This is your most valuable episode because it sticks to the known facts and avoids speculation. Having said that, I believe you should correct a grossly misleading statement following 1:01:08 when you discuss the crash site just after 8 PM. You state definitively, “We know for a fact she wasn’t wandering the woods because of the snow and the searches that took place” and “Maura Murray did not go off into the woods after the accident; we know that for a fact.” By 8 PM, Maura Murray could have been several miles from the crash site, running and walking along the road, and she could have continued running or walking for several miles more before entering the woods without detection. Sticking to the known facts, it would be accurate to say “we know she wasn’t wandering the woods within a few hundred yards of the accident because of the snow and the searches that took place.” Anything more than that is misleading.
You do NOT know she didn't go into the woods. 1. It was bitter cold the day before, but just at freezing point the night of the wreck. Anybody who lives in a place that gets significant snow will tell you that snow will melt slightly and refreeze into a much harder surface. Packed snow, like the drifts said to be in the ditch, would pretty much be giant stretches of solid ice. When this happens, the snow/ice is often very strong. I weight about 200 lb and when the snow melts and freezes like this, I am capable of walking on top of the snow without falling through and making visible tracks. MM weighs/weighed something like 80 lb less than me, making it even more possible. 2. The night of the disappearance, there was either no snowfall, or light powdery snowfall. Again, people familiar with snow know that this light powdery snow is dry and drifts around without sticking. You can't leave tracks in this snow the same way you can in wet snowfall, and any tracks you do leave could quickly get covered up or blown away after a few gusts of wind. 3. Considering the light snowfall or absence of snowfall the night of MM's disappearance, that means there was plenty of time between the previous snowfall and the moment of the wreck for wildlife to leave all sorts of tracks and disturbances in the existing snow, which could confuse or cover up any tracks MM might have left, or mislead people to believe that if animals left tracks, MM would have had to, as well (see point 1). 4. Search dogs are not infallible. They can screw up or mislead search teams. They were also brought onto the scene very late in the picture, giving the trail time to fade. Scents are also less pungent in winter- scents are stronger when there is moisture in the air, so in the peak of summer when water might be baked out of the air and in the winter when the temperature means the air can't hold moisture, it would be harder for dogs to find and stay on a trail. And even if you disregard all of the above, there's no reason she couldn't have walked down the road and entered the forest at another location. Like, for instance, if she left her car and began walking, the cops were called, she saw them coming and ducked into the forest (afraid because she is clearly the driver of the car and she's drunk) so she wouldn't be seen.
Two things stand out to me: 1) Billy's 52 phone calls - that's abnormal for anyone, and I think it should be looked into further 2) There are no calls to the track coach Maura was supposedly having an affair with... had it ended by this point, or did it not happen at all? I'd be interested to know if there were any calls to him dating back farther Opportunistic killers exist. I live in a tiny, rural area with a very low crime rate, yet Ivan Milat, Australia's most notorious serial killer, was from here, preyed on hitchhikers here, and murdered and dumped their bodies in a forest here. It happens. There's a reason hitchhiking has such a bad association.
While I agree it doesn't even have to be something drastic as a serial killer right? Some dude comes along sees a young, pretty female and offers her help. Butch offered her his house but he maybe offers her a ride to the shop close by.She gets in the car and maybe he smells the alcohol or just notice her intoxication and trys his luck. She's not having it and boom disaster strikes.
Billy calling Kate is the most interesting bit to me. Why was he calling Kate? If the report of her leaving a print out from him confessing to an affair in her dorm it would seem plausible that he'd be calling Kate to either talk to her about Maura or see if Maura was there. The confession to cheating would be an understandable reason why she wanted to get away.
I kinda am surprised how few people can wrap their heads around the idea that Maura's car was damaged by hitting a packed snow bank. Which, by the way, could still happen if she hit a snow bank and her car came to a stop within inches of a tree. Would explain why people thought she hit a tree and would also explain the inconsistent damage. I live in MA and we used to tie a rope onto the back bumper of our shitty cars and put a snow tube with a rider on the other end and sled around the abandoned lot in our neighborhood. We smashed snow banks with the car and it would push in the body of the car. We could usually just pull it back out with a plunger but our cars were beaters so we didn't really care. Was pretty funny to get a little speed going and then stop short and watch the tube rider come flying into the back bumper but that's not really relevant here. Either way, hitting a 2 foot high snow bank could easily account for the front crumple zone getting partially caved in but not shatter the front head lights. Also, if she spun completely out to the other side of the road, it would make sense that she couldn't open her driver side door, considering that the car was supposedly stuck in packed snow.... to the point that the wheels couldn't be moved. This would account for Maura's passenger side door being seen left open. She would have had to climb out that side to get out of her vehicle.
I've heard your case for why she likely didn't go into the woods. I understand putting a lower probability on that idea, but until we know exactly what happened, I wouldn't eliminate that possibility from consideration.
I 'm in the middle of these podcasts and have tried to post this but don't know if you go back and check older comments so I'm posting this here in hopes you get it. We have a Saturn the same year. There is a red light that stays on even after you have turned off the vehicle. If your walking away and look back at the car you will see a red light on on the dashboard, hence the "cigarette".
+Frederick Moe Very interesting. I have never heard anything like that mentioned. Not a huge piece of info, but goes a long way toward answering that question in my mind.
Suicidal people don't suddenly become frugal because they only need a certain amount of gas to get to their final destination or whatever. From what I've seen, it's more of a "can't take it with you" situation, where they just don't care. Why NOT fill the tank entirely. It's not like they'll need the money later. I don't think MM was suicidal, but I also don't think a suicidal person would think like that.
Agree fully, the gas tank level has no bearing apart from indicating she stopped somewhere. Also there would be some evapouration over the years which would reduce the tank levels as well as us having no idea how many times that car has been started since the accident. There was talk of accident recreating which you would assume meant driving the car.
@@mikesanders1879 they would never drive the same car that is ridiculous they used another car for the recreation, also gas levels were either taken soon after the incident or they werent, but a lot of info and facts are police eyes only still.
Figuring what happened with the UMass cop is crucial. If he somehow decided not to report/follow up on the crash, an accident report might have gotten her in trouble with the school, where she was on probation. If that’s the case, she might have been put on the spot of choosing to either screw over her dad and not fill the accident report or screwing herself over by willing it. Finding out exactly what the consequences of filling out that accident report would have been is one thing that seemingly no one’s bothered to follow up on.
12 years later and I'm just beginning to look at this case. Renner and you two guys doing podcast are much more detailed than main stream media. I do respect Renner's theories and the two dudes doing this podcast. I do release that there must be a much time and energy involved.
it stuns me that in the land of the free, that the family and journalists have such limited access to the police files. Surely after 12 years she can be declared legally dead and all the files, bar names of suspects can be released. This is usually the way it happens in 1st world countries.
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that maybe while Maura was at work the night Petrit Vasi was hit by a car, maybe the person who hit him was driving Maura’s car? even if it wasn’t Maura? And maybe she found out that whoever was using her car hit a person and that’s why she got so upset, because I wouldn’t be surprised if whoever committed the hit and run panicked because they thought they killed Vasi, as he was in a coma for 2 months afterwards. So Maura panics because she thinks somebody killed Vasi with her car, she’s on probation from the card fraud so she can’t get in trouble, and she can’t get kicked out of UMass after getting the boot from West Point because she can’t lose her scholarships. So the next day Maura’s dad scrambled up to Amherst hence the seemingly out-of-the-blue trip, helps her get rid of the car and loans her his car. Maybe this was a “test run” of crashing a car because Maura’s ultimate plan was to crash/abandon her car in the White Mountains? I could be way off base with this theory but the Petrit Vasi thing is way too much of a coincidence for me, and it would explain the breakdown at work (since the call with Kathleen was at 10:30 and Maura broke down at 1 am, Petrit was hit at ~12:20 am) and all this sudden haste to get rid of Maura’s car even though it had apparently been a piece of junk for a while and by most accounts she rarely even used it. And it also explains the really really odd coincidence of Maura getting into two accidents in two days, although I do believe she had an alcohol problem and that may have been what was contributing to all of these car accidents. Or if the dad let Maura take his car just to use for the time being while he did something with Maura’s Saturn, and she did wreck his car drunk driving, I can see Fred being angry and telling Maura to figure it out and dispose of the car herself. I can see Maura taking the car up to the mountains to get rid of it in New Hampshire and staying in Stowe or Burlington for a few days to keep the heat off her, as it’s far enough away from the crash site to thwart suspicion and it’s a place she apparently really liked. I think she was probably going up to party for a few days hence the alcohol but one way or another never made it. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the person using her car on the night Petrit Vasi was hit was either Kate Markopolis or Sarah Alfieri. Would explain their hesitance to be forthcoming.
At around 30:00 it was mentioned people have “questioned” how many beds were in Fred’s hotel? I found that odd. I’m extremely grateful that I was raised by a wonderful father and brother in terms of them both being decent men. I know tragically many children are sexually abused within the home. Maura’s sister and brother maintained a relationship with their father through adulthood. I don’t think it’s fair to allude to Fred in THAT way. I’ve heard this podcast state this is “facts only”. Yet I’ve heard one of the creators mention twice that it “makes no sense” and “I would never tell my daughter to do anything like that” regarding the tailpipe. Fred has publicly confirmed he *did advise MM of the “tailpipe trick”. Making a point to mention there were two beds in Fred’s hotel room borders on suggesting something disgusting IMO. Of course it’s not appropriate to sleep in bed with your father. Why would anyone assume that was occurring? Also, my husband and I were both army. I was widowed way too young and really almost lost my mind. My Dad got on the first plane and of course got held up overnight due to weather conditions. By the time my Dad made it to Texas I was in horrible shape. I couldn’t go into my marital bedroom let alone sleep in there. My Dad slept in the guest bed and I slept on top of the same bed using different bedding. I almost took my life following my husbands death. I was very young and experienced two traumatic deaths back to back. I hope to God nobody would have insinuated anything horrible bc I slept on top of the same bed my father was sleeping in.
I don't care how common these dorm get-togethers/parties were, there should be more details on the last time these people saw Maura. As soon as you realize someone you were just with is now missing, I would assume you'd at least try to remember what happened, considering you were one of the last people to spend time with her. I find it troubling that the people who were there with her have been so dismissive of the event, like it's irrelevant. I'm sorry, but your memories just can't be THAT bad. We've got info up the wazoo on her phone calls, but nothing on her final social gathering? Come on! The only thing that could make sense is that either every single person at the party was blackout drunk (unlikely) or the police know exactly who was at the party and everything that happened there, but just aren't releasing the information for some reason. I don't know why it would need to remain confidential though. It's just amazing to me that after all this time we still don't know who was there were her.
+Clarissa Chapman Just because the public doesn't know, doesn't mean the people at this party didn't tell police what they remember from that night. Be careful when just repeating unverified info that comes from Renner's blog.
+jmstr100 I don't know but that's a good question. I imagine by now, though, if there was an footage it's been erased. That's something the police could have, but just haven't released I suppose.
+jeannette herrera yeah, the podcasters try to dismiss nobody remembering anything as no big deal. If there was a party/whatever you attended and found out days later that one of those there was missing, I'd bet you'd be searching your memory of the night and that you'd at least have descriptions of other attendees that you didn't know. Seems weird, doesn't mean it has anything to do her disappearance. May be keeping quiet for other reasons such as her accident or that Maura was there at the party to meet somebody or to do drugs.
One thing about the suicide thing and filling her tank up, maybe she wanted to get to one of these locations to kill herself in a nice place. I think it does make sense to fill up if you're trying to get far away, especially in an old car with bad gas mileage. And doing so in a different location makes it so your loved ones won't have to be the ones that find you. I don't think it eliminates it, it's possible the crash wasn't intentional, but once it happened she gave up. I dunno, I am still very much on the side of she at least could've been considering suicide. Having contemplated suicide myself and knowing many people who have and who have gone through with it, there are a lot of different ways that people act depending on how they want to go out, how much they care about their loved ones, etc. There is no single way to do it. I've known people for whom it was a complete shock, others who we all saw coming a mile away, who talked about it regularly. People who've made a spectacle of it and people who did it quietly. People who wanted their families to find them and people who didn't want to devastate their families that much. It all depends on the person.
Another thing I'd like to add is, the tracking dogs never tracked her scent into the woods. They tracked her scent down the street from the crash site and the scent suddenly dissapeared. Which strongly suggest that she got in a car
Well, yeah, but... Tracking dogs have been WAY off before. There are numerous other cases (some smart arse is going to ask for an example, so take a look at the Teleka Patrick case's dog info) where the dogs have been anywhere from helpful->somewhat helpful->not helpful->damaging. My point is that tracking dogs' information should be considered, but only in a weighted sense, and usually weighted far less than plain old common sense or eyewitness reports. So, just as in other cases, I'll take it under advisement that the dogs seemed to indicate she went one way, but I'm not necessarily going to throw out other possibilities because the dogs say she went one way.
Interesting how we can look at the same fact and draw completely opposite conclusions. You say she wouldn't waste money to fill the gas tank if she intended to kill herself. I say we don't know how far she intended to drive, and if she planned to end her life then saving money probably wasn't her highest priority. Maura already blew $40 on alcoholic beverages for the trip.
No need to waste money filling up a gas tank if you're planning to disappear intentionally. Much easier to run your car out of gas on some long stretch of road away from town & residences. No witnesses to worry about. Would be very easy to assume she just disappeared walking to find a gas station or phone to call for help.
Great episode. /Very/ helpful to just stick to the facts. The amount of phone activity on Billy's cell phone seems very significant. That should definitely be looked into.
Am I missing something here but how did Billy know Kate? Did they go way back or just met through Maura. I don't know if I can remember a time where by bff was calling my bf. It's just a thought.
After researching this case, there's only one logical conclusion here.She got in a car with someone and met her tragic fate.It's already known that she had past legal problems and that she was lucky to have dodged a DUI charge a few days prior to her disappearance. it's already known that she was drinking and driving the night of her disappearance. She was drunk, wrecked her car and I would assume that she was aware that the cops where soon going to be on the crash site.Keep in mind, that she was a person who didn't have the best of judgements. Why do I say this? 1) She got expelled from west point for stealing 2) She got caught using stolen credit card numbers 3) She crashed her dads car after driving drunk 4) She obviously didn't learn a lesson, as she was drinking and driving again. With that being said, what would make you think she didn't use that same bad judgement and get in a car with a stranger. She more than likely panicked and to put it bluntly, wanted to get the fuck out of there before the cops arrived. So she got in a car with a stranger who offered her a ride.I'm not trying to character assassinate this poor girl, but this is what more than likely happened. We already know she didn't go into the woods and foul play involving the cops and her going to Canada are highly unlikely, especially after all these years have gone by.If she staged her disappearance, she would have been found by now. Someone would have recognized her after all this time. That leaves only one logical conclusion. She got in a car with someone
39:30 Wait you are basing the fact that she had a full gas tank as to evidence that she wasn't going to commit suicide!? Not sure I follow that logic there. We fill up our tanks every time we stop for gas regardless of how much is in it or where we are going. To use the fact that she filled up her tank to dispute the suicide angle is in my opinion very weak.
Witness A....100%, I believe her and do not think she is mistaken. It is a very specific detail to give for it to be a mistake or even a lie. How many people know exactly what is printed on a law enforcement vehicle? I also do not understand why the chief doubled back on that other road. It makes it seem like he was chasing Maura and he thought she went on that road. If he was going to a call, he would know the location and just drive there--not double back and take the scenic route. Of course, I don't know anything. Just speculating like everyone else but Witness A and the rag in the tailpipe...those two things gnaw at me.
Wouldn't her tank being near full go with the rest of her plans that day of tying up loose ends. She returned her lab coat the day she went missing, packed her dorm room up and left a note on top of the packed boxes and was leaving her car to go back to her father, it had the accident forms in it (that he requested she get for him) and she filled up the tank for her father. I can't see how you can thing she was tying up loose ends on one hand, but completely discount she would also do that with her car as well?
Good point. Because even though she may have been tying up loose ends intending to disappear forever and not to kill herself, that doesn't mean the (perceived) crash on 112 at the Weathered Barn was intentional. And if it wasn't, she'd have had to keep gassing her car until she got to her intended destination. ... Notice I said "perceived crash" - I'm learning that very few of the knowns in this case are without any question that: known. Maybe this crash *became* intentional on the fly, shortly after an unplanned one on Swiftwater.
+Melissa L I think the crash was definitely not intentional. I do believe she was definitely planning on running away but I believe she crashed and she did not want the cops to come because she was drunk. She either hitched a ride or got kidnapped period mr112dirtbag uploads the video with the ticket. I think it's quite possible she went to the resort with this guy and the crime scene actually happened at the resort. I think mr112dirtbag is not just a troll. he has encrypted messages. Most trolls don't do stuff like that. aside from that that ticket it is just very strange and the penny that was tweeted by the other person. I think it went by Boneyard? Has anybody figured out who is behind that account? Could that possibly be the same person as mr112dirtbag? We do know that this person uses multiple different accounts. in my experience when people have more than two accounts basically three or more they usually have many many more. If they bothered to have three there's usually a reason to. Some people have two just because they are afraid their friends block them from posts or something like that so I don't see that as abnormal I know a lot of people with two separate accounts at once you have three or more that becomes a bit strange.
Thanks guys, I'm new to this after watching the Oxygen programs to date. I'm much happier with you two seeing how you ended this episode, because I was ready to state almost exactly what you did, but you, happily, beat me to it by discussing this "probability" concern/argument via Occam's razor etc...'That being said, I'd like to say this in a different way for you & others. We know that women, sadly, are taken, raped, murdered...all of the above....at a certain level. Meaning, this happens, period. So, the argument, or thought process of such low probability etc...that in such a short window of time, in this place & time, that this one amazing young women met her end just doesn't work. The way to look at it is: this happens, it happens regularly (far too), and for all the millions of women in this country on this one night that ran errands, walked to their vehicles alone (foolishly!), etc...met with no harm whatsoever, but Maura was the "stat", sorry to put it that way, on this night. This is just a perspective thing....a macro way of looking at how such things happen. Somewhere today someone will be killed by a flying piece of debris kicked up on a highway, for example. Someone will be in the wrong place at the wrong time etc....It will appear to most (closest to them out of grief and frustration) that this was so improbable; and, indeed, it truly was, but it still happened. In Maura's case she was heading somewhere (not knowing adds to a "mystery", along with her youth, beauty etc...), she pulled off to take a pee, grab something, or whatever, she hit a sharp turn in the dead of winter in rural NH, most likely buzzed or drunk, and cracked up her 2nd car in days. Being young, "buzzed", not wanting to get a DUI etc...she decided to turn down assistance and/or wait for help, 911 and police, and she started walking/jogging. Again, her being impaired wouldn't help any of this judgment stuff for sure. And, again sadly, she probably was abducted and met her end. I really respect this family, especially after hearing from them all, they seem like substantial citizens and smart, caring people, and I think they have figured this out years ago. I think we (Humans) love a good mystery, especially when they are centered around the premature death of someone young, attractive and full of promise...it hits us where it hurts: home. But, again, the reality is there are so many sick people out there that will take a life, rape a woman, murder, and go on with their lives. Humans can be very scary....we are great apes with much larger brains, we don't behave as nicely as we think we should. I don't think such thinking would shock any police officer...they see it all daily via accidents, crimes, and family disputes etc...it dominates their worlds....they know the dangers out there. When I now look at this I see a perfect situation unfolding when a young woman made some bad decisions (that we've all made a thousand times most likely) and she was one of the very fortunate victims of a violent crime....one of tens of thousands over the years since her crash in this country alone. I hope you all find the person who did this, I hope they are punished to avoid it happening to someone else (and, I'm not implying a serial killer, I feel it could have been so many "types" of bad actors on a given night, and maybe never to do it again, or killing themselves because they did do what they did. My point, I keep hearing "serial killer" and I hope to make it clear that it could have been way more of an "average" man, or men, than most think), and I hope, mostly, that there is peace for this family, as much as anyone could hope for, considering....
Just right off the bat. You have the times of maura's shift off by an hour. her dorm monitor job that Thursday night was from 8 p.m . to 2 a.m. This is a confirmed FACT.
Interesting information. However, I definitely don't agree that filling up the gas tank means she didn't plan to kill herself. If she was on her way somewhere to commit suicide and she needed more gas to get there, she would get more gas. And it wouldn't matter how much she would take since she was going to kill herself and didn't need the money anyway. I'm not saying that is what happened but you can't draw any conclusions about the amount of gas in the tank. The idea that she planned this to run away sounds really crazy.
A full tank is also safer on winter roads. If you're going to commit suicide, you're not worried about money, either. I don't think either of you have ever seriously considered suicide, so you cannot make those determinations you're making.
I disagree on the point made about staging the accident. Maybe she wanted to make it really believable that something really did happen. If she really wanted to runaway and not be bothered, filling her gas tank would have everyone thinking that she didn't intend on abandoning the car. It would throw people off and maybe that's what she wanted.
Regarding dorm room parties: they are fast random gatherings people pop in and out and normally drink to excessive levels. I have been to many. Another thing, students build a unique comradery what goes on in college stays in college. I have a frat brother who is now the attorney general for a certain state and I would never reveal to anybody about his shenanigans in college. He was a 19-year-old kid at the time sewing his wild oats.
Maura seems to check her dorm room voicemail a few times on the day she goes missing. Is it possible to get phone records for her dorm room phone?? Just wondering if she was expecting a call/voicemail on her dorm phone.
It really does not seem like Maura went into the woods. The dogs lost her scent in the middle of the road. That's hard to dismiss. Did the dogs ever pick up her scent in the woods? Also, whatever happened to the carpet samples retrieved from that 'A Frame' house where the K9 dogs got a hit (on human flesh or blood)? Lastly, on Episode 13, Mr. Renner said "...Chief of police Williams is a 'dirtbag', but he has nothing to do with any of this..." Ok. Are we suppose to just take his word for it? Because my mama taught me never to do that.
I e-mailed the dashboard light to John Smith who says the car was facing in a direction that would not allow the witnesses to see the dashboard lights.
+Frederick Moe Oops hit the button before I was finished . . . So the lights on the dashboard are not relevant. Don't want to be misleading since this events around this podcast seems to be heating up. (I'm only on episode 17 right now)
with Renner getting the Vasi report some answers are there:"1. Vasi was walking in the middle of the street2. the car that hit him was coming from the opposite direction; there is a little curve right before where he got hit, the guy took the curve and suddenly Vasi was right there3. he was either on top of the car's hood with his head smashed into the windshield or being dragged; he fell off after several house lengths at the Matoon-Triangle intersection where there is another small curve.4. he was found on the street at the northwest corner of the t intersection in the southerly travel lane of Triangle Street with his head facing the direction he was walking (south)
I love the work you are doing. In my opinion I think she was either going away to hurt herself or to simply get a break.... after the crash I think someone took advantage of her. I think it’s more simple than we are making it. I think we need to find out WHO did it. What stands out to me is that her scent is gone a few hundred yards away from the scene and bush Atwood’s house is a few hundred yards...???? Someone please clarify if these two distances are in the same direction
Some people don't distinguish one police department from another. The "police" she may have filled this statement with is probably going to be the FBI who was investigating after Maura went missing, correct? I can think of no reason for her to have made a statement with the local police because of the incident alone, so they wouldn't have this statement from her.
If there is no fast food trash in her car, it could mean she stopped somewhere to eat and maybe even have a drink. Perhaps a bar that served food in the area. This could be where she was targetted by the person who took her. Followed from there, run off the road, and grabbed once the bus driver was gone.
I've never heard the timeline of calls that were made right before Maura's disappearance. Based on the frequency and times of the calls, it seems almost certain that Billy knows where she was going or why she would be heading north. So many calls in such a short period of time and some during her work shift. This is complete speculation but maybe he told her he would meet her in Stowe or Bartlett for a romantic Valentine’s week rendezvous. Maybe that is why she called the Go Stowe hotline and the woman w/ the house for rent. She may have said to Billy “I’ve called a couple places and I can’t find anything, but I will find something when I get there. Once I find a spot I’ll call you to let you know where I’m staying so we can meet up or so that I can pick you up at the airport.” Could Billy be involved with her disappearance? Anything is possible. Maura knew NH and VT from family vacations so she may have been confident enough to know she would find some sort of lodging. I would really like someone to review Billy and Maura’s typical phone records outside of that week. Is the call pattern that occurred the week preceding her disappearance typical? It just seems odd to me that she went back and forth with him. I understand some of the calls may have been voicemail hits but they also may not have been voicemail hits. Just a thought.
wow! thanks for the link. I'd love to hear witness ones suv account delved into more. I've been following this case closely over the last year and you'll never convince me that this was a suicide, runaway, etc... I think one of the guys nailed it on the head at the end of this episode when they mentioned that most will say for this too involve foul play would be 1 in a 100 chance etc...but in this case I think this poor innocennt girl unfortunately, was maybe that 1
I think she did plan on running away but I think the crash messed it up. I think she either hitched a ride or just got abducted on the road but more likely I believe she did hitch a ride and even if that is not her character she was drunk and just had an accident could even have possibly sustained head injuries. Not thinking right or rationally she hitched a ride with this man and has never been seen again which is man could possibly be mr112dirtbag. If that's the case then the ticket he shows for the resort I believe would probably end up being the murder scene
Thought about the Atwood 911 call: If Mr. Atwood saw and spoke to MM on the way home, he could have turned his bus around and parked it and looked back and seen MM was no longer with her car (or was somewhere in/behind it where he couldn't see her). Which would explain how he could have seen her, but also not know where she is.
I personally think she was abducted. Clearly she was not in the right state of mind, however she must've been picked up and held captive. So sad. I hate that we don't know what happened to her. May God comfort the family. If I were the family, I'd be looking at every creepy guy and loner in the area.
this playlist is maddening to be in reverse when you are trying to do things while listening. can't you guys put together in right order like everyone else in the world who makes playlists, i kept my mouth shut about until episode 21 ffs
I just found out today that Bradyn Fuksa's remains were found and it was a gunshot wou d to the head. It was the other case, besides Maura's, that really grabbed my attention. Really stinks because i felt Bradyn was just as unlikely to commit suicide as Maura, so if he did, who knows, i guess. Scary. Hope you're out there somewhere, Maura. God bless you.
Filling up with gas is a reason to rule out suicide or voluntary disappearance?? lol! Think about it, guys. Filling up the tank if you are planning to go missing would be ESSENTIAL. ("Hmm..I'm running on fumes here . : . Wonder if I can make it to Canada . : . ?"). And suicide: "Well, I was hoping to get to my favorite place in Bartlett, but why waste money on gas--I'll just end it over there by the diesel pumps." I do love you guys and think you're both hot as hell, and I enjoy your podcast immensely; but seriously, sometimes you need to think a wee bit harder about the things you say.
"It is confusing that they were told they did not see what they saw-" you mean like how John Smith told Westman that MM couldn't POSSIBLY have hit a tree, even though Westman was there and Smith was not? Still don't understand your strange loyalty to him. He's scary aggressive, both with how he talks to people in meatspace and his violent speech online (see comment on previous episode, about wanting to punch Westman over the "MM hit a tree" conversation), and way too eager to believe in the absurd. Not the kind of person I'm comfortable with carrying a gun. Glad I live far, far away.
I think she hitchiked from the crash site, and someone took her in their car. The dog lost his trail in there.Then she travelled further by car, and either went to the forest to hike, and died there, or someone killed her. I think she was suicidal because of the car and having to fill an accident report. Obviously that was the reason for her leaving. She didn't want to file that report, and therefore had to leave away to escape the trouble.
Domino's isn't open at 3:40 AM. The Domino's by the university is only open until 2 AM on Thursday nights. I can't imagine someone still doing closing duties almost two hours later. Oh well, it probably doesn't mean anything. It's just one more odd detail.
Tristan K sadly having worked fast food it is not uncommon to stay at least 2 hours after close cleaning and doing dishes , definitely always at least an hour and a half worth of dishes after close
All that full gas tank means is that she wasn't at her destination. She could have very well been planning a suicide, which I don't think she was, but she wasn't planning it on happening at that location.
What if Maura asked daddy for money for a car but really it was to help her sister pay back this man who was wanting his money and threatening her sister? Same thought, but what if it was Maura who borrowed the money and was being threatened by the man via her sister, perhaps the man didn't have Maura's number. Thoughts?
Why are you always talking about things that you specifically say have not been confirmed by anyone at the same time you're saying this video is all waht facts that can be supported with evidence? You did it many times in this video and in several others. For example, when you're talking about what she purchased at the liquor store at around 39 minutes into this video. You say none of this has been confirmed by officials and then go on to get into more detail about things you know are not known facts. Wtf! The video title is What we KNOW! Stick to the facts. I know it's easy to get caught up in the hype and I think it's important to discuss those events also but NOT on a video that is only supposed to focus on FACTS.
I've never believed she was suicidal or that she was abducted,......If you think about it...A lone woman on a dark snowy road in the early hours of the morning.....Runs her car off the road,....Along comes help in the shape of a school bus driver,....She doesn't want his help she lies to him about having called the police......He noted that she was pacing out side the car and seemed agitated.....Why wouldn't she want help,....She now had no transport so why would she want to stay there in such a risky place alone......Simple some one was already on his way to pick her up.....The man she was running away with ....And I think she's alive and well some where with him
This also had crossed my mind still not being intouch with anyone is a little strange, yet her mother didnt seem very active or even to visit the accident location, it's possible someone or some of them know of her whereabouts so many possibilities yet this is plausible still all these years & not to surface.
Yes I think so too......I've read quite a bit about this case and from what i've read....though i'm sure he loved her ...her Father was very controlling and her image was more than important to him....I think it gave him a sense of importance.....being able to say my daughters at Westpoint.....her fiance's from a wealthy upper class family.....I think he was running her life and she hated every minute of it ....and this was prob her only way of escaping Tsu Nami
With the passage of time it seems less and less likely this case will be solved. Hopefully it will not be relegated to local folklore. Maura and her family deserve better than that. I've listened to the episode with Lori Bruno a few times. Oddly enough, she picked up on a lot of information without you guys chiming in. I was taken aback by her repeated reference to an SUV: dark on the bottom, light on top. I have a sinking feeling Butch Atwood knew more than he ever said about Maura's disappearance too. Perhaps one day we'll know.
+Korben Dallas Oh I see your joke there! Well, this birth control is like an old fashioned one that could be also used as a morning after pill if 8 yellow pills were consumed. 4 yellow pills after having intercourse and other 4 within 12 hours after. If the red pills were consumed then, pregnancy rumors can be called off because she was on her period and this was her 4th or 5th day. If 4 yellow pills were consumed, well, it could be pretty revealing. Source: birthcontrolnews.org/the-pill/levonorgestrel/triphasil/
So, just a hypothetical question for MMMD listeners: If you knew, for a fact, that Maura was alive and well, living a new life, in another country...and she had shared with you her reasons for 'disappearing'...(and they are compelling reasons)...would you share that information with anyone? And, if you would, with whom?
Since in this hypothetical, I'm hearing the reasons from Maura herself, I'll assume she considers me one of her life's closest, most trusted confidantes. And since also in this hypothetical, those reasons are good ones, then no, not if she needed me to keep her secrets. I'd never tell another soul. (That all said, I'm not sure today I can pinpoint reasons that *would* be compelling enough to compensate for the human instinct - or moral obligation, even - to in *some* way quell her loved ones' very apparent ongoing suffering.)
+Corina Jensen I would say, "hey I know, I heard you but leave me alone." At least to give her family some sense of relief. It has happened before and some people who do go missing are found by police and request police to tell their families they're fine but don't want to speak to them.
+Melissa L ,+Andrea Montano...Thanks for answering. It's a tough one, for me. I probably would go with Melissa's answer, overall. Though, I would strongly encourage her to, at least, do what Andrea says. Unlike you, though, Melissa, I CAN imagine some very compelling reasons. There are SOOOO many different circumstances a person could find themselves in. For instance, just a need to escape a toxic situation, but also feeling overwhelming guilt for wanting to do so...so you emotionally shut down and kind of do the 'Ostrich' thing, only physically instead of emotionally. Guilt can be a powerful tool to manipulate children, especially in dysfunctional families. Resulting in a very distorted sense of your power and the affect one has in the world. ( I do not mean to imply that this is the case with the Murray family, at all. It's a generalization.)
was she talking to anybody on the internet that was strange? I know they checked her browser history but that they find any strange contact through Facebook or other social medias?
16:37 crazy that there is a call where we still don't know whom she talked to... didn't know that. Also seems strange with all the tracking ability today... any rumours?
I asked someone involved in the case previously, WHY KM was contacted when the Saturn was registered to FM.... their answer/assumption was if FM couldnt be reached got M's emergency contact info from UMass (?) But how did LE know MM was the driver & principal operator of the car??? Anyone one but meeeee ~ ever wonder if a BOLO might have been issued ( originated by someone in Maura's inner circle) prior to 7:27ish that nite.....???
It's largely irrelevant, but the easiest assumption would be that, considering the car's contents, the probability that it had a UMass parking decal, and the eyewitness' call stating there was a girl at the scene, if I were LE, I'd go ahead and make the logical jump there that the user is the child of the registered owner, and I stand a better chance of getting up-to-date contact info from UMass, where the driver appears to be currently/recently attending. A lot of people may go decades without updating information with DMV and so on (if you pay your taxes and don't get tickets, many states simply don't care), so if I were tasked with finding an emergency contact stat, I'd have opted to check UMass first, also. JMO.
Oh, and, providing the decal # to the uni would be what turned up Maura's name, vehicle description, and emergency contact. Also, it would probably give me an up-to-date address and contact info for her parent(s), in case the vehicle's registration was old. In sum, it looks like LE at the crash site did go through UMass, which was (IMO) a good judgement call...one of very, very few. I'd really not have been surprised to hear that they were calling after Fred in the woods for a few hours, since that's who the registration would imply they're looking for. XD
i might have figured something out with the disappearance... 1 5 27 8 are coordinates to someplace, she could be there its just a theory I had ever since i saw the unexplained mysterious disappearances on RUclips
+Emery Paulson I got them from the video of when the man was playing keyboard and the saxophone it was at the end and when i put it in google maps it comes up with it placed in the water near Sao Tome and Principe
+Shauna Alexandria Grammatikos James Renner claims one of his readers just solved the map: mauramurray.blogspot.com/2016/02/someone-just-solved-alden-olsons-puzzle.html
+Shauna Alexandria Grammatikos From the post: "I believe this is a definitive solution and clearly Olson was trying to suggest Maura's body was somewhere on the ski resort. It's unclear if the grounds were ever properly searched."
what all do we know about mr112dirtbag? I've been searching and can't find too much information. I'm not sure which is his Alias either. What is his real name and I read somewhere that the cops did question him. Is that true and is there any place I can find the interrogation video or at least a transcript? Or at least some place it's talking about the interview? Basically I would like to know any information anybody has about this mr112dirtbag as well as what actually went missing from her car. I know you did a podcast about 3 things missing but is that all that went missing? In one of the videos mr112dirtbag uploaded with him playing the keyboard you can see items displayed on the table prominently with lights. I'm wondering what those things are displayed. did anybody look into the resort for the ticket that he had posted on his RUclips channel? I believe that could quite possibly be the scene of the crime. I believe she wanted to run away with something terrible happened along the process. I'm wondering if the murder scene is actually at the resort and happen 2 Days Later or within those two days of her abduction or alleged abduction I guess I should say. I have no doubts in my mind this girl wanted to get away from her life at least for a little while but something definitely went wrong. That's obvious.
If you mean Alton Olson, it's highly unlikely that he is actually involved at all. I'd rank the likelihood that he participated in Maura's disappearance just slightly above the possibility that he is/was holding Maura captive (which, incidentally, is ranked only above alien abduction and falling into a space/time anomaly because it's not paranormal). Alden Olson/Beagle/mr112dirtbag/names too numerous to count is just a tourist, like the rest of us. He's a tich weird, highly intelligent, and in terms of navigating through MM's evidence a bit distracting, but he seems to be Mostly Harmless. ;) Sure, his videos may be considered to be in poor taste, but so can most things Renner goes on about. XD You'll have fewer headaches if you just consider it performance art and move on.
+Ts0usermax To me, this seems to suggest she may have had some split personality issues. She may have liked having a "bad" side. She was not hurting for money. She had a job. She was able to buy a full tank of gas. She was able to buy alcohol. So what would make her steal someone's credit card to buy pizza? I'm guessing there was someone in her life who was motivating her to do this. And that person was probably with her the night she went missing and either harmed her, or helped her disappear. P.S. I was a college student and never, stole anyone's credit card info. Credit Card fraud is not some petty crime. And who is to say she would not have used it for larger purchases if she had not been caught? It's interesting that none of the documentaries on her seem to bring this up.
Gentlemen, I suggest you use a script. You waste time with all kinds of nonsense information, you are scattered you are not focused it is very hard to listen to because it sounds like a high school project. I don't mean to be harsh but if you had streamlined your information and presented it in a more professional manner you may have had a better audience
I really don't want to hear the phrase "random local dirtbag" again. I don't care who said it first. It's offensive to anyone who lives in or near the area where Maura went missing. This is an over-reaching phrase and reflects badly on the area and on your reporting. By using the word "local,: the phrase borders on defining an entire community. If you're repeating a phrase you heard or read, state the source at the time you use it. If it's become your phrase, you are no longer credible.
+Veronica Mueller As someone who's equally local, I take no offense to it. I think it's always just been implied that whoever did it was both a local, and a dirtbag, and I've always been inclined to agree on both points. I don't see why so many locals in the area seem to take it so personally. I would be throwing around much worse names if it were my daughter or sister.
+If Maura was abducted, the abductor is a dirtbag. That doesn't make him/her local. Nor are we sure she was even abducted. There is just something about the phrase that makes me bristle. I lost a husband to murder, so I do understand grief and feeling the need to find the killer(s) right away. I may be over-reacting, but I think there is a better way to express this, especially in an episode that is supposed to be going over facts.
+Veronica Mueller Fred Murray originally used the phrase on 'Disappeared' many years ago. It seemed like he wanted to narrow the scope of the search at the time. It certainly doesn't reflect on an entire community.
Everybody is so offended by everything nowadays. Unless they say "in an area this rich in dirtbags" or something, then seriously stop looking for things to be offended by. If someone loved locally and is a dirtbag then they are a local dirtbag. Every area in the world has good and bad people.
This show is so calm. Makes me sleepy and relaxed despite the dark situation behind it. I often listen to this show to sleep
I've become obsessed with this case! So many oddities in it.
This is your most valuable episode because it sticks to the known facts and avoids speculation. Having said that, I believe you should correct a grossly misleading statement following 1:01:08 when you discuss the crash site just after 8 PM. You state definitively, “We know for a fact she wasn’t wandering the woods because of the snow and the searches that took place” and “Maura Murray did not go off into the woods after the accident; we know that for a fact.” By 8 PM, Maura Murray could have been several miles from the crash site, running and walking along the road, and she could have continued running or walking for several miles more before entering the woods without detection. Sticking to the known facts, it would be accurate to say “we know she wasn’t wandering the woods within a few hundred yards of the accident because of the snow and the searches that took place.” Anything more than that is misleading.
Thanks, Bill. Big fan of your work. ;)
Very good point
You do NOT know she didn't go into the woods.
1. It was bitter cold the day before, but just at freezing point the night of the wreck. Anybody who lives in a place that gets significant snow will tell you that snow will melt slightly and refreeze into a much harder surface. Packed snow, like the drifts said to be in the ditch, would pretty much be giant stretches of solid ice. When this happens, the snow/ice is often very strong. I weight about 200 lb and when the snow melts and freezes like this, I am capable of walking on top of the snow without falling through and making visible tracks. MM weighs/weighed something like 80 lb less than me, making it even more possible.
2. The night of the disappearance, there was either no snowfall, or light powdery snowfall. Again, people familiar with snow know that this light powdery snow is dry and drifts around without sticking. You can't leave tracks in this snow the same way you can in wet snowfall, and any tracks you do leave could quickly get covered up or blown away after a few gusts of wind.
3. Considering the light snowfall or absence of snowfall the night of MM's disappearance, that means there was plenty of time between the previous snowfall and the moment of the wreck for wildlife to leave all sorts of tracks and disturbances in the existing snow, which could confuse or cover up any tracks MM might have left, or mislead people to believe that if animals left tracks, MM would have had to, as well (see point 1).
4. Search dogs are not infallible. They can screw up or mislead search teams. They were also brought onto the scene very late in the picture, giving the trail time to fade. Scents are also less pungent in winter- scents are stronger when there is moisture in the air, so in the peak of summer when water might be baked out of the air and in the winter when the temperature means the air can't hold moisture, it would be harder for dogs to find and stay on a trail.
And even if you disregard all of the above, there's no reason she couldn't have walked down the road and entered the forest at another location. Like, for instance, if she left her car and began walking, the cops were called, she saw them coming and ducked into the forest (afraid because she is clearly the driver of the car and she's drunk) so she wouldn't be seen.
i agree. i think she could have gone into the woods.
Excellent. Freakin. Points! 🙌👏👏💯🥇
There is also a theory that she could have fallen into the wild ammnoosuc river
This is the theory that makes sense.
The cent they gave the dogs was from gloves the sister believes she never even wore
I'm in the U.K and absolutely hooked on this mystery!
Me too! UK based and fascinated as to the mystery
Two things stand out to me:
1) Billy's 52 phone calls - that's abnormal for anyone, and I think it should be looked into further
2) There are no calls to the track coach Maura was supposedly having an affair with... had it ended by this point, or did it not happen at all? I'd be interested to know if there were any calls to him dating back farther
Opportunistic killers exist. I live in a tiny, rural area with a very low crime rate, yet Ivan Milat, Australia's most notorious serial killer, was from here, preyed on hitchhikers here, and murdered and dumped their bodies in a forest here. It happens. There's a reason hitchhiking has such a bad association.
I agree
There was another case 10 miles away over the Vermont border. Young woman, accident. Gone.
That guy has got to be from the Balkans
While I agree it doesn't even have to be something drastic as a serial killer right? Some dude comes along sees a young, pretty female and offers her help. Butch offered her his house but he maybe offers her a ride to the shop close by.She gets in the car and maybe he smells the alcohol or just notice her intoxication and trys his luck. She's not having it and boom disaster strikes.
I am glad you two mentioned how your perception has changed over the course of the podcast. It's such a different tone now. This was a great episode!
This episode was much better than most of the previous. Thank you.
Billy calling Kate is the most interesting bit to me. Why was he calling Kate? If the report of her leaving a print out from him confessing to an affair in her dorm it would seem plausible that he'd be calling Kate to either talk to her about Maura or see if Maura was there. The confession to cheating would be an understandable reason why she wanted to get away.
I kinda am surprised how few people can wrap their heads around the idea that Maura's car was damaged by hitting a packed snow bank. Which, by the way, could still happen if she hit a snow bank and her car came to a stop within inches of a tree. Would explain why people thought she hit a tree and would also explain the inconsistent damage.
I live in MA and we used to tie a rope onto the back bumper of our shitty cars and put a snow tube with a rider on the other end and sled around the abandoned lot in our neighborhood. We smashed snow banks with the car and it would push in the body of the car. We could usually just pull it back out with a plunger but our cars were beaters so we didn't really care. Was pretty funny to get a little speed going and then stop short and watch the tube rider come flying into the back bumper but that's not really relevant here.
Either way, hitting a 2 foot high snow bank could easily account for the front crumple zone getting partially caved in but not shatter the front head lights. Also, if she spun completely out to the other side of the road, it would make sense that she couldn't open her driver side door, considering that the car was supposedly stuck in packed snow.... to the point that the wheels couldn't be moved. This would account for Maura's passenger side door being seen left open. She would have had to climb out that side to get out of her vehicle.
I've heard your case for why she likely didn't go into the woods. I understand putting a lower probability on that idea, but until we know exactly what happened, I wouldn't eliminate that possibility from consideration.
I 'm in the middle of these podcasts and have tried to post this but don't know if you go back and check older comments so I'm posting this here in hopes you get it. We have a Saturn the same year. There is a red light that stays on even after you have turned off the vehicle. If your walking away and look back at the car you will see a red light on on the dashboard, hence the "cigarette".
+Frederick Moe Very interesting. I have never heard anything like that mentioned. Not a huge piece of info, but goes a long way toward answering that question in my mind.
Suicidal people don't suddenly become frugal because they only need a certain amount of gas to get to their final destination or whatever. From what I've seen, it's more of a "can't take it with you" situation, where they just don't care. Why NOT fill the tank entirely. It's not like they'll need the money later. I don't think MM was suicidal, but I also don't think a suicidal person would think like that.
Agree fully, the gas tank level has no bearing apart from indicating she stopped somewhere. Also there would be some evapouration over the years which would reduce the tank levels as well as us having no idea how many times that car has been started since the accident. There was talk of accident recreating which you would assume meant driving the car.
@@mikesanders1879 they would never drive the same car that is ridiculous they used another car for the recreation, also gas levels were either taken soon after the incident or they werent, but a lot of info and facts are police eyes only still.
Figuring what happened with the UMass cop is crucial. If he somehow decided not to report/follow up on the crash, an accident report might have gotten her in trouble with the school, where she was on probation. If that’s the case, she might have been put on the spot of choosing to either screw over her dad and not fill the accident report or screwing herself over by willing it. Finding out exactly what the consequences of filling out that accident report would have been is one thing that seemingly no one’s bothered to follow up on.
12 years later and I'm just beginning to look at this case. Renner and you two guys doing podcast are much more detailed than main stream media. I do respect Renner's theories and the two dudes doing this podcast. I do release that there must be a much time and energy involved.
it stuns me that in the land of the free, that the family and journalists have such limited access to the police files. Surely after 12 years she can be declared legally dead and all the files, bar names of suspects can be released. This is usually the way it happens in 1st world countries.
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that maybe while Maura was at work the night Petrit Vasi was hit by a car, maybe the person who hit him was driving Maura’s car? even if it wasn’t Maura?
And maybe she found out that whoever was using her car hit a person and that’s why she got so upset, because I wouldn’t be surprised if whoever committed the hit and run panicked because they thought they killed Vasi, as he was in a coma for 2 months afterwards. So Maura panics because she thinks somebody killed Vasi with her car, she’s on probation from the card fraud so she can’t get in trouble, and she can’t get kicked out of UMass after getting the boot from West Point because she can’t lose her scholarships.
So the next day Maura’s dad scrambled up to Amherst hence the seemingly out-of-the-blue trip, helps her get rid of the car and loans her his car. Maybe this was a “test run” of crashing a car because Maura’s ultimate plan was to crash/abandon her car in the White Mountains? I could be way off base with this theory but the Petrit Vasi thing is way too much of a coincidence for me, and it would explain the breakdown at work (since the call with Kathleen was at 10:30 and Maura broke down at 1 am, Petrit was hit at ~12:20 am) and all this sudden haste to get rid of Maura’s car even though it had apparently been a piece of junk for a while and by most accounts she rarely even used it. And it also explains the really really odd coincidence of Maura getting into two accidents in two days, although I do believe she had an alcohol problem and that may have been what was contributing to all of these car accidents.
Or if the dad let Maura take his car just to use for the time being while he did something with Maura’s Saturn, and she did wreck his car drunk driving, I can see Fred being angry and telling Maura to figure it out and dispose of the car herself. I can see Maura taking the car up to the mountains to get rid of it in New Hampshire and staying in Stowe or Burlington for a few days to keep the heat off her, as it’s far enough away from the crash site to thwart suspicion and it’s a place she apparently really liked. I think she was probably going up to party for a few days hence the alcohol but one way or another never made it.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the person using her car on the night Petrit Vasi was hit was either Kate Markopolis or Sarah Alfieri. Would explain their hesitance to be forthcoming.
Good theory
At around 30:00 it was mentioned people have “questioned” how many beds were in Fred’s hotel?
I found that odd.
I’m extremely grateful that I was raised by a wonderful father and brother in terms of them both being decent men.
I know tragically many children are sexually abused within the home. Maura’s sister and brother maintained a relationship with their father through adulthood.
I don’t think it’s fair to allude to Fred in THAT way.
I’ve heard this podcast state this is “facts only”.
Yet I’ve heard one of the creators mention twice that it “makes no sense” and “I would never tell my daughter to do anything like that” regarding the tailpipe.
Fred has publicly confirmed he *did advise MM of the “tailpipe trick”.
Making a point to mention there were two beds in Fred’s hotel room borders on suggesting something disgusting IMO.
Of course it’s not appropriate to sleep in bed with your father.
Why would anyone assume that was occurring?
Also, my husband and I were both army. I was widowed way too young and really almost lost my mind.
My Dad got on the first plane and of course got held up overnight due to weather conditions.
By the time my Dad made it to Texas I was in horrible shape. I couldn’t go into my marital bedroom let alone sleep in there.
My Dad slept in the guest bed and I slept on top of the same bed using different bedding.
I almost took my life following my husbands death. I was very young and experienced two traumatic deaths back to back.
I hope to God nobody would have insinuated anything horrible bc I slept on top of the same bed my father was sleeping in.
I don't care how common these dorm get-togethers/parties were, there should be more details on the last time these people saw Maura. As soon as you realize someone you were just with is now missing, I would assume you'd at least try to remember what happened, considering you were one of the last people to spend time with her. I find it troubling that the people who were there with her have been so dismissive of the event, like it's irrelevant. I'm sorry, but your memories just can't be THAT bad. We've got info up the wazoo on her phone calls, but nothing on her final social gathering? Come on!
The only thing that could make sense is that either every single person at the party was blackout drunk (unlikely) or the police know exactly who was at the party and everything that happened there, but just aren't releasing the information for some reason. I don't know why it would need to remain confidential though. It's just amazing to me that after all this time we still don't know who was there were her.
+Clarissa Chapman Just because the public doesn't know, doesn't mean the people at this party didn't tell police what they remember from that night. Be careful when just repeating unverified info that comes from Renner's blog.
+jmstr100 I don't know but that's a good question. I imagine by now, though, if there was an footage it's been erased. That's something the police could have, but just haven't released I suppose.
+jeannette herrera yeah, the podcasters try to dismiss nobody remembering anything as no big deal. If there was a party/whatever you attended and found out days later that one of those there was missing, I'd bet you'd be searching your memory of the night and that you'd at least have descriptions of other attendees that you didn't know. Seems weird, doesn't mean it has anything to do her disappearance. May be keeping quiet for other reasons such as her accident or that Maura was there at the party to meet somebody or to do drugs.
,, Its because She (SA) probably killed her,
One thing about the suicide thing and filling her tank up, maybe she wanted to get to one of these locations to kill herself in a nice place. I think it does make sense to fill up if you're trying to get far away, especially in an old car with bad gas mileage. And doing so in a different location makes it so your loved ones won't have to be the ones that find you. I don't think it eliminates it, it's possible the crash wasn't intentional, but once it happened she gave up. I dunno, I am still very much on the side of she at least could've been considering suicide. Having contemplated suicide myself and knowing many people who have and who have gone through with it, there are a lot of different ways that people act depending on how they want to go out, how much they care about their loved ones, etc. There is no single way to do it. I've known people for whom it was a complete shock, others who we all saw coming a mile away, who talked about it regularly. People who've made a spectacle of it and people who did it quietly. People who wanted their families to find them and people who didn't want to devastate their families that much. It all depends on the person.
That's my theory she Doesnt want her dad to know she killed herself So she Staged a disappearance, Either Way it was suicide
Another thing I'd like to add is, the tracking dogs never tracked her scent into the woods. They tracked her scent down the street from the crash site and the scent suddenly dissapeared. Which strongly suggest that she got in a car
Well, yeah, but... Tracking dogs have been WAY off before. There are numerous other cases (some smart arse is going to ask for an example, so take a look at the Teleka Patrick case's dog info) where the dogs have been anywhere from helpful->somewhat helpful->not helpful->damaging. My point is that tracking dogs' information should be considered, but only in a weighted sense, and usually weighted far less than plain old common sense or eyewitness reports. So, just as in other cases, I'll take it under advisement that the dogs seemed to indicate she went one way, but I'm not necessarily going to throw out other possibilities because the dogs say she went one way.
Interesting how we can look at the same fact and draw completely opposite conclusions. You say she wouldn't waste money to fill the gas tank if she intended to kill herself. I say we don't know how far she intended to drive, and if she planned to end her life then saving money probably wasn't her highest priority. Maura already blew $40 on alcoholic beverages for the trip.
No need to waste money filling up a gas tank if you're planning to disappear intentionally. Much easier to run your car out of gas on some long stretch of road away from town & residences. No witnesses to worry about. Would be very easy to assume she just disappeared walking to find a gas station or phone to call for help.
Great episode. /Very/ helpful to just stick to the facts. The amount of phone activity on Billy's cell phone seems very significant. That should definitely be looked into.
Totally agree. This is the first time I've heard that information emphasized. Billy surely knows what was up with Maura that made her head north.
Am I missing something here but how did Billy know Kate? Did they go way back or just met through Maura. I don't know if I can remember a time where by bff was calling my bf. It's just a thought.
After researching this case, there's only one logical conclusion here.She got in a car with someone and met her tragic fate.It's already known that she had past legal problems and that she was lucky to have dodged a DUI charge a few days prior to her disappearance. it's already known that she was drinking and driving the night of her disappearance. She was drunk, wrecked her car and I would assume that she was aware that the cops where soon going to be on the crash site.Keep in mind, that she was a person who didn't have the best of judgements. Why do I say this? 1) She got expelled from west point for stealing 2) She got caught using stolen credit card numbers 3) She crashed her dads car after driving drunk 4) She obviously didn't learn a lesson, as she was drinking and driving again. With that being said, what would make you think she didn't use that same bad judgement and get in a car with a stranger. She more than likely panicked and to put it bluntly, wanted to get the fuck out of there before the cops arrived. So she got in a car with a stranger who offered her a ride.I'm not trying to character assassinate this poor girl, but this is what more than likely happened. We already know she didn't go into the woods and foul play involving the cops and her going to Canada are highly unlikely, especially after all these years have gone by.If she staged her disappearance, she would have been found by now. Someone would have recognized her after all this time. That leaves only one logical conclusion. She got in a car with someone
39:30
Wait you are basing the fact that she had a full gas tank as to evidence that she wasn't going to commit suicide!? Not sure I follow that logic there. We fill up our tanks every time we stop for gas regardless of how much is in it or where we are going. To use the fact that she filled up her tank to dispute the suicide angle is in my opinion very weak.
I think that it is good that we are taking another look at the timeline!
I'm wondering if her school had cameras on campus back then.
I like that neutral approach of the authors. I think they really try no to be biased, which is rare.
Excellent episode, no self important waffle from you or the guests, just sticking to the case.
Witness A....100%, I believe her and do not think she is mistaken. It is a very specific detail to give for it to be a mistake or even a lie. How many people know exactly what is printed on a law enforcement vehicle? I also do not understand why the chief doubled back on that other road. It makes it seem like he was chasing Maura and he thought she went on that road. If he was going to a call, he would know the location and just drive there--not double back and take the scenic route. Of course, I don't know anything. Just speculating like everyone else but Witness A and the rag in the tailpipe...those two things gnaw at me.
Wouldn't her tank being near full go with the rest of her plans that day of tying up loose ends. She returned her lab coat the day she went missing, packed her dorm room up and left a note on top of the packed boxes and was leaving her car to go back to her father, it had the accident forms in it (that he requested she get for him) and she filled up the tank for her father. I can't see how you can thing she was tying up loose ends on one hand, but completely discount she would also do that with her car as well?
Good point. Because even though she may have been tying up loose ends intending to disappear forever and not to kill herself, that doesn't mean the (perceived) crash on 112 at the Weathered Barn was intentional. And if it wasn't, she'd have had to keep gassing her car until she got to her intended destination. ... Notice I said "perceived crash" - I'm learning that very few of the knowns in this case are without any question that: known. Maybe this crash *became* intentional on the fly, shortly after an unplanned one on Swiftwater.
+Melissa L I think the crash was definitely not intentional. I do believe she was definitely planning on running away but I believe she crashed and she did not want the cops to come because she was drunk. She either hitched a ride or got kidnapped period mr112dirtbag uploads the video with the ticket. I think it's quite possible she went to the resort with this guy and the crime scene actually happened at the resort. I think mr112dirtbag is not just a troll. he has encrypted messages. Most trolls don't do stuff like that. aside from that that ticket it is just very strange and the penny that was tweeted by the other person. I think it went by Boneyard? Has anybody figured out who is behind that account? Could that possibly be the same person as mr112dirtbag? We do know that this person uses multiple different accounts. in my experience when people have more than two accounts basically three or more they usually have many many more. If they bothered to have three there's usually a reason to. Some people have two just because they are afraid their friends block them from posts or something like that so I don't see that as abnormal I know a lot of people with two separate accounts at once you have three or more that becomes a bit strange.
Thanks guys, I'm new to this after watching the Oxygen programs to date. I'm much happier with you two seeing how you ended this episode, because I was ready to state almost exactly what you did, but you, happily, beat me to it by discussing this "probability" concern/argument via Occam's razor etc...'That being said, I'd like to say this in a different way for you & others. We know that women, sadly, are taken, raped, murdered...all of the above....at a certain level. Meaning, this happens, period. So, the argument, or thought process of such low probability etc...that in such a short window of time, in this place & time, that this one amazing young women met her end just doesn't work. The way to look at it is: this happens, it happens regularly (far too), and for all the millions of women in this country on this one night that ran errands, walked to their vehicles alone (foolishly!), etc...met with no harm whatsoever, but Maura was the "stat", sorry to put it that way, on this night. This is just a perspective thing....a macro way of looking at how such things happen. Somewhere today someone will be killed by a flying piece of debris kicked up on a highway, for example. Someone will be in the wrong place at the wrong time etc....It will appear to most (closest to them out of grief and frustration) that this was so improbable; and, indeed, it truly was, but it still happened. In Maura's case she was heading somewhere (not knowing adds to a "mystery", along with her youth, beauty etc...), she pulled off to take a pee, grab something, or whatever, she hit a sharp turn in the dead of winter in rural NH, most likely buzzed or drunk, and cracked up her 2nd car in days. Being young, "buzzed", not wanting to get a DUI etc...she decided to turn down assistance and/or wait for help, 911 and police, and she started walking/jogging. Again, her being impaired wouldn't help any of this judgment stuff for sure. And, again sadly, she probably was abducted and met her end. I really respect this family, especially after hearing from them all, they seem like substantial citizens and smart, caring people, and I think they have figured this out years ago. I think we (Humans) love a good mystery, especially when they are centered around the premature death of someone young, attractive and full of promise...it hits us where it hurts: home. But, again, the reality is there are so many sick people out there that will take a life, rape a woman, murder, and go on with their lives. Humans can be very scary....we are great apes with much larger brains, we don't behave as nicely as we think we should. I don't think such thinking would shock any police officer...they see it all daily via accidents, crimes, and family disputes etc...it dominates their worlds....they know the dangers out there. When I now look at this I see a perfect situation unfolding when a young woman made some bad decisions (that we've all made a thousand times most likely) and she was one of the very fortunate victims of a violent crime....one of tens of thousands over the years since her crash in this country alone. I hope you all find the person who did this, I hope they are punished to avoid it happening to someone else (and, I'm not implying a serial killer, I feel it could have been so many "types" of bad actors on a given night, and maybe never to do it again, or killing themselves because they did do what they did. My point, I keep hearing "serial killer" and I hope to make it clear that it could have been way more of an "average" man, or men, than most think), and I hope, mostly, that there is peace for this family, as much as anyone could hope for, considering....
I obviously meant "unfortunate"...sorry of that
Just right off the bat. You have the times of maura's shift off by an hour.
her dorm monitor job that Thursday night was from 8 p.m . to 2 a.m. This is a confirmed FACT.
Any thoughts on why Bill is calling Kate? This is bugging me.
Interesting information. However, I definitely don't agree that filling up the gas tank means she didn't plan to kill herself. If she was on her way somewhere to commit suicide and she needed more gas to get there, she would get more gas. And it wouldn't matter how much she would take since she was going to kill herself and didn't need the money anyway. I'm not saying that is what happened but you can't draw any conclusions about the amount of gas in the tank. The idea that she planned this to run away sounds really crazy.
A full tank is also safer on winter roads. If you're going to commit suicide, you're not worried about money, either. I don't think either of you have ever seriously considered suicide, so you cannot make those determinations you're making.
Thank you guys. I first seen the disappeared episode and its case that so many things that just want answers
I don't think she had anything too do with the vasi accident, but that's just based off what I've read firsthand.
I disagree on the point made about staging the accident. Maybe she wanted to make it really believable that something really did happen. If she really wanted to runaway and not be bothered, filling her gas tank would have everyone thinking that she didn't intend on abandoning the car. It would throw people off and maybe that's what she wanted.
Sounds like she might have had a drinking problem
Regarding dorm room parties: they are fast random gatherings people pop in and out and normally drink to excessive levels. I have been to many. Another thing, students build a unique comradery what goes on in college stays in college. I have a frat brother who is now the attorney general for a certain state and I would never reveal to anybody about his shenanigans in college. He was a 19-year-old kid at the time sewing his wild oats.
Maura seems to check her dorm room voicemail a few times on the day she goes missing. Is it possible to get phone records for her dorm room phone?? Just wondering if she was expecting a call/voicemail on her dorm phone.
It really does not seem like Maura went into the woods. The dogs lost her scent in the middle of the road. That's hard to dismiss. Did the dogs ever pick up her scent in the woods? Also, whatever happened to the carpet samples retrieved from that 'A Frame' house where the K9 dogs got a hit (on human flesh or blood)? Lastly, on Episode 13, Mr. Renner said "...Chief of police Williams is a 'dirtbag', but he has nothing to do with any of this..." Ok. Are we suppose to just take his word for it? Because my mama taught me never to do that.
I e-mailed the dashboard light to John Smith who says the car was facing in a direction that would not allow the witnesses to see the dashboard lights.
+Frederick Moe Oops hit the button before I was finished . . . So the lights on the dashboard are not relevant. Don't want to be misleading since this events around this podcast seems to be heating up. (I'm only on episode 17 right now)
with Renner getting the Vasi report some answers are there:"1. Vasi was walking in the middle of the street2. the car that hit him was coming from the opposite direction; there is a little curve right before where he got hit, the guy took the curve and suddenly Vasi was right there3. he was either on top of the car's hood with his head smashed into the windshield or being dragged; he fell off after several house lengths at the Matoon-Triangle intersection where there is another small curve.4. he was found on the street at the northwest corner of the t intersection in the southerly travel lane of Triangle Street with his head facing the direction he was walking (south)
I love the work you are doing. In my opinion I think she was either going away to hurt herself or to simply get a break.... after the crash I think someone took advantage of her. I think it’s more simple than we are making it. I think we need to find out WHO did it. What stands out to me is that her scent is gone a few hundred yards away from the scene and bush Atwood’s house is a few hundred yards...???? Someone please clarify if these two distances are in the same direction
Yes they are
Yeah, this has all the discrepancies necessary for conspiracy if you ask me.
Some people don't distinguish one police department from another. The "police" she may have filled this statement with is probably going to be the FBI who was investigating after Maura went missing, correct? I can think of no reason for her to have made a statement with the local police because of the incident alone, so they wouldn't have this statement from her.
How could she afford a condo to rent in the first place?
No
If there is no fast food trash in her car, it could mean she stopped somewhere to eat and maybe even have a drink. Perhaps a bar that served food in the area. This could be where she was targetted by the person who took her. Followed from there, run off the road, and grabbed once the bus driver was gone.
its sad because its obvious that Maura is dead. someone... or something abducted her. people need to pray for her family
I've never heard the timeline of calls that were made right before Maura's disappearance. Based on the frequency and times of the calls, it seems almost certain that Billy knows where she was going or why she would be heading north. So many calls in
such a short period of time and some during her work shift. This is complete speculation
but maybe he told her he would meet her in Stowe or Bartlett for a romantic Valentine’s
week rendezvous. Maybe that is why she called the Go Stowe hotline and the woman w/ the house for rent. She may have said to Billy “I’ve called a couple places and I can’t find anything, but I will find something when I get there. Once I find a spot I’ll call you to let you know where I’m staying so we can meet up or so that I can pick you up at the airport.” Could Billy be involved with her disappearance? Anything is possible. Maura knew NH and VT from family vacations so she may have been confident enough to know she would find some sort of lodging. I would really like someone to review Billy
and Maura’s typical phone records outside of that week. Is the call pattern that occurred the week preceding her disappearance typical? It just seems odd to me that she went back and forth with him. I understand some of the calls may have been voicemail hits but they also may not have been voicemail hits. Just a thought.
maybe the Valentine's Day thing you're talking about was at the resort mr112dirtbag posted the ticket for and that is where he ran into her.
if butch atwood killed maura, he would never had called the cops.
Wrong. People do that to throw off the police and people like you lol
Isn't the timeframe way off for Maura to be involved in the hit and run?
wow! thanks for the link. I'd love to hear witness ones suv account delved into more. I've been following this case closely over the last year and you'll never convince me that this was a suicide, runaway, etc... I think one of the guys nailed it on the head at the end of this episode when they mentioned that most will say for this too involve foul play would be 1 in a 100 chance etc...but in this case I think this poor innocennt girl unfortunately, was maybe that 1
+Mike Villalovos
i'd say more like 50-50 foul play, given the very odd circumstances.
I think she did plan on running away but I think the crash messed it up. I think she either hitched a ride or just got abducted on the road but more likely I believe she did hitch a ride and even if that is not her character she was drunk and just had an accident could even have possibly sustained head injuries. Not thinking right or rationally she hitched a ride with this man and has never been seen again which is man could possibly be mr112dirtbag. If that's the case then the ticket he shows for the resort I believe would probably end up being the murder scene
Thought about the Atwood 911 call: If Mr. Atwood saw and spoke to MM on the way home, he could have turned his bus around and parked it and looked back and seen MM was no longer with her car (or was somewhere in/behind it where he couldn't see her). Which would explain how he could have seen her, but also not know where she is.
I personally think she was abducted. Clearly she was not in the right state of mind, however she must've been picked up and held captive. So sad. I hate that we don't know what happened to her. May God comfort the family. If I were the family, I'd be looking at every creepy guy and loner in the area.
this playlist is maddening to be in reverse when you are trying to do things while listening. can't you guys put together in right order like everyone else in the world who makes playlists, i kept my mouth shut about until episode 21 ffs
odysseus x lol I’m watching them in order by just clicking the next one from the suggested videos. It’s not that hard
they're not in order on my suggested list, sometimes they're on the same page. Maybe we have different suggested videos
I just found out today that Bradyn Fuksa's remains were found and it was a gunshot wou d to the head. It was the other case, besides Maura's, that really grabbed my attention. Really stinks because i felt Bradyn was just as unlikely to commit suicide as Maura, so if he did, who knows, i guess. Scary. Hope you're out there somewhere, Maura. God bless you.
Filling up with gas is a reason to rule out suicide or voluntary disappearance?? lol!
Think about it, guys. Filling up the tank if you are planning to go missing would be ESSENTIAL. ("Hmm..I'm running on fumes here . : . Wonder if I can make it to Canada . : . ?"). And suicide: "Well, I was hoping to get to my favorite place in Bartlett, but why waste money on gas--I'll just end it over there by the diesel pumps."
I do love you guys and think you're both hot as hell, and I enjoy your podcast immensely; but seriously, sometimes you need to think a wee bit harder about the things you say.
"It is confusing that they were told they did not see what they saw-" you mean like how John Smith told Westman that MM couldn't POSSIBLY have hit a tree, even though Westman was there and Smith was not? Still don't understand your strange loyalty to him. He's scary aggressive, both with how he talks to people in meatspace and his violent speech online (see comment on previous episode, about wanting to punch Westman over the "MM hit a tree" conversation), and way too eager to believe in the absurd. Not the kind of person I'm comfortable with carrying a gun. Glad I live far, far away.
It has been proven repeatedly that she did not hit the tree. Couldn't have. Hit the snow bank
Did he even see the accident or was it just his wife? Plus it’s been 14 years so their memory may be off
I think she hitchiked from the crash site, and someone took her in their car. The dog lost his trail in there.Then she travelled further by car, and either went to the forest to hike, and died there, or someone killed her. I think she was suicidal because of the car and having to fill an accident report. Obviously that was the reason for her leaving. She didn't want to file that report, and therefore had to leave away to escape the trouble.
where in hell can you go for 250 bucks (impossible to last more than 2 days) She must of had other funds , from where
Great show n hello Cloey
This is the time of the case. She did not disappear. What happened? Someone knows something.
No way no one remember who was at the party.
Domino's isn't open at 3:40 AM. The Domino's by the university is only open until 2 AM on Thursday nights. I can't imagine someone still doing closing duties almost two hours later. Oh well, it probably doesn't mean anything. It's just one more odd detail.
Tristan K sadly having worked fast food it is not uncommon to stay at least 2 hours after close cleaning and doing dishes , definitely always at least an hour and a half worth of dishes after close
All that full gas tank means is that she wasn't at her destination. She could have very well been planning a suicide, which I don't think she was, but she wasn't planning it on happening at that location.
What if Maura asked daddy for money for a car but really it was to help her sister pay back this man who was wanting his money and threatening her sister?
Same thought, but what if it was Maura who borrowed the money and was being threatened by the man via her sister, perhaps the man didn't have Maura's number.
Thoughts?
Why are you always talking about things that you specifically say have not been confirmed by anyone at the same time you're saying this video is all waht facts that can be supported with evidence? You did it many times in this video and in several others. For example, when you're talking about what she purchased at the liquor store at around 39 minutes into this video. You say none of this has been confirmed by officials and then go on to get into more detail about things you know are not known facts. Wtf! The video title is What we KNOW! Stick to the facts. I know it's easy to get caught up in the hype and I think it's important to discuss those events also but NOT on a video that is only supposed to focus on FACTS.
I've never believed she was suicidal or that she was abducted,......If you think about it...A lone woman on a dark snowy road in the early hours of the morning.....Runs her car off the road,....Along comes help in the shape of a school bus driver,....She doesn't want his help she lies to him about having called the police......He noted that she was pacing out side the car and seemed agitated.....Why wouldn't she want help,....She now had no transport so why would she want to stay there in such a risky place alone......Simple some one was already on his way to pick her up.....The man she was running away with ....And I think she's alive and well some where with him
This also had crossed my mind still not being intouch with anyone is a little strange, yet her mother didnt seem very active or even to visit the accident location, it's possible someone or some of them know of her whereabouts so many possibilities yet this is plausible still all these years & not to surface.
It wasn't early morning, it was early evening around 7:30
Yes I think so too......I've read quite a bit about this case and from what i've read....though i'm sure he loved her ...her Father was very controlling and her image was more than important to him....I think it gave him a sense of importance.....being able to say my daughters at Westpoint.....her fiance's from a wealthy upper class family.....I think he was running her life and she hated every minute of it ....and this was prob her only way of escaping Tsu Nami
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Early morning early evening....either way it was still dark
From what i understand, the mother didn't help with searches because she had a broken ankle and she was also fighting a long battle with cancer.
why am i not abl to find episode 18?
With the passage of time it seems less and less likely this case will be solved. Hopefully it will not be relegated to local folklore. Maura and her family deserve better than that.
I've listened to the episode with Lori Bruno a few times. Oddly enough, she picked up on a lot of information without you guys chiming in. I was taken aback by her repeated reference to an SUV: dark on the bottom, light on top. I have a sinking feeling Butch Atwood knew more than he ever said about Maura's disappearance too.
Perhaps one day we'll know.
where can I hear the account of witness one that throws a whole new twist on things???
+Mike Villalovos medium.com/the-coffeelicious/the-day-she-was-gone-a3574a2c1da6#.ns4dv3cgj
Here's an article that recounts it.
Simple question- were the 4 birth control pills that Maura consumed the red/brown pills or the yellow pills? Thanks!
+Korben Dallas Oh I see your joke there!
Well, this birth control is like an old fashioned one that could be also used as a morning after pill if 8 yellow pills were consumed. 4 yellow pills after having intercourse and other 4 within 12 hours after. If the red pills were consumed then, pregnancy rumors can be called off because she was on her period and this was her 4th or 5th day. If 4 yellow pills were consumed, well, it could be pretty revealing.
Source: birthcontrolnews.org/the-pill/levonorgestrel/triphasil/
So, just a hypothetical question for MMMD listeners:
If you knew, for a fact, that Maura was alive and well, living a new life, in another country...and she had shared with you her reasons for 'disappearing'...(and they are compelling reasons)...would you share that information with anyone? And, if you would, with whom?
Since in this hypothetical, I'm hearing the reasons from Maura herself, I'll assume she considers me one of her life's closest, most trusted confidantes. And since also in this hypothetical, those reasons are good ones, then no, not if she needed me to keep her secrets. I'd never tell another soul. (That all said, I'm not sure today I can pinpoint reasons that *would* be compelling enough to compensate for the human instinct - or moral obligation, even - to in *some* way quell her loved ones' very apparent ongoing suffering.)
+Corina Jensen I would say, "hey I know, I heard you but leave me alone." At least to give her family some sense of relief. It has happened before and some people who do go missing are found by police and request police to tell their families they're fine but don't want to speak to them.
+Melissa L ,+Andrea Montano...Thanks for answering. It's a tough one, for me. I probably would go with Melissa's answer, overall. Though, I would strongly encourage her to, at least, do what Andrea says. Unlike you, though, Melissa, I CAN imagine some very compelling reasons. There are SOOOO many different circumstances a person could find themselves in. For instance, just a need to escape a toxic situation, but also feeling overwhelming guilt for wanting to do so...so you emotionally shut down and kind of do the 'Ostrich' thing, only physically instead of emotionally. Guilt can be a powerful tool to manipulate children, especially in dysfunctional families. Resulting in a very distorted sense of your power and the affect one has in the world. ( I do not mean to imply that this is the case with the Murray family, at all. It's a generalization.)
was she talking to anybody on the internet that was strange? I know they checked her browser history but that they find any strange contact through Facebook or other social medias?
Choking While Phucking 2004 irrelevant fb etc not that common
16:37 crazy that there is a call where we still don't know whom she talked to... didn't know that. Also seems strange with all the tracking ability today... any rumours?
Her family and the police know who the phone call was. The public still just doesnt know
Where is Maura's car ?
Going in Circles
why did they disassociate themselves?
I asked someone involved in the case previously, WHY KM was contacted when the Saturn was registered to FM.... their answer/assumption was if FM couldnt be reached got M's emergency contact info from UMass (?) But how did LE know MM was the driver & principal operator of the car??? Anyone one but meeeee ~ ever wonder if a BOLO might have been issued ( originated by someone in Maura's inner circle) prior to 7:27ish that nite.....???
It's largely irrelevant, but the easiest assumption would be that, considering the car's contents, the probability that it had a UMass parking decal, and the eyewitness' call stating there was a girl at the scene, if I were LE, I'd go ahead and make the logical jump there that the user is the child of the registered owner, and I stand a better chance of getting up-to-date contact info from UMass, where the driver appears to be currently/recently attending. A lot of people may go decades without updating information with DMV and so on (if you pay your taxes and don't get tickets, many states simply don't care), so if I were tasked with finding an emergency contact stat, I'd have opted to check UMass first, also. JMO.
Oh, and, providing the decal # to the uni would be what turned up Maura's name, vehicle description, and emergency contact. Also, it would probably give me an up-to-date address and contact info for her parent(s), in case the vehicle's registration was old. In sum, it looks like LE at the crash site did go through UMass, which was (IMO) a good judgement call...one of very, very few. I'd really not have been surprised to hear that they were calling after Fred in the woods for a few hours, since that's who the registration would imply they're looking for. XD
i might have figured something out with the disappearance... 1 5 27 8 are coordinates to someplace, she could be there its just a theory I had ever since i saw the unexplained mysterious disappearances on RUclips
+Shauna Alexandria Grammatikos Where did you get those coordinates and can you plug them into google maps?
+Emery Paulson I got them from the video of when the man was playing keyboard and the saxophone it was at the end and when i put it in google maps it comes up with it placed in the water near Sao Tome and Principe
+Shauna Alexandria Grammatikos James Renner claims one of his readers just solved the map:
mauramurray.blogspot.com/2016/02/someone-just-solved-alden-olsons-puzzle.html
+Alex C Have they found her body if it was solved?
+Shauna Alexandria Grammatikos From the post:
"I believe this is a definitive solution and clearly Olson was trying to suggest Maura's body was somewhere on the ski resort. It's unclear if the grounds were ever properly searched."
She staged am accident cause she didn't want her dad knowing she killed herself, it's better for her to just make it look like disappearance
what all do we know about mr112dirtbag? I've been searching and can't find too much information. I'm not sure which is his Alias either. What is his real name and I read somewhere that the cops did question him. Is that true and is there any place I can find the interrogation video or at least a transcript? Or at least some place it's talking about the interview? Basically I would like to know any information anybody has about this mr112dirtbag as well as what actually went missing from her car. I know you did a podcast about 3 things missing but is that all that went missing? In one of the videos mr112dirtbag uploaded with him playing the keyboard you can see items displayed on the table prominently with lights. I'm wondering what those things are displayed. did anybody look into the resort for the ticket that he had posted on his RUclips channel? I believe that could quite possibly be the scene of the crime. I believe she wanted to run away with something terrible happened along the process. I'm wondering if the murder scene is actually at the resort and happen 2 Days Later or within those two days of her abduction or alleged abduction I guess I should say. I have no doubts in my mind this girl wanted to get away from her life at least for a little while but something definitely went wrong. That's obvious.
112dirtbag is Alden Olson
+TheCheesecakedeath thank you!
Has that freak guy posted anything else since 2012 or has he gone now? I believe she is being kept captive by him.
If you mean Alton Olson, it's highly unlikely that he is actually involved at all. I'd rank the likelihood that he participated in Maura's disappearance just slightly above the possibility that he is/was holding Maura captive (which, incidentally, is ranked only above alien abduction and falling into a space/time anomaly because it's not paranormal). Alden Olson/Beagle/mr112dirtbag/names too numerous to count is just a tourist, like the rest of us. He's a tich weird, highly intelligent, and in terms of navigating through MM's evidence a bit distracting, but he seems to be Mostly Harmless. ;) Sure, his videos may be considered to be in poor taste, but so can most things Renner goes on about. XD You'll have fewer headaches if you just consider it performance art and move on.
Sorry, my phone corrected Alden to Alton.
is it true she stole a friend credit card and used it?
Yes
+jesse sarmiento honestly i think she is alive. if she were dead a body would have been found by now. She seems really shady.
+LouPremo She got the credit card number from a receipt she found in the trash. I do not believe it belonged to a friend of hers.
+Ts0usermax To me, this seems to suggest she may have had some split personality issues. She may have liked having a "bad" side. She was not hurting for money. She had a job. She was able to buy a full tank of gas. She was able to buy alcohol. So what would make her steal someone's credit card to buy pizza? I'm guessing there was someone in her life who was motivating her to do this. And that person was probably with her the night she went missing and either harmed her, or helped her disappear.
P.S. I was a college student and never, stole anyone's credit card info. Credit Card fraud is not some petty crime. And who is to say she would not have used it for larger purchases if she had not been caught? It's interesting that none of the documentaries on her seem to bring this up.
*****
Not Credit card fraud
Gentlemen, I suggest you use a script. You waste time with all kinds of nonsense information, you are scattered you are not focused it is very hard to listen to because it sounds like a high school project. I don't mean to be harsh but if you had streamlined your information and presented it in a more professional manner you may have had a better audience
I really don't want to hear the phrase "random local dirtbag" again. I don't care who said it first. It's offensive to anyone who lives in or near the area where Maura went missing. This is an over-reaching phrase and reflects badly on the area and on your reporting. By using the word "local,: the phrase borders on defining an entire community. If you're repeating a phrase you heard or read, state the source at the time you use it. If it's become your phrase, you are no longer credible.
+Veronica Mueller As someone who's equally local, I take no offense to it. I think it's always just been implied that whoever did it was both a local, and a dirtbag, and I've always been inclined to agree on both points. I don't see why so many locals in the area seem to take it so personally. I would be throwing around much worse names if it were my daughter or sister.
+If Maura was abducted, the abductor is a dirtbag. That doesn't make him/her local. Nor are we sure she was even abducted. There is just something about the phrase that makes me bristle. I lost a husband to murder, so I do understand grief and feeling the need to find the killer(s) right away. I may be over-reacting, but I think there is a better way to express this, especially in an episode that is supposed to be going over facts.
+Veronica Mueller Fred Murray originally used the phrase on 'Disappeared' many years ago. It seemed like he wanted to narrow the scope of the search at the time. It certainly doesn't reflect on an entire community.
Everybody is so offended by everything nowadays. Unless they say "in an area this rich in dirtbags" or something, then seriously stop looking for things to be offended by. If someone loved locally and is a dirtbag then they are a local dirtbag. Every area in the world has good and bad people.