What happened to Episode IX? Ben Solo's death, re-edits, ending.
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- In this video, Mary and Denise try to understand a little more what happened in the production of the Rise of Skywalker and how they came to the fim presented on screen.
We discuss Ben Solo's death (or disappearance), the lack of theme for that moment or mourning, and whether it had been planned ahead or if there had been some changes.
We go over the evidence for re-edits from interviews with the editor.
We also comment on the cast reaction about the ending.
We go over a bit more about Ben Solo, abandoned possibilities, Colin Trevorrow's script, issues with the script of Episode IX and the sequel trilogy, and more.
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Speakers: Mary and Denise
Audio and video editing: Denise
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Ben and Rey should have killed Palatine together or least have Ben jump out of the pit to defend Rey. Making him miss the final battle was totally disappointing also not having much of redeemed Ben Solo dialog made me feel cheated (thankfully Adam Driver is a great actor and his expressions said it all). Having Leia being a horrible mother to Ben not only disrespected Leia's character but also Carrie Fisher's leacy (in a way). I believe if Carrie were alive I have a feeling she wouldn't be happy about Disney killing off Ben Solo. Sorry for being so salty but I need to get this off my chest. Reylo deserved better and so did Ben Solo.
Chessa Haagsma me too.. i think the same... carrie will not agree about ben’s death
Ben definitely deserved more dialogue and screen time
Luke deserved better in TLJ, we felt salty back in 2017 but bk then we were all attacked by Disney, and media articles calling us man babies, sexists and misogynist for not liking how TLJ did Luke, and to basically accept it. YOU didnt get things how YOU wanted them, we didnt get Luke train Rey in TLJ, we didnt get the consistency we wanted in this sequel trilogy.
My point here? WE HAVE ALL LOST HERE.
DISNEY LET US ALL DOWN.
@@RaikenXion But Luke was always a "rebel" even as a Jedi, and after what happened to his temple, it was understandable that he got angry about teaching. I liked the way he redeemed himself at the end of TLJ. In the end Luke becoming a legend and passing on his Jedi legacy...
TRoS is a good example of why Hollywood and major production houses should never underestimate the importance of good screenwriters.
Yes! And I don't understand why they don't put more effort into hiring good screenwriters. I think they think it's easy and anyone can do it, but no.
About Ben's fate, you have to think about Carrie Fisher's death. Pre-Carrie's death, Ben Solo was supposed to live. Carrie Fisher was a mother herself, very close to her daughter and she would have fought hard for Princess Leia's role as a mother, not just as a Jedi mentor and a general.
After her death, nobody knew what to do with Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. I'm with Aaron Quinton, there were two teams, within Disney/LF: Team Ben Solo lives, Team Ben Solo dies. Bendemption and Reylo were a given and that's why Trevorrow was fired: he just couldn't write it or even want it.
In the end, there was a compromise: Ben Solo apparently dies on screen, but there's no Force Ghost. As Aaron Quiton says, the SW fans are "conditioned" to see a Force Ghost when a powerful Force User dies on the Light Side. But we didn't see that so there's this :"what the hell, where is Ben Solo???"
So for the fans who wanted him dead, he is dead. For those who wanted him alive, he is alive in the WBW.
It's a back up, a "just in case" scenario, IMO. I don't think Driver will come back but an animated movie would be a first for LF. And Disney ARE all about anime movies. So it wouldn't surprise me if some day, we get an animated movie about Ben Solo in the WBW, trying to find a way to come back to life and also to come back at the right time period! And I think Driver would agree to voice Ben Solo. He loved that character and he fought for him.
Also, the problem with this trilogy is that its the REY trilogy, not a Skywalker trilogy. And also that this trilogy was sold to the fans as the continuation of the Skywalker saga, when in fact, the Skywalkers were there to prop up Rey, to validate her as a hero of this trilogy. That's why Rey is the one who spends the most time with all the OT characters, and not Kylo/Ben, who is their heir.
It doesn't help that Rey started as an engaging character and ended up as a Mary Sue. I mean, Terrio said recently in an interview that when Han saw her, two minutes after meeting her, he was thinking that she was his true heir, the one worthy of inheriting the Falcon. What the hell???? No, he didn't. He was broken after losing his only son to the dark side, he didn't see Rey as his replacement child two minutes after meeting her!
Also that the original sin was separating the twins. No no no no no, the original sin was separating Schmi and Anakin. Had the Jedi brought her with them, she would have played a role in raising Anakin and he wouldn't have turned to the dark side!
God, it makes me so angry that Abrams and Terrio just don't get SW.
The JediPaxis leaks… unfortunately, I think there were right: Ben Solo was supposed to be thrown in a pit and never to be seen again. LF reads reddit and they read the outrage, for weeks and weeks. That was the main thing that was enraging the fans. Nobody liked Rey Palpatine but Ben Solo dying and in such a way… so the ending was changed, Ben Solo still apparently dies (but he could be undead in a future medium), but he dies saving the pure golden child who is all the Jedis, even though Han Solo had seen a thousand générations live in his son when he was a baby but hey, a thousand generation of Jedi chose Rey but then, EVERYBODY chooses Rey in this trilogy and she gets EVERYTHING:
- Luke's name,
- Anakin's lightsaber that she uses the whole time,
- Han Solo's beloved Falcon,
- Leia mentoring her (when she didn't mentor her own son),
- Leia's trust even though she is a Palpatine, when Leia didn't trust her own son because Vador (I guess Leia's new Force Power is to read DNA now?)
- Leia's affection,
- Ben Solo's love. And Ben Solo's life,
- BB-8: Yep she even ends up with BB-8, Poe's beloved droid, not sure why, he gave it to her when she decided to roam the galaxy in the Falcon? or to help her while she lives on Tatooine? I guess we'll know more in a future comic, right ?
I used to laugh at the rumors that a LOT of the movie was being reshot. I thought "No way", the movie was shot from July 2018 to february 2019. But that doesn't compute with Abrams saying that the final cut was done 2 weeks before the movie was released in theaters.
Meaning that there WAS another movie shot, with another scenario (I bet more Reylo, no Rey Palpatine, Ben Solo alive maybe?), but when the movie was shown to the Disney executives, there was panic. They didn't like the movie and were terrified after the TLJ backlash, which we all underestimated.
John Williams himself had said that there was "comedic Reylo, and Kylo Ren having funny lines", Abrams said that what they did with Kylo Ren was fun and unique. Hello, there was NOTHING FUN AND UNIQUE to what happened to Kylo/Ben, it was Vador 2.0, redemption followed by death.
So there were extensive reshoots, starting in July 2019 to octobre 2019. Reshoots are nothing new but here, that's extensive reshoots IMO. That's why this movies is so saccaded, so disjointed. Scenes were kept that were meant for another scenario. Like… the Leia vision while she was training.
Let's explore that: Leia had a vision of her son's death. Like her father had a vision of his wife's death. So in the end, when she feels or knows that her son is going to die, she goes into a Force coma to find her son, anchoring herself to him and when he dies, she gives him her life Force. She gives her life to save her son's life. The ULTIMATE gift of a mother. The one that all the mothers in SW have done before, Schmi sacrificing her happiness and her will to live with her son so that he has a better life. Padme giving all her remaining life force to give birth to her children. And Leia giving her life force to her son so that he could live.
And the beauty of this story: Leia succeeding where her father had failed, saving the one they loved that they had seen dying in a vision.
But this was changed and it makes no sense. Leia stops her Jedi training because she sees her son dying in a vision. And in the end, he dies despite her not completing her training. ON top of that, it's ridiculous to write Leia as a future Jedi, she had politics in her blood, like her mother Padmé. Just like Luke was all about the force, like his father Anakin. So she would have never become a Jedi. Training to be able to defend herself, yes, but a Jedi? No.
So this explanation is stupid but Abrams/ Disney/LF wanted to keep that scene so they had to find an explanation and they came up with the "I won't become a Jedi so that my son doesn't die" instead of the "I saw my son dying and when that happens, I'll know and I'll do what needs to be done to save him".
Will we ever know what really happened? I think Boyega is the loose canon here. He seems to be volatile and if he reaches a moment where he is angry with SW (for various reasons), maybe he'll start talking. And there will be an internet backlash and even other people starting to talk.
Wait and see.
I agree so much with what you have written. I wonder if it was originally planned that his death of being thrown into the pit was to keep his death ambiguous so they could bring him back in future if needed.
Thanks for what you have written.
Agreed on Rey. As a Skywalker saga movie, I thought she would serve the Skywalker story (no shade here), not that all the Skywalkers would serve her story. But it's tricky, we don't know her that much. Imagine if Ahsoka got everything that had been meant for Anakin, if everyone gave her the chances they denied Anakin. I don't think we would have liked her either. She's such a beloved character because she served Anakin's story, which doesn't mean she can't be her own character, have her own arc, etc.
With the reshoots, it was a movie without Palpatine... I think it was even more reylo-centric. I can't understand why people would dislike that. Reylo backlash is minor, and TLJ backlash was mostly about Luke... But I guess they didn't research.
I agree that Leia helping her son live is amazing, but it's immediately rendered useless and pointless.
Also great point that JB is the one to watch for. I never thought I'd see a bright side in his behaviour, but you're right.
@@joandolliedoyle775 it's possible they were afraid of killing him, afraid of not killing him and decided to leave it ambiguous. But it's super unsatisfying. C3-P0 ends up not really "dying" , but he gets a moment. A moment to process the fact that Ben has at least disappeared was necessary there, and its lack makes the movie weird, calous and jarring.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 BAR MAG you nailed it!! I agree with you in 100%!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast I think that Disney plan was to kill Kylo, the way that TLJ endeed Kylo would be the biggest vilain if Ryan J. directed / wroted the last movie. They just didn't show him dying because he is the most loved character of this trilogy. There is just a few scenes of Adam Driver in TLJ.
I don't think I'm ever going to get over what Disney has done to the Skywalkers. I have hope the myth can be mended, but I'm skeptical at this point. I'm so heartbroken and sad. I never thought Disney would do this to us and I don't think I will ever trust them again when it comes to Star Wars. They took something that was so special to me, that I grew up watching and loving and they desecrated it. Anakin is my favorite character in anything ever created and to think this is the way his bloodline ends in death and tragedy just hurts so much. My heart is so sad and to me what Disney has done is unforgivable. 😢☹💔
I know. We need head-canons now. I don't know. Maybe the whole ST was luke's bad dream? Or something. So it doesn't ruin the movies that came before.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast The other night I was watching ROTS and I got so sad when Padme tells Anakin she wants them to just be together on Naboo after the baby is born. It just made me think of how tragic their story already was and now fifty years later their own Grandson suffers their same tragic fate. Their family never gets any sort of happiness after being manipulated and abused by the same predator all those decades. Like I said I am hopeful this is mended, but for now I think for me the saga ends at episode eight. I don't see myself watching TROS ever again.
That's why I made the decision to bring my speculative fan-fiction back out, carry on with it (i.e. ignore Ep.IX) and publish it on Ao3.
From my point of vue Disney is evil!🙁
@@GabiBrooks I'd say "incompetent" rather than evil.
About Adam's last lines, there is a interview in which Daisy said that if she could she would trade characters with Adam because "he was very funny in tros" or something like that. It makes me think if there is footage of Ben with the resistance.
Him with the resistance would have been amazing. The tension is already there. the scenes would practically write themselves. Oh, well.
The biggest problem is that Chris (and maybe JJ) held the Skywalkers on a pedestal and agreed that the story started at episode 4. Just because it was the first movie doesn't mean it was the beginning of the journey and that's what they fail to see. It was the beginning for us but not for the story itself. They just completely ignored Anakin and the prequels.
They did ignore the PT, and it's a shame. Not only the newer generation of SW fans grew up with the PT and PT-related material, it has important symbolism informing the saga. It's a real shame.
More of Mary and Denise ❤️.
Some points
1. I don't buy the idea of Rey Finn.
2. I think CT 's script was rejected because he made KYLO REN the ultimate vilane. That contradicts the primary idea that BEN SOLO will live and will be redeemed.
3. Ben Solo will live that's was the main plan for Adam Driver
4.i just saw SNL where ADAM points TROS as ' THAT SPACE MOVIE'. I THINK HE IS pissed what Happened to his character arc.
Yes, Trevorrow's script was probably rejected for that, but really, wouldn't it be easier for LF to lay down the requirements before they get people into writing... I think Ben Solo will live otherwise I don't see a way for people to give LF goodwill again. They'll have to find new fans. Good luck with that.
Mary and Denise, you brave guys! Analyzing this "mess of Skywalker" shows true devotion.
They had no storyline for the trilogy... WOW, who would have believed it? I really do hope that someone will leak what happened behind the scenes.
Please do your Ben Solo feature. He was the heart of the ST.
We will!
I always thought the trio was supposed to be Rey-Finn-Ben. It is ridiculous that a character that was supposed to die in the first half of TFA hijacked this trilogy from a Skywalker/Solo. Imagine if Ben turned to the light in TLJ and the 3rd movie was about the trio trying to work together stopping Snoke while Reylo's connection blossoms to the point the GA can't deny their love anymore. 2+ hours of Ben Solo, ughhh my heart breaks just when I think about what this trilogy could have been vs. what we've got..
I am one of those who didn't like Rose but come on, I didn't hate her, I was waiting for them to make me like her in TROS but then I realized it is not gonna happen, they cut her out. I actually laughed, I couldn't believe it.
I think there might be a version where Ben lives. His death was so abrupt and out of nowhere, it was like it was a fanmade video where they just wanted to get rid of Ben so they cut in the middle of a scene. The other thing is, there is no dialogue, does it make sense? No. They had to cut the dialogue because it woudn't have fit with the ending where he dies. Crossing my fingers one day we get to know the truth and that we get some Ben content on the blu-ray. They did the other characters dirty too but what was done to Ben is just unbelievable. He was the last with the Skywalker blood and they killed him off just like that like he never mattered. I guess that is what saddens me the most.
Also, great episode! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us in these trying times.
Yes, I think the trio was Rey-Finn-Ben. The three of them unmask un TFA and there's an interesting connection between Kylo and Finn in it which is unfortunately not further developed.
Great point on Rose. I think it's possible to understand criticism, understand that a character didn't hit the mark with the entire audience, but at the same time fix it. Cutting her like that sends a horrible message.
Also good point that the dialogue perhaps didn't fit the new ending and that's why it was cut. It's just weird to see this movie looking like a fanmade film...
They should kiss Adam Driver's feet, he was a shining star in this trilogy, although Daisy was brilliant as well considering the writing she was given. I was watching TLJ a week after I saw TROS in the theater and Rey's character was nothing like the one in the last movie. She was caring and emotional, not just swinging with lightsaber and being angry almost the entire movie, and then weirdly zen at the very end ( after her other half died, I mean WHAT THE 🤬).The movie was so chopped up, I didn't even notice John Williams beautiful score....I could go on... it was full of missed opportunities, really the whole trilogy was not planned.
Yes, Rey was weirdly angry. While it could be interesting as her darkness rising, it never gets resolved or explored... It's a mess.
I would love to see more Reylo, however Adam Driver is a popular actor desired by many. He's MUCH too busy to be bending to only Star Wars/Disney. The other actors/actresses are stuck in the S/W epicentre. Others have had a few roles but Driver has been all over the map and doing very well for himself. The last 2 years, he's received so many nomination for awards, I can't count them all. Congratulations, Adam Driver
Yes, he's doing really well, but he still put his heart in SW. I think if they bring Ben Solo back it would be in comics, cartoons, books, etc. He could come back, but in the far future, like Harrison Ford.
I also would like to see more of Reylo.
The Mess of Skywalker--that is the true title of the movie! It has certainly become a cautionary tale of the pitfalls of poor writing--and poor planning.
I only went to see the movie once, and when Ben Solo died I was taken completely out of the story and kept telling my husband that I couldn't believe what I was seeing--because it made no sense. I went into the movie wanting to love it--and I could have overlooked a great deal had the main characters been done justice!
One positive that I am taking away is to learn from the mistakes that were made, not only in this movie (or the sequel trilogy) but also in other fandoms and try to do better in my own writing.
Oh, yes. I just wish Hollywood started paying more attention to writing.
“It’s about privilege and supporting each other over stories” you SAID IT. Right there! This sequel trilogy is trash! They didn’t treasure Star Wars, they didn’t treasure the stories before them and they didn’t treasure the fans! What a disgrace! It’s sad I wish Rian had the trilogy from start to finish! This was so butchered, I feel like they only cared about the money and not about the story!
Also I wanted to thank you ladies for both taking the time to do these videos! I love hearing from you all and was afraid you would stop loading! Would love to hear your thoughts on the Obi Wan series going into indefinite delay and the future of Star Wars
@@lisarodriguez5107 we might do one on the future of SW but we'll try to avoid negative stuff for a while. With the Obi-Wan series, I think it's better to delay and get it right than to rush and ruin yet another character. Obi-Wan would be terrible because he's an OT, PT, TCW, and Rebels character!!! You can do some real damage in SW if you get him wrong. So I think it's fine to delay a bit.
Tbh i dont think Rian should have had reigns of the sequel trilogy itself, his aims seem to have been to deconstruct the very mythos of Star wars itself; resulting in breaking the lore and us all ending up where with are now with JJ and TROS.
No i think the most important thing should have been to honor George Lucas legacy and follow his treatments first.
Then Rian could have been brought in to write a "original Trilogy" of his own, that asks all these questions, like "what is Star wars?" and What does it mean to be a Jedi, or Sith?
That was SUCH an interesting point that they could have used Rey and Kylo's connection as a conflict between Rey and her new "family". They had it right in their hands. We all wondered if it would come up...if Rey would confide in Finn about it...
The fact that it never comes up, is never discussed, makes their relationship a bit shallow, I think. It's almost like Rey is shutting him out of her life, and in fact she is when she's ignoring his call constantly. I don't like it because I really enjoyed their friendship, and I wish it could grow and be explored in a beautiful way. Oh, well.
It seems like the marketing for both movies under J.J. were deceptive. Where as The Last Jedi marketing was on point. Though I’m still under the impression that there were some very last minute major changes to this movie. I hope that eventually more people will be willing to let on to what really happened.
Yes, TFA was deceptive on purpose. I think it was a huge mistake with negative consequences for the trilogy. As for TROS, it looks like they were marketing a different movie, but maybe they were indeed marketing a different movie, with all the changes. I think people need to understand what happened and we will one day.
You hear that?? “Another one” love your videos ladies, honestly it felt like JJ was trying to please everyone in the fan base but ended up pleasing no one
Yes, I feel that, too. But the issue, as we discuss in this video, runs deeper. There shouldn't be so many sides of the fandom wanting so many different things if expectations had been clearly established from TFA.
TROS had so many illogical and weird moments and the end is the worst part. Ben made that amazing entrance but immediately after he is thrown away ... then, they kiss and abruptly he dies after. I'm glad there was at least a kiss and the actors were amazing, but it's very disappointing. I like the dynamic Rey/Finn/Poe but it should have happened in TLJ to care about it. I didn't care at all about their hug at the end. I believe Kylo Ren / Ben Solo was the favourite character for everybody. Why they didn't make him say something at the end? It's so weird.
I think Ben should at least have helped defeat Palpatine, but no... Let's throw him aside for Rey "Skywalker".
It is ridiculous he touches that mask after Palpatine, told him he was the Darth Vader voice Ben heard. That scene should have been him chucking THAT HELMET at the wall. Rey could have just felt his anger and pain and that would have worked just as well to disturb her training. He could have discovered she was in his quarters by having her use the sith knife to parry an attack. Basically it's obvious the script got cut and shuffled and changed. One beat I wish they would have thematically hit is the idea that believing prophecies and visions are real is a bad idea. Prophechies basically create the idea that man can control the force by dominating it. Everytime a character gets a prophecy they seal their fate. Leia sees Ben turning to the dark side, Luke sees Ben turning to the dark side. Then they go and make cruddy choices. You can't fight the force. You have to allow it all to unfold before you. Even Rey having a vision of Good Ben is a fallacy of sorts. You cannot control the future/ fight destiny etc... The future has yet to be determined so I think embracing free will and self choice thematically could have been so poignant sigh.
Just realized that from the time Ben threw his lightsaber into the sea until the minute he died the only word he spoke was “Ouch”.
I think we will find out what happened to this movie later down the line. I think a lot happened behind the scenes because of rushed production.
No one wants Finn Rey if there is such a cool boy like Ben Solo!
Some people like Finn Rey. The TFA marketing implied it would be a thing. I just don't like it when they saw we're racists.
Poe wasn’t even supposed to survive TFA. The Trio is an afterthought, and it shows. So JJ, Kathleen and Disney are lying when they try to hype up that the Trio is what we came to see. No. No, it wasn’t.
I had tickets when TROS came out and was nervous about leaks. When the leaks were confirmed about Ben I couldn't even go see it. I doubt I ever will watch it, why torture myself...
It is just so laughable and unforgivable that Anakin will come tell Rey "bring balance to the force as I did!" when she needs help, but never take the time to help his own grandson...like ever?? Ok.
Yeah... I mean, the movie has some cool scenes. Maybe you could check it out.
Before the TFA I was especting to see Finn story, I thought that it was really nice to show the history behind the storm tropers. Also he has an enemy, Phasma, that was after him .... so that would be his story arc. I also espected to see Kylo/Ben Solo redeemed in a different way of Anakin, learning what Anakin wasn't able, that love was greater then force itself. Rey would learn about her familiy, find out why she was abandoned in the middle of nowhere.... by the way that it was portraited in TFA, in my point of view, she was from a important family, jedi or sith.... but she was not a Skywalker since anyone could see the sparks flying btw Rey and Kylo Ren. Rey would play a biggest role in Ben's redemption.
in TLJ Finn was chaising something that I can barely remember with Rose, his arc, imo, was destroied since they abondon the stormstropers thing and Phasma was killed in the middle of the movie. I loved Rose/ Finn relationship and how the movie show that the heroes are not always brave and fearless, but his original arc was solved in the middle of the movie with a lame chase through galaxy. Rey and Ben relationship were amazingly portrayed. The only exception is the Rey no one, that was horrible and it was dissonant with the information from the TFA. I know that people complained a lot about Luke but I didn't think that he was so horrible, he was bitter but nobody knew what happened btw The return of the Jedi and TFA (I don't follow the expanded universe). I just think Ryan J.could have treated Luke and all jedi related things better, with more respect.
TROS was so rushed and it was clearly that the movie was heavily edited. I read that after JJ approved the final version of the movie and after that some higher up requested to have more scenes delated, apparently without JJ aproval. The last 15 minutes of the movie were horrible. Ben's death was so badly edited that there are scenes where you can see Daisy's and Adam Drivers cheeks moving, because they were speaking, but the sound was muted .... WTF?! Could they, at least, show Rey sad for one minute after Ben's death?! Also I saw some coments about the scene in Tatooine, where Rey in burrying the sabers, in slow motion is possible to see one male big hand (like Adam's hand) and that there is no scene recorded of Ben was a force ghost. Finn disapeared in this movie, the only thing that he did was following Rey around. Rey turn back to TFA, hating Ben. Ben's scenes on Mustafar didn't make to the movie, he was like a secundary character. No one knows what Kylo did to save Rey because we never saw her telling anyone, not even to her so called knew family. Did her knew family knows that she was a Palpatine? It wasn't clear for me. When the lady asked her which was her last name and she said Skywalkers sounds like that she is hiding, she didn' like what she found out about her family and shoved everything under the carpet to never be seen again (just like she acts in the beginning ot TFA).
Skywalker is not the Jedi order, the name Skywalker was the name of one of the Jedi, that turn to a Lord Sith and destroyed everything and eveyone.... Leia didn't use that name, Luke was hidden in an island because of all the weight that this name / blood carries and she took the name like it was the best thing.... 🤔🤔🤔
Where is Rose? why do we have more new characters in TROS? What happened with Benicio Del Toro character?how did Palpatine survived? How about the choosen one profecy?? Was anakin tje choosen one??
who wrote this movie was lost. Those scenes from the trio running around behind something was tiring.
For last, to end my biggest post: Paul is not Han Solo, Rey is not Luke, she is not a Skywalker
and Finn is a stormtropper who joined the resistance... the thing that Finn is force sensitive is ridiculous. People can be brave, do good things without the force. Ben Solo should have lived!! Dyad = equals in the force = both killing Palpatine!
Originally at the end of ep9 Rey dies and Ben stays alive. He goes to Tatoine, buries lightsabers and says he is a Skywalker. I think this variant makes more sense.
I think this was a debunked rumour. Yeah... it would still be tragic.
2:37 I remember when Vanity Fair did that interview at Galaxy Edge with the cast and asked them ''...with a facial expression describe the ending'' and everyone had this confused look on their face.
....now I understand.
You need a series called ''So & SO'' writing: What went wrong. This one could have been called Rise of Skywalker writing: what went wrong. Also I liked the original ending we heard 2 yrs ago....with time having passed and Rey has shorter hair, Ben has shorter hair [like the picture] that SHOWED the original ending was supposed to be Ben living at the end of TROS.
12:45 I agree, he DID do a good job with the Star Trek reboot...the only reason people WOULDN'T like it...is that they are fans of the OLD school. But I was open to it and I think they did a unique twist with it, they could have had a better actor as the villain is my only complaint with it.
Haha, when the cast is shocked and doesn't like the ending... you have a problem. Meh, what went wrong sounds like a cool series. Hopefully I'll never have to trash the writing for something I like.
The Star Trek reboot is a cool sci-fi movie, but it doesn't have the spirit. It's like a Star Wars movie without the symbolism of the force, without it's spirituality, which, by the way, is what we got with TROS.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again we all need to chip in together to buy Chris Terrio a boxed set of the Skywalker saga 😂🤣😂🤣
Fuck that, save up & pay Rian Johnson to make #10 with World Between Worlds with Adam & Daisy.
He'll watch the Luke and Leia scenes from ANH and ESB on repeat.
Lords of the Sith Podcast well at least he’d see the prequels 🤣🤣🤣
Well, while the story was whaaaa... does this have a moral lesson??? I will continue to be grateful for the amazingly complex character of Kylo/Ben. Don't give up hope. I refuse to believe Ben is gone, so in the mean time I will fantasize about how they will bring our Ben Solo back. The Skywalkers and Jedi need some healing for the next generation. Sooner or later LF/Disney will remember that!
Andrea Faust 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 #BenSoloLives ! That’s what she said! ❤️
Anyone getting annoyed now with the whole female character is the protagonist but in order to stay strong she has to be pure and her love must be killed off. Like okay you don’t need a man to save all the time in every movie but most if not all movies with female protagonist in fantasy in this modern era have this story line.
I don’t understand honestly someone help me out here.
Like Rey gets everything handed to her except the thing she needed and wanted the most a family to come back to and a family who is very much a live. Both families are dead her own parents and the one family she could of had with Ben.All the answers and things she gets are some what irrelevant to her character. There was a reason she was a nobody in TLJ and TFA.
Don’t even get me started on Bens character in this movie god they did him dirty as well as Rose !!!! Sorry really had to have a rant but I think we should also Save Rey and Save Rose !
Does anyone agree or have anything they wanna talk about because honestly this has been pissing me off since the movie and need to get it off my chest. I have only got brothers so they don’t seem to understand where I’m coming from.
Yeah, what they did with Rose was really annoying.
I have made a decision to only watch this movie when it comes on streamimg. For sure LF/Disney did not know what to do with Ben Solo - and someone inside companies were smart enough to sell that killing him would be a satisfying ending as it was for.Vader...
I am totally disappointed about how it was handling. They have been publishing comics to state that his entire life he was manipulated and no force ghost to alert Luke about it. When Yoda says we cannot loose the girl it gives impression someone tried to save Ben Solo. But the more I see/read the more I believe Ben was disregarded. It does not make sense no one wanted to help him. I would be ok about a death with meaning. Maybe it will be better handled in novelization. Hope so...😥
It is so frustrating... I wonder if Disney really believed that this final would be supported by the great majority of fan base
I feel that the issue was that they didn't know what to do. So he kind of dies, but doesn't really die, since there's no mourning, no feelings, no forceghost. He gets together with Rey but it's super brief... I mean, they should have commited to one storyline, not just try to do everything so-so trying to please everyone.
25:00 It wasn't that Force Awakens caused too many questions with lineage and such...it asked the questions with the hope of them being answered in the SECOND one. Also it WAS built up for Finn to *possibly* be Force Sensitive, cause when Finn picked up the saber to fight Kylo Ren people started thinking ''could he be a Jedi?''. But that idea got buried when TLJ came out.
Bottomline, I would have preferred this trilogy had been about Ben Solo & Rey simply the catalyst for Ben coming back to the light and her staying as No One. .....K.I.S.S.
34:49 I would have loved for Kylo Ren to have properly won that fight between him & Rey cause he IS a stronger fighter, but nope....he got distracted and Rey won by default.
Rose AND Lando had minimum screen time, but, to me, Lando stood out cause Bill Dee is such a charismatic actor. I still don't know why JJ put Rose in this film if he wasn't going to give her anything meaningful to do. Rose might as well have died off screen and that death being mentioned, otherwise it's kind of disrespectful to the actress to have/not have her in the movie at the same time.
Anyway I think Lucasfilm underestimated the appeal Kylo Ren truly had and how Ben Solo would affect the fan base with his death like you said it's because of Adam's great performance over the course of the trilogy.
I think if they had completely removed Rose it would have been much worse. They wouldn't even be able to com up with their excuses for her reduced screentime.
At least Trevarrow's script had Rose doing something important.
@@Wien1938 yes, Trevorrow script had some interesting points! But Ben dying unredeemed is just completely wild.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Absolutely agree. I looked it over last week and thought that it looked like (what I would think of) as a first draft. Some good points to develop, others to discard and tighten up in the next draft.
If that was the final product, oh dear...
The potential was there, I have heard so many good ideas from fans:
1. Your idea about how to inject the trio with some conflict (Finn and Poe finding out about force bond)
2. In the climax of the story rey somehow harming herself to get out of the Sith ritual, then having Ben defeat Palpatine and heal Rey by saying "be with me" and having the force ghosts encourage him.
Ben and Rey are an amazing beautiful story and it breaks my heart that it ended tragic 💔
On Rose Tico, I would think that JJ & Terrio had NO IDEA what to do with that character.
I'm not sure they had any idea on what to do with most of the characters... With Rose, it was just a matter of developing her relationship with Finn. Even if they broke up, that's interesting. Ignoring TLJ was weird.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast The end result starts to become understandable if we consider it to be possible that neither of the writers do character development.
In the wake of Trevarrow departing, *I* would have brought in a novelist or someone with *literary* ability to help draft a script to pull all the Ep. VII & Ep. VIII threads together to resolve the story and character arcs.
Obviously that was too difficult for the clique.
Thank you girls for another great comment, looking forward to your Ben Solo podcast. There are so many layers of disappointment that I feel about TROS, but I can honestly say that if they gave us happier, positive and above all logical ending for Ben and Rey, I would completely ignore and forgive the rest of the rushed plots and stories in this movie, and probably return to watch it few more times, as I did with Force Awakens and Last Jedi. I watched TROS once and felt so empty. So many of my girlfriends were so disappointed, and I honestly tought, are these guys complete idiots? If they only want money don't they realise that they have such a huge and devoted female fanbase who is willing to spend their hard earned money for satisfactory ending? I honestly felt offended with this movie, as with last season of Game of Thrones, and I cannot believe that these incompetent writers are getting so much money, and for what?? I watched Adam's SNL episode and it had more logic than TROS.
Thanks for this ladies. I need you to express some of the things I feel but haven’t put into words. (Though I have seen the movie four times, and totally love the Han-Ben scene.)
I love that scene, too.
2 years later and it's still a conundrum, what they did / meant to do with TROS
Saying they needed consistent story tellers. I mean that’s what Lucas story groups for. They have their own special star wars lore gatekeepers and it’s like they don’t get any input. It’s ludicrous!! Where were they when they let this go out for the public?!?
Also agree mary his back story should’ve been in movie if he were to be killed. Like snape in Harry Potter! That was so well done.
It's my belief that Disney Lucasfilm were ALWAYS going to kill off Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, merely because he is the last Skywalker that could continue that bloodline. Killing off the last link to Han, Leia, Luke and Anakin meant that they could start something new...Kylo Ren :
Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. It's the only way to become who you were meant to be.
Rey Skywalker now just happens this new Jedi probably known as "Skywalker"
"If Skywalker Returns, The New Jedi Will Rise” Snoke
So Skywalker has become this associated philosophy of finding balance through wisdom rather than a bloodline. It's all good on paper but I truly hate it. I can't stand the character Rey ...I'm so sorry about that. I do believe she is Rey ALL MIGHTY Sue...I'm not a Reylo person. It's a pity though that they killed off the best part for an ideology that went against the feelings of what the fans wanted.
At this point, I'm even hoping that Ben did meet someone... another girl at Luke's Jedi academy and that she went on to secretly bear the next blood Skywalker.
Well, yes, after everything goes to Rey and nothing to Kylo I can understand disliking Rey. "Let the past die" is a false statement of philosophy... not that I think Terrio would understand it. I think it's quite risky to start something new after ruining characters people loved, but I guess we'll see.
@@vittoriacolona Rey was privileged in that she never had the shadow of Snoke/Palpatine looming over her. Rey was privileged ...she never woke up in the middle of the night to find her uncle drawing his light saber with the intent to kill.
If Reylo was a Eurovision song, I'd like to be "My number one" by Helena Paparizou. But they was "Acrade" by Duncan Laurence. Alexander Rybak has a song "That's how you write a song". I think he has to write one about how you make a film and delicate it to J.J.
I remember last summer hearing that the plot involved finding a maguffin. I thought ...no..this is too stupid...can't be. Well, So it was.
Yeah, but TFA had the map to Luke's island, so a maguffin wasn't that unexpected... Still, this time it was like a videogame going from planet to planet...
Finn deserves a girlfriend/partner who is genuinely in love with him. Finn is incredibly sweet; he legitimately deserves to be the first choice instead of sloppy seconds. Rey is too prickly and self destructive for him if you ask me. I get that Rose may not create enough of an interesting dynamic so let him find someone else. I don't want him to have a boyfriend since Poe is off the table. My point is he is such an interesting cool character. I want him to have his own story. I just do not get the people that default set him with Rey. I was gutted when John said he had no interest in doing Disney plus. If they hadn't killed Ben off and sent me on a save Ben Solo crusade my number one choice for story continuation would be seeing Finn: find his family, develope his force powers, fall in love, become a leader, save the galaxy.... sigh. His story could be really amazing and all the drama aside Boyega is a great actor.
Oh, yes, agreed Finn is sweet and such an interesting character! I think the issue here was that they wanted to please the FinnRey shippers by leaving his future open, but it wasn't good to the character. I thought it was sad to see his character reduced to screaming Rey.
Pretty much captures the problems with this whole thing. I've been a fan for a very long time and TROS was probably the last time I'll take time off and make a real effort to see a SW flick in the theater. No more avoiding spoilers. I'll see it on the weekend like everything else and not necessarily right out of the gate either, if I go at all (I'm not seeing Johnny Fake Skywalker movies).
I just watched TROS again for a third time this evening. The ending feels rushed and disjointed
Yes, there are some issues with editing.
Daisy wanted to go to the car to ugly 😢 cry because if she wanted to cry happy tears she would have been fine just to hang out with friends and cry together and enjoy the moment. I’m not sure she knew that she would be placed on such a pedestal and made a super hero.
What a mess! How do they even come back from this? How do the fix it taking into consideration that Adam probably wants no part of this disaster?
Not sure. They could fix with books, comics, cartoons... If well done, they could do well. Another alternative is for them to hope the audience forgets the ST, but it's hard when it messed up with the Skywalker saga.
I am just so worn out now. I really just don't want to hear anymore about this movie. It doesn't even anger me anymore, it just depresses me that this ridiculousness happened. Can we talk about something else? Like some actual good things like Clone Wars returning? Or that one romance in Jedi: Fallen Order? I only bring that up because I truly think it's fantastic and worthy of standing with the main film romances. Plus I just need to hear some positivity again. It's been too long since I've heard any. It's gotten to the point that I think it's affecting my health.
Agreed! We'll do more positive videos, promise! This was just to comment on the recently leaked Trevorrow script and artbook, it's the same discussion as the previous video and we split it in half. I think we want to vend and try to process what happened. But there are tons of nice things out there, and it's better to focus on positives.
Girls it's so entertaining to listen to you. I love all your episodes.
What I liked from this Sequel Trilogy:
1. Kylo Ren. My favourite character with so much potential for good and bad, for that gray tone they wanted to give him. I loved him in TFA with all that sass (from his parents of course) and those tantrums which gave us the idea he was still in conflict.
2. Ben Solo arc. Watching my all times crush fictional son fighting as a real space cowboy, just like Han was so emotional form me, and for some minutes I thought they would give my favourite drama queens family a honorable ending.
3. Reylo of course. We knew it from the beginning.
4. The amends between Han and Ben ( at least in Ben's head).
What I did not enjoy:
1. I said this too many times: how they treated my childhood heroes: Han, Leia
and Luke.
2. The changing they made making Rey a Palpatine. I loved the idea of Rey being no part of a lineage. Rey Nobody even matches better with she adopting the Skywalker name.
3. The stormpilot didn't happened . Even Rose and Finn was cool.
4. The fate of other chatacters like Poe, Hux and Phasma.
5. The trio thing. It was so forced.
6. Too many mistakes in general.
Yes, it's good to look at the positives, too!
This is the most random thread to pick up on in this podcast, but re: ALL THE SHIPS coming in the end, a la Endgame. I remember sitting in the theatre being so ticked off that in TLJ - Leia, the leader, and hope for the galaxy puts out a distress call to help with a few stupid star destroyers, and no one comes. In this one - Lando, who hasn't had a role since Return of the Jedi, and Chewie are able to rally the entire galaxy to show up in 23 seconds and fight an entire fleet, led by Zombie Palpatine???!!! I was NOT happy...heck, I am NOT happy now. Leia just got shortchanged on all fronts, they should have had her pass away off-screen.....
It was annoying. Apparently there's some explanation in the expanded material that the transmissions from Crait were clocked or something, but it was not in the movie, so it was bad.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast 🤦 Seriously. They just need to stop now...
Finn scene was only important because he felt her die but did not feel her return. He feels Ben.
Interesting, that's true. But I guess everything was so thrown together we can't know.
When you said Poe and Finn should have discovered the force bond, the scales fell from my eyes. What if someone in the First Order learns about the bond too? It would have been interesting to explore its impact not just on them but also on the people around them or on the galaxy at large.
Great video :)
Right? It had so much potential! And yes, imagine what Hux, for example, could do with that information. Instead, Terrio whines that RJ painted him into a corner...
Love this vid! I watched TROS again and liked it better for what it is, issues and all. I've always found parts to enjoy in all the Star Wars films (even in the PT). I loved Reylo and Bendemption the most, but I still can't accept his death. Ben deserved more dialogue and a happier ending. I feel like this movie was originally 3 hours long and then Disney asked JJ to cut it down so it was more marketable and they could make more money. It was probably better as a longer film. TROS really suffered from the fast pacing and editing out parts that were needed to add context and character development. I hope they release an extended edition (not a JJ cut because I don't think that exists) eventually. I also think that maybe Disney was unsure of Ben's fate in the beginning, but by the time they were writing Episode 9, they must've decided to kill him off because both Colin and JJ's scripts included this element. I agree that this was a big mistake and missed opportunity since Ben is such a beloved character. At this point, I'm trying to accept TROS because my new hope is that Ben will return in future films. Until they prove otherwise, I'm convinced it's happening. Thanks again for all you ladies do! I love tuning in!
I think Ben should return if they don't want to lose a huge part of the fandom. But I'll no longer assume their decisions are going to be logical.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast, you have every right to feel that way. Disney has made some poor decisions with the sequel trilogy. Many fans are especially upset after TROS, including me. But, I agree, bringing Ben Solo back will start the healing process and please a majority of the fandom, in my opinion.
looked at the video title and thought that is a great question
Yeah... We try to answer it but we can't, so the title is a question.
Originally, I was one of these people who didn't necessarily expect Ben to die, but thought it was a strong possibility. He did do terrible things and they were going for a Romeo and Juliet thing with Reylo, so it wasn't completely out of the realm of possibilities. So I was in the camp of Ben was suppose to die all along. I say this because I just want to point out that my thinking more and more otherwise is not some kind of wish to be right or to have the ending I wanted. I'm saying there's one thing in TROS that happens that only makes sense to me if there's some early version of the script that exist where Ben lives.
I mean sure, a lot of TROS makes little sense if you start to think about it. Rey's parents loved her, but they also were drunks that sold her to her abuser and they did use the money on alcohol. That was too save her, but also they did throw her away like garbage because Ben wasn't lying either so both must be true. Palpatine is alive somehow. He got a gigantic army on the down low. He apparently can create beings powerful in the force which okay, but he also makes them ugly and scary so that they can get a little boy to trust them. Yes, Palpatine send Pennywise to convince baby Ben to trust you. That makes sense. Ben knows Palpatine was pretending he was Vader all along, but yet Ben still goes to the mask for guidance afterward (a glaring continuity error that probably come from a late change in the script). And that's just part of the nonsensical plot. So a lot of the film demands that you don't think too hard because everything starts to fall apart if you do.
But the Leia storyline is both nonsensical and completely useless to the plot if Ben dies. It makes a bit more sense and serves a purpose if he lives. Leia couldn't finish her training as a Jedi or else Ben would die presumably young. She stops so that he can live, but he dies anyway. What was then the point of telling us why Leia chose to give up on being a Jedi if it doesn't save him? What did it bring to the plot? Nothing at all. It has no relevance to the plot whatsoever. Her vision has no actual impact on what happens. It doesn't prophesies the end of the film and explain why Leia's body stayed until Ben died. It's just a moment of motherly anxiety that Leia had that one time. Because setting aside the fact that her being a Jedi or not seems completely unrelated to what happens to her son. Let's pretend it does. Then her vision was wrong and her son was going to die either way. What was the point of that storyline then. She has a vision. The vision is wrong. It has not effect on anything and could be taken out. It gives a reason for Leia not being a Jedi, but they could have gone a simpler route and have her give it up because she chose to go into politic instead. That would be believable and simpler than her prophetic vision that turns out wrong. To me, her vision only makes sense if in one early script, Ben lives. Her vision is correct and her choice not to be a Jedi saves her son somehow. Then that got dropped and rewritten, but they had already spent money on the CGI Luke and Leia flashback so they kept it in even though it was no longer relevant to the film ending and in fact contradicted it.
Cool comments. On the R & J thing, it's important to remember that it was a tragedy, and their deaths were sort of a punishment for the family's tragic flaw. Both of them died, so neither remained alone, and they spent time together before dying. It's very different. That's some of what I meant with the idea that the ST doesn't fit the tragedy arc. And it doesn't fit it because it would mean that the Skywalker family had somehow to "pay".
Yes, I think the changes explain the nonsensical plot. I have no clue why they decided to add Jedi Leia. I mean, had it been there since TFA, it would have been cool, but this late in the game was stupid.
Oh, well.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast About the Romeo & Juliet thing, I agree and disagree. On the one hand, you're absolutely right about the meaning of the play, but on the other, I don't think JJ thought about Romeo & Juliet in terms of the play. I was actually in Verona a few weeks ago. I stopped by to see Juliet's balcony and the love notes and letters people leave on the wall there. There were a lot of tourists, couples taking pictures etc. I think JJ thought of Romeo and Juliet in those terms, meaning in terms of the quick key words people associate with them that makes people go visit Juliet's balcony for a romantic getaway (Star crossed, young love, tragedy, feuding families). I think that's as far as he went with the parallels. He got two lovers on two opposite side of the force, from two families that have fought against each other before, and maybe the lovers die (I mean they did both die, Rey just got resurrected and maybe in an alternate version the same happened with Ben). I think he used references to Romeo and Juliet more as a cultural signifier that reminds people of tragic romance and opposite sides than to communicate any deep meaning about the saga. Same thing with his references to fairy tales. You can draw parallels with Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and Beauty and the Beast, but I think JJ mostly uses that again to reinforce the idea that these two are a storybook romance (and the metaphorical idea of transformation for Ben that has become popular in modern interpretations of Beauty and Beast post-Disney). It doesn't appear to me that he meant anything deeper by making use of the stories psychoanalytic readings for example. If he did then chances are that the rewrites changed that because I cannot see it. So I agree that using Romeo and Juliet as a parallel actually brings with it deeper meaning about the conflict between the two side of the force and the Skywalkers and Palpatine that implies that the war of the films is ultimately a petty conflict for which they must pay, but I don't think JJ thought that far about the implications. I think he just wanted to use a cultural reference everyone has a vague concept of as a story telling short-cut.
Finn Rey would have been worse - but it doesn’t justify what they did to Ben - and Rey!! Thanks for doing this you guys. Much appreciated!
No problem. Glad you liked it!
I’m curious. Would it be worse because he’s black or because he’s “too nice” to her? Either one says a LOT about you.
@@Arander92 Neither :) It would have been worse because he and Rose were set up in TLJ - it would have been SO disrespectful to have him end up with Rey when he was clearly set up to be with Rose! I am a Rose fan. I am defensive for her.
Heeey another one! Love you Girls!
As someone who has never cared for star trek, the 2009 reboot really made me reevaluate. I loved that movie.
It is a good movie. It seems that it was made for people who don't like Star Trek, though. I wish they'd kept more of the spirit of the Original Series.
In April at SWCC, the assembled cast (minus Mr Driver) was asked if they knew the ending. Only Ms Ridley and Ms Ackie raised their hands. Mr Boyega didn’t know the ending, and while this doesn’t rule out changes in the re shoots, it does make me skeptical of a romantic FinnRey ending.
You're so right. It's true. And Boyega said that he didn't know the ending because he didn't see a lot of scenes between Rey and Kylo...
Unless this ending with Finn and Rey promising to train him was filmed after SWCC, which is possible. It seems that something was cut because we never learn what Finn wanted to tell Rey.
I don't think they were going for romantic Finn/Rey because Boyega himself denied it, and because of the amount of Rey/Kylo. I think something was cut, but I don't think it would be obviously romantic.
Yes the movie needed more conflict but I feel overall it just needed more time. They should have split the movie into a part one and part two. I think then I could be more at peace with Ben's death if there was a little bit more time for Ben's backstory & development. I really wanted to see more meaningful interactions between Rey and Kylo/Ben. Of course his mother too but due to Carrie Fisher's death I could see where that would have been difficult.
"Rise of Skywalker" = cater to the haters. Think about it:
1] A bunch of racists chased Kelly Marie Tran off of social media, and her character was minimized to near-nonexistance.
2] Several people also harassed Daisy Ridley and said that Rey couldn't be that strong that quickly on her own, calling her "a Mary-Sue" in a sneering way. Even the movie itself seems to have a hard time with such a strong woman, with Poe getting dangerously close to calling her a b***h at one point.
3] Ben endured extensive mental torture throughout his life, even back in the embryonic stage, but he did make a lot of effort and progress in moving beyond it. Despite that, there were still cut-and-dry people out there, who were, like, "Nope. Mm-mm. He killed his father. He deserves to die, and be swept aside. The end." They got what they wanted.
& 4] Ever since TFA, there was a group, practically walking around with clubs and torches, calling out for Rey to be a Skywalker, and she "becomes" one at the end of this movie.
There were many other points I could've talked about, but I wanted to highlight the major ones I noticed. I just couldn't believe somebody as powerful in Hollywood as JJ Abrams essentially bowed down to the haters like this. I couldn't stop shaking my head, before I even left the theater.
Look guys i dont want to tell you what you should do and its obvious this is all still wracking your heads, but there is honestly nothing to work out here, no matter how you keep thinking and exploring it. The truth is on the wall girls/ladies. They tried waay too hard to plz everyone of us, instead of just choosing one particular demographic.
Ahh but then who should they have chose? You Reylos or us passionate Star Wars fans who wanted a compelling story and consistency and for the 3 OT characters - Luke, Leia and Han all together on screen one last time?
I know what i would have done, if it were me i would have made the sequel trilogy based purely from George Lucas' treatments of Episodes 7, 8 & 9. Basically i would have dealt with honoring Lucas' legacy first.
Then i would have made this Rey/Kylo dynamic trilogy idea to appeal to all the women and girls out there, and do this "Reylo" thing properly for your demographic. You may not like hearing this but i honestly believe you just cant plz both demographics.
The "Skywalker Saga" was already played out, the consistency should have been basically about a new generation, and grandchildren of the Skywalkers. Luke, Han and Leia should never have been written the way they were, they should have all had a "positive" relevance to the new generation in the story. Not been killed off one in each episode.
Yes, that makes sense. I think they didn't need to have arcs. If it was just about passing the torch, there was no reason to make them conflicted/suffering, etc.
First off: Why the fuck weren't you ladies writing the script? It would have been light years better.
Second: I don't think that whoever made the decision to kill Ben was thinking about the messages being sent as a result. Have you been abused, or have mental illness due to genetics/extensive trauma? Well, you're fucked buddy. Want to turn your life around after making some bad decisions and try to be a better person? Don't bother because you'll just die five minutes later.
Third: In killing Ben, Rey's literal soulmate as you said, instead of giving us a strong, independent Disney Princess, we got a brave peasant girl who got fucked over by losing her Prince.
Fourth: Now that there are no more Saga films being made hopefully the competent people in LucasFilm can fix this, like Pablo Hidalgo and Dave Filoni. Pablo has even left us a bunch of clues about the World Between Worlds, and since I think that Ahsoka is still alive and has personal experience with the WBW, this could lead to her and Rey crossing paths, and Ahsoka helping her get to the WBW and getting her man back.
Edit: Finally: If Disney/LucasFilm is aware of how popular Baby Yoda is, then they're aware of how pissed off and disappointed we are with Ben's death.
Lots of people could have written better scripts, I think. Agreed that they didn't think about the meaning of their choices in the movie. I think DLF knows the movie didn't sit well. Either they fix this or they'll have a huge chunck of their audience with a bad taste in their mouths and distrust on LF. Who knows what they'll do.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Either way I will never watch TROS again. If I cry because of a movie I want it to be from overwhelming happiness, not because it broke my heart 💔💔💔💔💔💔💔
Third time’s a charm 😊 Yeah, I watched the movie a third time yesterday & I’m here to defend it but also point out where it missed the mark. In my opinion, as I’ve already stated in previous posts, the movie works as it is & I really love it. However, there are two things that are lacking somehow & their absence remove some emotional weight from other scenes.
1. In order to truly make this movie better & work as it is (which I think it still does), I lack a scene where Rey & Kylo/Ben talks to (preferably) a third person about their relationship. Both characters sort of figure out how their relationship works as they go along but it’s much harder for the audience to understand it. How to fix this? Instead of having them talk before the Han-Ben encounter (after deeply considering it, I believe that it’s the right choice for Rey to storm off after their lightsaber fight), they really should’ve had Rey talk to Luke about the nature of their relationship & how she feels (in some little way). Likewise they should’ve let Kylo/Ben talk about them with Han. That way Luke, for example, could’ve put into words what a dyad is, and Han would’ve been the perfect contender for talking to his son about love relationships in all their complexity. As it is now, too much is left for the viewers to figure out on their own, which leave many either confused and/or dissatisfied. THAT is a detail that shouldn’t have been left to our imagination & would’ve made many more moviegoers MUCH happier.
2. The second, and actually the most important thing, is some kind of closure after Ben’s death. What we get now is some general grief from Rey but we really don’t know what’s going on inside her mind. Maybe the novelization could ”correct” this but it should’ve been in the movie & I HOPE there’s some scene in the extended cut where we actually see Rey grieve, maybe bury a piece of his clothing (she apparently at least took the time to pick up the lightsabers after he died) &, even better, talk about him. Some may complain about Leia’s death but she does get closure & people talk about her & her impact after her death. However, that’s not the case with Kylo/Ben. His character just happens to be the most beloved one in the sequels &, after Rey, the second most important one in the story. Despite this fact, as you & many others have pointed out, it appears that his existence is erased after his death & no one talks about him & there’s not even a moment where he’s alluded to. THAT is a problem &, I believe, a cause for much anger. If we’d been given even the tiniest moment of Rey clearly honouring his memory & the strange & complex but important connection that they had (the burying of a piece cloth from his clothes or even just some kind of conversation about him) THEN the movie would’ve been close to perfect. The focus would not even need to be on the romantic/erotic aspects of their relationship but the fact that they were soulmates, equals & deeply understood each other despite coming from such different places at the start of the sequels. Leaving Ben’s legacy up to our imagination is too much asked of Abrams & Terrio. No matter if a fan is pro Reylo or not OR happy about Ben’s death or not, all might still wish for a satisfying end for Rey and/or Ben. In Rey’s case, her end is satisfying or at least close to satisfying but in Ben’s case it isn’t.
I’m fully aware of the fact that I’m repeating much of what you girls have already said & what many others also have pointed out. I’m just at a point where I’m able to detach myself from my feelings about the movie (my grief over Ben’s death! 😳) & think clearly 😊 Much love to all of you! ❤️❤️❤️
Agreed. Especially on the issue about closure on Ben's death.
Lords of the Sith Podcast I could imagine that Disney will later explain that the burial of the sabers was symbolic not only for Luke & Leia but also for Ben’s & Rey’s relationship (the last two people who wielded them together). Still, if that would’ve been the case, it should’ve come across MUCH clearer. I mean, Rey could’ve buried the lightsabers wrapped inside a piece of Ben’s top (the part with the hole in it) - cheesy, maybe, but that could’ve shown us that he meant something to her & that she wants to honour his memory (the only person left to do so 😳). Something along those lines could’ve worked but dialogue about him would’ve been even better.
@@mathildabacklund5976 true. Burying two objects together is similar to some traditions where you do this with a couple's objects. It's pretty uncomfortable, and no wonder people say it suggests twincest... But if they were to represent Rey and Ben... Still sad, right, I mean, she's not dead.
Lords of the Sith Podcast Agree - very sad 😢 Ben’s death still hurts for me & we all know that Rey WILL grieve Ben (their relationship in all its complexity) for the rest of her life. I genuinely wish that they would’ve shown us this - a million options available. That’s personally my only major complaint about Disney & their work with Star Wars ❤️ What if we got a series with Finn, Poe & Rey where they could show us what impact Ben has had on her? He gave her his LIFE & I just want EVERYONE to know how much that matters to her, despite their toxic past. Yeah, a great series would be awesome! I honestly wish they would’ve scrapped the triology-format from the start & given us a series instead. Imagine that! 🤩
People have been telling me to make a head cannon about Ben coming back to comfort myself through this mess, but I just can’t accept the plot as it was in RoS. I mean, I’m still also ‘saltier than crate’ that the had the GALL to call this movie Rise of Skywalker when they killed the last of the Skywalker bloodline with no emotion or dignity, and then proceeded to never look back. Idk, I guess Mary and I share a brain.
Anyway. I’ve thought instead about how I would have made the plot better. It’s really hard to rap up 9 movies simultaneously, but I think I figured out what I would do.
If I were just to alter the ending, I’d cut out the entire ‘fight’ with Palpatine. It’s stupid, rehashed. The whole tapping the dyad thing is not set up in the story at any point, and it’s just a hamfisted effort to get us back to the same scene we already saw at the end of the Return of the Jedi. No. Make the two of them have to choose who is going to kill him to end all of this. Meaning, who is going to have to fight the darkness inside themselves. Ben says he will do it. He and Rey promise they’ll try to overcome it, but if Ben turns too far, Rey will put him down before the Sith presence takes him over too much. They’ll have an emotional moment while Palpatine mocks them, and then Rey will kill him out of the clear blue sky, knowing Ben wouldn’t have let her if he knew it was coming. The scene will then alternate between Ben and Rey physically fighting (her strength redoubled and very aggressive while she’s losing the struggle) and Ben trying to reason with and help Rey resist the onslaught of evil power. Ben will hear Palpatine’s voice one last time, urging him to let her fall to the darkness - because it will give Ben everything he wants. Rey at his side, the power of the dark side behind them, ruling the galaxy by force. But Ben rejects Palpatine, and helps Rey as she continues to struggle. Rey overcomes him eventually - and it seems that she may kill him. She regains self control at the last moment, and they embrace. Rey tells him it hurts, and she doesn’t know if she can hold on. Anakin’s spirit appears at last, explains to Ben he’s been trying to reach him all along, but he couldn’t until Ben rejected Palpatine and the dark side altogether. With the help of the other force ghosts we know and love, Anakin wrenches the spirit energy from the dark side out of Rey. It appears as a wraithlike representation of Palpatine himself. Without a body to sustain it, and without the connection to the light side, the energy fades away. Anakin looks at peace - Balance is restored and his prophecy fulfilled. He and the other ghosts vanish as Rey and Ben embrace and share their first kiss.
Although, to be SUPER honest, the fact that Ben had no reaction to being told that his Grandfather and mentor’s influence on his whole life had been a lie, and that everything he believed and stood for and the acceptance he thought he’d found was totally manufactured is something I will never, never, NEVER get over. Ben should have run sobbing back to Rey and his Momma at that moment, begging for forgiveness. He should have switched sides in minute 5 of that movie and worked to earn the trust of his new companions for the rest of it.
Cool ideas! And yes, it was so weird that he showed no reaction to the reveal that Darth Vader was a lie!!! It should have been a major turning point. I don't doubt they added the line late, though. So it was meaningless. So much wasted potential.
I believe that Ben has become more powerful in death then he was ever alive. . Adam Driver did have a last line ! I believe Ben is not dead but was saved by leia at the last moment and he is in the world of worlds. Where Rey will go to find him . Excegol is the gateway. Skywalker's means the ones that walk the skys patrolling them for balance. That's canon.
I cant help feeling with you girls that we watched two different movies altogether. I loved the movie and wish it was so much longer. Much of Skywalker ties in beautiful with the last Jedi. Star Wars fan votes with theire feet .the kids was tender beautiful poignant . Dident one of you pretended to puke !!!! Oh well I want be listening to you anymore I honestly dont share your interpretation views and your shallow ideas of storytelling Could not disagree with you more. I loved the Trilogy . Perfect ending the Rise of Starwalker . Ben willbe back !!!!
The damage has been done, you women need a original story about love and this different relationship idea you're all hooked on made into a original Star Wars movie. I think maybe Kathleen Kennedy should hire a female director and writer to tell a unique story from a woman's perspective set inside the Star Wars Galaxy.
Such a story should never have been told within the already established Star Wars Saga because in fan's minds they had grown with the OT characters and automatically expected to see Luke Skywalker as a great Jedi Master, give him flaws by all means, but allow him to overcome them and be with his friends once again, also allow him to aid and guide the new generation, not shut him off in isolation for fear of how much a iconic character he simply is. After all its called "The Skywalkers" thats what this saga was always about.
Then this Reylo idea could have been told in a separate and new "trilogy", i.e. the characters of Rey and Kylo should have been introduced in a whole new trilogy.
Now they have ruined everything because when the character of Rey and her Yellow lightsaber do eventually return one day (and she will trust me it ALWAYS happens look at Ford, Hamil and Fisher returning to reprise their roles decades later); what can be done with the character of Rey in the future?
Just have her as somekind of great mentor (will she be flawed and depressed when she is older like a much older Luke was in TLJ? Hmmm), and where would Ben Solo be at this point? At her side as a force ghost?
There have been no winners here in the fan base. Us fans never got what we wanted, we never got a return all on screen of Han, Luke and Leia together. And you Reylos never got Rey and Ben together at the end happy ever after.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just don't think it's such a different love story; just look at Luke and Mara. But they should have planned this better and not rushed into continuing a story that was so beloved by all of us, sometimes ruining character arcs.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Well yes actually thats a good point, Mara started out trying to take Luke out and then fell for him.
I think when you're trying to deconstruct the very mythos of Star wars inside a well known saga that has been continuous for like 30 years, alot of fans invested in specific characters, they have to be treated with respect.
It is sad the way its all ended up now. But i like to think its not the end completely.
I hope once we can get past this third-wave Feminism and all the man-bashing. I mean Amber heard's true colors have proved not all men are bad and the media unfairly twist things.
Once we can get past all this division, of Hollywood playing us off against each other (men told a certain movie isnt for them so they stay away, then when said movie fails men are blamed and called sexist), there is a hypocrisy here in Hollywood.
I do understand what you women want, well in Star wars thats is, you want such romance stories told from the opposite angle, kind of flipped round?
You thought you would get this from Reylo within the Disney Trilogy.
As a guy myself (and big Star Wars fan) i would very much like to see such a original story, of a empowered female character, who finds love, where the tropes are reversed, but such a story has to be masterfully written.
It needs to be compelling, and draw us in, not alienate any one particular demographic of the fans.
There has to be a original story out there which can draw us in, its like explore WHY do some many fans out there love the character of Ashoka Tano in the Clone Wars series?
They need to do it in a way that doesnt divide us, because so far all i see is stories and movies made that just straight out "gender swap" roles of famous movies and stories. E.g. rumors of a female James Bond, "Jane Bond". Or like what if they ever tried to make a female Gandalf?
What do you think of this? Would you be for it? Or do you feel that is pushing it too far?
@@RaikenXion I think plain gender swap is a bit lazy. I think the first ingredient is thinking about a good story. If the story is compelling and the characters well-rouned, most people will like them.
No wonder John Boyega is salty about his role in the trilogy, but still don't be a douche! And I wanted to barf on the trio! I knew when they started pushing it that it was a bad sign. They were trying to divert us to the happy, fun trio since they were going to devastate the whole Rey/Ben thing.
I was so looking forward to watching the whole series with my nieces and nephew when they get a little older. But there's no way I'm gonna show them this nihilistic b.s. now.
Did I imagine or did Rey’s buns and old clothes come back at the end?
It was the buns and white clothes from IX... but it's very similar to TFA.
Lords of the Sith Podcast thanks nice to know that not everything was messy
@@boobooweezlz5764 Almost everything was messy!