People have been confused about her car. If it had a bad cylinder that means she was basically going to have to buy a new engine. It would have taken more money to fix her car as opposed to it's worth. That's why he told her to put the rag in her tail pipe it's because of the bad cylinder. It will keep it from dying and keep it idling higher. I know exactly what her dad was talking about with that car I had a 92 Accord that would bog down and run like crap, the head gasket gushed oil. It had terrible oil leaks it got into a lot of components. That rag technique was a temporary fix just to keep it from idling so low it would die. It also probably kept running a little longer, it was a temporary fix. Her dad was probably trying to find her a cheap car, there has been so much made about her dad drawing that money out. I think he sss trying to buy her a cheap car to get around in. Her car was barely running, it wouldn't have ran much longer it was on it's last leg. Her dad was trying to help her, that's it. More had been made about all that. It is exactly what it was.
Maybe I'm missing something about the Head and Shoulders.... Isn't that just dandruff shampoo? I'm currently a 22 year old woman and I have used it for dandruff. I never have considered it to be men's shampoo.
Great work, yet again, Lance and Tim. As a woman, I agree this perspective had been loudly absent, and clearly, it serves to expose and inform some of the subtler sticking points in the story. I am Maura's age, snack on pickles - and since they aren't messy but a low-cal choice for eating kinda mindlessly, I do so most often on road trips, in fact! - just today used my own Head and Shoulders, would have NEVER gone with Butch or any strange man inviting me into his home in the darkness of a far-away town, definitely would have made multiple calls to my dad about accident reports, etc. (And I will now be using the term embarrassment sweat in regular conversation. I love that you seem to be feeling more comfortable and are letting yourselves cut loose. I laughed out loud at you two a few times during this episode.)
Yes! This is similar to what I wanted to say. Head and Shoulders 2 in 1 is the shampoo I've been using for years, and I eat pickles all the time because they are tasty and have no calories. I'm glad a woman was on here to just kind of confirm some of these things I was thinking while listening to that episode. These two are awesome, but they really didn't seem to have a clue about some of the stuff in that car.
Do you really think your listeners would be concerned about getting the FBI involved because it may put an end to our 'entertainment'?? I found that a little offensive.
+Bianca Armendy Right. And what's this FBI worship going on around here. People act as though as soon as they get the case they'll either find Maura or at least do a far better job than previous investigators. In truth the FBI are way overrated.
+Missing Maura Murray how come names said the fbi arent involved in episode 6 when you guys were talking about how maura could be using her own social securtiy number.. and now hes saying theyre involved and have been the whole time? so confuused
Very good podcast episode! I do have to point out, however, that the dorm room being packed up or not was not something left fuzzy by the lead investigator into Maura's disappearance. So either he and his department are lying or others are downplaying how the dorm room was truly found. And if they are down-playing it, you have to ask why? The actual press release from the police department of the lead investigator into Maura's disappearance said: "By Monday morning Feb 9, Maura had packed up all of her belongings in her dorm room at UMASS, putting everything neatly in boxes and putting all of the boxes on her bed along with a personal note she had recently received from her boyfriend." The lead investigator has also said in news interviews that maura's drawers were cleaned out and her art taken down from her walls as well. And a fellow nursing student was brought to the dorm room to take a look at it and her response was that Maura appeared to be moving out for good.
+Clint Harting They're talking about what the 17 magazine journalist was told by Maura's friends just a few months after Maura disappeared. Maura's friends said her dorm room wasn't completely packed. How much was left unpacked, who knows? I don't think this is a conspiracy. I think it's just what Maura's friends remember.
+Raina Really I fully understand. The family has been pushing this notion all along that Maura "May not have unpacked yet from winter break." The police investigators from UMASS briefed the lead investigator on the case that the dorm room was completely packed up, art from the walls taken down and all items in the drawers removed. Stacked boxes were on the bed with a note on top of the boxes. Someone is completely wrong about this (and I see no reason why it would be the police). The police wouldn't be able to get away with lying about this considering Billy Rausch went into Maura's dorm room at the same time as police did, so their accounts should match up. Someone in this instance is not being truthful. And the question that remains from this is ... WHY?
I've been following this case for years and the one thing I thought was interesting about this podcast was the revelation, which I never heard before, that Julie Murray's boyfriend in 2004 was best friends with Billy Rausch. Would it be fair to assume that Julie and Billy spent time together without Maura being present? Would Julie know things about Billy through her boyfriend that others (including Maura) might not? Were Julie and Billy friends themselves? Many years ago, either on the Renner's blog or on a topix site, I remember someone speculating that the upsetting phone call that Maura got the night she was on duty at the dorm was from her sister Julie and not Kathleen as many have speculated. Could Julie have told Maura something disturbing about Billy? I believe the poster even suggested that perhaps Julie had slept with Billy. I dismissed the suggestion as totally outlandish at the time but now, knowing that they actually had a common boyfriend/best friend, I wonder if it's worth considering... While it doesn't explain her disappearance (which I tend to think isn't linked to what happened before the accident) it might explain Maura's odd behavior in the days before her disappearance as well as the trip up north to gather her thoughts. It might also explain why the family doesn't want to dwell on what happened prior to her disappearance either. Am I out in left field here?
+Savryn Myst On the phone records, the call listed as Kathleen has a location of Hanover, MA. Was that Julie's residence or whereabouts at that time? I don't believe Kathleen having been on that call is only speculation, as she has gone on record as having been the one on the phone with Maura at that time, saying Maura didn't seem upset during the call and mentioned that they talked about some issues Kathleen and Tim were going through.
You are right. I just checked the phone logs on Renner's site. I just thought it was strange to find out after all this time that Julie had a connection to Billy that went beyond simply going to West Point with him. at minimum, I wouldn't be surprised if Julie's boyfriend ratted Billy out to Julie who in turn told her sister about his behavior if he was cheating on her.
I do believe I read somewhere, however, that Billy did cheat on Maura with one of Julie's friends though and that this was mentioned in the email printed out and found on the boxes in her dorm. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (*EDIT* I just reread your comment and I think you already knew what I mentioned.)
I disagree with the idea that a blinking cell phone light could not be mistaken for a burning cigarette. When someone inhales a cigarette, the burning end gets brighter. And the glow isn't stationary because the smoker is moving it to their mouth and away again. I think it's more likely that a blinking light would be mistaken for a cigarette than a solid, constant light. (Yes, I've spent way too much time thinking about that "glow in the car.")
+Jillian Kuzma I've often thought of trying to find one of those particular phones on Ebay or something just to see what the "blink" looks like. I can't find any videos online showing this.The faster it blinks, to me the less likely I find mistaking it for a cigarette, but If it slowly "pulses" though, I can see what you mean.
+Alex C Thanks for looking this up, by the way. I actually don't think any cell phone light would be mistaken for cigarette, but a blinking light seems more likely to me. I think the only way to figure out what the "glow" was would be for the Westmans to clarify what they saw.
I know a lot of people think that the damage on the front of Maura’s car could’ve been from an accident previous to her leaving UMASS that Monday and if that was the case, did the investigators even ask/interview/ people and places she stopped at or maybe stopped or that was on her route to NH and see if any of the businesses/stoplight cams/tollways/home cameras etc., actually got her on surveillance cameras driving her car and see if here was any damage to the front of her vehicle or not?
Good episode. The whole room packed up or not was confusing. I think the confusion was about "packed" as in took with her in the car. And "packed" as in her dorm room belongings were packed in boxes _left in her room_. I think the whole room packed up issue needs clarification . This is possibly the best evidence for her mind set/reason for leaving.
+samira dasa its not that complicated actually. The lead investigator has said her room was completely packed as she had everything neatly packed into boxes stacked on her bed with a note on the top of the boxes. So all that is left is to determine IS whether or not that description is a complete lie and the lead investigator into her disappearance has some serious credibility issues or whether or not someone or someone's family spokesperson has seriously tried to down-play those findings for whatever reason. I don't see the gray area with this
+Ltnt. Columbo It could be she was having issues with school (wasn't meshing, had few friends) and was going to leave when she returned. I don't believe she would run away. Shit wasn't THAT bad.
Did anybody ever go and check out the coordinates sent to you in detail? I have been thinking for a while now, since there is no cell reception there, maybe she just didn't want to trouble the bus driver and went out to take a walk, trying to find cell phone service? Also, I had a samsung phone very similar to hers, which had a very similar crescent shaped light at the cover, unfortunatelly I don't know the exact model their designations are kinda hard to remember, but it was aproximately at that time, but what I can tell for sure is that mine was in fact glowing red while charging. I know that battery of a phone would drain really fast trying to find cell phone service, so is it possible that she was charging her phone in the car? Did her car had a "lighter" to connect the charger? Was the charger in the car? Those samsung phones had a pretty strong led light back then.
+Branko Petek I'm glad you bring these points up. Here is a link to the manual for the model of phone Maura had: downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200708/20070823231517515_sprint_a620_vga1000_ug.pdf One thing I missed in the manual the first time was this: "If a Travel Charger is used to charge the battery, a red light is displayed when the flip is closed. When the flip is open, an animated battery icon is displayed on the screen. When the battery is completely charged, a green light is displayed continuously." So according to that, if she had been using a travel charger, the phone may have displayed a continuous red light, and I was wrong in my previous statement that the phone never displays a constant red light. It only does so while charging. The Samsung Travel charger (despite the"Travel" in the name) still requires being plugged into a standard two-prong wall outlet. As seen here: www.amazon.com/Samsung-MM-A700-Travel-Charger-TAD177JSEB/dp/B0009PL3RA Another thing I hadn't seen before posting my findings on the phone, was a post on Renner's blog dated 11/1/15 (mauramurray.blogspot.com/2015/11/what-they-found-in-mauras-car.html) that details a list of items found in her car (the accuracy of the list is debated, but I believe Tim and Lance were given the same info). In that list is the Samsung Travel charger as well as "-AC Cell phone power adapters". Maybe these adapters could allow the two-prong Travel charger to have been plugged into the cigarette lighter (assuming '96 Saturns have them, I have not looked into that), and perhaps she did try to charge it. I've never seen anything more info pop up on these adapters. They could have been adapters similar to ones Europeans need to use over here, but that seems unlikely for her to have had on her. I'm curious if there any more details on these adapters available, and if they were found out in the open in her car or packed away.
+Alex C I am from Europe and I don't understand the term "travel charger". I understand that you as always would get an original charger for your phone and back then practicly none of those were universal, all manufacturers had their own port. Of course, you could buy original or third party chargers to plug in your car's cigarette lighter port at almost any gas station here. Are those what they call "travel chargers"? If so, and in any other case, I have never ever had a mobile phone that would "understand" the difference between the wall socket and being plugged in a car's cigarette lighter in a way that it would or would not turn on or off a certain led light.
+Branko Petek There are two Samsung-branded chargers listed for that phone, according to the manual. One called the "Desktop charger", the other (the one I linked to) is called the "Travel charger" and does not plug directly into a car lighter (as shown in the link), both have (US) standard two-prong plugs. In the report of items the charger is specifically listed as "Samsung Travel charger" and not third-party, though I speculated in my comment on Episode 19 that she may have had a third-party adapter. The manual makes no mention of the Desktop charger causing the red light, only the Travel charger, but like you, I assume any charging would cause the light. What power source the charger is plugged into (wall, car, etc.) would have no effect on the light. The only thing the adapters figure into, is whether or not she could have actually plugged the charger in in her car.
+Alex C I have been comparing her car to other 1996 Saturns and sure enough, found what I think is the same model of the car. Comparing the photo that shows tiny bit of her car's interior to the 1996 Saturn interior I found on "Car Gurus" website I would agree that it is a match, with the interior containing a standard cigarette lighter socket on the lower left side of the center dashboard. Links for comparison: s10.photobucket.com/user/MauraMurray/media/maura_0001.jpg.html static.cargurus.com/images/site/2015/11/15/14/22/1996_saturn_s-series_4_dr_sl2_sedan-pic-6017037960488517449-640x480.jpeg
+Branko Petek So now the questions I'm left with are: 1) Did the adapter mentioned in the list convert a 2-prong plug to car lighter, or was it some other sort of adapter? And 2) Was the adapter/charger out in the open, like she may have been trying to use it, or was it packed away? Those 2 answers will get us a little closer to whether or not the cell phone could have been mistaken for a cigarette.
Interesting hearing Maura's emails to her girlfriends. I'm confused . I distinctly remember you guys making a point about the fact she 'hadn't even seen her HS girlfriends since getting to Umass. ' it was brought up like she had disconnected herself from her friends in the podcast. But here we are hearing she hadn't . ??
it doesnt matter who doesnt agree with signing this petition, what matters is mauras family wants it. imagine if it were your loves one, wouldn't u want all and any help possible? also, I dont understand how james could say that psychics may not be the real deal but exploring all possibilities is what he wants to do, yet hes so adimant about not bringing in the fbi. furthermore, since their "already involved" like hes saying, than why be so against this petition? especially since mauras family want it so bad.
If the car hit a tree the bumper which sticks out further than the damaged light would be dented in. The damage is above the bumper and not on the bumper. To me it looks like when you hit another car that is higher than yours and your bumper goes under other cars bumper and light hit another bumper. Or something similar. It definitely did not hit a tree and anyone with common sense or slight knowledge of fender benders would know this. Just my two cents. I started following this podcast/case a week ago and I'm hooked. I am 1 1/2 hours away and travel through that area all the time in summer and especially in winter due to snowmobiling in nh.
that is a good point. also would be consistent with that witnesses account if seeing 001 suv(a vehicle whose front end would have been higher then hers) parked "nose to nose" with mauras. could 001 have hit maura or vise versa?
Maybe the Haverhill SUV 001 hit her while he was drunk and put her into his cruiser drove away and killed her to cover it up and the Haverhill police are giving out just enough information to protect whoever was driving 001 SUV. .statement to witness A was 001 was out of commission when and why was that cruiser out of commission????
It's 4 years late, but... First off, people CAN take the perspective of other genders without apologizing in this bs pc way. I honestly find Lance and the other guy to have fairly bad intuitions about what is "normal". It's the kind of thinking that gets jurys to convict innocent people based on "common sense". I defy anyone to intuit Fred's mind, or Adler's. Also, a college kid is just that if they're still wrecking cars, partying constantly, and need daddy to come help them out. She was a kid. Enough with this pc bs that keeps everyone walking on eggshells and hating themselves.
It's been said for years that Butch Atwood had offered to let Maura wait in his house but that she refused. That's something that you just happened to miss which is understandable given how many snippets of information are swirling around. In any case Butch was known to have changed his story a few times to the chagrin of investigators. He also came to refuse to be interviewed by investigators as John Healy reported on the old Maura Murray site run by a family member of Maura. Healy had gone all the way to Florida to talk with Butch but Butch refused to be interviewed. The biggest piece of info provided by the woman interviewed is that she and her feminist friends hate being called girls and hated that Maura was referred to as a girl gone missing. Thanks for adding nothing.
+spikeitfool1 I have to agree with you. I'm a female, and it didn't once occur to me that it was offensive to call her a girl. She was a young lady, aka--girl, lol.
I haven't read through all the comments so forgive me if this has been said. I am a smoker and if I had gotten in to an accident with a friend driving or even myself...etc..I would absolutely have smoked a cigarette after. However I would absolutely not have smoked a cigarette in the passenger seat after the airbags have been deployed. I have been in an accident where the front car had its air bags deployed. I was the 3rd of 4th car in line in the pileup. The gentleman with his airbags deployed began having a reaction to the powder that comes with the airbag. This accident was around 2004 as well. So keep in mind the particles and possible reactions someone could have to this. I honestly don't know for sure if this has a high likelihood of happening, but I was always warned against smoking near a vehicle in that situation. You can have breathing problems, as well as (and here I was told but im not sure how true it is) that you can get powder burns from these particles, and there may be fluids leaking from the car, with the powder and/or chemicals you could ignite something if you choose to smoke at that time. So even if that is or isn't a for sure, the powder in the air definitely effects air/breathing quality. So I don't think its likely for someone to smoke in the passenger seat.
I think maura was pregnant and possibly heading to have an abortion (hence the missing $$$) and after the abortion she wanted lodgings to recuperate. I think when she stated " a death in the family" she meant the oncoming death of her child
I agree. She may have meant an abortion, which is a kind of sick sense of humor. But I think, like James Renner, that she had the baby & went to Canada. Most people know a death in the family is an acceptable reason for absence & that the professor or employer will not oppose it. This is probably what Maura thought when she said "death in the family". Professors understand this & accept it.
Xander Taylor exactly my point!!! I’m a student and I have thought about this excuse a lot i haven’t done it but it’s the 1. thing that comes to my mind when I want an excuse for uni bc that’s the only excuse they can’t oppose to!!!
Identity politics. I suppose only female police officers should be permitted to investigate her disappearance. And if a dreadful man has the evidence to solve her case, he should just keep it to himself and wait for a woman to truly solve it. I mean this episode is just bad and pointless.
You don't need to ruin a good podcast by lecturing your listeners like we are naughty children. If anything it is more likely to turn people off signing the petition.
I agree that it is what the family wants and it's worth trying, nothing wrong with saying that. You just turned it into a full on rant. Even suggesting that some of your listeners might not want closure for the family because it would ruin their entertainment. It just came across as condescending to your listeners and self righteous. The rest of the podcast was great though. Probably one of your best.
+Missing Maura Murray there was a lecture, and it did get offensive. Enough that i'm commenting. You also *may* be missing the mark asking us to sign to support the family that your own podcast has made clear - isn't doing everything to help themselves. Buuuut, that said.... I'm over it, because I get what you guys are trying to do here, and I get that you guys are learning this whole podcast process as you go along. Overall - it's working, and you are doing a great job getting better and better. So nice job. Because of that (and well - frankly, because I'd like to know what happened to Maura) I'm off now to sign your petition.... and in reflection, I am sure you guys will work on that part where you don't treat your listeners like they're as*holes :)
Same. I feel like those who got offended aren't really listening. We are passively involved, some folks actively, but this is not about us. There are people that get obsessed with these types of cases, and get in the way of what's best for the victim and victim's family.
Just a note on suicide: A friend of mine committed suicide this fall, and people were very confused by it because she had apparently made peace with it, seemed happy the night of (she went out and spent time with friends that night), and prior to it she made plans with friends in the future. People were blindsided by it. Many people who commit suicide never tell anyone of their plans.
+Savryn Myst I hope so. Renner has lost all credibility over the years. Nearly every accusation he has viciously lobbed at someone related to the case is soon followed up with a meager mea culpa: I was wrong. Well, an experienced, well-followed journalist wields too much power to regularly indulge in harmful speculation. Fred is pervy? Billy was basically Maura's Messiah, but her family shit on her from birth? Maura the possible Canadian was a sociopath with a fondness for both orgies and maniacal driving? The criminal record of the father of college friend Kate is relevant to this discussion in ANY way? (I'll stop there.) The idea of a police cover-up is WAY more defensible in my eyes than most of what Renner HAS deemed absolute. I love Tim and Lance, and their work is becoming more and more important and responsible with every episode. In other words, their investigatory trajectory is trending in a direction opposite to that drawn by Renner. I mean, the reader who followed up on Faith's cigarette report and researched the cell phone could remind Renner of the nature of correctly conducted investigations - the tedious busywork that may prove fruitless, the double- and triple-checking, the frustrating analyzing, etc. This episode offers a great example of all this: Tim and Lance are constantly seeking feedback, including - especially, I suspect - that which is less than flattering. They graciously own and concede to their own missteps, and this has continued to invite valuable sources' cooperation, bringing progress to the case. Renner, totally incredibly, will instead nastily snap at readers who post thoughts contrary to his. Accordingly, he seems to be encountering more and more roadblocks to his reporting, which, frankly and in my opinion alone, is turning it into weird nonsense. (Check out the post about this FBI petition; one commenter, who dared to disagree with Renner's characterization and reported level of the bureau's involvement in the investigation, earned the following from him: "Good God, [name]. They are involved." Way to show appreciation for one of the rare individuals who remains an engaged reader - and who offered a common, valid opinion, I thought.)
+Melissa L I am completely unbiased when it comes to Renner, I'm not a fan nor do I dislike him, but in the interest of fairness, isn't that what investigators do with cold cases? Develop a theory based on some vague information, and then rule it out later, and move on to something new. This case is especially ripe with theories and strange evidence (and LACK of evidence), so does it surprise you that he's been wrong a dozen times after working on this mind boggling case for so long? That being said, he does seem a little too emotionally invested in the case lately. I wonder if there's any new information in the book that he's anxious to get out? He also seemed a little hostile in his last blogpost, I will definitely give you that. If people don't understand what you're saying in the comments, there's no need to argue with them. You're asking to get trolled by some moron when you do shit like that.
+Cameron Brwdway Great feedback, Cameron, thank you. I totally agree with your opinion about Renner and his increasingly pronounced emotionality, another big - and sometimes tempting - no-no for reporters (I, too, am a longtime journalist, which may help explain why I probably sound like an obnoxious know-it-all!). I respected and appreciated his work for years, often posting comments and referring friends to it, but I just cannot support how inflammatory, even irrational, his blog and media appearances have become. You are absolutely right; investigation invites speculation. But as he presents himself as a *journalist* and his book as a news reference, his opinions must be tempered and evidence-based - of course at this point it would be unreasonable to expect him to refrain all together from editorializing - and ideally introduced not by himself but by credible sources, including other journalists and official records. His theories flip-flop wildly, his writing betrays an offensive hostility. He makes - to me, inexplicable declarations - to quote him verbatim, she was a sociopath; of course she was - that he identifies as absolute one day and totally off-base the next. Instead of cruelly attacking those who refuse to bend to his requirements, he ought to take their (unanimous?) defensiveness as a clear sign that his approach is bizarre and worse yet, ineffective. Sara Alfieri was, as he admitted, terrified by his visit to her home, and it is no wonder; either she exposes herself to his unpredictable, unreliable, irreperable theorizing, or risks being publicly targeted for another of his irrelevant dirt-digging missions. If Westman had mowed his yard with Renner on the scene instead of Lance and Tim, the man would now be immortalized online as having a lawn fetish and a hallucinating wife. He is a bully hurling abuse, not a trustworthy journalist laying bare facts aimed at furthering the case for the sake of his readership, which, based on the shrinking comments section, seems to dwindle with every new post. What a shame.
Melissa L I never thought too much about the seemingly out of the blue accusations, much less about how that might effect his future interviews AND sever ties with the connections he's already made, but you're right. Alienating your sources is generally a bad practice, LOL. But anyway, he has definitely gotten a little too close to the case. And now that I think about it, all those accusations might be the result of garnering too much anxiety/getting too emotionally invested in it all. You just have to keep in mind that either way, he's trying to help, he believes he is, and he does want to find out what happened to Maura, that's for sure.
Really enjoyed this episode and thought the Seventeen article was very interesting. I didn't realize Butch Atwood had said he thought she had been drinking, I always heard he said she was "shaken up." Didn't Tim Westman say that at some point, although supposedly he never went outside? Also the mention of the open Skyy Blue can in the front seat that was supposedly bought with the red wine? I've heard of the diet coke bottle with the wine, but didn't hear that she had an open wine cooler too. Didn't it come out at some point that a grocery store cashier thought she had seen Maura that day in NH buying blue wine coolers with two other girls? Not sure if that's been discussed/debunked before...
I've been following for months, and bravo on having a female perspective! Definitely needed. Listening to this episode, I might have forgotten this but do we have all of the records of tips and reports from UMass? Thinking, if someone got her away message and called to say they saw her at the party and something went down or anything like that, was it reported? We all know how colleges sweep certain things under the rug, hoping all leads were followed. Hm.
+Erica Bradshaw still doesn't make sense to me. So if a black guy went missing... should only black guys be looking for him? or should we only hear a black guys perspective. I'm not against having her on here or anything. I just dont see how it is "refreshing". Its not like she added anything new or different.
+Will Donnell I was merely stating it was nice to hear a female voice because it's usually just men making commentary or the hosts. I literally just liked hearing a new voice on the show. You're reading into it more than you should.
+Erica Bradshaw its usually "just men making commentary" or "just men as hosts" because it IS men who are the hosts. I don't know why womenvhave to bring sexism into everything in their life.
How many pedestrians were hit on campus while Maura was enrolled, compared to before and after? Man, she crashed a whole bunch of cars during that short span of time.
The actual discussion of her research doesn't start until at least 25 minutes in. If you can deal with this nerdy, self centered, narcissistic female's annoying voice it is a halfway decent interview.
I don't think she planned this with someone to run away. Wouldn't you wait until much later like 11:00 pm or midnight when it's darker and no traffic? Her father has nothing to do with her disappearance or knows where she is. You would not be asking psychics years later. A psychic is a guilty person's worst nightmare if they truly have any intuitive talents. She also probably didn't die in the woods. Her remains/clothing would have been found by now. I believe someone from there picked her up and did her in. Too bad Butch Atwood didn't stay with her until help arrived.
Hi guys, I just caught up through episode 22 (except for missing episode 18...why did you take it down?). I'm more of a passive listener since I don't really comment but episode 21 is my favorite because KF covered/called you guys on so many things I had issues with while listening. I think a female perspective is very valuable to give insight on this case and I think that whatever KF is doing behind the scenes is great. I've been listening because I was about the same age as Maura when she went missing and I feel like I can empathize with her. I hope the family gets some sort of closure soon. I've also signed the FBI petition.
Ive done some Research there Is a guy that uploaded a strange video on the anniversary of her disappearance that Led Me too find out that the guy Is a Alden Olson! disturbingly when you go to his facebook he lists his college as the same as The girl that went missing!!!
+Lydia Harmon um. I'm a girl. We bought our last house 3 years ago. I still have clothes boxes "unpacked" in my closet. I kid u not. People are all different. And my understanding was she had just recently gotten to Umass.
We're not talking about a couple of boxes not being unpacked. Everything was taken off her walls, cleaned out of the drawers, and everything was not only boxed up but stacked on her bed with a note on top about her boyfriend cheating. That's deliberate "I'm out of here" behavior.
So she went from being excited about a comedian to packing up her dorm and leaving for NH. Yes, anything can happen in a short amount of time, but packing up your room at college in FEBRUARY is weird to me if she wasn't planning on leaving school. I am not saying she ran away from her life. But that's pretty big now after hearing her in an email with HIGH SCHOOL friends. Not college friends. HS. Was she uncomfortable in college in general? I had a friend in college who had a hard time. We're best friends currently and I still have no real idea why she neatly flunked out and eventually unenrolled completely and started working full time. She has always had significant family problems and was raised by her cousin most of her life. But she, to date, sees her family pretty regularly despite the stresses, which she laughs about.
+Ltnt. Columbo Really? Because all kinds of comments discuss all kinds f scenarios. How is that one different? We have no idea if she liked college or not? I see no rant in that passage. Chill please :)
I personally interpret all of her behavior that we’ve been told about as, she didn’t like college. Not West Point, not umass, none of them. College is not for everyone and some people come to realize the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for their particular situation. That’s what Maura’s actions looked like to me. Then especially after learning about Billy’s cheating, as one of her reasons for choosing umass when she left West Point was to be near Billy, I think she was like F this I’m outta here. So I think your instincts in this comment are right on.
No reputable writer would put something into an article if you can’t verify it period, if she took it credible she would have wrote down the source in her notes 📝 especially if writing for Seventeen (legal wouldn’t allow it)
I wonder what would constitute a reason for her to be allowed to take time off and still get paid for her job & not get in trouble for missing a few days of school. Perhaps the only way she could take off and not get in trouble was to make up the excuse of a death in the family.
She knows that. She's simply saying what would constitute a good reason to leave for a week? A death (or emergency) in the family would be a good excuse (although a lie) to take a week off. With that being said, although I don't believe it one bit, we have to consider the thought that if Maura genuinely did say "there's a death in the family," she perhaps was talking about herself and committed suicide. I don't believe that, but we just have to keep that in mind.
You get criticism because you're in dire need of it. We all do things that we look back on years later and cringe at, but it's not usually at this scale. Everybody who is making suggestions or providing criticism wants this podcast, and eventually the documentary, to be better than it has been so far- we don't want this to be cringeworthy for ANYONE. It's frustrating to see you consistently writing your listeners off as trolls and ignoring what they say just because they aren't stroking your ego. (And making condescending lectures at us like we're selfish little children? Not helping your ratings.)
Hi Guys, Aren't you all forgetting that the police don't consider someone a missing person until they have been gone for 48 hours? I kept thinking that while listening to the podcast. Now I'm not saying that the police handled everything correctly, but this whole idea that the case was cold after 36 hours....yes, but at that point the police probably weren't treating it as a missing person investigation yet. Maybe that is why more wasn't done immediately. Most instances where an adult goes missing resolve themselves before the 48 hour window is over. In this case knowing what we know, hindsight it 20/20.
I think sending people to sign an FBI petition is sending them on a wild goose chase. They've already been involved in the case tangentially. They probably know much more than we do & if they thought that Maura was really an endangered missing person, they'd have been involved already. I believe people at the NHSP have told them that Maura left to start a new life & there is no need for the FBI to get involved. That's why they're leaving it alone. My opinion.
I still get a bad feeling about the bus driver,I feel he did something to Maura,she left the scene to fast for it to be anyone else and the dogs tracked right to his house.as a woman I feel he is hiding something.is it true the bus driver has died ?
Some people think being critical about everything makes them more intelligent...Is this why people are unnecessarily critical in comments section...? Also, I feel some of the naysayers are jealous of the ambition of these podcasters...
Interesting episode guys. I think you need to try and accept that some people haven't embraced your work and will look to be critical. There's little sense letting it concern you. I can not recall exactly what was said regarding the birth control found in her car but I do remember thinking you were not considering the secondary purpose of such medication. I know you must get a lot of feedback but I sent you a rather long email with some questions and suggestions but did not receive a reply.
+blueillyria blue Thanks a lot. We do get a lot of emails and it's difficult to respond to them all. It's just two of us responding and we both have jobs too. Apologies for not responding.
In regards to the "man smoking a cigarette or the red glow" the witness reported as seeing. First of all, in most photos of Maura, she wore her hair pulled back which could be misinterpreted, at a distance, as a "man"? Second, the red glow, if seen from a certain angle, could it possibly have been a taillight, while the other could have been obstructed from view by a car or trees, etc, all depends on the angle one is viewing it from a distance? Just brainstorming, thanks.
Yet another theory, as I'm not familiar with a taser or incapacitating tools, would any of those give off a red glow or light if utilized? Still pondering.
+Laura Denham According to Atwood's account, the girl driving the car had "shoulder-length brown hair", which would suggest the driver had her hair down. As far as the taillight, the car was facing the opposite direction when it was in the roadway. Though it could have been a reflection. Another commenter mentioned a red light that those particular Saturn's had on the dashboard, but again it was facing the opposite direction, but may have been reflecting off something. To me, one curious aspect of that is that it's commonly accepted that the witnesses who called 911, FW, may have interpreted this light as a cigarette, but that her husband, TW, was never really under the impression that it was "a man smoking a cigarette" and that he thought it was a cellphone or charger. I recent;y found this blog post which seems to conflict with the way I (and quite a few others) interpreted this: notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/ "I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was? He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger." This has been brought up a few times recently, but I think it might be worth noting.
+Alex C Thank you for your response, I did read the link you inserted. So the car's headlights would have been facing the witness's direction. I guess what I'm referring to, if that was the direction, is it possible a vehicle could have been coming from the opposite direction the car was facing, therefore the taillights would have been facing the witness's view, and only one taillight could have been observed, the other being obstructed by either her car (vehicle drove around and was slightly behind her car), tree, etc?
Also, if it were a cellphone charger, we know those are connected in cigarette lighters, therefore, below the dashboard, also facing the opposite direction?
+Laura Denham Correct, the vehicle was facing Westbound, more toward (but not directly at) the witnesses' house. On the accident report diagram done by the responding officer (shown here): 31.media.tumblr.com/3ba917a37af65fab8517e4f0f530f13b/tumblr_inline_my5fbr28BL1s90qds.png The vehicle is labelled #1 and the pointed end shows the direction it was facing. #70 on the diagram is the house of the witnesses mentioned.
I think the most likely situation is she hit her car was drunk driving so she left the scene of the crime and froze to death because there's like nothing out there. She ran past the Homes and at that point there is nothing on the road. She didn't know where to go it was freezing maybe she stopped to sleep and because it was 12° out she froze to death. as to why they didn't find her body who knows it snowed for 12 years since then.
@@RustCole01 I know it's a joke. I think it's also satirizing cancel culture... This is what people actually do. It's a good example of poe's law. Poe's law is very interesting.
The "woman" vs "girl" thing makes me tired. Call me a woman, a girl, a broad, a bitch--whatever--I don't care. I know what I am and someone's label doesn't impact or damage my sense of self. To me, using the term "girl" as it is commonly used, is the same as referring to a bunch of men as "guys". Just a common short-cut as someone said. Toughen up, ladies. Be what you profess to be. (I do notice that KF herself uses the term "girls" at one point when referring to Maura's group of friends who received her last email--what? only a week before she went missing? when Maura herself was a "woman"?) Anyway, off the soapbox----- Lance & Tim, you have a treasure in KF. She appears to be energetic, sharp and fastidious--everything that's needed when dealing with a case like this. She thinks logically, seems quick to notice errors and contradictions, and in short, is just the type of mind to successfully keep a case such as this on the right track. I look forward to more of her. That Clint Hartin is good too, btw. Basically, this is just to say thanks for actually doing what I can only give lip service to. Keep up the truly good work.
I think it’s great that he admitted not understanding women. I don’t care if men call us girls btw, that’s not a real issue. The issue is that they OBVIOUSLY did not understand Maura’s female behavior and yet they were picking apart her very normal female behaviors as not normal. This is why people were begging them to get a female on.
I think it's a naive assumption to assume that men aren't capable of understanding that Maura would be scared of Butch Atwood in that situation...
People have been confused about her car. If it had a bad cylinder that means she was basically going to have to buy a new engine. It would have taken more money to fix her car as opposed to it's worth. That's why he told her to put the rag in her tail pipe it's because of the bad cylinder. It will keep it from dying and keep it idling higher. I know exactly what her dad was talking about with that car I had a 92 Accord that would bog down and run like crap, the head gasket gushed oil. It had terrible oil leaks it got into a lot of components. That rag technique was a temporary fix just to keep it from idling so low it would die. It also probably kept running a little longer, it was a temporary fix. Her dad was probably trying to find her a cheap car, there has been so much made about her dad drawing that money out. I think he sss trying to buy her a cheap car to get around in. Her car was barely running, it wouldn't have ran much longer it was on it's last leg. Her dad was trying to help her, that's it. More had been made about all that. It is exactly what it was.
Maybe I'm missing something about the Head and Shoulders.... Isn't that just dandruff shampoo? I'm currently a 22 year old woman and I have used it for dandruff. I never have considered it to be men's shampoo.
Jamie Oakes yeah, it’s men’s or women’s. I use it twice a week just in case.
Great work, yet again, Lance and Tim. As a woman, I agree this perspective had been loudly absent, and clearly, it serves to expose and inform some of the subtler sticking points in the story. I am Maura's age, snack on pickles - and since they aren't messy but a low-cal choice for eating kinda mindlessly, I do so most often on road trips, in fact! - just today used my own Head and Shoulders, would have NEVER gone with Butch or any strange man inviting me into his home in the darkness of a far-away town, definitely would have made multiple calls to my dad about accident reports, etc. (And I will now be using the term embarrassment sweat in regular conversation. I love that you seem to be feeling more comfortable and are letting yourselves cut loose. I laughed out loud at you two a few times during this episode.)
Yes! This is similar to what I wanted to say. Head and Shoulders 2 in 1 is the shampoo I've been using for years, and I eat pickles all the time because they are tasty and have no calories. I'm glad a woman was on here to just kind of confirm some of these things I was thinking while listening to that episode. These two are awesome, but they really didn't seem to have a clue about some of the stuff in that car.
Do you really think your listeners would be concerned about getting the FBI involved because it may put an end to our 'entertainment'?? I found that a little offensive.
+Bianca Armendy Right. And what's this FBI worship going on around here. People act as though as soon as they get the case they'll either find Maura or at least do a far better job than previous investigators. In truth the FBI are way overrated.
Fair enough.
+Pasic TP Signing can't hurt.
+Bianca Armendy We're not trying to offend. We realize it was a strong take. We're just trying to help get as many signatures as possible.
+Missing Maura Murray how come names said the fbi arent involved in episode 6 when you guys were talking about how maura could be using her own social securtiy number.. and now hes saying theyre involved and have been the whole time? so confuused
Very good podcast episode! I do have to point out, however, that the dorm room being packed up or not was not something left fuzzy by the lead investigator into Maura's disappearance. So either he and his department are lying or others are downplaying how the dorm room was truly found. And if they are down-playing it, you have to ask why? The actual press release from the police department of the lead investigator into Maura's disappearance said: "By Monday morning Feb 9, Maura had packed up all of her belongings in her dorm room at UMASS, putting everything neatly in boxes and putting all of the boxes on her bed along with a personal note she had recently received from her boyfriend." The lead investigator has also said in news interviews that maura's drawers were cleaned out and her art taken down from her walls as well. And a fellow nursing student was brought to the dorm room to take a look at it and her response was that Maura appeared to be moving out for good.
+Clint Harting They're talking about what the 17 magazine journalist was told by Maura's friends just a few months after Maura disappeared. Maura's friends said her dorm room wasn't completely packed. How much was left unpacked, who knows? I don't think this is a conspiracy. I think it's just what Maura's friends remember.
+Raina Really I fully understand. The family has been pushing this notion all along that Maura "May not have unpacked yet from winter break." The police investigators from UMASS briefed the lead investigator on the case that the dorm room was completely packed up, art from the walls taken down and all items in the drawers removed. Stacked boxes were on the bed with a note on top of the boxes. Someone is completely wrong about this (and I see no reason why it would be the police). The police wouldn't be able to get away with lying about this considering Billy Rausch went into Maura's dorm room at the same time as police did, so their accounts should match up. Someone in this instance is not being truthful. And the question that remains from this is ... WHY?
I've been following this case for years and the one thing I thought was interesting about this podcast was the revelation, which I never heard before, that Julie Murray's boyfriend in 2004 was best friends with Billy Rausch. Would it be fair to assume that Julie and Billy spent time together without Maura being present? Would Julie know things about Billy through her boyfriend that others (including Maura) might not? Were Julie and Billy friends themselves?
Many years ago, either on the Renner's blog or on a topix site, I remember someone speculating that the upsetting phone call that Maura got the night she was on duty at the dorm was from her sister Julie and not Kathleen as many have speculated. Could Julie have told Maura something disturbing about Billy? I believe the poster even suggested that perhaps Julie had slept with Billy. I dismissed the suggestion as totally outlandish at the time but now, knowing that they actually had a common boyfriend/best friend, I wonder if it's worth considering...
While it doesn't explain her disappearance (which I tend to think isn't linked to what happened before the accident) it might explain Maura's odd behavior in the days before her disappearance as well as the trip up north to gather her thoughts. It might also explain why the family doesn't want to dwell on what happened prior to her disappearance either.
Am I out in left field here?
+Savryn Myst On the phone records, the call listed as Kathleen has a location of Hanover, MA. Was that Julie's residence or whereabouts at that time? I don't believe Kathleen having been on that call is only speculation, as she has gone on record as having been the one on the phone with Maura at that time, saying Maura didn't seem upset during the call and mentioned that they talked about some issues Kathleen and Tim were going through.
You are right. I just checked the phone logs on Renner's site. I just thought it was strange to find out after all this time that Julie had a connection to Billy that went beyond simply going to West Point with him. at minimum, I wouldn't be surprised if Julie's boyfriend ratted Billy out to Julie who in turn told her sister about his behavior if he was cheating on her.
I do believe I read somewhere, however, that Billy did cheat on Maura with one of Julie's friends though and that this was mentioned in the email printed out and found on the boxes in her dorm.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (*EDIT* I just reread your comment and I think you already knew what I mentioned.)
Signed the petition. Keep up the good work guys.
I disagree with the idea that a blinking cell phone light could not be mistaken for a burning cigarette. When someone inhales a cigarette, the burning end gets brighter. And the glow isn't stationary because the smoker is moving it to their mouth and away again. I think it's more likely that a blinking light would be mistaken for a cigarette than a solid, constant light. (Yes, I've spent way too much time thinking about that "glow in the car.")
+Jillian Kuzma I've often thought of trying to find one of those particular phones on Ebay or something just to see what the "blink" looks like. I can't find any videos online showing this.The faster it blinks, to me the less likely I find mistaking it for a cigarette, but If it slowly "pulses" though, I can see what you mean.
+Alex C Thanks for looking this up, by the way. I actually don't think any cell phone light would be mistaken for cigarette, but a blinking light seems more likely to me. I think the only way to figure out what the "glow" was would be for the Westmans to clarify what they saw.
Could she had been moving the cell phone around trying to get a signal I've done this 100 times.makes sense to me
I know a lot of people think that the damage on the front of Maura’s car could’ve been from an accident previous to her leaving UMASS that Monday and if that was the case, did the investigators even ask/interview/ people and places she stopped at or maybe stopped or that was on her route to NH and see if any of the businesses/stoplight cams/tollways/home cameras etc., actually got her on surveillance cameras driving her car and see if here was any damage to the front of her vehicle or not?
Good episode. The whole room packed up or not was confusing. I think the confusion was about "packed" as in took with her in the car. And "packed" as in her dorm room belongings were packed in boxes _left in her room_. I think the whole room packed up issue needs clarification . This is possibly the best evidence for her mind set/reason for leaving.
+samira dasa its not that complicated actually. The lead investigator has said her room was completely packed as she had everything neatly packed into boxes stacked on her bed with a note on the top of the boxes. So all that is left is to determine IS whether or not that description is a complete lie and the lead investigator into her disappearance has some serious credibility issues or whether or not someone or someone's family spokesperson has seriously tried to down-play those findings for whatever reason. I don't see the gray area with this
+Clint Harting glad to see you - enjoy your insight.
+Ltnt. Columbo It could be she was having issues with school (wasn't meshing, had few friends) and was going to leave when she returned. I don't believe she would run away. Shit wasn't THAT bad.
Folks. She’s gone, maybe someday they’ll find her but she died long time ago. 20 years ago.
Did anybody ever go and check out the coordinates sent to you in detail? I have been thinking for a while now, since there is no cell reception there, maybe she just didn't want to trouble the bus driver and went out to take a walk, trying to find cell phone service? Also, I had a samsung phone very similar to hers, which had a very similar crescent shaped light at the cover, unfortunatelly I don't know the exact model their designations are kinda hard to remember, but it was aproximately at that time, but what I can tell for sure is that mine was in fact glowing red while charging.
I know that battery of a phone would drain really fast trying to find cell phone service, so is it possible that she was charging her phone in the car? Did her car had a "lighter" to connect the charger? Was the charger in the car?
Those samsung phones had a pretty strong led light back then.
+Branko Petek I'm glad you bring these points up. Here is a link to the manual for the model of phone Maura had:
downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200708/20070823231517515_sprint_a620_vga1000_ug.pdf
One thing I missed in the manual the first time was this: "If a Travel Charger is used to charge the battery, a red light is displayed when the flip is closed. When the flip is open, an animated battery icon is displayed on the screen. When the
battery is completely charged, a green light is displayed continuously."
So according to that, if she had been using a travel charger, the phone may have displayed a continuous red light, and I was wrong in my previous statement that the phone never displays a constant red light. It only does so while charging. The Samsung Travel charger (despite the"Travel" in the name) still requires being plugged into a standard two-prong wall outlet. As seen here:
www.amazon.com/Samsung-MM-A700-Travel-Charger-TAD177JSEB/dp/B0009PL3RA
Another thing I hadn't seen before posting my findings on the phone, was a post on Renner's blog dated 11/1/15 (mauramurray.blogspot.com/2015/11/what-they-found-in-mauras-car.html) that details a list of items found in her car (the accuracy of the list is debated, but I believe Tim and Lance were given the same info). In that list is the Samsung Travel charger as well as "-AC Cell phone power adapters". Maybe these adapters could allow the two-prong Travel charger to have been plugged into the cigarette lighter (assuming '96 Saturns have them, I have not looked into that), and perhaps she did try to charge it. I've never seen anything more info pop up on these adapters. They could have been adapters similar to ones Europeans need to use over here, but that seems unlikely for her to have had on her. I'm curious if there any more details on these adapters available, and if they were found out in the open in her car or packed away.
+Alex C
I am from Europe and I don't understand the term "travel charger". I understand that you as always would get an original charger for your phone and back then practicly none of those were universal, all manufacturers had their own port. Of course, you could buy original or third party chargers to plug in your car's cigarette lighter port at almost any gas station here. Are those what they call "travel chargers"? If so, and in any other case, I have never ever had a mobile phone that would "understand" the difference between the wall socket and being plugged in a car's cigarette lighter in a way that it would or would not turn on or off a certain led light.
+Branko Petek There are two Samsung-branded chargers listed for that phone, according to the manual. One called the "Desktop charger", the other (the one I linked to) is called the "Travel charger" and does not plug directly into a car lighter (as shown in the link), both have (US) standard two-prong plugs. In the report of items the charger is specifically listed as "Samsung Travel charger" and not third-party, though I speculated in my comment on Episode 19 that she may have had a third-party adapter.
The manual makes no mention of the Desktop charger causing the red light, only the Travel charger, but like you, I assume any charging would cause the light. What power source the charger is plugged into (wall, car, etc.) would have no effect on the light. The only thing the adapters figure into, is whether or not she could have actually plugged the charger in in her car.
+Alex C
I have been comparing her car to other 1996 Saturns and sure enough, found what I think is the same model of the car. Comparing the photo that shows tiny bit of her car's interior to the 1996 Saturn interior I found on "Car Gurus" website I would agree that it is a match, with the interior containing a standard cigarette lighter socket on the lower left side of the center dashboard. Links for comparison:
s10.photobucket.com/user/MauraMurray/media/maura_0001.jpg.html
static.cargurus.com/images/site/2015/11/15/14/22/1996_saturn_s-series_4_dr_sl2_sedan-pic-6017037960488517449-640x480.jpeg
+Branko Petek So now the questions I'm left with are:
1) Did the adapter mentioned in the list convert a 2-prong plug to car lighter, or was it some other sort of adapter?
And
2) Was the adapter/charger out in the open, like she may have been trying to use it, or was it packed away?
Those 2 answers will get us a little closer to whether or not the cell phone could have been mistaken for a cigarette.
Interesting hearing Maura's emails to her girlfriends. I'm confused . I distinctly remember you guys making a point about the fact she 'hadn't even seen her HS girlfriends since getting to Umass. ' it was brought up like she had disconnected herself from her friends in the podcast. But here we are hearing she hadn't . ??
it doesnt matter who doesnt agree with signing this petition, what matters is mauras family wants it. imagine if it were your loves one, wouldn't u want all and any help possible? also, I dont understand how james could say that psychics may not be the real deal but exploring all possibilities is what he wants to do, yet hes so adimant about not bringing in the fbi. furthermore, since their "already involved" like hes saying, than why be so against this petition? especially since mauras family want it so bad.
If the car hit a tree the bumper which sticks out further than the damaged light would be dented in. The damage is above the bumper and not on the bumper. To me it looks like when you hit another car that is higher than yours and your bumper goes under other cars bumper and light hit another bumper. Or something similar. It definitely did not hit a tree and anyone with common sense or slight knowledge of fender benders would know this. Just my two cents. I started following this podcast/case a week ago and I'm hooked. I am 1 1/2 hours away and travel through that area all the time in summer and especially in winter due to snowmobiling in nh.
that is a good point. also would be consistent with that witnesses account if seeing 001 suv(a vehicle whose front end would have been higher then hers) parked "nose to nose" with mauras. could 001 have hit maura or vise versa?
Maybe the Haverhill SUV 001 hit her while he was drunk and put her into his cruiser drove away and killed her to cover it up and the Haverhill police are giving out just enough information to protect whoever was driving 001 SUV. .statement to witness A was 001 was out of commission when and why was that cruiser out of commission????
My thought also it's 001 that's the KEY and the POLICE are covering it up. 100%
It's 4 years late, but... First off, people CAN take the perspective of other genders without apologizing in this bs pc way. I honestly find Lance and the other guy to have fairly bad intuitions about what is "normal". It's the kind of thinking that gets jurys to convict innocent people based on "common sense". I defy anyone to intuit Fred's mind, or Adler's. Also, a college kid is just that if they're still wrecking cars, partying constantly, and need daddy to come help them out. She was a kid. Enough with this pc bs that keeps everyone walking on eggshells and hating themselves.
Thank you.
It's been said for years that Butch Atwood had offered to let Maura wait in his house but that she refused. That's something that you just happened to miss which is understandable given how many snippets of information are swirling around. In any case Butch was known to have changed his story a few times to the chagrin of investigators. He also came to refuse to be interviewed by investigators as John Healy reported on the old Maura Murray site run by a family member of Maura. Healy had gone all the way to Florida to talk with Butch but Butch refused to be interviewed.
The biggest piece of info provided by the woman interviewed is that she and her feminist friends hate being called girls and hated that Maura was referred to as a girl gone missing. Thanks for adding nothing.
+spikeitfool1 I have to agree with you. I'm a female, and it didn't once occur to me that it was offensive to call her a girl. She was a young lady, aka--girl, lol.
That’s real talk about Atwood that dude knows what’s up.
I haven't read through all the comments so forgive me if this has been said. I am a smoker and if I had gotten in to an accident with a friend driving or even myself...etc..I would absolutely have smoked a cigarette after. However I would absolutely not have smoked a cigarette in the passenger seat after the airbags have been deployed. I have been in an accident where the front car had its air bags deployed. I was the 3rd of 4th car in line in the pileup. The gentleman with his airbags deployed began having a reaction to the powder that comes with the airbag. This accident was around 2004 as well. So keep in mind the particles and possible reactions someone could have to this. I honestly don't know for sure if this has a high likelihood of happening, but I was always warned against smoking near a vehicle in that situation. You can have breathing problems, as well as (and here I was told but im not sure how true it is) that you can get powder burns from these particles, and there may be fluids leaking from the car, with the powder and/or chemicals you could ignite something if you choose to smoke at that time. So even if that is or isn't a for sure, the powder in the air definitely effects air/breathing quality. So I don't think its likely for someone to smoke in the passenger seat.
Loved this esipode! Thank you KF! :)
I think maura was pregnant and possibly heading to have an abortion (hence the missing $$$) and after the abortion she wanted lodgings to recuperate. I think when she stated " a death in the family" she meant the oncoming death of her child
I agree. She may have meant an abortion, which is a kind of sick sense of humor. But I think, like James Renner, that she had the baby & went to Canada. Most people know a death in the family is an acceptable reason for absence & that the professor or employer will not oppose it. This is probably what Maura thought when she said "death in the family". Professors understand this & accept it.
Xander Taylor exactly my point!!! I’m a student and I have thought about this excuse a lot i haven’t done it but it’s the 1. thing that comes to my mind when I want an excuse for uni bc that’s the only excuse they can’t oppose to!!!
Identity politics. I suppose only female police officers should be permitted to investigate her disappearance. And if a dreadful man has the evidence to solve her case, he should just keep it to himself and wait for a woman to truly solve it. I mean this episode is just bad and pointless.
You don't need to ruin a good podcast by lecturing your listeners like we are naughty children. If anything it is more likely to turn people off signing the petition.
+roobarbandcustard88 We weren't trying to lecture anyone, just making a point about it being what the Murray family is asking for.
I agree that it is what the family wants and it's worth trying, nothing wrong with saying that. You just turned it into a full on rant. Even suggesting that some of your listeners might not want closure for the family because it would ruin their entertainment. It just came across as condescending to your listeners and self righteous. The rest of the podcast was great though. Probably one of your best.
+roobarbandcustard88 I heard no lecturing.
+Missing Maura Murray there was a lecture, and it did get offensive. Enough that i'm commenting. You also *may* be missing the mark asking us to sign to support the family that your own podcast has made clear - isn't doing everything to help themselves.
Buuuut, that said.... I'm over it, because I get what you guys are trying to do here, and I get that you guys are learning this whole podcast process as you go along. Overall - it's working, and you are doing a great job getting better and better. So nice job. Because of that (and well - frankly, because I'd like to know what happened to Maura) I'm off now to sign your petition.... and in reflection, I am sure you guys will work on that part where you don't treat your listeners like they're as*holes :)
Same. I feel like those who got offended aren't really listening. We are passively involved, some folks actively, but this is not about us. There are people that get obsessed with these types of cases, and get in the way of what's best for the victim and victim's family.
What was so controversial about episode 18? What was talked about? Who was the guest?
Just a note on suicide:
A friend of mine committed suicide this fall, and people were very confused by it because she had apparently made peace with it, seemed happy the night of (she went out and spent time with friends that night), and prior to it she made plans with friends in the future. People were blindsided by it. Many people who commit suicide never tell anyone of their plans.
Especially those that are very serious about it. It's scary and sad how well some people are at hiding their internal struggle.
True
Renner is against the FBI petition. Wonder if the podcast guys and he are now on the outs...
+Savryn Myst I hope so. Renner has lost all credibility over the years. Nearly every accusation he has viciously lobbed at someone related to the case is soon followed up with a meager mea culpa: I was wrong. Well, an experienced, well-followed journalist wields too much power to regularly indulge in harmful speculation. Fred is pervy? Billy was basically Maura's Messiah, but her family shit on her from birth? Maura the possible Canadian was a sociopath with a fondness for both orgies and maniacal driving? The criminal record of the father of college friend Kate is relevant to this discussion in ANY way? (I'll stop there.) The idea of a police cover-up is WAY more defensible in my eyes than most of what Renner HAS deemed absolute. I love Tim and Lance, and their work is becoming more and more important and responsible with every episode. In other words, their investigatory trajectory is trending in a direction opposite to that drawn by Renner. I mean, the reader who followed up on Faith's cigarette report and researched the cell phone could remind Renner of the nature of correctly conducted investigations - the tedious busywork that may prove fruitless, the double- and triple-checking, the frustrating analyzing, etc. This episode offers a great example of all this: Tim and Lance are constantly seeking feedback, including - especially, I suspect - that which is less than flattering. They graciously own and concede to their own missteps, and this has continued to invite valuable sources' cooperation, bringing progress to the case. Renner, totally incredibly, will instead nastily snap at readers who post thoughts contrary to his. Accordingly, he seems to be encountering more and more roadblocks to his reporting, which, frankly and in my opinion alone, is turning it into weird nonsense. (Check out the post about this FBI petition; one commenter, who dared to disagree with Renner's characterization and reported level of the bureau's involvement in the investigation, earned the following from him: "Good God, [name]. They are involved." Way to show appreciation for one of the rare individuals who remains an engaged reader - and who offered a common, valid opinion, I thought.)
+Melissa L
I am completely unbiased when it comes to Renner, I'm not a fan nor do I dislike him, but in the interest of fairness, isn't that what investigators do with cold cases? Develop a theory based on some vague information, and then rule it out later, and move on to something new. This case is especially ripe with theories and strange evidence (and LACK of evidence), so does it surprise you that he's been wrong a dozen times after working on this mind boggling case for so long?
That being said, he does seem a little too emotionally invested in the case lately. I wonder if there's any new information in the book that he's anxious to get out? He also seemed a little hostile in his last blogpost, I will definitely give you that. If people don't understand what you're saying in the comments, there's no need to argue with them. You're asking to get trolled by some moron when you do shit like that.
+Cameron Brwdway Great feedback, Cameron, thank you. I totally agree with your opinion about Renner and his increasingly pronounced emotionality, another big - and sometimes tempting - no-no for reporters (I, too, am a longtime journalist, which may help explain why I probably sound like an obnoxious know-it-all!). I respected and appreciated his work for years, often posting comments and referring friends to it, but I just cannot support how inflammatory, even irrational, his blog and media appearances have become. You are absolutely right; investigation invites speculation. But as he presents himself as a *journalist* and his book as a news reference, his opinions must be tempered and evidence-based - of course at this point it would be unreasonable to expect him to refrain all together from editorializing - and ideally introduced not by himself but by credible sources, including other journalists and official records. His theories flip-flop wildly, his writing betrays an offensive hostility. He makes - to me, inexplicable declarations - to quote him verbatim, she was a sociopath; of course she was - that he identifies as absolute one day and totally off-base the next. Instead of cruelly attacking those who refuse to bend to his requirements, he ought to take their (unanimous?) defensiveness as a clear sign that his approach is bizarre and worse yet, ineffective. Sara Alfieri was, as he admitted, terrified by his visit to her home, and it is no wonder; either she exposes herself to his unpredictable, unreliable, irreperable theorizing, or risks being publicly targeted for another of his irrelevant dirt-digging missions. If Westman had mowed his yard with Renner on the scene instead of Lance and Tim, the man would now be immortalized online as having a lawn fetish and a hallucinating wife. He is a bully hurling abuse, not a trustworthy journalist laying bare facts aimed at furthering the case for the sake of his readership, which, based on the shrinking comments section, seems to dwindle with every new post. What a shame.
+Pasic TP EXACTLY.
Melissa L
I never thought too much about the seemingly out of the blue accusations, much less about how that might effect his future interviews AND sever ties with the connections he's already made, but you're right. Alienating your sources is generally a bad practice, LOL.
But anyway, he has definitely gotten a little too close to the case. And now that I think about it, all those accusations might be the result of garnering too much anxiety/getting too emotionally invested in it all. You just have to keep in mind that either way, he's trying to help, he believes he is, and he does want to find out what happened to Maura, that's for sure.
What's your take on Renner being right and the FBI being involved the whole time?
Really enjoyed this episode and thought the Seventeen article was very interesting. I didn't realize Butch Atwood had said he thought she had been drinking, I always heard he said she was "shaken up." Didn't Tim Westman say that at some point, although supposedly he never went outside? Also the mention of the open Skyy Blue can in the front seat that was supposedly bought with the red wine? I've heard of the diet coke bottle with the wine, but didn't hear that she had an open wine cooler too. Didn't it come out at some point that a grocery store cashier thought she had seen Maura that day in NH buying blue wine coolers with two other girls? Not sure if that's been discussed/debunked before...
I've been following for months, and bravo on having a female perspective! Definitely needed.
Listening to this episode, I might have forgotten this but do we have all of the records of tips and reports from UMass? Thinking, if someone got her away message and called to say they saw her at the party and something went down or anything like that, was it reported? We all know how colleges sweep certain things under the rug, hoping all leads were followed. Hm.
Its refreshing to hear a female voice on the podcast! :)
why?
+Will Donnell because it's predominantly males and it's a nice change to hear a woman's voice and perspective.
+Erica Bradshaw still doesn't make sense to me. So if a black guy went missing... should only black guys be looking for him? or should we only hear a black guys perspective. I'm not against having her on here or anything. I just dont see how it is "refreshing". Its not like she added anything new or different.
+Will Donnell I was merely stating it was nice to hear a female voice because it's usually just men making commentary or the hosts. I literally just liked hearing a new voice on the show. You're reading into it more than you should.
+Erica Bradshaw its usually "just men making commentary" or "just men as hosts" because it IS men who are the hosts. I don't know why womenvhave to bring sexism into everything in their life.
How many pedestrians were hit on campus while Maura was enrolled, compared to before and after? Man, she crashed a whole bunch of cars during that short span of time.
The actual discussion of her research doesn't start until at least 25 minutes in. If you can deal with this nerdy, self centered, narcissistic female's annoying voice it is a halfway decent interview.
+Emery Paulson Indeed, I was getting impatient. All three of them were yammering about nothing before finally getting to the point.
That's a lot to assume based on someone's voice dude.
@@LavenderLullabies ohh, it's not just based on the voice. It's smug condescending identitarian content.
I don't think she planned this with someone to run away. Wouldn't you wait until much later like 11:00 pm or midnight when it's darker and no traffic? Her father has nothing to do with her disappearance or knows where she is. You would not be asking psychics years later. A psychic is a guilty person's worst nightmare if they truly have any intuitive talents. She also probably didn't die in the woods. Her remains/clothing would have been found by now. I believe someone from there picked her up and did her in. Too bad Butch Atwood didn't stay with her until help arrived.
Hi guys, I just caught up through episode 22 (except for missing episode 18...why did you take it down?).
I'm more of a passive listener since I don't really comment but episode 21 is my favorite because KF covered/called you guys on so many things I had issues with while listening. I think a female perspective is very valuable to give insight on this case and I think that whatever KF is doing behind the scenes is great.
I've been listening because I was about the same age as Maura when she went missing and I feel like I can empathize with her. I hope the family gets some sort of closure soon. I've also signed the FBI petition.
+JennyLynn1212 For some reason this question is not being answered, I asked too, no reaction. I'd like to know that too...
+Noelle P Thanks. I did look and couldn't find anyone mention it. Must be me.
Ive done some Research there Is a guy that uploaded a strange video on the anniversary of her disappearance that Led Me too find out that the guy Is a Alden Olson! disturbingly when you go to his facebook he lists his college as the same as The girl that went missing!!!
Is there an audio interview of Billy Rausch?
Thanks guys! Is there going to be another podcast?
It's also just as likely Maura hadn't finished UNpacking- since her move TO Umass
+Cate Ellington When did she transfer? THAT semester? Even if true, girls do not leave packed boxes longer than a few days.
+Lydia Harmon um. I'm a girl. We bought our last house 3 years ago. I still have clothes boxes "unpacked" in my closet. I kid u not. People are all different. And my understanding was she had just recently gotten to Umass.
+Lydia Harmon Wrong. I had a girlfriend who still had much of her stuff in moving boxes many months after moving into a new apartment.
We're not talking about a couple of boxes not being unpacked. Everything was taken off her walls, cleaned out of the drawers, and everything was not only boxed up but stacked on her bed with a note on top about her boyfriend cheating. That's deliberate "I'm out of here" behavior.
+Bigwave2003 where did you get that info? Only info I've ever heard on that was that she took a few things. Just curious
So she went from being excited about a comedian to packing up her dorm and leaving for NH. Yes, anything can happen in a short amount of time, but packing up your room at college in FEBRUARY is weird to me if she wasn't planning on leaving school. I am not saying she ran away from her life. But that's pretty big now after hearing her in an email with HIGH SCHOOL friends. Not college friends. HS. Was she uncomfortable in college in general? I had a friend in college who had a hard time. We're best friends currently and I still have no real idea why she neatly flunked out and eventually unenrolled completely and started working full time. She has always had significant family problems and was raised by her cousin most of her life. But she, to date, sees her family pretty regularly despite the stresses, which she laughs about.
+Ltnt. Columbo Really? Because all kinds of comments discuss all kinds f scenarios. How is that one different? We have no idea if she liked college or not? I see no rant in that passage. Chill please :)
I personally interpret all of her behavior that we’ve been told about as, she didn’t like college. Not West Point, not umass, none of them. College is not for everyone and some people come to realize the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for their particular situation. That’s what Maura’s actions looked like to me. Then especially after learning about Billy’s cheating, as one of her reasons for choosing umass when she left West Point was to be near Billy, I think she was like F this I’m outta here. So I think your instincts in this comment are right on.
No reputable writer would put something into an article if you can’t verify it period, if she took it credible she would have wrote down the source in her notes 📝 especially if writing for Seventeen (legal wouldn’t allow it)
I wonder what would constitute a reason for her to be allowed to take time off and still get paid for her job & not get in trouble for missing a few days of school. Perhaps the only way she could take off and not get in trouble was to make up the excuse of a death in the family.
She knows that. She's simply saying what would constitute a good reason to leave for a week? A death (or emergency) in the family would be a good excuse (although a lie) to take a week off. With that being said, although I don't believe it one bit, we have to consider the thought that if Maura genuinely did say "there's a death in the family," she perhaps was talking about herself and committed suicide. I don't believe that, but we just have to keep that in mind.
Changing my mind yet again...
You get criticism because you're in dire need of it. We all do things that we look back on years later and cringe at, but it's not usually at this scale. Everybody who is making suggestions or providing criticism wants this podcast, and eventually the documentary, to be better than it has been so far- we don't want this to be cringeworthy for ANYONE. It's frustrating to see you consistently writing your listeners off as trolls and ignoring what they say just because they aren't stroking your ego. (And making condescending lectures at us like we're selfish little children? Not helping your ratings.)
the biggest problem is they talk too much and too much banter.....18minutes in...and still little evidence
@@Augfordpdoggie Yep and they've aligned themselves with some of the biggest crackpots related to this case
Hi Guys,
Aren't you all forgetting that the police don't consider someone a missing person until they have been gone for 48 hours? I kept thinking that while listening to the podcast. Now I'm not saying that the police handled everything correctly, but this whole idea that the case was cold after 36 hours....yes, but at that point the police probably weren't treating it as a missing person investigation yet. Maybe that is why more wasn't done immediately. Most instances where an adult goes missing resolve themselves before the 48 hour window is over. In this case knowing what we know, hindsight it 20/20.
Unless there is reasonable cause to be concerned like a person who disappeared from an accident and is possibly Injured.
I think sending people to sign an FBI petition is sending them on a wild goose chase. They've already been involved in the case tangentially. They probably know much more than we do & if they thought that Maura was really an endangered missing person, they'd have been involved already. I believe people at the NHSP have told them that Maura left to start a new life & there is no need for the FBI to get involved. That's why they're leaving it alone. My opinion.
Anybody know of anybody named Saffo and Dutile?
I still get a bad feeling about the bus driver,I feel he did something to Maura,she left the scene to fast for it to be anyone else and the dogs tracked right to his house.as a woman I feel he is hiding something.is it true the bus driver has died ?
Yes he was in bad health and passed away.
+GreenButterfly Yeah most killers/abductors have their wife call the police and report an accident from which their victim was abducted. C'mon.
Signed and shared.
holy christ 20 minutes in and were still apologizing for a misuse in words
Some people think being critical about everything makes them more intelligent...Is this why people are unnecessarily critical in comments section...?
Also, I feel some of the naysayers are jealous of the ambition of these podcasters...
True
Jesus with the dislikes. Anyway, good to see you guys are back.
Interesting episode guys. I think you need to try and accept that some people haven't embraced your work and will look to be critical. There's little sense letting it concern you.
I can not recall exactly what was said regarding the birth control found in her car but I do remember thinking you were not considering the secondary purpose of such medication.
I know you must get a lot of feedback but I sent you a rather long email with some questions and suggestions but did not receive a reply.
+blueillyria blue Thanks a lot. We do get a lot of emails and it's difficult to respond to them all. It's just two of us responding and we both have jobs too. Apologies for not responding.
There was a diet cherry 🍒 coke can in the cup holder if I remember right it was silver and red, and light against it would appear to reflect red?
Thank you for bringing a female on!
My god are you that in love with your own gender? 🤦♂️
Really? People actually emailed them to complain that they referred to her as a 21 year old girl? Good god FDS is really spreading.
In regards to the "man smoking a cigarette or the red glow" the witness reported as seeing. First of all, in most photos of Maura, she wore her hair pulled back which could be misinterpreted, at a distance, as a "man"? Second, the red glow, if seen from a certain angle, could it possibly have been a taillight, while the other could have been obstructed from view by a car or trees, etc, all depends on the angle one is viewing it from a distance? Just brainstorming, thanks.
Yet another theory, as I'm not familiar with a taser or incapacitating tools, would any of those give off a red glow or light if utilized? Still pondering.
+Laura Denham According to Atwood's account, the girl driving the car had "shoulder-length brown hair", which would suggest the driver had her hair down.
As far as the taillight, the car was facing the opposite direction when it was in the roadway. Though it could have been a reflection. Another commenter mentioned a red light that those particular Saturn's had on the dashboard, but again it was facing the opposite direction, but may have been reflecting off something.
To me, one curious aspect of that is that it's commonly accepted that the witnesses who called 911, FW, may have interpreted this light as a cigarette, but that her husband, TW, was never really under the impression that it was "a man smoking a cigarette" and that he thought it was a cellphone or charger. I recent;y found this blog post which seems to conflict with the way I (and quite a few others) interpreted this:
notwithoutperil.com/2014/06/08/my-visit-to-the-crash-site/
"I asked Mr. Westman about the red dot - what did he believe that it was? He stated that, originally, he and Mrs. Westman believed that it was a cigarette. Later, “a family member” of Maura’s “told” him that it was not a cigarette and that, instead, it was a cellphone charger."
This has been brought up a few times recently, but I think it might be worth noting.
+Alex C Thank you for your response, I did read the link you inserted. So the car's headlights would have been facing the witness's direction. I guess what I'm referring to, if that was the direction, is it possible a vehicle could have been coming from the opposite direction the car was facing, therefore the taillights would have been facing the witness's view, and only one taillight could have been observed, the other being obstructed by either her car (vehicle drove around and was slightly behind her car), tree, etc?
Also, if it were a cellphone charger, we know those are connected in cigarette lighters, therefore, below the dashboard, also facing the opposite direction?
+Laura Denham Correct, the vehicle was facing Westbound, more toward (but not directly at) the witnesses' house.
On the accident report diagram done by the responding officer (shown here):
31.media.tumblr.com/3ba917a37af65fab8517e4f0f530f13b/tumblr_inline_my5fbr28BL1s90qds.png
The vehicle is labelled #1 and the pointed end shows the direction it was facing. #70 on the diagram is the house of the witnesses mentioned.
Link to FBI petition doesn't work...
So who was in the SUV 001?
I think the most likely situation is she hit her car was drunk driving so she left the scene of the crime and froze to death because there's like nothing out there. She ran past the Homes and at that point there is nothing on the road. She didn't know where to go it was freezing maybe she stopped to sleep and because it was 12° out she froze to death. as to why they didn't find her body who knows it snowed for 12 years since then.
They would've found her in the woods by now... someone would've, by accident.
The accident scene was in a neighborhood a short distance from a gas station/country store.
I signed the petition
She sounds like Anna Kendrick.
Dane Cook put on a great show? Unsubscribed, unfollowed, downvoted, bad review on Yelp.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 😂😂😂
Look early cancel culture. It's like archeology on RUclips
@@drdaverob I read that as being a pretty hilarious joke comment, not an actual declaration to never listen to the podcast again....
@@RustCole01 I know it's a joke. I think it's also satirizing cancel culture... This is what people actually do. It's a good example of poe's law. Poe's law is very interesting.
The "woman" vs "girl" thing makes me tired. Call me a woman, a girl, a broad, a bitch--whatever--I don't care. I know what I am and someone's label doesn't impact or damage my sense of self. To me, using the term "girl" as it is commonly used, is the same as referring to a bunch of men as "guys". Just a common short-cut as someone said. Toughen up, ladies. Be what you profess to be. (I do notice that KF herself uses the term "girls" at one point when referring to Maura's group of friends who received her last email--what? only a week before she went missing? when Maura herself was a "woman"?)
Anyway, off the soapbox----- Lance & Tim, you have a treasure in KF. She appears to be energetic, sharp and fastidious--everything that's needed when dealing with a case like this. She thinks logically, seems quick to notice errors and contradictions, and in short, is just the type of mind to successfully keep a case such as this on the right track. I look forward to more of her. That Clint Hartin is good too, btw.
Basically, this is just to say thanks for actually doing what I can only give lip service to. Keep up the truly good work.
Not sure why people are so uptight.
She sounds like Maggie
Stop furiing around😮
Embarrassment sweat. 😥
I think it’s great that he admitted not understanding women. I don’t care if men call us girls btw, that’s not a real issue. The issue is that they OBVIOUSLY did not understand Maura’s female behavior and yet they were picking apart her very normal female behaviors as not normal. This is why people were begging them to get a female on.
dd