to listen to. Which is a shame, as I thought the first 10 episodes were thought provoking and entertaining.
This podcast, as with just about every other venue discussing MM will (at times, if not permanently) turn into As The Stomach Turns. I've talked with enough people who really do care for the missing to know that I'm not the only one who has had to shy away from the MM case because 1) she is dead, and 2) caring means participating, and participation means you will alienate at least one of the people who want to be key figures, so get ready to be verbally abused. But yes; Fred did initially say that.
+Tech-Flo I completely agree with you. This podcast started out pretty strong, but has faded into ridiculousness in the past several episodes. These two are on John Smith's nuts like nobodies business, and that James Renner guy they frequently have on is delusional. They have become so wrapped up in this case that subconsciously they never want it solved. It justifies their existence to keep unraveling "new evidence and theories". So twisted. CLEARLY she ran into the woods and perished there. Like you said, the father freaked out when he heard and IMMEDIATELY AND FRANTICALLY told the police that she had gone into the woods to harm herself. This whole situation is a lot more simple than a lot of people want to believe. Shame on these two guys for propagating bullshit and giving clowns a platform to speak.
Tech-Flo Fred talking about his daughter in a past tense highly suggests that he knows she is dead. it also suggests that he killed her. If your loved one was missing and there was never proof of any death your mind will Never go in a past tense mode because you are concentrated on finding your missing loved one and as you are naturally involved in the case you will alway speak about them I present tense. There would be No need for past tense cause I have never witnessed the "dead body". McCanns always speed about their daughter Madeleine in a past tens cause they killed her. They have seen her body therefore they will use past tense. Go watch Richard Hall on RUclips.
I don't think talking about your missing child in the past tense means you killed the child or are involved in any way. I think that's simplistic and pop psychology. There are times when parents will be desperate to believe their child is alive and so they'll use the present tense. There will be times when they are mentally drained and think that they're kidding themselves by use of the present tense - and they'll use the past tense. Trifling inconsistencies do not trouble me in that respect.
Just like the Michael Glen Chambers missing persons case in Tx, the dogs hit up until a certain point and stopped so he was also probably taken in a vehicle since his body wasn't found nearby, either.
I am wondering if the red truck may have been looking for Maura from the earlier accident that had been called in ....maybe she fled the scene of that accident and whomever was in that truck was looking for her for that reason. I sense police involvement for sure at this point...so say the officer in 002 vehicle was involved somehow as well...maybe he knew of the earlier accident and was told to be on the lookout for a specific vehicle with a rag in the tailpipe and when he recognized the rag told everyone there to leave and called the police chief 001 who may have been the one she had an earlier accident with. I remember an earlier podcast of yours that stated it took Butch 14 minutes to call 911 so maybe he was involved as well. What kind of bus did he drive at 7:00 pm?!
Also, maybe after having the first car accident, she got offered a ride by someone...Butch, the 002 officer, the police chief, the person in the red truck, whomever..maybe they stuck the rag in the pipe so that if someone tried to steal it, it would stall out or for whatever reason..she realized something with this person was wrong and fled from them prior to getting in their vehicle....maybe then the red truck is looking for her on foot, which is why they stop to see if they know the person walking down the street....when they realize that isn't her, they leave and continue searching. Meanwhile, Maura gets back to her car and continues on but forgot to take the rag out and therefore causes the 2nd accident...then the cop recognizes the rag and the rest is history. just a theory.
My heart breaks for Fred! This is beyond crazy! Way too many questions linger that involve police!! It makes no sense that the 1st cop wouldn't run the road in both directions! It's cold, he could see her head hit the windshield and she is missing!!
What is the significance of the rag? Everyone is so hyper focused on it and I can't think of a scenario that makes it important 🤔
Someone could have put it in a tailpipe to cause the Saturn to crash, that's its significance.
I guess they didn’t want to touch it. But needed it out to start the car.
I thought Fred and Kathleen gave the police the indication she may commit suicide so the police would look for her instead thinking she hiding out. They knew something happened to her,, a local dirtbag grabbed her. They need the police to search for her.
Witness A drove East, she didn’t see her walking or anyone for that matter
Trooper Monaghan went West because he felt she went back to civilization and lights. Not walked toward darkness. But he could have done a better job searching that night. He spent very little time. Didn’t even get out of his car... didn’t even knocked on doors on RT 112 and Bradley Hill RD !
! NADA!
She probably accepted a ride from a dirtbag . If it was actually Maura driving the car? BA said this girl had long hair and dark clothes. ATM showed hair up light clothes. Puzzling.
Didnt a psychic ask about the name PETER? As in peters road maybe
Hmm good question
Is the car still available for forensics?
bringing the car to his house seems unusual, but i think then putting it in the garage was not. that would protect it.
Does anyone feel that remote viewing would be useful in this case? A real, well trained remote viewer with years of experience, credentials that can be verified; and, documentation of their successes/failures in that field - any thoughts? I am new to this channel, so if this question has been asked before, I do apologize. Thank you - C.S. - FL.
+Chris Senzatimore I wonder if McMoneagle would do it?
+J Gamez Thanks for sending me a reply. I would imagine that he or someone with his experience would want to help. With that being said, I don't know all of the legal/technical processes involved in enlisting the help of a remote viewer in a case like this. Also, there are the considerations of the family (Maura's). I just feel that at this point in the case, any information has the potential of being useful - as long as that information is analyzed carefully and correctly. Just my opinion on the matter. Thanks again - C.S. - FL.
I'm not sure about the legal/technical processes either....that's a great idea you have though.
+J Gamez Thanks. Maybe in a future episode, we will hear them discussing that as a possible tool to use in the investigation. Have a good one - C.S.
+Chris Senzatimore To: EdD5. I tried to email you a reply; but, I don't think it went through. Also, your reply is not showing up here in the comments section. In this situation, proper credentials would be military trained, at least ten years experience, and other requirements. Your reply came across as abrasive; but, you have the right to be as abrasive as you want to be. I understand remote viewing is controversial; but, it could still be useful in this (and other) cases. I welcome all opinions on this matter - thank you for your reply - C.S.
they could have tested the rag for exhaust fumes... if none Maura would have had to put it there as a sign she left the scene or something to that affect
somebody stops, ask to check her car in accident, place rug in muffler, car does not start, so she must go with somebody, and taken by to somewhere ,,,,, ?
WHOA. Wait.
Hpw did locals & tourist take pictures on that road by her car if the car was immediately towed
Fred needed his daughter help getting his car insured why would he wabt her to run off makes no sense
Don't you think investigators would automatically assume Fred's DNA or prints were already on the car or items in car so it'd be normal and possibly they intentionally had him touch it to destroy possible DNA or prints ?
So her father speaks about her in past tense. Seriously, she's been missing for 12 years! Imagine if this was your sister or daughter! You want to keep searching but there comes a day where you have to accept the fact that you might never know. I'd say after 25+ years, that's time to really let go.
Tights AF You sound so uneducated. First of all if the father is talking about Maura in a past tens it means that he probably knows she is dead. When people are missing usually their families never talk about them in past tens because there is no proof of their death. Therefore there is a very high possibility that father knows what happened to her. Second, why would I ever stop searching for a missing one? There are cases that where solved after 30 or more years. It is always harder to do the right thing and so easy to give up. Good people never give up.
00 aa I sound uneducated? You sound like you just read something online and believe it. Yeah, I'm sure he knew she was dead when he wrote that, hence past tense. (That was sarcasm). Maybe YOU wouldn't stop looking, but just because you would do something, doesn't mean it's right or that anyone else would do it. Fuck off.
Ive done some Research there Is a guy that uploaded a strange video on the anniversary of her disappearance that Led Me too find out that the guy Is a Alden Olson! disturbingly when you go to his facebook he lists his college as the same as The girl that went missing!!!
I'm not from USA. Canada.
But one question: If there is such discrepency between the police reports and what three or four witnesses noticed, could be there a review or an opposition by disciplines measures against those guys.
And those officials in duties that night are they still in charges? That was nothing «big» but unfortunately, it became big because where is she?
Then why the personality change
did you guys ever look into the murder of that Conrad guy that the weirdo mentioned in an email ? he was shot multiple times in front of his home and its still a cold case.. strange! plus his address is relatively close to the accident scene.. and that lake with the word "TAR" in it is near it as well ! freaky !
I’m still a bit early into the episode so pardon me if this theory excludes some details but: so faith westman as she’s calling 911 says there’s “a commotion around the trunk”- what if at this point that’s either 1. Maura hastily going into the trunk to get the rag to put in the tailpipe, as Smith says the rags were kept in the trunk or 2. A possible altercation between Maura and her possible assailant? A commotion is just such a descriptive word, what if faith westman actually witnessed Maura’s abduction without realizing. From the video of tim westman it definitely seems as if they’re an older couple, maybe her vision isn’t the greatest plus I believe there’s quite a bit of trees, maybe Faith only saw what she describes as “commotion” and if the Saturn was parked nose to nose with the cop car maybe it obscured the cop car from view? I have a difficult time with the logistics of the location of the Westmans house in relation to the crash site. This new possible timeline with cop car 001 is so screwy so it’s throwing me a bit, maybe before 001 came she stuffed the rag in the tailpipe to feign car troubles so that she had an excuse as to why she spun out if a cop came?
Another thing worth mentioning I think: I don’t recall them finding a wallet, her keys, and I can’t remember if Maura left her cellphone in the car. That being said, if she was going away for a bit like it seemed, she’d definitely need these things and if they weren’t found in the car perhaps when she left the scene of the accident she had a bag, or she had time to take a bag with her because it seems like quite a bit to just carry.
I noticed that Fred stated that he was "sure" Maura was headed for Bartlett. I've been to Bartlett numerous times, and I wouldn't even consider getting there by way of route 112. Bartlett is not very accessible coming from the southwest. Much too roundabout.
Is it possible that she was taking a back route because she had a few drink? Also what other resources would open up if she was declared dead? Do you guys hold things like a coronial enquiry. In Australia the coroner can call all possible witnesses\suspects and can question them with greater powers then the police. It allows a more detailed picture to emerge and also provides recommendations to prevent similar scenarios in the future...ie any police incompetencies.
This guy claims to live in the white mountains and he's an ex cop so he should know that damage can happen hitting a snowbank. Especially when weather is warmer than normal so it melts a little during the day then refreezes really hard at night. I watched my buddy almost total his Ford Crown Victoria running through snowbanks in an ice rink parking lot for kicks. If you can do that to a crown vic you can dent in the front of a Saturn.
+Gabrielle Goodwin I think she only hit snow banks as well (though that makes you wonder why witnesses and police say otherwise), but it should be noted that on the night of the accident it actually got warmer later in the day and stayed warm(er) through the night. Weather reports from that area that week:
www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KHIE/2004/2/9/WeeklyHistory.html?req_city=Franconia&req_state=NH&req_statename=New%20Hampshire&reqdb.zip=03580&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999
+Alaskaguyd And this would explain lack of footprints, too. Melted and refrozen snow would have a crust of ice on top that could well have withstood the weight of a woman Maura's size without breaking and making tracks.
The reason tow trucks take the car to their personal garage because they hold it till payment for towing it. My god son wrecked his car and ditched it and the police found it but the registration wasn't in his name he had just got it off a buddy who was overseas in Iraq so they couldn't find him to tell him or put in the police report. It took us over a week to find the car because there are a lot of tow companies the police use especially late in the evening . I don't see any conspiracy in that at all.
Chuck West
My issue with Fred will always be that he skips over parts that make his daughter look less than Angelic and that makes people think you have no problem bending the truth to fit your story. What else would you bend the truth?
Anna Mae Most people do this though. Look at how some people talk about deceased family members and friends in glowing terms and they gloss over the bad points. . I think maybe he believes that people will be less sympathetic to her situation if they knew about her troubles. I still feel badly for her..she was a troubled kid and didn’t deserve to be murdered.
@@stephaniemac4637 true. But they don't attempt to cover up "bad" stuff they did when it hinders an investigation and potentially get her kicked because he's holding back.
Anna Mae I really don’t think any of the stuff she did had bearing on her disappearance though. The police had an awareness she was maybe suicidal so they searched the woods. Her problems with theft or drunk driving wouldn’t impact her disappearance either. Like I said previously, being public with that stuff would probably hinder more than help.
At any rate, I think it’s a stretch to think that Fred is hiding her somewhere, like Renner seems to think.
Could Maura have damaged her car when driving into the ditch? This is assuming it was her they were referring to when the first dispatched call went out and then cancelled at 7:05pm. And maybe the gentleman who said he had heard her car accelerate before crashing was true because she needed to keep the car moving and Fred said that the car was fine when driving fast and not so good when driving slowly. Just a couple of thoughts.
Though it may be true that one cannot kill oneself by stuffing a rag in a tailpipe, it in no way rules out the possibility that Maura did not know this and so she was attempting to kill herself using this method unaware that it would not work. I do not think she did try to kill herself through gassing while driving around, nor do I think that she was trying to kill herself at the scene of the accident, but she certainly COULD have been attempting to kill herself in this manner. Many do think that such a way of killing oneself would be effective; why could Mauraa not have been one of them?
+John Avellar Wow! very spot on post. Of course Maura didn't succeed, but it doesn't mean she didn't attempt it, even for a split second. She could've went as far as sticking the rag in the tailpipe and then before doing anything else, thought to herself, 'no that's not going to work' and then moved on to plan C. Whatever was going on in her head that night, it is pretty certain that an unplanned wreck only caused more stress and anxiety and possibly even desperation.
Clint Harting Clint thanks for your intelligent response. I know they say that bad luck piles on once it begins, but if the accident scene were not staged on purpose by Maura, then she had a terrible run of bad luck in the days before her departure and disappearance. I hope she has survived all the badness that assailed her in those days..
Does this mean you don't believe Fred when he says he told Maura to use the rag to hide exhaust smoke that would attract police attention? Because if Maura really did hear her dad say that, she's not going to think "Oh I could kill myself like this." That would amount to Maura believing that her dad was instructing her on how to commit suicide.
Without that statement from Fred, though, I do agree with you that Maura COULD have believed, however incorrectly, that a rag in the tailpipe would lead to her death.
Hi there, I'm new to the podcast. Love it so far.
Could someone help me out with a few questions I can't get past:
1. Why is Maura's frantic conversation with sister so hush hush? What did they discuss?
2. Why is Maura's frantic conversation with boyfriend night before she disappeared so hush hush? What did they talk about?
3. What was the $4,000 Fred gave Maura for? Why so hush hush?
4. Why hasn't there been an interview with the boyfriend?
5. Why hasn't anyone tried questioning the police chief who was spotted in 001 suv going towards crash site?
1-Fred never said that he'd gave Maura the $4,000.
2- The conversation must've been about personal problems and the family don't want to talk about because probably that had nothing to do with her disappearance, just maybe in her wanting to get some time off.
3- Boyfriend has a very good alibi.
4- 001 NEVER were questioned (publicly)
How do you know these conversations were “frantic”?
Its not unfathomable that the local police have never had a major case like this and were way out of their realm hence the many blunders made early in the investigation.
I'd like to see interviews with people so I can see their microexpressions
Ah - so - very clear now. The rag was put their by Maura or a friend of Maura's who knew how to get the car to run with the cylinder problem (only 3 cylinders working). As your listener stated - putting a rag in a tailpipe is a fix for a car with a cylinder problem. Maybe the car kept stalling out, but someone showed her she could drive it if she used this rag. Finding out she could make her car run, she decided on this getaway. At any rate - let's put the rag to bed. The simplest explanation is the right one. There's nothing nefarious up with the police - just usual small town amateur hour. For all anyone knows the first cop thinks the rag is so weird and by the time Fred goes to see the car, the rag has been explained by someone - like that's a trick to keep a car from stalling. Fred said the rag came from the trunk. While everyone has their heart in the right place, there is so much over-complicating going on. I think the cops should have organized a search party for her and they didn't or treated it like either a girl in the woods or a possible abduction - either way - crashed car - missing driver. They blew it off. When the girl never showed up, they realized the really dropped the ball. If there is any cover up, I am sure it's them wanting to minimize their mistakes - especially if - god forbid - it turns out Maura was abducted and murdered and they did zero. I still say her body is close by where she crashed whether she was abducted or she hid in the woods and something went awry. Definitely dead. I hope her family can find her remains and get closure.
you say she was a captain in the army ? she would know the danger she was in she would have been trained to know this and how to get to safety but if she had hit her head she would have had blurred vision and dizziness so seeing was a problem she, l believe had taken a lift home she would not have gone on the other way down the read from home she was hert so this was not what happend some one she knows had taken her , other wise she would have gone on the school but , she was waiting for a so called friend this is want l think happend she sounds to me like a sencible girle l think she was waiting for a friend to pick her up l hope this helps
She was never ever in the army
The BEST 2 episodes so far!
The deeper I get into this case and listen and read, I think she had intentions of getting away for a week or so- especially because she had her books and running gear etc. I think she came around the corner, lost control of her car and got in the accident. I think its implausible to believe that she hopped into someone's car without anyone seeing. And she obviously couldn't have planned for someone to come and get her because there was no cell reception and there is no way to definitively know what time you would be coming around that specific corner for someone to be waiting for the accident. I think she left the scene on foot and succumbed to the elements, or someone abducted her. My only thought that doesn't make sense is the alcohol being gone.. that just doesn't make sense to me.
Do any of the podcasts mention the time of day/night she was around that area and that curve?
kinda got me thinking when you say the alcohol being gone, in the previous episode they said that the cop in the 001 SUV drank on the job...?
I agree about the succumbing to the elements. It's very possible she ran very far down the road (miles). If that happened, hypothermia could have easily taken over without her even realizing it. She may have got many miles down the road and turned off to rest and simply fell asleep and never woke up. If she is outside the search area that would explain lack of footprints or a body.
Maura was terrified of cops showing up.
A DUI would have been a violation of her probation and ruined her chances of being a nurse.
If Maura had been drinking she would have wanted to get the booze out of her vehicle.
Do they still search the areas of the woods grid style ?
Never
Also why does the Fred pretend that the FBI isn't on the case already?
+Gabrielle Goodwin Due to the fact that they've never been the lead investigating agency, like he's requested. They've conducted interviews in Massachusetts and deferred to NHSP for the entirety of it.
+Korben Dallas I don't think many would disagree with the Black Sheep comment. I don't think given the facts we all have, that any theory can be fully discounted yet, and that's one of the ones that can't be ruled out, though I think it's HIGHLY unlikely.
Again, I never agreed with the camps and side-taking regarding this case, but his venue is the only place certain things can be discussed and questioned more openly.
I would like to go undercover. An move there for three years. I want answers for her family. So bad.
The car stared right up when the rag was removed by Fred. Does anyone have a theory as to why Maura didn't just go on her way?
I had not realized her car was driveable!
Maura tried to turn the ignition 7 times according to the vehicle black box.
If Maura had known it was necessary to take the key out of the ignition and reinsert it, she could have driven away.