SRAM Force eTap AXS vs. Shimano Ultegra Di2 | Electronic Groupsets Head-to-Head
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- SRAM and Shimano's second-tier electronic disc groupsets go head-to-head, comparing weight, cost and performance. SRAM Force eTap AXS and Shimano Ultegra Di2 are both hugely capable electronic groupsets that offer much of the experience of their respective makers’ Red and Dura-Ace flagships, at considerably more affordable prices.
With a little help from the good people at Orbea, who laid on near-identical Orca test bikes, Matthew Allen set out to find out whether SRAM Force eTAP AXS or Shimano Ultegra Di2 is better.
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It's the groupset battle of the century, can there be only one winner? Which would you choose? Let us know in the comments!!!
BikeRadar SRAM for me, wireless is a big bonus.
If you go by retail price, Force axs should be put head to head with Dura ace di2.
When i was building my bike i was thinking to get a sram etap or a di2. In the end i did the same what you said and bought a r9100 and i could not been happier with that 😁😁😁
@@fernandoroman6494 Dura Ace is £3k retail but Force is £2.3k.
Nice Review, but there is one thing that was missing: How well is the SRAM front derailleur working in terms of its "yaw" property? Afaik, there is no auto trim like on Di2 front derailleurs and I have always been very unimpressed by mechanical SRAM yaw derailleurs.
Also, an important point about pricing imo is that you can buy an Ultegra Di2 Upgrade Kit for around a 1000€ which you can then combine with your favorite crank/PM, rotors and cassette. Also, the prices for Ultegra chains and cassettes seem to be lower than AXS and you could even lower that further because of the compatibility to 105. Cost of wearing parts should be part of the comparison.
As you were talking about AXS gearing makes everything smaller, it threw a switch in my memory when I used to work for the Japan Group back in the early 80s. Back then I was a Cat-1 and Shimano was on fire trying anything and everything for road and would often give me prototypes to test. Then came the shocker of all time, I was once given a very secret & very complete 10mm chain pitch Grupo for me to test. It was the craziest thing you ever saw. Everything was miniature as if it belonged in a large Doll House. The performance was awesome and it was super Lt/Wt. If I can remember correctly it had 9 cogs at the rear! Keep in mind at that time 7 cogs was out of this world tech. You should do some investigative work with Shimano to ask if that prototype is still around, maybe in their secret museum?? GOOD LUCK, and it did exist.
Kudos for a well researched piece. I'm happy with my Ultegra di2, I still get that rush when the front mech is dropping the chain from the big plateau to the smaller one. It quite simply works flawlessly.
A+ presentation in every respect and I am a critical sob.
Glad to hear you liked the video and thanks for watching!
@@bikeradar - It was perfect, from the low key precision presenter, to the full body of data, to the clear and full production, could not be better. No grinning idiot pretty boy, no promo, even a useful surprise ending. I really wonder how the hell it passed the jackasses who invariably turn everything into pop crap because they have kids and salesmen whispering in their ear.
@@johnsmith1474 excellent comment. I am getting back into riding and the tech out there is amazing. Videos like this help educate riders, especially reborn riders, with the cool products out the. I agree too many egos and flashy reviewers trying the look at me tactic
I got the SRAM Force groupset and updated to the Red crankset just for the finish. I love the sequential shifting
It’s amazing! I feel bad for all my mechanical shifting bikes. They have been used few and far between since I purchased my SuperSix eTap
With Shimano Di2 you could even mimic Sram shifting by programming the lever buttons: The buttons on the right shifter shift into a higher gear and the buttons on the left shifter shift into a lower gear. Synchroshift shifts the front derailleur. This is a really good solution if you're wearing thick gloves.
This^ Did just this for winter riding here in the U.S. north east wet winters, super customizable and easy
With di2 you also get buttons on top of the shifter hoods to program to whatever you want. Mine are programmed to go through the different screens on my garmin, cause nothing is more frustrating than trying to swipe left after you’ve dripped sweat all over your computer screen
@@dshvvcjbdsykgj then just buy sram lmao
@@Ikkei-4444 if those sram hydro shifters weren’t so awful in the hand I would.....also DOT fluid is not ideal vs mineral oil
I have just moved from Campag Chorus 11 speed to SRAM Force eTap 12 speed. The changing is even smoother with Etap but what is being missed from these reviews is the wider gearing options and smaller increments offered by the SRAM. That is my no 1 benefit and is highly recommended. It makes 50-34 and 32-11 seem old fashioned!
My condolences
Never had a Di2, but with the experience I had with my SRAM Force AXS on my new ORBEA (my first electronic groupset) only Shimano can be the winner. FD setup is a nightmare and it's matter of nanometers between success and failure. You can read about chain drops everywhere. SRAMs regular answer: check the setup. Well, there must be a lot of incompetence in the bike shops if it's only a setup thing and not a design issue or fail. The noise of the FORCE cassette is also something to mention (I did a swap with a RED cassette to get rid of the noise). The newest thing I read about: ghost shifting of the RD. Since I own the FORCE with the AXS Powermeter it will not be cheap to do a swap with anything from Shimano. I really wait for the wireless Dura-Ace. Meanwhile I have to live with the Force AXS. BTW: I know that there are people without any issues not paid by SRAM, but there are also a lot of people with issues. So it's a QA thing.
Has it resolved itself? I'm going for a test ride on a tarmac with di2 tomorrow..I also have a quote for a build of a Factor 02 that will be built with SRAM AXS but I have some concerns with chain drops. Help! Lol
Thank you very much for this excellent comparison between these two groupsets. I have both of these electronic groupsets in use in my rental fleet in Girona/Spain and I completely agree with all the points mentioned in this video. Simply put, these groups are fantastic!
Here are some observations that I hope will be helpful for those choosing between these two groups. Please note that I have two full seasons of experience with Ultegra R8070 Di2 and only two months' experience with the SRAM Force AXS. So, I am much more aware of the very few downsides of the Shimano group. I will know more about the weaknesses of SRAM Force eTap AXS by the end of 2020.
Here is what I would like to add about SRAM:
1. Wireless system: A very positive surprise was just how flawless the SRAM AXS wireless connectivity works - so far no fuss whatsoever, even when setting up and using 12 bikes in close proximity.
2. One crank with many options: The flexibility of the SRAM Force crank is a big plus. On my 3T Exploro bikes, I can change the same crank from a 1x to a 2x set up. The compatibility with the Eagle groupset adds much flexibility! And, the same crank also accepts the Quark power meter.
3. One rear derailleur for all gears: This is a big plus, as I had to purchase many additional medium cage Ultegra derailleurs to give our clients wider gear choices (11-34). So for me, this flexibility makes up the extra price of the SRAM components.
4. Batteries: while the downsides of the SRAM are well described in the comments, one plus of the SRAM batteries ist that I don't need to charge the bikes in the garage with many long extension cables. Instead, I can bring the batteries to one central charging station. Also, I can easily carry and exchange spare batteries on the go.
5. The SRAM accessories, such as the bleeding kit and the brake spacers for transportation are much better designed than their somewhat flimsy Shimano counterparts.
6. An open question remains if the serviceability and longevity of the SRAM Force components will live up to the very high standard set by Shimano Ultegra. I have been running Ultegra equipped rental bikes for more than 15 years and remain extremely satisfied!
Three complaints I do have about Shimano Ultegra Di2 8070:
1. One downside of Shimano cables: We regularly experience that someone pinches and cuts the cable when inserting the seat tube into the frame. This is annoying, expensive and time-consuming.
2. The one button on the junction box (EW-RS910) does not have a well-defined actuation point-this component is clearly far below the quality of the shifting actuators. Worse, the multiple functions of this one button are often confused by cyclists: The micro-adjust-mode can be initiated unintentionally, which then can lead to badly adjusted gears. Explaining the functions of this one button to a first time user is far too complicated.
3. The wireless unit (EW-WU111) is always a hassle to connect to the phone for service updates. It takes too long to connect.
These complaints aside, the Shimano Ultegra Di2 8070 is the best groupset I have ever used and I personally narrowly prefer it over SRAM Force. The great news is that we are very, very close to perfection with both of these groupsets!
i've heard of torn/broken wires being fairly common with rental fleets. I imagine they get moved and abused a lot in their lifetime.
Filip Soltys We have only problems with the seat tube insertion. But of course this depends on how exposed the cables are on the bike. We attach the one cable going from the bars to the frame firmly to the brake hose, then it is unlikely to get snagged and pulled by something. The old style junction boxes under the stem caused much more problems with the cables. It was easy to accidentally pull one of those cables.
I agree about the feel of the button on the Shimano junction box, and it is true for both the bar end version and the stem mounted vrrsion. That is one thing I wish they would improve. It is almost never something that matters. Other than that I have no complaint. Shimano stuff simply works. I'm not going to switch to Sram.
Aliveness Cycling: Road Cycling Adventures
I have 4 di2 systems running in this moment(cx,mtb,road,2x/1x...)so i can confirm confusion with junction box button.
Especially in gloves.
Ant/ble could be much better.
Regarding the cables-i realy dont know how can be disconect accidentaly.
If they are build and integrated nicely they are basicaly same as etap in that regards.
Overall,di2 is best shifting system for bikes in this moment
SRAM For me! I retrofitted both my Venge and C-59 with this group and was so thrilled! Shimano is still in the 20th Century. My Force ETAP AXS with rim brakes is dreamy and for me is the hands down winner, especially with my blips under the bars! NO CONTEST.
Ps. I AM IN LOVE WITH THE 12 speed, especially since I upgraded from old Dura Ace 10 speed.
Great review, perhaps one additional element I would add to the mix is the costs of spare parts and replacements. Particularly the costs of new chain and cassette, which everyone will have to swap every year or so (depending on your riding habits) , and which could build up to a significan cost difference between the two over just a few years of riding one set vs annother. I'd say in that respect perhaps Ultegra offers the best value for money, more so in the long run.
Good point Juan. This is good information people should take into account. I take meticulous care of my chain and rarely ride in the rain so I get about 20,000km on my chains before needing replacement.
Just a note, if someone was upgrading to AXS they would also need to check their wheels can fit an XDR driver otherwise that'll be another fairly hefty investment.
Depends on what wheels you have. It could be just a case of changing the cassette body.
@@garethhelliwell9736 If you've cheap wheels you've no chance!
As long as you do not have Shimano wheels, most of the major brands offer freehub body replacements. In the US, the prices range from $100 to $180. I am sure as time passes, 3rd parties will release 12 speed cassettes for the Shimano Freehubs just like they did for the MTB range. Though obviously you will not get a 10 speed cog .
@@leedorney don't know anyone with cheap wheels and buying a AXS groupset...
@@jsclimber91 you'd be surprised. I've seen quite a lot of people buying bikes with Ultegra Di2 and Aksium wheels or even worse.
How is Sram a cleaner look minus the wires? With shimano you have one tiny 4-5cm wire ejecting from the chainstay to the rear mech that you barely notice whereas sram you have that bulky eye sore of a battery that you can't help but notice every single time, the same goes for the front mech. If done properly on shimano you don't even notice the wires on the bars as they can be conjoined with the brake hose.
But the deal breaker has be that big lego block of a lever on Sram, Campy EPS disc is the same to be fair, Shimano looks so sleek and fits beautifully in the hands! Its a marvel how Shimano have managed to fit electronics with a hydraulic resovoir and make it so sleek, even more than their mechanical rim brake variation unlike the other two!
I’m buying Ultegra Di2, my story...
I’ve got a Dura Ace 7900 rim brake bike, but I have blazing hot summers, rainy winters, and long, steep descents on sketchy roads. I can now get a disc bike at the same weight, so I’m moving to discs for safety. There are days when I ride climbs on my 22 lb. disc bike over my 16 lb. rim bike, due to weather. One rainy day on rims, I almost rolled into a speeding truck. And on a 110 degree day, I worry about delaminating my carbon rims. Screw that!
I’ve ordered an Orbea OMX frame. And I’m going with Ultegra Di2. Why? Price, weight, better brakes (you forgot to mention mineral oil vs. DOT fluid), one long-life battery, better finish, nicer hoods, and no 10-tooth ring. (Bigger gears are more efficient.) I don’t really notice the difference between my current 10-speed Dura Ace setup and the 11 gears of my 105 bike, so I have no heartburn about not getting 12 speeds.
The OMX frame has a Di2 port and integrated stem, so the Ultegra setup will look nearly as clean as a wireless system. Yeah, I’ll have the wire in the back, but I won’t have that bulky battery.
Frankly, I can’t imagine missing any feature with Ultegra over Force.
My only regret is timing. I expect the Dura Ace 9270 system to be a real step up. Shimano is an important Japanese brand and I expect them to make waves for the 2020 Olympics. Once the Dura Ace 9720 is available, I might just have a low-mileage Ultegra 8070 group set for sale.
I'm setting up a Trek Emonda and live in the San Francisco Bay Area. We rarely ride in the rain and I don't find the feel of disks to be that good. And they're so powerful that you can inadvertently lock the brakes if you're feathering them and hit a pothole. I went over the bars of my CX bike and this is quite a real danger for a performance rider. We seen Grand Tour riders locking brakes and crashing which was pretty rare with rim brakes. If the best riders are making these mistakes you have to take the danger seriously.
But... mountain bikes all use discs - and they go over surfaces rougher than potholes continuously. Next...
Never discussed was responsiveness of the two systems. I spent a lot of time riding both, and Di2 is the clear winner, which trumps all other criteria such as cost, weight, appearance, connectivity, etc. Di2 is instantaneous and Sram is sluggish by comparison. Performance is primary and other factors - even in an accumulative mode - are secondary.
Thanks for that info. Len. I went for Di2 and now glad I did. Bits come next week. Cannot wait to try it out.
Not really. I went from Di2 to sram red axs. Much more precise, accurate and the appearance is far more than the current dura ace. Perhaps you had a faulty unit
Why you mad? 🤣🤣
Great and balanced review. I already use Red E-tap with hydraulic disc brakes from previously using Ultegra Di2. I prefer the E-tap for the inter-changeable batteries, the simplicity and innovation of wireless and the intuitive shifting. But so much better if your Garmin can read the E-tap signals and status so you can monitor the batteries. When the shifter batteries die, it get really awkward getting home. But you can get off and shift by buttons on the derailleurs themselves.
Haven’t used Force AXS yet, but I have used Red eTap from last generation and the front shifting was always something you had to be careful with, and the batteries were a pain in the ass as they discharge at a separate rate, they can also only be charged one at a time. I did however much prefer the simplicity of the shift “pattern”. So much so that my DI2 is now set to mimic it with “Up” on the right and “down” on the left, big lever for RD and forward button for FD.
I currently ride Dura Ace 9170, and although building it was notably a bigger pain in the ass, once initial setup is done it’s flawless, I plug the bike in to a portable cell phone power bank once every few months over night, and it’s not failed me yet.
An interesting note, I have once had a dead battery at the beginning of a 100 mile ride, as a result of transporting the bike with the shifter button accidentally pressed. I was able to tape the cell phone power bank to my bars and plug it into my bar end junction box and simultaneously ride while the system charges.
Good point about power bank, I ride with a power bank for the phone already, so this pretty much nullifies the argument that forgetting to charge di2 is a big deal.
MrBJPitt yes, but you’d have to also have the DI2 charger with you, which is proprietary. I’d say I simply got lucky. 😅
@@RyonBeachner ah, well yeah that's a catch
“Visual weigh to the front end”. Great summation. Applicable to many hydraulic shifters. No issue with that, just liking your articulate summation. 😁
Ultegra Di2. I have R8050 having come from SRAM mechanical. The hidden buttons, synchro shifting and configuration options make it a winner for me. I do my own builds and wiring it all up was an enjoyable part of the process.
Thanks for the review. I got a new bike with Ultegra Di2. Essentially, it is my first new bike in years and there is so much "new" on it. Disk brakes, areo bars, tubeless tires, road bike suspension, new pedals, new fit. The shifting pattern of the Ultegra is just one less thing that is new to me. All my bikes have Shimano shifters, Dura Ace, Ultegra, and 105.
Hi, I've Ultegra 6870 installed on a Cervelo R5 and on my TT bike I recently installed the Ultegra 6770. So I know very well the feeling of shifting and it's really fast in every condition. I was surprised about wireless groupset. I read a lot about it, installation, setup, etc. but when I tried the Etap Red, I was surprised because there is a gap from shifting and changing of the cogs. Really. Ultegra/Dura-ace are quicker. The explanation is because It is wireless, so without a cable take "time". Than the battery has a 1000 km lifetime before charging. For me it's a peaty. In the comparing test Sram looks like too much "exclusive", that's cool, but if you need to replace something during the lifetime needs more extra. With Ultegra you can replace a lot and you don't need specific parts. Chain, cassette, cogs or chain rings are available from 105 if you want to spend less or with third manufacturers. Also the difference with Top groupset to the lower. Shimano design an own identity for each groupset. Sram don't consider this aspect relevant. So I consider overall Shimano, the best. Ciao Davide
personally i ride red etap, older one. had an oppurtunity to ride ultegra di2 r8000 and i feel like its shifts more smoothly, but i'm a sucker for clean look and wireless is just the way to go.
not only clean look. but u dont have to think aboit shifting, its so smooth hehehe
Sitting on the fence after this review? Go with the Shimano. It works better and it's safer.
The Shimano shifts faster than the Sram-- noticeably faster. You might be surprised how much this matters to even weekend warriors.
The Shimano is quieter and feels much more precise. If you want to hear a clunk, go for the Sram. If you want to hear stuff around you, go for the Shimano. The Shimano is so quiet that when you are shifting, you don't always hear that the bike has changed gears. But, you can sure feel it when the shift happens.
I like that SRAM is wireless, but typically you only build a bike once. And, I have only had to change 1 Shimano electrical component in over 10 yers of Riding-- a $30.00 junction box in the bottom bracket. I had a lot of miles on that bike, had it out in the rain a lot, and rode it hard. So, I cleaned up the bottom bracket while we were in there.
Shimano does a great job tolerating cross-chaining. Not that you should be doing that, but some of us have bad habits sometimes, and Shimano has factored that in. Sram? Not so much. If you are anywhere close to the wrong combination front/rear, you will know it because the Sram will grind like Hell.
Safety-- I have ridden more than 10,000 miles on Di2. During that time, I dropped the chain on the front ring twice. On the Sram, I rode it for 20 miles and I dropped the chain on the front ring twice. That's right-- Shimano-- one dropped chain every 5,000 miles. Sram-- one dropped chain every 10 miles.
And, this was after I had the brand new Sram equipped bike serviced by 2 different Sram dealers, and had the Sram dealer service manger work with the shop trying to get my bike right. Ultimately, I had the choice of incredibly loud grinding in the top three gears-- while riding in the bottom ring up front. Or, I could eliminate the noise and have the chain drop off the front ring every 10 miles.
It took me 50 miles to decide to sell the Sram equipped bike out of concern for my safety. And, I took a huge financial hit in doing so. I think the first shop I went to summed it up best.... If you have ever ridden Di2, you are never going to be happy with any Sram electronic shifting. If you have never ridden a bike with electronic shifting, then it might be OK.
Ride safe :)
I once tried SRAM Force eTap AXS after trying out Shimano Ultegra Di2 R8070 and wow, I was disappointed in the delay between shift input and output, worse for the front derailleur!
I went with sram and am so happy with it's simplicity and functionality. My batteries last about 2 months @ 75-100 miles a week between charges.
Really helpful, made me realise my mechanical Ultegra is still fantastic, I just need to readjust my front derailleur rather than dropping £2K on a new groupset 😂
Fantastic comparison & video in general, thanks!
Seems like just last year I changed out the down tube friction shifters for click shifters! - and now THIS!
I have an 11 speed Sram Red eTap. Love it.
ditto
I went with Ultegra manual this year primarily because of price and also because electronic isn't a necessity for me. Great review, tho.
One significant point you don't mention: With SRAM, you can't use your previous 11 speed cassettes and your previous wheels will have to be modified for XD-R, if that is even possible. Ultegra is backwards compatible saving a lot of expense if you have existing components.
Which is a good thing as the Sram cassette body (tend) to be much lighter.
Just about EVERY 11 speed hub can fit an XD-R. That was figured out years ago on MTBs.
Good point Ilan. But I am glad to hear that that many 11-speed hubs can fit an XD-R. Luckily for me, I am in the market for a new rear wheel so this is not an issue for me.
And existing components is why if you buy a bike with a Shimano groupset it will be cheaper than one with SRAM.
I'm sure Shimano drop the price a lot more than SRAM for bike manufacturers just so they get repeat custom from the owners of this bikes.
You can also sync your groupset to your bike computer which will then tell you when either battery (cell batteries in the shifters or derailleur batteries) are running low, and prompts you to change/ charge them. I run the older generation SRAM Red E-tap, and the ability to swap out batteries has saved my skin in numerous occasions.
I have Ultegra DI 2, my first venture into electronic shifting. It works great but the connectivity issues INFURIATE me. I am an IOS and cannot adjust my bike via the computer and I REFUSE to spend any more money on the bluetooth dongle. Part of the reason is the horrific reviews people give the e tube app. Shimano REALLy needs to get their shit together. It really is surprising given the high quality of their parts.
The E tube app only gets bad reviews when it comes to upgrading the software over wireless due to dropped signals. For setting buttons and stuff it is fine.
I have no problems with etube app or dongle, I bought second hand EW WU 101. Got it connected and changing the gear set up very often(trials) connected to Element bolt, I like it very convenient
Shimano for hoods / shifters alone. Set up is no issue, Shimano is fit and forget, 1 battery as opposed to 4, might take 10 minutes to route wires but hardly an issue.
Ok but if you are going to build on an older frame where can the battery go ?
@@davidfinn9828 In the seatpost where it usually goes? Admittedly much older frames might not have Di2 cable ports but I'd imagine that's a pretty niche market nowadays.
@@davidfinn9828 Isnt there a bottle cage mount for external battery mounting?
Prefer the meaty feel of etap brifter, but that is subjective
d b Meaty. Mmmmmmm.
_@BikeRadar_ -- You asked which drivetrain we prefer. If I had to choose between _only_ the two presented in the video, I would choose *SRAM* and upgrade to a Red crank with a bigger chainring. But in real life, I would not choose an electronic drivetrain because it would offer so little for the weight it would add. My all-time favorite drivetrain is my *mechanical SRAM Red* that's been converted to a custom 1x for smooth road use. For the details keep reading...
I was seriously thinking about moving to a SRAM Red eTap four years ago but I decided to test a 1x mechanical first. Why? Because it had been 2 years since I had shifted down to the small chainring on my 2x setup and, if I could live with just one chainring, I could shed some weight by removing the small chainring and front derailleur system. I started with a SRAM Force 1x to see how well it worked. However, since I would only be riding on smooth roads, I used a standard rear derailleur (the Force 1x rear derailleur has a clutch to dampen chain slap on gravel roads -- _and_ it adds unwanted resistance to the drivetrain).
After a couple of years, I was convinced that 1x was the best fit for me. So I built my custom SRAM Red 1x two years ago. I'm using a single Red Aero TT shifter with a Red WiFLi rear derailleur, 11-32t cassette and an oval 52t Rotor QX1 Aero 1x chainring. The non-drive side of the Red crank is outfitted with a carbon Stages crank arm w/ power meter. This setup is ideal for my long-distance time-trial-style rides on open smooth roads with low rolling hills. Besides excellent shifting, the drivetrain is very light and reasonably aerodynamic. And the road-designed Red rear derailleur has very low resistance. The only thing I would change is this: I would like a bigger chainring (54 or 56t) but my 52t is the largest oval 1x chainring that Rotor makes (I prefer Rotor because they're adjustable).
The only reason for electronic shifting in my case would be to have multiple shift points (for example, at the aerobar ends, handlebar flats and brake levers). But I don't ride in city traffic and I'm on the aerobars 99% of the time -- therefore little need for multiple shift points. Some day, an electronic drivetrain may make sense again -- if some new, more-compelling feature emerges. As it stands now, I can think of much better places to spend that kind of money (like a better frame and/or wheels).
Rim brakes stopped working the moment I tried disc brakes for the first time.
LOL!
I just went back to a rim break setup and for a second I thought the brakes weren't working! Lol
I ride a rim brake bike with Ultegra Di2 and a disc brake one with Force. As said in the video, both are great, but if I have to choose one, no doubt it will be the SRAM. The only two buttons system is way simpler, no cables whatsoever and the shape of the chain looks way better. The disc brake bike has integrated discs hoses, so the look is complete clean. While it weights more than the rim brake, it looks astonishing.
I had Sram Force Etap Axs on new bike from May 6th till August 17th 2020. In those three months I had to send a noisy cassette back to Sram. They returned it with stealth rings between three sprockets. This didn't help. I waited 4.5 weeks for a new cassette from them. In that time I just rode on the noisy cassette. To be fair it must have "bedded" in as the noise went away.. The new cassette came but I didn't put it on as old one was quiet enough.. On the 17th of August the inner chairing came of the chainset as I changed down from the big ring at speed. This resulted in me almost crashing.. I have returned bike to LBS as they said this just isn't good enough.. New bike will have Shimano like all my previous bikes.. I loved Sram Force Etap Axs. The simplicity, the shifting was sublime, the 48x35 28x10 ratio was fantastic. But I now couldn't go back. Even the chainset seems plastic an flimsy.. 👍
Built up a bunch of bikes with both and my hands down choice is Sram, build up is super simple, no delicate little wires to get damaged, or rattle in the frame. Batteries are small and light and not expensive so it's easy to have a spare, you can get 5 of them for the cost of a Di2 battery. You can shift it with gloves on, the brakes have better modulation. No extra cost just to get bluetooth and the app is super simple to use to change settings or update firmware. The $300 cost savings for Di2 goes away when you need a replacement battery and if you want bluetooth, not to mention if your not building it yourself your shop will most likely charge you more to build up a di2 vs etap bike just due to the labor time.
I must really give kudos for the unbiased review. Even though I had a slight impression you are a bit of Shimano afficionado :)
I took it as slightly towards Sram 🦍
@@zyghom Well, I am sram biased so maybe that is why :)
He is by far Shimano bashing.
Pfft.
Way SRAM over compensated.
Somehow the finish on Shimano stuff is better, less plastic-y, but it's a draw?
Not sure how complexity is a draw either.
1 system has wires that need run one time, and 1 battery to worry about, yet a system with 4 individual batteries is just as simple?
Newbie cyclists here, I went from an old Shimano 105 5700 groupset to an Ultegra Di2 8070 and shifting is like night and day - amazing. No experience with SRAM grouppos yet.
I just up graded my Ultegra R8000 to Di2 R8050 , love it..
Matthew is the best. Honest opinions and i would also Go with mechanical, but go for sram red 22
honest opinion, hehehehe: paid promotion with bias that screams!. Etap costs x1.5 of Ultegra, they praise gearing from Etap and forget compatibility of Ultegra with GRX and XT cassettes
really this was honest for you, its paid propaganda by sram
@@Tomasz559 This is absolutely not a paid for video. All of our sponsored content is clearly marked as such when we upload to RUclips, and in the first line of the video description. If you don't see it then no money has changed hands. No exceptions. We take our editorial integrity seriously and hope that helps, from your friends at BikeRadar!
@@janeztomazic5546 This is absolutely not a paid for video. All of our sponsored content is clearly marked as such when we upload to RUclips, and in the first line of the video description. If you don't see it then no money has changed hands. No exceptions. We take our editorial integrity seriously and hope that helps, from your friends at BikeRadar!
@@bikeradar than you should do a better job reviewing, what bikers care about betwen Shimano and Sram is:
1. price
2. weight
and no, 1 and 2 is not close to call it a wash.
When I was watching this I got a feeling you decided Sram will be the winner and than tryed to change the scale with every non important thing. Is 12 cassete really better than 11, come on....
Thanks, BikeRadar, for this comparison. And that's a funny thought, a bike freak explaining any of this to a random stranger on the street. "Pardon me, may I tell you about SRAM Force eTap AXS and Shimano Ultegra Di2?"
I also thought that the random stranger on the street isnt going to be looking at bikes with Udi2 or eTap AXS? They will be much more likely to want to know about Sora/Tiagra components that aren't nearly as expensive.
Great comparison video, thanks! I think you forget to mention about the wide availability of Shimano and it’s compatibility with mechanical parts, whereas in case of SRAM AXS it’s a completely new groupset and doesn’t even compatible with any other from SRAM family!
... its* compatibility (it's = it is) ... isn't* even compatible ...
Comprehensive review. I was totally educated. Thank you.
Great review, and I appreciate all the comments regarding XDr wheel fitment. One aspect I wish you would have covered however is group set noise. From what I've researched SRAM has had quite a lot of complaints on how noisy it is. So much so, apparently there's been cassette replacements and design revisions by the company. It's an attractive group set, but a steep price tag for potential cassette issues, noise, and wheel fitment. Cheers bruh
on a side note, I'm glad to see Orbea bikes being featured on yours and other European RUclips cycling channels. You barely hear about them from the American channels.
Still the best bike reviewer on the planet!
Love how they used a twig to prop up the bikes for the shoot.Must try this on my next bike-landscape photo.
I noticed that also! Clever :)
And how do they both compare to Campag Chorus 12?
I mean, I'm still gonna stick with mechanical either way, but it'd just be nice to see the comparison.
not to mention FSA K-Force and Rotor and .....
@@neuspur The group is called FSA WE. And it seem like it's no longer available or never really took up production at all.
Ultegra mech or Di2 has and will always be my groupset of choice.
for a few years, we've been hearing that big cogs exhibit lower drag, so much so that we should run out and spend $300 on a pair of inelegant oversize jockey wheels. Now, all of us sudden, that's all forgotten and we should shrink to a 10t cog!? With three teeth engaged transmitting all the torque? WTF?!
I think even the 11T is useless. Life begins at 12 or 13T.
*I don't just think, I can feel that the 11T is useless.
dy zolytan I reckon the majority of people can’t spin out (talking ~140+ cadence) 50x11 even with the help of a mountain.
@@mf0u3021 you're probably right, but I was tying to make the point that small cogs are not energy efficient, meaning you lose more power when transmitting the same torque with the same gear ratio to the wheel.
$185 for a SRAM Force 12 speed cassette ($350 for the SRAM Red 12 speed cassette)!
No doubt SRAM has its advantages and competition is good for the consumers, but the costs for SRAM AXS wearable items are ridiculous right now so not only are the upfront costs more than Shimano but maintenance will also be higher. I am wondering if SRAM is allowing 3rd parties to make cassettes for the XDR hub.
Red Cassette machined 1 pc from tool steel, does not wear freehub body, worth it
Can you do this same test with the mechanical versions of their groupsets? In 2x and 1x please.
Funny thing I have mechanical 11spd Dura Ace on my current bike and I am now “upgrading” my whole bike to one with Ultegra 12spd di2. I can get the equivalent new model bike with SRAM AXS for $1500 cheaper than the Shimano bike but due to the significant and many disappointments I have had with SRAM Red in the past there is no way I would ever trust SRAM again even at $1500 cheaper. From what I have found SRAM technology always promises a lot but the real world usage often falls short of expectations.
Is it easy for the SRAM to drop the front shift?
The Ultegra disc brakes are the best brakes I've ever used - they're better than the brakes on my mountain bike, and I've had Shimano SLX and Magura MT8s. I stopped myself dead on a -20% grade without locking up the front or the rear, or going OTB. They're like magic.
I bought 11spd Red eTap, and what sold me onto Sram; the single lever on both levers, waay better in winter, fitting is EASIER ! #yatakesyachoice
I have sram force axs 1x with eagle components on my gravel bike. My dealer made me a good deal with taking the original sram rival set so biting the bullet was easier. Grx wasn't available and I wanted 1x with at least a 48 in the back
I'm very happy, no problems with brake noise until now and they brake more than good enough for me. Haven't encountered anything that I don't like until now
I'm sure Shimano di2 owners are just as happy like me. You can't really go wrong with these 2 options, marginal gains maybe depending on your situation best is to test them yourself before spending such an amount of money.
2 missed features about force axs, rear mech has an orbit fluid damper to limit/ prevent chain slapping on the chainstay and all axs chainsets have a smaller 13 tooth jump between chainrings making the shift between rings that bit smoother. Got Force axs on my bike and really enjoy it. Got no regrets not getting ultrega di2
The SRAM groupset sounds great but clearly costs more. I have Ultegra Di2 on both my bikes, one rim, one disc. I've never regretted it. It works perfectly (although I recently had to replace a front derailleur, which was the older 6800 version). I use a laptop to interface, but pretty much never need to use it. Once its set up I dont change things. The one thing I could imagine is if I went from my usual 11-28 to, say, an 11-34 (maybe for a trip to the mountains). You have to go in and tell the system what cassette you are using, but that is easy to do with a Windiws laptop --assuming you have one available of course One thing nice about Shimano is you can also run KMC or YBN chains, and replacement cassettes can often be bought cheap on sale. Wheel compatibility is another plus, for now. SRAM use their own proprietary chain. If I was buying a new bike I honestly dont know which I would want (either way I dont build it myself). Even so I like the idea of a wireless system. On the other hand, very small cogs and chain rings as in SRAM require the chain to flex more and would be inherently less efficient. Riders stronger than I am might want to consider that.
Any issues with SRAM popping the chain off when moving to the big ring? I've heard it's an issue. Cheers
Very interested in SRAM force Etap. Think that's gonna be the component on my next bike.
I got SRAM Red Etap 11s shifter coin battery to run out at the top of mountain last year. Fortunately I also use Quarq Dzero so I could use its coin battery to swap shifter's. God..
You don't need to care about battery life for 1.5-2 years, but good to connect shifters to Garmin to periodically check the battery life..
I always like your videos Matthew. Subtle to the punch points and personal choices. Shimano weight listing for instance. But it all comes down to need, wants or desires. No one chooses the first and makes all kinds of reasons for the second and third.
Great video - kudos!
SRAM wins the electronic group set competition, but Shimano wins the mechanical battle. One bike has Shimano Ultegra (Trek Madone) and the other (Trek Domane) has SRAM force - love them both!
the best reviewer I've come across. If only there was an option that ticked all the boxes! i.e. something thank looked like ultegra di2 but was as easy and connective as sram!
I believe Shimano short cage only goes up to 11/30, not 11/32, however some do say you can fiddle with the b-screw to get an 11/32 to work, but it is better to get a long cage.
Also, with the bluetooth adapter, Shimano will connect to your wahoo to show you which gear you are in and you can check the battery percentage.
Great review
@Matthew Loveridge hah. "thirty tooth". Yes, agreed, I run a 55/38 chainring on my TT bike, which works fine, other than a "thunk" you get now and then. It is mostly because I have a few TTs which have a climb through in and the 38 is needed.
Selling point for Sram to me would be the Eagle compatibility, if only because I ride my gravel bike much more than my road bike.
In reality, even if I had the money, I'd still get 105 instead and for the money saved either build a whole bike with it or get a nice set of wheels. Or maybe I'd get a second 105 set in silver to update my 90s steel frame. And still have money left over.
The last 105 is flawless. Still waiting to get real world review of GRX. Though like you said I like the sram eagle comparability.
Very good comparison, thanks. What type of power meters compatible with a Sram Force? Any suggestions?
thanks for the video very very helpful, and easy to listen to, thanks again. I already had ultegra maniacal group set on my tcr and just bought from Merlin cycles the Di2 upgrade, so sifters wiring & derailleurs for 999, so thats me sorted after bike shop has installed it as wanted to get away from cables... having said that after watching your review id go sram next time, as its much easier to work with by sounds of it, and the fact you can do adjustments on the phone is a massive bonus!! not to mention the other stuff its a winner for me.!
with etap, you should consider about changing a hub body for 12 speed cassete.
I'm completely in the shimano camp for several reasons. You only have to mess with the wires once, at installation. One battery and I don't have to mess with it. Reliability, unpaired shifter much. Durability, we all know who wins there, sram has excellent customer service for a reason. Lever bodies and brake feel. Brake noise. Centerlock. No sram bb standard, been down that road. Flightdeck compatibility. Bartop cross levers. I can go on and on. I won't even talk about shift quality.
My next bike will likely have SRAM Red AXS. I've been a Campy lover for decades and considered its electronic option but SRAM's innovation sold me. They totally rewrote the approach to gearing and going wireless was brilliant. Perhaps, in the future, they'll do something similar with the hydraulic brakes by eliminating the hoses and instead incorporate wireless-operated master cylinders on each caliper.
Snap, I have done just the same moving from Campy all my cycling history to AXS. I love the new gear ratio options even more than the shifting!
I have a rim brake dura ace 9100 setup which I just upgraded (??) to 9070 Di2. I really wanted to go with SRAM Red AXS but I would have had to throw away/sell pretty much all the really good components I have (Cranks, Chainrings, Casettes & Chains) and I just could not justify it. I really wanted the simplicity that SRAM wireless offered but AXS is also heavier than Dura Ace Di2 so in the end I picked up a good second hand 9070 set for 650 GBP (FD, RD, wires, shifters the lot) and it works really well. Fitting it is definitely more painful, but once its done, its done. I would have gone for a new SRAM Wifli system if I could get one but they discontinued them. Going forward there is a definite AXS or Shimano choice as the components are no longer cross compatible ... bummer. If your buying a new bike the choice is just down to money and preference, but upgrading is a lot trickier.
I've always preferred the look of SRAM, especially on dark frame bikes... Subjective indeed. I'd take the SRAM every day, hence why I did. The 2x eTap is the best set on the market for the $$ IMO. I use it on a full carbon gravel setup, love it.
Great review - I was an Ultegra one trick pony for my road bike, but you've made me consider SRAM (which I have on my mtb and love)
Would go with Sram. Simplier shifting and wireless.
The shifting is a non point because both can be programmed to the same result.
And enjoy keeping up with 4 batteries
@@kennethstreet7868 Seems like we managed to fish out first salty Shimano fanboy.
If you are a 'cross and gravel fan Sram's ease of use is a benefit when dealing with the weather and terrain.
@@kennethstreet7868 3 yrs on, still haven't changed front battries, non issue
You're a LEGEND mate! Thank you.
Dura ace mechanical with direct rim brakes are a thing of beauty...simple , light and just works.
Shimano Ultegra wins for me as it came on my Condor pre fitted. Not had any issues with it at all. My first 11 speed di2 set, loving it! Fist Shimano groupset ever. Switched from Campy. I love it tbh!
I really like SRAM's wireless concept, shifting paddles, and connectivity, but DOT 5.1 brakes may be a deal breaker. Yes, DOT 5.1 works better in really cold weather, but who rides when it's -10C? From my mechanic experience, corrosive DOT fluid is associated with corroded master cylinders, worn seals, and seized pistons. If they had mineral oil brakes, they would be a slam dunk.
I have XTR di2 on my mountian bike. I was blown away.
My road bike has Ultegra di2, haven't ridden it yet. Should have the bike next week. Cant wait
How’d you like the di2
@@hahayea3702 love it, wouldn't want it any other way..
After crashing pretty good on my roadie which had a complete Ultegra R8000 groupset and 25mm tires, I figured it was time for a new bike and used the opportunity to go gravel. Invested in a S Works Diverge with SRAM Red etap derailleurs, shifters, disc breaks and Force crankset with 38mm tires. Not only does it make more sense for the type of riding I do(mostly climbing and downhill) on the horrible roads we have here in California but I also wanted to have the gearing for off-roading as well. Let me just say, it rides like a dream and I’ve fallen in love with the SRAM groupset. It’s extremely smooth and shifting just happens. The disc breaking is phenomenal. No more rim breaks for me. I now ride with extreme confidence and I’ve barely missed a step as far as speed time on the road from my previous setup.
Great review, but do the BikeRadar folks ever get to ride in warm, sunny weather?
I went Shimano to get the new GRX levers. Couldn’t be happier.
Yeah they're really nice. Feel much more ergonomic than the simple design of the old SRAM Rival hoods I used to have.
For the new DA, I hope shimano counters SRAM's new ratios with a simple "our front derailleur handles 53/34 no problem ". I'm running ultegra 8000 mechanical 52/34 up front. It works flawless and gives me a huge range.
What would I go for? Force 1x axs of course! Gets rid of the nasty front derailleur I only lose a little in terms of gear range (don't use my 11 tooth much anyway). I would then change my mind completely and say if i'm only shifting at the rear then a cabled system works really well and cost a bout a grand less. So Force 1x is the answer to all your dreams (as long as you don't mind replacing gear cables every year or so).
had a Canyon mechanical frame bike decided to make them electronic so only option was SRAM as the frame didn't have routing for the UDI2 not managing to get used to SRAM chain rings options (i'm used to 53/39 and 52/36 with 11/28 cassette) i sold them and got me a Canyon endorace UDI2 and very happy
Superb comparison. How about connecting to bike computers like Garmin/Wahoo? It seems Ultegra w/o BT/ ANT+ will simply not work so this small extra device is more obligatory than optional.
That is what the wireless inline bluetooth he mentioned is for.
David Mansfield I think you didn’t get my point here, who buys Di2 but does not use bike comp? It is like buying a car but without a remote controller - yes, you don’t need it as long as you have a key but... ;-)
@@zyghom I agree with you there. It should be a standard feature. My SRAM Red Etap came standard with the ability to link with my Wahoo. Shimano made it an afterthought.
Actually, I just upgraded to Di2 coming from mechanical. Did opt against adding the BLE/ANT+ unit. Why ? It is not needed. You'll do your setup initially, perhaps change it 2 or 3 times, fool around with things. Easy to do via a laptop. After that you are done. On the Garmin/Wahoo/Lezyne there is not enough relevant information displayed or recorded that makes it worth while, perhaps except that battery status. I did check first with a lot of buddies who had Di2 as to how they'd use it after 6 months ... and most even don't use the top buttons to switch screens on the Garmin ...
...■■■ Content is always top notch. My only suggestion would be to change from the white background when you are on camera as the contrast is too great. Anything BUT that bright white would be an improvement. Cheers.
I am 100% a Sram guy yet I never rode an electronic group set. The major differences I had with the 10 speed mechanical is how abrupt shifting is with Sram and how ridiculously smoother Shimanio compared, Sram on the other hand is so much lighter however Sram rear cogs and front derailleur is not as long lasting.
I waited for Sram Electronic group set for what feels like eternity, then I waited more for Sram to get rid of any/all bugs out of the system.
So my obvious preference is going to be Sram but I rather a 53 tooth gear ring up front.
I've owned both (currently the Di2) and I must say the completely wireless setup with the Force ETap was very cool though I wasn't a fan of 12 speed. But I don't think you can go wrong as far as efficient shifting with both.
I forgot how much these electric groups cost... I'll stick with mechanical and spend the savings on some new wheels instead
I've made both upgrades, actually. Depends on what wheels you are riding now, of course, but personally I got more joy overall from electronic shifting. But it doesnt make you bike look as good as carbon wheels.
They're expensive, but electronic is so much better in shifting than mechanical counterpart, you can keep it for a while and won't feel the need to immediately upgrade to the next generation groupset.
Our just go for the mechanical Dura Ace with a very small price increase over Ultegra di2
@@BICIeCOMPUTERconGabriele Last summer I took a trip to Italy and rented a Pinarello F10 Dogma with mechanical DuraAce for 6 days. One of the great memories of my life. An astonishing great feel on that bike. And Italy of course, near Rimini. Every single day some thought of the rides I had there comes to mind. But.... the only thing I liked better when I got home was the Ultegra Di2 on my Tarmac.
@@stuartdryer1352 I'm an old school guy... lightweight, simple, mechanical, rim brakes!
Sram Red AXS is my choice. Sure expensive, but bling, easy to use, easy setup, easy connectivity, 12 speed. Works for me. Quite sure the next Dura Ace will also be 12-speed.
Which groupset would I like??? I will stick with Campagnolo for as long as I can. Looks better and ergonomic is so much better (for me) Just wish I could afford a disc upgrade, but that will be the next new road bike I guess...
Great video! Ultegra for me, although I agree about mechanical Dura Ace given the option of the three 👍
Using the SRAM AXS with front derailleur, will a 650b wheel 'fit with clearance at the battery? Or does one have to go 1x? This is a problem with the older version eTAP Red. Thanks.
SRAM AXS has a redesigned front derailleur wirh more clearance. Works fine with a double chainring front crank on my gravel bike.
Very good review - thank you. Still undecided!
Price price price! Why dose every one always miss the price ? The overall cost the cost of replacing the chain, cassette, pads,
Dreamer @19:16 ✌️
@@that_which_is_not overall cost, but what about changing worn parts?? Sram axs are more expensive as they are much less common.
I have the Ultegra and it is just perfect!!