I think that Kylo is the real object of desire. Specially in The last Jedi he acts like a sort of "femme fatale" reverse. In the noir movies the dark lady seems initially a very delicate and fascinating woman to protect, she seduces the man and then her true bad nature comes out and everything goes wrong. Here we have an opposite situation. Kylo presents himself like a monster and then gradually shows his sensibility, his softness and finally his trauma. And he's really seductive, he talks softly, he has dreamy eyes and he gets even half naked! Those fire red lips and those wavy hair are not random, everything is set up to seduce Rey (and the female audience, for sure). They make you partially suspend your moral judgement about his actions, because his so intriguing and fascinating, that you can't help putting yourself in a coffin and run to him. That's why Kylo is one of the most feminist character of our time, because he represents what women always represent: the object of desire. Not because he's strong and such a good guy (like Poe, for example), but because he's attractive in a "female" way. That's why a lot of men dislike him, because he's odd, he's completely out of the stereotypes.
@@PerriwinklePadfoot Oh yes, the signs are there :) I really don't know where they want to go with this character, anyway he's already an "homme fatal". Either he'll continue to be the bad guy or he will be redeemed, nothing changes, in my opinion, he clearly tried to apply his sex appeal to take advantage of Rey powers, for bad or good, don't make a lot of difference. I think Kylo is only apparently conflicted, I think he has a plan. Maybe he's suffering because of it, but he knows what he has to do (this sentence recurs very often), I think that he's not acting haphazard. You have to suffer to become "what you're meant to be", the adult that you chose to be. I don't know if it's for good or for bad, or for something new in the middle (that's my favorite option), but he's already a dark lady like guy. It's amazing that it's happening in a Disney film, and even more, in a STAR WARS film. It's quite incredible, but true. After all, If they are siblings, well, it would be quite ridiculous and it would sound to me like a mere "mind trick" to satisfy the plain nerd audience, but I really don't think they're going to do so.
Helmet-less Kylo is shot almost the same way as the kind of "lost girls" you find in David Lynch's work: mysterious, sad, kind of dangerous, and sexy. Someone said that the first time Rey saw Kylo's face in TFA reminded her of the first time the mechanic saw the mobster's blonde girlfriend in "Lost Highway." Rey's expression and the mechanic's expression are pretty similar.
Standing ov Patty Jenkins! The whole time I was thinking about how well she did WW. Being a “badass” female doesn’t mean you have to lose your femininity and humanity.
@@jessicaalbright7429 Hello😄 I just had the two movies mixed up and was way too tired to go back and edit my first comment. At my age it's not always easy to keep my thoughts clear. Lol!!🤣 I just felt Kylos reaction to Rey in the forest at the end of the first movie, TFA, was very intense and one of his thoughts were "Wow what a woman!!" So much to comment on in just these two movies alone.🤔 I don't always get a chance to respond. 😊 I love both TFA and TLJ and I really appreciate a lot of the positive comments! Thanks for the hug! 👍❤️❤️
This is a perfect example of how feminism can go way too far - because this is mostly a feminist statement that it takes away from a woman if she has a relationship with a man. How is something that is uniquely part of a woman’s experience from the point of view from a woman in a leading role, taking away from her as a character? You can’t fully embrace your character without fully embracing all aspects of said character - and she is a straight woman
I agree. However well intentioned, compassion and altruism can lead to regression and an ironic creation of inequality where it did not previously exist. I'm willing to listen to arguments that compelling female characters are underrepresented, but they certainly are not new or non-existent in popular culture. Too often today we spend so much time trying not to create something that will offend that we forget to create things that people will like.
Well extreme feminism going way too far yes, because that does try to suppress women's femininity and tries to tell them they dont need a man whatsoever, that kind of feminism attacks men and masculinity in general.
I think the backlash to romance is because the damage the 'rom-com' genre has faced. By far it is one of the hardiest genre's to get right, there's a very good doc by Mark Kermode (a major film critic for the Guardian, has a review show on bbc radio 5) talking about the rom com genre. It has received backlash because so many have not gone well or are seen as cliched because the female characters are rarely written well. Yet this was the role that most actresses garnered the most attention for, especially in the 80's and 90's (Julia Roberts and Meg Ryan) because that was all that was really available for women, with some exceptions. So to had 'romance', people assume that refers to 'bad writing' seen in bad rom coms. I think the dynamic of men and women is discussed the most however in the rom com genre and when done well, can be great (When Harry Met Sally e.g.). I think many can't handle the idea of Star Wars turning into a 'rom com', but this is because they are mixing up different things and segregating any female-centered romance to the romance comedy. You can't blame them necessarily because that is all that people have been exposed to in main stream media, but I hope that can change. 'Outlander', for example, has a central romance but is actually a mixture of all sorts of genres; sci-fi, time-travel, historical fiction, but the majority of the audience is women when the subject material is actually something which can appeal to most adults. Again, this is due to people assuming 'romance' for female leads is geared towards 'women only' because the rom com for so long was advertised as something for 'women only'. So there is a lot of confusion concerning genre. I hope in time, and now with female roles spreading out in terms of what is out there and explored, this old stereotypes will eventually go away. But Hollywood is responsible for some of this, because of the way they sold their content and their lack of imagination. They put out good morals as their beacon, what they sell, but the truth is all they care about is what sells. It's a complex issue and goes beyond Star Wars, but I'm glad to see it being discussed because it needs to be addressed.
God bless you guys talked about that annoying ass double standard. (Rey not allowed to have her dark boyfriend but Luke can have his dark girlfriend) It's not just something that happens in Star Wars and I'm so glad you guys talked about it. Women not being allowed to have their fantasies because these beta ass male's feel intimidated is so frustrating to me lol.
Most fans just hate Kylo Ren and don't even know about Luke's ridiculous non-canon book story. They as well fortunately don't even know that there are people who seriously want Rey to be in love with her cousin, who tortured her (and ordered his men to shoot her and the Falcon in TLJ) and did put his lightsaber through Han Solo.
@@iliboxic7586 There are other examples of men in media being able to fall in love with their antagonist or villain in the same media and people having no problem with it. Rey and Kylo is just the perfect example of people trying to control females for no other reason than them not liking women enjoying the same type of media/relationships in media. You not being able to tell that Kylo and Rey aren't related and are on different sides of a war after the 500th time of JJ and Rian saying it has nothing to do with it. That's what enemies to lovers is. This isn't anything new but suddenly its a problem when the main hero is a female.
@@quaritchsilco Everybody who paid attention can tell that Rey and Kylo are related because Kylo is a lier. Everybody who knows the business as well knows that actors and directors alsway lie about the biggest secrets of their movies because they are supposed to stay secrets. I don't care about any other movie. I care about Star Wars and Rey being the succesor of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. She doesn't need any romance with any character because she's a strong independent woman and the end of this story is about her and not about some annoying relationship. And she surely doesn't need to be insulted by a relationship with someone who tortured her and wanted his men to shoot her.
@@iliboxic7586 So what if Rey does choose Kylo? Then what? Is it suddenly bad writing because it didn't go your way? LOL give me a break this story isn't going how you want it and you're mad that's all this conversation is. A women being alone doesn't suddenly make her stronger than all other women. Since you only care about Star Wars and nothing else you'll understand that Rey and Kylo have a strong connection in the force and it won't suddenly just end. Even if she tried to avoid him he'd be with her. Rey can still uphold Anakin and Luke's legacy. And what better way to do it than marrying their grandson/nephew and training a new age of some sort of Jedi? They aren't related and that's a fact. She has the Skywalker legacy in her hands. Same as Obi Wan.
@@quaritchsilco All Skywalkers have a strong connection. Luke and Leia. Luke and Vader. Rey and Kylo. But this won't stop Rey from putting a lightsaber through the guy who did torture her and killed Han Solo. And nobody cares if it's you then who complains about bad writing. Have "fun" dreaming on for 7 months.
I will make this simple and straightforward... There is nothing wrong with having not only a strong feamale character but there’s also nothing wrong with a love interest either You can have both.
Awesome podcast! I think you hit the nail on the head! Just because a female protagonist has a romance arc that doesn't make her weak or dependent on the man. In Rey's case it's about finding that special connection with someone that she's been longing for and the same goes for Ben, which is why I think Reylo is so beautiful. And also the fact that Ben, like you said, isn't intimidated or threatened by her, but rather admires her for her strength.
I really enjoyed this one quite a bit. I do feel that in the past few years, a lot of female protagonists have suffered at the hands of writers who are afraid to give women romantic arcs for fear of the mob. The "strong independent woman" trope I think in a lot of ways has been detrimental for many characters because it makes them difficult to relate to. People need eachother. They need connections. Romantic interest is one (of many) ways to give a character a greater sense of purpose and raise the stakes in their story, regardless of their gender. Wonder Woman would have suffered greatly without Steve because it gave her character someone to connect with in the human world. It deepened her motivations beyond simply wanting to stop Ares. With that said, a romantic interest doesn't always have to be the driver. Ellen Ripley didn't have a romantic interest in Aliens, but her character arc was fueled by a maternal instinct to protect Newt. My favorite character in any genre of fiction, Ahsoka, developed into a wonderful character by picking up on the strengths and weaknesses of those around her and learning from them. Watching Anakin gradually give into his emotions, while also watching Obi-Wan become more and more blinded by ideology, is what enabled Ahsoka to do what her master could not; see the Jedi for what they were becoming and walk away. Even after she did leave though, what she learned from Anakin and Obi-Wan always stuck with her. Her solo novel is filled with moments where she assesses a situation by considering how Anakin or Obi-Wan might have handled it. Their lessons stayed with her. No character, regardless of gender, can reasonably be expected to develop in a compelling manner without having meaningful connections with others, romantic or otherwise. In Rey's case, I feel that her connection to Kylo is her strongest source of meaning, even if she herself isn't fully aware of it or understanding of it yet. She doesn't have any real investment in the Resistance, and even if she did, I don't think blind allegiance to factional ideology is a healthy fill in for a sense of personal connection and belonging. If loyalty to a Resistance she barely knows is her true motivation, then she would have killed Kylo while was he was unconscious after the lightsaber split. Their destinies are intertwined. It's just a matter of how the rest of the story plays out around them.
You mention how without Steve, Wonder Woman would have suffered greatly and I agree. Why? Because both the characters Diana/Wonder Woman and Steve were well written and likable. Now think about this for one second.... If in the first ten minutes of Episode 9 Rey got shot down and died would the average fan or general audience member even care? My point with this comment is we are on the final movie of a trilogy and if one of the main characters dies 10 minutes in not many would bat an eye. That's the problem. It isn't about people not wanting a strong female to have a love interest, Wonder Woman shows us that just isn't true. It's cause no one cares about these two main characters much.... That is the real problem.
@@KimberlyStarr21 True. As much as I enjoy Reylo, I have serious issues with Rey as an individual character. Reylo has kind of been helping me see past that a little bit, but I do think Rey currently would have a problem standing on her own as a character. Kylo I think is fleshed out a better to a significant degree, but his actions in regards to Rey drive a lot of that. I think part of what is turning a lot of fans off to Reylo is that it maybe isn't obvious enough. For as much as Anakin and Padme's relationship was criticized, one thing you can't say about it is that it's possible not to have noticed it. Surely there is a middle ground between Reylo and Anakin/Padme when it comes to showcasing. But I digress...The sequal trilogy has far more problems than just audiences caring about Rey and/or Kylo, and I sometimes wonder if somethings had been done differently (such as how Luke was portrayed) if fans would be more forgiving when it comes to those two.
@@KimberlyStarr21 a lot of people like Rey a lot, though. Some of these people believe she shouldn't have a love interest. I think unfortunately there's a tradition of poorly written female characters stuck in the love interest role, but it's an issue with the writing, right?
Ok so.... I reject the idea that any form of loving relationship is superior or inferior, or that any one type of love can be more "pure" than another. That said, I feel that romance should be appreciated for being the unique way in which most new families are formed. Of course a family can be formed from any group that loves one another, but typically romantic love is the foundation of a new family. It represents the hope that the new family can carry on the good of past generations while correcting their mistakes. It represents a level of intimacy that is unique as well, because a true romance is emotional, physical/sexual, and spiritual. If Star Wars is to tell some kind of universal truth, then romance needs to finally take center stage as a POSITIVE form of love, not the toxicity of the PT or the secondary plot of the OT. In short, I am so here for it.
I enjoyed your discussion a lot! The romance between Rey and Kylo is so great. It forces them both to grow. Kylo wants to be with Rey, but he can't have her on his terms. She doesn't just submit to his plans. I think this is the only thing that could make him see how wrong he is. Someone who stands up to him and opposes his messed up worldview. Sometimes people need someone they care about to set them straight, or they would never bother to do the necessary introspection to correct themselves. Rey went to Kylo in hopes of redeeming him, so he would become the hero who could save the galaxy. She still didn't see herself as the hero. She deeply desired a connection with Kylo, but she rejected it when it came with the unacceptable costs of betraying what she knew was right. Kylo forced her to face a difficult truth about her past abandonment. He encouraged her not to cling to the past, but to forge her own path. Rey is learning who she is and making a place for herself now instead of waiting for parents who are never coming back. She is finding the hero in herself instead of looking to someone else to be that. Also, Rey and Kylo were there for each other at a critical time in their lives when both their mentors had let them down and they were doing a lot of soul searching. Sigh....I really hope they can end up together somehow. 😍✨ Seems tough to pull off what with Kylo being the new supreme leader of the First Order and all. But I hope it will happen! 😁
Jennifer Palmer Reylo will happen, I’m sure, but what worries me is that they continue to make it implicit or subtle. So far, there are rumors from people who have seen the storyboard descriptions of the scenes that they’ll hug, kiss on the forehead (Ben to Rey), and kiss on the cheek (Rey to Ben). I hope there’s a kiss on the lips or more.
Great comment! I think it would be anti-climactic if the romance didn't happen properly in episode 9. Even to the most savage among the Reylo critics, subconsciously, at a level they've lost touch with, they would know something vital is missing from the movie. Almost like their Rey-moms and Ben-dads had never met and had never brought THEM into existence 😉
Gosh the 'literature is supposed to educate women' comment mentioning these 18th century views is SO ON POINT. It's like you are not capable making a judgement on your own and need to be sheltered till you are transferred from one house to another through a parental arrangement :D Okay back to listening, I'm only half way through ❤💕
I always have hated the idea that strong female characters can't have a love interest because it makes them weak. What kind of message is it? That love is something wrong or bad that takes people away from their duties or path? I don't think so. I wish I could see some romance between Ben and Rey in episode IX, a kiss or some sweet words accepting each other as the loved one. My space tragic family, the Skywalkers deserve an ending like that. They're the balance of The Force, the two counterparts that need each other to complete the equation. Great podcast as always.
Thank you for more wonderful content! Romance for Rey is the only loose thread in the storyline. She has friendship with Finn and Poe. She has had two father figures in the story and a mother figure in Leia. Maybe for other heroines, romance may not have significance but when we find Rey she is alone and desperate for belonging. since that is her personal struggle, the romance fits perfectly.
The whole podcast I was thinking of the example of Wonder Woman who is the epitome of the strong female protagonist “who don’t need no man” but she kinda does...it completes her character story/arch and adds dimension. I’m so glad that you guys mentioned it in the podcast. It really is a double standard that male protagonist can have a love interest and still be perceived as “strong” but somehow female protagonist can’t because they need to prove that they’re strong and show they don’t need a relationship. Like what???? Makes zero sense. However I did recently watch Captain Marvel and Denise is correct that Captain Marvel’s story just didn’t really have the need for her to develop a relationship with someone. However, the Star Wars sequel trilogy has set up the main two characters as LONELY PEOPLE...what do two lonely people need?? They need someone to make them not feel so lonely. Also, Star Wars is an epic saga about family and love, so it would make sense for it to end with the two main (lonely) characters finding love and family in each other...and ultimately balance the force.
Loved this! I kept thinking of this fantastic quote from Patty Jenkins about Wonder Woman. "But if woman have to be hard, tough, and troubled to be strong, and we aren't free to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere because she is attractive and loving, then we haven't come very far, have we. I believe women can and should have EVERYTHING just like male lead characters should be. There is no right or wrong kind of powerful woman. And the massive female audience who made the film the hit it is, can surely choose and judge their own icons of progress."
@@rowangreenleaf Lady Grey, of course! (No really, I did have Lady Grey and I didn't even realize it was on-theme until right now!) And of course I loved the show! Makes me sad that I can't see you at Celebration but I look forward to the recap. Do you know yet if you'll be able to record the panel?
It would be nice to see Rey wearing something feminine or pretty, no florals or bikini dresses tho, I always wondered what Han would have thought or said if he saw Leia in that bikini outfit, because he was still blind during those scenes..convenient me thinks..lol I just hope Rey stays feminine because I don't think u have to be masculine to be a strong woman.
Mssukie777 in the teaser for IX in the clip where she's looking at the death star ruins in the sea she looks like she's wearing some sort of flowy covering, maybe not a full proper dress but still it works
@Lords of the Sith Podcast hi guys I feel like if Rey and Ben relationship was not suppose to happen then the Force wouldnt had connected them or allow them to touch hands. Also the main man himself JJ Abrams said something back in a 2015 interview before TFA even came out which was, " We really tried to look at it from the inside out. What makes this story have a beating heart? What makes it romantic or fun or surprising or heartbreaking or hysterically funny? We simply approached this narrative from the point of view that this is a story about a young man and a young woman, not with the idea that we can do anything we want". That statement alone is proof that Rey and Ben are the main players and this is their story in the form of a fairytale/soap opera/Greek drama.
Great comment, Malcom Brooks! I've seen some anxiety among pro-Reylos about JJ's return to ST writing/directing duties but honestly I'm more confident than ever since his name was announced. If it was still Trevarrow I'd be worried, but JJ has always been clear about what this story is about.
@@rowangreenleaf I echo those same sentiments and plus JJ is a romance type of director. If youve seen the new Star Trek movies you'll notice firsthand the romantic dynamic between Spock and Uhura in which Spock is known to be emotionally detached despite being half human but his better half helps him with that sounds familiar in this trilogy right 🤔😄. If your interested in reading the article of the JJ Abrams interview of where I got that quote, here is the link www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/
Hi and I think 🤔 ur right it’s refreshing about the romantic between reylo I’m typically not a romantic myself but I luv character like Rey and belle from beauty and the beast also I luv conflicting characters like Ben and kovu from lion king 2
I recently saw mission impossible fallout and I didn’t think the romance aspect downgraded anything. In fact what they did was pretty refreshing and made sense for the first time in forever. Maybe the same could be done for Star Wars. We’ll just have to see
Another winning podcast, ladies! Lee, I’m so glad you decided to include Harlow’s monkey experiment in this one. I know you mentioned debating whether or not to include that in another video comment I left. I also loved your inclusion of Erikson’s Stages of Psychosocial Development. You made my therapist heart skip a few beats. I totally agree about heroines needing romance as part of their arc. It’s definitely part of human development to seek out and feel that sense of belonging and intimacy with another human being. It is part of healthy development whether in story telling (if done right and not just shoehorned in) and in love in general. I’m looking forward to your next podcasts, hopefully from Star Wars Celebration!
Relationships humanize characters, it allows them to be more relatable to the audience. It allows for some of the best character progression in storytelling. It doesn't matter what gender or orientation the character is, a relationship can better any story. You have to care about the character in some capacity and a romance arc is a completely normal way of doing that. My only requirement is that both partners are interesting characters individually, and Reylo delivers 100 percent on that.
I want to listen so bad, but I got work in the morning ☹️ Edit: It's interesting that you guys brought up the idea that novels are bad for women. I finished Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen a few weeks ago (yeah, I'm reading classic lit. I blame you and Girls With Sabers 😁) and the author held the same viewpoint as you do. Novels are not bad and should not be regarded as a lesser form of writing.
What kind of a message is it to say that a powerful woman can't have love? So then the choice for women is either fulfilling their 'professional' potential or have a relationship, but you can't have both? Ridiculous. And I so agree that one of the best things about Reylo is how he admires her strength and wants to push her be even stronger. I mean technically they start as enemies. And thank you for posting a podcast on my Birthday, really was the cherry on top!
Pretty sure y'all are just projecting your fantasy of kylo onto rey. Just like people do with any characters. Why can't they just be freinds or enemies? Why do they have to be in a relationship in order to bond and love eachother. Isnt that a bit sexist?
@@declaringpond2276 Why is that sexist, Rey still has a strong friends relationship with Finn. So she has both deep friendship and romance with a male character in a Reylo scenario.
I have been listening to your posts for a bit here and I just want to thank you!!! Keep up the great reflections and hope you have fun at celebration! :)
Kylo can stop a blaster shot in mid air and make someone freeze in their tracks and hold them immobile... what was stopping him from using the force to carry Rey to his ship in TFA? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. He wanted to be close to her.
Great, rational discussion that I really wish I could have taken part in. 😁. I do think that they are avoiding from the ‘sexy’ Rey for a couple reasons. One, she started out more girl like rather than woman. I think the maturing of the character will bring more visible sexiness. Two; perhaps they are also trying to stretch the boundaries of what is sexy... does it have to be skin-tight clothes, or exposed middrifts? Or can it be strong, fit, independent ladies that are considered sexy? I always thought what they did to both Leia and her bikini and Padme in her ripped up top was a bit extraneous and unnecessary but you all have opened my mind a bit to the purpose of changing someone from the chaste goddess to the sexual being. And I ❤️ when my mind opens to something, so thank you!!
Just to comment on Rey's appearance, SPOILER ALERT recent photos show she is back to her original buns, but I have heard this had to be done so it would match with Carrie's old footage which is going to be used in IX. I hope she has a different hairstyle later on in the film. Maybe, loosing all the ties, so her hair is completely loose? Like losing the armbands which have always looked like gauze or something to hide an injury....
Oh, we'll talk about it, but we haven't recorded it. We're in Chicago at Celebration and tomorrow we have an important panel at Star Wars University... But we'll talk about it soon.
I think whoever said Rey would not be a strong character if she had a love interest and a romance arc was as emotionally battered as Kylo himself was when he told her that her greatest weakness was that she still needed her parents (something he was desperately trying to stamp out in himself). Just like Kylo, these people equate strength with absence of need. For saints and illuminated masters, yes, that holds true. For normal people, it's inescapable, we NEED connection, and we NEED romance. BUT, if you read "The Lives And Teachings Of The Masters Of The Far East", which is an account of the glimpse Baird Spalding had of these incredible people's lives, you'll see that even these living gods had husbands, wives and children. Now, how much more "badass" can you get than laying your double at the entrance of a village to protect it from wild animals and thieves? Or to walk on water? Or to teleport yourself? Or to walk through fire? Or to heal instantly? Those masters did all this, and much more, and still found time and a place in their heart for love and for making babies. And they weren't any less strong for it. Claiming a romance arc is weak says nothing about the movie or the character it targets, but about the one who makes the claim: these people have suffered and have found some measure of coping and of strength in denying their deepest needs, just like Kylo did. I myself have been known to do the same. So I guess we all need a redemption arc and a bit of healthy romance 😉
@@sidraraza2816 Awesome, I always think I'm the only one who cares about that stuff lol. Nice to see that isn't the case! The Erik Erikson and Harry Harlow stuff were things I wanted to mention in Rey's psych episode but it was already running too long as it was. xD
I honestly think that this generalization of love as a degrading feeling for women is inherently sexist in itself. All of a sudden being in love is unbecoming because female heroes have to be as masculine as men heroes to be taken seriously. That's what some consider the only vision of a hero: cold, detached, and selfish. But why would a female heroine need to be like that? I get that some romance plots are terribly developped and in that case there's no need for love, but if it's a great arc, why the hell not?
To me, for Rey to end up with anyone else, would be a repeat of Anakin and Padma. Who else could be her equal? And no, a woman shouldn’t NEED a man, but it’s okay for her to want one. Why should she deny herself just to prove a point? Rey deserves to be happy.
Rey's outfit is intentionally, in-universe, meant to be child-like, it's meant to be as close to the last thing her parents saw her in as she could recreate, so they would recognize her. Personally, I like that her outfits and her framing are not sexual, because it's something different. We see sexy ladies all the time in sci-fi, and Rey is a beautiful, sexy lady, absolutely, but it's not her defining feature and I love it. That's another reason some people don't want a romance - women in these types of movie are almost always automatically a love-interest, and often that's all that they are. People are worried that if she has a love-interest, it's reducing HER to just that role again. Fortunately, Rey can have it all - she's the main character, she has all the agency of a traditional male character, and she can have her eye-candy boyfriend who is also a developed, interesting character.
Loved this rey deserves a romance imho besides I think kylo does have a thing for her it’s shown in both movies to me it wasn’t as apparent in TFW as it was in TLJ but in my opinion it was there the attraction he has for her
Found you guys through girls with Sabers and I love this so much!! (your point about people who didn't want Rey to have a romance at all really struck me, because I was definitely on that team immediately after TFA. I didn't see her chemistry with Finn (they're adorable besties I just don't personally see the romance), and while I didn't hate Reylo, I understood some of the Anidala parallels and tried not to judge people for shipping em. I slowly started getting into it pre-TLJ, and I really got into it in the months following its release, and I think recently (pre-TROS hype lol), I think the idea of Reylo has really allowed me to start to come to terms with my pre-conceived notions (often borne out of internalized misogyny) about a woman pursuing a male romantic love interest).
36.15 There's also the other duty of a leader: knowing that you have to send people to their deaths in combat but that it has to be done. Robert E. Lee said that was the hardest thing for a commander to do because he loved his men but had to sacrifice them. It's not easy at all and I don't think Rey is the type to make those choices, especially because the Resistance emphasises the individual, whereas the First Order obscures the individual, right down to hiding the individual's name.
/LONG COMMENTARY/ “…she feels like the only belonging she’s ever going to have is her family… So there was a very powerful idea that what she desperately wanted was belonging, ~which she’ll get~, but just not how she expects.” -J.J. Abrams, TFA commentary Dropping this first to say my belief that yes Rey, our heroine, is gonna get her happy ending, and Ben will be apart of that
I completely agree that romance adds to the story for Star Wars and even for women superheroes as well. That is one thing that has bothered me about the portrayal of women superheroes in past movies. After seeing Captain Marvel, I can say that romance per say didn’t really fit into the story however the relationship focus was on a strong female friendship and that was a beautiful part of the story. Sticking in the Marvel universe, I really love the love story between Gamora and Peter Quill. They are two equals in strength that come together and fall in love and it adds so much to both of their character arcs. They are two completely lonely people that find each other amidst chaos. I see something similar with Rey and Kylo. Being a strong woman doesn’t mean being alone and independent. I consider myself a strong woman and I am both a wife and a mother as well. Being those things doesn’t diminish a woman at all. When we can get past that mindset, I think we will get some pretty awesome stories with woman heroes at the forefront.
All characters, heroes, gods or not need love stories. That's the only way to give the story and the character depth and wide range of action. Great vid!
Oh absolutely romance weakens a lead character and they never have love intrests, outside of Rey (2:43). Iron Man, Capt America, Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, The Flash, Superman, Green Arrow, Harry Potter, Daredevil, Black Panther, Luke Cage never had love intrests or got married in their movies & telly shows...oh wait? So Luke not having a love intrest is the outlier and Rey having one is the standard, intresting?
Great conversation ladies! 👏👏 as you all were talking about It’s notable how they’ve had Rey appear so non sexual in both movies. I wonder if it’s too far down her character path for them to have her dress in feminine outfits ...even ones similar to Padmes sexy gowns. That’d be a shame ...Im hoping they have something up their sleeves to surprise us and Ben..fingers crossed. I love the graphics you put up to emphasize your points. They are so on point and funny! Thanks for all you do!
So well-done. Everyone is always so knowledgeable and well-spoken. And Lee always impressing everyone with those psychology chops! The thing that frustrates me the most about this perception is the blatant double standard and how people expect heroines to always be pure, or that virtues and sex are mutually exclusive and that female characters somehow can’t have both while retaining their agency. I so much appreciate that you talked about how the romance actually serves Rey’s character journey, that it’s not just some unnecessary extra or subplot. I hate when people delegitimize romantic arcs like that just because some romances have been poorly written at the expense of female characterization before. This is definitely not one of those cases and it’s so obvious that Rey yearns for that kind of deep fulfillment and belonging. Btw I’ve been having a lot of fun trying to binge all the episodes I missed before Celebration and it’s been a blast. Have fun and thanks for always giving me my SW & Reylo fill when I need it the most!
You can tell there is something different going on when Yoda didn't say anything about attachments to Luke about Rey, he knew everything that was going on with Rey and Ben. Yoda has seen everything that has gone on through the Force. It's obvious why he didn't say anything. He finally realizes how the Jedi Council screwed everything up. #ReyLo4Lyf
42.56 You make a really good point about the romantic story-arc differences between male and female heroes. Now, this is speculation and I'd love to have an alternative perspective, but I have often wondered if the reason why writers are reluctant to allow heroines to win their love interest is because love=marriage=family. A mother becomes the centre of someone else's world and, in a certain sense, her heroic journey ends with that (at least for the time being) and becomes a different sort of struggle to that of the hero. :)
That's kind of sad, right? Because the male hero will also become a father, so in theory his journey should also change. But it's not seen that way, and that's quite interesting.
I think his journey does change. Once a father, he has responsibilities to his wife and children, responsibilities which ground him in a different way. Odysseus left his family unwillingly (a familiar motif) and longed to return. I think the hero-father's burden then must be to be torn between family and duty. Thanks for the videos - they're always thought-provoking.
Also, there can be no denying of the very clear differences between the feminine and the masculine. Lots of authors have pointed them out (Allan Pease, David Deida, etc.). And because of all the fundamental differences that appear to separate the two energies (in reality, they complement each other), any story arc that stays true to the characteristics of the protagonist's gender would have to be fundamentally different for men and women, and neither is weak. They're just that, different. I think people confuse strength with masculinity and tend to call strong those women who are rather man-like. But what makes a woman "strong", so to speak, in the eyes of a man are precisely her feminine traits, her beauty, her flowing movements, her joy, her love. That's how she'll keep him by her side, and not with her impressive swordsmanship. I know Joseph Campbell said (or implied) that women should not go on the hero's journey, they should stay at home and wait for the hero. I disagree with him, I think women can have their own heroine's journeys too, and I believe their arcs would HAVE to contain the idea of love and nurturing and care. Why not have a heroine who nurses the world back to health with the help of what makes her a woman, right beside a man who contributes to the same world that which makes him a man? Oh, if they did that with Reylo 😍
It's interesting how part of the double standard with the romance centers around how we talk about it, too. The criticism about 'giving the woman the love story' always focuses on the female character and not also on whomever she's paired with. If she's paired with a man, well, isn't he being given a 'love story' as well? Why doesn't that diminish him? If a romance was written between Hawkeye and Black Widow, for example, these critics who say it makes the female characters weak would focus their attention on Black Widow and not on Hawkeye. It would be interesting to see what some of these critics would say about a female lead with a female love interest, or a love interest that isn't binary presenting.
Rey is an innocent and a survivor in ep 7. She didn't have a chance to explore her femininity before we got to meet her because of the burdens placed on her. She was living more in her masculine energy. Then ep 8 picks up right from the survivor Rey we got to know. Regarding Kylo Ren, she started out hating him, having the sole desire to eliminate him. This reminds me of the chick flick formula of "I hate you, I love you." Like Much Ado About Nothing. Her romantic interest in Ben only begins in ep 8 after wanting to kill him and physically not being able to. He's someone she can't have because of his personal obsessions and commitment to his own persona as Kylo Ren. She doesn't have time for a major wardrobe change then because it's just the beginning for them. Her wardrobe will feminize as their relationship develops. She hasn't been in touch with her feminine side, much less her own feminine look. She's too busy surviving and getting done what needs to be done. From the leaks I've seen of ep 9, she's on athlete-warrior mode. You're right. She isn't hyper-sexualized in the series, which I find refreshing. She starts out as more of a basic, girl-next-door character versus fully realized sexy bad-a. The very thing I find refreshing is the thing that's throwing so many people off from seeing her as a romantic character. If she had been sexually dressed since the start, more people would be on board with a romantic arc for her simply due to having been conditioned to sexy dress equaling having a sexy relationship. But that's not who she is. And that's not what ultimately pulls her future partner to her. He was physically attracted to her to the point of threatening to rape her in ep 7, more of a one-and-done thing at the time. It wasn't until she pulled the saber to her that her power became the most attractive thing to him of all. Their relationship will develop, as will her feminine side and look. We might even be lucky enough to see her don a dress for 20 seconds. Time will tell.
I absolutely love the part about Eric Erickson‘s work, I’ve studied that a lot and I absolutely love it. I would also say that Kylo Ren is going through intimacy versus isolation. He’s going to have to decide, “Do I be the lone supreme leader or do I connect and trust and be with Rey?”
I was thinking that if reylo don’t get their happy ending how badass would it be if Rey asks Ben to embrace his fury and knowledge of ALL of the force when all Hope seems to be lost and they just need Ben to be Kylo Ren during an epic action piece? Actually we could still get this and have Reylo. I just want that scene
23.15 From a man's point of view, Rey with her hair down was suddenly a romantic interest - which is something you ladies have pointed out before fits with the semiotics of romance and social signalling. :) It will be interesting to see how far Lucasfilm will go.
27.30 Not her sexiest outfit, no. Drop the hair and her womanly features would be emphasised - which is a part of what you've been saying about her journey to adulthood. :)
Star Wars is all about hope and redemption, I'm positive that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and then will Reylo be able to happen. I think it was smart what Daisy said in that interview, I totally agree things are complex right now, we have to find out how their relationship gets resolved.
I forget if I commented something like this months back when this video first came out but I feel like it's a point that should be reiterated. I understand WHY people don't want female heroes to have love interests as well as the pressure for a story NOT to have romance at all, to "focus on other more important things". It seems to be based in as stigma of unrealistic and badly written romance stories as well as the overall attitude of real life romantic relationships today (at least in western culture). I've almost always felt like people think romantic love is ultimately WEAKER than any other type of love (of course that's not true but that seems to be the message I've gotten overall). Romantic love also seems to be the first type of love that's thrown under the bus or neglected if some one was to choose. It seems like a lot of people, both in real life and fiction, underestimate the power of romantic love if it is cultivated and done right. We take it for granted I think and that bodes for bitter and unhealthy representations of it. Romantic love is resented by a lot of people (and in many cases rightfully so unfortunately) in this world because of how often it seems to be twisted and shown in a non healthy way (these things can be seen in other types of relationships as well of course, but I feel like it's most popular in our minds within romantic ones). But hey, this is just an opinion and thoughts that this video helped remind me of. Maybe I'm just an optimistic lonely person wanting this type of love and is willing to believe in it (maybe a bit to much? I dunno).
Jacen and Jaina was crap, and siblings as enemies is one of the most annoyingly done to death tropes ever, I am very glad we dodged that bullet forged from pure stupid.
Hey guys, love your podcast - do you know if there's any way we can catch your panels at Celebration if we can't attend? I really wanna listen to the points y'all have to make, but I'm poor so I can't physically go to Celebration lol. Basically, are you going to be recording anything? Will your panels be on the livestream? Thanks :)
The podcast will definitely be recorded and we'll post it here. I'm not sure about the romance panel, but we're looking into it. Thanks for the kind words.
You've done it again, ladies! Well done!!! And yes, I agree, not every strong female heroine has to have a love interest to make their story better. Rey was told that she's more than just a scavenger girl. She was told that she has a special connection with someone she's never heard of before and same with Ben. He was interested to find out who Rey is and wasn't threatened or imitated by her, he was fascinated with her. So does their special bond with each other make them weaker? NO!!!
22:30 The story goes that CF complained that she'd been dressed like a sexless doll in TESB, so the costume department designed the metal bikini/slave outfit to meet her request and...to be fair...how many cosplayers LOVE wearing that? ;)
How can anyone think that love makes someone weaker? I don’t understand this way of thinking! I totally agree that there is a double standard involving male and female heroes! It’s about time to stop this in movies! Love makes everyone stronger whether it’s familial or romantic. Love is essentially the requirement to reach our potential as humans! Rey better have that love relationship with Ben in Episode IX, too😊
The thing that terrifies me about Rey's arc in Episode IX is that LF/JJ/the audience treats Rey's loneliness as something she needs to "overcome" or "conquer" -- that by actually FINDING that thing she is so desperate for (LOVE) that she is essentially "giving in" to her trauma. Does that make sense? Like, her big accomplishment will be to realize "oh! I DON'T need love after all! HOORAY!" Which is just... depressing. But I'm so afraid that's the route they are gonna go because Badass Female Who Doesn't Need Romance To Be Complete is so en vogue right now. It ties in with LF being very careful not to feminize Rey too much. They're too afraid of "objectifying" her by allowing her to BE feminine, just as they might be too afraid to allow her to find love because that need is something that has been holding her back. Like giving a drug addict a bump of coke or something. That they will treat Rey's intimacy with Ben in TLJ as a "harsh lesson" she had to learn in the futility of compassion and love. I hope not, I hope my fears are for naught and they will indeed give her the love she deserves. It's what she WANTS, dammit, so let her have it!!!
Rey is very hardened in TFA, and very lonely. It doesn't look healthy. I can see an arc "Yay, I can be happy and alone" for a character who has been seeking other people's approval, maybe devaluing themselves just not to be lonely, or maybe being in an abusive relationship. There are some romances and dramas about married women saying "Hurray" after a divorce, for example. Rey doesn't need to learn "to live by herself" because she has done it all her life. What she'll overcome is her need for her family, because it's regressive: looking back, but she'll find something in her future. It's what Maz told her, and that was Jj's work. Keep the faith.
That's a great message for the people out there. Why can male heroes have a romantic interest but female not? Where is the equality?? Therefore, I enjoyed every second of this podcast.
I'm with Lee. No Romance for Rey would be a huge (effing HUGE) fail. I have to agree that even a romance with somebody besides Ben would be a fail as well. So where is the epic, angsty, dramatic romance of the space opera if it's not Rey and Ben? The last part of the discussion was very interesting and somehow opened my eyes a bit to some of the feelings of those who are not in love with certain aspects of TLJ. I could see where how things went could be very jarring and difficult to shake off.
How can they be strong independent women if they allow us to deny them love? No one is truly independent, in my opinion. Everyone is dependent on oxygen, food, water, and love, most of all.
Another reason why it's ridiculous that romance-sex-family as a path is rejected for heroines is that (almost) every hero has a woman to fight for and protect. Deadpool - Conan - Sharpe - Aubrey - Aragorn - Uhtred - Siegfrid etc. All have a woman who represents their motivation to be more than just a man.
If the detractors of the romance arc looked deep within and admitted it to themselves, they would see the truth too: we are simply happier when we are in a loving relationship than when we are single. I'm not saying we aren't happy when we're single. I'm single and satisfied at the same time. I can be as much single as I can be in a relationship. I love reading, debating, turning life philosophically inside out, and I can do all of these exciting things without any shred of romance. But I can't deny that I was happiER (emphasis on the comparative 😉) when I was with someone. And I'm sure it's the same for everyone. So the detractors are just in denial about themselves and therefore unforgiving with Rey 😉.
I know I already said something but for the love of goodness and I am just going to say it right here because I don't want to hold it in anymore but I am more than tired of the never ending double standard attitude and hypocrisy running rampant with the two subjects I mentioned the other day having a strong woman and a strong love interest but honest to God I am getting tired of these two things becoming a stereotype of ridicule, you know I agree with Patty Jenkins in a way why are we in a way so afraid and dread the thought of romance occurring as if it is not going to hold any weight to the story or we should be so afraid of it be afraid of emotions if this is the point in our own society and human race as if that's supposed to be normal to fear that than I am terrified of the future. Remember what Sia said in her lyrics in the song she made for "Wonder Woman"... "To be human is to love". True to a point we do need to control our emotions and not go overboard but also do not be afraid to help someone who needs to regain their humanity and open their heart. All right I know this was a little all over the place but this is something i thought of for a while and I just wanted to have the rare opportunity to air this out.
I think that all these complaints would not be there is Ray was the boy and Kylo was the girl...but we have see so many versons of them. for me, I like the change. It is refreshing and cool. It is refreshing to have a cool kickass female hero to have a complex love arc. Another engaging potcast girls... love it :)
I understand why some don't like the idea of Rey having a love story. There are many reasons, not least (among some) is the notorious fact that so many female characters exist in films and other stories as nothing more than "the girlfriend." But in the original trilogy this was subverted very well by Princess Leia. The prequels alas fell into that trap in a subtle but deep way, essentially by forcing a relationship into a box amid lots of overall mediocrity. The new trilogy likewise is more like the original in that the relationship feels natural, even compelling. In fact, we don't expect it to be smooth sailing--just as most of us weren't surprised that Leia and Han were no longer together, yet still clearly loved each other very much. Such emotional connections, like the Force itself, has many facets and some can become a trap. Avoiding those connections was a major flaw in the Old Jedi--meanwhile the Sith only exploited such, rather than developing and nurturing them. In a favorite fantasy series, a council of wizards rules the Land and devote themselves to Peace, including peace of mind, banking the fires of passion lest in desperation or rage they violate Peace. Yet in the midst of a great war, their leader learns their magic has never been that powerful simply because their emotions fueled it. Only by wielding the raw power of their Love could their magic stand a chance. It is perilous, because to feel means the possibility of despair. But that is the challenge. Which seems to me the natural "lesson" of STAR WARS and the Force.
This is a great comment! Re: what you said here "So many female characters exist in films and other stories as nothing more than "the girlfriend." I apologize because Denise said exactly this when we recorded this episode, but I mistakenly removed that bit when I was editing. It's a good point, and I think one of the reasons why a lot of fans of female characters worry about romance arcs being reductive.
i agree with everything y'all said with the exception of the captain marvel discussion at 43:20. captain marvel, in the film, is heavily coded as a lesbian. she has a love interest, though it is shown in a subtle way.
Really? That's interesting and cool. I didn't watch the movie. We were responding to some people who considered Marvel "superior" because she "doesn't have a love interest" and we don't think it makes the movie better. Nobody says a male hero is better when he doesn't have a LI, and that was our point. If she does have a LI, thats actually super awesome. I might try to watch it!
LOVE this podcast!! Powerful, truthful and awesome examination of the double standard that DEFINITELY exists and also the interesting dynamic of assumed focus towards male vs female audience by Star Wars creators. I love sexy women as strong inspiration. I will say I LOVE Queen Amidala which is why I have the Prequel Trilogy art books as huge design inspiration. I don't have the current trilogy art books and frankly I don't want them because Rey has no costume changes or fascination as a character design. Neither with her hairstyles. I do love the 3 buns BUT her hair down is so generic and there's nothing else so far.
Yeah, Queen Amidala is awesome! It's true that her character design lacks a little. In TFA it's interesting how her flowy, feminine dress is similar to Kylo's costume. In TLJ, there isn't much to her costume, even if that movie is gorgeous.
I call it the "Taming of the Shrew" syndrome. A strong, opinionated, independent woman is completely undone by love, and most of her unique qualities are taken away by it. They did that to the lead female character in "The Birds", and within the "Star Wars" universe, they also did it to Padme. I think the current powers that be are worried about giving Rey more romantic tendencies that are so out and open, because they fear falling back into old patterns.
I will say that in the story Rey being covered fits with her character. She is somewhat stuck in childhood mentally. Also she would be used to covering without thought to looks because of her life on Jaku. Her form of dress protected her from the environment and perhaps men too. I'm not saying that you guys are wrong about the double standard or the general all or nothing mentality. I am saying that sexiness should be a part of building a character, and for Rey it wouldn't make sense.
Interesting point about Mara and outfits. I've never really got on with the various depictions of MJ but this one I thought got her perfectly - the complex admixture of strength and unexpected compassion. i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1328289436i/77786._UY630_SR1200,630_.jpg
@ Lords of the Sith Podcast crazy thought and this might be wishful thinking. Even though Rey in a sense found her family in the Resistance but I still like to wonder she wants more personal belonging and attachment. Ben's name alone seems to symbolize hope but it's very subtley hinted for instance in the OT a holographic Leia tells Obi-Wan in a message to help her and says he's her last hope. Luke knows an old man who goes by Ben and even after he reveals himself to be Obi-Wan Luke still refers to him as Ben the same as he does with his nephew. After Rey assaults Luke and after he finally tells her what truly happened she says she saw his future and after giving Luke a chance to help she says then he's our last hope. In TLJ when Ben was being berated by Snoke when Snoke says hope lives in the galaxy Ben stands up right on queue. Back to Rey she's tied to Ben and they have a connection unlike any other force users in this saga and the two are still seeking belonging well more so Ben but I feel once he proves himself worthy and redeems himself he will reconnect with Rey and if Ben utters the word to Rey in a Darcyish manner like you gave or taught me to have hope and if they have a child and if it's a girl I wouldn't be surprised if they named her Hope Solo (I know it's a woman soccer player by that same name but it would be fitting for this scenario).
I think that Kylo is the real object of desire. Specially in The last Jedi he acts like a sort of "femme fatale" reverse. In the noir movies the dark lady seems initially a very delicate and fascinating woman to protect, she seduces the man and then her true bad nature comes out and everything goes wrong. Here we have an opposite situation. Kylo presents himself like a monster and then gradually shows his sensibility, his softness and finally his trauma. And he's really seductive, he talks softly, he has dreamy eyes and he gets even half naked! Those fire red lips and those wavy hair are not random, everything is set up to seduce Rey (and the female audience, for sure). They make you partially suspend your moral judgement about his actions, because his so intriguing and fascinating, that you can't help putting yourself in a coffin and run to him. That's why Kylo is one of the most feminist character of our time, because he represents what women always represent: the object of desire. Not because he's strong and such a good guy (like Poe, for example), but because he's attractive in a "female" way. That's why a lot of men dislike him, because he's odd, he's completely out of the stereotypes.
To feed or not to feed Interesting analysis.
Great comment! 💕
“Kylo the homme fatale” is a hill I would die on tbh I’ve taken two noir classses at film school and the signs are THERE
@@PerriwinklePadfoot Oh yes, the signs are there :)
I really don't know where they want to go with this character, anyway he's already an "homme fatal". Either he'll continue to be the bad guy or he will be redeemed, nothing changes, in my opinion, he clearly tried to apply his sex appeal to take advantage of Rey powers, for bad or good, don't make a lot of difference. I think Kylo is only apparently conflicted, I think he has a plan. Maybe he's suffering because of it, but he knows what he has to do (this sentence recurs very often), I think that he's not acting haphazard. You have to suffer to become "what you're meant to be", the adult that you chose to be.
I don't know if it's for good or for bad, or for something new in the middle (that's my favorite option), but he's already a dark lady like guy. It's amazing that it's happening in a Disney film, and even more, in a STAR WARS film. It's quite incredible, but true. After all, If they are siblings, well, it would be quite ridiculous and it would sound to me like a mere "mind trick" to satisfy the plain nerd audience, but I really don't think they're going to do so.
Helmet-less Kylo is shot almost the same way as the kind of "lost girls" you find in David Lynch's work: mysterious, sad, kind of dangerous, and sexy. Someone said that the first time Rey saw Kylo's face in TFA reminded her of the first time the mechanic saw the mobster's blonde girlfriend in "Lost Highway." Rey's expression and the mechanic's expression are pretty similar.
Standing ov Patty Jenkins! The whole time I was thinking about how well she did WW. Being a “badass” female doesn’t mean you have to lose your femininity and humanity.
Funny enough loads of guys out there love the Wonder Woman movie, probably because there was NO male bashing in that movie.
captain marvel is coded as a lesbian... her love interest is maria
Kylo Ren: Oh that look in his eyes in the forest at the end of the Last Jedi, "Wow!" What a Woman!!!!! 😍😍😍😍💕💕💕💕
Baffled An'Deranged last Jedi or do you mean Force Awakens? I’m wondering if I missed something hug....
@@jessicaalbright7429 Hello😄 I just had the two movies mixed up and was way too tired to go back and edit my first comment. At my age it's not always easy to keep my thoughts clear. Lol!!🤣 I just felt Kylos reaction to Rey in the forest at the end of the first movie, TFA, was very intense and one of his thoughts were "Wow what a woman!!" So much to comment on in just these two movies alone.🤔 I don't always get a chance to respond. 😊 I love both TFA and TLJ and I really appreciate a lot of the positive comments! Thanks for the hug! 👍❤️❤️
Oh this look when Kylo tortured his cousin and wanted his men to shoot her and the Falcon.
Baffled An'Deranged oh, I totally get you and keeping things straight! 😊😊 that’s why I was thinking I missed something. And that Kylo look is epic!!!
@@jessicaalbright7429 Oh yes, that Kylo look is epic! And no, you didn't miss anything.😍🤗😃
This is a perfect example of how feminism can go way too far - because this is mostly a feminist statement that it takes away from a woman if she has a relationship with a man. How is something that is uniquely part of a woman’s experience from the point of view from a woman in a leading role, taking away from her as a character? You can’t fully embrace your character without fully embracing all aspects of said character - and she is a straight woman
I agree thank you for pointing that out eloquently
Miranda Alicea thanks Miranda appreciate it.
I agree. However well intentioned, compassion and altruism can lead to regression and an ironic creation of inequality where it did not previously exist. I'm willing to listen to arguments that compelling female characters are underrepresented, but they certainly are not new or non-existent in popular culture. Too often today we spend so much time trying not to create something that will offend that we forget to create things that people will like.
Well extreme feminism going way too far yes, because that does try to suppress women's femininity and tries to tell them they dont need a man whatsoever, that kind of feminism attacks men and masculinity in general.
I think the backlash to romance is because the damage the 'rom-com' genre has faced. By far it is one of the hardiest genre's to get right, there's a very good doc by Mark Kermode (a major film critic for the Guardian, has a review show on bbc radio 5) talking about the rom com genre. It has received backlash because so many have not gone well or are seen as cliched because the female characters are rarely written well. Yet this was the role that most actresses garnered the most attention for, especially in the 80's and 90's (Julia Roberts and Meg Ryan) because that was all that was really available for women, with some exceptions. So to had 'romance', people assume that refers to 'bad writing' seen in bad rom coms. I think the dynamic of men and women is discussed the most however in the rom com genre and when done well, can be great (When Harry Met Sally e.g.). I think many can't handle the idea of Star Wars turning into a 'rom com', but this is because they are mixing up different things and segregating any female-centered romance to the romance comedy. You can't blame them necessarily because that is all that people have been exposed to in main stream media, but I hope that can change. 'Outlander', for example, has a central romance but is actually a mixture of all sorts of genres; sci-fi, time-travel, historical fiction, but the majority of the audience is women when the subject material is actually something which can appeal to most adults. Again, this is due to people assuming 'romance' for female leads is geared towards 'women only' because the rom com for so long was advertised as something for 'women only'. So there is a lot of confusion concerning genre. I hope in time, and now with female roles spreading out in terms of what is out there and explored, this old stereotypes will eventually go away. But Hollywood is responsible for some of this, because of the way they sold their content and their lack of imagination. They put out good morals as their beacon, what they sell, but the truth is all they care about is what sells. It's a complex issue and goes beyond Star Wars, but I'm glad to see it being discussed because it needs to be addressed.
God bless you guys talked about that annoying ass double standard. (Rey not allowed to have her dark boyfriend but Luke can have his dark girlfriend) It's not just something that happens in Star Wars and I'm so glad you guys talked about it. Women not being allowed to have their fantasies because these beta ass male's feel intimidated is so frustrating to me lol.
Most fans just hate Kylo Ren and don't even know about Luke's ridiculous non-canon book story. They as well fortunately don't even know that there are people who seriously want Rey to be in love with her cousin, who tortured her (and ordered his men to shoot her and the Falcon in TLJ) and did put his lightsaber through Han Solo.
@@iliboxic7586 There are other examples of men in media being able to fall in love with their antagonist or villain in the same media and people having no problem with it. Rey and Kylo is just the perfect example of people trying to control females for no other reason than them not liking women enjoying the same type of media/relationships in media. You not being able to tell that Kylo and Rey aren't related and are on different sides of a war after the 500th time of JJ and Rian saying it has nothing to do with it. That's what enemies to lovers is. This isn't anything new but suddenly its a problem when the main hero is a female.
@@quaritchsilco Everybody who paid attention can tell that Rey and Kylo are related because Kylo is a lier. Everybody who knows the business as well knows that actors and directors alsway lie about the biggest secrets of their movies because they are supposed to stay secrets. I don't care about any other movie. I care about Star Wars and Rey being the succesor of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. She doesn't need any romance with any character because she's a strong independent woman and the end of this story is about her and not about some annoying relationship. And she surely doesn't need to be insulted by a relationship with someone who tortured her and wanted his men to shoot her.
@@iliboxic7586 So what if Rey does choose Kylo? Then what? Is it suddenly bad writing because it didn't go your way? LOL give me a break this story isn't going how you want it and you're mad that's all this conversation is. A women being alone doesn't suddenly make her stronger than all other women. Since you only care about Star Wars and nothing else you'll understand that Rey and Kylo have a strong connection in the force and it won't suddenly just end. Even if she tried to avoid him he'd be with her. Rey can still uphold Anakin and Luke's legacy. And what better way to do it than marrying their grandson/nephew and training a new age of some sort of Jedi? They aren't related and that's a fact. She has the Skywalker legacy in her hands. Same as Obi Wan.
@@quaritchsilco All Skywalkers have a strong connection. Luke and Leia. Luke and Vader. Rey and Kylo. But this won't stop Rey from putting a lightsaber through the guy who did torture her and killed Han Solo. And nobody cares if it's you then who complains about bad writing. Have "fun" dreaming on for 7 months.
Love in every way makes strong people stronger. And a lot more interesting! Jus' sayin'.
I will make this simple and straightforward... There is nothing wrong with having not only a strong feamale character but there’s also nothing wrong with a love interest either You can have both.
Awesome podcast! I think you hit the nail on the head! Just because a female protagonist has a romance arc that doesn't make her weak or dependent on the man. In Rey's case it's about finding that special connection with someone that she's been longing for and the same goes for Ben, which is why I think Reylo is so beautiful. And also the fact that Ben, like you said, isn't intimidated or threatened by her, but rather admires her for her strength.
I so love the "marry me" look Kylo has in TFA! It's not fair there's a double standard for love with heroes.
I really enjoyed this one quite a bit. I do feel that in the past few years, a lot of female protagonists have suffered at the hands of writers who are afraid to give women romantic arcs for fear of the mob. The "strong independent woman" trope I think in a lot of ways has been detrimental for many characters because it makes them difficult to relate to. People need eachother. They need connections. Romantic interest is one (of many) ways to give a character a greater sense of purpose and raise the stakes in their story, regardless of their gender. Wonder Woman would have suffered greatly without Steve because it gave her character someone to connect with in the human world. It deepened her motivations beyond simply wanting to stop Ares. With that said, a romantic interest doesn't always have to be the driver. Ellen Ripley didn't have a romantic interest in Aliens, but her character arc was fueled by a maternal instinct to protect Newt.
My favorite character in any genre of fiction, Ahsoka, developed into a wonderful character by picking up on the strengths and weaknesses of those around her and learning from them. Watching Anakin gradually give into his emotions, while also watching Obi-Wan become more and more blinded by ideology, is what enabled Ahsoka to do what her master could not; see the Jedi for what they were becoming and walk away. Even after she did leave though, what she learned from Anakin and Obi-Wan always stuck with her. Her solo novel is filled with moments where she assesses a situation by considering how Anakin or Obi-Wan might have handled it. Their lessons stayed with her.
No character, regardless of gender, can reasonably be expected to develop in a compelling manner without having meaningful connections with others, romantic or otherwise. In Rey's case, I feel that her connection to Kylo is her strongest source of meaning, even if she herself isn't fully aware of it or understanding of it yet. She doesn't have any real investment in the Resistance, and even if she did, I don't think blind allegiance to factional ideology is a healthy fill in for a sense of personal connection and belonging. If loyalty to a Resistance she barely knows is her true motivation, then she would have killed Kylo while was he was unconscious after the lightsaber split. Their destinies are intertwined. It's just a matter of how the rest of the story plays out around them.
You mention how without Steve, Wonder Woman would have suffered greatly and I agree. Why? Because both the characters Diana/Wonder Woman and Steve were well written and likable. Now think about this for one second.... If in the first ten minutes of Episode 9 Rey got shot down and died would the average fan or general audience member even care? My point with this comment is we are on the final movie of a trilogy and if one of the main characters dies 10 minutes in not many would bat an eye. That's the problem. It isn't about people not wanting a strong female to have a love interest, Wonder Woman shows us that just isn't true. It's cause no one cares about these two main characters much.... That is the real problem.
@@KimberlyStarr21 True. As much as I enjoy Reylo, I have serious issues with Rey as an individual character. Reylo has kind of been helping me see past that a little bit, but I do think Rey currently would have a problem standing on her own as a character. Kylo I think is fleshed out a better to a significant degree, but his actions in regards to Rey drive a lot of that. I think part of what is turning a lot of fans off to Reylo is that it maybe isn't obvious enough. For as much as Anakin and Padme's relationship was criticized, one thing you can't say about it is that it's possible not to have noticed it. Surely there is a middle ground between Reylo and Anakin/Padme when it comes to showcasing. But I digress...The sequal trilogy has far more problems than just audiences caring about Rey and/or Kylo, and I sometimes wonder if somethings had been done differently (such as how Luke was portrayed) if fans would be more forgiving when it comes to those two.
Yeah, great point about the importance of connection.
@@KimberlyStarr21 a lot of people like Rey a lot, though. Some of these people believe she shouldn't have a love interest. I think unfortunately there's a tradition of poorly written female characters stuck in the love interest role, but it's an issue with the writing, right?
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast there is a reason that the most emotional moment of Cast Away was when a volleyball floated away.
Ok so.... I reject the idea that any form of loving relationship is superior or inferior, or that any one type of love can be more "pure" than another. That said, I feel that romance should be appreciated for being the unique way in which most new families are formed. Of course a family can be formed from any group that loves one another, but typically romantic love is the foundation of a new family. It represents the hope that the new family can carry on the good of past generations while correcting their mistakes. It represents a level of intimacy that is unique as well, because a true romance is emotional, physical/sexual, and spiritual. If Star Wars is to tell some kind of universal truth, then romance needs to finally take center stage as a POSITIVE form of love, not the toxicity of the PT or the secondary plot of the OT.
In short, I am so here for it.
I enjoyed your discussion a lot! The romance between Rey and Kylo is so great. It forces them both to grow.
Kylo wants to be with Rey, but he can't have her on his terms. She doesn't just submit to his plans. I think this is the only thing that could make him see how wrong he is. Someone who stands up to him and opposes his messed up worldview. Sometimes people need someone they care about to set them straight, or they would never bother to do the necessary introspection to correct themselves.
Rey went to Kylo in hopes of redeeming him, so he would become the hero who could save the galaxy. She still didn't see herself as the hero. She deeply desired a connection with Kylo, but she rejected it when it came with the unacceptable costs of betraying what she knew was right. Kylo forced her to face a difficult truth about her past abandonment. He encouraged her not to cling to the past, but to forge her own path. Rey is learning who she is and making a place for herself now instead of waiting for parents who are never coming back. She is finding the hero in herself instead of looking to someone else to be that.
Also, Rey and Kylo were there for each other at a critical time in their lives when both their mentors had let them down and they were doing a lot of soul searching.
Sigh....I really hope they can end up together somehow. 😍✨ Seems tough to pull off what with Kylo being the new supreme leader of the First Order and all. But I hope it will happen! 😁
It will happen, have no fear.
Jennifer Palmer Reylo will happen, I’m sure, but what worries me is that they continue to make it implicit or subtle. So far, there are rumors from people who have seen the storyboard descriptions of the scenes that they’ll hug, kiss on the forehead (Ben to Rey), and kiss on the cheek (Rey to Ben). I hope there’s a kiss on the lips or more.
Great comment! I think it would be anti-climactic if the romance didn't happen properly in episode 9. Even to the most savage among the Reylo critics, subconsciously, at a level they've lost touch with, they would know something vital is missing from the movie. Almost like their Rey-moms and Ben-dads had never met and had never brought THEM into existence 😉
Gosh the 'literature is supposed to educate women' comment mentioning these 18th century views is SO ON POINT. It's like you are not capable making a judgement on your own and need to be sheltered till you are transferred from one house to another through a parental arrangement :D Okay back to listening, I'm only half way through ❤💕
I always have hated the idea that strong female characters can't have a love interest because it makes them weak. What kind of message is it? That love is something wrong or bad that takes people away from their duties or path? I don't think so. I wish I could see some romance between Ben and Rey in episode IX, a kiss or some sweet words accepting each other as the loved one. My space tragic family, the Skywalkers deserve an ending like that. They're the balance of The Force, the two counterparts that need each other to complete the equation. Great podcast as always.
Thank you for more wonderful content! Romance for Rey is the only loose thread in the storyline. She has friendship with Finn and Poe. She has had two father figures in the story and a mother figure in Leia. Maybe for other heroines, romance may not have significance but when we find Rey she is alone and desperate for belonging. since that is her personal struggle, the romance fits perfectly.
The whole podcast I was thinking of the example of Wonder Woman who is the epitome of the strong female protagonist “who don’t need no man” but she kinda does...it completes her character story/arch and adds dimension. I’m so glad that you guys mentioned it in the podcast.
It really is a double standard that male protagonist can have a love interest and still be perceived as “strong” but somehow female protagonist can’t because they need to prove that they’re strong and show they don’t need a relationship. Like what???? Makes zero sense.
However I did recently watch Captain Marvel and Denise is correct that Captain Marvel’s story just didn’t really have the need for her to develop a relationship with someone. However, the Star Wars sequel trilogy has set up the main two characters as LONELY PEOPLE...what do two lonely people need?? They need someone to make them not feel so lonely. Also, Star Wars is an epic saga about family and love, so it would make sense for it to end with the two main (lonely) characters finding love and family in each other...and ultimately balance the force.
Loved this! I kept thinking of this fantastic quote from Patty Jenkins about Wonder Woman.
"But if woman have to be hard, tough, and troubled to be strong, and we aren't free to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere because she is attractive and loving, then we haven't come very far, have we. I believe women can and should have EVERYTHING just like male lead characters should be. There is no right or wrong kind of powerful woman. And the massive female audience who made the film the hit it is, can surely choose and judge their own icons of progress."
YES Imma start my laundry, grab my tea, and settle in for what will undoubtedly be another fabulous podcast!
Don't forget to come back and tell us what you thought! Also, what tea did you have? xD
@@rowangreenleaf Lady Grey, of course! (No really, I did have Lady Grey and I didn't even realize it was on-theme until right now!) And of course I loved the show! Makes me sad that I can't see you at Celebration but I look forward to the recap. Do you know yet if you'll be able to record the panel?
It would be nice to see Rey wearing something feminine or pretty, no florals or bikini dresses tho, I always wondered what Han would have thought or said if he saw Leia in that bikini outfit, because he was still blind during those scenes..convenient me thinks..lol I just hope Rey stays feminine because I don't think u have to be masculine to be a strong woman.
Mssukie777 in the teaser for IX in the clip where she's looking at the death star ruins in the sea she looks like she's wearing some sort of flowy covering, maybe not a full proper dress but still it works
I absolutely. But for some bizarre reason, people think that giving a female protagonist traits that are traditionally feminine is a bad thing.
@Lords of the Sith Podcast hi guys I feel like if Rey and Ben relationship was not suppose to happen then the Force wouldnt had connected them or allow them to touch hands. Also the main man himself JJ Abrams said something back in a 2015 interview before TFA even came out which was, " We really tried to look at it from the inside out. What makes this story have a beating heart? What makes it romantic or fun or surprising or heartbreaking or hysterically funny? We simply approached this narrative from the point of view that this is a story about a young man and a young woman, not with the idea that we can do anything we want". That statement alone is proof that Rey and Ben are the main players and this is their story in the form of a fairytale/soap opera/Greek drama.
Malcolm Brooks that’s such an interesting quote from JJ. Hope he follows thru 😉
Great comment, Malcom Brooks! I've seen some anxiety among pro-Reylos about JJ's return to ST writing/directing duties but honestly I'm more confident than ever since his name was announced. If it was still Trevarrow I'd be worried, but JJ has always been clear about what this story is about.
@@rowangreenleaf I echo those same sentiments and plus JJ is a romance type of director. If youve seen the new Star Trek movies you'll notice firsthand the romantic dynamic between Spock and Uhura in which Spock is known to be emotionally detached despite being half human but his better half helps him with that sounds familiar in this trilogy right 🤔😄. If your interested in reading the article of the JJ Abrams interview of where I got that quote, here is the link www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/
@@OGsplat I wholeheartedly believe JJ will deliver the full Reylo package😄😄
Hi and I think 🤔 ur right it’s refreshing about the romantic between reylo I’m typically not a romantic myself but I luv character like Rey and belle from beauty and the beast also I luv conflicting characters like Ben and kovu from lion king 2
I forgot that the beast did put a lightsaber through Belle's father and did torture her. It seems that I missed this scene.
I recently saw mission impossible fallout and I didn’t think the romance aspect downgraded anything. In fact what they did was pretty refreshing and made sense for the first time in forever. Maybe the same could be done for Star Wars. We’ll just have to see
That was a really interesting episode. Looking forward to whatever you bring next. :)
Another winning podcast, ladies! Lee, I’m so glad you decided to include Harlow’s monkey experiment in this one. I know you mentioned debating whether or not to include that in another video comment I left. I also loved your inclusion of Erikson’s Stages of Psychosocial Development. You made my therapist heart skip a few beats. I totally agree about heroines needing romance as part of their arc. It’s definitely part of human development to seek out and feel that sense of belonging and intimacy with another human being. It is part of healthy development whether in story telling (if done right and not just shoehorned in) and in love in general. I’m looking forward to your next podcasts, hopefully from Star Wars Celebration!
Relationships humanize characters, it allows them to be more relatable to the audience. It allows for some of the best character progression in storytelling. It doesn't matter what gender or orientation the character is, a relationship can better any story. You have to care about the character in some capacity and a romance arc is a completely normal way of doing that. My only requirement is that both partners are interesting characters individually, and Reylo delivers 100 percent on that.
I want to listen so bad, but I got work in the morning ☹️
Edit: It's interesting that you guys brought up the idea that novels are bad for women. I finished Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen a few weeks ago (yeah, I'm reading classic lit. I blame you and Girls With Sabers 😁) and the author held the same viewpoint as you do. Novels are not bad and should not be regarded as a lesser form of writing.
What kind of a message is it to say that a powerful woman can't have love? So then the choice for women is either fulfilling their 'professional' potential or have a relationship, but you can't have both? Ridiculous.
And I so agree that one of the best things about Reylo is how he admires her strength and wants to push her be even stronger. I mean technically they start as enemies.
And thank you for posting a podcast on my Birthday, really was the cherry on top!
Pretty sure y'all are just projecting your fantasy of kylo onto rey. Just like people do with any characters. Why can't they just be freinds or enemies? Why do they have to be in a relationship in order to bond and love eachother. Isnt that a bit sexist?
@@declaringpond2276 Why is that sexist, Rey still has a strong friends relationship with Finn. So she has both deep friendship and romance with a male character in a Reylo scenario.
@@ImKr15t3n Because is most media women are rewards to the male protagonist?
@@declaringpond2276 And how is that relevant when we're discussing a female protagonist?
I have been listening to your posts for a bit here and I just want to thank you!!! Keep up the great reflections and hope you have fun at celebration! :)
Thanks!
I agree with Mary. Ginny had a “crush” on Harry for a long time but the feeling was never reciprocated.
I agree.
Another wonderful video. Seriously, monumental. I could never articulate how much I appreciate your content. Thank you, more please . 💖
Thanks!
I love your podcasts, they are really well thought out and interesting. :D
Kylo can stop a blaster shot in mid air and make someone freeze in their tracks and hold them immobile... what was stopping him from using the force to carry Rey to his ship in TFA? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. He wanted to be close to her.
... and so he gathered her close to his heart and he carried her aboard his ship...❤️
Imagine Kylo found Fin first and carried him back to the ship like that...
Child development major here pre-k educator for the last 21 years you’re speaking my language.
I very much enjoyed this podcast. Romance is my favorite part of every story.
Great, rational discussion that I really wish I could have taken part in. 😁. I do think that they are avoiding from the ‘sexy’ Rey for a couple reasons. One, she started out more girl like rather than woman. I think the maturing of the character will bring more visible sexiness. Two; perhaps they are also trying to stretch the boundaries of what is sexy... does it have to be skin-tight clothes, or exposed middrifts? Or can it be strong, fit, independent ladies that are considered sexy? I always thought what they did to both Leia and her bikini and Padme in her ripped up top was a bit extraneous and unnecessary but you all have opened my mind a bit to the purpose of changing someone from the chaste goddess to the sexual being. And I ❤️ when my mind opens to something, so thank you!!
Just to comment on Rey's appearance, SPOILER ALERT recent photos show she is back to her original buns, but I have heard this had to be done so it would match with Carrie's old footage which is going to be used in IX. I hope she has a different hairstyle later on in the film. Maybe, loosing all the ties, so her hair is completely loose? Like losing the armbands which have always looked like gauze or something to hide an injury....
I need yalls podcast talking about the Teaser Trailer PLEASEEEEEEE 😭 i refresh RUclips every minute hahah
Oh, we'll talk about it, but we haven't recorded it. We're in Chicago at Celebration and tomorrow we have an important panel at Star Wars University... But we'll talk about it soon.
I think whoever said Rey would not be a strong character if she had a love interest and a romance arc was as emotionally battered as Kylo himself was when he told her that her greatest weakness was that she still needed her parents (something he was desperately trying to stamp out in himself).
Just like Kylo, these people equate strength with absence of need.
For saints and illuminated masters, yes, that holds true. For normal people, it's inescapable, we NEED connection, and we NEED romance.
BUT, if you read "The Lives And Teachings Of The Masters Of The Far East", which is an account of the glimpse Baird Spalding had of these incredible people's lives, you'll see that even these living gods had husbands, wives and children.
Now, how much more "badass" can you get than laying your double at the entrance of a village to protect it from wild animals and thieves? Or to walk on water? Or to teleport yourself? Or to walk through fire? Or to heal instantly?
Those masters did all this, and much more, and still found time and a place in their heart for love and for making babies. And they weren't any less strong for it.
Claiming a romance arc is weak says nothing about the movie or the character it targets, but about the one who makes the claim: these people have suffered and have found some measure of coping and of strength in denying their deepest needs, just like Kylo did. I myself have been known to do the same. So I guess we all need a redemption arc and a bit of healthy romance 😉
I loved your take on the psychology of Rey and Kylo with respect to the psychosocial theory...Very well articulated
Thank you! If you're interested on the psych angle we did a whole series on it: ruclips.net/video/DsdViE8mse4/видео.html
@@rowangreenleaf yeah!!! I had seen them all...absolutely loved that series 😊
@@sidraraza2816 Awesome, I always think I'm the only one who cares about that stuff lol. Nice to see that isn't the case! The Erik Erikson and Harry Harlow stuff were things I wanted to mention in Rey's psych episode but it was already running too long as it was. xD
@@rowangreenleaf Also, wish you all the best for the SWCC !!...im so happy and proud of y'all 💜
I honestly think that this generalization of love as a degrading feeling for women is inherently sexist in itself. All of a sudden being in love is unbecoming because female heroes have to be as masculine as men heroes to be taken seriously. That's what some consider the only vision of a hero: cold, detached, and selfish. But why would a female heroine need to be like that? I get that some romance plots are terribly developped and in that case there's no need for love, but if it's a great arc, why the hell not?
To me, for Rey to end up with anyone else, would be a repeat of Anakin and Padma. Who else could be her equal? And no, a woman shouldn’t NEED a man, but it’s okay for her to want one. Why should she deny herself just to prove a point? Rey deserves to be happy.
Rey's outfit is intentionally, in-universe, meant to be child-like, it's meant to be as close to the last thing her parents saw her in as she could recreate, so they would recognize her. Personally, I like that her outfits and her framing are not sexual, because it's something different. We see sexy ladies all the time in sci-fi, and Rey is a beautiful, sexy lady, absolutely, but it's not her defining feature and I love it. That's another reason some people don't want a romance - women in these types of movie are almost always automatically a love-interest, and often that's all that they are. People are worried that if she has a love-interest, it's reducing HER to just that role again. Fortunately, Rey can have it all - she's the main character, she has all the agency of a traditional male character, and she can have her eye-candy boyfriend who is also a developed, interesting character.
Bless you girls, Reylo forever! 😍💜💙❤💞 #Reylo
Loved this rey deserves a romance imho besides I think kylo does have a thing for her it’s shown in both movies to me it wasn’t as apparent in TFW as it was in TLJ but in my opinion it was there the attraction he has for her
Found you guys through girls with Sabers and I love this so much!!
(your point about people who didn't want Rey to have a romance at all really struck me, because I was definitely on that team immediately after TFA. I didn't see her chemistry with Finn (they're adorable besties I just don't personally see the romance), and while I didn't hate Reylo, I understood some of the Anidala parallels and tried not to judge people for shipping em. I slowly started getting into it pre-TLJ, and I really got into it in the months following its release, and I think recently (pre-TROS hype lol), I think the idea of Reylo has really allowed me to start to come to terms with my pre-conceived notions (often borne out of internalized misogyny) about a woman pursuing a male romantic love interest).
Cool you found us!
I would really love to see Rey a beautiful gown! Maybe we will.🤞🏼
Reylo babies!
36.15 There's also the other duty of a leader: knowing that you have to send people to their deaths in combat but that it has to be done. Robert E. Lee said that was the hardest thing for a commander to do because he loved his men but had to sacrifice them.
It's not easy at all and I don't think Rey is the type to make those choices, especially because the Resistance emphasises the individual, whereas the First Order obscures the individual, right down to hiding the individual's name.
/LONG COMMENTARY/
“…she feels like the only belonging she’s ever going to have is her family… So there was a very powerful idea that what she desperately wanted was belonging, ~which she’ll get~, but just not how she expects.” -J.J. Abrams, TFA commentary
Dropping this first to say my belief that yes Rey, our heroine, is gonna get her happy ending, and Ben will be apart of that
Cool, hope to see you too!
I completely agree that romance adds to the story for Star Wars and even for women superheroes as well. That is one thing that has bothered me about the portrayal of women superheroes in past movies. After seeing Captain Marvel, I can say that romance per say didn’t really fit into the story however the relationship focus was on a strong female friendship and that was a beautiful part of the story. Sticking in the Marvel universe, I really love the love story between Gamora and Peter Quill. They are two equals in strength that come together and fall in love and it adds so much to both of their character arcs. They are two completely lonely people that find each other amidst chaos. I see something similar with Rey and Kylo. Being a strong woman doesn’t mean being alone and independent. I consider myself a strong woman and I am both a wife and a mother as well. Being those things doesn’t diminish a woman at all. When we can get past that mindset, I think we will get some pretty awesome stories with woman heroes at the forefront.
@Antheia Gaia I love your comment.
All characters, heroes, gods or not need love stories. That's the only way to give the story and the character depth and wide range of action. Great vid!
Oh absolutely romance weakens a lead character and they never have love intrests, outside of Rey (2:43). Iron Man, Capt America, Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, The Flash, Superman, Green Arrow, Harry Potter, Daredevil, Black Panther, Luke Cage never had love intrests or got married in their movies & telly shows...oh wait?
So Luke not having a love intrest is the outlier and Rey having one is the standard, intresting?
😂
Reylo is definetly my fantasy;)
Great conversation ladies! 👏👏 as you all were talking about It’s notable how they’ve had Rey appear so non sexual in both movies. I wonder if it’s too far down her character path for them to have her dress in feminine outfits ...even ones similar to Padmes sexy gowns. That’d be a shame ...Im hoping they have something up their sleeves to surprise us and Ben..fingers crossed.
I love the graphics you put up to emphasize your points. They are so on point and funny! Thanks for all you do!
So well-done. Everyone is always so knowledgeable and well-spoken. And Lee always impressing everyone with those psychology chops!
The thing that frustrates me the most about this perception is the blatant double standard and how people expect heroines to always be pure, or that virtues and sex are mutually exclusive and that female characters somehow can’t have both while retaining their agency. I so much appreciate that you talked about how the romance actually serves Rey’s character journey, that it’s not just some unnecessary extra or subplot. I hate when people delegitimize romantic arcs like that just because some romances have been poorly written at the expense of female characterization before. This is definitely not one of those cases and it’s so obvious that Rey yearns for that kind of deep fulfillment and belonging.
Btw I’ve been having a lot of fun trying to binge all the episodes I missed before Celebration and it’s been a blast. Have fun and thanks for always giving me my SW & Reylo fill when I need it the most!
You can tell there is something different going on when Yoda didn't say anything about attachments to Luke about Rey, he knew everything that was going on with Rey and Ben. Yoda has seen everything that has gone on through the Force. It's obvious why he didn't say anything. He finally realizes how the Jedi Council screwed everything up. #ReyLo4Lyf
Fantastic addition to your psychology series. Great points all around about the wonderful and unfortunately unusual story the ST is giving us.
Ooooh yeah, another podcast!
42.56 You make a really good point about the romantic story-arc differences between male and female heroes. Now, this is speculation and I'd love to have an alternative perspective, but I have often wondered if the reason why writers are reluctant to allow heroines to win their love interest is because love=marriage=family. A mother becomes the centre of someone else's world and, in a certain sense, her heroic journey ends with that (at least for the time being) and becomes a different sort of struggle to that of the hero. :)
The Patty Jenkins quote is very interesting! :)
46.09 Exactly!
That's kind of sad, right? Because the male hero will also become a father, so in theory his journey should also change. But it's not seen that way, and that's quite interesting.
I think his journey does change. Once a father, he has responsibilities to his wife and children, responsibilities which ground him in a different way.
Odysseus left his family unwillingly (a familiar motif) and longed to return. I think the hero-father's burden then must be to be torn between family and duty.
Thanks for the videos - they're always thought-provoking.
Also, there can be no denying of the very clear differences between the feminine and the masculine. Lots of authors have pointed them out (Allan Pease, David Deida, etc.). And because of all the fundamental differences that appear to separate the two energies (in reality, they complement each other), any story arc that stays true to the characteristics of the protagonist's gender would have to be fundamentally different for men and women, and neither is weak. They're just that, different.
I think people confuse strength with masculinity and tend to call strong those women who are rather man-like. But what makes a woman "strong", so to speak, in the eyes of a man are precisely her feminine traits, her beauty, her flowing movements, her joy, her love. That's how she'll keep him by her side, and not with her impressive swordsmanship.
I know Joseph Campbell said (or implied) that women should not go on the hero's journey, they should stay at home and wait for the hero. I disagree with him, I think women can have their own heroine's journeys too, and I believe their arcs would HAVE to contain the idea of love and nurturing and care. Why not have a heroine who nurses the world back to health with the help of what makes her a woman, right beside a man who contributes to the same world that which makes him a man? Oh, if they did that with Reylo 😍
It's interesting how part of the double standard with the romance centers around how we talk about it, too. The criticism about 'giving the woman the love story' always focuses on the female character and not also on whomever she's paired with. If she's paired with a man, well, isn't he being given a 'love story' as well? Why doesn't that diminish him? If a romance was written between Hawkeye and Black Widow, for example, these critics who say it makes the female characters weak would focus their attention on Black Widow and not on Hawkeye. It would be interesting to see what some of these critics would say about a female lead with a female love interest, or a love interest that isn't binary presenting.
True. It's always the female character that has to be a role model, that needs to be this or that, that can't be this, can't be that...
Rey is an innocent and a survivor in ep 7. She didn't have a chance to explore her femininity before we got to meet her because of the burdens placed on her. She was living more in her masculine energy. Then ep 8 picks up right from the survivor Rey we got to know. Regarding Kylo Ren, she started out hating him, having the sole desire to eliminate him. This reminds me of the chick flick formula of "I hate you, I love you." Like Much Ado About Nothing. Her romantic interest in Ben only begins in ep 8 after wanting to kill him and physically not being able to. He's someone she can't have because of his personal obsessions and commitment to his own persona as Kylo Ren. She doesn't have time for a major wardrobe change then because it's just the beginning for them. Her wardrobe will feminize as their relationship develops. She hasn't been in touch with her feminine side, much less her own feminine look. She's too busy surviving and getting done what needs to be done. From the leaks I've seen of ep 9, she's on athlete-warrior mode. You're right. She isn't hyper-sexualized in the series, which I find refreshing. She starts out as more of a basic, girl-next-door character versus fully realized sexy bad-a. The very thing I find refreshing is the thing that's throwing so many people off from seeing her as a romantic character. If she had been sexually dressed since the start, more people would be on board with a romantic arc for her simply due to having been conditioned to sexy dress equaling having a sexy relationship. But that's not who she is. And that's not what ultimately pulls her future partner to her. He was physically attracted to her to the point of threatening to rape her in ep 7, more of a one-and-done thing at the time. It wasn't until she pulled the saber to her that her power became the most attractive thing to him of all. Their relationship will develop, as will her feminine side and look. We might even be lucky enough to see her don a dress for 20 seconds. Time will tell.
Also I need yalls confirmation that all those people saying Rey is a skywalker are wrong 😭😭😭
When have they ever been right? Don't worry, it's Ben Solo's rise.
I absolutely love the part about Eric Erickson‘s work, I’ve studied that a lot and I absolutely love it. I would also say that Kylo Ren is going through intimacy versus isolation. He’s going to have to decide, “Do I be the lone supreme leader or do I connect and trust and be with Rey?”
I was thinking that if reylo don’t get their happy ending how badass would it be if Rey asks Ben to embrace his fury and knowledge of ALL of the force when all Hope seems to be lost and they just need Ben to be Kylo Ren during an epic action piece? Actually we could still get this and have Reylo. I just want that scene
23.15 From a man's point of view, Rey with her hair down was suddenly a romantic interest - which is something you ladies have pointed out before fits with the semiotics of romance and social signalling. :)
It will be interesting to see how far Lucasfilm will go.
27.30 Not her sexiest outfit, no. Drop the hair and her womanly features would be emphasised - which is a part of what you've been saying about her journey to adulthood. :)
Star Wars is all about hope and redemption, I'm positive that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and then will Reylo be able to happen. I think it was smart what Daisy said in that interview, I totally agree things are complex right now, we have to find out how their relationship gets resolved.
I forget if I commented something like this months back when this video first came out but I feel like it's a point that should be reiterated. I understand WHY people don't want female heroes to have love interests as well as the pressure for a story NOT to have romance at all, to "focus on other more important things". It seems to be based in as stigma of unrealistic and badly written romance stories as well as the overall attitude of real life romantic relationships today (at least in western culture).
I've almost always felt like people think romantic love is ultimately WEAKER than any other type of love (of course that's not true but that seems to be the message I've gotten overall). Romantic love also seems to be the first type of love that's thrown under the bus or neglected if some one was to choose. It seems like a lot of people, both in real life and fiction, underestimate the power of romantic love if it is cultivated and done right.
We take it for granted I think and that bodes for bitter and unhealthy representations of it. Romantic love is resented by a lot of people (and in many cases rightfully so unfortunately) in this world because of how often it seems to be twisted and shown in a non healthy way (these things can be seen in other types of relationships as well of course, but I feel like it's most popular in our minds within romantic ones).
But hey, this is just an opinion and thoughts that this video helped remind me of. Maybe I'm just an optimistic lonely person wanting this type of love and is willing to believe in it (maybe a bit to much? I dunno).
Yeah, romantic love gets a bad rep and it shouldn't.
Jacen and Jaina was crap, and siblings as enemies is one of the most annoyingly done to death tropes ever, I am very glad we dodged that bullet forged from pure stupid.
Hey guys, love your podcast - do you know if there's any way we can catch your panels at Celebration if we can't attend? I really wanna listen to the points y'all have to make, but I'm poor so I can't physically go to Celebration lol. Basically, are you going to be recording anything? Will your panels be on the livestream? Thanks :)
The podcast will definitely be recorded and we'll post it here. I'm not sure about the romance panel, but we're looking into it. Thanks for the kind words.
You've done it again, ladies! Well done!!! And yes, I agree, not every strong female heroine has to have a love interest to make their story better. Rey was told that she's more than just a scavenger girl. She was told that she has a special connection with someone she's never heard of before and same with Ben. He was interested to find out who Rey is and wasn't threatened or imitated by her, he was fascinated with her. So does their special bond with each other make them weaker? NO!!!
22:30 The story goes that CF complained that she'd been dressed like a sexless doll in TESB, so the costume department designed the metal bikini/slave outfit to meet her request and...to be fair...how many cosplayers LOVE wearing that? ;)
I don't like hyper-sexualized outfits on women in films because they look painful to wear.
How can anyone think that love makes someone weaker? I don’t understand this way of thinking! I totally agree that there is a double standard involving male and female heroes! It’s about time to stop this in movies! Love makes everyone stronger whether it’s familial or romantic. Love is essentially the requirement to reach our potential as humans! Rey better have that love relationship with Ben in Episode IX, too😊
Also, fantastic podcast girls !!! Thank you as usual.
Cool you liked it.
The thing that terrifies me about Rey's arc in Episode IX is that LF/JJ/the audience treats Rey's loneliness as something she needs to "overcome" or "conquer" -- that by actually FINDING that thing she is so desperate for (LOVE) that she is essentially "giving in" to her trauma. Does that make sense? Like, her big accomplishment will be to realize "oh! I DON'T need love after all! HOORAY!" Which is just... depressing. But I'm so afraid that's the route they are gonna go because Badass Female Who Doesn't Need Romance To Be Complete is so en vogue right now. It ties in with LF being very careful not to feminize Rey too much. They're too afraid of "objectifying" her by allowing her to BE feminine, just as they might be too afraid to allow her to find love because that need is something that has been holding her back. Like giving a drug addict a bump of coke or something. That they will treat Rey's intimacy with Ben in TLJ as a "harsh lesson" she had to learn in the futility of compassion and love. I hope not, I hope my fears are for naught and they will indeed give her the love she deserves. It's what she WANTS, dammit, so let her have it!!!
Rey is very hardened in TFA, and very lonely. It doesn't look healthy. I can see an arc "Yay, I can be happy and alone" for a character who has been seeking other people's approval, maybe devaluing themselves just not to be lonely, or maybe being in an abusive relationship. There are some romances and dramas about married women saying "Hurray" after a divorce, for example. Rey doesn't need to learn "to live by herself" because she has done it all her life. What she'll overcome is her need for her family, because it's regressive: looking back, but she'll find something in her future. It's what Maz told her, and that was Jj's work. Keep the faith.
That's a great message for the people out there. Why can male heroes have a romantic interest but female not? Where is the equality??
Therefore, I enjoyed every second of this podcast.
This is SO good and such an important conversation. Romance in and of itself doesn’t demean female characters!
Yeah... the problem is not romance, but poorly written romance.
Great stuff!
Reylo always
I'm with Lee. No Romance for Rey would be a huge (effing HUGE) fail. I have to agree that even a romance with somebody besides Ben would be a fail as well. So where is the epic, angsty, dramatic romance of the space opera if it's not Rey and Ben? The last part of the discussion was very interesting and somehow opened my eyes a bit to some of the feelings of those who are not in love with certain aspects of TLJ. I could see where how things went could be very jarring and difficult to shake off.
How can they be strong independent women if they allow us to deny them love? No one is truly independent, in my opinion. Everyone is dependent on oxygen, food, water, and love, most of all.
Oh my goodness! 12:20. I just learned I’m supposed to develop wisdom.
Going by your comments, you already have it. ;)
I have to say I didn’t like the Luke-Mara Jade romance. I never felt the romance, like I do in Lost Stars, for instance.
Another reason why it's ridiculous that romance-sex-family as a path is rejected for heroines is that (almost) every hero has a woman to fight for and protect.
Deadpool - Conan - Sharpe - Aubrey - Aragorn - Uhtred - Siegfrid etc. All have a woman who represents their motivation to be more than just a man.
That's why it's a double standard.
Yes, it's an interesting question.
If the detractors of the romance arc looked deep within and admitted it to themselves, they would see the truth too: we are simply happier when we are in a loving relationship than when we are single. I'm not saying we aren't happy when we're single. I'm single and satisfied at the same time. I can be as much single as I can be in a relationship. I love reading, debating, turning life philosophically inside out, and I can do all of these exciting things without any shred of romance. But I can't deny that I was happiER (emphasis on the comparative 😉) when I was with someone. And I'm sure it's the same for everyone.
So the detractors are just in denial about themselves and therefore unforgiving with Rey 😉.
I know I already said something but for the love of goodness and I am just going to say it right here because I don't want to hold it in anymore but I am more than tired of the never ending double standard attitude and hypocrisy running rampant with the two subjects I mentioned the other day having a strong woman and a strong love interest but honest to God I am getting tired of these two things becoming a stereotype of ridicule, you know I agree with Patty Jenkins in a way why are we in a way so afraid and dread the thought of romance occurring as if it is not going to hold any weight to the story or we should be so afraid of it be afraid of emotions if this is the point in our own society and human race as if that's supposed to be normal to fear that than I am terrified of the future. Remember what Sia said in her lyrics in the song she made for "Wonder Woman"... "To be human is to love". True to a point we do need to control our emotions and not go overboard but also do not be afraid to help someone who needs to regain their humanity and open their heart. All right I know this was a little all over the place but this is something i thought of for a while and I just wanted to have the rare opportunity to air this out.
I NEED A PODCAST ANALYZING THE TESTER HURRY PLEASE!!
Hello there!
General Kenobi.
@@katiebutler6984 Your move...
I think that all these complaints would not be there is Ray was the boy and Kylo was the girl...but we have see so many versons of them. for me, I like the change. It is refreshing and cool. It is refreshing to have a cool kickass female hero to have a complex love arc.
Another engaging potcast girls... love it :)
I understand why some don't like the idea of Rey having a love story. There are many reasons, not least (among some) is the notorious fact that so many female characters exist in films and other stories as nothing more than "the girlfriend." But in the original trilogy this was subverted very well by Princess Leia. The prequels alas fell into that trap in a subtle but deep way, essentially by forcing a relationship into a box amid lots of overall mediocrity. The new trilogy likewise is more like the original in that the relationship feels natural, even compelling. In fact, we don't expect it to be smooth sailing--just as most of us weren't surprised that Leia and Han were no longer together, yet still clearly loved each other very much. Such emotional connections, like the Force itself, has many facets and some can become a trap. Avoiding those connections was a major flaw in the Old Jedi--meanwhile the Sith only exploited such, rather than developing and nurturing them.
In a favorite fantasy series, a council of wizards rules the Land and devote themselves to Peace, including peace of mind, banking the fires of passion lest in desperation or rage they violate Peace. Yet in the midst of a great war, their leader learns their magic has never been that powerful simply because their emotions fueled it. Only by wielding the raw power of their Love could their magic stand a chance. It is perilous, because to feel means the possibility of despair. But that is the challenge.
Which seems to me the natural "lesson" of STAR WARS and the Force.
This is a great comment! Re: what you said here "So many female characters exist in films and other stories as nothing more than "the girlfriend." I apologize because Denise said exactly this when we recorded this episode, but I mistakenly removed that bit when I was editing. It's a good point, and I think one of the reasons why a lot of fans of female characters worry about romance arcs being reductive.
i agree with everything y'all said with the exception of the captain marvel discussion at 43:20. captain marvel, in the film, is heavily coded as a lesbian. she has a love interest, though it is shown in a subtle way.
Really? That's interesting and cool. I didn't watch the movie. We were responding to some people who considered Marvel "superior" because she "doesn't have a love interest" and we don't think it makes the movie better. Nobody says a male hero is better when he doesn't have a LI, and that was our point. If she does have a LI, thats actually super awesome. I might try to watch it!
Do you think Rey will wear a dress at some point in ep 9?
Of course... for the wedding!
Maybe. But the outfit we saw was already more fluid and light.
I hope so! It will be beautiful.
LOVE this podcast!! Powerful, truthful and awesome examination of the double standard that DEFINITELY exists and also the interesting dynamic of assumed focus towards male vs female audience by Star Wars creators. I love sexy women as strong inspiration. I will say I LOVE Queen Amidala which is why I have the Prequel Trilogy art books as huge design inspiration. I don't have the current trilogy art books and frankly I don't want them because Rey has no costume changes or fascination as a character design. Neither with her hairstyles. I do love the 3 buns BUT her hair down is so generic and there's nothing else so far.
Yeah, Queen Amidala is awesome! It's true that her character design lacks a little. In TFA it's interesting how her flowy, feminine dress is similar to Kylo's costume. In TLJ, there isn't much to her costume, even if that movie is gorgeous.
I call it the "Taming of the Shrew" syndrome. A strong, opinionated, independent woman is completely undone by love, and most of her unique qualities are taken away by it. They did that to the lead female character in "The Birds", and within the "Star Wars" universe, they also did it to Padme. I think the current powers that be are worried about giving Rey more romantic tendencies that are so out and open, because they fear falling back into old patterns.
I will say that in the story Rey being covered fits with her character. She is somewhat stuck in childhood mentally. Also she would be used to covering without thought to looks because of her life on Jaku. Her form of dress protected her from the environment and perhaps men too. I'm not saying that you guys are wrong about the double standard or the general all or nothing mentality. I am saying that sexiness should be a part of building a character, and for Rey it wouldn't make sense.
Right, but we're seeing a progression in her journey. As her story and role changes it makes sense for her outfit to change also imo.
Interesting point about Mara and outfits. I've never really got on with the various depictions of MJ but this one I thought got her perfectly - the complex admixture of strength and unexpected compassion.
i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1328289436i/77786._UY630_SR1200,630_.jpg
25:30 If you can get hold of the old West End Games roleplaying books, one of them has a short-story by T. Zahn with how Mara met Talon Karrde. :)
Mara and Talon hanging together sounds awesome!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast It's an interesting little story. :)
@ Lords of the Sith Podcast crazy thought and this might be wishful thinking. Even though Rey in a sense found her family in the Resistance but I still like to wonder she wants more personal belonging and attachment. Ben's name alone seems to symbolize hope but it's very subtley hinted for instance in the OT a holographic Leia tells Obi-Wan in a message to help her and says he's her last hope. Luke knows an old man who goes by Ben and even after he reveals himself to be Obi-Wan Luke still refers to him as Ben the same as he does with his nephew. After Rey assaults Luke and after he finally tells her what truly happened she says she saw his future and after giving Luke a chance to help she says then he's our last hope. In TLJ when Ben was being berated by Snoke when Snoke says hope lives in the galaxy Ben stands up right on queue. Back to Rey she's tied to Ben and they have a connection unlike any other force users in this saga and the two are still seeking belonging well more so Ben but I feel once he proves himself worthy and redeems himself he will reconnect with Rey and if Ben utters the word to Rey in a Darcyish manner like you gave or taught me to have hope and if they have a child and if it's a girl I wouldn't be surprised if they named her Hope Solo (I know it's a woman soccer player by that same name but it would be fitting for this scenario).
It cuts into only lesbians can be tough. My favorite real life butt kicker was a mother.
Sorry I meant the Force Awakens! A duh moment 😂
Maria: Thank you.😁