When Rey walks up to Kylo in the elevator, he reminds me of a boy from high school who is super uncomfortable around girls because he has no idea what to do about it. Amazing acting!
My thought on Kylo and relationships has always been- how could he be physically or emotionally intimate with anyone when Snoke is in his mind? I think he's isolated himself.
I thought it'd be easier for me to explain my points of view, if I arranged them like this: 1] In "The Force Awakens", Rey calls Kylo a creature. In "The Last Jedi", Snoke calls him a child. His mask is referred to in both moments. Each person hates the side of him they were seeing when they said those words, and Kylo hates BOTH sides but won't admit it. This shows the middle ground he needs to find to become a whole person, breaking fully free of the dark chains that have held him back for so long. 2] Luke and Han seemed to have swapped certain personality traits in these new movies. Han (at least to me), though he kept his sense of humor, he appeared to have mellowed out a lot since "Return of the Jedi". He was more open-minded, expressing to Rey and Finn his total belief in the Force, instead of continuing to call it a hokey religion. Even though he voiced some doubts about his son's redemption, we could still see the hope for that in his eyes. Luke was the exact opposite. He was cynical, dismissive, and constantly exhausted. Watching "The Last Jedi", I got the feeling that he'd developed a form of PTSD. Alterations in personality like that often happen to real-life soldiers. Comparing these two men could be a way of studying the different ways war can change people.
Maybe it's the catholic upbringing, but Kylo's robe in TFA always reminded me of a cassock. Which meant a) it never struck me as feminine and b) Kylo totally gave off a celibate vibe
Omg "if it makes people angry it is a poor form of propaganda" What a great line. As to the virgin thing, there is a very romantic notion in Star Wars that people are only attached to one person. Anakin and Padme, Han and Leia, Luke and Mara Jade, Obi-Wan and Satine. There is always just one special person. I think Han getting a young love interest in Solo is the only deviation from this but even then it was only one. So it just follows that if Ben is into Rey then there couldn't have been anyone before her just like there was no one for her.
Exactly. Overall, the Skywalker Saga romances-those big loves, first loves, true loves, soul mate loves-are pretty fairytale and innocent and coming-of-age.
Hey! your podcasts are so interesting and refreshing. I always enjoy everything you have to say about Ben Solo/Kylo Ben, but in this podcast you also talked about my childhood crush, Luke Skywalker and the description you made is exactly the reason why I fell in love with him just like an entire generation. For me, he had the ending he deserved as one of the greatest Jedi. I still feel so emotional about it specially in the part that is understood how inspiring he was and still is for the people in that "galaxy far away". How he came back at least as a projection to comfort his sister, save the Resistance, give his nephew his final lesson and become one with the force. Thank you so much.
In terms of being a coming of age story I think the ST does a great job of covering sexual awakening (in a way that legitimately goes over kids’ heads) by using Force sensitivity/powers as a metaphor. So while I agree with Mary that canonically Ben is likely an actual virgin, on another level I don’t think that matters as much his experience “in the Force.” Kylo is an extremely skilled and experienced swordsman, and as a talented and highly trained Force user is perfectly capable of teaching Rey “the ways of the Force” (which he does in both TFA and TLJ, although he gets off to a bit of a rocky start with his racy lightsaber lesson on Starkiller). Along those lines, a layer Ben’s “fall to the dark side” in my opinion symbolizes his sexual corruption and loss of innocence/purity-largely by Snoke’s influence. (Leia’s line is “It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side.”) And while I don’t think Ben had an actual sexual relationship with Snoke, his relationship “in the Force” with his golden robed master who gives off a distinctly pedophilic vibe is really creepy and has those undertones. (I am so glad they cut that scene with Snoke touching Ben’s face, but they still filmed it). In the ST there are also two lightsabers that belong to Ben, which as phallic symbols I believe represent the two paths for him as a sexually mature adult being: Anakin’s legacy/lineage lightsaber and his red Kylo Ren lightsaber. The red lightsaber seems to represents his current corrupted sexuality. Incidentally, according to Wookiepedia here is where red kyber crystals come from: “Kyber crystals were inherently attuned to the light side of the Force, and resisted any effort by dark-side practitioners to use them in lightsabers. To this end, a Sith or other dark-sider could use a kyber crystal only by using the Force to dominate the crystal, bending it to their will. This process caused the crystal to "bleed," as if it were a living organism, resulting in the distinctive crimson-bladed lightsabers synonymous with the Sith. It was possible to "heal" a corrupted kyber crystal . . . [in which case] the crystals turned white.” I find that the symbolism of the coded as Eve and a captured princess, genderbent Kylo ending up with a cracked red (like apples, pomegranates, and blood) kyber crystal when he joins the First Order kicks up his relationship with Snoke to a whole new level of ick. On the other hand, we have Anakin’s lightsaber representing the path Ben was/is supposed to follow as an adult man-as Anakin’s last heir he is supposed to carry on Anakin’s lineage. And the fact that Rey keeps ending up with the Skywalker legacy saber is a nice visual of the reality that without her Anakin’s bloodline is going to be broken (as his lightsaber currently is). In a climate that is quick to demonizing masculine sexuality, I also really like that Ben’s attraction (including sexual attraction) to Rey is portrayed as a good thing that has a humanizing effect on him, and ends up being the crucial element in him getting away from Snoke (by killing him with Anakin’s lightsaber), and likely also in his eventual redemption. “Returning to the Light” will, therefore, likely with result in Ben having a normal, loving, sexual relationship with Rey, and continuing what his grandfather really started-the Skywalker family. As always enjoyed your discussion and would love to hear your thoughts.
That's a brilliant comment. Great points about his two lightsabers representing perhaps two sexual paths (and maybe two visions of masculinity), and we know which one Rey can't live without... We've also commented a lot on how TLJ is portrays feminine sexuality in a positive light and how amazing that is, but it's true that it also portrays masculine sexuality in a positive light, which is incredibly amazing too. It's true that masculine sexuality is often demonized, and yet TLJ makes something beautiful and touching out of it. Snoke's relationship with Ben has ickyness all over it...
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Two versions of masculinity, definitely! I think that is a great way to put it. And agree that TLJ did a good job of exploring masculinity, femininity, and the relationships between men in women in a really beautiful way that is unusual to see in a movies.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast The more I think about it, this discussion also makes me see Rey grabbing Kylo's red lightsaber in a new way, as she definitely experienced a loss of innocence on multiple levels in the throne room.
Wonderful insight, especially regarding Snoke being killed by Anakin's saber and Ben continuing what Anakin really started, the Skywalker family. LOVE it.
I still think Ben is a virgin just because I don't see when he would have had sex under Snoke's control and he was too young before that. Like did he just sneak off with a kitchen staff girl and go back to his dark side training lol I just always thought of Jedi and Sith training as being like a Priesthood with no sexy times allowed.
Love listening to you. I have thought a lot about Ben/Kylo psychology....he is rejecting all types of male authority:his father( not present when needed) not offering emotional stability, his uncle not strong to support him, but failed to his own fears not trusting Ben enough, Snoke, a bullying manipulative predator.... I believe, in the end he will reject the last type of the male authority,Darth Vader, which is being overpowering so other people cannot exist healthily around him. Kylo is Ben's growing up into his own persona who will be able to take ownership for his actions, life and relationship with Rey.
Personally I do not want anybody tell him anything...I believe that he will be able to see events from the past( Anakin/Darth Vader). Ben/Kylo should be able to make his own decisions of what's right or wrong then.
I think with Ben's knowledge of history from Luke, Snoke and his own studies he would know that Vader's "weakness" was his love for Padme (later Luke). So I believe he would adopt a similar policy to the PT jedi, and would not form attachments or even physical intimacy.
Funny, because my understanding of the PT Jedi was that they could love, just not commit, meaning that there wasn't anything against non commited intimacy, unless it was a spin Anakin put on hoping it would entice Padme... Yeah, but Kylo is very reserved and closed off.
Its funny that people have such a hard time with Luke's arc. I was literally Luke in female form 40 years ago when it all started, and I got to tell you, it's much more realistic, and darn it, not in a bad way. He got older, smarter, and made mistakes just like me. You have to know the bitter to know the sweet. Full circle. REAL. The ones that pissed me off were Han and Leia. 40 years and they still can't communicate, screw up their son, and can't really be together Shesh. Ah, well. Love it all. REYLO Forever.
Yeah, Han's arc wasn't the greatest in the ST, and Han and Leia bickering all that time... With Luke, it would just be nice to see some of his sweetness or understand the transition to bitterness.
Carla, first of all thank you for sharing an opposing viewpoint without first having to attack people who disagree with you -- I can't tell you how refreshing that is, lol. The last time I said I didn't like how they handled Luke in the ST I was informed that I must not really be a woman and am a "bro" from 4chan or /r/pol pretending to be a girl. Anyway it's funny, I can see your points about Han and Leia but that didn't bother me at all. I guess it's because it's also true that sometimes people don't learn and grow, and it makes sense to me that they continued to be poor at communicating and when confronted with massive relationship problems they just regressed a little and threw themselves into what they were good at as an avoidance. And I hear what you're saying about Luke's arc being "real" but I just don't see it when he's seriously considering killing Leia's son. I can't accept it and I don't understand the decision to take that approach in the first place. I think that's part of why a lot of people rejected the arc. Anyway, we can definitely agree on Reylo forever.
@@rowangreenleaf I understand what you are saying. I can see why people are angry, but to me Luke did a very Luke thing. He was always a bit rash and quickly upset by some things. He said he could never kill his father, but in a rage, he did almost that. It was a very rash, emotional thing to do. And in this case, it was a rash, emotional, passing thought. He regained himself before carrying anything out, but it was too late. If you thought for a moment that someone you loved was going to kill a lot of people, even others that you love, and you saw those images, and they were horrific, you might for one instant think the same, no matter how hopeful you are. That's just my take. I like so many things about this storyline and don't like other parts. I would have liked to see a different type of universe, but I'm enjoying Reylo so much that I can't wish it any other way. I'm sure you've seen many a person say this, though. I'm glad we can agree on Reylo forever!
@@marydidyouknow5826 I completely agree with everything you said. To add another layer to Luke's "moment" I think he could have been left with a little PTSD from facing the Emperor too. The Emperor would have killed Luke if it wasn't for his father's intervention, so perhaps in seeing another great darkness in Ben he was triggered. Facing evil almost didn't work out for him in his youth and he became the hero saved by another unlikely hero. The idea of facing evil again in his later years, completely alone, no mentors to guide him, no father swoop in at the last second and save him, was probably terrifying.
I’m so glad that I found your channel on RUclips! What an interesting discussion. I even went back and watched your first video on Masculinity in The Force Awakens. I like that your opinions and predictions are back up with observations and facts. You make it really enjoyable and entertaining to listen. I enjoy that there are women who enjoy Star Wars. I’m glad that I’m not the only one. Keep it up!
I do think Ben idolizes Vader (not Anakin as JJ stated, which makes me think he knows exactly what happened and how he couldn’t finish the job at the end by killing Luke and why Snoke made him kill his dad) but I don’t think he’s necessarily a wannabe, because he wants to do thinks differently than Vader - he doesn’t believe in the Sith ways, he wants to do what Vader did and looks up to him, but also not make the “mistakes” he think Vader makes - if that makes sense to you. So I don’t see him as a wannabe, and more as a role model and the person he thinks he relates to most in his bloodline.
The epilogue of The Last Jedi showed 'Broom Boy' with his broom looking at the stars, having just heard a story told about the amazing Luke Skywalker, and he saw the Millennium Falcon streak across the sky transitioning into hyperspace and we experienced it with him, watching our heroes flying to their destiny in IX.
30:00(ish) I always thought that the reason Luke cut himself off was so that Kylo (and Snoke) could not find him - we know that Snoke, Kylo and the Knights of Ren were looking for him. Also, Luke's feminine side is evident when we get the final reveal about what happened at the Jedi temple. You can see that Luke has been struggling with the sense of his own failure and guilt, especially as he's afraid of his own father and feels that he's failed his sister's trust - after all, Ben is the only Skywalker child.
Always love your discussions👏👏Concerning Luke, the point is that he's lost his true self in TLJ due to his guilt, anger and pain so he reacts in an angry masculine way. But in the end he shows his feminine traits again when he accepts his failure and wants to heal, an absolutely feminine trait. He becomes his old self at the end when again he refuses to fight, it was beautiful. Also, the point everyone refers to about how he saw the good in Vader but thought about killing his nephew, well Luke had no part in the creation of Vader, he never saw or was part of his downfall. Luke was pure there and just acted on faith because he wanted his hero dad back. Whereas with Ben he felt the ultimate responsibility, that he, the legend, the Jedi master let his nephew under his watch become a new Vader. Its the pain that Obi felt at the end of RotS. He reacted on his fear, his fear blinded him and led to his anger in that second. Just like it did in that moment when he cut off Vader's hand. Idk but it all made sense to me and thought it was so well done when you think about it. P.S. the broom boy makes me tear up at the end because I feel that Rey and Ben can create a better galaxy for children like him in the future. Its a personal headcanon😄
Accepting your failure and wanting to improve yourself is a feminine trait now? I should have expected no better after reading your channel name. And Luke didn't refuse to fight Vader, he threw his weapon away because he'd already won the fight. But I suppose there's also nothing masculine about showing mercy either, huh?
@@kingkwon8002 1. I said 'healing' is a feminine trait(when a man is in touch with his masculine and feminine traits he is the best man that he can be). 2. Having a problem with my tag shows that you're a pretty sensitive fella aren't you? 3. And regarding Luke refusing to cut down Vader I'm referring to the part where he lost control and cut his hand off but then regretted it. That was similar to what happened with Ben in the hut. See you around kid.
enfysnest 1. It helps to reread your comments. You said Luke showed his feminine side by wanting to heal *and* by accepting his failure. Don’t know your definition of “healing” but Luke accepting his failure was a display of perseverance, a masculine trait. You could say that he finally “manned up.” Also there are good and bad masculine/feminine traits, so your statement is only true if both a man’s masculine and feminine qualities are positive. And even then, probably most girls would prefer a masculine/feminine balance of 85/15 in men. Lmfao if you think it should be closer to 50/50 2. Sensitive, no, just wanted to lul at your taste in film. 3. Oh. Sorry, I get it now. Feminine women don’t lose control over their emotions. Gotcha. Was that your mic drop moment?
I love this topic of masculinity. It seems our society is promoting effeminate men lately, yet no woman I know likes men like that. I do have to disagree on one opinion offered that Kylo has experience with women in the cardinal sense. Confidence does not mean a man is experienced sexually. He has immense power, which is enough to inspire the amount of confidence he has, which is still quite shaky. In fact, with the way that he treats her, his gentleness with her, and his personality in general, I'd say he's a man that does not give of himself so freely. Having sex is a vulnerable thing, intimate. And I don't see him being intimate with anyone else. Kylo is guarded, hidden. We get the sense that Rey is the first person, even among those he works with, who has seen his face in awhile. He certainly never showed Hux before he came upon him meeting with Snoke after he'd removed his helmet for Rey. And he had it on in the first meeting we saw with him and Snoke. This is a fairy tale. The hero in a fairy tale is the kind of man who honors one woman for life and doesn't dishonor others by using them. Love is seen as destiny and soul mates only give of themselves to the other. It's intended for kids, so romance is always a new awakening between both parties. The heroine is someone who stands out above all other women. She's the only one who has ever and will ever turn his head. His physical body and her physical body are honored, not treated like they are not sacred. Rey, also, though in a place where rape certainly would have happened before she could really learn to protect herself, is seen as innocent in this area. This is a Disney series, after all, and being for kids, they would not have written a story where other women have been in his life. It's an exciting fantasy, and I love seeing a storyline unfold that shows that no one else has ever turned the other's head. They are both the first one for the other, and it's spectacular!
Yes, the theory that Kylo is potentially a virgin makes sense, and that's why there even was a conversation between Rian Johnson and Adam Driver on whether he'd ever kissed anyone; it means it's not obvious. And there is some vulnerability in opening up physically. My personal opinion is that it's up to each person's interpretation. It's not true that women don't like feminine men. The overwhelming response to Kylo in TFA should be a clue, for example. I think women like confident men (just like men like confident women), but that's different from being "feminine". A man who wears more "feminine" clothes, for example, displays confidence. Same thing with a man who isn't afraid to get in touch with his feelings. Back to SW, Luke in the OT was a lot of people's first crush, even if he was delicate and sweet or perhaps even because of that.
Also, I (Denise) absolutely love feminine men. Jewelry, long hair, care for appearance, soft voice, I think those are all very attractive traits, as well as emotional openness, gentleness, etc. I know a lot of women like that as well.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I'm going to preface this with an apology for being extremely long. I never saw Kylo as feminine at all. His costuming, even though long, is very masculine. In biblical times, in the regions written of, men all wear types of robes and Jewish men, at least, had longer hair, though not nearly as long as women's and that is only one small factor that distinguished the two apart. The closest thing men wore to pants was something that was worn under their robes and was considered underwear. The clothing was all very similar, with a few distinct differences. And the longer hair of the Jewish men doesn't seem to have elicited any commentary that they were feminine. These men would have been incredibly strong. The Egyptians knew that if these men outnumbered them, they would have no problem overpowering them. If anyone was more feminized, it was probably the Egyptians, who had become used to Jewish slaves doing the hard work and so had become soft. They may have looked a little more like our traditional view of a woman. In fact, they may have looked even softer than the Jewish women, who were seen as incredibly strong and hearty by the midwives. Do you think that Roman men, who wore skirts, or Scottish men, who wore kilts, look feminine? To me, they are entirely masculine, moreso than many men today who wear pants. American Indian men, also, have longer hair in many of the tribes. There aren't many that I see as feminine just because they have longer hair, even styled hair, unless they don't seem that masculine in mannerisms or body (not very muscular, softer). Kylo is in no way feminine, in my opinion, and as he exits his ship the first time we see him, he's commanding and his gait is entirely masculine to me. His costuming is designed to make him look intimidating, not feminine. When men wear longer coats today, I don't think they look like they are wearing dresses. I do agree with you, entirely, on men getting in touch with their emotions, but I've never viewed this as feminine, just human. When it's viewed as feminine, men believe that acknowledging their emotions makes them like women, which is never something to be encouraged. Men's emotions are quite different than women's in many ways. They are unique to men, just as women's are unique to women. These differences should be celebrated when they are portrayed in a healthy manner. Women and men are different from one another. They are unique. Women were meant to do everything a man can't and vice versa. We cover the gaps for each other. Rey is a strong woman and she can fight, but that doesn't make her manly, nor does it make her manly that she's wearing an outfit that could easily be worn by a man, especially her outfit in the first part of TLJ. Especially when Kylo is with her, it is apparent that he's all man and she's all woman, at least in my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with our modern society's idea of what is masculine and feminine (not that I believe every one of those ideas is wrong) but what really is masculine and feminine. Luke was also my first crush (though not until the second movie), but I didn't see him as feminine or delicate (just young at first and then just smaller, though honestly, I didn't think that until I became an adult. I'm 43 and watched the first film when I was seven years old, several years after it first came out). He's a smaller man, which is where some of that thought may come from, and it's not overly apparent that he's a muscular man because of his stature and narrower shoulders, but he does have a lot of physical strength. Mark Hamill did a lot of his own stunts, and his muscles are prominently displayed while he's training with Yoda. And in my opinion, he didn't have the most confidence in the first two movies. He had arrogance for sure, but his confidence lacked in many areas, yet women still swooned. He does have a manner that's less commanding, overall, but not all men are the same and that doesn't make them less masculine. He's certainly more commanding when he's older, though. Just my opinion, though. And just addressing the comment below, again, I don't think that any of those are what makes women women and men men. Not all women have gentler voices. In fact, those women with really strong, aggressive voices hate it when people call them manly. My daughter has a loud, assertive, sometimes aggressive voice, and she is rough and tumble, but I think it's wrong to classify these types of girls as Tomboys. It's as though they think women can only be soft and delicate. There are four main types of energy expression in people. Every person has a combination of all four, though they lead with one. There are some men who are softer and gentler, some who are more serious, some who are the most commanding and leading, and some who are bubbly and effervescent, love to talk, and may be more baby-faced. But all of these fit into masculinity. And we tend to be drawn to the opposite types of who we are. I, for example, am the bubbly, effervescent type, the type usually called cute over beautiful, and I was drawn to the more serious type of man, the kind who puts absolutely everything in a calendar, the complete opposite of me. If you are familiar with the Living Your Truth system, you'll have heard of these types. I think where we've erred is where we've ascribed only one or two types or just certain aspects of these types to being what is seen as masculine. Sorry to go on so long and to disagree with you. I just don't think that masculinity and femininity is as black and white as our society has made it. Anyway, have a great day. What I love is that we can disagree on something but in the end, we still love Star Wars and we still love Reylo. God bless.
It seems that he is having Anakin's path reversed. Anakin was good but was full of anger and fear. Kylo first is angry and now he is growing into a pragmatic man who is compassionate towards Rey and wants to destroy what his grandfather stood for. Reversal path I imagine.
I agree Kylo Ren got more brains than Anakin, and his dad was a jerk who turned out to be kind at heart as well, so probably he got that from the Solo side of the family xD
I thought that Luke’s anger comes from his inability to stifle his fear - which Jedi are warned against - and because of that he ‘handed’ Ben over to Snoke. He knows he failed Ben and that failure tortures him.
I always thought movie Anakin was much more feminine than TCW Anakin. I sorta thought that was done on purpose because movie Anakin turned off a lot of fans. I can remember a friend of mine when I was in my teens hated movie Anakin because he cried so much and he felt movie Anakin was made out to be a "bitch". It's interesting that because Kylo is so emotional now we hear a lot of fans saying the same things they said about movie Anakin about Kylo. Its obvious both Kylo and Anakin have these specific traits for a reason whether they be masculine or feminine traits. I dont think either character's story arcs would make sense if they didnt show some sort of emotional/feminine side to them. I grew up in a family that was allowed to show emotion and share how they feel no matter what sex you are. My brother is known to be a crier, but was his football team's MVP in highschool, so my perception of how a "real man" should be is different than how others perceive it. That being said I can totally understand how others fans may feel and how they may not like seeing a male character with some feminine traits, especially a villain.
Yeah, as far as I know they made TCW Anakin to "fix" Anakin. He has more masculine facial features and a deeper voice. Don't get me wrong, I love TCW Anakin, but I think movie Anakin makes a lot of sense, especially when contrasted with hyper-masculine Vader. It's sad that some people still believe that men shouldn't express emotions, or that crying and being vulnerable makes someone less of a man and the backlash against those characters (Anakin in the PT and Kylo in TFA) shows some of these ideas.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I completely agree. There are still some out there who were raised to not show emotion, that it's not "manly." I'm not sure where that idea came from.
I agree, I always imagined Anakin as a Thor-like formidable warrior before I watched PT and I remembered to be quite disappointed. Although, I'd like to argue the majority of the feminine traits of Anakin were primarily seen on the AtoC Anakin, in RotS he was much more matured and almost like a different person. I think TCW did a fantastic job in filling the gaps and showing just how Anakin transformed during the clone wars.
In my opinion Luke's bitterness and anger though is really directed at himself. That he lost that compassion, that softness that you may consider "feminine" when he acted in haste and fear with Kylo. His "masculinity" prevented him from being able to accept he made a mistake so it was easier for him to run away, cut himself off from the force and create a false narrative of what happened rather than admit he was not perfect. That's why he runs away because he lost the ideal he had about himself and the Jedi and I think that's why in the end he sacrifices himself rather than killing Kylo. I think that was a very compassionate act an quite a return to his feminine side rather than an act of masculine bravado even if he played with elements of it in the fight with Kylo. And I actually loved that they showed how even the most ideal people will fail with time and circumstances. I think that's why in some ways I love this trilogy more than the OG that I grew up in. Because there is an acknowledgement of the grey, of fallen heroes that even the OG really didn't touch on even with the pull between light and dark. Side note-it makes me sad how women are uncomfortable with the term feminist and are still so worried about what men will think about them if they use that term. Most of us guys are raised to value really fucked up toxic masculinity and confronting that is only going to help everyone but especially dudes. Feminism is one way to do that. It's only a threat to people that feel threaten not unlike how both Anakin and Luke act in haste and fear because of their dreams and projections not in what has actually happened.
You forgot to mention the fact that 'broom boy' looked into the night sky and watched all of the heroes of the new rebellion in the Millennium Falcon transition into hyperspace. Rian wanted all of us to see that.
@Lords of the Sith Podcast - have y'all ever considered starting up a discord server? I'd love to see some of these conversations continue on in between videos. I have experience moderating a server if you would want any help.
Aha I've had bad experiences with Discord in the past! We do have a Facebook group though (I actually don't even have a Facebook account myself but still lol). Btw I haven't had a chance to read your other posts but will get to them tomorrow. It's pretty late here and I'm supposed to work in the morning meh
@@rowangreenleaf no worries. I also don't have Facebook. I deleted all of my social media. My life is much more peaceful without it. Lol. Outside of commenting on RUclips videos and chatting on discord, I have no online presence. I look forward to your response to my standard way-too-long post. It delves into some sociology as it relates to TLJ and why I believe many fans view it as a "feminist" statement, while I believe postmodern is the more accurate term. Anyways, great video. Look forward to chatting. Have a great night!
You know kids catch only impressive things: the Battle of Luke Skywalker in more uncommon than a long-working general like Leia...but I thing when they will be adult, children must know the name of Leia and her contribution of Resistance.
Fair enough, and it is about the importance of heroic acts. RJ could also have Rey doing something impressive, right? Or something that also inspired the kids? Since in theory she should have been the protagonist.
Also, I’m pretty sure the Canto Bight kiddies were also impressed and inspired by Rose, considering that lingering close-up of Temiri’s (“Broom boy”) hand wearing the Rebellion/Resistance ring she gave him.
Lords of the Sith Podcast Her “lifting rocks” was pretty awe-inspiring to the remaining Resistance. But for the wider galaxy, Luke’s reputation already preceded him-hence books like “The Legends of Luke Skywalker”-and Canto Bight was his big, magical “last stand”. Rey and Ben will have their big, galaxy-shaking heroic moments next time...
I think TLJ Luke was perfect. He was right about the Jedi's failures, and then he failed too. Yoda and Obi lived in exile, too. So, there is sense that there is a price to be paid for being force sensitive. Finally, Luke gave his last moments to helping Rey and the Resistance escape, just as Obi Wan did for him. To me, it was bittersweet. So, basically, I'm good with it.
Luke's last moment was really cool, and it's neat you enjoyed Luke in TLJ. It's such an amazing movie visually, and if you really dig the plot and characterization, it can be fantastic!
No loss of hands, please!!! That’s so done. Lol. You all just clarified something for me with why some people have their childish hate of these sequels and it is the cave man masculinity they are missing in their bad guy. I have not understood this, glad to get it now. Not that makes me empathize with them but it’s good to finally get it. You all rock. Thank you!
What are you talking about ? Luke was so sweet in TLJ when he’s with Leia, that was the moment we saw him come back to those qualities when he was with her, he was the one who was hopeful to Leia, “no ones ever really gone.” He threw his Hail Mary projecting himself across the galaxy to try and reconcile what happened. Yay Denise is saying it!!!! Thank you Denise!!!! Yes he was angry at himself but he came back to who he was in the end.
Lords of the Sith Podcast I only say something because that is one of my favorite scenes in TLJ. Mark and Carrie were so beautiful in that moment and Mark did an incredible job acting in that scene. That’s my favorite Luke scene of all time now.
Lords of the Sith Podcast that was Luke’s journey in TLJ was to come back to that person he was, and if he can come back, then there’s hope that Ben can too. That’s why Luke says “no ones really ever gone” in the story right? He feels how true that is.
Gregory B TLJ Luke was the most relatable for me. I understand some people have a hard time with it. I loved him in TLJ and that scene was impactful on so many levels.
Awesome video. A lot of interesting analysis, especially regarding Kylo. My difference of opinion though is with the idea that Luke's change was due to a conversion of feminine traits in the OT to masculine traits in the ST. Nothing about Luke stood out to me as masculine in TLJ. Nothing stood out to me as particularly feminine either. In TLJ, he was complacent, indecisive, selfish, and hopeless. He had become a curmudgeon who had done the one thing that Luke Skywalker would never do; give up. I don't think masculine vs. feminine is the proper angle to take when analyzing Luke in TLJ. I think the proper angle to take is one that may be somewhat...controversial...but since I've had several fruitful conversations with you that have largely been based on disagreements, I'm going to go for it. Now, this kind of ties into what you were discussing at the end of the video regarding feminism, but I'm going to take a slightly different angle with it. A lot of criticism is levied at TLJ for being overtly feminist, and while I think there is *some* truth to that claim, I believe the better term to describe TLJ is that it was postmodern. Postmodernism is predicated on a mistrust of grand theories, historical canon, archetypes, etc....I think the most glaring example of this being put into play in TLJ is in the relationship between Luke and Rey and how it deviates from the traditional hero's journey. In the OT, Luke went through what is probably the best modern representation of the hero's journey. In the ST, the traditional route would have been Rey taking the place of Luke, with Luke taking the place of Obi-Wan (or arguably Yoda, though I think Obi-Wan is the better fit). This process was subverted when Luke refused to train Rey. Instead of the hero rejecting the call to adventure (only to have a change of heart), it was the teacher rejecting the hero pleading for help. The only way to make this work within in the context of the story was to destroy the archetypes involved. The result of this is an assassination of Luke's character. As for Rey, the destruction of her hero archetype came in the form of her skipping the part of the journey where she learns from a teacher. She is able to perform incredible feats of power both physically and with the force despite having not learned to do so either through the wisdom of a teacher or even through the consequences of failure. This is where the controversial "Mary Sue" label comes in. Rey as a character has subverted the hero archetype at the expense of another character, in this case that character is Luke. A basic tenant of postmodernism is to replace grand narrative with the notion that all history is simply about group power dynamics. This is where the connection with intersectional feminism can be found if one wants to find it. Now, let me first state that there is an incredibly significant difference between modern intersectional feminism and the feminism of the 60s and 70s. If we define feminism as the simple idea that men and women should have equal rights under the law, then I think the overwhelming majority of people, myself included, are feminists. Intersectional feminism however plays into the group power struggle theories of postmodernism, and finds the destruction of canon, archetypes, and traditional narratives key to achieving its purported goal of equity (not equality of opportunity...but *equity* in results) amongst all groups. A simpler way of explaining this is that it is essentially Marxism, but with immutable identity characteristics such as race, gender, or sexual preference replacing economic classes. Old school feminism is basically the sex-based equivalent of MLK's views on race: that we should *all* be united by common humanity, and viewed as individuals that are judged by our character. This new wave intersectional feminism is about uniting women and minority groups against a common enemy (typically straight white men, the "Patriarchy," or any group perceived to have more power), and that individuality should be discarded in deference to collective identity. Some people looked at TLJ and saw these tenants of intersectional feminism playing out. I could go through many examples, but I'll stick with the one relevant to this conversation which is that the dynamic between Rey and Luke *could* be taken as a woman not needing the help of the Patriarch. I'm not saying that this is correct, but this is how some people see it. A lot of the "strong female lead" marketing around the ST, as well as incidents like Kathleen Kennedy wearing a shirt that says "the Force is female," haven't done much to ease the concerns of people who think that this is the case. I think there are arguments both for and against the idea that TLJ was film that had intersectional feminism in mind. I think the stronger argument is that it was postmodern, and as such was more interested in subverting canon and archetypes. When this postmodern emphasis is combined with efforts to increase diversity with an emphasis on "strong" women who outshine the men, it gives it the appearance of intersectional feminism. Rian Johnson may have been pushing intersectionality in it, but I don't think the evidence is as strong for that as it is for a postmodern disdain of Western literary canon. Either way, I believe the main issue many fans had with the male characters is that they were largely shown to be either incompetent, unhinged, or cowardly. Men respect the hell out of competence in particular. It was quite jarring to see many of the male characters portrayed as incompetent (Finn, Hux), cowardly (Finn, Luke), or unhinged (Kylo, Poe). Also, the most competent male character, Poe, was berated for his competence (by characters who happened to be female, fueling some fan's feeling that this was about intersectional feminism). Anyways, those are my thoughts on that. I watch you girls routinely do a great job with the psychology angle, I figured I could dust off my degree in sociology and flex my knowledge a bit on that topic. I tried to stay as neutral as I could while going through all of that. The only thing I'll say in terms of my opinion on the matter is that while the film is definitely postmodern in nature, I think the fans that call TLJ feminist propaganda, while they raise some valid criticism, are overreacting. Likewise, I think the fans that dismiss the idea that *any* intersectional feminist messaging was present in the film are maybe being too lenient and possibly biased depending on their own views. In other words, I think both sides have some valid points, and the answer is somewhere in the middle. Either way, I think Disney's only true agenda was to make money, and any messaging that is or is not in the film is a result of what they felt would be most profitable. Again, awesome video, and I look forward to the next one (as well as discussing this more if you wish)!
Well, on Luke, he didn't have either positive traditionally "feminine" or "masculine" traits in the beginning of TLJ. He was also missing some of his softer qualities traditionally considered feminine. This is an important conversation because the common criticism to TLJ haters who didn't like Luke in it is that they are sexist. But then, if you think that many TLJ haters missed Luke's softness, kindness, gentleness, it does put a spin on things, right? As a viewer, I missed soft, sweet Luke, because it was the Luke I fell in love with as a child (I literally had a crush). I think it's a point that's often overlooked. I agree with the definition of postmodern to TLJ. RJ did set out to defy and frustrate expectations, but fiction is all about managing audience's expectations. Defying expectations is good, frustrating expectations is not something a writer should do. Poe and Holdo is a complicated conversation because many women were also offended by Poe. Having a subplot upsetting a lot of the audience is more due to poor writing, in my opinion. Had the message been clear and been worked well in the movie, it shouldn't upset people. We are going to talk about it in the next episode, but it's a difficult topic. Not all men in TLJ were incompetent. Kylo was very competent (killed Snoke), Luke was competent (saver his sister while at the same time not hurting his nephew), but only in the end, and it might have been too little too late. Finn's arc was frustrating, for sure, but it was Rose's arc as well, and the whole idea was Rose's. So we have an incompetent couple. I think seeing characters fail is uncomfortable in general. That said, the so-called protagonist of the trilogy was pushed aside for the second epilogue of the movie. It makes sense because Luke/Kylo had to happen, but Rey could have been more important, and she's a female character. Leia was pushed aside to give Poe leadership in the end. It makes sense as part of Poe walking in her steps, as a way to complete Poe's arc, etc. Still, we should have focused on Leia's reaction to Kylo showing up, not on Poe's reaction. I really think it's rather bad writing than some kind of attempt at a feminist message. I don't think Disney gave RJ a message. If there was a message, maybe it was for strong women and romance to attract more female viewers. I think RJ did the romance well, considering the narrative constraints, but I don't think the women were that great. I also don't think female viewers go to the movies to see incompetent heros regardless of their gender, so I don't think Disney would have had an agenda to make male heros incompetent. I think the mistake was in not appointing an older, experienced screenwriter as a mentor to RJ. I think intersectional feminism should be about recognizing race and social differences other than just gender differences, and I think it's a good thing. That said, there's no bar exam to declare yourself a feminist, so it can be definitely distorted. Are there people using feminism as a justification to hateful behaviors? Yes. Is that real feminism, even intersectional feminism? I don't think so. But who's to judge, right? So I see your point. Plus, in a time of Twitter and its pitchfork mobs, feminism and other noble causes are sometimes claimed as justifications for some far-from-great behaviors. This was a tricky episode to record. The first one, on TFA, was already scary. We were worried that people would be offended about two women talking about masculinity, but thankfully viewers understood that we were tackling tropes, etc, and it was important to tackle it because it's such an important theme in SW and in TFA. It was mostly fine. Viewers asked for an update after TLJ, but TLJ can be such a loaded topic because of the perceptions of gender dynamics in the movie and because of the division in opinions about the movie.
I'd also add that in the Original Trilogy, Luke is perfectly capable of being indecisive or giving up. He does this at first in ANH, only accepting the call to adventure when his family have been murdered (burnt bridge). He does it (effectively) between ANH and ESB by concentrating on his material world (Rebellion officer and pilot) rather than his spiritual calling (Jedi), which was after all the critical element in the destruction of the Death Star. He does it again when Yoda rebukes him for lack of faith following his failure to Force-Pull the X-Wing out from the Dagobah swamp. There, he gives up and sulks, only to shamed by Yoda's calm demonstration into resuming his training. Then, instead of sulking, he rushes off like an idiot (despite BOTH teachers telling him not to go) to confront Vader and almost destroys everything. As for cowardly, I wouldn't put Acht-To down as cowardly. His sense of guilt over what happened, together with a sense of failure at the loss of Ben to the Dark Side (backed up by his companions and Snoke) can only have presented Luke with a terrible choice - stay and almost certainly die - or flee and try to work out what the hell just happened. Luke also bravely faces up to the failures of Jedi tenets, even if he takes too much of the counsel of despair. What he said to Rey, "At the height of their power, the Jedi allowed Darth Sideous to rise, create the Empire and destroy them" is harsh but true. He's seen the failure of the Jedi but he's not (yet) found a path of reform. All heroes (and Luke remains one) go through periods of spiritual death. Luke fled to Acht-To to try and recover his strength, thought he had lost it and found at the end that he had enough to make the right choice.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I know that these cultural angles can be difficult to discuss, so first I want to thank you for the opportunity to have such a civil discussion about. As you mentioned, the current climate of the internet does not tend to foster productive discussion about these types of topics/issues. Please keep in mind that part of goal with the original post was to actually push back against the idea that the film was some type of feminist propaganda while still acknowledging some of the commonly brought up reasons that others will use to claim that it is. I feel very strongly about the idea that I have no business arguing one side of an issue if I cannot atleast make a good faith attempt to understand the opposing view. Additionally, I can understand why people would be turned off by any intersectional feminist messaging in Star Wars. I hate to use an appeal to authority argument here, but I spent a significant amount time studying intersectionality, postmodernism, and other modern sociological tenants while getting my degree in sociology. The doctrines coming out of the humanities are not what they used to be, and concepts like intersectionality are far too similar to Marxism for me to find any value in them that could possibly outweigh the dangers. I'm a very liberal person when it comes to social issues, but the left end of the spectrum can go too far, and the literature on intersectionality I studied was anything but liberal. Anyways, I get that there are counters to the criticisms about male characters in TLJ. Incompetence doesn't describe all of them. Certainly Kylo displayed a high level of competence when he killed Snoke, but he was also wildly inconsistent as a character and alternated between moments of extreme competence and being totally unhinged. I personally like that about Kylo, but I completely understand why that doesn't work for a lot of people. As for Poe and Holdo, I just think that entire arc was poorly conceptualized. I'm sure somebody can find gender politics in that if they want to, but my honest analysis is that it was just poorly done. I have far my issue with the hyperspace ram than any gender tropes between Holdo and Poe. Anyways, thanks again for a calm, open minded environment to discuss these ideas in! Its always a pleasure talking to y'all!
I don't think Luke had abandoned his feminine energy, I could still see it, but I do think that he suppressed his anger/masculine energy for too long instead of dealing with it in healthy ways, and when you do that your "dark side" can come out pretty negatively. But in the end, you find a balance as neither extreme is healthy, which is a lot of what this trilogy is about (very Jungian)! Luke had a right to have some dissolution with the Jedi order, I think we can all agree on that. And I find his commitment to non-violence to be exactly in character for him. Most people I spoke with that were mad wanted a "badass" Luke trashing some fools. THAT would not have been in character. It also worked with the narrative of not everyone is all "bad" or all "good." I didn't mind broomboy, but it would have been nice to hear them bringing up some other inspiring peeps too, I agree. Always interesting to hear others POV. Thanks, guys! PS: Celebration is almost here!!!!
Oh yeah, if he tried the path of the PT jedi that could have messed him up. Yeah, badass Luke trashing people doesn't make any sense. I didn't hear that, though. Luke in Crait was neat because he got to be badass and peaceful at the same time. And yay to Celebration!
@Lords of the Sith Podcast hey guys great podcast with a very interesting topic concerning the portrayal of masculinity in SW. Every guy that grew up with the OT seems to be infatuated with Han Solo because he seem to personify what it is to be macho although he showed his sentimental side around Leia and grew to adore Luke. Guys seem to like Luke because in the second and third OT he starting to really kick some ass and becoming a very capable force user and pretty much a God in the EU. With Anakin I think some people found him to be either very angsty or too whiny in the PT but not realizing Anakin really never grew up because he was away from his mother and he seem to be looking for something maternal in which he kinds of projected onto Padme which seems to be very Oedipal. However, in the clone wars we see a much different side to Anakin who exudes more confidence and machismo but still at times gave into his anger and angst. Now with Ben Solo/Kylo Ren he seems to me to be more of an enigma because like what Adam Driver said about him during some TFA press runs was that he's still unpolished but from a characteristic standpoint he seems to be more compassionate than we think. For instance, during his first scene on Jakku in TFA I think the reason why he had to make those "dark decisions" was because Lor Ser Tekka knew exactly who he was and if he would've kept talking he would've expose who Kylo Ren really was which was meant to be a secret from those in the galaxy. Second with the massacre of the villagers I think if Phasma had never initiated the question of what to do with them I don't think Ben's impulse would've been to kill them but of course its hard to tell without any internal dialogue or introspection from the TFA novel in that moment. Also if Ben really wanted to kill Finn when Finn hesitated and didn't fire his weapon on the villagers he could have easily done so which differs very much from what Darth Vader would've done because he would kill imperial officers if they showed the least bit of incompetence or failed him in any way. That stare down that Ben and Finn had with each other on Jakku it almost felt like Ben was empathizing with him or so I think. Please let me know your insight on this. In TFA after Rey and Kylo interrogation scene Kylo goes and tells Snoke that Rey isn't just some mere scavenger but that she is strong with the force and if you notice in his voice it seem to be in a different tone and raised a octave higher which differs very much from Kylo's low baritone like voice which if you ask me he was very excited to tell his master about his revelation of Rey but that's neither here nor there but anyway after that Hux comes in and blames Kylo for not securing the droid he then tells Snoke that the weapon was ready to be used to finally destroy the new republic that supports the resistance that sits in the Hosnian system and then Kylo insisted to Snoke that he can get the map from the girl if he just gives him another shot. In a earlier scene where Hux and Kylo are talking to a holographic Snoke, Hux brings up using the weapon on that very system, this is why Adam Driver is such a great actor because when Hux mentions it Kylo is wearing his mask but just by his body language you can tell he was uncomfortable with the suggestion. Now going back to Kylo trying to get the map from Rey he goes back to the interrogation room with his mask on and fists clinched but she has escaped and Kylo gets real angry we as the audience thinks it's just because Rey escapes which is true in a sense but it's deeper than that because that very system that the First Order destroys is actually where Ben Solo was born and from because the planet he was born on Chandrilla was the first capital of the New Republic and after the battle of Jakku was over and the galactic concordamce was signed , the new republic was established and Chandrilla was picked to be the new republic's capital for the time being Ben Solo was born on that same day . So that poetic cinema that George Lucas had talked about and how to follow SW its very subtle but it's there which is Ben Solo witnessing his planet being destroyed and billions dying as we saw in TFA parsing it with Ben's mother watching hers being destroyed in ANH. Another observation of Ben's compassion and I no I'm not crazy but after he tells Rey that she's not alone and the camera cuts back to him there are tears in his eyes which is something very sincere in his feelings towards Rey. Tell me if I'm wrong but in the throne room scene in TLJ as Kylo/Ben is surrounded by three prateroian guards as he gathers in his fighting stance he glances over at Rey fighting one of those guards and he see she gets cut and if you look real closely he seems to mouth off something very softly but it's hard to make out. However, based on some viewers take on it Kylo appear to be saying the words "hold on" if that is true this man is definetly amiable and to be honest I really can't see who's a better fit for Rey even by Snoke's admission they're equals. You guys podcasts and viewpoints remind me so much of these podcastsers who call themselves Girls With Sabers and they to discuss SW from a psychological perspective as well. As it relates to Kylo they have some videos that came to my mind when discussing this topic and Kylo's sensitive side. One of them is called A Heart of a Solo. Another one is the prideful gentleman you should give there channel a view or two if either of you can and fyi they're Reylos 😁😄.
Lots of ideas. Anyway, Kylo is upset about the destruction of the Hosnian System, and it's shown in his interaction with Snoke and in his body language when he watches SK base firing. Your other points are true too. Yeah, we know Girls with Sabers and they are awesome and lovely!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast thanks guys and yes GWS are quite lovely just like yourselves, but on another point Kylo is the Master of the Knights of Ren so he is essentially the head knight of that cohort and last time I checked knights aren't evil or carry out a malicious agenda given the history of what we know about them and plus it doesn't carry a negative connotation when people think of a knight. Plus from JJ Abrams input about Kylo’s costume design in the initials stages of TFA be was suppose to look like Phasma so in other words a "knight in shining armor" plus think about Batman's nickname and people love batman like Lee. So the very essence of who Ben is even when he uses his Kylo persona, is trying to be passionate and committed to a cause and as far as his "dark side" tendencies he represents what it is to be rebellious with the heart of it being towards his family and to Adam Driver's point "he only had one piece of information of where this story was going and its been in his head for these past 6 years". Could it be Ben's redemption I guess we would eventually see in episode 9. Have a good day guys ✌️.
Kylo Ren got more brains than Anakin, and to think his dad Han was a selfish jerk who turned out to be kind at heart as well, he probably got that from the Solo side of the family xD
34.49 - why Luke and not Leia? Answer - Leia was a politician and not a warrior. It's about the symbol - and also we see that Leia's appeal *fails* when the supposed allies in the Outer Rim refuse to answer EVEN with Leia's personal code. Leia's quest (like everyone's in TLJ) ends in partial failure - she's even handing over command at the end to Po Dameron. It is Luke's heroic (in the classical sense) stand against the forces of the First Order that will inspire the hero tales that spread throughout the Galaxy. Oddly, in a sense, Leia's approach is orderly and even impersonal - creating and running the organisation of the Resistance but this does not work in inspiring wider resistance. Luke's stand is individualistic and personal - his actions speak to the heart.
Yes, but it was the writer's choice to have Leia fail. In TFA we learn that even in Jakku (which is pretty much nowhere) Rey has heard of and admires the Resistance, so we can assume that the Resistance does inspire people. We had heros like Paige in the resistance. Having Luke as the one to inspire the new generation (even though I'm pretty sure there was no holonet transmission) is a choice based on the hero archetype, which happens to be a more "masculine" archetype.
Yes, the Resistance has been heard of on Jakku but given the absence of a Resistance infrastructure or even local sympathies (not in evidence), I would argue that the Resistance fails to inspire enough people to give it the basis of a popular movement. We can already see in TFA that its personnel are from Rebellion-era figures and their followings together with the more "republican" elements of the New Republic military. By contrast, the First Order are known and feared on Jakku (the novelisation makes it clear that the execution of the villagers was intended as a warning to other settlements not to resist). Paige is an interesting case. While her self-sacrifice is heroic, it's known only to the surviving members of the Resistance (about 14 people?). Furthermore, hers was one sacrifice amongst many in that short period of time. Remember virtually the entire fighter squadron is wiped out in two encounters (not including the losses suffered over Starkiller Base). The same is not necessarily true of Luke - I expect that the First Order would have broadcast that Luke Skywalker was dead on Crait - but that is speculation on my part! But his stand is so heroic (one stood against many - shades of Conan the Barbarian there! :D ) that news of it would eclipse everything else. There is also the element (as you've raised) of subconscious archetypes - the masculine hero-archetype fulfils a different role from the feminine. Leia enacts the mother-archetype, holding the family together, keeping everyone safe (including as far as she can from Poe's dangerous stunts!) but Luke is also following in the path set by his mentor, Obi Wan. Lastly, failure is the theme of the film. Everyone fails (as I've said before. :) ) Leia's failure is that her grand vision of a phoenix-like army of allies from the Outer Rim proves to be an ill-founded wish and without Luke or Rey, the Resistance would have been snuffed out in the death-trap of a mine. Yoda's message is that we must use failure to learn and every character learns (or dies) in TLJ. As usual, my over-lengthy thoughts! :)
I think Leia got more of Anakin's traits than Luke. The similarity she has with Padme is that they are both politicians and are good fighters. While Luke has more of Padme's compassion, calmness and vulnerability.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yea there was one of those stockholders meetings and someone on twitter talked about the few scenes that were shown - if you need help finding out about the scenes let me know and I’ll find it for u - there were a few scenes shown.
Lords of the Sith Podcast also it would be kind of cool if he picks up the helmet and touches it with his forehead and holds it there and he sees a vision of Vader or something like that - it would be cool to see a vision of him and Anakin together, not sure if we will see that or not.
@@sjs9869 yes, it sounds cool. I spent the day editing the video and was out of the loop on SW news... I'll try to find it. It definitely relates a lot to the topic we discussed here, and it will be an important moment for Ben.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Denise, here is a link describing the leaked footage: www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/ayggom/episode_ix_footage_leak_shareholders_compilation/
It didn't make it hard for me to identify that it was Luke, because he saw what the faults and follies of the Jedi truly were - look at Anakin and how Obi Wan and Yoda basically lied to Luke about him being Darth Vader/his father...The Jedi made Anakin leave his mother enslaved on tatooine, utterly failed him when it came to processing trauma and his emotions...telling him to basically bury them and forget about it. Leading him to hide and anguish in his pain because he couldn't be open and honest without judgement from his masters. AND Yoda was the one that didn't question the emergence of a random CLONE army being made but actually went to the planet they were being harvested and retrieved them to use them in battle. At that point in the prequels I was like what is he doing!?!? I mean think of the ethics of having a clone army built, and Yoda barely questions this; but instead uses them, plays into the hands of the emperor, and starts a galactic war. Not only does he start a galactic war, which leads to thousands of casualties, he also hides the fact that the Jedi use of the force is weakening... all of this eventually leads into Order 66 which kills all Jedi but Obi wan and Yoda. I mean no wonder Anakin thought the Jedi were evil, because at this point as Obi Wan says to Anakin at Mustufar, "Then you are truly lost." And I think that can double for not only Anakin, but the Jedi are truly lost as well. When I rewatched The Empire Strikes Back, it truly amazed me that Yoda wasn't more ashamed of himself and still never really learned the folly of his ways; judging by the advice he gave Luke. I imagine that when Luke was traveling the outer rims/ galaxy for more information about the Jedi and saw/learned all of this, he realized that maybe the people he deified were actually the people who did the most harm. And this is why we have Luke on Ahch-to, not just because he failed Ben, but because he too thought of himself as Yoda and Obi Wan think of themselves, that is a Jedi legend and therefore immune to fault...And it doesn't have to do necessarily with him having compassion and seeing the good still left in Darth Vader, but coming to the realization that the people/religion he looked up to helped in the creation of Darth Vader. Just as he played his part in the creation of Kylo Ren. I'd be pretty disillusioned.
Pop Culture Detective is a RUclips channel that covers a lot of stuff on masculinity, and he did an episode on The Last Jedi that I thought was incredibly thought provoking. I highly recommend it. It makes a compelling argument that TLJ is actually very feminist in the way that it deals with its male heroes. It doesn’t talk at all about Rey and Kylo Ren, but he’s promised to cover that in a future episode, so naturally I’ve subscribed to his channel. ;) Thanks again for more great content!
Excellent video! He also did one on "The Case Against the Jedi," which I also thought was spot on and has a lot of implications for the ST (inlcuding that every bitter thing Luke says about the Jedi Order in TLJ is true).
jp2187, yes! I saw that too, loved it. Definitely supports the assertion for a “Gray” path. PCD is a big Star Wars nerd, I’m sure. Pretty sure he’s a Reylo too! :)
I saw it, but I don't really agree with a lot of what he says, and I think it adds fuel to the fire that TLJ is about women being better than men or whatever (which is not feminism, by the way), But it's all a matter of interpretation, right? I think he believes that in TLJ, women lead men to become better... I don't know... I think it's an uncomfortable idea. We are going to comment more on those topics in the next part. That said, they are all valid interpretations, and sometimes it's about the way we respond emotionally to a movie.
Lords of the Sith Podcast, I can certainly see what could be uncomfortable about that idea-it’s not women’s job to make men better. I just really loved the points he made about a possible reason for some viewers’ vitriol against the film potentially being about their own discomfort with male heroes having to be put in their place by wiser women. That people’s subconscious issues with having to accept criticism or guidance from women may have gotten in the way of their ability to accept the women’s roles in the male heroes’ arcs, causing the women to be perceived as “bitchy”, overbearing, or that they think they’re better than the men. I didn’t see it as the brand of feminism where women are *better* than men. I actually think that people tend to overinflate the status of women in cases like this. Let’s see if I can explain what I mean here.... that when women perform the kind of acts of leadership that men do all the time (and no one bats an eyelash when the men do it-patriarchy is perceived as normal) the women are “feminist icons” or are being positioned as being superior when in fact, they’re just grasping for equal footing and respect. As though women don’t *deserve* the authority they’re exercising, so this must be some feminist agenda to emasculate all men or something. I’m not sure how well I’m communicating my point. (It’s hard to reread and make edits to my writing in the tiny comment box RUclips’s iPad platform allows...) Anyway, as much as TLJ sucked me in with the goodness of Reylo, I think the positive feminine portrayals had a lot to do with why I’ve become as obsessed with Star Wars as I have since TLJ came out. I’m constantly psychoanalyzing myself trying to figure how I managed to become such a dork over this whole thing, and so far, that’s the best diagnosis I’ve managed to come up with. Since I can’t reread your reply without submitting my own reply first (damn iPad!), I hope I covered everything I wanted to address in your response. I certainly appreciate that you took the time to give me a thoughtful, honest response to my original comment. This is the kind of civility that all internet disagreements should engender! :D Thanks again!
@@audreyperry9718 debating is fun. Yeah, I can see how it's a matter of perspective, and I can see how you'd appreciate a movie that has positive feminine characters. We weren't that enthusiastic about the feminine characters in TLJ, but on the other hand we loved the delicate and positive portrayal of Rey's sexual awakening. The whole approach to sexuality in TLJ was brilliant.
WHY WASNT I SUBBED. I have missed out. Binging all the videos. One thought: I thought sweet Luke appeared twice with R2 and with Leia. I loved the portrayal but I totally see where it missed the mark for you guys. #reylo
This is totally off topic but I hope Ben has a slightly shorter hair cut in 9 - so it looks a little more like the shot at 2:21 (even tho it’s the same hair length it just looks shorter the way it’s styled and maybe the angle - I have no idea why I care since I’m straight and a dude so I feel even more awkward then I did about making such an off topic comment
I think it is a bit shorter in that shot. It does looks good. Lol, the fact that you can make a comment about a guys' hair means you're secure in your masculinity. It's funny because we can talk about Rey's looks all day without any fear of how people will perceive us. Some double standards...
Lords of the Sith Podcast good point. Does go to show you how both sexes face different discrimination in the world and I truly believe we both have it equally bad in 2019 just in different ways. Thanks for the comment I appreciate it :). You’re right I am secure in it, I just never considered it. That’s interesting that it could be shorter in that shot, I think it would look great if that’s a fact and go with that length for the whole movie
It does seem pretty obvious that they used Luke to help character development and to provoke sympathy regarding Rey and Kylo instead of writing it into their story lines and leaving Luke's character alone. Perhaps Rian Johnson thought the audience would be more accepting of a tough hardened Luke vs. a cowardly Luke that had gotten scared and fled. Any way thanks for an interesting video!
I think the message meant to be sent at the end was simply that Luke’s death was not for nothing. But I wasn’t ever a fan of that ending either, and usually hit stop when I rewatch after Rey commiserated with Leia.
I hear what you guys are saying but I don't think there was any realistic way to show everything that happened OT and The Last Jedi because you're talking about a 30 year gap between the two (there was no way to fit that much material into one movie). Also, we did see a compassion/'feminine ' at the end of TLJ, he confronts Kylo not with violence but with non-violence while also showing him compassion by apologizing for failing him so many years ago.
He did show his compassion, sweetness and softness at the end with the reason he projected to Crait, and with his interaction with his sister, but it was very little. Had hermit Luke been a bit more Luke-like, it wouldn't have harmed the story. Either way, it's true that there was no way they could have focused o Luke's character arc in the ST.
I don't t know that anyone is asking to see everything that happened in the 30 year gap between OT and TLJ. That said, when you have a scene where Luke is shown about to kill Leia's child who was left in his care understandably some OT fans are going to be like ???????
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I don't think Luke showed very little compassion when he was at the Crait. He was very compassionate to Kylo in despite of what his done. Not to mention that Luke was NOT there to kill Kylo but only distract him. He answered Kylo's rage and aggression with non-violence and non-aggression. Isn't that the Luke we remembered?
@@rowangreenleaf Luke had a moment of weakness when he gave in to his "masculine impulses". But once he realized what he was doing he felt instance shame. Also, Luke about to kill his own nephew is reminiscent to when Luke almost killed his own father when Vader threaten Leia. Despite Luke's compassion he does have darker impulses when the people he cares about are threaten. Isn't that consistent to what we've seen before?
@@neosoontoretro Hello there! The problem I see with the comparison of Luke's behavior towards Vader and his behavior towards Ben Solo is that Vader was a villain and at the end of the day someone Luke had only just met who was also threatening his friend/sister Leia. They were also dueling at the time. It's extraordinary that he was able to restrain the impulse to destroy Vader in that situation, even if he was his dad. Not everyone would have been able to do that, and that's Luke's strength and defining trait. With Ben Solo, he's known this boy since he was a baby--it's Leia's baby--and a boy he is responsible for who hasn't even done anything bad yet. It's a kid who is sleeping. It's extraordinary that Luke (or ANYONE, actually) would even think to kill Leia's child in that situation. It's the same character taken to complete extremes with nothing to justify that except "Oh, people change over time." Of course people change, but it takes a lot to change core traits and we have no justification for it here. The movie is more than 2 hours long, if they had wanted to make this transition from OT Luke to ST Luke less jarring they could have added some scenes to give context or a background, but they didn't; I think the point WAS to shock people but they didn't realize how much of a backlash there would be to that. I think they thought badass!Luke at the end would make up for it. Also for me it's not just a moment of weakness, because Luke had already been looking at Ben with suspicion to get to that point. It was a complete failure of empathy that didn't just happen out of nowhere, but progressed to the point of almost murder of a kid. Like I said, I would find Luke's arc in TLJ awesome if I didn't have Luke in the OT to compare to. And I want to clarify here that I am glad that a lot of other SW fans did like Luke's arc in TLJ--I myself wish I could like it too. My goal in talking about this is not to get you or anyone else to DISLIKE it. I'm explaining where I'm coming from because I'm tired of being told that people who disliked Luke in TLJ are prejudiced against women or are too stupid to understand how storytelling works. And I really appreciate that you and the other people who disagree with me on this matter here aren't doing that. ^^
I know this isnt the right video for this comment, but the right video is in the force connections channel lol so here goes.. Has anyone else noticed that during the throne room fight scene only Kylo and Rey can be heard grunting, gasping, panting, yelling, and otherwise making verbal noises? I just find it interesting. I've watched other fight scenes with masked figures in a struggle or getting hurt and you can hear them through the mask..but not the praetorian guard. Funny, right? Are the praetorian guard canonically mute and I dont know about it? Cause if they were edited in PP to be quiet so the only sounds of struggle we hear are coming from Kylo and Rey that would be some delicious implications 😉
I think the ending was showing the power of myth , and the story changing once it got to canto bite . Luke wasn’t really there but the stories told are saying he was , and he’s like this beacon of hope for the resistance and the new rebellion .
He was! He was also there when he talked to Leia in the end and winked at C3P0 (which I learned was improvised by Mark Hamil). It was just very little compared to bitter, angry Luke. And yes, the ending has something about hope and symbols, which is neat in a way.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yeah , that makes sense . It’s such a massive shift in character . The trilogy seems like it needs more flashbacks for this story direction to really work with the long time fans. Especially for decisions like that. I think episode 9 will make us look at the whole trilogy in a different way , and it’s supposed to .
I fully agree about Luke his execution as a character a loved character was a huge disappointment for me even Liea showed some compassion for her son and so did han I mean they wanted him home but Luke lacked compassion for ben and In a way rey which was wrong I didn’t like that at all
I also wanted to agree about Ben being a virgin literal virgin because like you say you can have sex without attachment are love He is a virgin I think in the way that he wants rey and it’s the first time he’s wanted anyone that he also loves. Plus Ben was twenty nine years old . Of course many argue that he was Jedi so he was trained in that way and maybe he was when with Luke because Luke trained in the traditional way. But what about after I mean the dark side was never like that they did not take vows of celibacy and snoke was training ben in the dark ways so he may have not forbidden Ben a prostitute are courtesan if he wanted to have sex. After he went to him. After he was an adult.
Leia can't inspire those kids at the end because she is a general, and a general is not the type of character that is a inspiration to the imagination of a kid. Luke is a character from the fantasy and extraordinary aspect of the story, a wizard, he does extraordinary things, so in the eyes of a bunch of kids he is almost a super hero. This has nothing to do with Luke being a guy and only he matters, that's a very awful interpretation. Also, one of the three kids is a freaking girl playing with a toy and interested in a story that was supposed to be "only for boys".
Oh, we didn't say that TLJ is meant just for boys. It's more that RJ chooses the masculine hero archetype as inspiration at the end. The kids met Rose, and yet he finds the masculine archetype more interesting, like you. Even then, RJ could have had this masculine hero archetype with Rey. Rey is also a space wizard with a lightsaber and the so-called protagonist. Instead of Rey, RJ chose Luke, maybe to make up for hopeless Luke in the beginning. Either way, it's a symbolic choice.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Rose is not a space wizard and the kids never met or heard about Rey (yet). Luke is a myth, a legend, that's why he is more easy to kids take as an inspiration than Rose and Rey. Again, this has nothing to do with Luke being a man. He, alone, won against an entire army.
Who is saying the story is "only for boys"? And the kids obviously didn't have to be inspired by Leia or Rey because they didn't meet those women in TLJ. Rose is not a space wizard, but she is an ordinary woman who becomes a hero, one the kids met directly and witnessed doing something brave and important. The opportunity was there to highlight this as a source of inspiration and model to be emulated by the space kids, and if TLJ was really just feminine propaganda it would have been highlighted. Instead, they went for the usual phallocentric archetype and we commented on it. Obviously Luke is a legend so it doesn't matter if they haven't met him and he plays no direct role in their story. The funny thing is that TLJ goes out of its way to demystify and de-legendize Luke the entire time and then it's all good at the end because BroomBoi. The whole thing rang hollow to me.
@@rowangreenleaf Imply that you said TLJ was only for boys was not my intention. What I meant is that Luke being a man doesn't matter. Yes, he never met those kids at the end, but he don't need to have a direct relationship with them to inspire them, he is a legend. TLJ is not trying to destroy the legend of Luke Skywalker, it's just a more realistic take on it. Rose freed the Fathiers, Luke humiliated Kylo and the whole First Order alone and without violence. There is no comparison. It's an extraordinary act. It's like kids reading Superman or Wonder Woman comics. Or young Anakin talking about the Jedi with Qui-Gon. Complaining about Rian choosing the "masculine archetype" at the end is simplistic the same way as some people complain about TLJ being "feminist agenda"
the only feminine woman in The Last Jedi was Lovely in the Cantina....why aren't we picking Rey apart? On quora they are saying he's bisexual because there were no women at the temple. Good podcast, but as I'm not a follower of St. Luke, I had to go....
We have videos about Rey! Rey's psychology picks apart her character, including recognizing that viewers had issue with her character and explaining why. This is also sort of a sequel to a Star Wars Connection video that was really popular. The discussion on masculinity is important in medieval literature, which gets transposed to fantasy, and from there to space fantasy. But we do have content on Rey and on female characters in Star Wars.
When Rey walks up to Kylo in the elevator, he reminds me of a boy from high school who is super uncomfortable around girls because he has no idea what to do about it. Amazing acting!
My thought on Kylo and relationships has always been- how could he be physically or emotionally intimate with anyone when Snoke is in his mind? I think he's isolated himself.
You ladies are keeping me going until December. Thanks!
I thought it'd be easier for me to explain my points of view, if I arranged them like this:
1] In "The Force Awakens", Rey calls Kylo a creature. In "The Last Jedi", Snoke calls him a child. His mask is referred to in both moments. Each person hates the side of him they were seeing when they said those words, and Kylo hates BOTH sides but won't admit it. This shows the middle ground he needs to find to become a whole person, breaking fully free of the dark chains that have held him back for so long.
2] Luke and Han seemed to have swapped certain personality traits in these new movies. Han (at least to me), though he kept his sense of humor, he appeared to have mellowed out a lot since "Return of the Jedi". He was more open-minded, expressing to Rey and Finn his total belief in the Force, instead of continuing to call it a hokey religion. Even though he voiced some doubts about his son's redemption, we could still see the hope for that in his eyes. Luke was the exact opposite. He was cynical, dismissive, and constantly exhausted. Watching "The Last Jedi", I got the feeling that he'd developed a form of PTSD. Alterations in personality like that often happen to real-life soldiers. Comparing these two men could be a way of studying the different ways war can change people.
Good point about Kylo needing to find a middle ground between creature and child. Yeah, Luke with some PTSD would explain a bit of his behavior.
I wouldn't call it PTSD but grief. He comes across as someone grief-stricken (which was a lot of the speculation before TLJ). :)
Maybe it's the catholic upbringing, but Kylo's robe in TFA always reminded me of a cassock. Which meant a) it never struck me as feminine and b) Kylo totally gave off a celibate vibe
Omg "if it makes people angry it is a poor form of propaganda" What a great line.
As to the virgin thing, there is a very romantic notion in Star Wars that people are only attached to one person. Anakin and Padme, Han and Leia, Luke and Mara Jade, Obi-Wan and Satine. There is always just one special person. I think Han getting a young love interest in Solo is the only deviation from this but even then it was only one. So it just follows that if Ben is into Rey then there couldn't have been anyone before her just like there was no one for her.
Exactly. Overall, the Skywalker Saga romances-those big loves, first loves, true loves, soul mate loves-are pretty fairytale and innocent and coming-of-age.
Great insights! I tend to think Kylo Ren is a virgin. 😂
Hey! your podcasts are so interesting and refreshing. I always enjoy everything you have to say about Ben Solo/Kylo Ben, but in this podcast you also talked about my childhood crush, Luke Skywalker and the description you made is exactly the reason why I fell in love with him just like an entire generation. For me, he had the ending he deserved as one of the greatest Jedi. I still feel so emotional about it specially in the part that is understood how inspiring he was and still is for the people in that "galaxy far away". How he came back at least as a projection to comfort his sister, save the Resistance, give his nephew his final lesson and become one with the force. Thank you so much.
In terms of being a coming of age story I think the ST does a great job of covering sexual awakening (in a way that legitimately goes over kids’ heads) by using Force sensitivity/powers as a metaphor. So while I agree with Mary that canonically Ben is likely an actual virgin, on another level I don’t think that matters as much his experience “in the Force.”
Kylo is an extremely skilled and experienced swordsman, and as a talented and highly trained Force user is perfectly capable of teaching Rey “the ways of the Force” (which he does in both TFA and TLJ, although he gets off to a bit of a rocky start with his racy lightsaber lesson on Starkiller).
Along those lines, a layer Ben’s “fall to the dark side” in my opinion symbolizes his sexual corruption and loss of innocence/purity-largely by Snoke’s influence. (Leia’s line is “It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side.”) And while I don’t think Ben had an actual sexual relationship with Snoke, his relationship “in the Force” with his golden robed master who gives off a distinctly pedophilic vibe is really creepy and has those undertones. (I am so glad they cut that scene with Snoke touching Ben’s face, but they still filmed it).
In the ST there are also two lightsabers that belong to Ben, which as phallic symbols I believe represent the two paths for him as a sexually mature adult being: Anakin’s legacy/lineage lightsaber and his red Kylo Ren lightsaber.
The red lightsaber seems to represents his current corrupted sexuality. Incidentally, according to Wookiepedia here is where red kyber crystals come from:
“Kyber crystals were inherently attuned to the light side of the Force, and resisted any effort by dark-side practitioners to use them in lightsabers. To this end, a Sith or other dark-sider could use a kyber crystal only by using the Force to dominate the crystal, bending it to their will. This process caused the crystal to "bleed," as if it were a living organism, resulting in the distinctive crimson-bladed lightsabers synonymous with the Sith. It was possible to "heal" a corrupted kyber crystal . . . [in which case] the crystals turned white.”
I find that the symbolism of the coded as Eve and a captured princess, genderbent Kylo ending up with a cracked red (like apples, pomegranates, and blood) kyber crystal when he joins the First Order kicks up his relationship with Snoke to a whole new level of ick.
On the other hand, we have Anakin’s lightsaber representing the path Ben was/is supposed to follow as an adult man-as Anakin’s last heir he is supposed to carry on Anakin’s lineage. And the fact that Rey keeps ending up with the Skywalker legacy saber is a nice visual of the reality that without her Anakin’s bloodline is going to be broken (as his lightsaber currently is).
In a climate that is quick to demonizing masculine sexuality, I also really like that Ben’s attraction (including sexual attraction) to Rey is portrayed as a good thing that has a humanizing effect on him, and ends up being the crucial element in him getting away from Snoke (by killing him with Anakin’s lightsaber), and likely also in his eventual redemption.
“Returning to the Light” will, therefore, likely with result in Ben having a normal, loving, sexual relationship with Rey, and continuing what his grandfather really started-the Skywalker family.
As always enjoyed your discussion and would love to hear your thoughts.
That's a brilliant comment. Great points about his two lightsabers representing perhaps two sexual paths (and maybe two visions of masculinity), and we know which one Rey can't live without...
We've also commented a lot on how TLJ is portrays feminine sexuality in a positive light and how amazing that is, but it's true that it also portrays masculine sexuality in a positive light, which is incredibly amazing too. It's true that masculine sexuality is often demonized, and yet TLJ makes something beautiful and touching out of it.
Snoke's relationship with Ben has ickyness all over it...
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Two versions of masculinity, definitely! I think that is a great way to put it. And agree that TLJ did a good job of exploring masculinity, femininity, and the relationships between men in women in a really beautiful way that is unusual to see in a movies.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast The more I think about it, this discussion also makes me see Rey grabbing Kylo's red lightsaber in a new way, as she definitely experienced a loss of innocence on multiple levels in the throne room.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I would definitely say two paths of masculinity. I think they encompass more of the whole person.
Wonderful insight, especially regarding Snoke being killed by Anakin's saber and Ben continuing what Anakin really started, the Skywalker family. LOVE it.
Love getting your podcast before going to sleep ,ever since star wars connection! Xo
Yay, awesome, thanks.
I still think Ben is a virgin just because I don't see when he would have had sex under Snoke's control and he was too young before that. Like did he just sneak off with a kitchen staff girl and go back to his dark side training lol I just always thought of Jedi and Sith training as being like a Priesthood with no sexy times allowed.
Love listening to you. I have thought a lot about Ben/Kylo psychology....he is rejecting all types of male authority:his father( not present when needed) not offering emotional stability, his uncle not strong to support him, but failed to his own fears not trusting Ben enough, Snoke, a bullying manipulative predator....
I believe, in the end he will reject the last type of the male authority,Darth Vader, which is being overpowering so other people cannot exist healthily around him. Kylo is Ben's growing up into his own persona who will be able to take ownership for his actions, life and relationship with Rey.
Great comment. I'd love to see Force ghost Anakin show up and tell him, "Ben, you don't want to be like me."
Personally I do not want anybody tell him anything...I believe that he will be able to see events from the past( Anakin/Darth Vader).
Ben/Kylo should be able to make his own decisions of what's right or wrong then.
@@donkap8689 fair enough. I can see the benefits of that as well. I do hope to see Hayden back as Anakin, though.
@@gregoryb3793 oh, I would love to see Hayden/Anakin too.
I think with Ben's knowledge of history from Luke, Snoke and his own studies he would know that Vader's "weakness" was his love for Padme (later Luke). So I believe he would adopt a similar policy to the PT jedi, and would not form attachments or even physical intimacy.
Funny, because my understanding of the PT Jedi was that they could love, just not commit, meaning that there wasn't anything against non commited intimacy, unless it was a spin Anakin put on hoping it would entice Padme... Yeah, but Kylo is very reserved and closed off.
Its funny that people have such a hard time with Luke's arc. I was literally Luke in female form 40 years ago when it all started, and I got to tell you, it's much more realistic, and darn it, not in a bad way. He got older, smarter, and made mistakes just like me. You have to know the bitter to know the sweet. Full circle. REAL. The ones that pissed me off were Han and Leia. 40 years and they still can't communicate, screw up their son, and can't really be together Shesh. Ah, well. Love it all. REYLO Forever.
Yeah, Han's arc wasn't the greatest in the ST, and Han and Leia bickering all that time... With Luke, it would just be nice to see some of his sweetness or understand the transition to bitterness.
Carla, first of all thank you for sharing an opposing viewpoint without first having to attack people who disagree with you -- I can't tell you how refreshing that is, lol. The last time I said I didn't like how they handled Luke in the ST I was informed that I must not really be a woman and am a "bro" from 4chan or /r/pol pretending to be a girl. Anyway it's funny, I can see your points about Han and Leia but that didn't bother me at all. I guess it's because it's also true that sometimes people don't learn and grow, and it makes sense to me that they continued to be poor at communicating and when confronted with massive relationship problems they just regressed a little and threw themselves into what they were good at as an avoidance. And I hear what you're saying about Luke's arc being "real" but I just don't see it when he's seriously considering killing Leia's son. I can't accept it and I don't understand the decision to take that approach in the first place. I think that's part of why a lot of people rejected the arc. Anyway, we can definitely agree on Reylo forever.
@@rowangreenleaf I understand what you are saying. I can see why people are angry, but to me Luke did a very Luke thing. He was always a bit rash and quickly upset by some things. He said he could never kill his father, but in a rage, he did almost that. It was a very rash, emotional thing to do. And in this case, it was a rash, emotional, passing thought. He regained himself before carrying anything out, but it was too late. If you thought for a moment that someone you loved was going to kill a lot of people, even others that you love, and you saw those images, and they were horrific, you might for one instant think the same, no matter how hopeful you are. That's just my take. I like so many things about this storyline and don't like other parts. I would have liked to see a different type of universe, but I'm enjoying Reylo so much that I can't wish it any other way. I'm sure you've seen many a person say this, though. I'm glad we can agree on Reylo forever!
@@marydidyouknow5826 Reylos unite!
@@marydidyouknow5826 I completely agree with everything you said. To add another layer to Luke's "moment" I think he could have been left with a little PTSD from facing the Emperor too. The Emperor would have killed Luke if it wasn't for his father's intervention, so perhaps in seeing another great darkness in Ben he was triggered. Facing evil almost didn't work out for him in his youth and he became the hero saved by another unlikely hero. The idea of facing evil again in his later years, completely alone, no mentors to guide him, no father swoop in at the last second and save him, was probably terrifying.
I’m so glad that I found your channel on RUclips! What an interesting discussion. I even went back and watched your first video on Masculinity in The Force Awakens. I like that your opinions and predictions are back up with observations and facts. You make it really enjoyable and entertaining to listen. I enjoy that there are women who enjoy Star Wars. I’m glad that I’m not the only one. Keep it up!
What an awesome comment, thank you Amanda! Glad you're enjoying our episodes. ^^
I do think Ben idolizes Vader (not Anakin as JJ stated, which makes me think he knows exactly what happened and how he couldn’t finish the job at the end by killing Luke and why Snoke made him kill his dad) but I don’t think he’s necessarily a wannabe, because he wants to do thinks differently than Vader - he doesn’t believe in the Sith ways, he wants to do what Vader did and looks up to him, but also not make the “mistakes” he think Vader makes - if that makes sense to you. So I don’t see him as a wannabe, and more as a role model and the person he thinks he relates to most in his bloodline.
That makes sense.
The epilogue of The Last Jedi showed 'Broom Boy' with his broom looking at the stars, having just heard a story told about the amazing Luke Skywalker, and he saw the Millennium Falcon streak across the sky transitioning into hyperspace and we experienced it with him, watching our heroes flying to their destiny in IX.
30:00(ish) I always thought that the reason Luke cut himself off was so that Kylo (and Snoke) could not find him - we know that Snoke, Kylo and the Knights of Ren were looking for him.
Also, Luke's feminine side is evident when we get the final reveal about what happened at the Jedi temple. You can see that Luke has been struggling with the sense of his own failure and guilt, especially as he's afraid of his own father and feels that he's failed his sister's trust - after all, Ben is the only Skywalker child.
Always love your discussions👏👏Concerning Luke, the point is that he's lost his true self in TLJ due to his guilt, anger and pain so he reacts in an angry masculine way. But in the end he shows his feminine traits again when he accepts his failure and wants to heal, an absolutely feminine trait. He becomes his old self at the end when again he refuses to fight, it was beautiful.
Also, the point everyone refers to about how he saw the good in Vader but thought about killing his nephew, well Luke had no part in the creation of Vader, he never saw or was part of his downfall. Luke was pure there and just acted on faith because he wanted his hero dad back. Whereas with Ben he felt the ultimate responsibility, that he, the legend, the Jedi master let his nephew under his watch become a new Vader. Its the pain that Obi felt at the end of RotS. He reacted on his fear, his fear blinded him and led to his anger in that second. Just like it did in that moment when he cut off Vader's hand.
Idk but it all made sense to me and thought it was so well done when you think about it.
P.S. the broom boy makes me tear up at the end because I feel that Rey and Ben can create a better galaxy for children like him in the future. Its a personal headcanon😄
Accepting your failure and wanting to improve yourself is a feminine trait now? I should have expected no better after reading your channel name. And Luke didn't refuse to fight Vader, he threw his weapon away because he'd already won the fight. But I suppose there's also nothing masculine about showing mercy either, huh?
@@kingkwon8002 1. I said 'healing' is a feminine trait(when a man is in touch with his masculine and feminine traits he is the best man that he can be).
2. Having a problem with my tag shows that you're a pretty sensitive fella aren't you?
3. And regarding Luke refusing to cut down Vader I'm referring to the part where he lost control and cut his hand off but then regretted it. That was similar to what happened with Ben in the hut.
See you around kid.
enfysnest
1. It helps to reread your comments. You said Luke showed his feminine side by wanting to heal *and* by accepting his failure. Don’t know your definition of “healing” but Luke accepting his failure was a display of perseverance, a masculine trait. You could say that he finally “manned up.”
Also there are good and bad masculine/feminine traits, so your statement is only true if both a man’s masculine and feminine qualities are positive. And even then, probably most girls would prefer a masculine/feminine balance of 85/15 in men. Lmfao if you think it should be closer to 50/50
2. Sensitive, no, just wanted to lul at your taste in film.
3. Oh. Sorry, I get it now. Feminine women don’t lose control over their emotions. Gotcha.
Was that your mic drop moment?
I love this topic of masculinity. It seems our society is promoting effeminate men lately, yet no woman I know likes men like that. I do have to disagree on one opinion offered that Kylo has experience with women in the cardinal sense. Confidence does not mean a man is experienced sexually. He has immense power, which is enough to inspire the amount of confidence he has, which is still quite shaky. In fact, with the way that he treats her, his gentleness with her, and his personality in general, I'd say he's a man that does not give of himself so freely. Having sex is a vulnerable thing, intimate. And I don't see him being intimate with anyone else. Kylo is guarded, hidden. We get the sense that Rey is the first person, even among those he works with, who has seen his face in awhile. He certainly never showed Hux before he came upon him meeting with Snoke after he'd removed his helmet for Rey. And he had it on in the first meeting we saw with him and Snoke. This is a fairy tale. The hero in a fairy tale is the kind of man who honors one woman for life and doesn't dishonor others by using them. Love is seen as destiny and soul mates only give of themselves to the other. It's intended for kids, so romance is always a new awakening between both parties. The heroine is someone who stands out above all other women. She's the only one who has ever and will ever turn his head. His physical body and her physical body are honored, not treated like they are not sacred. Rey, also, though in a place where rape certainly would have happened before she could really learn to protect herself, is seen as innocent in this area. This is a Disney series, after all, and being for kids, they would not have written a story where other women have been in his life. It's an exciting fantasy, and I love seeing a storyline unfold that shows that no one else has ever turned the other's head. They are both the first one for the other, and it's spectacular!
Amy Unruh very well said!
Yes, the theory that Kylo is potentially a virgin makes sense, and that's why there even was a conversation between Rian Johnson and Adam Driver on whether he'd ever kissed anyone; it means it's not obvious. And there is some vulnerability in opening up physically. My personal opinion is that it's up to each person's interpretation.
It's not true that women don't like feminine men. The overwhelming response to Kylo in TFA should be a clue, for example. I think women like confident men (just like men like confident women), but that's different from being "feminine". A man who wears more "feminine" clothes, for example, displays confidence. Same thing with a man who isn't afraid to get in touch with his feelings. Back to SW, Luke in the OT was a lot of people's first crush, even if he was delicate and sweet or perhaps even because of that.
Also, I (Denise) absolutely love feminine men. Jewelry, long hair, care for appearance, soft voice, I think those are all very attractive traits, as well as emotional openness, gentleness, etc. I know a lot of women like that as well.
Wow, brilliant comment, brilliantly written. I couldn't agree more with everything you said and I'm so glad I'm not the only one with this opinion!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I'm going to preface this with an apology for being extremely long. I never saw Kylo as feminine at all. His costuming, even though long, is very masculine. In biblical times, in the regions written of, men all wear types of robes and Jewish men, at least, had longer hair, though not nearly as long as women's and that is only one small factor that distinguished the two apart. The closest thing men wore to pants was something that was worn under their robes and was considered underwear. The clothing was all very similar, with a few distinct differences. And the longer hair of the Jewish men doesn't seem to have elicited any commentary that they were feminine. These men would have been incredibly strong. The Egyptians knew that if these men outnumbered them, they would have no problem overpowering them. If anyone was more feminized, it was probably the Egyptians, who had become used to Jewish slaves doing the hard work and so had become soft. They may have looked a little more like our traditional view of a woman. In fact, they may have looked even softer than the Jewish women, who were seen as incredibly strong and hearty by the midwives.
Do you think that Roman men, who wore skirts, or Scottish men, who wore kilts, look feminine? To me, they are entirely masculine, moreso than many men today who wear pants.
American Indian men, also, have longer hair in many of the tribes. There aren't many that I see as feminine just because they have longer hair, even styled hair, unless they don't seem that masculine in mannerisms or body (not very muscular, softer). Kylo is in no way feminine, in my opinion, and as he exits his ship the first time we see him, he's commanding and his gait is entirely masculine to me. His costuming is designed to make him look intimidating, not feminine. When men wear longer coats today, I don't think they look like they are wearing dresses.
I do agree with you, entirely, on men getting in touch with their emotions, but I've never viewed this as feminine, just human. When it's viewed as feminine, men believe that acknowledging their emotions makes them like women, which is never something to be encouraged. Men's emotions are quite different than women's in many ways. They are unique to men, just as women's are unique to women. These differences should be celebrated when they are portrayed in a healthy manner. Women and men are different from one another. They are unique. Women were meant to do everything a man can't and vice versa. We cover the gaps for each other. Rey is a strong woman and she can fight, but that doesn't make her manly, nor does it make her manly that she's wearing an outfit that could easily be worn by a man, especially her outfit in the first part of TLJ. Especially when Kylo is with her, it is apparent that he's all man and she's all woman, at least in my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with our modern society's idea of what is masculine and feminine (not that I believe every one of those ideas is wrong) but what really is masculine and feminine. Luke was also my first crush (though not until the second movie), but I didn't see him as feminine or delicate (just young at first and then just smaller, though honestly, I didn't think that until I became an adult. I'm 43 and watched the first film when I was seven years old, several years after it first came out). He's a smaller man, which is where some of that thought may come from, and it's not overly apparent that he's a muscular man because of his stature and narrower shoulders, but he does have a lot of physical strength. Mark Hamill did a lot of his own stunts, and his muscles are prominently displayed while he's training with Yoda. And in my opinion, he didn't have the most confidence in the first two movies. He had arrogance for sure, but his confidence lacked in many areas, yet women still swooned. He does have a manner that's less commanding, overall, but not all men are the same and that doesn't make them less masculine. He's certainly more commanding when he's older, though. Just my opinion, though.
And just addressing the comment below, again, I don't think that any of those are what makes women women and men men. Not all women have gentler voices. In fact, those women with really strong, aggressive voices hate it when people call them manly. My daughter has a loud, assertive, sometimes aggressive voice, and she is rough and tumble, but I think it's wrong to classify these types of girls as Tomboys. It's as though they think women can only be soft and delicate. There are four main types of energy expression in people. Every person has a combination of all four, though they lead with one. There are some men who are softer and gentler, some who are more serious, some who are the most commanding and leading, and some who are bubbly and effervescent, love to talk, and may be more baby-faced. But all of these fit into masculinity. And we tend to be drawn to the opposite types of who we are. I, for example, am the bubbly, effervescent type, the type usually called cute over beautiful, and I was drawn to the more serious type of man, the kind who puts absolutely everything in a calendar, the complete opposite of me. If you are familiar with the Living Your Truth system, you'll have heard of these types. I think where we've erred is where we've ascribed only one or two types or just certain aspects of these types to being what is seen as masculine. Sorry to go on so long and to disagree with you. I just don't think that masculinity and femininity is as black and white as our society has made it. Anyway, have a great day. What I love is that we can disagree on something but in the end, we still love Star Wars and we still love Reylo. God bless.
Hello there!
Hello there! :)
TGIF ! How well begin a friday?! In watching you new podcast ❤️
Love to see you guys together again! Loved your perspective and humor!
Amazing as usual girls!😁😀😀😀
Thanks!
It seems that he is having Anakin's path reversed. Anakin was good but was full of anger and fear. Kylo first is angry and now he is growing into a pragmatic man who is compassionate towards Rey and wants to destroy what his grandfather stood for. Reversal path I imagine.
I agree Kylo Ren got more brains than Anakin, and his dad was a jerk who turned out to be kind at heart as well, so probably he got that from the Solo side of the family xD
You guys are awesome! I would listen to you girls talk in Star Wars Connection. I would love to join the discussion with you guys.
Star Wars Connection...now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...a long time...
@@gregoryb3793 They stopped making videos. They announced it on their last video they posted.
I know. I just saw an opportunity to bust out an Obi-Wan quote. ☺
@@gregoryb3793 Oh okay
I thought that Luke’s anger comes from his inability to stifle his fear - which Jedi are warned against - and because of that he ‘handed’ Ben over to Snoke. He knows he failed Ben and that failure tortures him.
Yes, that's a neat point-of-view, too. And it's interesting how he's angry, considering how anger leads to the dark side...
I always thought movie Anakin was much more feminine than TCW Anakin. I sorta thought that was done on purpose because movie Anakin turned off a lot of fans. I can remember a friend of mine when I was in my teens hated movie Anakin because he cried so much and he felt movie Anakin was made out to be a "bitch". It's interesting that because Kylo is so emotional now we hear a lot of fans saying the same things they said about movie Anakin about Kylo. Its obvious both Kylo and Anakin have these specific traits for a reason whether they be masculine or feminine traits. I dont think either character's story arcs would make sense if they didnt show some sort of emotional/feminine side to them. I grew up in a family that was allowed to show emotion and share how they feel no matter what sex you are. My brother is known to be a crier, but was his football team's MVP in highschool, so my perception of how a "real man" should be is different than how others perceive it. That being said I can totally understand how others fans may feel and how they may not like seeing a male character with some feminine traits, especially a villain.
Yeah, as far as I know they made TCW Anakin to "fix" Anakin. He has more masculine facial features and a deeper voice. Don't get me wrong, I love TCW Anakin, but I think movie Anakin makes a lot of sense, especially when contrasted with hyper-masculine Vader.
It's sad that some people still believe that men shouldn't express emotions, or that crying and being vulnerable makes someone less of a man and the backlash against those characters (Anakin in the PT and Kylo in TFA) shows some of these ideas.
Emotion isn't a female trait (it's a human trait) and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know real masculinity.
@@marydidyouknow5826 Absolutely. Unfortunately some people sometimes condemn emotional displays as not "masculine", which is absolutely ridiculous.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I completely agree. There are still some out there who were raised to not show emotion, that it's not "manly." I'm not sure where that idea came from.
I agree, I always imagined Anakin as a Thor-like formidable warrior before I watched PT and I remembered to be quite disappointed. Although, I'd like to argue the majority of the feminine traits of Anakin were primarily seen on the AtoC Anakin, in RotS he was much more matured and almost like a different person. I think TCW did a fantastic job in filling the gaps and showing just how Anakin transformed during the clone wars.
In my opinion Luke's bitterness and anger though is really directed at himself. That he lost that compassion, that softness that you may consider "feminine" when he acted in haste and fear with Kylo. His "masculinity" prevented him from being able to accept he made a mistake so it was easier for him to run away, cut himself off from the force and create a false narrative of what happened rather than admit he was not perfect. That's why he runs away because he lost the ideal he had about himself and the Jedi and I think that's why in the end he sacrifices himself rather than killing Kylo. I think that was a very compassionate act an quite a return to his feminine side rather than an act of masculine bravado even if he played with elements of it in the fight with Kylo. And I actually loved that they showed how even the most ideal people will fail with time and circumstances. I think that's why in some ways I love this trilogy more than the OG that I grew up in. Because there is an acknowledgement of the grey, of fallen heroes that even the OG really didn't touch on even with the pull between light and dark. Side note-it makes me sad how women are uncomfortable with the term feminist and are still so worried about what men will think about them if they use that term. Most of us guys are raised to value really fucked up toxic masculinity and confronting that is only going to help everyone but especially dudes. Feminism is one way to do that. It's only a threat to people that feel threaten not unlike how both Anakin and Luke act in haste and fear because of their dreams and projections not in what has actually happened.
You forgot to mention the fact that 'broom boy' looked into the night sky and watched all of the heroes of the new rebellion in the Millennium Falcon transition into hyperspace. Rian wanted all of us to see that.
Yeah, there is something beautiful about that ending...
4:55 ;_; Do you have like a... a cowl or something. (passes out and dies)
@Lords of the Sith Podcast - have y'all ever considered starting up a discord server? I'd love to see some of these conversations continue on in between videos. I have experience moderating a server if you would want any help.
Aha I've had bad experiences with Discord in the past! We do have a Facebook group though (I actually don't even have a Facebook account myself but still lol). Btw I haven't had a chance to read your other posts but will get to them tomorrow. It's pretty late here and I'm supposed to work in the morning meh
@@rowangreenleaf no worries. I also don't have Facebook. I deleted all of my social media. My life is much more peaceful without it. Lol. Outside of commenting on RUclips videos and chatting on discord, I have no online presence. I look forward to your response to my standard way-too-long post. It delves into some sociology as it relates to TLJ and why I believe many fans view it as a "feminist" statement, while I believe postmodern is the more accurate term. Anyways, great video. Look forward to chatting. Have a great night!
Will you be doing a podcast on the leaks from the disney shareholder meeting?
Maybe. We still have a couple episodes to edit...
You know kids catch only impressive things: the Battle of Luke Skywalker in more uncommon than a long-working general like Leia...but I thing when they will be adult, children must know the name of Leia and her contribution of Resistance.
Fair enough, and it is about the importance of heroic acts. RJ could also have Rey doing something impressive, right? Or something that also inspired the kids? Since in theory she should have been the protagonist.
Also, I’m pretty sure the Canto Bight kiddies were also impressed and inspired by Rose, considering that lingering close-up of Temiri’s (“Broom boy”) hand wearing the Rebellion/Resistance ring she gave him.
Lords of the Sith Podcast Her “lifting rocks” was pretty awe-inspiring to the remaining Resistance. But for the wider galaxy, Luke’s reputation already preceded him-hence books like “The Legends of Luke Skywalker”-and Canto Bight was his big, magical “last stand”. Rey and Ben will have their big, galaxy-shaking heroic moments next time...
@@freshPrincess626 hopefully!
oops, I meant *Crait was his “last stand” (altho you probably already figured that out).
I think TLJ Luke was perfect. He was right about the Jedi's failures, and then he failed too. Yoda and Obi lived in exile, too. So, there is sense that there is a price to be paid for being force sensitive. Finally, Luke gave his last moments to helping Rey and the Resistance escape, just as Obi Wan did for him. To me, it was bittersweet. So, basically, I'm good with it.
Luke's last moment was really cool, and it's neat you enjoyed Luke in TLJ. It's such an amazing movie visually, and if you really dig the plot and characterization, it can be fantastic!
No loss of hands, please!!! That’s so done. Lol. You all just clarified something for me with why some people have their childish hate of these sequels and it is the cave man masculinity they are missing in their bad guy. I have not understood this, glad to get it now. Not that makes me empathize with them but it’s good to finally get it. You all rock. Thank you!
What are you talking about ? Luke was so sweet in TLJ when he’s with Leia, that was the moment we saw him come back to those qualities when he was with her, he was the one who was hopeful to Leia, “no ones ever really gone.” He threw his Hail Mary projecting himself across the galaxy to try and reconcile what happened. Yay Denise is saying it!!!! Thank you Denise!!!! Yes he was angry at himself but he came back to who he was in the end.
Yeah, that moment with Leia was lovely and it was neat to see Luke as himself in the end.
Lords of the Sith Podcast I only say something because that is one of my favorite scenes in TLJ. Mark and Carrie were so beautiful in that moment and Mark did an incredible job acting in that scene. That’s my favorite Luke scene of all time now.
Lords of the Sith Podcast that was Luke’s journey in TLJ was to come back to that person he was, and if he can come back, then there’s hope that Ben can too. That’s why Luke says “no ones really ever gone” in the story right? He feels how true that is.
@@anthoneyrago I was not happy with Luke in TLJ, but I have to agree that his scene with Leia was beautiful and very well done.
Gregory B TLJ Luke was the most relatable for me. I understand some people have a hard time with it. I loved him in TLJ and that scene was impactful on so many levels.
Awesome video. A lot of interesting analysis, especially regarding Kylo. My difference of opinion though is with the idea that Luke's change was due to a conversion of feminine traits in the OT to masculine traits in the ST. Nothing about Luke stood out to me as masculine in TLJ. Nothing stood out to me as particularly feminine either. In TLJ, he was complacent, indecisive, selfish, and hopeless. He had become a curmudgeon who had done the one thing that Luke Skywalker would never do; give up. I don't think masculine vs. feminine is the proper angle to take when analyzing Luke in TLJ. I think the proper angle to take is one that may be somewhat...controversial...but since I've had several fruitful conversations with you that have largely been based on disagreements, I'm going to go for it.
Now, this kind of ties into what you were discussing at the end of the video regarding feminism, but I'm going to take a slightly different angle with it. A lot of criticism is levied at TLJ for being overtly feminist, and while I think there is *some* truth to that claim, I believe the better term to describe TLJ is that it was postmodern. Postmodernism is predicated on a mistrust of grand theories, historical canon, archetypes, etc....I think the most glaring example of this being put into play in TLJ is in the relationship between Luke and Rey and how it deviates from the traditional hero's journey.
In the OT, Luke went through what is probably the best modern representation of the hero's journey. In the ST, the traditional route would have been Rey taking the place of Luke, with Luke taking the place of Obi-Wan (or arguably Yoda, though I think Obi-Wan is the better fit). This process was subverted when Luke refused to train Rey. Instead of the hero rejecting the call to adventure (only to have a change of heart), it was the teacher rejecting the hero pleading for help. The only way to make this work within in the context of the story was to destroy the archetypes involved. The result of this is an assassination of Luke's character. As for Rey, the destruction of her hero archetype came in the form of her skipping the part of the journey where she learns from a teacher. She is able to perform incredible feats of power both physically and with the force despite having not learned to do so either through the wisdom of a teacher or even through the consequences of failure. This is where the controversial "Mary Sue" label comes in. Rey as a character has subverted the hero archetype at the expense of another character, in this case that character is Luke.
A basic tenant of postmodernism is to replace grand narrative with the notion that all history is simply about group power dynamics. This is where the connection with intersectional feminism can be found if one wants to find it. Now, let me first state that there is an incredibly significant difference between modern intersectional feminism and the feminism of the 60s and 70s. If we define feminism as the simple idea that men and women should have equal rights under the law, then I think the overwhelming majority of people, myself included, are feminists. Intersectional feminism however plays into the group power struggle theories of postmodernism, and finds the destruction of canon, archetypes, and traditional narratives key to achieving its purported goal of equity (not equality of opportunity...but *equity* in results) amongst all groups. A simpler way of explaining this is that it is essentially Marxism, but with immutable identity characteristics such as race, gender, or sexual preference replacing economic classes. Old school feminism is basically the sex-based equivalent of MLK's views on race: that we should *all* be united by common humanity, and viewed as individuals that are judged by our character. This new wave intersectional feminism is about uniting women and minority groups against a common enemy (typically straight white men, the "Patriarchy," or any group perceived to have more power), and that individuality should be discarded in deference to collective identity.
Some people looked at TLJ and saw these tenants of intersectional feminism playing out. I could go through many examples, but I'll stick with the one relevant to this conversation which is that the dynamic between Rey and Luke *could* be taken as a woman not needing the help of the Patriarch. I'm not saying that this is correct, but this is how some people see it. A lot of the "strong female lead" marketing around the ST, as well as incidents like Kathleen Kennedy wearing a shirt that says "the Force is female," haven't done much to ease the concerns of people who think that this is the case.
I think there are arguments both for and against the idea that TLJ was film that had intersectional feminism in mind. I think the stronger argument is that it was postmodern, and as such was more interested in subverting canon and archetypes. When this postmodern emphasis is combined with efforts to increase diversity with an emphasis on "strong" women who outshine the men, it gives it the appearance of intersectional feminism. Rian Johnson may have been pushing intersectionality in it, but I don't think the evidence is as strong for that as it is for a postmodern disdain of Western literary canon. Either way, I believe the main issue many fans had with the male characters is that they were largely shown to be either incompetent, unhinged, or cowardly. Men respect the hell out of competence in particular. It was quite jarring to see many of the male characters portrayed as incompetent (Finn, Hux), cowardly (Finn, Luke), or unhinged (Kylo, Poe). Also, the most competent male character, Poe, was berated for his competence (by characters who happened to be female, fueling some fan's feeling that this was about intersectional feminism).
Anyways, those are my thoughts on that. I watch you girls routinely do a great job with the psychology angle, I figured I could dust off my degree in sociology and flex my knowledge a bit on that topic. I tried to stay as neutral as I could while going through all of that. The only thing I'll say in terms of my opinion on the matter is that while the film is definitely postmodern in nature, I think the fans that call TLJ feminist propaganda, while they raise some valid criticism, are overreacting. Likewise, I think the fans that dismiss the idea that *any* intersectional feminist messaging was present in the film are maybe being too lenient and possibly biased depending on their own views. In other words, I think both sides have some valid points, and the answer is somewhere in the middle. Either way, I think Disney's only true agenda was to make money, and any messaging that is or is not in the film is a result of what they felt would be most profitable.
Again, awesome video, and I look forward to the next one (as well as discussing this more if you wish)!
Well, on Luke, he didn't have either positive traditionally "feminine" or "masculine" traits in the beginning of TLJ. He was also missing some of his softer qualities traditionally considered feminine. This is an important conversation because the common criticism to TLJ haters who didn't like Luke in it is that they are sexist. But then, if you think that many TLJ haters missed Luke's softness, kindness, gentleness, it does put a spin on things, right? As a viewer, I missed soft, sweet Luke, because it was the Luke I fell in love with as a child (I literally had a crush). I think it's a point that's often overlooked.
I agree with the definition of postmodern to TLJ. RJ did set out to defy and frustrate expectations, but fiction is all about managing audience's expectations. Defying expectations is good, frustrating expectations is not something a writer should do.
Poe and Holdo is a complicated conversation because many women were also offended by Poe. Having a subplot upsetting a lot of the audience is more due to poor writing, in my opinion. Had the message been clear and been worked well in the movie, it shouldn't upset people. We are going to talk about it in the next episode, but it's a difficult topic.
Not all men in TLJ were incompetent. Kylo was very competent (killed Snoke), Luke was competent (saver his sister while at the same time not hurting his nephew), but only in the end, and it might have been too little too late. Finn's arc was frustrating, for sure, but it was Rose's arc as well, and the whole idea was Rose's. So we have an incompetent couple. I think seeing characters fail is uncomfortable in general. That said, the so-called protagonist of the trilogy was pushed aside for the second epilogue of the movie. It makes sense because Luke/Kylo had to happen, but Rey could have been more important, and she's a female character. Leia was pushed aside to give Poe leadership in the end. It makes sense as part of Poe walking in her steps, as a way to complete Poe's arc, etc. Still, we should have focused on Leia's reaction to Kylo showing up, not on Poe's reaction. I really think it's rather bad writing than some kind of attempt at a feminist message. I don't think Disney gave RJ a message. If there was a message, maybe it was for strong women and romance to attract more female viewers. I think RJ did the romance well, considering the narrative constraints, but I don't think the women were that great. I also don't think female viewers go to the movies to see incompetent heros regardless of their gender, so I don't think Disney would have had an agenda to make male heros incompetent. I think the mistake was in not appointing an older, experienced screenwriter as a mentor to RJ.
I think intersectional feminism should be about recognizing race and social differences other than just gender differences, and I think it's a good thing. That said, there's no bar exam to declare yourself a feminist, so it can be definitely distorted. Are there people using feminism as a justification to hateful behaviors? Yes. Is that real feminism, even intersectional feminism? I don't think so. But who's to judge, right? So I see your point. Plus, in a time of Twitter and its pitchfork mobs, feminism and other noble causes are sometimes claimed as justifications for some far-from-great behaviors.
This was a tricky episode to record. The first one, on TFA, was already scary. We were worried that people would be offended about two women talking about masculinity, but thankfully viewers understood that we were tackling tropes, etc, and it was important to tackle it because it's such an important theme in SW and in TFA. It was mostly fine. Viewers asked for an update after TLJ, but TLJ can be such a loaded topic because of the perceptions of gender dynamics in the movie and because of the division in opinions about the movie.
I'd also add that in the Original Trilogy, Luke is perfectly capable of being indecisive or giving up.
He does this at first in ANH, only accepting the call to adventure when his family have been murdered (burnt bridge).
He does it (effectively) between ANH and ESB by concentrating on his material world (Rebellion officer and pilot) rather than his spiritual calling (Jedi), which was after all the critical element in the destruction of the Death Star.
He does it again when Yoda rebukes him for lack of faith following his failure to Force-Pull the X-Wing out from the Dagobah swamp. There, he gives up and sulks, only to shamed by Yoda's calm demonstration into resuming his training.
Then, instead of sulking, he rushes off like an idiot (despite BOTH teachers telling him not to go) to confront Vader and almost destroys everything.
As for cowardly, I wouldn't put Acht-To down as cowardly. His sense of guilt over what happened, together with a sense of failure at the loss of Ben to the Dark Side (backed up by his companions and Snoke) can only have presented Luke with a terrible choice - stay and almost certainly die - or flee and try to work out what the hell just happened.
Luke also bravely faces up to the failures of Jedi tenets, even if he takes too much of the counsel of despair. What he said to Rey, "At the height of their power, the Jedi allowed Darth Sideous to rise, create the Empire and destroy them" is harsh but true. He's seen the failure of the Jedi but he's not (yet) found a path of reform.
All heroes (and Luke remains one) go through periods of spiritual death. Luke fled to Acht-To to try and recover his strength, thought he had lost it and found at the end that he had enough to make the right choice.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I know that these cultural angles can be difficult to discuss, so first I want to thank you for the opportunity to have such a civil discussion about. As you mentioned, the current climate of the internet does not tend to foster productive discussion about these types of topics/issues.
Please keep in mind that part of goal with the original post was to actually push back against the idea that the film was some type of feminist propaganda while still acknowledging some of the commonly brought up reasons that others will use to claim that it is. I feel very strongly about the idea that I have no business arguing one side of an issue if I cannot atleast make a good faith attempt to understand the opposing view. Additionally, I can understand why people would be turned off by any intersectional feminist messaging in Star Wars. I hate to use an appeal to authority argument here, but I spent a significant amount time studying intersectionality, postmodernism, and other modern sociological tenants while getting my degree in sociology. The doctrines coming out of the humanities are not what they used to be, and concepts like intersectionality are far too similar to Marxism for me to find any value in them that could possibly outweigh the dangers. I'm a very liberal person when it comes to social issues, but the left end of the spectrum can go too far, and the literature on intersectionality I studied was anything but liberal.
Anyways, I get that there are counters to the criticisms about male characters in TLJ. Incompetence doesn't describe all of them. Certainly Kylo displayed a high level of competence when he killed Snoke, but he was also wildly inconsistent as a character and alternated between moments of extreme competence and being totally unhinged. I personally like that about Kylo, but I completely understand why that doesn't work for a lot of people. As for Poe and Holdo, I just think that entire arc was poorly conceptualized. I'm sure somebody can find gender politics in that if they want to, but my honest analysis is that it was just poorly done. I have far my issue with the hyperspace ram than any gender tropes between Holdo and Poe.
Anyways, thanks again for a calm, open minded environment to discuss these ideas in! Its always a pleasure talking to y'all!
Good morning from Poland! 😊
I don't think Luke had abandoned his feminine energy, I could still see it, but I do think that he suppressed his anger/masculine energy for too long instead of dealing with it in healthy ways, and when you do that your "dark side" can come out pretty negatively. But in the end, you find a balance as neither extreme is healthy, which is a lot of what this trilogy is about (very Jungian)! Luke had a right to have some dissolution with the Jedi order, I think we can all agree on that. And I find his commitment to non-violence to be exactly in character for him. Most people I spoke with that were mad wanted a "badass" Luke trashing some fools. THAT would not have been in character. It also worked with the narrative of not everyone is all "bad" or all "good." I didn't mind broomboy, but it would have been nice to hear them bringing up some other inspiring peeps too, I agree. Always interesting to hear others POV. Thanks, guys! PS: Celebration is almost here!!!!
Oh yeah, if he tried the path of the PT jedi that could have messed him up. Yeah, badass Luke trashing people doesn't make any sense. I didn't hear that, though. Luke in Crait was neat because he got to be badass and peaceful at the same time. And yay to Celebration!
@Lords of the Sith Podcast hey guys great podcast with a very interesting topic concerning the portrayal of masculinity in SW. Every guy that grew up with the OT seems to be infatuated with Han Solo because he seem to personify what it is to be macho although he showed his sentimental side around Leia and grew to adore Luke. Guys seem to like Luke because in the second and third OT he starting to really kick some ass and becoming a very capable force user and pretty much a God in the EU. With Anakin I think some people found him to be either very angsty or too whiny in the PT but not realizing Anakin really never grew up because he was away from his mother and he seem to be looking for something maternal in which he kinds of projected onto Padme which seems to be very Oedipal. However, in the clone wars we see a much different side to Anakin who exudes more confidence and machismo but still at times gave into his anger and angst. Now with Ben Solo/Kylo Ren he seems to me to be more of an enigma because like what Adam Driver said about him during some TFA press runs was that he's still unpolished but from a characteristic standpoint he seems to be more compassionate than we think. For instance, during his first scene on Jakku in TFA I think the reason why he had to make those "dark decisions" was because Lor Ser Tekka knew exactly who he was and if he would've kept talking he would've expose who Kylo Ren really was which was meant to be a secret from those in the galaxy. Second with the massacre of the villagers I think if Phasma had never initiated the question of what to do with them I don't think Ben's impulse would've been to kill them but of course its hard to tell without any internal dialogue or introspection from the TFA novel in that moment. Also if Ben really wanted to kill Finn when Finn hesitated and didn't fire his weapon on the villagers he could have easily done so which differs very much from what Darth Vader would've done because he would kill imperial officers if they showed the least bit of incompetence or failed him in any way. That stare down that Ben and Finn had with each other on Jakku it almost felt like Ben was empathizing with him or so I think.
Please let me know your insight on this. In TFA after Rey and Kylo interrogation scene Kylo goes and tells Snoke that Rey isn't just some mere scavenger but that she is strong with the force and if you notice in his voice it seem to be in a different tone and raised a octave higher which differs very much from Kylo's low baritone like voice which if you ask me he was very excited to tell his master about his revelation of Rey but that's neither here nor there but anyway after that Hux comes in and blames Kylo for not securing the droid he then tells Snoke that the weapon was ready to be used to finally destroy the new republic that supports the resistance that sits in the Hosnian system and then Kylo insisted to Snoke that he can get the map from the girl if he just gives him another shot. In a earlier scene where Hux and Kylo are talking to a holographic Snoke, Hux brings up using the weapon on that very system, this is why Adam Driver is such a great actor because when Hux mentions it Kylo is wearing his mask but just by his body language you can tell he was uncomfortable with the suggestion. Now going back to Kylo trying to get the map from Rey he goes back to the interrogation room with his mask on and fists clinched but she has escaped and Kylo gets real angry we as the audience thinks it's just because Rey escapes which is true in a sense but it's deeper than that because that very system that the First Order destroys is actually where Ben Solo was born and from because the planet he was born on Chandrilla was the first capital of the New Republic and after the battle of Jakku was over and the galactic concordamce was signed , the new republic was established and Chandrilla was picked to be the new republic's capital for the time being Ben Solo was born on that same day . So that poetic cinema that George Lucas had talked about and how to follow SW its very subtle but it's there which is Ben Solo witnessing his planet being destroyed and billions dying as we saw in TFA parsing it with Ben's mother watching hers being destroyed in ANH.
Another observation of Ben's compassion and I no I'm not crazy but after he tells Rey that she's not alone and the camera cuts back to him there are tears in his eyes which is something very sincere in his feelings towards Rey. Tell me if I'm wrong but in the throne room scene in TLJ as Kylo/Ben is surrounded by three prateroian guards as he gathers in his fighting stance he glances over at Rey fighting one of those guards and he see she gets cut and if you look real closely he seems to mouth off something very softly but it's hard to make out. However, based on some viewers take on it Kylo appear to be saying the words "hold on" if that is true this man is definetly amiable and to be honest I really can't see who's a better fit for Rey even by Snoke's admission they're equals.
You guys podcasts and viewpoints remind me so much of these podcastsers who call themselves Girls With Sabers and they to discuss SW from a psychological perspective as well. As it relates to Kylo they have some videos that came to my mind when discussing this topic and Kylo's sensitive side. One of them is called A Heart of a Solo. Another one is the prideful gentleman you should give there channel a view or two if either of you can and fyi they're Reylos 😁😄.
Lots of ideas. Anyway, Kylo is upset about the destruction of the Hosnian System, and it's shown in his interaction with Snoke and in his body language when he watches SK base firing. Your other points are true too.
Yeah, we know Girls with Sabers and they are awesome and lovely!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast thanks guys and yes GWS are quite lovely just like yourselves, but on another point Kylo is the Master of the Knights of Ren so he is essentially the head knight of that cohort and last time I checked knights aren't evil or carry out a malicious agenda given the history of what we know about them and plus it doesn't carry a negative connotation when people think of a knight. Plus from JJ Abrams input about Kylo’s costume design in the initials stages of TFA be was suppose to look like Phasma so in other words a "knight in shining armor" plus think about Batman's nickname and people love batman like Lee. So the very essence of who Ben is even when he uses his Kylo persona, is trying to be passionate and committed to a cause and as far as his "dark side" tendencies he represents what it is to be rebellious with the heart of it being towards his family and to Adam Driver's point "he only had one piece of information of where this story was going and its been in his head for these past 6 years". Could it be Ben's redemption I guess we would eventually see in episode 9. Have a good day guys ✌️.
Kylo Ren got more brains than Anakin, and to think his dad Han was a selfish jerk who turned out to be kind at heart as well, he probably got that from the Solo side of the family xD
34.49 - why Luke and not Leia? Answer - Leia was a politician and not a warrior. It's about the symbol - and also we see that Leia's appeal *fails* when the supposed allies in the Outer Rim refuse to answer EVEN with Leia's personal code.
Leia's quest (like everyone's in TLJ) ends in partial failure - she's even handing over command at the end to Po Dameron.
It is Luke's heroic (in the classical sense) stand against the forces of the First Order that will inspire the hero tales that spread throughout the Galaxy. Oddly, in a sense, Leia's approach is orderly and even impersonal - creating and running the organisation of the Resistance but this does not work in inspiring wider resistance. Luke's stand is individualistic and personal - his actions speak to the heart.
The Resistance also escape thanks to Luke's five minutes.
Yes, but it was the writer's choice to have Leia fail. In TFA we learn that even in Jakku (which is pretty much nowhere) Rey has heard of and admires the Resistance, so we can assume that the Resistance does inspire people. We had heros like Paige in the resistance. Having Luke as the one to inspire the new generation (even though I'm pretty sure there was no holonet transmission) is a choice based on the hero archetype, which happens to be a more "masculine" archetype.
Yes, the Resistance has been heard of on Jakku but given the absence of a Resistance infrastructure or even local sympathies (not in evidence), I would argue that the Resistance fails to inspire enough people to give it the basis of a popular movement.
We can already see in TFA that its personnel are from Rebellion-era figures and their followings together with the more "republican" elements of the New Republic military.
By contrast, the First Order are known and feared on Jakku (the novelisation makes it clear that the execution of the villagers was intended as a warning to other settlements not to resist).
Paige is an interesting case. While her self-sacrifice is heroic, it's known only to the surviving members of the Resistance (about 14 people?). Furthermore, hers was one sacrifice amongst many in that short period of time. Remember virtually the entire fighter squadron is wiped out in two encounters (not including the losses suffered over Starkiller Base).
The same is not necessarily true of Luke - I expect that the First Order would have broadcast that Luke Skywalker was dead on Crait - but that is speculation on my part!
But his stand is so heroic (one stood against many - shades of Conan the Barbarian there! :D ) that news of it would eclipse everything else.
There is also the element (as you've raised) of subconscious archetypes - the masculine hero-archetype fulfils a different role from the feminine.
Leia enacts the mother-archetype, holding the family together, keeping everyone safe (including as far as she can from Poe's dangerous stunts!) but Luke is also following in the path set by his mentor, Obi Wan.
Lastly, failure is the theme of the film. Everyone fails (as I've said before. :) ) Leia's failure is that her grand vision of a phoenix-like army of allies from the Outer Rim proves to be an ill-founded wish and without Luke or Rey, the Resistance would have been snuffed out in the death-trap of a mine.
Yoda's message is that we must use failure to learn and every character learns (or dies) in TLJ.
As usual, my over-lengthy thoughts! :)
I think Leia got more of Anakin's traits than Luke. The similarity she has with Padme is that they are both politicians and are good fighters. While Luke has more of Padme's compassion, calmness and vulnerability.
Did u guys hear how there’s going to be a scene with Ben and the Vader helmet again in a new room/ship? And bens helmet is off
No. We need to check it out. Kylo needs to go full circle with his Vader obsession and another scene with a helmet would be cool.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yea there was one of those stockholders meetings and someone on twitter talked about the few scenes that were shown - if you need help finding out about the scenes let me know and I’ll find it for u - there were a few scenes shown.
Lords of the Sith Podcast also it would be kind of cool if he picks up the helmet and touches it with his forehead and holds it there and he sees a vision of Vader or something like that - it would be cool to see a vision of him and Anakin together, not sure if we will see that or not.
@@sjs9869 yes, it sounds cool. I spent the day editing the video and was out of the loop on SW news... I'll try to find it. It definitely relates a lot to the topic we discussed here, and it will be an important moment for Ben.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Denise, here is a link describing the leaked footage: www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/ayggom/episode_ix_footage_leak_shareholders_compilation/
It didn't make it hard for me to identify that it was Luke, because he saw what the faults and follies of the Jedi truly were - look at Anakin and how Obi Wan and Yoda basically lied to Luke about him being Darth Vader/his father...The Jedi made Anakin leave his mother enslaved on tatooine, utterly failed him when it came to processing trauma and his emotions...telling him to basically bury them and forget about it. Leading him to hide and anguish in his pain because he couldn't be open and honest without judgement from his masters. AND Yoda was the one that didn't question the emergence of a random CLONE army being made but actually went to the planet they were being harvested and retrieved them to use them in battle. At that point in the prequels I was like what is he doing!?!? I mean think of the ethics of having a clone army built, and Yoda barely questions this; but instead uses them, plays into the hands of the emperor, and starts a galactic war. Not only does he start a galactic war, which leads to thousands of casualties, he also hides the fact that the Jedi use of the force is weakening... all of this eventually leads into Order 66 which kills all Jedi but Obi wan and Yoda. I mean no wonder Anakin thought the Jedi were evil, because at this point as Obi Wan says to Anakin at Mustufar, "Then you are truly lost." And I think that can double for not only Anakin, but the Jedi are truly lost as well. When I rewatched The Empire Strikes Back, it truly amazed me that Yoda wasn't more ashamed of himself and still never really learned the folly of his ways; judging by the advice he gave Luke. I imagine that when Luke was traveling the outer rims/ galaxy for more information about the Jedi and saw/learned all of this, he realized that maybe the people he deified were actually the people who did the most harm. And this is why we have Luke on Ahch-to, not just because he failed Ben, but because he too thought of himself as Yoda and Obi Wan think of themselves, that is a Jedi legend and therefore immune to fault...And it doesn't have to do necessarily with him having compassion and seeing the good still left in Darth Vader, but coming to the realization that the people/religion he looked up to helped in the creation of Darth Vader. Just as he played his part in the creation of Kylo Ren. I'd be pretty disillusioned.
Pop Culture Detective is a RUclips channel that covers a lot of stuff on masculinity, and he did an episode on The Last Jedi that I thought was incredibly thought provoking. I highly recommend it. It makes a compelling argument that TLJ is actually very feminist in the way that it deals with its male heroes. It doesn’t talk at all about Rey and Kylo Ren, but he’s promised to cover that in a future episode, so naturally I’ve subscribed to his channel. ;)
Thanks again for more great content!
Excellent video! He also did one on "The Case Against the Jedi," which I also thought was spot on and has a lot of implications for the ST (inlcuding that every bitter thing Luke says about the Jedi Order in TLJ is true).
jp2187, yes! I saw that too, loved it. Definitely supports the assertion for a “Gray” path. PCD is a big Star Wars nerd, I’m sure. Pretty sure he’s a Reylo too! :)
I saw it, but I don't really agree with a lot of what he says, and I think it adds fuel to the fire that TLJ is about women being better than men or whatever (which is not feminism, by the way), But it's all a matter of interpretation, right? I think he believes that in TLJ, women lead men to become better... I don't know... I think it's an uncomfortable idea. We are going to comment more on those topics in the next part. That said, they are all valid interpretations, and sometimes it's about the way we respond emotionally to a movie.
Lords of the Sith Podcast, I can certainly see what could be uncomfortable about that idea-it’s not women’s job to make men better. I just really loved the points he made about a possible reason for some viewers’ vitriol against the film potentially being about their own discomfort with male heroes having to be put in their place by wiser women. That people’s subconscious issues with having to accept criticism or guidance from women may have gotten in the way of their ability to accept the women’s roles in the male heroes’ arcs, causing the women to be perceived as “bitchy”, overbearing, or that they think they’re better than the men. I didn’t see it as the brand of feminism where women are *better* than men. I actually think that people tend to overinflate the status of women in cases like this. Let’s see if I can explain what I mean here.... that when women perform the kind of acts of leadership that men do all the time (and no one bats an eyelash when the men do it-patriarchy is perceived as normal) the women are “feminist icons” or are being positioned as being superior when in fact, they’re just grasping for equal footing and respect. As though women don’t *deserve* the authority they’re exercising, so this must be some feminist agenda to emasculate all men or something. I’m not sure how well I’m communicating my point. (It’s hard to reread and make edits to my writing in the tiny comment box RUclips’s iPad platform allows...)
Anyway, as much as TLJ sucked me in with the goodness of Reylo, I think the positive feminine portrayals had a lot to do with why I’ve become as obsessed with Star Wars as I have since TLJ came out. I’m constantly psychoanalyzing myself trying to figure how I managed to become such a dork over this whole thing, and so far, that’s the best diagnosis I’ve managed to come up with.
Since I can’t reread your reply without submitting my own reply first (damn iPad!), I hope I covered everything I wanted to address in your response. I certainly appreciate that you took the time to give me a thoughtful, honest response to my original comment. This is the kind of civility that all internet disagreements should engender! :D
Thanks again!
@@audreyperry9718 debating is fun. Yeah, I can see how it's a matter of perspective, and I can see how you'd appreciate a movie that has positive feminine characters. We weren't that enthusiastic about the feminine characters in TLJ, but on the other hand we loved the delicate and positive portrayal of Rey's sexual awakening. The whole approach to sexuality in TLJ was brilliant.
Very interesting, as usual!
WHY WASNT I SUBBED. I have missed out. Binging all the videos.
One thought: I thought sweet Luke appeared twice with R2 and with Leia. I loved the portrayal but I totally see where it missed the mark for you guys. #reylo
Thanks! We also need to check you out!
This is totally off topic but I hope Ben has a slightly shorter hair cut in 9 - so it looks a little more like the shot at 2:21 (even tho it’s the same hair length it just looks shorter the way it’s styled and maybe the angle - I have no idea why I care since I’m straight and a dude so I feel even more awkward then I did about making such an off topic comment
I think it is a bit shorter in that shot. It does looks good.
Lol, the fact that you can make a comment about a guys' hair means you're secure in your masculinity. It's funny because we can talk about Rey's looks all day without any fear of how people will perceive us. Some double standards...
Lords of the Sith Podcast good point. Does go to show you how both sexes face different discrimination in the world and I truly believe we both have it equally bad in 2019 just in different ways. Thanks for the comment I appreciate it :). You’re right I am secure in it, I just never considered it. That’s interesting that it could be shorter in that shot, I think it would look great if that’s a fact and go with that length for the whole movie
It does seem pretty obvious that they used Luke to help character development and to provoke sympathy regarding Rey and Kylo instead of writing it into their story lines and leaving Luke's character alone. Perhaps Rian Johnson thought the audience would be more accepting of a tough hardened Luke vs. a cowardly Luke that had gotten scared and fled. Any way thanks for an interesting video!
I think he would not be a Virgin, but maybe celibate
Yeah, it's possible. But again, it hinges on interpretation.
I think the message meant to be sent at the end was simply that Luke’s death was not for nothing. But I wasn’t ever a fan of that ending either, and usually hit stop when I rewatch after Rey commiserated with Leia.
I hear what you guys are saying but I don't think there was any realistic way to show everything that happened OT and The Last Jedi because you're talking about a 30 year gap between the two (there was no way to fit that much material into one movie). Also, we did see a compassion/'feminine ' at the end of TLJ, he confronts Kylo not with violence but with non-violence while also showing him compassion by apologizing for failing him so many years ago.
He did show his compassion, sweetness and softness at the end with the reason he projected to Crait, and with his interaction with his sister, but it was very little. Had hermit Luke been a bit more Luke-like, it wouldn't have harmed the story. Either way, it's true that there was no way they could have focused o Luke's character arc in the ST.
I don't t know that anyone is asking to see everything that happened in the 30 year gap between OT and TLJ. That said, when you have a scene where Luke is shown about to kill Leia's child who was left in his care understandably some OT fans are going to be like ???????
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I don't think Luke showed very little compassion when he was at the Crait. He was very compassionate to Kylo in despite of what his done. Not to mention that Luke was NOT there to kill Kylo but only distract him. He answered Kylo's rage and aggression with non-violence and non-aggression. Isn't that the Luke we remembered?
@@rowangreenleaf Luke had a moment of weakness when he gave in to his "masculine impulses". But once he realized what he was doing he felt instance shame. Also, Luke about to kill his own nephew is reminiscent to when Luke almost killed his own father when Vader threaten Leia. Despite Luke's compassion he does have darker impulses when the people he cares about are threaten. Isn't that consistent to what we've seen before?
@@neosoontoretro Hello there! The problem I see with the comparison of Luke's behavior towards Vader and his behavior towards Ben Solo is that Vader was a villain and at the end of the day someone Luke had only just met who was also threatening his friend/sister Leia. They were also dueling at the time. It's extraordinary that he was able to restrain the impulse to destroy Vader in that situation, even if he was his dad. Not everyone would have been able to do that, and that's Luke's strength and defining trait. With Ben Solo, he's known this boy since he was a baby--it's Leia's baby--and a boy he is responsible for who hasn't even done anything bad yet. It's a kid who is sleeping. It's extraordinary that Luke (or ANYONE, actually) would even think to kill Leia's child in that situation. It's the same character taken to complete extremes with nothing to justify that except "Oh, people change over time." Of course people change, but it takes a lot to change core traits and we have no justification for it here. The movie is more than 2 hours long, if they had wanted to make this transition from OT Luke to ST Luke less jarring they could have added some scenes to give context or a background, but they didn't; I think the point WAS to shock people but they didn't realize how much of a backlash there would be to that. I think they thought badass!Luke at the end would make up for it.
Also for me it's not just a moment of weakness, because Luke had already been looking at Ben with suspicion to get to that point. It was a complete failure of empathy that didn't just happen out of nowhere, but progressed to the point of almost murder of a kid. Like I said, I would find Luke's arc in TLJ awesome if I didn't have Luke in the OT to compare to. And I want to clarify here that I am glad that a lot of other SW fans did like Luke's arc in TLJ--I myself wish I could like it too. My goal in talking about this is not to get you or anyone else to DISLIKE it. I'm explaining where I'm coming from because I'm tired of being told that people who disliked Luke in TLJ are prejudiced against women or are too stupid to understand how storytelling works. And I really appreciate that you and the other people who disagree with me on this matter here aren't doing that. ^^
I know this isnt the right video for this comment, but the right video is in the force connections channel lol so here goes..
Has anyone else noticed that during the throne room fight scene only Kylo and Rey can be heard grunting, gasping, panting, yelling, and otherwise making verbal noises? I just find it interesting. I've watched other fight scenes with masked figures in a struggle or getting hurt and you can hear them through the mask..but not the praetorian guard. Funny, right? Are the praetorian guard canonically mute and I dont know about it? Cause if they were edited in PP to be quiet so the only sounds of struggle we hear are coming from Kylo and Rey that would be some delicious implications 😉
Oh, that's an interesting observation. TLJ had a lot of attention to sound effects. I think the idea is for us to hear only Rey and Kylo.
The sweet Luke was still there , when he spoke to R2 and saw the message and when he spoke to Leia .
I think the ending was showing the power of myth , and the story changing once it got to canto bite . Luke wasn’t really there but the stories told are saying he was , and he’s like this beacon of hope for the resistance and the new rebellion .
He was! He was also there when he talked to Leia in the end and winked at C3P0 (which I learned was improvised by Mark Hamil). It was just very little compared to bitter, angry Luke.
And yes, the ending has something about hope and symbols, which is neat in a way.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yeah , that makes sense . It’s such a massive shift in character . The trilogy seems like it needs more flashbacks for this story direction to really work with the long time fans. Especially for decisions like that. I think episode 9 will make us look at the whole trilogy in a different way , and it’s supposed to .
@@Thedreamlandfire Let's hope so!
totally agree with the ending and how it basically goes back to the hero worship of the male force user and the old tropes.
Nooo the guyliner
The difference in Kylo’s hair between TFA and TLJ: who was it that said his hairdresser perished on Starkiller Base?
Oh, goodness, it was someone on Tumblr. We need to find who that is and frame the quotation.
I fully agree about Luke his execution as a character a loved character was a huge disappointment for me even Liea showed some compassion for her son and so did han I mean they wanted him home but Luke lacked compassion for ben and In a way rey which was wrong I didn’t like that at all
Yeah, it was difficult for a lot of people.
I also wanted to agree about Ben being a virgin literal virgin because like you say you can have sex without attachment are love He is a virgin I think in the way that he wants rey and it’s the first time he’s wanted anyone that he also loves. Plus Ben was twenty nine years old . Of course many argue that he was Jedi so he was trained in that way and maybe he was when with Luke because Luke trained in the traditional way. But what about after I mean the dark side was never like that they did not take vows of celibacy and snoke was training ben in the dark ways so he may have not forbidden Ben a prostitute are courtesan if he wanted to have sex. After he went to him. After he was an adult.
@@79portia yeah, it's possible and wouldn't change the fact that he hasn't experienced emotional intimacy.
10:29. He came across (to me) in TFA as more like a warrior-monk - very capable but brought up in a emotionally poor environment.
13:21. Mary - really good point about the visual symbolism.
Leia can't inspire those kids at the end because she is a general, and a general is not the type of character that is a inspiration to the imagination of a kid. Luke is a character from the fantasy and extraordinary aspect of the story, a wizard, he does extraordinary things, so in the eyes of a bunch of kids he is almost a super hero. This has nothing to do with Luke being a guy and only he matters, that's a very awful interpretation.
Also, one of the three kids is a freaking girl playing with a toy and interested in a story that was supposed to be "only for boys".
Oh, we didn't say that TLJ is meant just for boys. It's more that RJ chooses the masculine hero archetype as inspiration at the end. The kids met Rose, and yet he finds the masculine archetype more interesting, like you. Even then, RJ could have had this masculine hero archetype with Rey. Rey is also a space wizard with a lightsaber and the so-called protagonist. Instead of Rey, RJ chose Luke, maybe to make up for hopeless Luke in the beginning. Either way, it's a symbolic choice.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Rose is not a space wizard and the kids never met or heard about Rey (yet). Luke is a myth, a legend, that's why he is more easy to kids take as an inspiration than Rose and Rey. Again, this has nothing to do with Luke being a man. He, alone, won against an entire army.
@@Zorak_97 Fair enough.
Who is saying the story is "only for boys"? And the kids obviously didn't have to be inspired by Leia or Rey because they didn't meet those women in TLJ. Rose is not a space wizard, but she is an ordinary woman who becomes a hero, one the kids met directly and witnessed doing something brave and important. The opportunity was there to highlight this as a source of inspiration and model to be emulated by the space kids, and if TLJ was really just feminine propaganda it would have been highlighted. Instead, they went for the usual phallocentric archetype and we commented on it. Obviously Luke is a legend so it doesn't matter if they haven't met him and he plays no direct role in their story. The funny thing is that TLJ goes out of its way to demystify and de-legendize Luke the entire time and then it's all good at the end because BroomBoi. The whole thing rang hollow to me.
@@rowangreenleaf Imply that you said TLJ was only for boys was not my intention. What I meant is that Luke being a man doesn't matter. Yes, he never met those kids at the end, but he don't need to have a direct relationship with them to inspire them, he is a legend. TLJ is not trying to destroy the legend of Luke Skywalker, it's just a more realistic take on it.
Rose freed the Fathiers, Luke humiliated Kylo and the whole First Order alone and without violence. There is no comparison. It's an extraordinary act. It's like kids reading Superman or Wonder Woman comics. Or young Anakin talking about the Jedi with Qui-Gon.
Complaining about Rian choosing the "masculine archetype" at the end is simplistic the same way as some people complain about TLJ being "feminist agenda"
At first I heard ‘edible complex’. Sorry, I’m an idiot.
That sounds like a very interesting complex...
the only feminine woman in The Last Jedi was Lovely in the Cantina....why aren't we picking Rey apart? On quora they are saying he's bisexual because there were no women at the temple. Good podcast, but as I'm not a follower of St. Luke, I had to go....
We have videos about Rey! Rey's psychology picks apart her character, including recognizing that viewers had issue with her character and explaining why. This is also sort of a sequel to a Star Wars Connection video that was really popular. The discussion on masculinity is important in medieval literature, which gets transposed to fantasy, and from there to space fantasy. But we do have content on Rey and on female characters in Star Wars.
This is so cringey 🤣
Yeah star wars is dead