How to Write a Strong Female Character...who isn't toxic and annoying
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- Опубликовано: 4 май 2024
- Do you want to know how to write a strong female character? That's the big question we're tackling today. Black Widow and Captain Marvel are two of the most iconic “strong female characters” in the Marvel Cinematic Universe... but what if I told you that one of them is stronger than the other? And it’s NOT the one with superpowers? In this video, we're going to explore the differences between these two characters and solve the mystery of why so many people love Black Widow, and why so many people hate Captain Marvel. Is there a science behind the strong female character? Let's figure it out.
Don't forget to donate to the fundraiser on this video to help Operation Underground Railroad to rescue children from human trafficking and sexual exploitation. 100% of your donations today will go straight to fund missions to set kids free. To learn more about ways you can help bring an end to slavery, visit: ourrescue.org/
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✨ T I M E S T A M P S ✨
00:00 Introduction
02:21 SOS: Help Operation Underground Railroad free kids from slavery
03:30 Why does everyone hate Captain Marvel?
05:00 What makes a character strong?
09:38 Captain Marvel vs Black Widow
10:30 Character Analysis: Carol Danvers
13:45 What about the amnesia trope?
15:30 Do emotions = weakness?
19:02 Character Analysis: Natasha Romanoff
25:14 Final thoughts
27:30 Subscribe for more writing videos :)
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Honestly, if we just rephrased “Strong Female Characters” as “Compelling Female Characters” I think we would eliminate a lot of the confusion right off the bat.
Very good point. Rey Skywalker/Palpatine was strong as hell, and not compelling in the least.
People are confusing strong females with strong female *characters*
In the west where women have all protection and Providence afforded to them ( apparently) their is no need to be physically strong or look strong .Right ?we should be these willowy , insipid petite creatures easily malleable and compliant .
Look at the news of Fantastic four the lady character embodied a of that . Reality chumps fantasy here too I'm afraid
That's what I was thinking. It's never been (Strong Female) Characters. It's always been Strong (Female Characters.)
Awesome point
something i’ve always noticed is that “strong female characters” entire personality are just stereotypical toxic male traits. a strong female character should be a strong character first, female second.
What some other youtuber said, "strong female" characters, is toxic masculinity with a wig.
It's a problem across all minority characters with agenda baiting Hollywood. Potentially great characters get sidelined, underutilized, or are made gross stereotypes, making their minority status their entire personality. It's the lowest form of tokenism & isn't representative of any group. As I keep saying, woke sjw types are just as bigoted as their right-wing counterparts, they're just 2 heads to same disgusting coin.
But it doesn’t has to be. If we look at Hermione Granger or Ahsoka Tano for example.
yeah, I find it ironic that so many of these people that support these types of characters and create them always go on and on about hating men and belittling them as much as possible and yelling "the patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" every time something doesn't go their way, but yet they are the ones that are trying to mimic all the toxic behaviors they blame men for and try to spin it as a form of "empowerment" for themselves. they want to be the very thing they hate and project onto others.
Well said
i think Carol's flaw is actually being emotionless. if they had set that up as her fatal flaw from the beginning (instead of trying to say shes "too emotional" when she actually doesn't show any emotion) and then had her develop into a character who embraces her emotions and uses them to become stronger, it would have made her a much more likeable character and fit with the overall theme of the movie that they were trying to achieve
that would have been great. she could have been a woman who cultivated emotionlessness as a means to cope with the sexism she experienced in life because that worked to get people to respect and leave her alone. this would have made her esteemed among the kree, she gains their approval for this lack of emotionality - but her story arc can be about how she learns to regain her human and feminine ability to emote, and discover that she no longer needs to be emotionless to cope with others, and in fact her coping strategy was becoming a liability, and growing beyond that is what makes her stronger and more effective as a hero.
This is where I begin to question whether it is the actress's fault or the script, because the movie says she's too emotional while she showed no emotions AT ALL.
@@nurainiarsad7395 yess that would be amazing!!
@@Jay9966 yeah :(
But the thing with captain marvel is that she is something that you would call an acual superhero not like someone like lets say ironman who is a supehero too but he has a life of his own a child a wife ik but carol she is a supperhero full on she is a powerful woman cuz of her powers and cuz she is basicly emotionless cuz she dosen't have many loved ones like i can name her cat and maria rambeou and monice and thats basically it she knows nick furye but its not a strong friendship yk
For some reason, women with a caring heart and motherly instincts seem to be looked at as weak, because I hardly ever see "strong female characters" with those traits. One of the reasons Galadriel (the original galadriel) left such an impact in such short screen time is because she is so comforting and motherly while also being one of the most powerful people in middle earth
I'm gonna call this one out, because The STRONGEST female characters were exactly that BECAUSE of their motherly instincts.
Ripley from Aliens is a perfect example of this. She so tender and thoughtful with Newt and she turns into a ball of psychotic murderous rage when Newt is taken. She's downright terrifying. Even the men left alive know better than to try and talk her out of it despite the fact that everything is about to explode. Hell itself cannot dissuade her once she goes full mama bear.
Consider another example that of Mrs. Brisby in the Secret of Nimh. Oh sure she comes across as very traditionally feminine, quiet, reserved, cautious, maybe even weak, but the film repeatedly demonstrates how brave and hardy she really is. She is REALLY tough and she will do anything, absolutely anything to protect her kids and multiple times she throws herself into harm's way.
Truth be told you can go down the list for well written, strong women, and often (not always) them being a mother is a key component of that strength. I think the problem is we as audiences have come to believe that schlocky Action Hero Man(tm) traits are what constitutes "strong" and we forget that "strong" is actually a lot of things and yes, by and large most women aren't as "strong" physically as men so feminine strength looks different. It usually comes in the form of moral courage and bravery and the willingness to be self sacrificing, possibly against long odds because SOMEONE must stand up to evil to save those who cannot save themselves. And the mama bear who acts on passion and love without thought for her own safety of well being...is that not a perfect representation of heroic action? Going into a fight you KNOW you can't win physically... that's BRAVE, that's true bravery.
And I think audiences are smart enough to notice it when it's written right.
Yes feminine nature still is considered inferior
@@kashishahmed6714 literally no culture surviving today has ever thought this. Motherhood is revered and sacred in every culture. It is the absolute distillation of feminity. And it is protected above all else.
Tolkien knew what he was doing. In WW2 women were behind the lines as nurses healing the wounded. You can imagine how strong those women were to be there supporting the men and what an effect it must have had on them. I think Tolkien knew the impact a motherly touch has and included it in his novel. They didn't have to fight but they were there.
It's weird because people SAY feminine traits are undervalued... despite CONSTANT celebration of them. And not just in the modern world. Look throughout history and see it replete with celebrations of women and femininity and ESPECIALLY motherhood.
The problem is that modern activists started bashing masculine traits, but ALSO buying into the idea that these traits are superior (rather than COMPLEMENTARY)
So, writers are chosen to pander to these ideas. Women MUST be strong stoic flawless heroes to avoid implying that women are weak, while men are (rightly) displayed with greater emotional range but (wrongly) often demeaned or reduced to irrelevance or stereotype. Even a man displaying traditionally positive masculine virtues can be attacked as toxic these days, which is unfortunate (and I speak as a quite non-traditional man. I am emotional, caring and many of my preferences are seen as feminine. I like cats, I like to read and bake, I like to dance and I'm not into sports or drinking culture. But I don't think a sport loving, car driving fisherman who prefers to remain stoic is a bad or toxic man... funny that)
I heard a really good quote for this a while back:
"A good strong female character is a good character who happens to be a woman, not a character who is strong because they are a woman"
thats true i like it
Basically its the actual strength (physically or mentally) that matters and not the gender
If I remember right that was nux wise words indeed.
And yet people call characters like that Toxic because they're not leaning into stereotypically female traits.
@@backgroundcharacter3153 yes, the unexpected source
In an interview with Game of Thrones writer George R R Martin, the interviewer asked “I noticed you write women really well and really different, where does that come from?” His answer was “You know, I’ve always considered women to be people.”
Writer’s should try to start with that.
Great point! One of the harms of identity politics -- especially in fiction -- is that it tends to obscure the common humanity of people.
Ironically, it often leads to more stereotyping of characters rather than less. One of the things I dislike about Hollywood's weird conception of "strong female characters" is they seem to suffer from toxic masculinity but in a female body. (And then you get a patronizing lecture on top of it.)☹
These woke writers shud really learn from the people who made Annihilation 2018. The lead characters are a grup of women but the script doesn’t make a big deal out of it
“I’ve always considered women to be people.”
@@noobmasterruben5167 just like the Descent, not a single male character except for the main characters husband. But that movie is pretty good and you love the story, its a horror story so therefore you know the ending of horror stories
But i absolutely love that movie, not only there are female leads but you never really think of the female characters because how well they're written
Generic woke quote
I guess a good example would be old Mulan VS the new one.
In the old one she struggles, builds new skills, overcomes things she can't do by pure physical strength with new strategies etc
In the new movie she can do stuff because she is special and a magicly skilled chosen one...
The first one teaches that things are approachable by having the courage to try it, by practice and smart thinking. The new one has a hero that is the way she is naturally. No motivation for people to fight for their goals or to put effort in becoming better at something or in finding a way to overcome a hurdle. New Mulan is just gifzet her goal because she is special... Quite discouraging as in reality no one just gifts you a life skill. While you might be able to learn something quick, it's not that you are an expert by default and therefore can become anything just by wanting it without any practice, efford, tests and hurdle whatsoever.
Exactly, I pointed this out and my Feminist cousin said "Oh you just hate Women". Like she is delusional in the Propaganda and doesn't even understand what the problem is
I've always loved the quote, "Hard work beats natural talent every time."
Old mulan didn't have the strength of the men around her, she became a hero because of her quick thinking and clever solutions to problems, the new mulan scrapped this idea and made her superhumanly fast and strong.
This didn't provide a relatable or interesting narrative, which is why I prefer the old mulan movie
Ok first off, 99% of first female characters *are* toxic, pointless, useless, ridiculous, pathetic... ( I can keep going). Women, especially nowadays, are just child minded I mean they think like kids, react like kids, cry like kids, get angry like kids... Look at that Marvel thing actress, she's serious about being superior to Thor or whatever : because of a cinema ROLE, I mean what the hell you dumb little B lol ? Look at that Daenerys Targaryen actress, who comes up with a pathetic reggae freestyle to tell us "look at me I have dragons, I'm Queen of Meereen, careful I'm dangerous You can't TaLk tO mE", again, I can keep going. The more I go further in life, the more I become misogyn, and you can not seriously blame me.
One of the only disney films i like
There’s one line in Little Women that stands out to me when I think of the erasure of femininity within the trope of strong female characters. Meg to Jo about wanting a family instead of an acting career: “Just because my dreams are different than yours doesn't mean they're unimportant.” They’re each strong characters in the true sense of the meaning.
Ooh! Good! I haven’t ever read “Little Women” but I like that! 👍🏻
@@JohnWelsh-oz3jz It’s actually a quote that is original to the screenplay in the 2019 movie version.
Step one: Write a character with goals, flaws, ideals and so on.
Step two: Flip a coin for the gender, heads for male, tails for female.
Brilliant!
Honestly, thats pretty much how i create characters
Or if gender plays a role in character development, pick that gender (example Merida in Brave)
Alternatively, you could roll the dice to see.
I... don't think it quite works that way. A character's gender should affect who they are and you are allowed to prefer them being one way over the other.
@@CrazyHand7894 It basically depends on what character you are making. It isn't exclusive
"Being strong isn't about overpowering others." Well said.
It's so ironic that all the messages condemn dominance and coldness etc: yet everything male-related was JUST THAT.
And for years we battled to say men dont have to be thay and can be better.
Now you guys turn around and say it, as if females werent already repeating this for ages and ages.
Men to this day are still stuck in the violent behabiors that they think makes them "males".
It creates problems for everyone around them, and themselves.
But your attention is focused on these movies....
@@FocusedFighter777 I'm a male. Rapidly approaching my 30s. I have a scar on my forehead. I'm 6'1", a big guy that eats a lot of protein, shaggy appearance and I always have a beard or stubble.
I also am a pacifist, the only fight I ever got in, I cried afterwards. Not because I was in pain, but because I hurt someone else and was overwhelmed. I have two sisters. I take care of my mother whom has a terminal illness. I have female friends.
I am not cold nor dominant and I never have been. In fact, my entire life I have been ashamed to be a man because of feminists like you that project their bad experiences with *some* males onto *ALL* males and actively try to make us feel ashamed/ apologetic for something we had no part in. Just like you had no part in some of my female partners, friends and acquaintances, hurting or belittling me.
@@FocusedFighter777 Just think, growing up with the expectations of your father to be "a man". Stoic, prepared, a provider. Alongside the shame put on you by women for existing. What do you do? You can't win either way. If you're an effeminate male, normal women are not attracted to you, your dad is not proud of you, feminists still hate you. Put yourself in the position of males growing up in this generation, and the generation before. We have strived for equality and still do. That much is absolutely evident in every single democracy.
Yet there is *still* a gender war based on crimes we didn't commit, based on laws that no longer exist, based on equality that is a double standard, and it all messes with us from our formative years and onwards. I would have been having fun and healthy relationships with women outside of my family much earlier in life if this BS propaganda you are spewing didn't exist. I would've been less afraid of consequences that don't actually exist. I wouldn't have spent years shutting down on the girls that I like because I wasn't sure how to even *be* around them, in fear I was somehow being too much of a "guy" and that's "disgusting".
At this point it's just misdirected anger and hate. It's prejudice. It's entitlement. It's really hard to be (shock) *a human*. A *person*. It's not hard to be a male, or a female, or any other gender you want to assign yourself. It's just hard to be *a person* in general, and we should all learn to let go or forgive our hatred and understand our misconceptions lay with individuals not entire groups.
Lol just say you dont like female characters with a lot of Powers
@@jakemurray4346 cope😊
"You need to be flawless to be strong. You can't ask for help. You can't show emotions." I believe this is exactly what our society has been doing to men which has made a lot of them suffer. Bringing the exact same toxicity to women is not "empowering" anyone 😮💨
It would be funny to ask women to react the same in society. You want to cry ? Suck it up ! You feel humiliated ? Don't show, keep the poker face !
I'm going to have to disagree. As a woman you probably have a very different view, but for men it doesn't matter if you ask for help; Our problems are laughed at or ignored. That's why we don't *bother* asking for help as we know we won't get it. From male suicides being far higher to lower and lower enrollment of men in higher education, these are problems that are decades old but commonly ignored. At best we get some attention for abuse cases, but mostly because it affects both males and females. If it impacts just males, it's simply pretended it doesn't exist or doesn't get any attention. In the same way we can show emotions just fine, but at an early age we learn (ironically mostly from girls) that showing your emotions will have those used against you. Just look at how society (though mostly women) react to incels. They're seen as pathetic, they're neither getting help nor sympathy from most places. The only groups that have any kind of sympathy for them are MGTOW and such.
So I disagree with you on the basis that it's not about asking for help or showing emotions. It's that we know doing that would either have no effect or be used against us. That's what makes most men suffer.
@@ym5891 I'm a woman, and I agree. Even to me, who strongly believes men should show emotions, when a man starts to cry, it feels so weird. I think that's why in movies, when men cry, it's heartbreaking to see and hear them. I'm sorry you men have to go throught this, it's not fair.
@@ym5891Well, a lot of incels, as you said with most men, will refuse help, but what you didn’t mention is that they think they’re right, and they think women owe them for their existence in the universe, so you’re not quite right about the rest of that part. Everyone that has an issue being toxic needs to listen to criticism and actually fix it themselves, but I guess they could be told to get help in better ways. But the male toxicity has been worked on for ages, and bringing male toxicity to women without fixing other toxicities against women is just making more toxicity for women all around and more impossible expectations. Even women are criticized for their emotions, saying they’re “irrational” for having any, I guess it’s just not explicitly said so it seems better. For me it stops feeling like a sexism thing and more of a controlling thing and women are just easier to control in some aspects thanks to the way society is made.
@@astraamarante6233
A lot of the characteristics of incels universally condemned by almost everybody are present everywhere in society and are being ignored in those areas. The idea you are owed things for simply existing is toxic and always will be. We expect incels to have some self accountability and focus on bettering themselves rather than blaming everyone else but strangely enough don't seem to expect that out of anyone else.
I think another of Natasha's flaws that we see in Avengers is that she is a solo agent who has a need to be in control of situations. She was calm and efficient during her "interrogation" with the Russians because she knew everything was going the way she wanted and that she could take them all down if things went wrong, but she got nervous when she was told that she was bringing in "the Big Guy" because she wasn't sure she could handle the situation if Banner turned into the Hulk. It's never stated, but I think she grows to become more comfortable with chaotic situations because she grew to trust her team, and their collective ability to solve problems.
LET'S ADMIT NATASHA IS THE ONLY STRONG female CHARACTER of MCU!
I actually sincerely think Cinderella is a strong female character. She's growing up in a horrible situation, bereaved of both parents who loved her, abused by those she lives with....and she remains positive, tries her best to do what's asked of her, and when she gets out of there (depending on what version you read) she doesn't even exact revenge. Honestly, that's an incredible human being. I hate when people cite Cinderella as a "weak woman" example. She's not. She's tougher than most.
Lol she is not. She didn't deal with her problems. Instead, they were solved by a fairy or a rich MAN with a foot fetish.
@@vi8799 that's just because of the time period it was based on and the location
I think the 2015 Disney film actually did justice to Cinderella's character, given the time period and her social status. Her sticking to the "Be kind and have courage" motto is strength in my opinion.
@@vi8799 So, do you hold Luke Skywalker to the same standard then? Did he blow up the first Death Star by himself? No. He had lots of help and had it not been for the help he got, he couldn't have solved anything. Did he rescue his friends from Darth Vader in Empire? No. He ended up getting his hand chopped off and having to be helped by Leia. He had help rescuing Han. In RotJ he would've been killed by the emperor had Darth Vader not saved him. In every instance, he had help. Given the world Cinderella lived in, she did what was possible for her and my hat off to the people who don't break their world in order to have the character "solve" the story problem. Breaking your world in order to make the character a winner is what leads to poorly written female characters.
exactly, please live thorugh a lifetime of narcissistic abuse and bullying, and probably getting fed less then the rest, stay positive and cute, sing with the animals, get your prince, and then come and say that Cinderella is weak!!!!!! hahahahaha. people are so dumb. Cinderella is queen
I like to think Natasha's flaw of not being able to forgive herself and her desire for redemption is the reason why she decided to sacrifice herself in endgame. It makes sense that she would gladly die to help save half of the universe as she still probably thinks her ledger is red and she choose to wipe off all that blood, using her own.
Beautifully said.
I think that is a huge part of her reason.
Another part was that she loved Hawkeye and wanted him to have the chance to go back to his family, and for him to have the chance of wiping the red off his ledger.
Not to mention, part of her made family is gone. Althought she won't see them come back, she knows they''ll get their lives again. So her stakes become higher and makes us love her more. Because it's mentioned in endgame that her family is practically her spy family and the avengers. That's even more incredible and makes sense for her alongside her final redemption move.
why did i just tear up reading this? 😭😭😭
Perfect wording.
Back when I made (and over the years, further developed) my first DnD character, I had fun giving her the "can't ask for help", "can't show emotions", and "always in 'fight mode'" traits, except making those her flaws that she needed to work past in order to grow (and then actually having her succeed in that)
Great idea actually.
You made Lae'zel from Baldur's Gate 3 lol. Was she gith as well?
Literally, a good example of this Merida, she doesn't care about the consequences of her actions. On the other side we have Mulan, she is strong and brave but also loveable.
Merida was also written into a corner when the female director of that movie was basically bullied out of the movie studio and replaced by a male director. They tried to cover up why by saying there were creative differences but it was more sinister than that.
Did we watch the same movie? The greater part of Brave is Merida trying to rectify the consequences of her actions.
Brave has flaws, but it's all in all an example of good writing. It follows a time-tested pattern for animated movies. Establish what the character wants, and guide him towards what he needs. Merida wanted freedom, but needed mutual comprehension between her and her mother, and that's what she achieves.
Sometimes actions speak louder than words. If the story has to constantly remind you that "this female character is strong" then they instantly reduce your expectations because they're basically a Mary Sue. They just punch their way through any situation making the stakes nonexistent. This is why I love female characters from the X-Men franchise. Because they're just as flawed as they are powerful. Rogue is more than physically capable to take on any villain but her biggest weakness is her primary power. She has to deal with feeling ostracized from being in a physically intimate relationship. She can't punch her way into that. So readers are always interested in how she's gonna overcome that obstacle.
Rogue is a great example because she has to constantly struggle with the fact that her strength is literally someone else's, even her ability to fly (in the earlier stuff). More so when she takes on the personality traits of others as well.
So she has to constantly wonder who she is at basically every moment, because she could just be an amalgamation of the people she siphoned power from.
RANDOM BLACK GAMER - TRANSFORMERS
The fact that stories have to constantly prove it or beat around the bush of it just shows that the writers simply have no real reason for change and a dynamic character, solely just trying to take any empowerment movement and leech off of the reception.
@k o a l OP mentioned the entire franchise, not just the movie trilogy, so they are including comics and TV shows in their assessment.
They even mention "readers" so they might be talking only about the comics.
I don't disagree though... Hell, it's smart to not use x-men the last stand for any advice on character writing. Man, woman, juggernaut, it was full of walking punch lines who had no real depth beyond that, and who only told rather than showed basically anything- including a major character death of all things.
I feel it just shows how Hollywood and film industry view Strong female character as. For example, MCU already has a strong female character with nuances who is well-loved from the beginning. But they seemed to not view Black Widow as one because instead of pushing for her own movie or developing her further, they doubled down on creating a new character who is 'the strong female character' and promoted Captain Marvel as if she was the first of ones.
The writers and creators also love to erase any trace of feminity or feminine touch from current strong female characters. They always have to be beating and fighting everyone else and one upping them (I mean an actual strong and confident person wouldn't feel the need to keep proving and reminding people that they are strong and confident). There is no strength that comes from softness, resilience, feminity. If the audiences haven't been told again and again that the character is 'strong female character', they could easily be another brute male leads from the bygone era.
@@mahogara Yeah, I know right? I mean basic biology states that women are generally weaker than men, and that doesn't mean that women should be portrayed as horribly weak, but straining to the other side of the spectrum to near demigod-like strength and ability is simply just a double standard, but then again, if people think you don't agree with them, you are being dogmatically opposed, when in reality they are the ones dealing in unjust absolutes.
One thing I hate about strong female characters is how some people will say “finally, a strong female character” no matter how badly written their character actually is. When she finished watching Captain Marvel, my mother was immediately talking about how strong she is, because that really is the only thing that Captain Marvel has, Strength. People who think that, to make a real strong female character, all they need is be physically powerful are stupid.
I hate when people forget history of strong female caracters like it's brend new.
From Joan of Arc, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor and most female caracter in Games of thrones.
I'll take that over nothing though
Basically my opinion of Sadie Adler and Abigail Roberts from RDR2. Horrible characters that people seem to like for some reason.
@@moolahfornothing1650 I never heard from anyone, that they liked abigail. And Sadie is very funny. Also she has a lot of internal struggles and feels emotions. I can understand why people like her.
Cap Marvel also has integrity, loyalty, intelligence and a likable playfulness that you don’t usually see in adults. All those positive traits help make strong female leads so how do you mean she only has physical strength?
One thing that I think could have made Captain Marvel just a little bit better is if they used the flaw established in the animated series. Carol is so powerful compared to most others that she starts feeling alone, and thinks that if she's not using her power to help people as often as possible then she's being a terrible superhero. Just a slight change like this would have made her so much more compelling.
sounds like Gojo
Funny enough they actually touched on this in the sequel
15 years ago, female characters generally weren't written as "strong females", they were just strong people who happened to be female. Take Jill Valentine, who was dragged into the Spencer Mansion incident in Resident Evil 1. She was part of an elite team who were sent to investigate what they had no idea was a cover for a secret bio weapon laboratory built to engineer and test various bio organisms for nefarious purposes. Jill from the start was a main character, one of two that you could play. Throughout the story, she literally fights her way through the same horrors that her male peers would fight. Many of her teammates would actually die in this incident, with only her and a few others surviving. She never belittled her peers, she never proclaimed she was stronger or better than them. She was just a strong person who helped and was helped by her male peers. Even Rebecca, who was a medic and considered objectively physically weaker in the story clearly could hold her own, as the prequel to the first RE portrayed her fighting her way through her own game. We had many great female leads in both film and video games. There is no reason to portray them as basically men nowadays.
now she is jacked up strong woman who swears a lot. man I love old Jill when she is strong and graceful... now she is just strong.... RE3 Remake truly fvcked up a lot of things... damn cant forgive them for butchering Nemesis like that
@@yohanesbobbysanjaya3541 I try to ignore that remake. I love RE2 remake though.
Unfortunately the talent to make that kind of character doesn't exist for the most part anymore.
Wanda and Loki are perfect examples, in my opinion. They have strength in mind, emotion, + have an actual personality. They have deep flaws, but they also have many favorable/surprising traits. Also, they had things and people to lose and actually lost it in the movie rather than save it at the very last minute.
I'm biased but I feel the same for Thor.
He started as a self entitled God who would start a fight just because. He had to learn through losing his power that he needed to be humble. He is a strong willed character but then losing so many people really screwed with him. Then after he killed thanos he lost his fighting spirit and faced serious depression and surviors guilt. He developed into a very caring leader( yes I believe he should've led asgard after endgame), and he wouldn't just fight to fight anymore. He learned to forgive Loki because at the end of the day they're brothers. Even when he was fat and depressed when he finally got mjolnir back ,the look on his face was.."I'm still worthy, I'm not a loser, and I can still fight for my friends". Pretty interesting for "I like this drink..ANOTHER"
Wanda's entire personality trait is "I want to br a mother!" Dont know what about that makes her a perfect example.
@@taureansun1501 Did you only watch wandavision and *possibly* Doctor Strange 2??? Cause your statement make it seems like that:/
@@taureansun1501 um, no? you seem to not have watched the show but she literally created a fake town and a fake family, basically reviving her dead husband through her powers and trapped a town with people, brainwashing them
@@oreo_.taylorsversion yes I did wasnt her personality then basically I want a husband and children? I mean it was handled with more tact and grace in the show as compared to the movie but that's basically Wanda's entire life motivation. Her entire drive to be a mom. Which is cool and all but then they demonstrate her going crazy and killing other people just because she cant have what she wants which feeds inti the woman is too emotional or woman can handle power tropes. And only to kill her off in the end and leave it "ambigious" it's just sooo irritating just how left field they have turned the charchter.
My go to line for this type of discussion is:
"Courage is not about never being scared. It's about being scared but doing what you have to do, anyway."
That's a great qoute . Did you make it yourself?
@@abhinavsumesh2549 Slightly altered, but a similar a quote was made by Jon Pertwees 3rd Doctor in Doctor Who
Oh this is from coraline!
Exactly. That’s the actual definition of courage. That’s what some ppl need to understand.
"One cannot be brave who has no fear."
I'm writing a medieval fantasy novel and my favorite and most complex character in the book is a former fairy queen who was exiled from her clan and forced to raise her triplet daughters on her own. She starts off pretty "weak" physically in the beginning of the book, worrying that she can't protect her daughters and can't be enough for them, but how her character progresses throughout the story is one of my favorite things I've ever written.
Sounds good, she has a motivation for being resilient & protective so she's relatable
That's interesting! I am about to write a fantasy book as well, but it's played in the real world, except that the characters are fairies, manós (manó means elf in my native language but that word always makes me think of DnD elves so I tend to avoid that) and water-manós (I'll later invent a cooler name for them but now I use this as a placeholder). The plot is built around a huge war between the small, hidden kingdoms these little people are inhabiting (a manó is small enough to ride a blackbird and fairies are even smaller), and it happens in the parks, forests, caves, and lakes in and around my hometown, in the present days, but these races still have medieval technology combined with what they came up on their own. I'm a guy but I think I have more female characters in mind than males at the moment, like the main character. Her personality is pretty similar to Mulan, her story in nutshell is that she is a manó princess, raised in a castle and sheltered from the world. She was very close to her great uncle who is a well respected warlord who has fought many times to protect the kingdom. So when her homeland is attacked, her great uncle puts on his armour suit once again and leads the army to war. The protagonist wanted to go with him because she hates sitting in the castle with nothing to do when every helping hand is needed, but her parents don't let her. So she gets herself a sword and hides in one of the chests which contain food for the soldiers. By the time her great uncle discoveres that she is exactly where she shouldn't be it's too late to send her back and thus eventually he agrees to train her. She will become a warrior, who saves the kingdom (and many others in the end, when the war escalates). She will have to struggle of course, but it won't really be related to her gender (there are lots of woman soldiers in the army, it's not uncommon), it's simply that she needs time to master her skills and to get used to not being surrounded by servants, not to mention the dangers she faces. And there are the other characters, for example a queen whose husband was killed in battle and she swore revenge, another one who is narcissistic, manipulative and married to a much younger man (it will be an important plotline how the king will break free from her and stand on the protagonist's side), and one who has been raised to be a knight and will be pretty much like a mentor to the main character. Wow, I just realised how much I need to figure out the names for these characters.
Sorry for dumping the entire Bible on you, I guess I just wanted to talk about it to someone.😅
The very first thought I have when “strong woman character” comes to mind: Eowyn from Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings.
She displays a fierce sense of loyalty to her people and her land, at the same time showing a warm and caring heart to those in need of a helping hand. She doesn’t fear death, only that she’ll be “in a cage”, cutting her off from her potential and ability to help her people. She is soft, yet also strong. She’s the definition of a sword maiden. Can’t cook worth a damn, ask Aragorn, but honestly a few flaws save her from being a Mary Sue
And when she kills the Witch King? Bad. Ass. And her line is FIRE.
“No man can kill me” 👹
*takes off helm, despite a broken arm, revealing face*
“I am no man”
*fucking ENDS one of the most powerful incarnations of evil that Middle Earth has ever known*
She doesn’t say it like “cos men are weak and dumb and as a strong independent WOMAN-“ nonono, she’s more clever than that. It’s more of a triumphant statement, like “oh yeah? LOOPHOLE, B*TCH!”
Love it. Love that she got a happily ever after with another badass good guy, Faramir. Love that he’s also built up to be a strong and flawed character, making their pairing more organic and satisfying.
Just a great fucking story.
I absolutely hate that scene in LOTR, and actually consider that to be the first micro-sign of catering to women being an “inferior sex” but “actually not because WOMEN can DO IT TOO!”
But that’s not even why I don’t like that scene, that part is minor. That joke literally only works in English, which to me makes the entire premise of the comeback completely idiotic, because it’s not even respectable to language let alone Tolkien who loves language.
The Witch King says “No man can kill me”, which means the race of Man. As opposed to Dwarf, Elf, Hobbit, etc.
She then converts that word to mean genders, because she is a woman.
But the fact is, she is still in fact have all the characteristics of being part of the race of man. She is not a dwarf or elf or orc.
So the fact she needs to bring that up means that she not only misunderstood the Witch King but finds it an issue worthy of being raised. Aka inferiority complex. Makes me feel concerned for her character she has something she needs to prove.
@@vistalover9607 Who said that "no man can kill me" means the race of Man? Who explicitly said that? No man. No man has said it. It was never explained further in neither books or films what "man" is defined as. It was simply stated as is. YOU INFERRED it. That is your HEAD CANON. Your THEORY if nothing else. The thing with prophecies is, they will always happen. But most often than not, in a way you didn't expect it to, but is clear in hindsight. It is in the nature of prophecies to be slippery, often it is the driving force that sets the characters to the direction that fulfills the prophecy anyway.
Here, let me show you the exact prophecy that the Witch King was referring to, "Do not pursue him, he will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
The Witch King knows of this and grows confident that he will not be slain in a battle against the race of Man, leading to his downfall. Man could mean two things, the gender or the race. Given the Witch King's haughty disposition, he believes that it refers to his race of Man. His hubris blinds him into thinking that naturally, the prophecy refers to the collective race of man, rather than a simple gender.
So what happens in the end? He gets killed by BOTH Eowyn, a female warrior, AND Merry, a hobbit. Eowyn is not a man (gender) and neither was merry (a man but not a race of Man).
So yes, her saying "I am no man," is appropriate because it shows him the irony of his hubris before he is killed.
@@vistalover9607actually, it doesn't only work in English. In Hungarian it was that "nobody's son could kill me", since "nobody's son" is a commonly used expression when we mean no one. And she said "I am nobody's son". I know it doesn't matter, but I like that scene because of this "Loophole b*tch!" moment.
@@vistalover9607 I think the problem is that what really did in Witchy there was the elven sword she took from Merry in that scene. It's sort of epic that she ends the guy with "I am no man" but it is undercut when you've read the books and know about the grave/barrow that Frodo/Merry/Pippin/Aragorn found themselves in where they discovered a cache of enchanted elven weapons. In the movie, Aragorn gives them out like party treats.
another female character i love in marvel is nebula. she went from being the most absolute loyal daughter of thanos, to eventually recognizing her bond with gamora, then finally rebelling against thanos and joining the forces of the avengers.
I totally agree! I love Nebula so much
totally lol i feel like shes underrated tbh
I see your Nebula and raise you Peggy Carter.
@@Trix_Daemonum me too
nebula's one of my favorite mcu charectors
I read a post once that said some thing along the lines of “I wish female characters didn't have to have
their sweetness and kindness and love
beaten out of them and have it called
strength.” and that has really stuck with me ever since I read it. I wish more female protagonists were allowed to be strong and have emotions and be capable of kindness and love all at the same time, for them to be allowed to be smart but loving all at the same time. I am tired of the reused trope of the intelligent yet cold female protagonist. But overall I am tired of the new (now cliche) trope of making femininity something that you should get rid of if you want to be strong.
Another thing that pisses me off when it comes to female characters is making men weak and dumb so that the woman looks even better by comparison. One day my sister said something interesting: "If they hate sooooo much women who are not as strong as men, why do they have to bring men down to build women up? Wouldn't that be saying it is sexism to basically say 'women can only be strong and intelligent if men look dumb and weak', i mean... if i said it out loud they would call me mysogynist".
Never heard this quote before. But it rings so true. Allow me to add a quote as well. "You know, whenever someone draws attention to the 'breaking of gender roles,' it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." Same rings true in movies with "strong female characters." They're always hyped up as if they're revolutionary and new, all the while ignoring the badass females that have been in movies since at least 1986 (Vasquez alien). The "strong female characters" in modern America don't take inspiration from those that came before. They pretend they don't exist to pretend to be innovative.
Basically making women more like traditional male heroes- cold, hardened and edgy
so you say you hate strong female characters with the male mindset?
I wholeheartedly agree.
I've been trying to say this for the last 4 years. But I have always been told to shut up, and that I was nothing but a misogynist straight white male, and my opinion means nothing. Thank you for finally giving a critical voice that the industry can't shut down. We need the pendulum to swing back a little, so that we can make movies great again.
They made Sakura Haruno posses super strength in Naruto, as well as real relatable internal struggle and flaws... and everyone still hated her. As bad as her obsession with Sasuke was, I found it very relatable to me with some of my relationships. It's a negative thing, but it is much more real than a lot of superhero films where they achieve that Disney perfect relationship at the end. I think a lot of women dislike her for it because it's too relatable to some of them. I adore her early innocent views of relationships, and the quote she often uses "All's fair in love and war". It's also cute that she is a pretty girl who trains her body to be a warrior in her story. This character also reminds me of Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones, who I've noticed some people dislike her because of this character's early bratty behavior and innocent views of relationships and dreaming of being a princess. I think these people fail to realize how real and important these stories are to women. These characters definitely remind me of myself in a big way. Alice in Wonderland had a scene with the Cheshire Cat about which direction she should take. This scene was more symbolic about what direction she should take in life after graduating school as a young girl. Trying my best to make a point here.. if anyone is actually reading this I think you understand what I'm getting at
Yup.
That sometimes, women do and think dumb/silly things or act badly through ignorance or innocence (naivety)
And this is fine. It's real.
I agree that it's important to see this in media, especially as these appear to be common faults many women experience.
Just as most men struggle with insecurity, anger and lack of purpose.
You're right that (female) characters are often judged FAR too harshly for those flaws. And often from both sides.
Some think it evidence of misogyny to HAVE women be flawed, or to display "traditional" feminine flaws (despite, as you say, these being a common experience for many women)
Some just appear to not like women and use the flaws to justify hate.
Don't understand it myself. Some of my favourite characters are HORRIBLY flawed (Nynaeve from Wheel of Time is a strong contender)
I have read the comment and I do believe that you are missing a certain point.
With no offense intended, I - personally - believe the "Sakura hate" steams from how her flaws and struggles are actually handled. Up until the "timeskip" Sakura is very talented in theoretical aspects of being a ninja, but NEVER actually does anything to develop further. We never see her actually train (the only instance is the tree-climbing bit in the story and she masters that immediately).
Similarily we don't see her change her approach towards Sasuke all that much nor actual struggle for it; when Sasuke leaves Konoha, Sakura fails to stop him and - in stead of trying again - she dumps that responsibility onto Naruto.
When the fight with Zabuza and Haku came about, every single time Sakura was basically a spectator... when she, Naruto, Shikamaru and Shino went after Sasuke during Suna and Oto invasion, she was again relegated to basically motivation for Naruto to get stronger. All throught "Part I" of the manga, we don't get to see her change in a meaningful way until she decides to train under Tsunade.
That is not to say she doesn't have moments such as giving Naruto advice about tree-climbing or being willing to flunk the first Chuunin Exam for Naruto's sake... but these are usually more about a different character (the advice bit was more to showcase Naruto's growth as a character) or don't amass to much (ultimately her sacrifice in the exam didn't go through and - if others didin't arrive to assist her she would not be able to protect Sasuke, Naruto and Lee during second exam... heck, she didn't even win her elimination fight).
Even after timeskip the first, real challenge she faces doesn't show any change: she is incapable of doing anything against Sasori and must rely on Chiyo to - basically - do all the fighting FOR HER. When Team 7 goes after Sasuke with Sai and Yamato, she again does nothing of actual importance throughout that part of the story.
Struggles are there, but we don't get to see them influence the outcome much; character moments are nice, don't get me wrong, but in the overall story they change nothing, because Sakura - commonly - is still shown as the same person she has been from the start.
Everyone hates Sakura because of the author sidelining her so Naruto and Sasuke can take the spotlight. Literally ALL of the female characters are never getting any new development.
I think most people don't like sakura, not because of the fact that she's a strong, caring or capable woman but because of how the author's handling of her character. She abused Naruto (even when they were older) and manipulated his feelings to ultimately get what she wanted. She was meant to achieve the same narrative focus as the rest of Team 7, but that never happened. And honestly, if she was labelled as a side character from the start, she wouldn't nearly get as much hate. She would most likely have many more fans. But I understand your point and I think it's cool that you feel that way considering it can get tiresome to defend Sakura from haters. Personally, I'm neutral on her. I don't love her but I certainly don't hate her. She's just...ok.
That being said, Kishimoto after a certain point was unable to write any character not named Naruto or Sasuke so
🤷♂
Can't wait to see what Abbie says, but I personally think Nat deserves the hype. She proved herself even before she got her own film. Captain Marvel has some work to do.
can't argue with Bucky ;)
The Winter Solder needs his own movie
@@Sammy50599 Haha. But I'm trying to live a normal life now.🤷🏻♂️
@@AbbieEmmons Hello there can I use Microsoft word for story writing
Sounds like you’re just toxic.
I think a lot of people undermine the quiet strength of Snow White and Cinderella. Their strengths come from making the best of a bad situation, thus taking away the power from their abusers.
Totally true. It takes an insane amount of strength to remain positive and hopeful in uncontrollably bad situations. They also serve the purpose of connecting with people who are actually in "damsel in distress" situations. They help cover ALL bases.
Indeed. There’s also Wendy from Peter Pan, Anastasia from Anastasia, Mrs Brisby from The Secrets of Nimh, Alice from Alice in Wonderland, and arguably the three good fairies from Sleeping Beauty. All of whom have quiet feminine strengths which show them to be competent at what they each do: solving their problems without resorting to brute force while caring for those in need and/or assisting heroes on their journeys, i.e., displaying femininity, and whose respective appearances came before the Disney Renaissance era, when women became increasingly portrayed as bad-assess (although I like the ones from that era all the same). Back in the Golden age, moral lessons, not “strong female characters” were the focus of films. People can say what they like about pre-Renaissance-era films being sexist towards women being made to be “damsels in distress” and doing them a “disservice”, though I think they’ve forgotten what makes women attractive as both characters and people: tender but otherwise (mentally) strong femininity. There’s a huge difference between feminism and femininity: one has people (such as Brie) erroneously assume men are predatory oppressors who love silencing others while concurrently making so many unwitting men (and conservatively minded women) suffer dearly, an ideology I remain disgusted with. The other has women evince classical feminine traits such as nurture and vulnerability, which naturally make them endearing.
I know. Snow white and Cinderella remained good-hearted whilst enduring abuse for years. That is true inner strength. That is a strong female character.
Old Disney fr was goated
@@cameronis8089 I really love Alice in Alice in Wonderland. The story has character development from a middle-class girl to a warrior, from someone who just want to go home to someone who invest her feeling into people in Wonderland and ready ro fight for their freedom. That story is just so good.
For Captain Marvel I'd give her enemies that actually challenge her in ways that don't require strength to defeat, enemies that attack her mind and insecurities. I once said about Rey that she needs a serious temptation from the dark side, and difficult decisions to make. The same is true here. She also needs someone to trust and open up to, and they tried to do that, but use it the way the story needed.
Something I notice as you break down the Captain Marvel movie is that Carol does have a few emotional moments, and they all pertain to her lack of memory. Confusion over seeing herself in a photo taken on Earth, excitement realizing "Lawson" was Kree when she sees her writing, exasperation after hearing the recording from the black box. I think if the writers had leaned more into the effect her amnesia was having on her emotions, and, by extension, her conduct as a character, they could have delivered on some of the theme they were trying to convey with out changing much of the story as it currently is.
Also, just to point out, the planet the Kree are from is called "Hala". "Kree" is just the name of the race.
THANK YOU so much for pointing out that Carol DOES, in fact, show emotion several times throughout the story! I get so sick of hearing "Brie doesn't show any emotion", when she actually does show emotions - they're just not the ones some people expect (or want) to see!
@@flurngTrue but it could be better expressed given it was her character arc
Elle Woods from 'Legally Blonde' is another example of a strong female lead---and she doesn't throw a single punch in the entire movie to prove it. She suffers initial heartbreak, struggles with her own proclivities and the preconceived notions held by others of her---as well as herself---and actively studies and works hard to earn a career for herself in criminal law. She originally does so to impress and win the affections of a man who does not reciprocate her efforts, but later uses what she learned and the discipline she developed to instead better her _own_ life. In the end, she solves a murder case thanks to her hard work AND with some crucial help from her feminine knowledge to prove the innocence of her client.
i was saying this to my friend a couple weeks ago. elle woods is a perfect strong female character that’s actually inspiring but nobody acknowledges it bc she’s “too girly” and isn’t physically seen as strong
I was blown away by Legally Blonde. Ellie grew to be an amazingly strong, happy person.
That’s a great example
And she does all of that while maintaining and creating positive relationships with a romantic partner and with everyone else around her. She builds up the women in her life and, in general, makes everyone around her feel good just by being herself unapologetically.
As I a guy, I actually love watching Legally Blonde because Elle is a genuine character that grows in the path of pursuing her dream. The dream later becomes obvious to her that it has no value. So, she finishes her her commitment to law school and is able to serve her friend by getting her dog back and solves a murder case. It's actually a believable plot as ridiculous as the movie may be.
Natasha's strength was established in her first scene with Bruce Banner. She is confident and completely in control. Then, he yells at her, and she is paralysed with fear. She knew the danger all along, she went into that room knowing what might happen to her. She mastered her fear up until that moment. That's real strength.
True brave people are not those without fear but those who fully understand and appreciate the danger they are in and face it nonetheless.
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 yeah if you knew no fear you would just be ignorant to danger. Whereas someone who knows fear but continue on despite that fear is bravery.
but that was not her first scene, her first scenes was in iron man 2 but i got your point and i highly agree with it
The EPICDEMIC of 'HAVING TO put-down and emasculae male non-females
to raise-up female Characters in an attempt to make strong female Characters'
is rampaging and raging, right now. let alone all those that took thhe ever-sarcastic Advice of RUclipsr 'Terrible Writing Advice'
literally!
One of my favorite female protagonists is Erin Gruwell from Freedom Writers (Played by Hilary Swank) it tells the story of a teacher that was sent to a school in a bad neighborhood, but instead of giving up and moving she stayed and did her best to make the kids interested in school and eventually helped them graduate highschool, sacrificing her marriage in the process.
I'm a man and i absolutely loved Erin and i looked up to her, and the best part is, this wasn't a fictional character, the movie was based on a book based on the life of a real woman who did all that. IMO that's a real strong female, and there are millions of strong females all around us, but these Hollywood writers live in their big mansions in Beverly Hills and don't see these examples and their only idea of struggle is some dumb thing like mansplaining or cat-calling, that's why we get these garbage movies.
Princess Nausicaa from "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind" is a great example of a strong-willed female character who isn't toxic and she also proves that she can protect the Valley from harm at all costs despite her flaws.
Funny thing is that whenever I create a 'strong female character', I always base them off my mother. She's 60. She's somewhat physically strong but incredibly emotionally strong. That to me is a strong female character. Steel with kindness.
Mothers are exactly what strong female characters look like.
You don’t need your mother to beat wholesale ass to know that.
In fact, there’s probably nothing you’d like to see less than your mother beating wholesale ass, because it would likely mean the situation is completely out of control.
That’s very sweet. Your mother seems like an amazing person
Physically strong for a lady but can’t overpower a man
Stop surrendering to feminism
Men and women are different physically
Men are the strongest of the TWO genders
It’s science I thought leftist loved science
It's also probably why Sailor Moon is a perfect example of what more feminine coded examples of strength can look like. Her strength/power is exactly what you're describing, and then you also have some examples of women with masculine coded strength. Diversity. It's an awesome show.
@@Mcdun325 You're so right! Sailor Moon is my favorite anime! 💖🌙🌛
Listening to the "emotions = weakness?" portion made me realize something. Carol is an 80s action movie hero that people would be using as an example of toxic masculinity in media, yet she is praised as an idol for women
because she defies the men that kept telling her what she cant do
@@Zoeila yeah, like toxic men that tell her she needs to slow down to take the turn and not fly off of a cliff. Such a girlboss
But like who is actually praising her though? Very few people among Marvel fans.
Jordan Dwiggins Shortly after the release of her movie, a bunch of people flocked to defend CM from the "ravenous haters." I don't know for certain, but I do have an inkling of a feeling that you _are_ right in very few of them being Marvel fans.
@@jordandwiggins1026 There is a certain set of people who adhere to a very militant subset of feminism (just as there's groups who get militant about any subject.) In this case some people really have trouble with criticism of any female character who is depicted as a modern role model.
I think about this a lot in terms of Doctor Who. When they brought in Jodie Whittaker, I was super excited. First female doctor and all that. The problem I saw was that, while her acting was great, I feel like the writers struggled and forgot that the Doctor, in every other iteration, was flawed, narcissistic and... kind of terrible sometimes. Even Matt Smith, who is one of the more angelic portrayals needed to be balanced by his counterparts in order not to fly off the handle. They never really explored anything like that with Jodie Whittaker and it made me kind of sad.
oh yeah Matt Smith's Doctor was manipulative behind a friendly altruistic mask. He had Clara along only to try to figure out how the hell she was alive as another Clara after dying in The Snowmen. ... which was a bit of a weak explanation in the end of the season....
"You won't do it. You have too many rules."
"Good men don't need rules, now is not the time to ask why I have so many"
(From memory so I might be a bit off but you know what I mean).
@@ptonpc”A Good Man Goes to War” was a terrific episode.
A great example of a *really* well written strong female character is Hermoine from the Harry Potter books. In the books she is so many things; she's incredibly smart, she's hard working, she's a showoff, insecure, a bit whiny. She's book smart but naive. She's way ahead when it comes to understanding social nuances, yet she's mystified by how boys behave. She's not necessarily the most naturally gifted wizard but she works her tail off. She's courageous but cautious. She gets into trouble by trying to do too much but she's always there when she's most needed. She cries from being overwhelmed, from having her feelings hurt, and when her best friends get hurt and she's worried about them. And through it all, there's no doubt that she is the glue that holds the trio together. She's absolutely awesome.
"Show me a person who is prideful, arogant and constantly boasting about their strengths and I'll show you a person who is deeply insecure" ... Thor in his 1st solo movie 😁. He came a long way from that one.
Exactly, the difference between the first Thor and Captain Marvel is that Thor's boastful demeanor, reckless behavior and eagerness to inflict violence are shown as character flaws that need to be overcome in order for him to be ''worthy'' of regaining his powers.
Stephen Strange, and he's still developing
@@SkurtavusGrodolfus I always tell this to people who stan captain marvel. Yeah she's bad now, but she has *potential* , I want to see captain marvel go through a character arc like thor's, where she learns to be humble and works on some of her flaws. I really hope this is what happens, and that she doesn't just stay as a "badass asshole" forever.
@@qwertydavid8070 I'm not even sure she can be salvaged since she's being played by Brie Larson...
@@RobertMcBride-is-cool I think you've missed a part of this issue which is that Larson is a fine actress who had a very weak script to work with.
There's also a "show don't tell" element at play.
We were shown that Black Widow was strong in her first scene, where she endured torture unflinchingly until she broke cover. Then she broke the chair she had been tied to over her captor's head. Natasha was in control the entire time, and she had no need to flaunt it.
In She-Hulk, the only reason we know she's strong is because the studio, the promotionalmaterial, and even the actual dialog of this show explicitly tells us. However, what they show us is an emotionally vulnerable woman who can't take criticism and takes her anger out on her cousin when he's only trying to help.
But we were also allowed to see some vulnerability in The Black Widow. Natasha was afraid of Banner in the house when he slammed the table and she grabbed for the gun. We see this again later in the Helicarrier when Banner is transforming into the Hulk, all the while her legs were trapped under the pipes. Early on, she was afraid of the Hulk.
@@gregorykiernan7849I mean I'm not surprised
@@gregorykiernan7849 Fear isn't vulnerability though....... You can be afraid while vulnerable but that's the reason there are two seperate terms.
You can be afraid and still be in control and act - that's called bravery.
@@DarthObscurity Fear can be used to show vulnerability though. If someone isnt scared about anything ever, they dont feel real. They FEEL invulnerable and god-like. Bravery is overcoming that vulnerability, facing the obstacle despite of how you feel.
@gregorykiernan7849 Absolutely! Yet, when she was terrified, she got calm and started damage control. During the helicarrier scene, she instantly started trying to talk Banner through his fear. Even though she wasn't in control, she knew how to regain that control. In later movies, she expertly handles both Banner and the Hulk (not to say that she didn't have feelings for Banner, but she was definitely the one in control of that relationship).
Carol Danvers, on the other hand, was never afraid, and her one solution to every threat she faced was to bash it to pieces. Thor had the same approach to his problems, but his movies forced him to change and learn to be diplomatic and use tactical planning
"I think many viewers make the mistake of blaming actors for failing to capture their heart, when really that was the screenwriter's job."
THANK you SO much for pointing this out! Another point people miss is that, if a performance seems cold or unengaging, that's the director's call - actors can generally deliver many diferent takes on a given scene, but ultimately, it's the director who decides what emotion they want the scene to portray!
I recently watched The Boys. Man, that was some great writing for every female character! My favorite was Komiko, the young woman who was both vulnerable and savage.
that show is such hot garbage. like jerry springer meets super heroes meets gay porn.
The Boys has some very well written female characters. It’s a lot more female-centric than the original comic series, actually, but it works.
Just write female characters like an actual human being: she has strengths, she has weakness, hopes and fears and ultimately she has a dream and mission. Human beings are complex, therefore women are complex. IDK why these writers and actresses' insist on making women so dull and political in TVs and movies, give them a proper character development and people will love them. People like good characters, not political virtue signaling.
Excellent statement, but this will be censored because of your likes. 😂😂👍🏽👍🏽💪🏽💪🏽😎😎🥃🥃
unfortunately for the people who have more than two neurons to rub together, political virtue signaling gets asses in the seats and gets people talking about it, ergo it's here to stay for at least another decade or two.
@@jojivlogs_4255 No need to be rude.
The way you worded that you made it sound as if all strong women characters are "political" and virtue signaling".
@@kyrtuck a lot of them are
Notice how it's easier to call "Black Widow" Natasha, because she has garnered familiarity and feels like a closer character to most people; in contrast to calling Carol Danvers "Captain Marvel" almost every time as she feels like a stranger we're just getting introduced to.
Well, I don't know how many have carried the Name of Black Widow in Marvel, but Carol isn't even the First Captain Marvel...one of her earliest incarnation ls is actually a black woman and even a man as well
Sounds like its just a matter of timing, and if Captain Marvel was introduced back in Ironman 2, you'd be calling her Carol.
@@kyrtuck no, it's a matter of CHARACTER... Carol inherited her powers, they have been passed all along throughout the years and the technical last Captain Marvel is Rogue from the X men who keeps her powers permanently after accidentally killing her during a fight
@@flewis02 Yeah, and lots of well regarded men characters were born with powers, so why is it only bad when Carol does it?
@@kyrtuck yeah I agree, the underlying mistake Cpt Marvel in the MCU made was lack of character, not her power.
The Amnesia trope is pretty easy to make internal conflicts of. Just give the protagonist some distress and strong feelings (which Captain Marvel lacks) and then you get another layer of personality. I'm no avid reader or professional when it comes to crafting characters and stories, but I've seen a lot of good execution in the trope I thought it was normal.
The protagonist from Arknights, for example, suffers from insomnia and stress after they wake up with no memories, because of the pressure and responsibilities they have to face every day.
Weren't all Kree emotionless though? It does make sense how the military dehumanizes those enlisted. Carol does find her purpose though when she learns the Skrulls were mostly good and just fleeing from subjugation.
The scene where Fury and her talk says a LOT about her personality. Fury and her were lone wolfs, not even fitting in their own organizations as if they were...."aliens".
Thank you for this! I find that what you have just presented applies to all characters both male and female. I think this is the essence of screenwriting for characters to have flaws, internal conflicts and demons and struggle to eventual triumphs over them. Not to have an already cookie cutter mold of a flawless character suddenly introduced, who do not have to struggle and earn their successes.
Worst example in recent MCU: Ironheart. Another condescending quippy token black female teenage genius (because the movie tells us she is) who is arrogant and utterly unlikable as a person, and as a character is a textbook Mary-Sue as she is introduced as a plot device, upstages Tony Stark/Iron Man (who is dead at the time), and the script writers try to shove her down our throat pretending she is flawless and cool and her terrible behaviour is edginess. And just like with Carol Danvers/Cpt. Marvel, we are being _told_ through the mouth of another established character that we the audience should like Ironheart.
This somewhat reminds me of Violet from Violet Evergarden, where the character starts as a stoic, emotionless, ex-soldier. Yet, within the series, we see how she grew to know her own emotions and comes to terms with them. It all starts with a simple phrase, "I Want To Know What I Love You Means"
That is an excellent comparison.
Really man!!!!
She is the example of a good and strong female character. Writers should take inspiration from her character and learn how to write a character which is both strong yet not flawless.
God that anime made my cry,its still amazing
Tbh I felt like the stories of all the side-characters (clients of Violet) were way more compelling than Violet's own arc 🤔 But overall I agree it was bittersweet to see her grow into a decent human being
in this story in a way she needed to be emotionless for the story to work
Carol does have a flaw, the writers just don’t treat it like it’s a flaw. She’s extremely reckless and she does things her own way even if it puts herself and/or other people around her in danger. Instead of acknowledging that these are weaknesses, the film’s script either treats these negative traits as 100% positive or, in the case of the scene where Carol is captured and escapes with little to no difficulty, just gloss over the fact that she put herself in that situation.
And even in the comics she's like that, such as when she didn't want to face her alcoholism and even caused a lot of problems before she got the help she needed, along with other times her recklessness got her in hot water, but she would usual be able to bounce back and learn, even if it usually didn't go so well (see Civil War II).
She could have been treated like vegeta she can be arrogant and have a massive ego because of her new powers. She can be called out for her superiority complex/shity attitude or even have a villain taunt her due to the death and destruction she causes. Carol can take those lessons to heart and learn to be down to earth and be human again
What a boring character then.
Her recklessness isn't a flaw if she's always right.
You know the character is trash when you can compare Vegeta positively against them
I always thought Carol's fear was that of failing whilst ever people held her to a higher standard. Right from when she was a kid, all the way to when she lost her memory, she wanted to be recognised for her struggle and nobody saw that. When she fell, people held on to that yet when she stood back up, there was no thought to it from anyone. It was only at the end when the bad guy was trying to rile her up about her failings that she decided what he, or anyone, said didn't matter to her. She realised she had achieved and that mattered.
Thank you for posting this. Your video essay explains very well the situation at hand. I hope more writers pay attention to the details you point out.
my problem with the way "strong female characters" are portrayed is that they are made by taking a woman and making her more masculine. there's nothing wrong with that in itself, but if the only reason she's considered "strong" is that she wears pants, there's a problem.
A woman can be strong without wielding a sword.
Right?!? I literally can't name any feminine strong female characters where they're usually soft spoken yet strong in their own way which saddens me because I feel like I'll identify with those type of characters rather than the ass kicking violent ones.
Bc pants are now a masculine thing? Indeed if she's strong while fighting she won't do it with a dress.
I have nothing abt what you said but it's weird the way you believe tant bc she's a woman she has to show some "feminine" traits, I mean you're masculine as long as you're a man and feminine as long as you're a woman. Your definition of those 2 genders is based on stereotyps imo. The point of feminism is to show that yes, a woman can wear that too, do that too, so it's NOT a masculine thing anymore if women do it I think
@@daeith1233 pants are not 'now' a masculine thing, they have been for a long time and will be for a long time. In my language, we even have a saying that whoever wears the pants in the house is the man of a relationship. It always makes me chuckle when artists make female characters and let them sit with spread legs, like, okay, now she's got to be more of a man, not more of a woman, to come over as strong.
@@oplars6487 So attitudes defined by society should be how men and women act! Thank you for making us understand that spreading your legs is a sign you're masculine, like women have legs but they would never do that bc their legs can't open up more😔. Masculinity indeed resolve abt how you spread your legs and feminity resolve abt how you don't wear pants, and don't spread you legs.
@@daeith1233 how old are you?
one of my problems with this topic.
some writers just put the female character next to a bad/stupid male character so they look better, or have male characters act stupid (or even out of character) just to push this narrative. But the problem with that, in my opinion, is that we create this image that female characters can only be good if the male counterpart is just bad/stupid.
Or that characters use toxic traits to "reverse the roles". The Problem with this one, when you show a female character act like this you dont "empore" people you just make fans angry at the producers and at the political message that you tried to enforce...
(sorry, english is not my native tounge)
yeah basically. in their eyes, the only way to bring a certain character up is to bring others down.
In birds of prey, you know the harley quinn movie
All men is evil in that movie even the nicest guy to her betrayed her, it really made me feel like its a man hater movie after watching it.
Yes! You perfectly nailed the problem with modern "feminist" movies.
Hermione Granger and Ron Weasley
she was smarter, braver and a better friend in the movies
while he was dumber, more cowardly and a worse friend.
In the books everybody had a moment. In the movies Hermione and Harry got moments and Ron was there for the laughs because he is dumb, a ginger, and poor.
In the books you could feel the friendship between Harry and Ron. Hermione was sometimes left out but the friendship was there.
In the movies. Rons friendship was like Nevilles friendship to Harry and Hermione. Nearly non existent. It always felt like Harry and Hermione belong together. I never had this feeling in the books. It was always when do Ron and Hermione become a couple.
Hermione was too perfect in the movies. And she lost every flaw in the second movie and forward.
@@sensoine i love Harley but that movie was...kinda men hating
You hit the nail on the head with everything! …which is why I find Natashas character infinitely more interesting than Carols. Also Scarlett Johansson is stunningly beautiful 😍
Im currently writing a story about a young girl who was driven insane by past traumas. Shes attached to her brother and is really standoffish. Ive never really thought of her as a strong female character but this video has helped me just kind of think about it. Ive got a lot of working to do.
Hello I'm really interested in your story if you ever publish it somewhere I would love if you could reply with a link. It sounds like a very interesting story that I would enjoy reading!
@fizzleberrypoptwist1413 of course! I'm also working on another book rn, but I can copy and paste what I have so far here if you like. I usually don't really finish things much as I am younger (middle school-ish) and have other things to work on, but I do pride myself in my writing, so I'd be glad to share!
Sure, not sure it will fit here, because comments are limited, but there is media sharing services for writing if that is interesting.@@imnina865
Arcane has so many different flavors of "strong female character". From physical strength (Vi), to inteligence and being calculated (Caitlyn), to being cunning and knowing how to use her looks to claim more power (Mel), to actual brutal war general (Ambessa). Even Jinx, who shows dependace towards her father figure, is fully capable to wreck havoc on her own with her own creations. Arcane is a perfect example of a "don't create strong female characters. Create strong characters who just so happen to be female"
immediately YES its the reason why I love arcane so much theyre all incredibly strong and relatable characters who happen to be women and gay as well for caitlyn and vi!
And critically, the dudes are also cool in their own right and aren't degraded to make the female characters look good. They're flawed and make mistakes, but no more so than the rest of the cast.
Bro I was gonna write a comment about the exact same thing LOL
I was looking for this comment! Vi is EXACTLY the 'strong female character' so many movies try and fail to get at because her sheer strength and brute force come from a place of compassion and kindness. Vi shows emotion and deep care for the people she loves. And her fists first mentality is also her fatal flaw because she doesn't think before she punches. She also has actual flaws in her fighting style like not blocking.
Arcane also showed that my man warwick is a good father
I always use Toph and Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Both of those characters are extremely well humanized and have great conflict. I think Toph's gender wasn't chosen until after the character had already been written and they literally had to start designer her character visually. Not 100% sure on that but she is a great example of a great character who happens to be female.
The last air bender is honestly a master piece.
gender is toxic
Yep, Aang's earth teacher was originally going to be a big buff guy.
@@TheRedHaze3 The boulder (rock) was indeed going to be the original toph until the decision of having a young divergent earth bending master (toph) who embodies none of the physical attributes usually attributed to earthbenders.
I'd like to say that gender plays a huge role in characterization. A better way to express the same feelings but a bit more accurately is don't make gender the FOCUS of a character, you can't have that be their main point. Toph being female played into her character quite a bit, for example, how she rejected her parents, her lifestyle and the "ladylike" person her parents wanted her to be and ran away with team avatar. Toph's femininity was also highlighted when she went on a "girl's day out" with Katara, and her slight crush on Sokka.
Toph is just awesome all around but it would be rude to the people that brought her to life to say her gender didn't play a role in her character.
Encountering this video for the first time year after it was posted and during the ongoing writers strike I find myself wishing that as a baseline industry writers would adopt theses questions as part of their process when they come back (hopefully with a new deal that actually lets them afford things like housing and healthcare).
Thanks for the video, happy to be subscribed to the channel.
While I agree with all of your points, I think you should have allowed the full scene in 21:30 to play out. Natasha showed emotional vulnerability, but was able to use that vulnerability to draw out Loki's goal, and put herself back together right after in order to inform the others. THAT is strength.
There is this anime movie called Wolf Children, the main character is just a mom who have two half-wolf children, she has no super power or anything, but through entirety of the movie her determination and struggle to raise her "unique" children as single parent is what make her a very strong female character for me.
She is not perfect, you can see sometimes she was near her limit, but the thing is she never once give up or complain.
And also because in a lot of ways, many people can relate to her and cheer when she overcomes her hardship..
Holy crap I love that movie! The mother is definitely strong in her own way. I think people don't acknowledge that is because in their minds a strong female character is an independent women that doesn't follow social norms. She had her life planned out ahead of her with college, but she decided to take a different path cause she knew that is what would make her happy. I think that really makes her a strong female character.
This movie made me feel so many emotions.
Wolfwalkers 2020 was also an amazing video.
Thank you for mentioning my first ever anime movie.
Seeing the mum accept the person she loves who isn't human, seeing her still manage to take care of her non human children without knowing much about wolf children due to the father dying in an accident, to having the strength to move out and live in an old house in the middle of almost nowhere just for her children, working on the house, helping the villagers, accepting her son's choice shows how strong she is.
The movie truly made me shed a tear and that rarely happens to me.
kinda like how Stan Lee showed heroes who had everyday struggles like any other non-super powered person. We're all imperfect but these 'strong wahmen' are always perfect. Even perfect with their narcissism.
Brie Larson was asked this question once in an interview. I donno why it isn't on RUclips... But she replied that she's getting a lot of hate because she's a woman and is also the strongest superhero in the franchise.
Like really... Black Widow is a woman and people love her.
Scarlett Witch is a woman and also maybe stronger that Captain Marvel and people love her too.
It isn't her gender or superpower that people hate... It is her attitude and also her bland character in the movie. She really needs to realise that.
Because she is an insecure women who thinks people hate her because of her gender.
Spoilers
I think the debate of Wanda being stronger than captain marvel is pretty much over lmao
@@IndyJacksonTT You are right Imao. This guy didn't watched MoM that's why he's saying "Maybe".
Wanda said hold my Darkhold
@@dashingpurpool2240 she could take hold my darkhold anyday😏
I love this video. Everything that you said about Natasha can be applied to other female characters as well. We follow Diana in WW 1 she’s in awe of her fellow Amazons and wants to learn to fight. But her drive is more duty bound than simply “men are evil and weak” she has compassion for the human world even going head first in possibly (at least to me) the most powerful transition from passerby to hero. Diana sees the horrors around her and instead of just following orders she dives in to help. Jessica Jones (yes I know many people don’t like her) but there’s moment in the show that do show her humanity. Her internal struggle and trauma while under killgraves control, her love and protective nature towards Patsy her foster sister. Though her abrasive nature can be a turn off, it’s not coming from out of nowhere. A quick flashback, in Designing Women. We are introduced to the character Susan Sugarbaker. She is an ex beauty queen , she’s beautiful and has an obscure view of the world and society. In the first episode she is dating a co workers ex husband and is unapologetic about it. But then in episode two she overhears two younger and more recent beauty queens mock her and her win. We see her become vulnerable and sympathetic and there’s so many more moments of her stepping up to help when her sister needs her the most. Though she is superficial she does have a heart.
Thanks for the great analysis. I expected a shallow and less fulfilling answer to the question, but I was pleasantly surprised by your deep dive into this subject.
"For every strength you give a character, give them two weaknesses"
-My middle school writing teacher, the only person in that entire school district I respected.
That is a great writing advice!
Damn, what’re they doing in a middle school writing class instead of working on movies?!
@@alexsiemers7898 He was the only teacher there that did his job.
At the very least, every character should have at least 1 weakness. And the stronger they are the more crippling that weakness should be.
Even Superman has to watch out for cryptonite. The deathstar has the one weakspot, Sauron dies with the ring, and Voldemort is a regular mortal if you destroy his horcruxes.
@@MsLilly200 And Voldemort's major character weakness is love and his inability to understand it: not just romantic love (eros) but also storge (familial love), philia (love of friends), and agape (love and empathy for all mankind). And they become his downfall.
Mulan (from the animated movie, not the dreadful live action reboot) is probably my favourite female character. She loved her family so much that she took her fathers place even though she was completely out of her depth. Then she put in the effort and determination to improve so much that she became a hero & a strong female character, those are lessons that are admirable. It is because she actually faced adversity unlike Captain Marvel that she was able to grow as a warrior and a person.
that movie was trash
@@RED-my9hl Nice bait, chief.
The animated Mulan vs live-action Mulan is the perfect example for this topic. One is a character with flaws but with a strong emotional desire and live for her family, the other is a perfect Mary Sue from birth with little to no emotion.
That is my favorite movie from Disney's prime.
Thank you for this video. It helps me not only with writing, but also with my own internal conflict. I have the same one as Natasja and I think the whole time I'm a bad person and that I'm weak because I'm now so emotionel. But that isn't true. I survived my whole childhood, my different think patrons and everyone that wanted to hurt me. Thank you ❤
This is the reason there are no clear hero's and villians in my stories. Everyone haves a story and that is the reason they do things
This video is spot-on, thank you! (Character lessons are always great)
This video made me emotional. As a woman, I am so tired of modern stories victim blaming femail protagonists, essentially telling me that if I can't save myself with no help from anyone else, then I am weak, and just like all the other girls. Well, I'll be honest. I need help from others. I'm a little broken and fragile here and there. My past experiences have definitely made me stronger in some ways, but also weak in other ways, and I'm not ashamed to lean on the emotional and physical support of those who love me and offer their help. I always loved the old fairy tales, because they gave me simple hope. That no matter how dark it gets, a happy ending is possible, so keep doing the next right thing, and don't give up. I am also tired of only one type of woman being considered acceptable, and it being so prickly, unattainable, and physically strong. There are other kinds of strength, and they matter too, even if they are quiet, emotional, and feminine.
I couldn't agree more!! ALL women deserve to be represented and given the chance to shine 👏🏻✨ I'm so glad this video inspired you!
@HaHoyH except she was never talking about differences in physical strength. But go on and try proving your "masculinity". Just don't cry about being single. Man really said since you're physically weaker, you deserve no equal respect like shut yo ass, dog. That kinda ego's even larger than a planet called Ego. This is exactly why people suck.
Sounds like you’re just toxic.
Yes and this is not just a female / woman thing. Men too work together and have strengths and weaknesses. This is HUMAN thing. NO hero saves the world alone..teamwork and the help of from others is so paramount. Captain America was not invulnerable, but his compassion, conviction, and sincere caring about others above himself drew people to see him as leader. THIS is why people followed him without question. This applies to a woman to who exhibits these traits.
@HaHoyH they never said they deserved more respect than anyone else
I just love Black Widow. She didn't needed superpowers to be an Avenger. She used his fighting skills, her inteligence, her psycological tricks, her words, her backstory, her knowledgment about history and other sciences, her own life as a "laboral experience" as an agent. She is complex, she isn't totally good or totally bad, she's in the middle in all the shades of grey. She has flaws, she has emotions, she isn't afraid of asking for help, she is afraid of showing fear but she has it and sometimes it shows, even from small details like her look, or her microactions. On the other hand, Captain Marvel, is just... what we saw...
“You have your swords, I have my tricks. We play with the toys the gods give us.”
It took me years to realize that the scene in Avengers, where she interrogates Loki, she was using her own unhealed trauma to trick Loki into revealing his plans. She's such a well written character
It's easy to be brave when you have super powers, Black Widow is truly brave without them.
I really like the part she outsmart Loki in Avenger 2012 showing how good she is at playing mind trick. That's her unique strength that no other Avenger have.
I'm 7 months late to the conversation, but...
I'd say that people like Black Widow (and many others) BECAUSE they were written to BE liked.
OTOH, we have "strong female characters" like Captain Marvel... who are NOT the kind of person that most people would willingly invite into their homes if she were real.
You MIGHT respect her... but you wouldn't want to be around her... which, ironically, also appears to be true of Brie Larson.
Wow, I was not expecting to see Operation Underground Railroad as your sponsor. Very impressed, not to mention it was quite timely as I'm just now watching this after Sound of Freedom came out. More people need to know about the evil, corruption and covering-up of this atrocity.
I love that you sharing your tips.
Now I’m less afraid of showing my stories & ideas thank you. A huge inspiration 🐦⬛
This is why i love Avatar the last Air Bender so much. They did a great job at portraying strong female characters in their own way. Katara is compasionate but she's not always been a goody two shoes and she sometimes shows anger. Toph (one of the stronger Bender) is somehow insensitive, but it doesn't make her always rude to others, They make her that it's okay to need help. Cheerful Ty Lee is also shown that she's sometimes not okay. Azula, is a confident, person and we can see she's actually has insecurity. Don't forget Mai and Suki that shows many affection to their love one
You talking a lot of cap, I like toph tho
Greats characters in the Avatar cartoon!
And they stand besides great male characters like Aang who starts out tallented but pacifistic who learns to stand up when it is needed, Zuko who has suffered deep emotional trauma and falls low before rising, Sokka who is insecure but covers it up with bravado and even a bit of sexist behavior, but grows beyond that, and Iroh as a magnificent mentor. Great male characters and female characters who don't need to diminish anybody else to look better. Instead, they all serve to highlight how great the others are. Toph and Azula are some of my favorite characters in all of animated fiction. They kick ass but it's because they have earned it, not because they have plot armor derived from their gender. They are equally fallible as the above mentioned men, have just as many flaws. And because of that when they overcome their flaws it makes them all the more impressive, and when they finally succumb it is all the more sad.
All of the main characters are great characters in their own ways, they each change and develop in different ways. Even Azula you felt sorry for at the end, yes you know what she did, but you see her slowly comming unhinged and going deeper into her own madness, where she keeps up her appearance of being perfect, being flawless, being the strongest.
And you have other characters. Like souka who at first is this clownish guy, who felt over shadowed by the magic users, would do like another commenter here said hide his insecurity in bravado, sexist behavior, and just jokes all the time, but over the course of his adventure the others come to rely upon him for his intelligence, his determination. Hell when he got to kioshi Island and then got his ass beat, and then admitted he was wrong and that he needed help from the kioshi warriors, that was a great scene
@@MyAramil apparently there was originally meant to be a 4th season with an azula redemption arc
I think it comes down to one thing. They don’t need to be a strong FEMALE character. Gender obsession ruins a movie. It needs to be structured so that, whilst only a female protagonist works, the script is never driving in the point that ‘look, here’s a woman, she’s a strong woman’.
They need to be STRONG female characters. A character that is strong, that’s compelling and female.
Underrated
Sadly thats mostly ignored by recent movie producers. No wonder their characters feel bland
To summarise, there is "STRONG FEMALE character", and there is "strong, female character". Without the comma, you have a trope. And that trope got old a good while ago.
Why mention their gender at all? Why not just make a good character?
@@kabukiman2153 "Why mention their gender at all?" To be fair, a person's sex tends to call attention to itself. This is hard to escape, humans being humans.
There is also the "first woman to (insert feat)", "first minority person to...", and so on. Like an elephant in the living room, ignoring it would feel more forced than calling attention to it.
There is a growing sense that various types of humans are not fully interchangeable.
My fiance runs every morning before work. He's is construction, he's up everyday at 4 am doing back breaking work all day. So he can take care of me and our baby girl. He lifts weights 3-4 days a week after work. He treats me great, he makes me smile every day and he always makes me feel pretty. To me this is what a real strong masculine man is. I'm 5 1., tiny I can't do what he does physically. But I'm a strong woman I spent over 17 hours delivering our first baby, a 7 pound healthy baby girl. As strong as my fiance is this is something he can't do. Women don't have to be like men to be strong.
My favourite 'strong' female character is Laura Roslin from Battlestar Galactica, played by the excellent Mary McDonnell. She's hugely compelling, a formidable opponent and commands attention easily, whilst simultaneously combatting her own fears, admitting her flaws and lack of experience and making the tough decisions needed at the time.
She would lose in a physical fight with just about any other character in the series, but still beleivably commands authority and respect from the seasoned warriors and ambitious climbers in the fleet.
All this, with the foreknowledge that her time is limited by her cancer diagnosis.
She is a truly compelling, strong character and she remains fundamentally female throughout.
The Captain Marvel (or Warbird) in the Avengers comics that I used to read struggled with a drinking problem and the fact that her powers were uncontrollably powerful and could put her team at risk. It was a very compelling storyline and gave her character a lot of depth.
reaaalllly doubt they'll do that here.
Thank you. Carol had horrible PTSD and self medicated with more booze than Tony Stark drinks in a week. She had all sorts of interesting things to examine and we got... nothing.
Wow, that's way more interesting, wish we could get that storyline...
@Damien Wayne first civil war made me hate Stark even when I started watching the MCU I couldn't stand him, the same with Civil War 2 with Captain Marvel. I regret reading both books to this day.
@Damien Wayne thanks
I always thought Katniss Everdeen was a very well written female character who is strong, courageous, a total bad a, but also deeply emotionally driven. She may be rough on the outside from her upbringing, but she appreciates beauty, and her ability to empathize and her strong will to protect the ones she loves and her feminine traits are the prime example of a strong woman. I think she's so well rounded, yet flawed. She's realistic! And a fantastic role model! I have always seen her as a fantastically written female character.
Agree 100%
Great books, mid movies.
Well in the books I would agree but the movies nahhh
@Booper Dooper yes the arena was INCREDIBLE
Edit: actually the whole movie was incredible
ok but her actor kinda sucked
The biggest challenge in my life is finding the courage to show people how I really feel. I really struggle with showing people emotion and I don’t want to trauma dump but it’s really difficult for me when I try to bring myself up to showing my feelings and thoughts. When I watch characters like Natasha, I can’t help but feel their repressed emotions and it brings it out of me. All of the insecurity, anger and sadness just surfaces and it makes me feel like I can self insert myself into a character which gives me a reason to care. I will never understand why writers cast and write characters and people that are physically dominant but have no internal conflict, what am I supposed to connect with here?
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS
So many of my female friends (I am also female) are all in LOVE with Captain Marvel because she's the "epitome of woman power" but I'm just over here like "she's bland! And overpowered! SO unrealistic."
As a screenwriter, we are at the bottom of the feed chain, meaning, the least paid for, recognized, and empowered, yet whenever a movie goes bad, they blame it on the screenplay. Whenever the movie is a hit, they blame it on the director, actor, etc. While it's true that it's next to impossible to make a good movie from a bad script, it's easy to make a bad movie from a good script because once the production company buys the script, they can make a junk VW bus from a new mercedes because the screenwriter no longer has any say or value. There are just too many hands in a written script to bring it onto the big screen. That's why I'm writing books now, because I will at least have intelectual property.
That's a great point! Sometimes studio inteference wrecks a good script. I've heard about Sam Raimi and Spider Man 3, how Sony told him to put Venom in the movie even though he didn't want to. In fact, Sony had tried to get him to write BOTH Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus in the same movie. Thankfully, he was able to convince them it would expensive to do that. But for some reason, Sony still felt the need to put Venom in the final movie and they're being blamed for the final production of the film.
Jeez! And to think I considered turning one of my book projects into a movie script. If this is how things go, screw that
@@SerafRhayn It's not always the case if the screenwriter isn't new and can leverage a deal that he or she has first rights to write changes, but that's usually not the case for newbies.
I don't blame the screenwriters for the waste of film that was Rose Tiko. That trainwreck was entirely the fault of KKKennedy and Ruin Johnson. I spent the entire movie waiting for Rose to be revealed as a First Order spy/saboteur who made up the hyperspace tracker and was actually using a quantum communicator like the one that Leia was using to lead 'Rey' back to the fleet. Vice-Admiral Holdo knew that there was a saboteur aboard and suspected Poe, because he was in First Order custody recently and got away.
@@leonielson7138 Speaking of Poe, he was character assassinated in The Last Jedi.
An example of a strong female character that I feel is underappreciated is Evey from The Mummy. She is feminine from the beginning of the movie to the end and it never feels forced or tacky. She is clearly the smartest person in the room but not only does she never call attention to it but neither does anyone else (except the Egyptologist who blatantly questions her intelligence). She has thoughts and feelings beyond "I'm a woman it's so hard to be a woman wahhh" and she has flaws that humanize her and make her relatable. Knocking down all the bookcases of the library? Who wouldn't feel awful if that happened to them?
Yes, she does have to be rescued at the climax of the film but she in turn rescues the heroes several times over the course of the movie. She negotiates O'Connell's release just before he can hang, she pulls him out of the way of incoming gunfire on the barge (after she rescues herself from the hooked Medjai by jabbing him in the eye with a candle), she sacrifices herself to go with Imhotep to save the others (yes, Imhotep betrays her but the principle still applies), distracts Imhotep during his sandstorm attack, and ultimately removes his immortality so O'Connell can finish him.
And then she becomes a more physical character in the sequel so she even gets to have some fight scenes.
Evey Carnaghan (later O'Connell) is intelligent, brave, resourceful, and maintains her femininity through and through. That is a shining example of a well-written strong female character.
I'm so happy that there are people still remmember her and the Mummy
@@KhoiV Who could forget "...I...am a LI...BRARIAN! And I.... am going to kiss you!"
*proceeds to fall asleep*
I love that movie so much!
Another perfect strong female character is Captain Catheryn Janeway of Star Trek: Voyager. She is literally the most powerful person on the ship (she is in charge of everything and everybody) but she isn't toxic in the least. She's brilliant, intelligent, a great leader, yet she isn't a jerk or overly aggressive. She makes mistakes but is very compassionate and maintains her femininity throughout the show. We really need some more Janeways in TV and movies right now.
What about Elena Fisher from Uncharted? Yes she played the damsel in distress a bit in the first game, but she was an amazing and reliable character all the way through the Uncharted series.
Excellent example.
When you realise throughout captain marvel the flerken shows more emotions that danvers
I’m going to quote this incorrectly, but “perfection would leave no room for development!” was the response from a female character in Wilde’s The Importance of Being Earnest when another character called her perfect.
We need SO many more women like you speaking up against what Hollywood is doing.
Like Emily Blunt did recently. She was very blunt about it (no pun intended 😅) 👏🏼👏🏼
@@TDKiller415 I think every writer in Hollywood interested in making a strong female action character needs sequestered and strapped into a chair where they are shown the movie Aliens (1986) just about fifty times. Then they would see what a successful strong female action character actually looks like. For that matter, they would see what good script writing looks like.
As this is a sequel to Alien (1979), there's quite a bit of back story-so when the movie opens, we see Ripley as a deeply traumatized wreck of a woman. When she is convinced/coerced to join a mission with some marines to make contact with missing colonists, she is terrified that she will have to confront the alien again. And she's terrified throughout the whole movie and with good cause---at any moment she could get her face hugged be impregnated with an alien, or she is just as likely have her face eaten off her skull by one. But despite her fear, she doesn't let that paralyze her. When confronted with a green, indecisive Marine lieutenant, Ripley takes action to save the marines she is there with. She proves early on that she's a team player when operating a mech-style forklift. She has the capacity to care about other people like Newt and Hicks as the events of the movie wear on. And at the end of the movie, she is out of ammo, out of guns and winds up in a mech-forklift fist fight with the queen alien where the stakes are life and death, and you have no sense that the ending is predetermined. The story telling is just that tense all the way through. In the theater, the whole place erupted when Sigourney Weaver screamed "Get away from her, you B****!"
Here is to hoping the days of the strong Mary-Sue action hero are rapidly coming to an end
I agree. As a boy, I love seeing powerful yet emotional and deep characters as men and women in movies, not just bland strong boring emotionless ones
I bet the whole “women are less important than men” stereotype thing came from one Native American lady who couldn’t pick up a heavy log :/
@@andrewlustfield6079 The Wonder Women movie surprised me. She actually works along side men not just against them.
I always like to look to Avatar: The Last Airbender for excellent examples of how to write strong female characters.
great show, with great characters and cool powers.
incidentally, I also look at Legends of Kora for examples of how NOT to write strong female characters lol
@@double-atime6523 korra ain't the worst tbh
@@wernerbottoni4971 not the worst... but definately really bad.
BIG MECHA SPIRIT GO BRRRR!!!!
Also cheating is fine as long as you are a lesbian... wait... I don't even remember because it was so bad and unimportant :D
TloK is a fun little fanfiction. Like "The cursed child".
There are only a handful of things that add to the lore and make it better, but SO MANY that detract from it, once you think about it a bit more.
@@LetsPlayCrazy word lol
This helped me immensely with my writing thank you!
I know im not as good as i want to yet, but you game me thing to work towards! Thank you
It would have been amazing to start with carol being cocky and emotionless. Or rather, refusing to show emotions. Being that person who can't show weakness. But when alone she expresses the emotions, except there's guilt to being emotional. Maybe we have a moment with her and fury about her stating this. "I can't show emotions. I have to be strong because I don't have another choice." and then we get Fury giving the spark of change, saying hiding weakness doesn't make us strong. Overcoming them does.
Not only is black widow a "never give up even though I know I'm out gunned" sort of heroine character but Scarlett just pulls it off like no other
TOTALLY agreed. Scarlett was the perfect choice for Natasha.
@@WickedPrince3D Hollywood, Marvel, CW, they all have masssssive Problems with Good Writing right now, especially Diversity. Theyre so incompetent and sludgehammer-in-your-face that people call it Wokeness and not Representation. No one feels represented by Planks of Wood. We literally live in a creatively-bankcrupt Age, tbh.
@@slevinchannel7589 I agree with you whole-heartedly. Any reasonably informed opinion that doesn't agree with the current political agenda is simply WRONG. And those who hold differing opinions should be re-educated - IE - brainwashed - until they are true believers. This is exactly why the Founding Fathers detested the idea of political parties from the get-go.
But scarlet looks like a man.
Nat > CM
The Funny thing is, there are version of Carol that are actually likable and charming as hell.
The MCU didn't have to do her like that, they just fumbled so hard.
So sad. I wanted to see the real Carol Danvers on screen.
I would've liked to have seen that... Instead they made her a miserable, emotionless feminist 🤦♂️
Eh, Carol Danvers is usually disliked but that's usually because she's an authoritarian, not because she's boring
The problem was that the makers weren't trying to make a good movie. They were trying to push what the Critical Drinker calls "The Message". Well news flash nobody is going to receive "The Message" unless you make the movie good and make people want to be like the heroes.
@@j_v_3_the_relic well carol in the comics is still a feminist, she’s just not miserable or emotionless
A very insightful and well thought-out analysis. Disney was so intent on promoting their Boss Babe agenda that they failed Storytelling 101, resulting in a cast of one-dimensional characters.
Although they never address it directly in the movies, in the comics Black Widow does have superpowers. She was modified by the Red Room to the point she has Spider-Man-level strength, speed, agility, endurance and durability. (And by the way, they also greatly decreased her rate of ageing. She was active in World War II and is now around 100 years old.) Some people have commented negatively on Black Widow, in the movies, even though she is a small woman - Scarlett Johannson is 5'3" - being able to do things like physically overcome a dozen men twice her size. Or fall from a great height onto pavement with no serious damage "even though she's a normal woman without superpowers." No. If she can physically overcome a dozen men twice her size, and fall from a great height onto pavement with no serious damage, OBVIOUSLY she has superpowers.
Arcane to me was a breath of fresh air from this point of view: every character was on point and unique in their own way; when I first saw Vi, Caitlyn, Mel or Jinx the thought of them being “strong female characters” never crossed my mind once. I just enjoyed the story and all their different interactions and that’s how it should be. Not to mention that male characters were given the same level of depth and introspection as well. Props to RIOT and Fortiche for all the effort they clearly put in this project. Easily one of the best series in recent years.
To be fair tho arcane is damn near a masterpiece
@@irohied1266 Personally I think even it's weakest characters could carry a lesser show.
This is why I have a problem when people say "strong female character". More often than not that means "strong female" and forgets the "character" portion. Just write a strong character and the gender will either be completely irrelevant or bring it out even more. Shouldn't we look past the person we see but what the person is?
Facts
@@Maletizer Whenever I hear "Strong, female character" I hear "men with boobs". Because they're basically just that. They do what men do, while simultanously calling men that do what they do toxic.
I'm a female. I loved Disney movies - yes, there were damsels in distress (eg Sleeping Beauty), but regardless I can still appreciate them even now as an adult. We went from brilliant characters like Ripley and great protagonists like Xena and Buffy to Captain Marvel and She-Hulks. The problem is simply bad writing and political agendas. Flip the character's gender and skin colour and call it a day; it's not about quality anymore in the entertainment industry and quite frankly I have no idea WHO they are catering to anymore.
A loud minority on twitter
the bad side of feminists a.k.a toxic people who just call themselves feminists
@@Bardock1122 Bingo! And it's not a sustainable audience. Hence why some of these movies actually do better than people think they will in the theater, and then immediately fall apart afterwards. Just make the quick buck and move on. None of these characters will have a lasting effect.
Themselves
China
Do more Science of Story!! I LOVE these videos and your breakdown of movie plots! This is actually what first got me watching your channel and I would love to see more of it!😁
I loved your commentary and reflections. I learnt a lot. If I may I think the problem with strength and it's multifaceted nature is that the pervasiveness of violence is so profound. The problem with violence is that, being emotional often means you'll be less effective. I think there is an over-emphasis on the nature of being emotionless being toxic. I think superheroes have to become something inhumane to be effective
In my opinion, one of if not the best "strong female character " ever written is Carol from The Walking Dead. Her story arch is amazing. From a battered emotionally damaged weakling, to an incredibly ruthless yet caring character. Totally bad ass.
I AGREE!! I LOVED her character and sometimes just watched to see what she would do next in a situation.
She was quite amazing and I didn't finish the show but I watched enough seasons for her character to remain great in my memory.
Yessss loved her she had amazing character growth
She didn't give woke vibes. Not a fan of her, but I can surely respect people who actually are her fans.
@@themagneficent9400 Exactly, I don’t really particularly like her BUT I don’t constantly hate her like every other woke characters because her story is believable and good
I agree, her character arc is one of my favourites
The Carol of the comics is a complicated character. A former alcoholic, for instance. She has a deep historical background. But they took barely any of it. It's a shame.
No, no, they erased all that when they made her Captain Marvel, the “bestest, most popular, strongest Marvel character”.
When she was Ms. Marvel, she was actually a good and complicated character.
@@nvfury13 After _House of M,_ Carol's motivation to be Captain Marvel was to be popular in 616. She even hired a PR team. 🤦♂
@@thatHARVguy They must have all ended up in therapy after she started a concentration camp in the Negative Zone and formed a child army to act as secret police to lock people up in illegal prisons because they were *going to* commit crimes according to a compulsive liar precog.
Carol in the comics is ALSO hated by Marvel fans. Her solo runs were...well, in 5 years she was rebooted 4 times. That should give you an idea of the type of character she is. She is toxic, routinely hating on men even in the comics. Her comics are boring, and she is not that historic of a character. You can remove her from the continuity and nothing would change at all. They have also shoehorned her into OTHER hero's stories just to try and help her popularity. Instead it brought lower sales to the other hero titles every time she has popped up in their stories. Her personality is like that of the idiot jock that hates teamwork while also having no other good traits. Even her Ms.Marvel days weren't that great, she was less front and center but whenever her mask was off even in these days she was problematic and had multiple reboots. Carol has never been a liked character, but the costume designs were generally liked and thus used for cosplays. Which kept her around longer than she deserved.
The GOOD CM? Monica Rambeau.
This is a black woman and was the first human to have the title of CM. She is warm, caring, capable of kicking butt but doesn't use it as the default way of solving every problem (this IS carol's only method of solving problems). Oh yeah, she lead the Avengers for 15 years. Balancing all of those personalities and weaving their social mannerisms to mold them into a team. Carol causes conflict, she never solves it without fighting.
This is really good insight. The question I'm left with though, is how to avoid a Naruto? Someone who overcame their internal conflict, achieved their goals, and are content. How to make that type of person still "attached" "motivated" or "flawed"? Basically, how do you make a completed character not come across as perfect?
I’ve always had trouble putting a finger on exactly why I didn’t like Captain Marvel and you explained it perfectly, amazing video!