How Female Sexuality is portrayed in the Sequel Trilogy
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- From exchanging the force in TFA, to wet gloves and a wet cave in TLJ, to Klaud, snake in a cave, and phallic symbols everywhere in TROS, Mary and Denise look at sexual undertones, symbolism, and how female sexuality is portrayed in the Sequel Trilogy.
We discuss the sexual undertones and symbolism from The Force Awakens, how The Last Jedi had a different approach, and how The Rise of Skywalker tried to rise up to the challenge.
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VIDEO EDITING: Mary
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One thing I also notice is in male led movies a lot of the time the do the bond girl trope and get a newer fresher love interest but females are always the perpetual widow who has a hard time moving on.
Yes. Again, I think there's a lack of empathy with female characters.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast and using them as disposable sex objects
The crazy thing about TROS is it gives the villain everything he wanted and it gives the heroine nothing she wanted. It doesn't even care what she wanted; she's just handed the Skywalker/Jedi legacy and she gamely accepts it. She's not even with her "found family" at the end of the movie. She reverts back to what she was when we found her in TFA, alone in the desert, inhabiting some shell of the past. Abrams and Kasdan created a heroine with a lot of potential. In TLJ we got spoiled with Johnson writing her like a real person. "JJerio" then decided her value lies in being the person who gets someone else's legacies tossed to her because what that means to the audience matters more than having Rey be her own person.
After the development from TFA to TLJ with Rey's growth from girl to woman, the phallus obsessed TROS is not about balance between the genders but rather an undercutting and undoing of Rey's awakening; her power is not her own, it's Palpatine's, and, her saber is luke's (which she must to EARN). Her pure white outfit and her never actually dealing with her innate darkness is an undoing of her development into a fully realized person and even more so as a woman. TROS felt like a punishment for female sexuality, rey got her shameful exploration only to be reverted to her virginal self (with no happy ending or romantic partner) as a dogmatic and unwavering (all of the) jedi. The meta apologetic tone with which JJ undid lots of moments in TLJ was an apology to male fans for allowing women agency and power through their sexuality (maybe?)
not to mention that they straight up cut out Rose who was comfortable with her sexuality (shown by her kissing finn) and replaced her with Jannah who is very meet cute with finn and is portrayed more girlishly than womanly.
@@Anna-yy5zw Oh, yes, there was a regression in many ways. The phallus obsession can also be an unconscious decision to make the movie "masculine". Even Leia got a saber. I guess I'd rather not hate the movie and think that there was something decent there. We know that the movie would have been more about the dyad, for example. A lot of these decisions came late in reshoots, which seemed to have been made to please male fans, for sure.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I wish i didn't hate the movie and I'm planning to rewatch it soon but my pain is still pretty raw because I related so much to Rey and to her journey into womanhood (I'm just a first year in college). I felt betrayed by a story I loved. Eventually, I think I'll be less bitter and accept TROS for what it is...
@@Anna-yy5zw agreed! I feel so hurt and betrayed and I can never think about Star Wars in the same way
After exploring her sexuality, Rey is punished to be alone in the desert because to Disney standards, that is the only outcome that could be acceptable.
I like Rey from TLJ more then from TROS, how she look in the last film, going to woman hood, but in TROS everything went 360s is disappointed for me to watch, a woman being a pure virgin, not having a relationship with a guy to start a family, to give love to the person who they love, Ben and Rey deserves better. 💞💞💞
Dark Rey is a recurrence of the Evil Queen trope - that if you (the heroine) are tempted by Power, you will end up as an Evil Queen, destroying all life as a mockery of the female.
In this, I think Mary is EXACTLY right in that the writers have leaned into the comic book/superhero genre for inspiration and NOT into fairy tales or mythology.
Interesting point by Denise at 38.48 that she reverts to rejecting evil rather than integrating both the light and the dark. It's as if Johnson was writing a Jungian dialogue but Abrams and Terrio are writing a purity play.
Great comment; jungian dialogue vs. purity play. I think Dark Rey, if seen as ser sexual side that she fears is quite an interesting concept. But usually when a hero fears something that is internal, they have to work onthat fear. In this case, it would be to integrate Dark Rey. But Dark Rey is really nice, right? She's happy, confident. If I were Rey I'd want to be that badass.
This is just what Disney wanted. It's hard to accept and it's frustating, but at the end of the day this is how they are going to keep to the heroes vs villains theme in Star Wars. Rey is their new hero/Luke 2.0 and Kylo the villain/Vader 2.0. I do believe due to the outcry in time Rey and Ben's story will end different in either animation or the comics, but for now this is what we are stuck with. When I say in time, I'm talking at least 7 to 10 years. I guess those of us still around will get to see what happens, but in the meantime its heartbreaking and has really put a damper on the saga.
Yeah, couldn't agree more. I think rian was the only one who could get away with what he wanted to portray
@@alejandramiche2900 Rian worked with the LFSG and that's the big difference. I honestly think Iger due to the angry backlash tied JJ's hands. I still think JJ and Terrio did a terrible job regardless of that fact, but all it did was make TROS a bigger mess. We also have to factor in what Disney wanted for the long term as far as story. What they wanted for their parks and to ultimately profit on Kylo the villain, not Ben the hero.
@@KimberlyStarr21 Also, very much true
I didnt think Kylo was a vader 2.0
It was used as Kylo wanting to fulfill in Vaders shoes.
"They think of her what she represents rather than her of what she wants."
This is a perfect quote of what TROS did wrong with her character. That's why most of her choices felt off (except Reylo kiss and that she heals Ben)
Great videos as always!
Right? The discussion has always been "but Kylo doesn't deserve her", which means that she is a prize to be earned, not a person with desires. Ugh. I feel that if writers tried to see the world from her eyes, instead of looking at her, this wouldn't happen.
Omg I love when you guys post, I love they way you analysis the sequel trilogy
I'm still pissed off at DLF, to the point that I refuse to watch anything Star Wars or Disney, but I also think that there are too many clues pointing to the WBW and the Dyad bond for us to completely write off a happy ending for Rey and Ben. Ben especially has only gotten more and more popular with each Sequel movie, and the Rise of Kylo Ren comic has certainly done him a lot of favors in emphasizing how tragic he is. There has been so much outcry over his death, even from those who didn't like him going into the theater to see TROS for the first time only to came out saying that he deserved better and was the best/only good character in the ST, that DLF stands to make waaaaay too much money by bringing him back somehow.
There is also the new movie that was announced yesterday (unfortunately I can't remember the directors name). Word around the campfire is that it will take place on Exogol, or at least a large part of it. Chance to lay some more clues perhaps 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
It's Taika Waititi, he's wonderful! I think it was a clickbait article about it being on Exegol. We don't know what this movie is going to be about. I'd bet it has nothing to do with the ST. I still think the idea of Ben coming back is just too profitable for them not to develop in the future. We'll see.
Amazing analysis! I'm still sad about how they treated both Rey and Ben. It seems to me that both Disney and our society in general think female empowerment is about Rey taking down Palpatine on her own and ending up alone on a desert planet. By doing this they also made the whole Ben Solo redemption arc redundant because he ends up dead anyway. They used Ben Solo as a means to an end as he was only there to save Rey so the "pure" heroine gets to live. The saddest part for me was that at the end of TROS our 2 protagonists never get the belonging they both longed for. The message I got from all this was that redemption is useless, no one will ever love you no matter how much you try to make things right. You can only redeem yourself through death...
Oh, yes, they thought badass "I am all the Jedi Rey Skywalker" would be empowering. It's not. She's not even herself. And as to the last Skywalker, he didn't even help defeat Palpatine... It was sad.
And It was like, Ben could not deserve happiness for what he did as Kylo. Not acknowledge of his positive turn, his decision to grow up, and free himself from the abuse and corruption he suffered from the Siths. It was really unfulfilling.
ABSOLUTELY agree with the powerful symbolism of Dark Rey & its power & patriarchal threat. And definitely not a fan AT ALL of the "nice guy" for the girl trope especially when those are the men most often who are actually covertly predatory.
Dissects and discusses for 30 min- then “I don’t think they knew what they were doing”. I click thumbs up!
I think we can find symbolism where none was intended. Sometimes it seems that there was something that could have been interesting in TROS, but I'm not sure if we'll ever know.
Lords of the Sith Podcast I love you two keep up the cause!
The regression of both Rey and Kylo/Ben in TROS was honestly insulting and I don't think we'll ever get something like TLJ Rey and Kylo/Ben again.
We don't know, maybe we'd have competent creators. But LF also needs a positive corporate environment that's not afraid of telling those stories.
Another thing I didn't hear brought up is how we have this problematic relationship with Leia in TROS where Leia does all this training and mentoring in the force with Rey that she never did with Ben, basically becoming force mom (which is massively unfair to Ben but also unfair to Rey). If we are going to accept Leia as Rey's pseudo surrogate mom, then why did we not see any parallels to the conventional relationship rites that happen between a mother and a daughter like embracing her womanhood, how to navigate her femininity or the nuance of being a female authority figure/leader... hell we could have had a makeover moment. You can't convince me that with Leia's flair for hairstyles, she was gonna let that girl go back to those homely buns. I'd like to think if Carrie Fisher had lived there would have been a scene where they went to a diplomatic meeting and Rey got to be dressed up in a fantastical Padme-esque gown.
Those are some cool ideas.
TROS was an total disaster! Couldn’t agree more that it sends the wrong messages all over the place! I knew as soon as I saw Rey with the same hairstyle and costume from the first movie that we were in trouble! A lot of the blame needs to be placed on Disney and Kathleen Kennedy ! Have to let Disney in on a little secret here! Star Wars is the story of the Skywalker! The last thing you do is kill off the last Skywalker which is Ben Solo! Rey can call herself a Skywalker if she wants but it’s about the bloodline!
Yeah, to end the Skywalker saga with all the Skywalkers dead... I mean, if they were going to kill the last Skywalker, he should have gone with a big bang and be known as a hero, not simply disappeared so that the virtuous good girl can take the name.
Lords of the Sith Podcast well all may not be lost. Ben disappeared on Exogol which if my Star Wars lore in correct is one of the chain worlds that contains a portal to The World Between Worlds! I think that’s how the emperor was able to come back!
Oh yes! I totally agree! and i just wish more of you reylos would see the real enemy and thing to blame here is Kennedy and DISNEY!!! Kennedy has spoken so often of how shes wanted more opportunities for "women" infront of and behind the camera. But ever notice how she never once hired a "female director" to do a Star wars movie!?
Why did Kennedy when she brought back JJ, get him to co-write TROS with someone like Patty Jenkins? She has proven she can write women very well. Maybe thats what it needed for the concluding part, to different thinkers to bounce ideas off of each other and reach a satisfying conclusion.
I hated seeing Rey in the same costume it felt lazy, she should have been a Skywalker from the start! Well that or just made it where she was raised by Lor San Tekka, he was a friend of the Skywalkers and helped travel with Luke to find the Acho-To Island planet. He gave the piece of map to Poe at beginning of TFA, so it was just too much of a coincidence that he knew Luke and happens to live a few miles from Rey, who was dropped off on Jakku by her parents, who were killed by Ochi.
But the whole Skywalker name issue, they shot themselves in the foot there, they didnt actually want Rey to be connected directly to any familiar character, they wanted her to be her own character, her own woman, female empowerment and all that. They felt having her trained by Luke kind of ruined all that.
Then having it end with Ben cause he has Skywalker blood in him, that fits as continuity in concluding the epic story of the "Skywalkers" yes, but Disney and Kennedy saw it as, the character of Ben is a "white male" and they wanted it all to end with female empowerment, which was why they had it be Rey who ultimately defeats Sideous herself and it ends with her, but just taking the Skywalker name.
This is what Disney's gender politics is like, and how they try to force it into movies, they wanted their cake and eat it, they knew it has to end as "Skywalker" cause thats the name of the Saga as a whole and who its always been about. But they didnt want it ending with a man in there anywhere which was why you got the ending that was.
But in the "end" WE ARE ALL LOOSERS HERE and Disney made their $1b at the box office.
Yep I agree Rey totally got screwed over in Tros. They all did.
1] When I saw the lightsabers touching on the poster for TROS, I immediately thought of the famous Shakespeare quote: "Journeys end in lovers meeting."
2] We see a symbolic flicker of the conflict between men and women, during an argument between Rey and Poe. She says, "You're a very difficult man", and his comments in return have a slightly-misogynistic tone. At one point, it actually sounds like he was about to call her a b***h and stopped himself.
& 3] "Star Wars" seems to have been having more and more trouble lately, accepting the female side of its fanbase. These issues aren't just restricted to the movies themselves, or even to only that franchise. I see it every day in stores. Kids' toys are separated along gender-lines, and so are certain articles of clothing. For example, I found my "Jurassic Park" t-shirt in the guys' department, along with shirts for "Star Wars" and other franchises. It's so unfair. I was, like, "What are they trying to tell me here? Girls can like this stuff, too. Girls can play just as big of a role."
I'm sorry for rambling, and for going off on the tangent in that last bit, but everything you talked about here seemed to relate to that. You did a great job, girls. I had a great time listening.
I agree with you that this probably has to do with the idea that Star Wars is for boys, and trying to make Star Wars masculine again. There's even a possibility that the overabundance of phallic symbols is to overstate that masculinity, not necessarily related to Rey and her perception/fear of Kylo.
I love you guys! But I can’t help but feel sad because...you know, Ben’s death. I don’t think a happy ending was planned, but, at least in my opinion, the ending is not even bittersweet, it’s just sad and so freaking bad.
At least we’ll always have The Last Jedi. Thank you, guys!
I really think that JJ wanted Rey and Kylo to end up together, but he was so fixed on the nostalgia and thought that Kylo was like Vader so he had to end up like him and die. But Vader was old and the redemption felt earned, where as Kylo was young, so it just felt sad and weird that he should die. You don’t kill the young they represent HOPE,
and is that not what Star Wars is all about?.
I actually agree. He likes Reylo and it's clear in the enthusiasm he talks about it. I don't know what happened for that ending. Even a death and a sacrifice should have been done differently.
I actually would not be surprise if JJ did not intend to kill Ben. Some things in the script make more sense if Ben doesn't die. Leia's abandoned Jedi career being the most obvious. That whole storyline only makes sense if Ben lives, otherwise we wasted a scene learning about some kind of premonition Leia had where she foresaw a way to save her son from death before he was even born. But that premonition turned out to be wrong because despite her sacrifice Ben died anyway and thus that storyline had no bearing on the plot whatsoever, yet we wasted time on it. That plotine goes nowhere. It makes more sense for it to be there if there was a version of the script where Leia' sacrifice of her Jedi career saved Ben. Same thing with Han telling Ben that his son is alive, just a few minutes before Ben dies. Han saying that would pack more of a punch if Ben was saved, otherwise it falls a bit flat on rewatch, even comes out as a bit comically ironic. Then Rey's lack of reaction to Ben's death would also make more sense if they had to reshoot some stuff last minute and use old footage they had before rewriting the ending and killing him. I honestly am not sure if JJ is to blame for Ben's death specifically. His death does really feel like an awkward last minute rewrite. A lot of the thing I mention would make more sense if he lived.
Leila M-K yes it all feels really weird. The moment has not emotions. I’m big on crying, and I felt nothing, and Kylo/Ben is my favorite, but i didn’t feel anything. Perhaps because all of their scenes in this movie, were a bit off. I did like Ben in the end, so sweet, soft and caring, but he didn’t say anything...so weird. WTF happend, they are experienced moviemakers, and the story, pace and beats were really strange. 🥴🤔.
yes, it was all very weird, and you're right that they are experienced. Yes, Terrio is a bad writer, but JJ is not such a clueless director... Weird.
@@leilam-k9569 I agree that the movie doesn't hint at a possible death. I've said before, that if they were to kill Ben, the whole movie should have been different. In fact, the entire trilogy. Oh, well. It is done.
So glad you ladies did this deep dive. This perspective is very much needed and I appreciate that you addressed it head-on. Thank you and +100 to everything you said!
Oh, the ‘seed of skywalker’ line! When I heard that, I was like, hmmm 🤔 But then it was all for naught. 😑
The seed of Skywalker lives! Yes! I guess I'll have to keep a headcanon that it lives somewhere. I can't accept seeing that family so unceremoniously wiped out.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I'm ignoring the whole Ben dying for good thing.
It's a burned home, it is destroyed! The point of a destroyed home in a narrative is that the hero cannot go back...it is the point of mo return for the hero. But this isn't even her house, it means nothing to her just to the audience
True! We forgot the symbolism of that. And makes no sense whatsoever for Rey. It means using her for someone else's story.
I wished both rey and ben had a happy ending but unfortunately i realised that was not going to happen as the day were i was going to watch the movie and finding out someone leaked it on twitter that he died, and my mum came in wondering why i was a little angry and i had to tell her which made her sad as kylo/ben was her favorite character.
Even though we knew it was going to happen, when we saw that scene we both cried my mum more than myself though.
i just wish someone in the skywalker family had a happy ending...
I'm so over this trilogy. It just makes me mad now. Your videos are the only SW content I've watched lately, great analysis.
I'm glad you're still watching.
The Skywalker Saga is all about bad boys and their good girls.
Anakin and Padme’s bad boy/good girl love story was meant to end tragically. But, we have an almost successful bad boy/good girl romance in Han and Leia. Leia wears white straight through ANH and TESB until she comes to Bespin, where she finally sheds her virginal duds. (Those new colorful threads are given to her by another bad boy, Lando.) By that time her romance with Han has heated up (that Luke kiss at the beginning of Empire was only to spite Han). Han, a pure scoundrel (he shot first) at the beginning of ANH had by its end, mended his ways enough to earn a medal. By the time Empire rolls around he had become a respected member of the resistance. He’d redeemed himself because he was in love and wanted to become a man worthy of Leia. Also, in ANH he’d both redeemed and atoned for his space pirate sins by saving Luke so he could destroy the Death Star. We find out in TFA that he’d not been successful at totally vanquishing his roguish ways. But people still respected him and Leia still loved him.
TROS allowed Han and Leia’s son to redeem himself by sacrificing his life for the woman he loved thus making him worthy of her but, it denied him the chance to achieve ATONEMENT.
I agree with the lack of atonement. There's also the issue that we never see him decide to sacrifice himself, since we weren't told that it would lead to his death. We don't know if he or Rey knew it either, so it's weak for a sacrifice.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I agree. Rey had saved his life without giving up her own so I don’t see why he wouldn’t assume that he’d live. Also, he knew what being a dyad meant - power as great as LIFE itself. I don’t think he had a clue he would die. So poorly thought out by JJ. A friend of mine said that his telling ghostly Han, “I know what I have to do, etc.” was his acknowledging that he was going to have to sacrifice himself but I think that was just about totally shedding Kylo Ren by tossing the lightsaber away, right?
I think a lot of us are still mourning the final of the saga, it was bittersweet and not conclusive at all. I was annoyed about the coment that Rey kissed Kylo as a "thank you" because to me, is the kind of thinking that a man could ask for something if he did a favor to a woman as she had to appreciated what is being done for her. To me, the kiss scene that could hold so much power and meaning was delgated to a bad role model from both of them. Furthermore, that JJ and CT had no even the courage to face the decisions they made. I remember that in the gobal press conference, one of the first question was to J Boyega about the romance with Rose and he just laugth... and then that the writters had to explain the scenes and what the characters were thinking... that they have to explain that they did it for the fans... I have to say that even when I don't like all the decisions that RJ made in TLJ, he put his foot down in what he was triying to show to the audience and not just to the fanbase. A lot of people don't remember that before the Clone Wars, a lot of things about how the force works was not even canon or explored. I enjoyed your vision on this topic. Thank you for doing these videos!!!
Another point to TLJ in financial terms, in RUclips TROS is in rent for $50 (mexican pesos) in HD. TLJ is just available to buy for $200 (mexican pesos), you can't rent it.
Guys, thank you for another podcast I get to listen while i'm doing home office ;D .. Can I suggest, since we're all on the same bandwagon on almost hating the entire plot of TROS, what if the next one is about the reylo fanfics that have shaped the fandom? it's probably really random, but there are some fics out there that are just worthy of their own analysis, fanart as well. And in a way, it helps us to celebrate the things we DO like about the sequel trilogy.
Oh, it is a good idea. I'll confess that I (Denise) don't read fanfiction, though. I just have a huge issue with suspension of disbelief, but I think it's a wonderful artistic expression, it's a way many writers get started, and overall it's super awesome. Mary reads fanfic, so I'll see if she can do a solo episode or partner with someone else, and it would be cool to celebrate creators. She did participate in a episode about fanfiction for Six Degrees of Kylo Ren. ruclips.net/video/gaAY7aqH80s/видео.html
I do own all the movies. I love the films but after Ben's death I find myself not caringing after that. We should have had the Reylo happy ending. I can't help think that Kathleen Kennedy influenced J.J. to kill Ben off or something like that. I do want to believe that Ben is coming back because he says to Rey "I'll always be with you" in the novelization.
The person who was working closely with the production of The Rise of Skywalker was Bob Iger, so if someone interfered, it would be him. We can't know if there was a happy ending planned, though. I feel it should be slightly bittersweet due to the circumstances. The issue is that it doesn't make sense.
I believe thats exactly what she did, shes never wanted male characters to have anykind of standing in the Star Wars movies shes produced. I understand how important it is to empower women especially in this franchise. The only problem is this was always the "Skywalker Saga", thats what George Lucas created, but Kennedy and Disney twisted that.
What i find very sad is how most of the characters ended up, Admiral Ackbar a OT favorite has a death thats not even acknowledge. Leia ends up dying on her own and yes tragic about Carrie in real life that did not help her story arc. Luke died on that island planet, having never reconciled with Han, never got to meet Lando or have a reunion with his old friends in these movies.
Sad that Ben was killed off and not allowed to be with Rey and most sad that they tried so hard to push this female empowerment in the character of Rey, that in the end, she is so perfect, powerful and everything (i am all the Jedi), that she ends up pretty much where she started off, along on a desert planet. No partner, no one to love, like practically nothing.
Maybe im looking into this abit too much but if all this Female Empowerment and feminism you hear about today thats everywhere; if all that says to women you can be anyone you want, do anything you want and you certainly dont need "no man". Then is this how many women could end up? Just alone? Possibly folded into the LGBTQ as lesbians?
I know what i say may seem controversial, but im just being open-minded and wondering where is all this Feminism thats being practiced today, where is it all going to lead?
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you guys say here, and I think the regression and repression you talk about in terms of TROS extends past Rey's sexuality, as the movie sort of strips her of her own autonomy. She does almost nothing for herself; everything she does is either because she's expected to do it, or because it happens to align with what's expected of her (like wanting to kill Palpatine). This is especially clear when you compare it to TLJ, when she goes into the cave for no other reason than wanting to know her history (something which only benefits her), even though Luke told her not to, and, of course, when she touches Kylo/Ben's hand. As a girl who (and I think many people can relate to this) feels pressure to do what people expect and be "perfect", it was very frustrating to see Rey not doing ANYTHING for herself, or, at the very least, have some clear indecisiveness surrounding what's expected of her. They just. . . didn't let her feel feelings, at least not in any meaningful way. she wasn't even that upset when THE OTHER HALF OF HER SOUL died.
I think, especially considering her white outfit, and TFA hair, that they could've had her deal with those expectations going against what she wants for herself, but being scared that her resistance friends will abandon her (like her parents did) if she strays from the path they laid out for her, but. . .they didn't. :(. Also, to speak to what you say at the end about this need for individual strength, this is a message many writers need to grasp; I have heard so many times "she doesn't need a man, so she should end up alone". By this logic, all women in relationships with men are dependent on them, and have no strength of their own, which is CLEARLY not true at all. It's not a weakness to want a relationship.
Anyways, great video!
Great videos guys! Making me think critically about all female protagonists I've seen on screen. Definitely a pattern of ending up alone
Annoying pattern...
It all falls to having women act like men. Terminator dark fate did that
I am at the part were the woman has to settle for the nice guy. I agree. I don't like that message. She has a connection with Ben. They understand each other and they care for each other. No one understood them like they way they understood each other. And considering that they had ups and downs and they never gave up on each other and have chemistry and history to having to settle to an equivalent of a bland romantic partner (if you, again, compare it with everything Rey and Ben went through)... It's like we will always wonder (and Rey too) what would be their future together and pounder on the 'what ifs.'
Can i ask how do you meet the right person? I mean if a guy is too nice from the beginning hes hiding something thats the idea, or hes bland and dull and hs no backbone. So the alpha male type or "bad boy" has the cynical traits, but the idea is that hes truly "good" and just needs to be given that chance to bring that out of him. Would you say this is right?
Did you mean you're at that part in life yourself who feels you have to settle for such a type of person? Or do you mean like a book you are reading? Im just wondering?
32.04 I think it's actually all male-female sexuality BAD as a theme. It's a particular reading (conscious or not) of the Adam-Eve trope without a full and profound understanding of that the theme, which emphasises the polluting or corrupting element of male-female sex.
Anakin seduces Padme - the result is that his fall to the Dark Side is accelerated and that he ends up becoming a symbol of living death and his own children have to be hidden from him.
Luke (in this canon) never marries and Leia's marriage not only falls apart but it creates the next Dark Lord.
I'll add that Poe has a thing going with Zori Bliss and yet this fails at the end - masculinity in a "correct" understanding is to be avoided by women.
The architectural symbols of masculinity are hard, cold, sharp and penetrating like daggers and there is no concept of masculinity as a shield, let alone as a creative force. Properly developed, masculinity in sex is strong (erect), bold (hot) and and life-giving (semen).
In mythology, the masculine conquers the feminine (the hero and chaos) and in doing so creates life. The vision presented in TROS is ultimately sterile, caught between the returning Empire (death) and the preserved Republic (perpetual childhood).
Don't have sex, kids!
Yes if you use the trope of masculine and feminin and them coming together in holy union (them being a dyad) the conclusion should have been a new life - a baby. Especially as they used all these sexual images in all 3 movies. And it would make sense that if you wanted to convey balance as the end goal, the Dark and the light, the Moon and the Sun, the male and the female should intergrate and both be important elements. But instead Rey ended up all alone in a desert ( bareland - no crops /fertility )with a droid. 🤔. What does that say?.
Really enjoyed your analysis of the sequel trilogy also I haven't heard from Lee on the episodes lately what happened to her?
She's busy, that's all! But she's doing well.
Thanks for the consideration in not asking me to watch TROS again.
But in all seriousness, if you're starved for ideas regarding Star Wars, might I suggest Jedi: Fallen Order? The stuff in that game is so up your alley that I think you'd have a grand time discussing it. The three main female characters are all fascinating and interesting and so well done, and they even touch on female sexuality as well. I'd love to hear you all talk about it.
I saw it and it's wonderful! Wish a caveat.
Spoiler
Spoiler for those who haven't seen it.
Tired of redemption followed by death. That said, her death was given the necessary weight.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast That broke me, too, especially since she was my favorite. But, though upsetting, I'm not outraged at it like I was with Ben's. It actually works here. I viewed it as the tragedy of refusing to let go of the past. And because it's You-Know-Who that hijacks the story at the end.
A great analysis on the trilogy.
Interesting question: do you think the story would have played out the same way if you swapped Kylo and Rey's genders?
If genders were swapped, he'd get his "bad girl" and nobody would bat an eyelash. But TLJ would be different. I guess male desires aren't as interesting, so the focus would need to be something different.
Hello there!
Thanks for the video!
26:00 disagree partially. In the end analysing all the movie, the meaning of this scene is Rey's desire to have a family and hints her adoption. 😩 It's like finn's "rey, I have to tell you something.." thing and we think while watching it woaah "He loves her". but in the end it's supposed to be about another thing. That's this scene too.
I think that scene is also about her need for a family. But it was about having a family, right, not ghosts and a last name. With Finn I think they wanted to leave it open ended. So many pieces of this movie were moved, changed, that it's hard to really pinpoint what the original meaning was.
TROS is the opposite of Toy Boy's soundtrack and Hogo Beltran's narrative at the beginning.
So glad you gals are still analyzing SW. For me, a huge and obvious phallic symbol throughout the sequels was Rey's staff. Phallic symbol discussion over, now, and moving on. I was very disappointed with the ending of TROS. I commented on another podcast before the movie came out that our newest Disney princess would have her prince by her side and surely not be left in the desert by herself gazing at a double sunset, and sadly, she was! I could accept just about everything in TROS had Ben not died and Rey not been left in the desert alone. I didn't necessarily want Rey pregnant with twins at the end, but I did want her and Ben together ready for the next adventure. Most importantly, I wanted the Skywalker's to have a happy ending; I wanted the tragedy of Padme and Anakin to be reversed, or for their heartbreak to be avenged with a heartfelt union of two like souls. Of all the SW movies, these sequels were the only ones that lacked passionate kisses and yet there was so much electricity between Rey and Kylo/Ben's characters. I am not counting that goodbye kiss at the end as a passionate kiss--it was not on the same level as Padme and Anakin's sweet kisses or Leia and Han's bold kisses. I am holding out hope that we will get 12 movies when it is all said and done. I read somewhere--can't recall book or magazine, I've read so much on SW--that Lucas originally planned for 12 installments. So my hope is that Ben is in the World Between Worlds and Rey will find him and bring him back. Perhaps she'll return to Ahch-To and retrieve Luke's compass, which will lead her there. (Like the compass in Pirate's of the Caribbean, it will lead you to what you most want.) In fact, speaking of Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, we've had 3 characters come back from the dead--Captain Barbossa, Captain Jack Sparrow, and Davy Jones, so it's entirely possible to bring back Ben Solo! In addition to hoping for a continuation of Rey and Ben's storyline, I am also hoping for a female director and writer to give us, and Rey & Ben, the storyline they deserve.
Rey's staff... Absolutely, I never paid attention to its tip. Now I think it's more likely that they would bring Ben back in cartoons. If we think about the amazing job done in The Clone Wars, I think it could be an amazing idea. For movies I think it would be tricky to get Adam Driver again, and by the time they decide to do it, they might have aged too much. But we'll see.
virginity as a commodity is highly over rated. If you want to see a well rounded woman...it was Natasha in the Avengers.
I'm not expecting anyone to read this and it probably won't relate to the video in all likelihood but I'll try to keep it short.
I know it's been a while since I've commented here and I used to comment a lot and leave two or three or four at a time on the same day. But don't think it's because I don't care it's not that at all in all honesty it's because I genuinely feel very bad and I don't really like the state on how a lot of us in this part of the fandom have felt since TROS the whole thing erupted into a category five tornado out of nowhere the day after the premiere. It was so out of nowhere and just weird. It all felt weird to me but I still made it a point to see the movie and let me go through whatever I needed to go through emotionally and done it several more times. As unsettling as a lot of it was I have to say Post TROS times have and I mentioned this a number of times in the GWS videos and live streams but in all honestly I actually feel more confident or more compelled to want to be confidant and hopeful but be more cautious and it's because I care...I still care about "Star Wars" enough to want to see it improve for the better. I think it had to fall apart in order for it to be a learning experience and a lesson. I care for the characters to want to have better things for them and it's something if given time and organization that's not fixated on making a date that can happen. All these TV shows like Mandalorian and Clone Wars are what can make "Star Wars" stronger and better going forward even the planning going into the Obi Wan series and Cassian Andor it seems like they want to try to learn from the other shows in my opinion. Despite my own issues I've had with TROS and with the sequel trilogy I still love it very much , and it's changed my life and I've met or spoken to and watch great people in the fandom and the Reylo community that put out incredible content including you. I just only wish we were as happy as we were a year ago or even two years ago. I don't like seeing any of you upset or genuinely disappointed and I want to let all of you to heal for that. We're probably still going to spend a lot of time looking back from a year and by the time we get to December it might hurt all over again. However I think we have already gotten through the worst the beginning of this year was extremely brutal , it's still brutal but I think this part of our fandom has never felt more united and passionate. This is the most passionate we've been because we care and that's good. I know there will come a time where we feel how we were in 2019 and 2018 but we all got to be strong and not give up no matter what. I never will. I'll never give up on Ben or Rey, I'll never give up on this Dyad. But even more important I'll never give up on this fandom I'll never give up believing that we will be happy again and when we get past a lot of the bullshit that's been going on currently and that we get through most of the aftermath of Covid-19 and living our lives slightly differently but when that's over or we move on from that things could be better. We'll see. I know this was very long and I don't know if it will be read honestly and I know it's not relevant to the video but I really had a lot to say and I wanted to put it out there. Thank you.
My girls are back - can't wait to listen to this 💜💜
I think they wanted to turn Rey into a copy of Luke. The female sexuality in the sequel is something to be rejected, but the most beloved hero of this saga is practically a celibate priest - Luke who conquered his sexual urges by defeating the "shit monster with a toothed vagina" Jabba The Hut. Canonically Luke is a saint so rey should also be for the public to like her. Star Wars was sexist in the sequel but throughout the saga we see that sex is treated as something punishable by death even for non-jedi- Anakin falls on the dark side and loses padmé, han and Leia die and the son falls to the dark side, Rey loses Ben. Luke didn't have sex, but was punished by his nephew's fall into the shadowy area (breaking a pattern). But he returned to being "hero" in the nine. Star Wars in general is not just a sexist franchise with women, but it praises chastity on a sick level.
Hello ladies Great video as always. Tros was terrible (broke my heart) I still believe in my heart that Ben Solo will return in some manner!
For sure! The question is when they'll wake up. I think it will still take some 5 years.
stress eating while watching this lol.
What if Ben Solo would have been the hero and had to redeem Rey Palpatine? Really makes me think. The message they are transporting - intended or not - is a shame. Neither do they appreciate Rey as a character nor the concept and meaning of hope in the Star Wars universe. As always, I really enjoyed your video :)
41.15 Snake in a cave as a metaphor for coitus? The live, thrashing snake soothed and calmed by the feminine presence (who is dressed in white... tehe). The snake goes back to sleep... :P
Not sure but she's suggestive. Rey is not afraid of large snakes.
ruclips.net/video/po0B2Xa4SGc/видео.html, Kylo was on several occassion compared to a snake. From the first moment he took his mask of in TFA you hear a hissing snake sound.
Ladies So Mark Hamill was not supposed to be in Tros?
He was, but his scene was different. It's a pity, really. The part we got with him as a bad-looking wig and isn't that great. I wonder what was there before.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Ladies - Mark's scene was terrible! I felt bad for all the main actors in this movie (more so for lack of Rose and Hux)
@@paulineharvey5916 it was... And he's such an amazing person and a great actor...
No one fought harder to preserve her virginity than Rey.....my fave fantasy character is Natasha.
I feel like they didn't give Rey much of a personality. Again just projecting their own desires on her rather than just letting her be her own unique character.
Mary and Denise
Why are female characters always automatically associated with their sexuality?
This doesn't happen with "Leading Men."
Nobody made videos about Luke getting a "phallic symbol" lightsaber from Obi-wan lol why is there suddenly subliminal or underlying meanings and symbolism when the character is a Woman?
I think you guys are reading a little too much in to it HAHAHA overanalyzing anything can get someone from "Space Nuns" to "Repressed Sexuality." 🤣
Because Luke's central relationship was not a romantic one. Rey's central relationship was her romantic connection with Ben Solo. So sexuality is inherent in her story.
And it's not true that the lightsaber was never read as a phallus before the ST. It's actually a very common reading of this motif, and there is a ton of sexual imagery in the prequels, as well (which also had the main character in a central romance).
Sex has always been a part of the Skywalker Saga, it's just that Leia carried the bulk of that theme in the OT rather than Luke.
How Roode The connection between Ben and Rey wasn’t romantic
Yes it was? They were a dyad, a concept inspired by Campbell’s idea of soulmate and romantic parter. Rian Johnson said the hand touch scene is meant to symbolize a sex scene. Even in TFA JJ said this would be the main romance of the ST. The connection was romantic, get over it.
44.27 Agree with Mary about disliking the CT idea of DamRey - for starters, she's meant to be 20 and you can see that Oscar Isaac is 40. Not to mention that there had been very little build-up towards such a relationship developing.
I'll be honest. I think the age difference is big but some people like it, so fine. The issue is that it's not what she wants and it's not the plot of the ST. The main plot is about Rey and Kylo coming together. If you throw Poe as a LI, what is left of your ST?
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast which does then tend to make one wonder about the hand (or lack of it) on the helm at LSG.
@@Wien1938 yes. I think KK was overruled. There's a thread in Saltier than Crait stating as much, but they get many things wrong, such as stating that Disney forced the Reylo kiss in and that JJ didn't want it. Again, he obviously sounded excited talking about Rey and Kylo's connection and saying that there would be a kiss in TROS, so it's unlikely. But back to the point, the story is that Iger took over. We know that the story group was cast aside, too. So yes, maybe we blame LF for something they had no say on. They still should be treating us better, though.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast that makes sense.
Trol
Slight disagreement on Luke & Mara - it takes five books for them to end up together and ten or fifteen years in canon time. Also, Luke and Mara help each other grow, which is something that happens in TLJ but not in TROS.
But it should have happened in TROS. The point is that nobody is saying that Mara doesn't deserve Luke or that Luke will inspire little boys to enter abusive relationships. And of course books can better develop a story.
"Good girls don't."
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Apache Helicopter I love this guy. No homo.
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Reylo sucks, factually speaking. Everyone ships reylo because they want to place themselves in Rey’s shoes so they can date Kylo Ren not realizing that if someone like Kylo Ren existed in real life they’d end up dead. I’ll never understand the fetishizing of horrible people as not just quilts pleasures but actual romanized partners. Sure who wouldn’t want to date Draco who thinks everyone else is inferior to him and throws offensive slurs to anyone he wishes. Sure, who wouldn’t want to date people okay with murder and chaos and probably would either slaughter or belittle or manipulate the people who view them as precious cinnamon rolls that have done no wrong and must be protected. What a wonderful lesson, treating your crush like shit is the best way to make them fall for you.
Stop with the nice guy complex, my dude. It’s fiction and character’s actions aren’t meant have the same weight as our real actions. That’s why Luke never bashed an eye for murdering countless people in the Death Star. Surprise! It’s fake, exaggerated, unrealistic and in space. You wouldn’t say that if it was the other way around, with a hot bad girl in love with a good guy (like Luke and Mara Jade). You’re just jealous Kylo is way more appealing to female audience than any “nice guys” you’d like to self insert into because you think you’re entitled to them. Just say you’re sad girls prefer characters like him instead of the ones you think are “deserving” of the heroine while ignoring her desires and go watch your typical “boring hero gets the girl” male gazey crap.
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The only good scene with Ben is the scene after he kisses Rey.
They gave into the misogynists and the toxicity that is Reylo
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