Rey and Reylo: Psychology of the Characterization
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- Опубликовано: 16 июл 2024
- In today's episode we discuss the psychology of Rey's characterization in the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. We look at object relations theory and attachment theory to understand how Rey's history of abandonment has led to maladaptive coping, which in turn has impacted her ideas about self and her key relationships, especially with Ben Solo.
CONTENT:
Basic psych concepts: the mind and its unconscious defenses 01:34
Object relations theory in a nutshell 03:30
Attachment theory in a nutshell: Mary Ainsworth 07:35
Recap: formulation of Rey’s core conflict 09:47
How Rey's trauma has impacted her story arc 10:52
Rey's key relationships: 15:07
BB8, Finn, Han 15:25
Learned helplessness and regression: an in depth analysis of why Rey stayed on Jakku 19:29
Rey and Luke: transference, displacement, acting out 24:56
Reylo: 25:29
Reylo and splitting 30:46
Reylo and reaction formation part1 35:15
Reylo Force Bond and Reylo hand sex 37:25
Idealization, splitting, and acting out: why Rey reaches for the lightsaber 40:00
The ST as the story of Rey’s sexual awakening 42:00
Reylo and reaction formation part2 45:25
Rey Nobody 47:37
Integration and acceptance: how Rey can resolve her conflict 53:00
Audience reception of Rey 56:55
CREDITS:
Speakers: Lee, Denise
Editing: Lee
FEATURED ARTIST:
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Our video features Ksenia's gorgeous Reylo fanart. Please visit her Tumblr blog to see more of her beautiful work.
IMAGE CREDITS:
Lee's awful memes: free to use. Memes are taken from Google search; if your meme is featured and you would like to be credited please contact us!
Lost - photo by Thư Anh on Unsplash unsplash.com/photos/7Q96WZwlBDc
Splitting - www.verywellmind.com/what-is-...
Skittles whisper - www.buzzfeed.com/erinchack/ri...
BB8 Poe - hellogiggles.com/reviews-cove...
Displacement -- sites.google.com/site/hookapp...
MUSIC:
Intro:
Loyalty Freak Music - Extra Metal
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Outro:
Stellardrone - Fermi Paradox
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Развлечения
As a neuroscience/psych geek, I love what they have done with this trilogy so far. Also, as an abuse/neglect survivor with major abandonment issues who has been untangling my own layers of maladaptive behaviors in a quest for understanding and healthy functioning, I really appreciate your delving into an understanding of these topics. It's very complex, so naturally so is Rey and Bens relationship which we could talk about all day. I loved, understood (and saw myself in) Rey from the beginning, but I can see how a viewer without any knowledge of this could have it fly right over their head. I never saw her as too perfect, and I LOVE the concept of Ben being the first to really see and appreciate her even having seen the worst. Which is why (like @misty said) I think it would be brilliant for her to see that she had abandoned him in a way she is terrified of being abandoned as well. She could stop splitting and he could stop suppressing and......oh man I'm excited for IX! Great job as always!
Yes, there are deep layers within the characterization.
In TFA novelization Rey feels “inexorably drawn” to him when he takes off his mask.
Jocelyn Stark Who doesn’t? Lol 😜
Nudge nudge wink wink!
Yes!!! Episode IX will have an ending similar to Dances With Wolves. Two outsiders will be unified together, shun their past, and head out for an uncertain life together out on the new frontier of the galaxy.
Stay strong Reylo shippers.
I wonder if Rey will ever realize that abandoning Kylo like that is more or less the same as what her parents did to her. I feel that it would be an evolutionary revelation that will help remove her from this growth stint that she’s stuck in.
I'd love that.
I hope so!! It was huge.
I've been saying the same thing. She was conditioned in a way to react to a relationship the same way her parents daughter her she should be treated, she was just as wrong as Kylo in that proposal scene. I certainly hope we see her acknowledge that in IX 💓
LOL no. Rey has no obligation to be there for Klyo. He's not her family, nor is he a friend. He's an enemy. You can't "abandon" an enemy.
Just like Kylo, Rey also wears a mask. Her joy, sunshine, and bubbliness.
To me her exterior has always run a bit artificial. A way of covering up all the hurt inside. Hiding it even from herself.
That laughing Rey in the Falcon shooting down tie fighters always bothered me in TLJ. I couldn’t help but think how can she be happy after leaving Kylo like that and essentially having her heart broken? I always thought it made her look callous, but your explanation makes total sense. I can now see that scene entirely differently, that it was just Rey’s coping mechanism for things not working out with Kylo. Thanks for giving me a different perspective on that. I think Rian expected the audience to pick up a lot of things and many people didn’t. That may be a source of so much of the hate directed at the movie. People just didn’t get a lot of things.
“Of course the moment is spoiled by uncle Luke. Luke strikes again.”
When you said that, it occurred to me that the incident where Luke ‘tried to kill’ Ben might not be the only reason Kyle is so angry with Luke at the end of TLJ.
"God dammit dude, we were finally getting somewhere and you just HAD to show up!"
👀🔓🤭 I never thought of that!!!
The last 24 hours have been perfect. I've gotten new videos from you guys, Girl With Sabers, and AT-AT Chat. It's the Reylo trifecta!!!!!!
You guys really make TFA and TLJ very interesting. I like that you took the time to talk about the audience reaction in a compassionate and clear way and some of the failings of the production to externalise Rey's journey. Another great episode!
Speaking of relationships: Everytime I see the propsal scene in TLJ and Ben is looking at her with his "hungry, needy eyes",
he wants to go to her and make out but she is like "No I can't and oh wait the Resistance fleet is still there".
So it makes sense that she is afraid to dive deeper into a relationship. No matter which kind.
Okay. you guys seriously need to publish these in book form. They're THAT good. I also wanted to talk about a couple of things this video made me pick up.
1] Seeing that image of Rey, attacking Luke with her staff reminded me of the famous scene in "A New Hope", when he was attacked by the Tusken Raiders. I can't help but wonder if that was intentional. I can even picture Luke, thinking, "Aw, hell. Not this again."
2] Rey's concealing of her emotions by blowing things up after the Praetorian fight and Kylo's proposal reminds me of when someone goes partying, after a breakup. A big part of their lives has ended, which leaves them devastated, but they put on a brave face and go out drinking and/or dancing flirtatiously with random people. It looks to all around them like they're happy, but they're not.
The Tusken Raiders callback is interesting. And sure, she's putting a brave face.
Dude! #2 has weighed on me from the start. Her line of "I like this" takes on even more meaning after this analysis.
@@raeavilez9936 Wow. Thanks. And just curious--have you been in a situation like that?
@@daniellemusella1594 Not me personally, but I see my students act out in a variety of ways including depression, anxiety, insecurities, anger, and elation.
@@raeavilez9936 Students? What do you teach?
I love all you ladies so much, but Denise and Lee are the dynamic duo! Thanks for the vid very organized and interesting (and reylotastic)!
Welcome!
I have always thought that it didn't make sense for her to refuse a job with Han and Chewie, but this really explained it to me. Another great podcast girls!
People fail to see that Rey isn’t a very good fighter at all. She always learns on the job, and is a quick learner because the force is helping her lol. She struggled fighting Ben in the forest, and only “won” because the force split them apart. The throne scene she’s slashing at air at one point and only takes on a few guards, almost failing many times. The force splits them again because they aren’t equal yet and unwilling to come together. She struggles physically and mentally. I think the force is awakening her for the sole purpose of bringing back Ben. That’s her purpose and she doesn’t know it yet. I think Leia caught onto that at the very end after talking with Luke and witnessing Rey move the rocks. The way she comforts Rey, seeing her father’s saber is broken yet repairable... She knows she’s his last hope, and that Ben is the galaxy’s last hope. Moms always know! Lol! I think Leia will play a big part in helping to repair Ben and Rey’s relationship.
Happy Valentine’s Day!!! ❤️
I'm always baffled by the people who say Rey is super skilled for no reason, especially when it comes to her fighting. She's both very skilled in certain areas for very good reason, or she's not half as skilled as everyone thinks in others. She's quick, she's scrappy like a street fighter (which is a whole different kind of skill from one that is formally trained for years) and she learns well on the fly. I think too many people have never picked up a sword, or played outside with sticks even, because they can't see that she does not look like she's holding her own very well in TFA against Kylo for most of the fight. He's going very easy on her, and you can see she's mimicking his movements when she's not stumbling and swinging wildly. It's a light saber lesson more than an actual fight. In addition to her ability to learn quickly she also seems to have a healthy dose of luck too. After watching the throne room scene in TLJ a couple times, Minerva Mcgonagall saying "Ten points to Gryffindor. For sheer dumb luck!" popped into my head. Her performance is part skill, part dumb luck, and partly an ability to improvise and take advantage of lucky moments.
winterinbloom - Exactly!!!
Word!! I do not get the mary sue thing. What do people see when they watch the movies exactly? She basically downloaded all of Ben's moves and applied it during her fights.
Sorry but i'm afraid Moms dont always know, cause you was dead wrong on this one.
Yeah thats what I thought. She's a survivor, for some people it's just natural.
Rey has come a long way though since The Force Awakens. If she was afraid of being abandoned, she needn't have been. Ben wanted her to join him and even though deep down she wanted to, she was confident enough in herself by this stage that she felt that she could teach him a lesson by 'closing the door'. If she goes dark, for a while, in IX, it's difficult to know if Ben would accept her. He loves her the way she is, light with dark, him being dark with light. Let's face it, those two were made for each other in true fairy tale fashion.
I love how in your discussion of attachment and coping mechanisms you could swap out Rey for Anakin or especially Han without having to change anything but the examples.
I also want to say I think this series has been your best work, and stands out among even your other very strong discussions. Well done!
True. We could maybe look into the PT and OT characters using the same type of analysis. Thank you! The work is 95% Lee's.
I’m only 6 minutes in and I wanted to comment on what a delight this is. It brings be back to my old grad school days learning about Object Relations from one of my Clinical Psychology professors. It’s a treat to listen to you apply these theoretical orientations and analyses onto Ben and Rey.
I'm really glad to hear that! I was worried that it would be too dense in the beginning and that it would turn some people off from watching, so I actually ended up removing a bit about Harlow's studies with baby monkeys and what it reveals about attachment/affection and its importance for healthy development. In hindsight maybe I should have left it in! Thanks again. ^^
Lee Green Oooh that would have been so good. Now that I think about those studies, I can see the parallel between those cold, cage mama monkey surrogates and how they are reminiscent of droids, which Ben was raised by. There’s always an opportunity to add Harlow’s research into another podcast. Have you ever heard of Emotionally Focused Therapy? If Rey and Ben were a real couple, I’d totally recommend EFT to them for couples therapy.
Best Valentine's Day present ever! Thank you!!! 💖💖💖
Another insightful video, ladies! I love how you pick them apart and explain things. Great job!
Thanks!
Awesome! Just listening to your last video and suddenly there is a new one! You guys are doing a perfect job and I enjoy your podcasts very much. Thank you for keeping me hyped ^^
Two videos in one week??? There is a God. :)
Bringing up the tension between Rey and the Resistance, I hope Episode 9 doesn't pull a Mockingjay where Finn or whoever commits some kind of atrocity for the cause. Maybe it would make sense if it was Poe, but don't have it be Finn just to turn the audience against him to "resolve" a love triangle between Rey, Finn and Ben. I don't want Finn to get the Gale treatment is all that I'm saying.
No, Finn is one of the protagonists and they wouldn't do that to him. And there isn't really a love triangle now that he has Rose.
Great analysis! I enjoy all your videos and was happy to see a new one. I want then to give us the name or trailer so BAD!!!
I mean Rey's power makes sense to me because there are no other Jedis left, and the force wants balance in its users, and while the dark side had snoke and kylo and these super powerful sith lords, there were no more light side users, and so the force puts it all on one person.
An hour long episode from my favourite girls to listen to about Reylo, best day ever!
Happy belated Valentines.
As somebody who didn't see any marketing for tfa. I didn't think Rey's parents were that important I just thought for *her* she expected them to be important and that was the story. So her finding out they were no one just made the story even better for me. She didn't get what she wanted. The story isn't easy on her on an emotional level.
Sweet! Can't wait to give this a listen later tonight! :)
I feel like your ''slideshows'' are under-appreciated. I find myself often laughing out loud at how well timed the memes are. :'D
This was Lee's edit and she's indeed phenomenal with humor and good timing.
On the issue of why does she want to be a Jedi so much, I feel like, continuing your thoughts from earlier in the conversation, it has a lot to do with her belief that it's important to be important. She's grown up hearing of Jedi as legends (Luke especially), highly respected and admired by others, so it's only natural for her to develop a desire to become one of them when presented with the opportunity. She may think that being a Jedi would afford her substantial immunity against being rejected for her flaws.
Add to that the fact that it gives her a cause to channel this "something inside me" into, making it far less intimidating and giving it an actual meaning and purpose, and it suddenly becomes a very attractive prospect. It offers her the opportunity to be someone of worth, valuable to both society and, more importantly, herself. If she can become a Jedi she can prove to herself that she's worth coming back for.
Just my two cents, built on top of both of your amazing observations. I have to say, you two, and the others, have given me an invaluable amount of insight into this story and its characters since I found you. I owe you a lot :)
This was a wonderful podcast guys. One of your best actually, Star Wars Connection ones included. This whole psychoanalytical series has been an absolute joy to listen to (being a shameless psych nerd myself, although not as well read I'll admit). I've been waiting for months for you to release this one so I could binge watch all three of them at once lol, and it was totally worth it. I would *love* to see more of this in the future.
It makes sense that she wants to be a jedi. what doesn't really make sense storywise is that she didn't feel any yearning for something great before. Glad you liked it, and we'll think about more podcasts like that.
Lords of the Sith Podcast - Yeah I get that. I agree it would have been great to see her with ambitions, but I think it still makes sense in terms of her subconscious fear that she might not be worth coming back for. I think she's trying so hard to deny that fear that she's focused all her energy into surviving and keeping up the hope and belief that they *are* coming back, and not letting herself think any deeper than that, because it scares her too much. And all that leaves no room for dreams of bigger things. Her self esteem is likely very low/shaky underneath all this, and that could very likely be what's stopping her from considering anything beyond the desert.
I'm so glad you're down for doing more like this, I'm really looking forward to it :)
Yay you guys made my day💕 Thanks for putting this out; now all we need is a EP IX trailer, when do you guys think they’ll release it?
Maybe at Celebration?
I felt exactly the same way about Rey Kenobi at first, but I'm 100% okay with Rey Nobody now. It can be just as poetic as Rey Kenobi
😊 Another insightful analysis!
Thanks!
You're so very welcome. 🌿
At least she could have given him a high five LOL!
Right?
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I was very confused when she just up and ran away. Her hitting Luke was another example of a WTF moment. Listening to this podcast I now get the logic but if you have to listen to an hour long podcast (fabulous as usual BTW) after seeing a movie three times to understand a character's motivations then something's not quite right.
Thanks again guys! ❤️
What an amazing episode! You've given me so much to consider.... thanks, ladies! 💖
Awesome!
I’ve been waiting for this!!!! 🙏🏽
Same, I've been holding off watching Kylo and Finn's episodes so I could binge watch all three of them in a row lol. Absolutely worth it. 👌
Heh, it's like you explain all the important steps of pedagogy and psychology of the basic books; well-done!
So nice, did you study psychology? You did great!
@@skydrathik3329 Lee did. I'm not sure exactly how much, though.
@Lords of the Sith Podcast hey guys I really have been enjoying these psychology vids and how you all dig more deep into these characters psyche particularly with these three in Kylo/Ben, Rey, and Finn which all have this is in common with being abandon. Although with Finn to use his quote from TFA "I was taken from a family ill never know"and to parse it with Hux's quote" my men have been programmed since birth" . The way I interpret both of those quotes as Finn having no memory of his family so his feelings of neglect and abandonment just doesn't run as deep as it does with Ben's or Rey's. With Rey being labeled as a Mary Sue is just so baffling to me because despite some of the Padme similarities, Rey has some deep personal issues with the main one being denial. Padme knew and grew up with her family in a functional structure. Rey appears to have memories of her parents even though she was around 4-5 when they left her on Jakku with that dreadful Unkar Platt. When Rey was conversing with BB-8 about not wanting to leave the planet telling the droid "I know all about waiting. For my family they'll be back. One day" and then the very next scene when Rey is selling her items to Unkar he made her a tempting offer to sell him the droid instead and Rey does consider it at first but then with a ponderous thought she softly says "actually the droid isn't for sale". With those two scenes alone they perfectly coincide with the throne room scene when Ben was trying to get Rey to finally stop lying to herself when he calmly says to her "do you want to know the truth about your parents, or have you always known, you just hidden it away, you know the truth, say it. They sold you off for drinking money" and that's why I strongly believe he wasn't lying to her because with the force bond that they share with each other they can't hide anything even they're most inner fears and truths in which both movies have revealed to us these two characters biggest ones. Just to use JJ Abaram's commentary from the scene in TFA about Rey telling Finn she has to get to Jakku "because she feels like the only belonging she’s ever going to have is her family and if she leaves she’ll never get a chance to see them. So there was a very powerful idea that what she desperately wanted was belonging, which she’ll get, but just not how she expects.” Maz tells Rey as you mentioned in the vid the belonging you seek is not behind her it is ahead. I like the quote from the novel when Ben meets Rey for the first time after freezing her she says you'll kill me without knowing anything about me is just grand to me. The girl is yearning for a family or the idea of belonging to something or someone and it is heartbreaking. So could it be that Finn and the Resistance is her family and that is enough or is it being with the only person that can relate to her and fully understand where she is coming from. I guess episode 9 will finally bring us some closure .
So Lee you have a degree in psychology?
Wonderful Psychology analysis of Rey. I really enjoyed this Podcast. Both Kylo and Rey and "damaged goods" and beautifully connected in a way that will make them whole. I hope JJ brings this 42 year in the making Mythological Fairy Tale to a "Pocahontas" /"Beauty and the Beast" and "Pride and Prejudice" romantic ending for Rey and Ben and for the non-Reylo Fanbase JJ can include lots of; lightsaber fights, Force Ghost Luke & Anakin, Prequel tie-ins, bad guy backstories, space battles, super Kylo evil guy replacement from the unknown regions etc....At this point, it's Go Big or Go Home and that means Reylo because everything else has been done.
So much complexity, for ep IX to simply completely regress Rey an angry child, who praises the "sir" who blocks his sexual awakening and still turns his power into something bad inherited from a psychopath. Murdered an incredible character... Revolting...
Maybe Rey thinks that if she leaves Jakku to find her parents, her parents could show up on Jakku and not find her there because Rey was off looking for them so both parties would miss the other and then the parents would never return.
Everything you're explaining makes a lot of sense, but I'm curious is that something writers do consciously, really look at what is the story of the person and what would make sense for their behaviour patterns to be like based on psychology? Or is it more likely most of them just read/watch plenty of stories, draw from personal experience etc and it just happens from imitating what they have seen or heard through other stories? I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, just wondering if it would be common for filmmakers to consult with psychologists for example to help build strong characters? Thank you for amazing content!! PS, that clip of Rey seeing Kylo without a mask for the first time is just so so well done, both Adam and Daisy are perfect.
There are writers who consult with psychologists, but I believe most of them write intuitively, and if they get to an accurate psychological portrayal, it's due to observation/experience/sensibility/intuition.
That makes sense. I think what you do here is just so unique, the interdisciplinary approach to analysing these films is so fascinating. Can't tell you enough how much I love this content.
I have found writers to be extremely emphatic. I think this also helps portray characters logically in their stories.
What you girls said about externalize action was an eye opening. I always had a hard time with Rey knowing hell a lot for someone who lived in the dessert alone all her life, the extra material did cover that, explained why she knew who to pilot the falcon and stuff, but I'm not into background stories to understand character, for example, Kylo Ren or Finn didn't need it.
I love the force bond as a way to connect Kylo and Rey and to make them grow closer without Rey trying to kil him (though she tried lol). But using the force bond as a way to skip all the jedi training everyone but Rey had to endure is a bit jarring. I understand why some folks have a problem with that, though at this point people should let it go and just accept it.
I think what the new Lara Croft movie did with their female lead was a good call. They showed us how could she do all these incredible physical sequences, even if they hadn't to (the "externalize action" you girls mentioned). We all knew Lara Croft needed to kick ass and be smart but they still took the time for flashback sequences that show how was that since childhood Lara was learning this stuff. that's a good origin story move. I'm not saying JJ should had done the same with Rey's origin story (because that's what tfa is for me) but a little more show and a little less tell would have help.
Finn was a stormtrooper so he knowing how to fight was an obvious call, Kylo Ren was part of the first orden so he obviously had to be strong. The context of the movies made it easy for people to understand these characters from the get go, but Rey's needed a little more, because Rey practicing how to fly with a simulator it's not something anyone is going to think inmediately while watching the movies.
Anyway, great episode as usual love the podcast
Good points!
Amazing, as usual. Keep it up girls, your videos are the best!
Thanks!
Thanks for the good work, it makes writing these characters more thought out, less instinctive. I always have trouble with writing Rey, but you make me realize how too close to home she is for me.
Do you guys have some psychology background?? I have a master's in psych and this is so fun to listen to and how psychology principles apply to the characters. Very good stuff!
Lee studied some psychology.
I really enjoyed this. For the record, I so prefer the idea that Rey is first, foremost, in the end and at the last Herself RATHER THAN her parents.
I really enjoy this podcast, I'm really happy I stumbled upon it while looking for a more nuanced analysis of the sequel trilogy. I'm wondering if you'd consider doing a similar deep dive into Luke? I thought it was interesting how Luke can be seen as the villain on the psychological level in TLJ, and I'm curious how you all see Luke's progression from who he was into who he has become? It's such a heated topic, so I'd love to hear your perspectives on it because your conversations are just so much more balanced and have such interesting takes compared to what else I've found so far.
Yeah, we could perhaps do one on Luke. We have an episode on masculinity coming up where we talk about him. A psychology episode could maybe be also cool.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Thanks for the reply! I'm definitely looking forward to that episode on masculinity now too :)
Too much reylo thoughtd in my brain, I was in my bathroom and figured out that my swartzkopf hair care is « bond connector » ! I wish I could show you the pic 😂😂
I'm sure Kylo uses something like that...
Lords of the Sith Podcast 😂😂 of course he does !
Also, if Rey goes looking for her parents, her parents could come back to Jakku while she is away looking for them and they'd miss her, and you get the same result, but we all know that Maz was right, "they're never coming back", and deep down, Rey knows that is true.
So informative and interesting, thank you! Ps...one of the reason you might not have recognized these things when first watching TLJ is because you don’t expect these to be so intelligently done...you don’t go in necessarily with full brain. 😁😁. P.s.s....We do see Rey struggle with her strength....when she knocks that block off the cliff and nearly kills those caretakers. Psss...(lol) Rey only wanting her family is part of everything you have been talking about... that arrested development of when she was five.
Dude, true. Imagine if she killed the caretakers. The story could have taken a holw new dark turn...
Really interesting discussion - can't disagree with anything you've said. It also strikes me that that Luke has not exactly grown up either - he's never married, so he's (in a sense) repressed his own feelings. :)
Perhaps part of Rey's growing proficiency with the Force is that 5-year old mindset - believe or don't believe - that's sort of what Yoda tries to teach Luke. Even Anakin doesn't really believe in the Force so much as want to use it (hence the fall to the Dark Side) and this may be why the Jedi trained very young children - like Jesuit priests.
Isn't it also the case that Rey doesn't know what she wants to *be*?
@@Wien1938 She doesn't want anything that would mean evolving. People usually want to grow, prosper, achieve something... She could be undecided, or have a false goal, but to just to want to remain in Jakku forever as a starving scavenger is odd. But sure, if her destiny is to be a Jedi, she wouldn't know it, right? Still, she should have felt some yearning for something... At least as a hero.
@@Wien1938 Yeah, but the younglings can't do what she can. There could be an argument that the Jedi training is actually counter productive, though.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast
That's part of what really struck me as insightful about your Rey analysis - the more I thought about her as a character in the films, the more she struck me as behaving like (or regressing to) a five-year old (state). I don't mean to speak negative;y of Rey as a character - it's simply excellent characterisation and an exploration of how different damaged people react to the world around each of them.
Odd - yes - here, read "neurotic" in the Freudian sense. It's a neurotic response, which you guys explored superbly (really brought another angle to her a character). We're so used in Western media to the fully formed female character that (I think) we're not comfortable with the idea of a flawed heroine.
Again, this is why I think that Lucasfilm have been so brave to explore these damaged personalities in the storyline - the resolution of their conflicts makes the story resonate with us.
In respect of yearning for hero-status, wouldn't that also argue for a gender differentiation of heroic archetypes? I remember reading some really interesting essays on developing a female version of Campbell's Hero's Journey, of which one major difference in expression is that the heroine is not called to adventure but is forced out on adventure by betrayal or the collapse of the illusory protections.
In Rey's case, she caught in a web of her own wishful thinking, holding on until her parents (inevitable) return, even though she's been waiting for 14 years. She's forced to leave her illusory sanctuary through the arrival of BB8, Finn and the First Order and all the time, she's looking backwards towards that lost sanctuary.
Notice that Rey has been trying to hand off the responsibility that has been thrust onto her shoulders - to Han, to Luke and even to Ben Solo (subconsciously expecting him to take over her role in the Resistance). All this so that she can go home.
It's not until Ben "betrays" her by refusing to take on this burden and remaining Kylo Ren that Rey is forced to accept that she is needed (which is a universal of the hero or heroine archetype). The question that must be raised at the end of TLJ is to what end must she be a hero? We've all noticed the tension between the expectation of Rey the Jedi Hero as seen by the others in the Resistance and the self-doubt in Rey's eyes when she talks to Leia.
I'm not quite sure how to answer this question but this aspect of "which way the hero/heroine looks" is quite neatly differentiated between Luke and Rey. The former is told:
"This one a long time have I watched.
All his life has he looked away...
to the future, to the horizon.
Never his mind on where he was.
Hmm? What he was doing."
Where as Rey is told:
"The belonging you seek is not behind
you. It is ahead."
Luke is not concentrating on where he is and therefore not on where he is going. Rey is looking for something irrecoverable in her past. The future belonging for the heroine, if it is not to be sterile, is to belong with the hero (Ben Solo) but to achieve that belonging she must accept the adult self and the price that demands.
Excellent video, girls 👌
Thanks!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast 🙏
they had a big opportunity to do something great with her and Ren and even Finn (not so much Poe, he's just another Han really..) and they screwed it up. I hope they build out the sequel stuff more
Wow this is about the Psychology of Rey but thiiiis is why I have so many issues
Oh, yeah, we can learn about ourselves looking at characters.
5:40. So cute.
I also totally agree on a physical level she didn't struggle and I think that's very hard for people to accept. Even for myself. But she struggles so much emotionally. She just wants belonging. I think her not having any aspirations in tfa beyond that is because she's so stuck in that child like mentality.
Yeah, her lack of aspirations is really interesting, but it can be frustrating for viewers.
I never related to a character as much as I do with Rey, especially after listening to this. I suspect that that isn't particularly good lol. ah well #reyloforever #lordsofthesithforever
Hello there!
Hey!
General Kenobi!
@@rowangreenleaf Your move...
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast / Lee Green btw, I am about to head into work. I will be listening and commenting on the podcast when I get home. I have legit been looking forward to this one.
@@rowangreenleaf Ok. So first, I love the video. I really think the format of having you lay down these psychological concepts before having a conversation with Denise about it is a great way to go through everything. I definitely feel like I have a better understanding of what you've been getting at with Rey. Having gone through some trauma in life myself, a lot of what you said about her decision-making does make a little more sense to me now. The problem though is that this makes her somewhat inaccessible to people who haven't gone through similar trauma themselves, don't have a basic understanding of psych, or who don't watch videos like this that spell it all out. I feel as though the most important attributes for any protagonist to have is to be relatable, have easily understood and clearly defined motivations, or preferably both.
The other big issue that comes up for me is her lack of a real mentor and how that affects the believability of Reylo. Generally speaking, two sick people are not going to make each other well. I am a recovering addict, and I have seen many times a guy and girl with just a few weeks clean get together and think they can fix eachother. Every single time they will end up getting high together and bringing out the absolute worst in eachother. Rey and Ben are both still very deep in their respective traumas, and the idea of them pulling eachother out without dealing with their issues independently is a bit naive and should be a barrier to their growth more than it should be an asset. The hopeless romantic in me wants to think that they can save eachother, but the rational part of me knows that unless they deal with their issues seperate from each other first, they would only cause themselves both to regress.
In hindsight, I think the best thing for Rey's character would have been more time with Han. Han being an orphan himself who grew up on a rough and tumble planet (with even his own version of Unkat Plutt to deal with in the form of Lady Proxima), I think he could have been a very good mentor for her had they had more time together. Alas, Harrison Ford wanted out, lol.
I think there is still hope for Reylo, but they have to get both of these characters done perfectly in IX. A visit from Anakin's force ghost would go a long way in helping Ben, and Ahsoka coming into the picture to mentor Rey would definitely help 😉😍. I want to see a great love story between these two, but even more than that I want to see them function well as characters without eachother first. I think Kylo has been done very well, but there is ground to be made up with Rey.
The last thing I want to comment on is the idea of Rey being a Mary Sue or too perfect. I've talked to a lot of people about this and the number one complaint I hear is that Rey's victories do not feel earned, and I am inclined to agree. Her defeating Kylo on SKB could atleast be explained by Kylo's injuries combined with him trying recruit her rather than kill her, but she has done a lot of incredible things with little explanation. I know they tried to retcon some of it in the TLJ novelization by saying she downloaded his skills, but even then it means that her ability to succeed has just been handed to her. I tried to ignore this problem myself until she made that triple kill shot on the three TIEs over Crait moments after the trauma of the throne room scene. That took me right out of the movie when it happened. She hasn't experienced much in the way of failure outside of things that could be considered subjective or psychological. Far too often it feels as though the story has done whatever is necessary to make her look strong and powerful at the expense of other characters and the coherence of the plot. That is what many people object to about her. A small percentage of those people are probably even more critical because she is woman, but even if that is the case it doesn't invalidate the complaints mentioned above.
Again, a great and informative video that you two should be very proud of. I know I learned a lot watching it. I feel I understand Rey far better now, however I still feel that RJ kind of dropped the ball with her in TLJ. I think he had some great ideas that were just not executed particularly well. I think RJ was great for Reylo, but not great for Rey by herself.
The grandma in me is scared they are gonna burn their hands in that scene. Like noo not over the fire
LOL.
Well now that the "Disney Trilogy" is done i feel that the two main characters Rey and Kylo/Ben just both ended up isolated in the end. And i mean isolated from EVERYONE. Ben died, Rey was back with her friends, Finn, Poe, BB8, Chewie, R2 and C3P0. She celebrates with them for abit, the Galaxy is now at peace (for the time being) and everything is okay.
But its the next scene when shes heads off to Tatooine to pay her respects to the Skywalkers, she takes their name, fair enough (even though many of you kept banging on about how Rey doesnt have to come from anyone special or famous in the galaxy, and that the message is really that you can come from nothing and rise to forge your own destiny, but well so much for that idea people sorry) and just seeing her sand-sliding down the bank and checking out the Skywalker homestead. It all felt weird to me, i mean sure its where Luke himself grew up i guess but also would have had painful memories because its where his aunt and uncle died.
But anyway Reys sitting around and stuff, there shes just on her own, she just feels to me like some random person walking through a museum of histories shes never known alot about. Then sees the ghosts of Luke and Leia and thats it.
Theres something about that ending that just makes Rey feel very isolated, shes on her own completely, like when shes on the bank looking on at the twin suns just like Luke was. Yeh maybe you can think that the Falcon is parked up somewhere and her friends are onboard just giving her a moment. But why couldnt they have had it where her friends, Finn, Poe and Chewe are all standing by her looking on?
But then maybe the whole idea was for the focus to be on her, Rey cause i guess this was always supposed to be a Female-Centric story, afterall it was Kathleen Kennedy's idea to create a story that could draw more women into the franchise, which is why/where you get "Reylo".
And im not saying i have a problem with this, my problem is exactly HOW the story overall was executed, how all the characters were treated. Why Rey simply comes across like a mary sue in the eyes of most fans, because they were so obsessed with trying to empower her, the writers got too scared to even give her any single "flaw".
And then in the end, having the focus be on Rey, having her standing on that sand bank looking on at the twin suns, yes it rhymes, but having it be right at the end, just makes her feel shut off from everyone else. So and if this is the female-centric angle they wanted, in the end all they have done is simply isolate both Rey and Ben from not only each other, but the whole Saga in general as a whole.
They're the DYAD, they the be-all-end-all of EVERYTHING. It has now all ended with them, and well with Rey. Cause she had ALL THE JEDI INSIDE OF HER.
Thats strange that Rey had all of the jedi inside of her when she faced the emperor, how come Luke never had all the jedi inside him when he faced the emperor 30 years ago?
Agree that that last scene is odd and conveys isolation and loneliness.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yes it does and whats most troubling is JJ opens TFA showing us this scavenger girl going out on a day work, searching for scrap inside the hulls of the giant relics of the galactic civil war.
Then we see her head home, inside her AT AT home, cooking her meal for the day and etching out another day in the life.
JJ perfectly conveys to us that this is a girl who has been isolated and in loneliness for so long on Jakku.
Then we get to the end of TROS, end of the Disney Trilogy and nothing has changed much for Rey, she appears still isolated and lonely. So in essence we have learned nothing more about her since we were introduced to her like a year and abit ago.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I mean you can argue that we have learned something about Rey; that she is a dyad in the force, she practically saved the galaxy and defeated the Emperor, she did all these things and in the end we just see her at pretty much the same point we saw her at the beginning.
If the one big thing to be taken from this movie is female empowerment, its just a shame that the feminist approach of the Disney Trilogy as a whole seems to make it look like women kicking ass, being seen as powerful and strong, brave, "empowered" seem to only ever do these things and end up alone and isolated from everyone else in the story in general.
E.g. Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo in TLJ, she saves the Resistance by evacuating everyone off the Raddus except herself then hyper-spacing the ship into Snoke's fleet. Everyone not even Ackbar is allowed to stay and help her do this, because its got to be her moment, the moment in the movie of empowerment for the female character. So shes isolated.
Rey doing her thing and defeating the Emperor. Ben is taken out of the equation, they dont face him together. The focus is solely on her and im sure i remember you girls making a video saying that Ben is actually the main character in all of this. Although i could be wrong it could have been someone else's video entirely.
The one point im trying to get at here is im just seeing alot of the type of "feminist messaging" being pushed in alot of movies lately is one thats kind of saying "women dont need no man."
Examples the 2016 Ghostbusters, Ocean's 8 felt they needed to kill off Danny Ocean in order to bring in all girls. Terminator Dark Fate felt they needed to kill off John Connor in order to replace with a "female John Connor" in the form of Dani Ramos character.
Even just recently The Last of Us 2 Ellie's friend Joel a male character is horribly killed off to push forward focus on Ellie.
Its happening everywhere now and its not about men and women working together to defeat a threat etc, but the male character is killed off entirely.
And this is whats interesting here Kathleen Kennedy's goal was to attract more women into the Star Wars franchise, i'd argue that the women have always been arnd in this franchise from the start, but lets just say that Kennedy wanted to "even out the numbers". And so maybe she has done that bringing in many of you Reylos.
But yet they kill off Ben Solo at the end so they brought you women into it, but still never fulfilled what you wanted. And had the two end up together at the end.
Have you heard Kathleen Kennedy is trying to get another female-centric story off the ground? With this woman name Leslye Headland. I hope it can be better executed and not alienate the fanbase in general if it happens.
@@RaikenXion Agree that this idea of powerful, lonely female isn't good. I think KK wanted to bring female fans with Reylo, for sure. But they didn't plan it out well and ended up not giving it a satisfying ending. Even with death they could have given maybe a better conclusion. Let's hope they'll learn for sure. Headland, from what I saw, has complex characters, so at least in principle it should be good. Let's wait and see and hope for the best. I do think that all SW fans want the same thing: memorable stories with interesting characters.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yes! Thats exactly what we all want, fans just want a interesting and magical story set in the galaxy with compelling characters.
The Starwars fans arnt looking at race or gender, but Kathleen Kennedy and those at Lucasfilm are. And yet after all of Kathleen Kennedy's "girl power talk" have you noticed shes never even given a female director a chance to direct a Star War movie.
Headland on the other hand is a tricky matter, she is popular with women for her female centric stories thats for sure. And while she could easily write, interesting and complex characters. The main problem is that Star Wars at it's best is meant to appeal to kids as well as adults. The story and it's characters would need to be easy enough for the kids and general audience to follow.
But theres something more serious a issue with Leslye Headland, she used to be a PA for the sexual predator of Hollywood Harvey Weinstein, and it seems she may know quite alot about him from her time working for him than she would let on.
When Variety first leaked that Headland had been hired by Lucasfilm, people found out that she had suddenly deleted over 200 tweets on her twitter feed.
Disney's main image has always been Family Orientated, they will now have to weigh up how much they want a solid female writer on the Lucasfilm team, compared to how much they want to risk that image, once people find out a particular writer once worked as a personal assistant to Weinstein a known sexual predator.
Well...the lifting 100 rocks at the same time, downing 3 TIEs at once, fighting the Elite guards and only getting a tiny nick on the arm are all a bit Mary Sueish
Yeah, she's a bit OP, for sure. The Mary Sue terms is a bit loaded, though, since it's so much against "self-insertion" (as if men hadn't self inserted in stories for millennia) and too focused on female characters.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Well its obvious JJ made Palpatine her grandad because Kenobi was notoriously weak in the Force. This technically makes Obi Wan a Gary Stue, considering he defeated more Sith than any other Jedi, including Darth Vader! Even Yoda doesn't have his win/loss record against Sith Lords. But you couldn't have super-Rey be anyone other than a Palpatine because she shares his ridiculous Force powers; one an old politician who's not seen the inside of a gym or an obstacle course for decades, the other an undertrained young woman from nowhere, neither of whom should be as strong as they are.
@@edinscot56789 the issue is that instead of fixing her by adding conflict to her character, they simply added a powerful ancestry. It doesn't fix the issue, I think.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast We all know what the agenda is. We all know. It'll implode in on itself for sure. I'll have the popcorn and the beers at the ready when Feminism collapses in on itself like the proverbial black hole that it is.
Doesn’t Rey want the same thing Luke and Anakin want love and family? I think you were too harsh on the character at the end.
The issue with Rey is that her wants are regressive. Usually characters have a want that propels then forward. Anakin didn't spend his days wanting to go back to Tatooine for his mom. Luke is torn from his family in the beginning of the saga and doesn't keep moping or looking back. Plus, Luke wants to be part of the Rebellion, he wants to be a pilot, he wants to save the Galaxy, he's got all these dreams and yearns for more. Anakin's eyes brighten when he hears about the Jedi, and he wants to be a Jedi Master and be part of the council. Rey is all: "I want to go back to Jakku", and it's frustrating in a character, even though it makes sense in many ways. Nothing against wanting a family.
Many romance heroines want to find love and that's all, but it's about going out in the world, taking risks, and getting it, not staying home waiting for a dead family to come back. Again, it's an interesting/different take on Rey.
But it's fine if you see it differently. The idea here is not to bash Rey. She's quite an interesting character.
I hate it so much when people call Rey a Mary Sue. I thought so too at first, but when you look below the surface and analyze her character, you notice how flawed she actually is.
BB-8 is more of a Gary Stu than Rey is a Mary Sue :D
Hey beautifuls
Hey!
I may be the only one, but I'm getting audio issues in this video
We'll look into that. Thanks for letting us know!
1:01:00 You are belittling Rey for caring more about family than profession? FAMILY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PROFESSION. It's heartbreaking that women have swallowed this materialist lie that wanting a family is not "empowering" enough. LOVE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MATERIAL POWER. Family is the greatest happiness and the greatest achievement. You are the victim of some genuinely evil propaganda.
I think Rey aspires for more but her main priority was to find belonging. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to find your family or find belonging. That’s not a gender aspiration that’s a human aspiration. You almost sound as if it’s not ok for either gender to want family and belonging. If a woman wants that it’s automatically viewed as a domestic thing? If a man seeks it that’s automatically viewed as weakness? Is Kylo weak because he seeks belonging too? Respectfully I disagree I do feel they showed her desire to have more but she struggles with letting go of the hope that her family will return for her. She doesn’t want to believe they abandoned her on purpose. I think the films have even shown her having a fantasy about who her parents really are. Abandoned children often develop fantasies that their parents are great people who were forced to separate from them for external reasons that are beyond their control rather than just accepting to themselves that their parents were scumbags who didn’t want them. It’s a defense mechanism they develop to deal with the pain of being unwanted. You could see it in her eyes when she says, “they were nobody” how hard it is for the character to accept the fact that her hopes that they were great people who didn’t mean to leave her are shattered by the reality that they were bums who didn’t give a shit. Idk that’s how I view her. I believe she has aspirations of becoming a savior and helping people on a cosmic level but she had to face her reality first, and Kylo actually made her face that reality. “Let the past die, kill it if you have to. It’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.” Honestly he was right, the only way for her to pursue her own dreams was to accept her parents were jerks who abandoned her and were never coming back for her. Letting go of this allows her to stop focusing on them returning, and she can now make her own dreams and aspirations her priority. Ben Solo did that for her, yup that happened.
Oh, no, I think finding belonging is fine, and the need for love and belonging is something all humans have. That said, people usually have other aspirations, and I don't see it in Rey in TFA. IIf anything, she turns away from her dream job. It's neat that you see Rey as a character with aspirations. It's all a matter of interpretation, right? And I agree with you that she would only be able to follow her aspirations and evolve as a person was by letting go of her need to look back.
Lords of the Sith Podcast I always thought that was the point of the moment she stares at the old woman at the beginning of TFA. Her fear of being abandoned there on Jakuu until old age has taken her. Wasting away waiting for them to come back never having followed her own dreams. If she didn’t have dreams of getting out of Jakuu and having more why did JJ put that in the movie. I do respect your opinion but I never saw her as not having aspirations or wanting to leave, I always saw it as she was afraid to leave without them.
Lords of the Sith Podcast the same concept as Luke staring at the twin suns in ANH right? Just different symbolism his moment was time going by being stuck on that farm, her moment is time going by being trapped in that junk yard.
Lords of the Sith Podcast do you think at that time in her life (in the story) maybe she wasn’t sure what she wanted out of life yet? I mean don’t all young people go through that. You know you want to get out but not quite sure yet what you’ll do when you are finally out and free to make choices?
your thinking too much about such weakly written story/scripts
I agree. I do think the script writing is weak and I’m not sure the director has put this much thought into the characters motivation. However I love the analysis in these podcasts and I believe they had a real depth and richness to the characters.
Thank you for another stellar video!