I believe it was a mistake to cut out Padme's secret senate meetings. Doing so gutted her character. Padme had always been the symbol of rebellion and justice. In keeping those scenes and her characterization, her death could have been paralleled to the downfall of the republic. She was the phoenix. Although she falls with the republic, her children and the rebellion will rise in her place to restore peace.
Yes! When Mary says she hates when people call Poe the son Leia deserved, I felt that. Sorry, but that framing is not gonna work for me. Ben/Kylo is exactly the son she deserved for exactly the kind of parenting and parenting choices she and Han made. She prioritized her work/passion over her child even though she felt there was a predatory presence around him, lied to him about his heritage/legacy, then sent him away when he became too difficult to deal with... so no, she does not deserve a perfect relationship with her son. I love Leia, but she and Han failed Ben and somehow making the fact that he was traumatized and subsequently fell to the darkness because of the conflict, chaos, and turmoil of his childhood his failing as a son makes me absolutely livid. Let's frame this in another way... if a mother is an active member of her community, volunteers, donates, yada yada yada, generally a good person, but then beat her son and kicked him out when he was 10, would anyone be shocked if that child turned to substance abuse to escape and/or cope with that trauma? Worse yet, would anyone blame him for not being a better son or bestow the title of son his mother deserved on the neighbor kid who the mom did not beat?
I'll go to my grave believing that if Carrie lived she would have gotten right up in Bob Iger's, J. J.'s, Kathleen's, or whoever's face, and flat out say: "You're not killing Ben." And if they tried giving her any flack Carrie would just point out that she is THE Star Wars princess, and that Leia's son is going to live.
Growing up with the Prequel Series has made me admire Padame's character (Especially in Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones) for her bravery and beliefs in helping others. Even though I really like Revenge of the Sith, it totally toned down those two qualities I loved and having her die because of "a broken heart?" made no sense to me. There was a theory that Palpatine was somehow involved with her death by using the force to kill her after giving birth. Even though that itself is a little far fetched, it still would have been better than Padame leaving her children due to a broken heart. Even more, Darth Vader turning to the Dark side and serving Palpatine, the man who killed his beloved wife, would make it even more tragic.
I’ve been thinking about my disappointment in Star Wars the last few days and totally thought about how much Star Wars hates mothers. Perfect timing for this video!
I've actually heard some people theorise that Leia could've had Force Visions of Padme, It's possible that Bail Organa could've told her about her parentage as well at some point. Pablo Hidalgo even thought that the theory of Sideous killing Padme was plausible.
I couldn't agree with you more when it comes to endings. I too found happy endings to be a bit cheesy when I was younger, but now I crave a beautiful, resolved and a happy ending! I would like to add that Lyra ( unsure if I spelled her name correctly ) from Rogue one died kinda abruptly. I would think she would have hid herself to protect Jyn , not get herself killed "for the cause ". In Rebels, Sabine Wren's mother had a interesting arc. She had her own little redemption moment.
OMG, we forgot Lyra! And I agree that a mother would have a greater sense of self-preservation, something the writers didn't really get. Sabine Wren's mother is a cool example.
11:54 i can understand why that's uncomfortable, but let's be real. Cliegg Lars wasn't abusing her, he more or less needed someone to care for him and his disability. its fucked up but historically this is what humans have done to each other and still do. sex trafficking, forced marriage, a lot of this still happens. would Shmi have gone with Cliegg willingly if it meant freedom from slavery? who knows. but i don't think Cliegg is bad, the system is bad
Considering Ben murdered a bunch of people I totally get why she’d act cold to him. Especially after Ben killed her husband. I’m surprised she wasn’t furious at him, he betrayed his family. I feel her acting as a sort of mother for Rey was Leia making a classic roast. “Oh, you don’t want to be known as a Solo anymore? That’s okay. I’ll just be the mother of your crush since you don’t want me as your mother anymore.”
Bakasta She gave up on him from the beginning. She didn’t give him a chance. You should encourage your child believe in him and stand by him and don’t send him away and make him feel unwanted.
Episode 9 discredited Leia as a mother, but all this is presented as a tribute to Leia, the memory of Carrie Fisher. Very strong skew in episode 9 towards Rey, although this is like the ending of the Skywalkers saga, but they are sidekicks there for Rey. Therefore, the storyline of Leia, Kylo and Luke suffers greatly. This cannot be justified by the absence of Fisher, because technically they did everything possible to translate their ideas into this film. Therefore, the conclusion - to push Skywalkers into the background - was the original idea. Not a single scene with Kylo and Leia, although Leia plays one of the key role in the redemption of Kylo, there are simply no joint theirs scenes in the form of a force bond between mother and son. But there are a thousand hugs of Leia and Rey, mourning Poe over Leia's body. Everything is there, only the Skywalkers did not receive the attention of the authors of the film.
Thank you ladies! Also can I ask for your opinion. In the TROS novelization Leia is mentioning “the night of Ben’s betrayal” meaning the night when Luke had a moment and the temple got destroyed allegedly by Ben. Does it mean that Leia never learned the truth of what happened that night? Rey did know that Luke tried to kill him but didn’t say anything; Leia had conversations with Luke via force in TROS novel but he didn’t mention her what pushed Ben over the edge? I am having a hard time of letting this one go...
It wasn't shown in the movie and apparently Leia never learned what happened. Sad, right? It's the kind of scene that writes itself if she were to learn what happened.
Yes, that line in the novel really stuck in my craw when I read it. Luke's betrayal of Ben precipitated the whole thing. I mean, why do you come and stand over someone when they are sleeping anyway? Why not have a heart to heart talk when they are awake? I thought for sure Luke would've confessed to Leia what really happened.
Great discussion, I just finished Cruel Beauty I really enjoy it. I would love to hear more recommendations from you guys in the future. I'm in the mood for more happy endings.
If TROS was a video game it would be the neutral ending. Bad ending - Rey ends up with Ben Neutral ending - Rey kisses Ben but Ben dies True ending - Rey ends up with Finn
"Why would you do this to Leia?" Exactly. Preach. Yes. I hate it so much. And I didn't know Jacen's daughter was also taken from her mother.... ugh, that makes me so angry.
Also, I really think that Poe should have died in TFA as originally planned. I'm not trying to bash Oscar Issac, I think he really did his best with what he was given, and I can't wait to see him in Dune this December. But having a fourth main character ended up being one too many for the writers to handle, and if he hadn't been in TLJ we would have have more time with the Rey&Ben and Finn&Rose scenes, Canto Bight could have gotten fleshed out more, and poor Kelly might give gotten better received by the average fanbase. Also, we wouldn't have had that damned PoeRey ship🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦 And again in TROS he ended up taking much needed time away from the rest of the cast. Maybe we could have gotten some scenes of Rey and Rose, which would have been great. But in the end, I'm no screen writer, this is just what I've come to after the ST.
Haha, even Oscar regrets not letting them kill his character. But on the upside, he's a popular, charismatic character played by a Hispanic actor... I just think they shouldn't have given him so much screentime.
It be nice if Rey goes to motherhood, but I guess she staying like a child, never experienced to be a mom to her future child with Ben, it could be interested to see Rey go throw that what is feels like and make up for it what Padmé never been one too, but I guess Star Wars don’t want to see Rey to grow up as a woman.
It always has griped me how Padme was handled in Revenge of the Sith. I know she had to die, but to me she would've gone down fighting, maybe trying to protect her children, or fighting for the principles she always believed in. Not, "Oh, I just gave birth to two beautiful babies, but I just can't find the will to live because my man turned evil." I like your idea of her living for a couple of years with Leia and then maybe she died fighting with the Rebels. The only thing about that is I"m not sure why Luke had to be taken away.
Only 22 minutes in, but I wanted to comment. I think that Padme being a mother figure for Anakin is there because of the the trilogies' clear interest in the Oedipal myth. The OT has Luke wanting to be his father, to take his place (becoming a Jedi), and wanting to kill his father. You even have him being adopted and fighting his father unknowingly like the myth. Then in the PT, you have Anakin's desire for his mother, to love her, keep her to himself while the father figure (the Jedi) keeps them apart. He also wants to marry the mother (Padme). It's interesting that his anxieties with losing her surface at the moment where she becomes pregnant, implying that metaphorically he is afraid of sharing the mother with another. Then in the sequel, we have the same desire to become the father in Ben with both Han and Vader, but also the desire to kill him and take his place (Han, Luke, and Snoke). The relationship with the mother was sadly mostly left unexplored because of Carrie's passing, but my guess, we would have seen some of the same theme emerging as the PT, with Ben's desire to have his mother to himself and not to share her with the Republic/Resistance that spreads to wanting Rey in a similar selfish childlike way, for her to be all his, to have all of her focus and love without sharing her with the Resistance. Side note, my great-great-grandmother Julie died of a broken heart according to family legends. After learning that her husband had been killed during WWI, she lost the will to live, leaving her two sons alone in the middle of a war. The doubly tragic thing being that my great-great-grandfather had in fact been captured by the Germans and was being held prisoner in a castle in the middle of the town, a short fifteen minutes walk from Julie's home. He was alive and so very close, but she died thinking he was gone. They never got to see each other again.
Yes, I think the PT does fit in with Oedipal myth. The ST, too, right? Great analysis. Oh, that's such a sad story about your great-great-grandmother! I agree people can die of a broken heart. Debbie Reynolds died one or two days after Carrie's passing, and that's just an example. I just find that mothers tend to have an extra resilience because of their children, and Padme was such an idealistic young woman, such a fighter...
To me, the treatment of female characters, particularly Leia, was the true tragedy of Star Wars. They should have gone more in depth with Ben and showed the audience how and why he fell into darkness. It would have strengthened our feeling for Leia's suffering and guilt concerning her son. There was not enough "showing" or sharing with audience of the factors/demons driving Ben or Rey and the films are poorer for it. Motherhood is not valued the same way in Star Wars as fatherhood. Anakin's sacrifice is enough to redeem him but what is Leia's sacrifice for her son worth? We're not quite sure as the audience (because no one is clear about what really happened to Ben...and by the way what was his sacrifice worth?) and it is a damn shame. It is left to Han (the father)to redeem Ben. Leia should have had a greater hand in it. The sequel trilogy did not need Rey to be everything, they already had a great female hero in Leia. They should have balanced the female leads better and they could have used the footage of her to make a much more interesting story, particularly in her relationship with Ben . Men need to learn how to write better for female characters in their films. Women physically fighting and acting like men does not equal a strong female character. I honestly found this film so...empty on an emotional level. There were a couple good scenes, but nowhere near the emotional impact it should have possessed for the close of the Skywalker saga.
Hello ladies Tros has so many faults Terribly written All the characters were poorly done by. I could go on and on how bad this movie was Why did nobody at Disney stop this travesty!
Because Bob Iger wanted one last fat paycheck before retiring, and thought he could get it by appeasing as many in the audience as possible, and as a result no one was pleased.
Sorry guys, but I would not like Leya to be my mum and Luke my uncle as they fail on Ben on the numerous occacions especially in the end. She gave up her own son easily. And the force ghosts in the end...my God....
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast As much as I loved Rey, I wish her character had been given more depth and personality, rather than just the female version of Luke.
I believe it was a mistake to cut out Padme's secret senate meetings. Doing so gutted her character. Padme had always been the symbol of rebellion and justice. In keeping those scenes and her characterization, her death could have been paralleled to the downfall of the republic. She was the phoenix. Although she falls with the republic, her children and the rebellion will rise in her place to restore peace.
Yes, it's unfortunate that it was cut. It's almost as if Lucas only considered her role in Anakin's arc, not her arc as a character.
Yes! When Mary says she hates when people call Poe the son Leia deserved, I felt that. Sorry, but that framing is not gonna work for me. Ben/Kylo is exactly the son she deserved for exactly the kind of parenting and parenting choices she and Han made. She prioritized her work/passion over her child even though she felt there was a predatory presence around him, lied to him about his heritage/legacy, then sent him away when he became too difficult to deal with... so no, she does not deserve a perfect relationship with her son. I love Leia, but she and Han failed Ben and somehow making the fact that he was traumatized and subsequently fell to the darkness because of the conflict, chaos, and turmoil of his childhood his failing as a son makes me absolutely livid. Let's frame this in another way... if a mother is an active member of her community, volunteers, donates, yada yada yada, generally a good person, but then beat her son and kicked him out when he was 10, would anyone be shocked if that child turned to substance abuse to escape and/or cope with that trauma? Worse yet, would anyone blame him for not being a better son or bestow the title of son his mother deserved on the neighbor kid who the mom did not beat?
I'll go to my grave believing that if Carrie lived she would have gotten right up in Bob Iger's, J. J.'s, Kathleen's, or whoever's face, and flat out say: "You're not killing Ben." And if they tried giving her any flack Carrie would just point out that she is THE Star Wars princess, and that Leia's son is going to live.
Growing up with the Prequel Series has made me admire Padame's character (Especially in Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones) for her bravery and beliefs in helping others. Even though I really like Revenge of the Sith, it totally toned down those two qualities I loved and having her die because of "a broken heart?" made no sense to me. There was a theory that Palpatine was somehow involved with her death by using the force to kill her after giving birth. Even though that itself is a little far fetched, it still would have been better than Padame leaving her children due to a broken heart. Even more, Darth Vader turning to the Dark side and serving Palpatine, the man who killed his beloved wife, would make it even more tragic.
I’ve been thinking about my disappointment in Star Wars the last few days and totally thought about how much Star Wars hates mothers. Perfect timing for this video!
stupidusername hopefully it’s just a phase.
Ba Bum Sha!
Also crossing my fingers for Omera in The Mandalorian to not have a tragic ending... Great job with the video!
I've actually heard some people theorise that Leia could've had Force Visions of Padme, It's possible that Bail Organa could've told her about her parentage as well at some point.
Pablo Hidalgo even thought that the theory of Sideous killing Padme was plausible.
I couldn't agree with you more when it comes to endings. I too found happy endings to be a bit cheesy when I was younger, but now I crave a beautiful, resolved and a happy ending! I would like to add that Lyra ( unsure if I spelled her name correctly ) from Rogue one died kinda abruptly. I would think she would have hid herself to protect Jyn , not get herself killed "for the cause ". In Rebels, Sabine Wren's mother had a interesting arc. She had her own little redemption moment.
OMG, we forgot Lyra! And I agree that a mother would have a greater sense of self-preservation, something the writers didn't really get. Sabine Wren's mother is a cool example.
11:54 i can understand why that's uncomfortable, but let's be real. Cliegg Lars wasn't abusing her, he more or less needed someone to care for him and his disability. its fucked up but historically this is what humans have done to each other and still do. sex trafficking, forced marriage, a lot of this still happens. would Shmi have gone with Cliegg willingly if it meant freedom from slavery? who knows. but i don't think Cliegg is bad, the system is bad
As a mother i will never ever understand how cold was Leia towards her son. So dissapointed..
Considering Ben murdered a bunch of people I totally get why she’d act cold to him. Especially after Ben killed her husband. I’m surprised she wasn’t furious at him, he betrayed his family. I feel her acting as a sort of mother for Rey was Leia making a classic roast. “Oh, you don’t want to be known as a Solo anymore? That’s okay. I’ll just be the mother of your crush since you don’t want me as your mother anymore.”
Bakasta She gave up on him from the beginning. She didn’t give him a chance.
You should encourage your child believe in him and stand by him and don’t send him away and make him feel unwanted.
Same. I can't stand it that they did that to her.
Let the mothers survive, dlf
Episode 9 discredited Leia as a mother, but all this is presented as a tribute to Leia, the memory of Carrie Fisher. Very strong skew in episode 9 towards Rey, although this is like the ending of the Skywalkers saga, but they are sidekicks there for Rey. Therefore, the storyline of Leia, Kylo and Luke suffers greatly. This cannot be justified by the absence of Fisher, because technically they did everything possible to translate their ideas into this film. Therefore, the conclusion - to push Skywalkers into the background - was the original idea.
Not a single scene with Kylo and Leia, although Leia plays one of the key role in the redemption of Kylo, there are simply no joint theirs
scenes in the form of a force bond between mother and son. But there are a thousand hugs of Leia and Rey, mourning Poe over Leia's body. Everything is there, only the Skywalkers did not receive the attention of the authors of the film.
Yeah, it's so odd, right? I mean, I like Rey, but she was supposed to be adding to the Skywalker saga, not replacing it.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I also hate that they made her a Palpatine because it takes away her agency as character.
Thank you ladies! Also can I ask for your opinion. In the TROS novelization Leia is mentioning “the night of Ben’s betrayal” meaning the night when Luke had a moment and the temple got destroyed allegedly by Ben.
Does it mean that Leia never learned the truth of what happened that night? Rey did know that Luke tried to kill him but didn’t say anything; Leia had conversations with Luke via force in TROS novel but he didn’t mention her what pushed Ben over the edge? I am having a hard time of letting this one go...
It wasn't shown in the movie and apparently Leia never learned what happened. Sad, right? It's the kind of scene that writes itself if she were to learn what happened.
Yes, that line in the novel really stuck in my craw when I read it. Luke's betrayal of Ben precipitated the whole thing. I mean, why do you come and stand over someone when they are sleeping anyway? Why not have a heart to heart talk when they are awake? I thought for sure Luke would've confessed to Leia what really happened.
Love the image of Carrie giving the finger. 😈
Great discussion, I just finished Cruel Beauty I really enjoy it. I would love to hear more recommendations from you guys in the future. I'm in the mood for more happy endings.
I think we'll do more of them because the previous video did really well! Super glad you enjoyed Cruel Beauty!
If TROS was a video game it would be the neutral ending.
Bad ending - Rey ends up with Ben
Neutral ending - Rey kisses Ben but Ben dies
True ending - Rey ends up with Finn
"Why would you do this to Leia?" Exactly. Preach. Yes. I hate it so much.
And I didn't know Jacen's daughter was also taken from her mother.... ugh, that makes me so angry.
Also, I really think that Poe should have died in TFA as originally planned. I'm not trying to bash Oscar Issac, I think he really did his best with what he was given, and I can't wait to see him in Dune this December. But having a fourth main character ended up being one too many for the writers to handle, and if he hadn't been in TLJ we would have have more time with the Rey&Ben and Finn&Rose scenes, Canto Bight could have gotten fleshed out more, and poor Kelly might give gotten better received by the average fanbase. Also, we wouldn't have had that damned PoeRey ship🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦 And again in TROS he ended up taking much needed time away from the rest of the cast. Maybe we could have gotten some scenes of Rey and Rose, which would have been great. But in the end, I'm no screen writer, this is just what I've come to after the ST.
Haha, even Oscar regrets not letting them kill his character. But on the upside, he's a popular, charismatic character played by a Hispanic actor... I just think they shouldn't have given him so much screentime.
Hell no, cut the Rey and Ben scenes in half and add in Rey and Finn scenes!
Just before, I was looking for hotel in Skopelos. And I sang: Mama mia, here I go again...
It be nice if Rey goes to motherhood, but I guess she staying like a child, never experienced to be a mom to her future child with Ben, it could be interested to see Rey go throw that what is feels like and make up for it what Padmé never been one too, but I guess Star Wars don’t want to see Rey to grow up as a woman.
Blanca Salazar she’ll be a mother, it’s just that her child will also be Finn’s ;)
It always has griped me how Padme was handled in Revenge of the Sith. I know she had to die, but to me she would've gone down fighting, maybe trying to protect her children, or fighting for the principles she always believed in. Not, "Oh, I just gave birth to two beautiful babies, but I just can't find the will to live because my man turned evil." I like your idea of her living for a couple of years with Leia and then maybe she died fighting with the Rebels. The only thing about that is I"m not sure why Luke had to be taken away.
Only 22 minutes in, but I wanted to comment. I think that Padme being a mother figure for Anakin is there because of the the trilogies' clear interest in the Oedipal myth. The OT has Luke wanting to be his father, to take his place (becoming a Jedi), and wanting to kill his father. You even have him being adopted and fighting his father unknowingly like the myth. Then in the PT, you have Anakin's desire for his mother, to love her, keep her to himself while the father figure (the Jedi) keeps them apart. He also wants to marry the mother (Padme). It's interesting that his anxieties with losing her surface at the moment where she becomes pregnant, implying that metaphorically he is afraid of sharing the mother with another. Then in the sequel, we have the same desire to become the father in Ben with both Han and Vader, but also the desire to kill him and take his place (Han, Luke, and Snoke). The relationship with the mother was sadly mostly left unexplored because of Carrie's passing, but my guess, we would have seen some of the same theme emerging as the PT, with Ben's desire to have his mother to himself and not to share her with the Republic/Resistance that spreads to wanting Rey in a similar selfish childlike way, for her to be all his, to have all of her focus and love without sharing her with the Resistance.
Side note, my great-great-grandmother Julie died of a broken heart according to family legends. After learning that her husband had been killed during WWI, she lost the will to live, leaving her two sons alone in the middle of a war. The doubly tragic thing being that my great-great-grandfather had in fact been captured by the Germans and was being held prisoner in a castle in the middle of the town, a short fifteen minutes walk from Julie's home. He was alive and so very close, but she died thinking he was gone. They never got to see each other again.
Yes, I think the PT does fit in with Oedipal myth. The ST, too, right? Great analysis.
Oh, that's such a sad story about your great-great-grandmother! I agree people can die of a broken heart. Debbie Reynolds died one or two days after Carrie's passing, and that's just an example. I just find that mothers tend to have an extra resilience because of their children, and Padme was such an idealistic young woman, such a fighter...
To me, the treatment of female characters, particularly Leia, was the true tragedy of Star Wars. They should have gone more in depth with Ben and showed the audience how and why he fell into darkness. It would have strengthened our feeling for Leia's suffering and guilt concerning her son. There was not enough "showing" or sharing with audience of the factors/demons driving Ben or Rey and the films are poorer for it. Motherhood is not valued the same way in Star Wars as fatherhood. Anakin's sacrifice is enough to redeem him but what is Leia's sacrifice for her son worth? We're not quite sure as the audience (because no one is clear about what really happened to Ben...and by the way what was his sacrifice worth?) and it is a damn shame. It is left to Han (the father)to redeem Ben. Leia should have had a greater hand in it. The sequel trilogy did not need Rey to be everything, they already had a great female hero in Leia. They should have balanced the female leads better and they could have used the footage of her to make a much more interesting story, particularly in her relationship with Ben . Men need to learn how to write better for female characters in their films. Women physically fighting and acting like men does not equal a strong female character. I honestly found this film so...empty on an emotional level. There were a couple good scenes, but nowhere near the emotional impact it should have possessed for the close of the Skywalker saga.
Hello there!
Hello ladies Tros has so many faults Terribly written All the characters were poorly done by. I could go on and on how bad this movie was Why did nobody at Disney stop this travesty!
Because Bob Iger wanted one last fat paycheck before retiring, and thought he could get it by appeasing as many in the audience as possible, and as a result no one was pleased.
Palpatine killed her.
Whoops. Something’s wrong. That’s better, fixed now..
Try again. It should work now.
Lords of the Sith Podcast It’s good!
Sorry guys, but I would not like Leya to be my mum and Luke my uncle as they fail on Ben on the numerous occacions especially in the end. She gave up her own son easily. And the force ghosts in the end...my God....
Yeah, she sequel trilogy wasn't too kind to them, and TROS butchered their characters.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast As much as I loved Rey, I wish her character had been given more depth and personality, rather than just the female version of Luke.