What happened to Episode IX? Trevorrow's script and the Artbook shed some answers.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- In this episode, Mary and Denise discuss the production of Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker and why there are signs that many changes happened in it, especially in Colin Trevorrow's version, the leaked Artbook, and interviews with Chris Terrio and more cast and crew.
We start by discussing Colin Trevorrow's treatment for Episode IX, what we can learn from it, what was carried to JJ and Terrio's movie, and what it means for the story and for the trilogy.
We then discuss a recently leaked Artbook that was released in Korea, with some important information missing! By the way, since we recorded it, the artbook has been called back and is no longer for sale.
We also take some hints from the leaks, which seem more and more reliable by now, and try to trace what happened to Episode IX and how Lucasfilm arrived at its final product.
Finally, we look at some cast and crew interviews for more hints about the production of Episode IX.
Sources:
Artbook: imgur.com/a/qj... The original tweets with the content have been deleted.
Colin Trevorrow's draft, called "Duel of the Fates" / robert_meyer_burnett_r...
Leaks:
/ details_on_kylo_ren_an...
/ the_basic_plot_of_epis...
/ the_rise_of_skywalker_...
RETURN OF THE JEDI ENDING EDITED LIKE THE RISE OF SKYWALKER: / 1216026686246019073
CHRIS TERRIO'S INTERVIEWS
www.hollywoodr...
www.gq.com/sto...
SPEAKERS: Mary and Denise
AUDIO EDITING: Denise
VIDEO EDITING: Mary
MUSIC:
Intro:
Loyalty Freak music - Extra Metal
freemusicarchiv...
Outro:
Stellardrone - Fermi Paradox
stellardrone.b...
CONTACT:
EMAIL: lordsofthesith.podcast@gmail.com
TUMBLR: / lordsofthesithpodcast
TWITTER: / lordsithpodcast
FACEBOOK: / lordsithpodcast
INSTAGRAM: / lordsofthesith.podcast
You can listen to our episodes at:
SOUNDCLOUD:
/ lordsofthesithpodcast
ITUNES:
itunes.apple.c...
Episodes 7-9 are such a waste of a compelling character in Kylo/Ben and a possible epic love story for the ages. Disney Princesses have never inspired me but this could have been on a Jane Austen level. What does it say about our culture that "we" turn away from redeeming love for shallow justice?
Audrey Cermak 😭😭😭
Absolutely, it really was an epic love story ♥️♥️
The thing is our "culture" is steeped in rabid third-wave Feminism right now and alot of social justice and political correctness. One example is how JJ and Kennedy cast the actors in the Disney Trilogy. I dont know what you may think of this but it is a fact the actor Jessica Henwick auditioned for the main role of Rey in TFA and was dropped, in favor of Daisy Ridley. Now Henwick is a talented actress, she can do action (as proven in Iron Fist), here was a chance for Disney to go all the way and prove just how "diverse" they truly are.
Finn a defecting storm trooper who is possibly force sensitive, yet completely wasted, nothing is explored in his character. Does he grow at all? All we see is him running round chasing Rey, shouting after her, i mean he does the exact same thing in TROS on the Death Star II wreckage.
The movie is a desecration of the Skywalkers...plain and simple. Thank you girls for all you do. 😊
What makes me laugh is JJ spluttering over what Rey and kylo are to each other. Rey could have given Ben a big brotherly hug after he was redeemed but she didn't, she gave him a look of love and pure joy then gave him a massive kiss on the lips..those kind of jj' comments are frustrating, he just wants to keep everything ambiguous to not upset fans who don't like reylo...
Exactly. And that's the issue... Not committing to a story. Had they wanted to do a story about siblings, it could have been cool too, but they should have commited to it from the beginning.
Mary you are my angel👼 The review you did on TROS . OMG. I was like my words but your voice. Lee and Denise I love you too ♥️
I don’t think I’m ever going to not be mad about this. It’s just ridiculous how these people get paid so much , and they can’t even tell a coherent story.
At end of the day this is HOLLYWOOD for you. Disney is a "Corporation", when corporations buy IPs they're motivation is to sell that IP to the masses, corporations dont have "talent", or imagination, or even a vision. They see everything from a business angle, thier mentality is "oh how can we spin this to maximize our profit?" That is all they care about.
Money Talks is the old saying, and Disney, Kathleen Kennedy saw that director JJ. Abrams made alot of money for Paramount back in 2009 with his "Star Trek" reboot, and pissed off alot of those fans because the movie broke so much Trek lore.
But she wasnt focused on that she just saw the figures he made and thought he would be a great choice to make New Star Wars movies to sell to the masses. Us passionate fans (some may call hardcore fans), they're not bothered about, all you girls who came into it from 2015, they only care about at the time because the way they see it, it adds to their rep, being in this #metoo era we're in today right now.
Then Disney play to the diversity, and even LGBTQ audience, every and any demographic, as many as possible they can get to flock to see their money, it all generates them "maximum profit". Thats how they work.
They will never change and while there is a mainstream audience out there to lap this stuff up, things will carry on the same.
Such a good episode. Thank you ladies for making me feel less alone/like a crazy person for feeling hurt and disappointed by this film!! :(
You are not alone ♡
I agree that there is no “JJ cut” of the film but I think that the digital copy for the dvd and Disney + will need to be cleaned up some or it could easily become the laughing stock of the entire saga. Can you imagine how many fan re-edits there will be to try and fix the plot and character moments? The current version’s editing is so jarring and characters’ musical scores play over scenes that don’t fit, don’t make sense. I just have felt so betrayed and disgusted with TROS. I looked forward to this movie and want, even now, so much to like it, but I’m not sure if I will ever be able to accept it. It suffered from both internal and external variables that were allowed to shape the film by the creatives. I’m sad that JJ and CT didn’t consult Lucasfilm story group. It’s insane!! Thanks for your podcast. Listening to others who had issues with the film is helping me work through my disappointment. 🌈💖😃
OK, I'm glad you liked our not-so-positive episode. You're right that there are editing issues besides story issues. We can't really comment on the editing because we'd need to analyze the movie more closely... But it's something to note, for sure, but I think it speaks to the constant changes and last-minute changes.
I agree with Denise it could have worked for Leia to have trained Rey after sending Ben away to Luke if (and this is a huge IF) if they had Luke address that and talk to Rey about Ben and Leia’s decision to train Rey. That she acknowledged her mistake as a mother sending her son away when she could have and should have trusted herself to train him as a Jedi. But Luke never even mentions Ben to Rey in that conversation. I do have a couple of problems with TROS and my biggest bitch is that Luke and Leia KNEW REY WAS A PALPATINE AND NEVER TOLD HER and she doesn’t even get angry at them for lying to her? What the actual F**K? Even Luke got pissed at Obiwan for lying to him but Rey has no real reaction to that information. They make Luke and Leia look like lying as**oles to her and like she’s too dumb to even be angry about it! Then she takes the name of these lying As**oles who didn’t trust her enough to tell her the truth about herself? I’m sorry but that irks me to no end. Lol ok my rant is over. This was a great discussion ladies have a wonderful week! Thanks for all you do and MTFBWYA
Yeah, and these holes I think are proof that Rey Palpatine was added late. I understand Rey nobody is cool, but I don't dislike Rey Palpatine in principle. But it should have been an integral part of the story and the conflicts in the characters. The way it was done was horrible.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yes. And they could have had a very compelling interplay of Rey being pulled to the dark and Kylo to the light.
Wouldn't it have been neat if Anakin's ghost had showed up to do all his best to turn Kylo back into Ben, while Palpatine could have lured Rey to him to try to turn her into a Sith.
And maybe they could have imagined a way for Rey and Kylo to meet in the middle of their journeys in opposite directions, and Kylo turns to Ben as he works to convince Rey to stay in the light. Maybe have him show her the true pitfalls of the darkness, the way Anakin had shown him the same.
And then they teem up against Palpatine. And they defeat the former emperor with the help of both Luke's ghost and Anakin's ghost. And make it public somehow. And have that day be celebrated henceforth as the rise of skywalker (I' lm just throwing ideas out there, haven't thought them through).
Lords of the Sith Podcast yeah ITA that part of the story was horrible. Plus I just thought of the way Luke said, “because she saw your heart...” blah blah blah it was good... so what does that mean? That Ben had a bad heart? Or she saw Ben was a bad kid so she sent him away??? I don’t understand it. I still love a lot of this movie but that stuff makes me mad lol
If we're griping, I think my biggest issue is where they stuck that flashback of Luke and Leia training. If they were going to set up a "back story" beyond Leia putting down her lightsaber - you could have expanded that scene: "I feel a disturbance, a new emperor threatens, take the child and hide her - it's her only hope". Put that at the beginning, and suddenly ALL of the other made up/dumped in scenes have a connection, the edits have a chance, and now Leia seems worthy to train Rey - cause "LOOK! I was actually always a Jedi, just kidding, we didn't really need to find Luke in the last movie." But what is the first 10 minutes - "Here's Palpatine, we're a dyad, you're a Palpatine." I swear, after that first 10 minutes, and getting seasick from the sharp cuts - I was just waiting for the final 10 minutes of the movie.
I've been saying this for years but Poe Dameron is the self projection character for a lot of straight men, that's why so many of them, like Trevorrow express a dudely support of the idea of DameRey. One of the reasons that a lot of straight male fans in particular hate this trilogy is because it lacks male characters they can map themselves onto in an idealized wish fulfillment way. In the OT Han was a conventionally handsome pilot who got to woo the beautiful princess (the romance is really told from Han's perspective more than anything). What little fanboy wouldn't want that? Luke was a chivalrous hero, descended from awesome power, who saves the galaxy. That's such a heady power fantasy for a young boy.
Then you've got the sequel trilogy where there's...not characters like that. Rey is a girl, and for at least 2/3 of the story, pretty distinctly feminine in her journey so of course dude's can't project onto her. Finn is too racialized for white men to be comfy with and he's considered not badass enough either, plus he gets paired with the "Not Hot" female character who isn't the main heroine. Kylo is way too emotional, unconventional and complicated to serve as a proxy. So that leaves Poe Dameron as the closest thing to a wish fulfillment character for the fanboys (which is why they were so upset on his behalf in TLJ). Hot shot pilot, much more conventionally handsome, not particularly complicated, not emotionally vulnerable. And I have no doubt this is why Trevorrow wrote DameRey. Self projecting onto and writing in condescending male characters is a staple in Trevorrow's work. Notice how Poe more or less becomes Chris Pratt in his script, chasing and eventually winning the uptight female (in this case over an "unworthy" male). This is pure self insertism. When men like Trevorrow do this they are essentially shipping themselves with Rey.
I've never been so happy to hear your intro music lol!
I’m still so sad about bens death 😂😢😭
I'm watching this almost 2 years after TROS came out and I realize how much I miss your vidoes guys.
Does it make me a bad person if I never want to see Chris Terrio write another film ever again? Because I really REALLY don't like him now. His defense is just utter trash. Why couldn't he just use the title as a jumping-off point when he got lost? This is without question the most mis-titled Star Wars film ever. Only Attack of the Clones comes anywhere close.
I said it before, but I think it begs repeating. One of the things I have always praised Disney for was not interfering with production. But with this trilogy, they really really should have had a tighter rein. Get some centralization, flesh things out ahead of time. Go full JK Rowling and plan it all out years in advance. Though I have my problems with the ultimate fates of the characters in Harry Potter, as I do think they wanted to do their own thing and go against the story at several points later on, there was at least structure there. Plus, it's only three movies, not seven books. Three movies are so much easier to manage.
And that Rey Bloodline novel absolutely NEEDS to be written. The one thing that has always frustrated me about Rey, and it frustrates me now especially with Ben out of commission (he's NOT dead, and don't tell me otherwise!) is that Rey is always running away from who she really is. Even as far back as TFA that was there. Even TLJ saw that a little, but I think the point was really nailed home in TROS: she's afraid of herself. And she's never confronted that. Now after TROS and with Ben currently unavailable, there's nothing to stop her from continuing to hide her true self. She also never really accepted her family for being the mess it is, which is something I really think she should do, especially if she wants to be a part of the Skywalker family. That family's plenty fucked up, too. And even though she tries to be good, she's a failure at being a Jedi. A Jedi would've never stabbed Ben through the abdomen with all their hatred. A Jedi never initiates a fight, yet Rey's always the one shooting first. But that failure isn't a bad thing, as a Jedi also never falls in love. So she really shouldn't be a Jedi considering what she has with Ben. Similarly, the only time she just cannot run away from who she really is is with Ben. With Ben unavailable, the only other way to get her to confront and accept her true self is if the choice is taken out of her hands and the truth is broadcast to the whole galaxy. Clearly she's never going to do it on her own, so take that choice away from her.
I'm on fucking Crait with how much salt I have in me. I want to be free from this pain! HOW DARE THEY TOSS BEN ASIDE IN A FILM TITLED THE RISE OF SKYWALKER!!! (It's been a month now, and no, I'm not okay)
Wow, great points. As to Terrio, he can write as many movies as he wants. I'm just not going to watch them. And true, The Rise of Skywalker was clickbait...
@@vittoriacolona and because her parents were "good" it's not cool to reject the name and reject them.
@@vittoriacolona Think of it this way: Ben Solo could not deny the truth that was his family, yet Rey, his EQUAL, can do it no problem? If Rey does deny the truth of her family, then she becomes exactly like she was at the start of the trilogy: a naive little girl alone in a desert. She would become that shriveled old woman she cleaned parts across from in TFA. All of her character development would be meaningless if she just continued to deny the truth.
The thing about Star Wars is that while good and evil are clearly defined, there's also a huge gray area in between that's become especially prominent now. Plus, whether an act is good or evil depends on perspective. You need to remember that even though her father did choose good, he did still sell her into slavery. Even if it was to hide her, that's still a terrible thing to do to your own child. From his perspective it might have been the only way, but from Rey's perspective it's one of the worst experiences she's ever had. It's arguably the reason she doesn't even so much as mention her parents during the year in between, even to herself, because if she did then she'd have to acknowledge that it was real. And she's too afraid to do that.
The core of my issue with Rey and her family was kind of brought up already in the video, with regards to trading one kid for another. It works much the same way with Rey and her family. She'd rather trade her family for another instead of accept it and move on from it. And if even Ben Solo can't do that, then there's no way Rey should be able to.
What she needs to do in order to become a fully mature woman is to accept that her family's messed up, and that she herself is messed up, and then make a conscious decision on what to do about it, whether it be leaving it behind or trying to redeem her family name or embracing her inner darkness or whichever path she desires. We never see her do that, and we really need to, because that's a huge moment for character growth.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Speaking literally, your statement about not being able to choose your own fate can also be applied to Ben Solo. If you regularly watch this channel then I'm positive you wanted him to live a happy life together with Rey, but he didn't get that choice, did he? My point is, I don't appreciate your generalized assumption, because that is not at all what I meant. I can tell you're offended by what I said, and I apologize; it was not my intention to cause offense.
When the guitar solo opens LOTS videos I get so happy y’all
Thanks ladies, I missed your commentary in these dark times
I completely agree with you guys and also wanted to add that the movie avoided difficult but rewarding scenes, like Ben apologizing to Leia, gaining the trust of Finn and Poe and Rose, becoming a better leader because of Rey and causing a stormtrooper rebellion to support his leadership over Hux, freeing slaves and returning stormtroopers to their families, atoning for past crimes. You don't need a big villan to make the story good or even battle sequences. These kind of scenes would have been amazing but would require excellent writing and wouldn't supply as many action sequences. I had hoped for TROS that a proper conclusion to the Skywalker story would involve making the galaxy a better place for everyone, slaves and stormtroopers included, by Rey and Ben coming together and creating a different kind of leadership, not just killing off nameless bad guy bucketheads. It seemed to me that was what they were setting up in TFA. I have read fanfiction way better than this movie.
I agree, there was so much potencial for great scenes. I just disagree a little that they would be hard to write. Since the conflict and the emotions are already there, you just have to follow the motions. Somebody on Twitter suggested Poe, Finn, and Kylo/Ben as reluctant allies. That's the kind of stuff that practically writes itself. The conflict is already there. The issue is that they had discarded what had been set up (even in TFA) for a plot that was shallow in depth and conflict.
I agree. TROS felt so shallow. Do you think that Disney caved to the uninformed strident voices who called Kylo Ren and "abuser?" That Reylo is an "abusive relationship." It seems to me that those people are the least knowledgeable fans out there, entirely unaware of literary tropes or mythology.
@@dranyakishinevsky yes, many of those fans aren't even longtime Star Wars fans and don't care much for the Skywalker. (Not that there's anything wrong with new fans, but these don't seem very interested in the lore). I don't know if they caved in or if it was because Chris Terrio is one of those fans (completely unaware of literary tropes or mythology, by the way)
Yes girls! I'm so happy, you made my day better :D I think the hardest thing for many of us, is that we've been the ones who loved and supported the ST right from the start, and that's why we took the movie and everything that happened ever since so at heart. It's going to be difficult watching these movies knowing how the Skywalker saga ends... I hope Lucasfilm is going to really think about what it is going to release from now on! Thank you for this, and I hope the drama will subside a bit :)
No you didn't. You don't get to call yourself a defender of the ST if you shit on two thirds of it. You loved and defended TFA, that's it. Move on.
thats how the tlj haters felt after seeing the disrespect to luke i guess.
@@thesalanian Yeah, I'm trying to move on, especially from the drama :D
@@claudiacaturegli254 Try being someone that likes all three films, my life is suffering right now
@@yellowdevil8396 not everyone here liked Luke in TLJ either too.
Yassss, I have today off, love your videos, and love you guys ♥️
The production of this whole trilogy seems to have been a huge mess, sadly to it's detriment. It's a huge shame as there are some moments of brilliance and characters that could have been groundbreaking. But they failed to translate that to the audience. It makes me sad. Star Wars deserved better.
Yes, there are brilliant moments, even in The Rise of Skywalker... But it's almost as if they had gold but didn't know what it was.
Let's be honest Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was the best thing out of this entire trilogy. (In my humble opinion) yes I enjoyed the sequel Trilogy very much but there was a lot of things that they could have done better the whole entire Trilogy saying they thrown all the Skywalker bloodline in the Wayside and mistreating the characters that George created. I just hated the fact how Rey didn't seem to even mourn Ben and Ben Solo's death it gave me a sick feeling to my stomach honestly everything dealing with kylo Ren / Ben solo was great except for his death I really would disappointed in how they treated this character that I love so much. Though I did enjoy some parts of Rise of Skywalker I also didn't enjoy other parts of Rise of Skywalker but the last parts of the movie after been solo died was just pure garbage in my point of view however when I read the leaked script of Colin trevorrow`s script it just made me roll my eyes and breathe a sigh of relief that they didn't use this. I hope they really bring back Ben in either a book, or even animated series I really don't care how they do it I like the world Between Worlds Theory the possibility that he's trapped in there somewhere trying to get out to get to the woman that he loved so much. Adam driver's performance was truly incredible and I loved the dedication that he had to this character that I love. #BenSoloDeservedBetter #reylolivesforeve
OMG YOU'RE BACK HELLO I MISSED YOU
So I know they didn't plan this trilogy almost at all, but couldn't they have planned character' arcs for just TROS. Not for the whole trilogy because that's too late, but just for within the last film. Because except for Ben, no other character has an arc, unless hitting the reset button on a character qualifies as giving them an arc. Characters just move from scenes to scenes, chasing objects an shooting stuff without it having any impact on their personal journey. Rey confronts her darkness, but one pep talk from Luke and that's resolve. Can't flesh out her character I guess or else that would cut time from watching stuff explode, can't have that.
Say what you will about TLJ, all the characters have arcs of their own. Sure, lots of people hate Luke's, but at least he has one. You can look at a character at the beginning of TLJ and see how the events of the film brought them to a new place by the end. TROS didn't give Poe an arc, but it manage to completely contradict the evolution he went through in TLJ where he learnt that playing hero and sending your soldiers on a high stake/high risk mission was something a good leader shouldn't do. But according to TROS, a good leader should absolutely do that, and that will work out fine. So I guess, TLJ was useless to Poe.
But maybe that's better for him because character arcs are dangerous to your health, or I assume so, since the one person who had one is the only main character to die. The one character who they spend time and energy on so that we see his inner turmoil is the only one they kill. The one that are superficial and vacuous so that we feel nothing for them live.
I am almost as mad about this lack of arcs as I am about Ben's death. I might have been able to handle his loss if the film had been structured and paced properly, if they took the time to tell the story of his redemption, gave time for Rey and Ben's relationship to evolve and change before they killed him, maybe allow Rey to have a reaction to it. Just treat these characters like they are people with emotions and complexities, not things to drag around from one setting to another to show off the production' skills with CGI.
TLJ care about these characters, and it made me care about them too, but TROS cared about looking epic. TLJ has a beating heart at its core. TROS is flashy, but ultimately rather empty, and that's what is the worst betrayal to me.
The lack of arcs was terrible, but I think LF can't really interfere in the individual arcs, but they should have noticed that there were no arcs. It's like making a sandwich without a filling. OK, LF gives them freedom to do their own sandwich, but they should notice that they were not making proper sandwiches. But then, at that point, maybe it was too late. I don't know.
What I think happened? No plan, no time (George Lucas took YEARS to write each trilogy before they were ever filmed), Abrams's weaknesses as a filmmaker and as a "closer," too many disruptions (firings, Carrie's death), and Lucasfilm being out of touch with what fans of the ST liked about those films. Abrams thought he was one and done with Star Wars so he never gave a thought about it again until he was back in the hot seat September 2017, just 26 months before he had to deliver a new movie. That's just the preliminary report. I'm sure as more comes out we'll discover other problems.
They should have planned better and waited for this trilogy. I know they had just bought LF and were eager to make money, but they should have considered the brand value and longevity. But I think they don't consider that, they just want numbers right away.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yup. Also should've kept George Lucas as creative consultant.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Look past all those princesses and sweet, fairytale stories and face reality; DISNEY is a "Corporation"; Corporations are motivated by MONEY, nothing more.
Girls, and what happened with John Boyega ?
Such an childish attitude coming from a person who said that fans wanted to see more Reylo action ... I was so disappointed with TROS and that made me dislike it so much ... My joy in being part of the fandom decreased so much ...
Yeah, I mean... it's his choice how he interacts with fans. I think at this point joy is found in transformative work or throwing shade on TROS. Not sure it's much joy. The Clone Wars is coming.
I will never recover from ben’s death. Reylo should stay together forever and what Disney done? Killed their love 😖
Yeah, I mean, there could have been some struggles, but the possibility of moving forward and atoning is quite intriguing and would have made some beautiful expanded material and opened up for a possibility of continuing the saga.
Hi, I just want to thank you for all your podcasts to date and how they add so much depth to the characters in these movies. I share your thoughts and feelings about TROS both as an individual film and as the closure of the Skywalker story. I keep thinking that the character of Rey has become like a ‘a cuckoo’ in the Skywalker nest. I think practically every character in this trilogy has been undermined or diminished as the movies went on. In the Force Awakens both Han and Leia are depicted as not parenting in such away as to protect or nurture their vulnerable son Ben from the corrupting dark forces. I realise that Ben Solo is not a real person but I finds the concept of corrupting a person while in the womb creepy and how that has implications for someone coming into the world with his own choices in life. I don’t feel as if movie goers were really made aware of Ben Solos backstory so a lot of people see him as a villain who must die. After seeing the movie I am not interested in the film makers now putting out explanations for what should have been in the movie. Likewise the comics are only read by a minority and any sympathetic portrayal of Ben is too late.
I looked at the marketing for the movie and the final film and they don’t add up. It’s not a happy satisfying end to the saga and I don’t think there’s a JJ cut somewhere that would be hugely different.
I think that Rian Johnson didn’t do a great job on writing Luke’s character arc in the Last Jedi and I don’t blame the fans for being unhappy with his depiction. I do think that Rian Johnson gave a better depiction of Reylo and that was missing in TROS. The scenes between them lack the intense eye contact and real conversation. There are times when it seems that Rey really does want to kill Kylo. There was so much talk about this dyad but it seems as if they liked what Rian did but they weren’t able to recreate that dynamic again. I felt like Kylo/Ben was more a side character and Rey became so amped up that she didn’t seem like a real believable character. I do agree that Chris Terrio doesn’t really understand the character of Kylo/Ben.
I would like to think that Disney will look good and hard at what happened to this trilogy. I feel as if with the number of different writers and directors the characters and stories just chopped and changed. I know that TROS made a billion but I think behind that figure are lots of people who went to the movie and came out very disappointed. I will be very wary about investing in another film trilogy or buying TROS related products.
I agree with the fact that Luke in TLJ was the main problem for most people. That was the only thing that needed to be "course corrected". And I don't mean making forceghost Luke super powerful. I thought there would be more explanation for why he did what he did... But not. And then, in TLJ, Reylo was mostly praised. It was just about continuing with it.
I think JJ and Terrio, especially Terrio, didn't see Kylo as a complex character and wanted to make him a new Vader. Too late for that, after TLJ... But some of it might have been not knowing what to do. And yes, Ben is a secondary character. Had he not been in the movie, the only issues would be that maybe Rey would have had a bit more trouble against Palpatine, and maybe would have died. Ben didn't help save the galaxy and their dyad didn't really do anything. A pity, really.
Even my ten years old cousin wanted Kylo/ Ben and Rey to be together. It's very strange that Palpatine has a granddaughter, since he was old since Anakin was a teenager. If so Rey eventually marries Harry Hook. This movie was like the GNTM2 finale, were two winners come out, 'cause the online voting system fell.
The production is a mess especially for such a huge franchise. So do you still believe Reylo was the only clear plan they had in mind ir was that also trew out in TLJ first?
I now think that they had absolutely no plan in mind. It's scary.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yeah it is. Probalbly that is why they left everything so subtle after FO and for many people TLJ felt like the end of the story. What JJ says about brother and sister about Rey and Kylo is strange: I still dont get why they choose the Bridal carry photo for promotion if the celebration ir the clear and more explicit interactions between them in the novel.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast But probalbly they choose the Reylo route because they saw a Video of Star wars connection/You guys😉 Which became the only good idea they had.
Everyone seems to miss the thing with Rey's force abilities what is the name of that ability where u learn stuff from touching them both Ezra Bridger and Cal Kestis had it so it is a canon thing she learned stuff from touching kylos mind and even some stuff that she apeared to know how to do without having done it before like with flying the Falcon etc i think her ability was always there but she didnt discover it until she and kylo connect
please tell me more about the book from the last jedi where it was (canon) explained that her understanding of the force came from being forcetortured by kylo
@@yellowdevil8396 thats more of disney fluffing stuff to shut haters up and i just rwad the said passage and i found no proof of it being because of the torcher she picked up on it when she saw herself in his head
@@SuzakusLancelot kinda telling for rise of skywalker if they wanted to shut up haters back then aswell.
@@yellowdevil8396 yep exactly
@@SuzakusLancelot whats your 3 favorite scenes from rise of skywalker?
I just realized something. The sequel trilogy had great acting and a horrible story. The prequel trilogy had a great story and (mostly) horrible acting. It’s like poetry, it rhymes!
I felt Rey arch was great in TFA and TLJ but they change it the last minute with her in TROS to be related to the worst villain of the skywalker saga sheev Palpatine, I love Rey she my favorite sw character but still that kinda bothers me still. But I thought there gonna more about her in coming future with books and comics.
It's possible that they'll continue with these characters in expanded material. The issue is that a lot of fans felt let down so it's possible that they'll try to steer away from the Sequel Trilogy.
Was there a date on this script.?
When JJ spoke about Rey/Kylo being brother and sister did he not mean it in a spiritual sense....brother/sister soul like Twin flames who share a soul on the spiritual realm but inhabit two bodies on the earthly plane.
He meant in TFA, that in TFA it was ambiguous the type of relationship they had. I can see siblings in the spiritual level.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I can only hope that JJ meant it in the spiritual sense
@@smfstracers that's what we hope, right?
Great vid! The best parts of TROS were Reylo and Bendemption. I'll never be okay with how they treated Ben's character at the end with his death and then never mentioning him again. But, now I want to focus on hope that Ben will be back. Rey could bring him back through the World Between Worlds. Or maybe Leia used her last bit of life force to save him and that's why her body disappeared when his did. It doesn't make sense that Leia would've died just from talking to Ben through the force because that requires minimum energy. Or maybe we'll see something completely new and amazing to bring Ben back, because as a dyad, they are connected through time and space and that might be more powerful than we originally thought. Will you be doing any videos on ways Ben could return?
Yes, there are tons of ways to bring him back. Let's hope Lucasfilm and Disney like money...
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast, bringing Ben back would help heal a lot of the damage done in TROS, in my opinion. It'd be a start. His death didn't make sense. It negated Han, Leia and Luke's sacrifices to save him. It contradicted a lot of moments in the films, books and comics hinting at Bendemption and a more hopeful ending for the character. I think Adam Driver would come back eventually. If Harrison Ford came back (twice), anything is possible. But I'd love to hear what you ladies think about all this. ❤
I think the problem was they seeded the Reylo plot in TFA, but not overtly - they could have veered before TJL if they were going to abandon that. But, they saw enough of the audience pick up on the threads, they doubled down, we got character development in that direction for the middle movie. But the - fanboys, Luke backlash ensues. Then, by the time TROS comes along, Disney no longer buys into their own Disney Princess concept due to all of the controversy, and so they start an "appeasement" campaign to make everyone happy. I think they changed mid-course after TLJ, and Kylo Ren was going to die instead of life. So - HOW does he die? And that's when it all falls apart because they couldn't just commit to property developing and finishing their original concept, but now he has to die well? The plot resolution doesn't fit, because it was NEVER meant to be the actual end of this story.
The issue is why Colin Trevorrow was allowed to develop his Damerey treatment. Nothing against Damerey, it's a cute couple, but it wasn't in the story. So I think they had no plan. It's weird, I know. I think the backlash stems from false expectations and can be traced to the TFA marketing and the lack of course correction after the movie. Why were they treating Reylo was some big reveal? It was weird.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcastTrue. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. JJ and his damn mystery boxes. If they had just been more overt with the intended plot in TFA, they could have told a really beautiful story. But everyone was so caught up in the "McGuffin", and we end up with a mess of a story with a cobbled together reveal.....big Siiiiiigh....
Can really hear the disappointment in Denise in this one lol
Girls, thank you for your wonderful videos, they always make my day!
Breyer's reylo ice cream.
True. So much Reylo-friendly stuff and excitement for them!
If it never didn't get to the script phase then it could easily be that they tried to get Trevorrow to get on board with their vision, but he wouldn't and so he was fired. Then Disney get's scared and doesn't allow JJ the freedom they promised and since the executives aren't creatives you end up with a mess.
That's a possibility.
Hey girls, thanks for the episode :)
Denise's comment was priceless... the ultimate bedtime story: 'long time ago in a galaxy far away ...and he didn't turn good. And he died.' Hahaha
On genre-mixing:
Different genres can be introduced in the SW universe, war-film elements with Rouge One, western style with the Mandalorian... but the main trilogy should have stayed true to it's core genre, because setting false expectations really messed with the audience's head.
Universal truths, relatable characters in a story infused with thrill, excitement and adventure at it's core, all sprinkled over with buckets of magic and wonder.
Thinking about it now they should have left the storyline separate. It was masterfully shown in The Return of the Jedi: for some challenges you need people to come together, build trust and collab (Endor and space fight) but there are challenges in life you have to face alone. Rey carrying out missions with non-force sensitive people who doesn't get her, messed with her head, and messed with us - we were all left in confusion.
On the alternative script:
Kylo dropping down Rey on Jakku? Stupidest thing I ever heard. The stormtrooper Coruscant rebellion on the other hand - big Yes!! The oracle thing also sounds like a cool idea, but Poe and Rey... in the fanfiction world yes, on the sceen absolutely not.
If you think about it from a pitch perspective, it's bloody hard to summarize TROS in 2 sentences without sounding ridiculous, that really should have been a warning sign. Not sure how some of this went past quality assurance processes.
On the reylo plot:
I need to find that tumbrl post you guys mentioned, because Rey not having a hint of sadness let alone grief was the most out of place reaction I could have ever imagined. OR...
Wait a moment...here is our fairytale moment! because there is virtually no one in real life who wouldn't feel a hint of pain, so it must fiction in its purest form. Or she is a Palpatine after all, having ZERO emotions about people dying for her.
Beauty of letting go - being content - actually it's interesting perspective didn't thought about it. Will watch it again to see if it helps with the sarcasm-storm I'm experiencing.
What has been happening in the past few weeks? I'm kinda lost on the pr, media storm around Star Wars...
What went wrong:
Throwing people under the bus seems to be main theme in scripwriting. Maybe this was the brief for the trilogy!
People would have eat it up the simple story, I agree. Simple question was all we needed as a guiding thread for the trilogy. Will they won't they? Who will stand with who?
I blame the story/plot hierarchy being somehow messed up compared all the previous films. The balance *oh the balance* was missing between the basic elements.
Force-plot > non-force plot
Family storyline > lover's storyline
Dark side storyline > light-side
Etc.
Anyway I hope you are having a nice day wherever you are ♡
Yeah, in terms of genre, I agree that Rogue One doesn't do fairytale. Even Solo kind of misses the mark. But they are not the main saga, and don't have the "A long time ago..." in their beginnings. So it's fine, and it's actually cool to experiment with that. But the saga is the saga. In fact, what's going to happen now, with no saga? Can't know.
I agree with you that Rey with non force sensitive people or maybe force sensitive people was a little odd. She did run off to go on her own, but it was as if she was turning her back on her friends... It would have been easier if they had separated. But I guess it goes back to genre. Here's where some understanding of hero's journey would have helped. Chris Terrio is completely clueless, though. And we really have to wonder why they hired him. Usually when I get a job I go through an interview where they check if I'm a good fit. I'm wondering why it isn't like that for Lucasfilm.
Stay salty Mary. Stay salty. Do you think that Hux could have risen to the Super Villain level for this last movie? Some say no because he was made the butt of too many jokes in TLJ. But, I would have loved to see a Technology vs. Force showdown. Hux thought technology was superior to the force, and they set up how much he hated Kylo Ren. I really think Hux could have had a great arch too.
Ooooh, technology vs. force is the theme of ANH. That would mean coming full circle and connecting to the beginning of the Saga (in release order). I think both TFA and TLJ established a rivalry between Kylo an Hux that could have been explored. It's a pity they barely interact in TROS...
Yes there was no overall vision that these directors had to work from. E.g. JJ came up with Snoke, Phasma, original characters that looked cool and mysterious and yet when it came to Rian's turn, he just killed them off cause they were not his characters and he didnt know what to do with them. That right there is proof there was no overall plan, because Rian even says as much.
As for JJ saying they could be romantic, but then again they could be siblings lol, this is pure JJ. Abrams. The guy is a mystery box director, his whole mentality is "it could be this, or IT COULD BE THIS", his only interest is to set things up and leave it all open for someone else to come in and do something with it.
Only here it becomes like hot potato, its quickly chucked to the next person, and then they chuck it on to the next. Only for JJ this backfired on him spectacularly and it all came back to him, and by that point he had no ideas to work with and had been written into a corner.
I think what you need to understand is theres no way they could have set him up in such a way which would satisfy everyone, just think about this Reylos please; IF Kylo had not have died at the end, and he kissed Rey, and they got up and went off together. You guys would be in cloud 9 lol, BUT the rest of us would have simply called "BULLSHIT".
For me its because majority of the fan base would be of the view point that Ben Solo turned bad because of what exactly!? With Anakin he had a purpose, yes he was manipulated, groomed even over some time by Palpy, the undeniable fact is that the different with Anakin was he has "reason" for why he ultimately CHOSE to go to the darkside, because he knew the Jedi were too restrictive in their teaching and learning of the mysteries of the force. And Anakin knew that the only way he could unlock such abilities to save his loved from dying was to go full darkside.
Yes, with Kylo the idea is that he reveres Vader, wants to be like him, as powerful as him but hes conflicted and torn, yet his actions and behaviour in TFA and TLJ show us hes leaning more toward the darkside than the light. And yet we still dont learn exactly WHY he fell to the darkside.
I think they could have set up expectations in such a way that most of the audience would be on board with the plot, but I think they threw bones and too many directions. For Kylo/Ben, I think the lack of closure/respect for him at the end is what is most disgraceful, and lack of respect for the Skywalkers, too. I think in that aspect, most fans agree.
I think they ripped us off for denying us closure. Maybe I could have accepted Ben’s death if it hadn’t been so matter-of-fact. Even if we ignore the idea of redemption and consider the emotional response by Rey of the loss of such potential. Nobody wanted Jack to die in Titanic, I’m sure, but we got our closure.
I agree with you completely. I mean, maybe they could have had some beautiful words about the force, about how he'd always, in a way, be with her. Maybe it could end with her saying "be with me". It could have been emotional and beautiful, and I think it would have been way better received.
Did anyone else notice the figure in this scene: Ben throws his lightsaber into the sea and turns around as though expecting Han to still be there. Han is gone but a little way up to Ben’s right is a figure dressed in black and a cape. It’s fairly tall and slender (so it’s not Leia) and doesn’t appear to be wearing a helmet. The cape isn’t moving in the wind but Ben is staring at it as the scene changes. I’ve seen the movie 5 times and it’s obviously a figure and not debris. I was wondering if it could have been Anakin. Rey took Kylo’s tie fighter and the Falcon picked up Fin and Janna so how did Ben get off the planet? Perhaps there was originally a scene where Anakin appeared and told Ben where there was a workable tie and it was later cut but that small scene with him standing on the DS was overlooked?
Oooh, interesting. I haven't seen any figure. I'll try to check it out. It would have been so wonderful to get some closure/resolution between Ben and Anakin, but just an apparition is at least something.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Would love to know if you see the figure too.
@@marycademandus1262 I need to wait for the home release, then it's easier to see things.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Right. I just meant that Whenever you wAtch it again I’d like to know what your thoughts are. 😊
@@marycademandus1262 sure!
Oh man, this this this and why why why? Sigh. What a debacle.
So this only occurred to me a few days ago, but I think at least part of the reason why Ben died was from story board issues. I still think that he is in the WBW and will come back, but something that I've noticed about the new Star Wars is that there is a surprising amount of realism. In Lost Stars there is the love afair between Thane, a man who defects from the Empire and joins the Rebellion, and Sienna, Thane's childhood friend who joined the Empire at the same time. Even though we the readers know that Sienna is a good and honorable woman who is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to her serving the Empire, the rest of the Galaxy doesn't. She survives the Battle of Jakku thanks to Thane and ends up arrested as a war criminal. The book ends with Thane promising to do everything he can to get her out of jail, and will wait for her however long it takes, and Sienna being more pessimistic, and she's not wrong to be so. In the Aftermath Trilogy we have Nora Wexley, who has recurring nightmares about flying her Y-Wing at the Battle of Endor and who's war trauma clearly effects her decisions throughout the books. And finally we have the corruption and laziness of the New Republic in Bloodlines. We also see how quickly the public can turn on even the most beloved of heros when the truth of Leia's paternity gets out. In a matter of seconds her career in the Senate is over and she's made a pariah.
If Ben had survived then the Galaxy would be out for his blood. Rey would naturally want to defend her beloved, and that would cost Rey her hero status, and unlike Leia, she wouldn't have access to personal wealth or connections to those in power. Ben would be hunted as a war criminal and hated for being an iron fisted tyrant, and whatever was left of the First Order would brand him as a traitor. With him vanishing into the WBW Rey can tell everyone that he's gone and be telling the truth, so she remains the Galaxy's darling, and in a year or two when everyone has had time to rebuild a little and move on the next big public scandal or whatever, Rey can go to the WBW, get her man back, and they can slip away to somewhere secluded and start their new Jedi Order.
This is also kind of a boon to the marketing people. In a year or so IRL we could start seeing ads for an animated mini-series on Disney+, and that would bring in so many more people who would sign up just to see Ben's return.
That's possible. OTOH, there's more material, like REsistance Reborn, where people who previously worked for the Empire are accepted in the Resistance. Even in Lost Stars they say that they can't emprison everyone who worked for the Empire or there will be nobody left. In terms of Kylo/Ben, they could have looked for a solution. Had they wanted, they could make him have a larger role saving the galaxy. It's also possible that many people still don't know about Ben/Kylo and Ben can have a passa. It's all a matter of integrating in the story. But yeah, maybe something in the WBW could work, too.
Poe and Finn were relieved when Hux turned out to be the spy and reacted kind ti him even shoot him because Hux wanted not to be confirmed as a spy. And Hux was WORSE than Kylo ren. So I dont think they would have wanted to him to chase as a war criminal the whole time. He could have gone to exile and Rey could have followed him later.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast well either way, with social media being such an integral part of everyday life, Disney/LucasFilm has to be aware of how much Ben is loved and missed. Every Sequel film only got him more and more converts, and the Kylo Ren comic is only furthering that. If they're paying attention to how popular Baby Yoda is, then they're paying attention to our heartache and disappointment. And if Palpatine can be bullshited back to life, then so can Ben.
@@molliethomas2585 "bullshitted back to life". Truer words have never been spoken!!!!
Colin T. Trevorrow's script sounds like pure garbage to me. At least JJ's had the Bendemption we wanted and some Reylo moments. I had issues with TROS but in my opinion it was the best out of the sequel trilogy until we get past Ben Solo's death. such wasted opportunities for Ben in the final installment my only hope is that he is trapped in the world between worlds and he is trying to get back to Rey. Maybe if that is the case Rey can bring Ben back. There is a book in this theory. If they don't bring back Ben back in some way they'll be making a big mistake.
I guess we could have gotten worse than JJ's version we could have been given Colin's....
#bensolodeservedbetter #bringbackbensolo #reylolives
Oh, yes, for sure! And there are some really cool moments in The Rise of Skywalker. I'm glad you liked it!
I was thinking that TROS was a bad movie with good moments but Trevorrow's script just show me that it could had been much worse. Each script/movie of this trilogy was written by different people that, apparently, didn't talk. JJ did TFA, RJ assumed TLJ and undid some things that JJ left, JJ return to TROS and undid most of the things that RJ set up. K. Kennedy approved all that... how? how did she approve all of this mess? Despite all that Disney said we, the Star Wars fans, can see that there are huge problems with this trilogy behind the scenes. Also looks like that Disney did the new trilogy to erase the Skywalkers from Star Wars universe, why anyone would think that the death of other Skywalker in the end of the new trilogy would be a good idea?!
Kylo Ren/ Ben Solo was the best of these movies, his arc was fabulous until the end of TROS. Rey Palpatine (that acted like a child in the end of the movie sliding through the sand... wth?!) is not the heir to the Skywalker legacy. Ben diserves better just like the other characters of this new trilogy. I liked the idea that Rey was from an important family , JJ set that up on TFA (the quest to seach for her family) and RJ undid on TLJ (why Ryan?!) but I think that idea should have been better explained. Keylo and rey romance would be epic, even if they didn't have a romance, since they are a dyad, they should be alive, both, founding a new jedi order or something like that. They are both powerful but the end of TROS shows that only Rey could destroy Palpatine, Ben died and she didn't feel anything.
Chris Terrio doesn't know what he is talking about. Again, why K. Kennedy approved all that mess?!
Why is the question. I'm also super baffled that the plan was to kill the Skywalkers. It's baffling for an IP that was just recently bought.
He did direct Justice League and Batman vs Superman, Chris Terrio is not a good storyteller, he does not understand nuance
@@thelivingdripunal2513 great point about nuance. He really lacks it. It's weird how people keep hiring him. I know he wrote Argo, which was good, but perhaps he's not good for fantasy/sci-fi, where so much of it is metaphorical or maybe he can't write an original screenplay.
@@vittoriacolona so ... if i don't agree 100% with YOUR point of view I need to grow up?!? congratulations !! your argument is super valid.👏👏👏👏👏
If the original trilogy had been produced like The Rise of Skywalker.
A New Hope: Leia and Han are obviously going to fall in love. They bicker and flirt from the beginning. And, there’s zero sexual attraction or tension between Leia and Luke, but loads between Leia and Han.
Empire Strikes Back: Still flirting. Kiss with Luke is obviously made to make Han jealous - we’ve all been there. Leia and Han finally kiss! Now, they’re obviously a couple, holding hands, etc. Han is jealous of Lando’s flirting. Leia tells Han she loves him and he responds in typical Han fashion but we know 😉 Movie ends with Leia and Luke starring out into space. Leia is obviously grief stricken over Han. Luke reassures her they’ll save him.
(Fans are left with cliffhanger and, to imagine the romance rekindling in the sequel. Fans are triple excited.)
Return of the Jedi: Leia saves Han from the carbonnite. Now, they’re closer than ever on Endor. Han is willing to make sacrifice and step aside for Leia and Luke’s *love*. Leia tells him she and Luke are siblings. They kiss. At that moment a dying Stormtrooper raises his blaster and aims at the happy couple. Han spots him and throws himself in front of Leia taking the blast and dying in her arms. Her face registers...surprise. Later that night she celebrates the defeat of the Empire, laughing and dancing with Lando and, no one ever mentions Han again. THE END
(The audience: WTF?)
Yeah... I think your version of ROTJ must exist somewhere. Terrio saw it.
I’m laughing how you began this video saying you weren’t going to be as negative as your previous video. Then the whole thing was pretty negative. Not that I’m complaining. I am also very disappointed with this film. I’m wondering if in part to you are going to go over some of the visual evidence from the film of all the changes. @MarienneMaid on Twitter has documented many things that point to the large number of changes, with the idea that sometime in the fall some major changes occurred.
I saw her tweets. The issue is that we cannot post bootlegged material because RUclips can take the video down and even suspend the account. We didn't even post the TROS artbook images.
There's more of this discussion coming and we'll discuss that part. I think it was just very chopped, edited last minute, had last minute changes... In the beginning it seemed to me that the idea was for Ben to live, but I think the only thing we can know 100% was that there was no plan for the ST... and that sucks. But yeah, once the movie is out we can do more visual analysis.
As to the negativity, we're making an effort at least not to be angry.
HEY EVERYBODY!!! Raise your hand if you think JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio were JEDI PAXSIS LMMFAO😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣. 🙋🏽♀️
lol
Lords of the Sith Podcast hey honestly it’s the only thing that makes sense. Look at how the leaks kept changing and the film kept changing. Is it coincidence??? Is it possible JJ himself wanted to get reactions and was making that shit up as he went along according to the fan reactions to the leaks? Idk I think it’s crazy weird how the two things seemed to have constantly been changing lol 😂
@@anthoneyrago I don't know... I think he would have noticed people were hating the movie... But frankly, people didn't hate the first version with the oracle and stuff. What bothered people most was Ben dying.
Lords of the Sith Podcast it’s a long shot but it would be hilarious if it was true🤣
Trevarrow was fired for creative differences, clearly it was over what he wanted to do with Kylo Ren
For sure! I don't think they would have let that happen. But instead of waiting for the treatment to fire him, they could have given some directives... Talked about the direction of the plot in a meeting. I don't know, it's weird.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I know there was absolutely no plan in place at all, most stories have points set out to reach and you think they would have settled on a redemption story and Reylo but it seems like that was only added in to make the fans happy, the infantilisaton of Rey pointed out to me at the end of the movie also makes me feel uncomfortable considering this is a character that young girls look up to
I believe that the biggest mistakes that Disney made with ep IX concerned time. Maybe they should’ve pushed the release date another year already when Carrie Fisher passed away & even more so when Trevorrow left. That would’ve given Terrio & Abrams time to work on a more solid script. With the Rise of Skywalker, in my books, they got many things right but I understand all the critics & I believe that what Disney disregarded with the final cut was more time. If the screen time had been just ten minutes longer (preferably 20 mins) they could’ve explained Palpatine much better (made his return much more believable), Kylo Ren’s reaction to his existence & those other scenes that were shot on Mustafar & further explained his conflicted feelings for Rey.
I didn’t mind the whole Macguffin search but ALL scenes with Rey & Kylo prior to the Death star fight/redemption should probably have been slightly longer & less rushed. The death star sequence & especially the redemption moment definitely should’ve been longer - those (pre- &) post-redemption dialogue scenes between Rey & Ben shouldn’t have been cut out (including more time to take in Leia’s death somehow). Also, there could’ve been some minor improvements to Rey’s convo with Luke but for my part they may keep the Han-Ben-scenes intact. Finally, at the end they could’ve more or less kept things as they were from Ben’s arrival on Exogol until his death BUT they should’ve given more time to take in Ben’s death & they should’ve shown BETTER how Rey handled his death before the end of the movie. For my part, the movie works as it is (I still love it but it’s because I actually appreciate ambiguity) but I believe that more fans/critics would’ve appreciated this movie if we’d been given more time - screen time & scenes explaining some essential aspects better, like explaining what’s a dyad! (”minor” detail 🙃)❤️
Somehow, I think that an overall slightly slower pace & less ambiguity would’ve made some character arcs much less disappointing. Also, 20 minutes extra screen time could’ve given us much more Rose Tico which would’ve been SO awesome! All-in-all I think that neither Abrams nor Terrio are to blame because if the rumours are correct, they wanted a longer movie & probably wrote a script that worked accordingly but when Disney forced them to cut out too much, it left some of the story hollow & unsatisfying for many.
Yes, but there might have been some last minutes cut. I think more time would have improved a lot the weird editing and pacing. I don't think more time would have benefitted the story, based on Chris Terrio's ideas about Star Wars. Maybe they would have had more time to get a better writer. I don't think any version of IX with Terrio would have been decent.
Lords of the Sith Podcast Yeah, it might be so (with Terrio). Btw, I heard some rumours, that the kiss was included AFTER the test screenings (where Ben just fell to his death off that cliff) so Abrams never meant for it to happen. I’m glad it did, though! ❤️
@@mathildabacklund5976 I heard those rumours, too. It's not true because there were no test screenings. It's also not true that JJ didn't mean it to happen. He likes Reylo and talks about it with passion and enthusiasm. That said, it's possible it was included last minute because his death and disappearance is so strange afterwards. That whole ending is strange and the cast reaction is strange, so something happened. We just can't really know what yet.
Lords of the Sith Podcast Thanks for debunking those rumours! 🙏🏻 It sounded strange because I’ve noticed that he’s pro-Reylo in interviews. Yeah, truly difficult to know what went ”wrong” in the end. Have any of you girls watched it a second time? When I did, the ending worked much better for me but I agree that it could’ve been improved with very simple means, being, as you & many others have pointed out, a little bit more time for Ben’s death scene & a few more scenes showing Rey grieving him, etc. It wouldn’t have been that hard, really!
Have you guys heard of the news about Reylos posting death threats on social media? I honestly don't know what's happening anymore... I'm already disappointed with TROS and now... I'm also disappointed with these "Reylo" fans. They aren't fans or shippers, they're trolls.
It's a hoax and has been disproved. You can read a bit of it here: www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/18/latest-star-wars-film-satisfies-right-wing-will-left-start-trolling/ The guy wrote it on Buzzfeed used Dataracer as a source. Dataracer is Fandom Menace and also says Kelly Marie Tran has never been harassed. He collected a bunch of tweets. The ones with death threats are not by reylos.
There is some info here as well: medium.com/@KMMcCort/when-systemic-hatred-of-women-online-goes-unnoticed-what-does-it-say-about-us-930cccb683e0 The article is long, but you can ctrl F Dataracer and you'll find the evidence on how this was manufactured.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Thank you so much! I feel so relieved to hear that... 😌
15:29 Ahh but thats the ONLY STORY fleshed out by JJ and Kasdan, NOT the treatments for episode 7,8 & 9 by George Lucas; because Disney, and ultimately Bob Iger simply chose to throw out his stories, aiming to "make Star Wars their OWN". Can you women understand this?
This all points to Kathleen Kennedy, remember what she kept talking about, her main goal was to basically "get more girls into Star Wars", this is why this love-story seems to be the main basis inside of this Disney Trilogy, which you all picked up on, the rest was filler.
And yet this right there is the main flaw, because the "Skywalker Saga" while romance evidently always been there, was about many other things.
"and then we go and get excited about what we see" indeed you all did, right from that interrogation scene lol. This is where JJ tired to sow somekind of potential romance, clearly knowing hes been under instruction of one Kathleen Kennedy to throw something in there that can appeal to "girls", afterall most you women are simply not interested in the space battles, ligthsaber duels, etc, etc. So yes you get excited about what you see building up slowly in the story, and where it will all lead.
While us passionate fans are seeing everything else and where other things could lead, Why did the lightsaber call out to Rey? Why did she find herself in the corridors of Bespin where Luke fought his father, Who is Snoke and why is he scared of Luke skywalker and wants him destroyed, where does he originate from? Who are the Knights of ren and most importantly where does Rey fit into all of this? These things while they may not have mattered much to you women, these were the very things us fans were all "getting excited about", THIS IS STAR WARS TO US, working out who the characters are, whats happened over the 30 years past, because of those events that came before, how ALL of this fits in.
You must understand this, because to JJ hes just setting up this big "sand box" with all these characters, and all these ideas of where the story could go, and then leaving it to someone else to sort out, that was his job, that was the structure Kennedy laid out.
Kathleen Kennedy seriously thought they could have their cake and eat it, i.e. play off nostalgia in the first part to draw us all back, while thowing in subtle romantic things to appeal to the girls. Then in the second part they would "challenge the fan's expectations" and then in the final part bring closure to everything.
The only trouble is those fans expect everything you have set up to be answered and answered well, consistency, and then the girls out there wanted that romantic element played out and fulfilled. You're just not going to please everyone, not when you are coming off of a already existing continuous saga.
While I disagree with you that romance is just for girls, I'll agree that they should have worked better on setting expectations and commited to a storyline.
Usually Mary is my voice in this podcast lol but I cant agree with you guys when you say that DLF should have marketed rey as the heroine and kylo as the villain/son of leia I mean, they cant give the answers to the audience thats not how marketing for a movie works
The issue was that they marketed Finn and Rey as love interests, Finn as the main lead, and Kylo as a random evil. After three movies where this inicial marketing is not the case, some people still believe in the TFA marketing. Maybe there would be a way to prepare the audiences without revealing Kylo's identity... But they shouldn't have made people think that Rey was the legacy character.
54 minutes of entertaining content... but whats next? the movies take a few years off and the tv shows are not very deep. what will you cover the rest of the year sweet ladys?
Well, we have part 2 of this, which is coming soon.
We have a few more ST content, some stuff on the PT and maybe the OT. I love the Clone Wars, so we might look at it, too. Other than that, I think we'll expand to talk to things other than Star Wars. Other movies, books, etc.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast black widow movie review incoming i guess✌️
@@yellowdevil8396 That's an idea.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast, I definitely look forward to more Star Wars and other content from you ladies. You're the best!
@@mariamiles1605 Thanks!
28:30 oh yes girls, that could have been a lot better if he were the descendant of palpatine and to be the big bad guy, but we know they didn't have a plan for this trilogy.
Why are we even surprised the ST turned out this way? It's been going downhill since TLJ (well, TFA, really) and I know majority of Reylos beg to differ but the truth is, RJ wrote JJ and co. into a corner. He gave a middle finger to fans and retconned JJ's ideas (we know JJ gave Rian an outline to at least solve a few of his mystery boxes but RJ refused to use it) so JJ went and retconned RJ. This is madness. Letting directors power play with a 4B trilogy is irresponsible. I bet Colin made Kylo the villain because either that OR bring in a bigger bad in the 3rd movie so he went with the only remaining "bad" guy we actually know.
Also Denise, about letting Colin write the script/treatment however he wanted. Happened with RJ too. He showed DLF his 1st draft and they accepted it. He never made a 2nd. TLJ was basically A draft and yes, I am pissed because that is not how you treat a trilogy, especially as important as SW. You go over the script, make 4,5,6 drafts until it is solid and you think about the movie before yours and the movie after yours. You make a 3 movie outline. Everyone who took part in deciding the faith of the ST is at fault. I am so so sad the fandom is in a shape like this. No hope, happiness or a sense of finality.
Kylo/Ben was so disrespected and I don't understand why. Can we talk about the fact that there is no Ben Solo Funko pop? I know it is the least of the problems but a Ben Solo pop is one of the few merch I would actually pay for.
P.s: release the Oracle cut!
Yes, the lack of a plan and clear directives from the beginning was the issue. To be fair, though, as far as I know, and based on JJ's history as a creator, he didn't have answers to his mystery box. RJ said he had to figure out why Luke was in the island. How could JJ and Kasdan write such an important plot point without a clue why or where it was leading? So I agree the problem starts earlier. Agreed that RJ could have used some guidance. I personally like TLJ, but I wish he had some pointers from an experienced screenwriter. He kind of ignores the issue of dealing with and managing audience expectations.
As to Ben, it's insane. There's a video on how to do a Ben Solo action figure. They didn't release one!!! twitter.com/rosicrucian1970/status/1219836304805908480 It's almost as if D/LF doesn't like money.... But I think the real truth is that they had no clue what they were doing and didn't know people would love Ben Solo. But it's soo scary to think that they were taking care of a billion dollar franchise and had no clue what they were doing...
I've read so many different variations of the supposed leaked script that I don't even buy any of this. My guess is someone had a look at the concept art book and just extrapolated stuff. Besides. Trevorrow has been awfully silent about this.
No, it's not the older one. The concept art book has things that were in the JJ/CT script, since there's a photo in the artbook and some shooting locations.
Hello there!
Did u guys hear that Disney said they aren't done with Ben Solo
Yes, but we don't know if they want to continue his story or release more background material just for torture.
That movie should be titled Rise of the Headcanons because we got royally screwed over
@@SuzakusLancelot yeah... it had issues.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Oh God I hope it's not the latter. They need to get moving with reviving Ben so he and Rey can move forward.
@@molliethomas2585 reviving Ben would bring LF a lot of money. They need to think in which direction they're going and if they want to fix this mess.
With each new piece of information coming out about TROS, I find myself losing more faith in DLF and the future of Star Wars. I was disappointed in TLJ but I still held on hope for TROS. Of course that totally died when I saw the movie and witnessed the absolute garbage they gave us for the finale of the Skywalker Saga. I'll still be listening for more Star Wars works in the making, but I don't think I will be as loyal and anticipating in fear of more disappointment.
Yes, I agree it broke the trust.
When viewed in totality the sequel trilogy is a dumpster fire. I can’t even engage anymore.
Yes, right? Even things that seemed interesting, we look back and realize there was no plan... It's almost like they struck some gold by accident but had no idea what it was.
That is so true. Even without the Kylo/Rey dynamic Finn was such a compelling character & totally wasted. Not to mention the opportunity to give a meaningful and proper send off the original (and in my mind only) trio.
@@keradonahue7262 true. They made Finn an ex-stormtrooper, which is super interesting... then didn't do anything with it.
Disney: Wants a Disney Princess. A Powerful Female Lead
Star Wars/ Lucas Film: Wants the Skywalkers. Compelling characters.
But since Disney owns the Franchise, they always have the last word. They underestimated the fans and it back fired to them. They got what they deserved.
But princesses get happy endings... I get the idea that maybe it was Disney's fault, but then when you read Terrio's interviews you see that he thinks this is really good... We could have had a powerful female lead and a Skywalker had Ben remained alive. Oh, well...
Could have had both!
the reylo death threats to jj abrahams surprised me. didnt know hate was part of the fandom.
I don't know if you really believe that, but it was a hoax. The source for the death threats is a user known for putting anti Kelly Marie Tran content, and the collection of "death threats" includes non reylos, with some tweets from reylos who just didn't like the movie. It has been proved false but the writer of the Buzzfeed article choose to ignore the evidence that it was wrong.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast cant trust any news i guess. after your initial reaction of kylos death i could see some extreme fans send hate towards the creator of their dissapointment. great love can create great hate afterall.
@@yellowdevil8396 people were really upset and sometimes can be stupid, for sure. As a whole, usually reylos know each other and police themselves. I can't speak for every individual, but there is no proof of death threats by Reylos. There might be one or two out there, but nobody has yet shown any receipts, so I'd guess it's not something common. Had it been pervasive, we would have seen a at least a couple examples. The examples shown come from non reylos.
The article is this: www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/18/latest-star-wars-film-satisfies-right-wing-will-left-start-trolling/ there were some tweets debunking dataracer's claims. (And remember he's known to say that Kelly was not harassed, and makes some other claims)
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast thanks for taking time to answer me^^ enjoy your day