Hey guys, our new shop is open: www.cyclingapps.net/shop/shop-front/ 🏬 also please support us by joining our 2000 members on our strava club: fft.tips/strava 🙏 Here are the chapters in this video: 1:42 comfort on bike (stats) 3:37 find saddle tilt using tape measure 4:44 find saddle tilt using an app 8:08 torso vs hip vs saddle angle 9:00 aero benefits of small frontal area 9:40 UCI rules on saddle tilt 10:45 freely chosen position 12:11 quick aero position calculator 13:20 power vs position 14:20 speed vs position 15:00 Slam drop calculator (free) 16:50 Rotation vs watt saving
Great review on saddle tilt! There is an interesting new saddle line on the market. V-O2.com saddles have some solid pressure mapping study comparisons to top saddles like Fizik, SMP, ISM, COBB, SQ LABS. ( See website: v-o2.com/health-science ) Their pressure mapping study comparisons show low or no pressure on the perineum. Reviews seem strong. Anyone have any personal feedback or use?
Well it looks like I will tilt my seat slightly forward.🤓 I stay on the aero bars, so I am hoping I can put down more 🔋 power, more speed, and be more aerodynamic. 🚴♂️🤔🙊🙈🙉🤪
Being limber and having a strong core is something many cyclists should strive for and it will affect your riding style, that said when I went for a bike fit, the person immediately changed my saddle to a shorter, wider saddle to stabilize my hips seeing that my hips were rocking excessively. My previous saddle did not support my sit bones. Switching to a proper saddle changed everything, gave me more stability, power, and efficiency. He also slightly tilted my saddle down seeing that is where my pedaling was at its best. Afterwards I went on a stretching routine for my hamstrings and lower back as well as doing lots of planks. Low aero positions are now no big deal and actually I really enjoy them as I am relaxed in those positions at age 62.
This video popped up about an hour before my evening ride. Adjusted the seat from flat to tilting forward and VOILA!, limited case of Numb Nuts and almost no numb hands. Will continue to fiddle until I get the right fit, but I’m DEFINITELY on the right track. My ride is a 5 mile uphill with an average gradient of 5.6% and an elevation gain of about 1,500 feet - Thanks for the tips!
Ian Chandley yeah I have the same problem. I rode for comfort. Am big. Feeling numb down there. It’s slightly pointed up. Should I point slightly nose down ?
@@beamboy420 try pointing it slightly down. Like yourself, I'm a big guy and am riding a large frame instead of XL. I set the seat tilting 30-degrees down. Also play with your post height.
if you live in an area that has long climbs, like over 10kms, the forward tilt is nice to make up for the slope angle. i try to find a middle ground, to not slip off the front in the flats but not to slip back on the hills. foreward tilt 100%
Saddle tilt should vary from horizontal by a few degrees and that's it. Trying to relieve pressure at the back or the front by forward or rearward tilt can relieve pressure but it will also make you slide in the direction from which you are trying to relieve pressure, so unless you are constantly bracing with your upper body (which, you shouldn't) excessive saddle tilt is counterproductive. If you are experiencing discomfort then try different saddles. If you have extreme saddle to bar drop (which, you shouldn't) try raising your bars. You can get aero with a longer stem. That helps to get your back flat without excessive forward hip rotation and pressure on the genitals.
I've had other riders advice me to not tilt down as I have my saddle now as it can cause pains. But I train my upper body to be able to maintain the position . For me having the saddle tip lower gives me less saddle pain in the tender area, I am applying less energy to move faster -less wind resistance, and applying power to the pedal at an angle rather the applying power sitting upright . Only downside is pain to the hands and that's something I keep training for. This tilt down posture for me is especially good for climbing hills.
I keep mine level. For saddle, I use Selle Italia Max Gel Flow for comfort and super long days in the saddle. When I want to ride with no hands on the bars (completely zonked), level is best. Being an old guy (55) in June, I'm rarely in the drops and mostly on top my hoods or on top of my bars. At 50 y.o., I flipped my stem. The 6 degrees rise helps my neck,...a lot.
From my personal experience I can say the following: chose the saddle which allows you to rotate your hips whilst maintaining a straight back when in the drops. I used to have a selle italia saddle on which I couldn't be comfortable because of the excess pressure in the perineum area which made we sit as if I was on the hoods (with respect to the sit bone pressure on the saddle) but with a rounded back allowing an aggressive position without the discomfort in the perineum area. This gave me back pain and shoulder and neck pain since I also had to tilt my saddle down adding more weight to the front of the bike which my body had to carry instead of the saddle. This all changed when I tried my current Specialized Power saddle which is wide enough, tends to rotate your hips naturally when the saddle is leveled, and is very comfortable in the aero position. All of a sudden I stopped caring about small changes in saddle angle. I also noticed that I had more power since the straight back position allowed me to use my core muscles better, and I could also keep a lower torso angle for a longer period of time. This is the reason I am not a big fan of the 'torso angle' metric because it doesn't that into account the fact that the torso can be straight or rounded, which affects your confort, how much power you can deliver and how long you can hold the position for. One last thing that helped me as well: if you are in the drops or aero bars for long periods of time, don't hesitate moving your saddle forward as this will reduce the hip angle whilst keeping the same torso angle (you might have to go for a slightly longer stem though)
I have put Selle SMP saddles on all three of my bicycles. On my adventure bike I may have gone too far with the SMP Hybrid because it is a bit fat, I'm reconsidering a Glider because I have a suspension seatpost, the firmer saddle will be just fine. In my old age I have discovered the joys of suspension seat posts and soon will be buying suspension stems.
I was about to ask if there is any correlation between saddle angle and low back pain. I need to do some more experimentation with saddles and lowering the nose of my saddle to see if I can get my back straightened out. Pun intended.
I think that's an excellent point Antoine. I find that when i am a bit too low I have a wonderful side effect of being able to rotate pelvis forward, which could enable me to have a proper length stem on the bike. Unfortunately I get hip pain if I do this for any length of time though, so I think a slightly nose down but higher saddle (eg where hips just rock if I pedal backwards with heels on pedals) might be just the job.
Thank you! Amazingly pain and discomfort have gone away with a simple adjustment, almost gave away my bike, now I even go on longer rides! Thank's for the tips on your video!
Ultimately the best position (if you are trying to cover your distances in the shortest time) is a balance of aerodynamics and power output. Extreme aerodynamic positions reduce the amount of power output and relaxed positions create more drag. Each produces diminished marginal gains at their extremes. so the power meter and the clock become your best friends as you try to find your ideal compromise. Keeping in mind that people like Graeme Obree have been able to train their bodies to put out power in extreme positions that I myself would never be happy adopting. So it is a matter of what you are willing to do to make your gains, and that has a lot to do with personal choices, but I am glad that this video is here to help with those decisions. Thank you!
I've always kept mine level or minutely up. I ride Selle Italia Max Gel Flow. Kind of heavy but oh so comfortable. I appreciate my Max Gel Flow the most when I'm on my way back home.
This. Idea is super informational! I used to have a hybrid bike, 2005 Marin Mill Valley and I adjust the saddle to be slight downwards. Although it put some extra stress and weight on my arms and upper torso, I felts better that way on my back. Later however I was told to change it to flat and I lowered my saddle to fit it. Years later, I got a 2011 Giant TCR Composite and geometry was too aggressive! I couldn’t even ride it over 30 minutes or my back felt breaking pain. I will try to angle the saddle a bit and refit the saddle again!
This series encouraged me to keep trying different angles. I had the saddle tilted up subtly and had trouble riding on the drops. Top of bars ok. Lowered the nose slightly and got comfortable in drops but too much pressure on hands on tops. Using an enormous caliper under top tube to 3mm above nose of saddle I got a Goldilocks setup. The problem was a tricky infinite adjust seatpost clamp. Had to establish baseline to avoid overshooting adjustment. I lucked out in getting an ideal saddle on the first try. Many years in the saddle and this one is really good.
The nose of my saddle was always slightly up. If it was level, I slipped forward. I could ride on a downward pointing saddle, but I had to hold myself from sliding forward with my arms. That was fatiguing, and wasted energy. I rode on the drops for long periods of time without any discomfort to my groin. This video doesn't address energy wasted by your arms to hold yourself on the seat.
Yes it's interesting how experimenting and then plotting charts combining more than one variable, confirms simple truths. i.e. I don't know how many times over post ride coffee I've tried to explain to others that aerodynamics is the most important variable for gaining speed in competition. Some want to argue that yeah, but you get higher power when you open up the hip angle and you have the muscles at a more favorable length/tension relationship blah blah blah. which is when I try and get them to understand relative incremental gain for each variable. Anyway, some of the charts you presented here expressed it well.
no. Aero only goes so far. When you are put into discomfort - your wattage suffers and you slow down. It is a happy medium, but you can only increase aero gains so much. Aero is NOT the number one factor. Your coffee discussions clearly don't have enough intelligent and experienced people.
Chris Lamont If there were intelligent individuals at your post ride coffee meetings, then you would learned some manners in conducting comments. You comment added nothing positive to the discussion.
@@shamuslamont100 you say 'discomfort' as if it is an insurmountable constant! if you experience discomfort in a more aero position, you engage in exercise and usually weight loss programs that reduce the source of discomfort. Often this is spinal facet joint stiffness, anterior hip joint capsular impingement, or fibrotic bands in the hip flexors. Once again, drag is a constant as are gains in reducing it. Discomfort is not a constant. It can be more often resolved by an experienced clinician who understands its cause.
Aerodynamics is king. Years ago I was aware that riding downhill into a strong headwind it was profitable to get so low it reduced power. Could just breath. In any other circumstances ride a position that you can maintain and still put out good power.
Thank you coach!! I like the saddle nose *Wayyy* tilted down. And it’s not just because I have a saddle that’s wrong for me. I did a large blind saddle selection at a bike shop and I always prefer it tilted down with any saddle I have ever owned. I just like it that way.
Really cool video! I have an idea for you, you could make a handlebar science video (about width and shape), talk about comfort and add those watt savings to slammed stem and tilted saddle
When I first got my Brooks I thought I'd put it on wrong when I saw the upward angle, but it's also the most comfortable thing I've ever ridden on so I stopped worrying about it.
There are other biomechanical/performance benefits with a preferable 2 - to - 3, even 4 degree nose up angle, but, alas, today's brain dead cyclists and "expert advisors" refuse to understand/accept same.
I use a brooks because it find the polished surface make me slide around a bit. This makes it so I am not in the same spot for too long. If I am going for speed, I tilt my saddle down about two teeth worth. So far it is the most comfortable saddle I have used but I keep trying new ones. It is the most difficult aspect if riding.
New bikes come with rock hard saddles , after trying soft fat saddle s , various versions you end up with the first hard saddle it came with almost level or close to it . After seasoning your butt to hard saddle ridding , adding shorts with padding depending you ride enough to keep your butt use to hard saddles. 40 years on road bikes .just keep Riding.
Absolutely spot on. I've argued with idiots for years who claimed otherwise. Saddle height and tilt is a preference and it mainly depends how you train if you do. I can tell with certainly, more so it is not static and it shouldn't be. Little space it provides i find myself shifting back and forth depending on what ride I am in. Climbing, i shift back, straight road where i need to put the hammer, i find myself shifting forward and I can tell I am able find the 6th gear :).
I suffer from pudendal nerve entrapment issues. Had to tilt my seat downward quite a bit and for awhile was awkward but over time I got used to it and now have no PNE problems. Knock wood! The temporary awkwardness pales in comparison to PNE and its possibility of permanence!!
The optimal angle is the angle you are most comfortable over a long distance. Worth the time and effort investment to experiment with small changes in angles and listen to your body.
I do bike work, and I tell people that, for the casual rider, the back part of the saddle that you sit on SHOULD BE LEVEL WITH THE RIDING SURFACE. I've been riding bikes since the early 70's, and that's when Schwinn came out with the 5 speed Collegiate and started working on bikes then.
You sound like chainbear. Thanx for the info, I’ve tilted my saddle nose down a few degrees on my road and tri bikes and have gained speed. On My tri bike, however, there is a tendency to slide forwards millimetre by mm as I pedal; and thus have to push my bum backwards every few minutes
sliding happens for me even without tilting, when i rised my saddle higher, i started to slide sometimes, but pushing back and having good arm tension push me in position
Thanks for the great video. I always tilted my saddle since 1999 and can't ride any saddle in perfect horizontal position. Not important with or without a channel/cut on the saddle.
Doesn't tilting the saddle open the hip but yet allow improved torso angle? I've changed all my bikes to TT saddles. ISM with a -5 degree tilt. Being able to put my junk in the front and the saddle angle has improved my comfort and position.
Many seat-posts have a rigid seat platform. They do not allow an adjustable pitch. Solution: Using a hack-saw, cut off the rigid seat-post platform and attach an adjustable post clamp between the post and the seat rails.
This is so much great information. I have tried four different saddles before settling with the ISM Adamo (for now) I like it personally almost neutral in the posture 1 position. I can see how personal it is.
@@josh786manchester nothing is going to fix that besides more time in the saddle. I suggest shorter rides until your sit bones become accustomed to the pressure. Are you fit from other means? Runner? For runners, their overall fitness often greatly exceeds their tolerance for cycling specific strains.
0:46 Well I mean apart from BMX. Also Downhill mountain bikers and MTB dirt jump bikers often have a their saddle tiled upward. Anything really where you're either spending a lot of time pointed downwards, or wherever you need to use you thighs/knees against the saddle to help control the bike. A quick Google search and you'll turn up tons of pictures. Great vid btw! Enjoyed sir.
On every bycycle I purchased, I point the tip of the saddle points toward the goose beck's highest point or directly at the handlebars. Very comfortable ride, even with a distance if 100km. 🚲🚲
I am too lazy to measure but my saddle is 5-7 degree tilted and I am comfortable even in upright position. I actually keep saddle tilted on all my bikes even on commuter. I run Sworks chicane 143 on my Roubaix. Phenom 155 on both MTB and commuter.
I normally ride a subtle nose up, my test is riding without gripping my bars and not sliding forward off my saddle. I don't want to be using my arms and wrists to keep me from sliding forward. I ride touring bikes for distance, but I'm getting more interested in riding those distances faster. Covering more ground in less time sounds good to me. I'll do some experimenting.
I ride a BMC RoadMachine with a 140mm -17 deg stem (140mm drop from saddle to handlebar)...and I actually have my Fabric Tri saddle with the nose pointed upward about 3 degrees. With I have my core muscles properly activated, I get zero pressure on the perineum and hands. It just works for me.
I still don't get how shorter cranks (below 170 mm) aren't the norm on aero bikes in which you must maintain low aggressive position to get 100% of the bike, shorter cranks in that situation are better suited for people who have longer legs and shorter arms like myself, I change from 172.5 to 170 and I immediately felt the difference, I wish I could get the 165 mm but the shop didn't have it in stock, shorter cranks give you more open hip angle and ideal position to breath, with longer cranks my quads kick my abdomen
Shorter cranks are easy to get. Some manufacturers like Rotor, sell the online down to 145mm and some custom places like Bikesmith design will modify certain existing cranks.
My saddle might point up, bet very, very slightly. That's because I have a disability (damaged spinal cord), which makes my legs weak, so I may slip forward unless saddle prevents that. I can cycle for now, but it gets worse, last year I could cycle for 4-5 km, and then it got difficult, this year it's down to 2-3 km, walking distance in recent 3 years has deteriorated ~7 times, from 3,5km to 500m, I can still "walk" after that - limping or dragging my feet, before I need to stop for rest.
Wow great video. Im definitely using a slightly downward tilt to be more aggressive/aero. Something that also factors in for me is the flex (or slop) in the saddle. Im using a fizik antares r3 versus which has a lot of flex, effectively making the downward angle more level when seated.
It really depends on what kind of Saddle you use. If it's the flatter kind tilting it forward will help keep you from sliding back, but your hands are going to pick up the weight. I use SMP Saddles, seems to work best more or less level depending on the particular person. I'm kind of an older guy, find a slightly less aggressive position just fine and I can use my elbows and draw down when I need to get aero to keep my tail clear. I don't like it when people draft me. I don't get free air and neither do they. Let's face it everything we discuss here has something to do with competition, in my case just for fun.
Its all about how long you ride for. For half an hour I could ride saddle down and go really fast. Faster than with a level saddle! 6 hours of nose down though, and all of us would be in agony with numb shoulders and fingers. Of course, a saddle that is too high also HAS to be pointing down. The UCI has now allowed saddles to be nose down and interestingly most pro riders seem to have gone for it. But only by 5mm or so though. All of this in my humble opinion of course.
Well, you have to think about sliding forward and having to correct your position on the bike every 5 minutes. Also put more pressure on your legs to maintain position without having to slide back. I tried and doesn't work for me. Flat saddle keeps me where I need to be. If saddle is to high, then is going to affect your sags when going aero position.
It's more likely due to aggressive positioning that forces hip rotation, requiring the angle to be sloped downwards. People with flat saddles often tilt them down to mimic a saddle with a kick up at the back that enables hip rotation. Depending on the weight of the rider and the compliance of the seatpost/frame, a completely level saddle will actually be an upwards tilt when sat on the bike.
A lot of saddle/post clamps don't let u angle it forward/down.. I had to get a new clamp that would let me adjust the angle to what made me comfortable
So what adjustments should be made on my saddle if my taint(?) On either sides is so sore I can barely sit down without pain following a semi long ride? ***I'm not sure how else to describe or pinpoint the sore areas in my crotch region. Since there is diffrence in anatomical structures then I'm sure men are different than women in that musculoskeletal region of that area . Sorry if this seems like a dumb blonde question but I'm dead serious about the pain. It hurts! Please help me help my crotch not hurt so bad!!***
If you are properly balanced on the bike, with correct setback, stem and bar length/height and crank length, the the most comfortable saddle will be level. Anything else and you have an issue with your fit. A fit is a process and a level saddle is the final step. If you have saddle issues, get a good fit first, then try different saddles, but always level.
I like mine about 2 - 3 degrees forward. It puts more weight on the ischiums and less on the soft tissue at the front. Also putting the you hands on the bars give a slight force vector backwards putting the force perpendicular to the tilted saddle. I ride fast, often with my forearms on the bars and have taken to putting my left ischium on the rivet i.e. sitting at the front so that I can sit on bony tissue rather than soft tissue. I have made this very comfortable in the time trial position through tissue hardening. I think I can still have babies lol
Constant riding with an aerodynamic posture puts a strain on the C5/C6 and C6/C7 neck joints, leading to compression at the rear of the discs. Eventually, at around age 45, you will get numb fingers as the bone impinges on the nerves. You will then end up with chronic incurable neck pain and constant visits to the osteopath. For good aerodynamcs and ergonomics, recumbent cycling is the way to go. In my experience, a forward tilted saddle puts pressure on the knee and causes knee pain.
I have installed Selle SMP saddles on all my bicycles and I find that it depends on the individual because level works for me between three different disciplines. I put the SMP Hybrid on my adventure bike because I like to sit more vertically from time to time and in the drops it's comfortable, maybe a bit fat. The Stratos on my road and Cx is a better spinning saddle because it's leather and narrower, but the same shape as the other SMPs.
Freestyle BMX Riders use the seat to prevent cutting the private areas with the seat post, they don't actually sit. that's why it's set so low and with a bit of tilt.
If you get the front of the saddle to low you will find it almost impossible to ride no handed. I know that some people don't ever want to ride with hands off of the bar.
joynthis Because they have a costume their bodies to that ride position for years in small increments in order to allow the body to adapt to this position , they train 8 hr per week, making 30,000 kms per year.
Interesting that self selected ST angle is avg 78! I got custom frames built to 77 degrees and short HT 90mm because most bikes have 74 degrees and HT of about 120mm for my size (52cm TT). When I'm putting power down I ride with a flat back. My handlebar drop is about 17cm, sometimes 19cm without spacers. I don't know my saddle angle, but I've finely tuned it by feel, I guess it's about 10 deg down. Tip of the saddle is exactly over bb vertical line, that's UCI illegal for road races I guess, but no commissaire has ever measured it, I don't care. I haven't tried a tt saddle yet...
I can’t help myself. I’ve got a enormous Brooks B190 saddle on my stretched beach cruiser. It’s noticeably tilted way up and it’s like sitting on a leather club chair. I know this is a completely different type of cycling but I felt a need to be a contrarian. Great video
I've tried so many things that didn't work that I've just concluded that my issues have nothing to with the seat. I think my problem stems from downward pressure from my internal organs into my perineum. I can ride without pain but the after effects are unacceptable. Guess it's a recumbent for me now.
Question if I tilt my seat down let's say 15 degrees, is that not causing a sheer stress across skin on my butt and now that the contact space between my butt and the seat is smaller a lot more pressure in that area. Also, should I move the seat up slightly so that I am basically leaning on the seat instead of sitting on it? If I am new to tilting my seat should I increase the angle over time or combine it with my hip angle to achieve optimum performance right away? One last question what should my hip angle be at the top of the arc? Thank you for your time. I appreciate it very much. Danny
The seat tilted forward also puts more strain on your arms to hold the forward sloping torso up which is pure wasted energy. Seat has to be level is a cycling commandment not a choice.
Well, after you've decided on a saddle, why do you need the angle in degrees. Can't you just use a long straight edge on top of the saddle, and compare the angle by where the straight edge intersects or passes over the stem? With this merhod you decide to adjust the angle up or down by a amall amount and check the straight edge projection accordingly.
Great info. I'm trying to set a new seat/seat angle after having both hips replaced as my old setup now causes bad groin pain issues since the THR surgeries. Anyone have tips on setting up to prevent groin pain issues? I ride a mountain bike but, mostly on the road and with a cushy comfort seat. Experimenting is taking too much time as a ride that sets off the pain takes weeks to recover from.
Have to try this to believe it, cant seat angle down, so you sit on edge back of seat. No constriction, comfortable, after adjust height. My bike is a Gary fisher , seat is perfect fo steep angle.
Hey guys, our new shop is open: www.cyclingapps.net/shop/shop-front/ 🏬 also please support us by joining our 2000 members on our strava club: fft.tips/strava 🙏
Here are the chapters in this video:
1:42 comfort on bike (stats)
3:37 find saddle tilt using tape measure
4:44 find saddle tilt using an app
8:08 torso vs hip vs saddle angle
9:00 aero benefits of small frontal area
9:40 UCI rules on saddle tilt
10:45 freely chosen position
12:11 quick aero position calculator
13:20 power vs position
14:20 speed vs position
15:00 Slam drop calculator (free)
16:50 Rotation vs watt saving
Great review on saddle tilt!
There is an interesting new saddle line on the market. V-O2.com saddles have some solid pressure mapping study comparisons to top saddles like Fizik, SMP, ISM, COBB, SQ LABS. ( See website: v-o2.com/health-science ) Their pressure mapping study comparisons show low or no pressure on the perineum. Reviews seem strong.
Anyone have any personal feedback or use?
Thank you
Well it looks like I will tilt my seat slightly forward.🤓 I stay on the aero bars, so I am hoping I can put down more 🔋 power, more speed, and be more aerodynamic.
🚴♂️🤔🙊🙈🙉🤪
I am at -2 degrees on saddle tilt. I should be okay right?
Being limber and having a strong core is something many cyclists should strive for and it will affect your riding style, that said when I went for a bike fit, the person immediately changed my saddle to a shorter, wider saddle to stabilize my hips seeing that my hips were rocking excessively. My previous saddle did not support my sit bones. Switching to a proper saddle changed everything, gave me more stability, power, and efficiency. He also slightly tilted my saddle down seeing that is where my pedaling was at its best. Afterwards I went on a stretching routine for my hamstrings and lower back as well as doing lots of planks. Low aero positions are now no big deal and actually I really enjoy them as I am relaxed in those positions at age 62.
much respect, man!
Inspiring 👍
This video popped up about an hour before my evening ride. Adjusted the seat from flat to tilting forward and VOILA!, limited case of Numb Nuts and almost no numb hands. Will continue to fiddle until I get the right fit, but I’m DEFINITELY on the right track. My ride is a 5 mile uphill with an average gradient of 5.6% and an elevation gain of about 1,500 feet - Thanks for the tips!
Ian Chandley yeah I have the same problem. I rode for comfort. Am big. Feeling numb down there. It’s slightly pointed up. Should I point slightly nose down ?
@@beamboy420 try pointing it slightly down. Like yourself, I'm a big guy and am riding a large frame instead of XL. I set the seat tilting 30-degrees down. Also play with your post height.
if you live in an area that has long climbs, like over 10kms, the forward tilt is nice to make up for the slope angle. i try to find a middle ground, to not slip off the front in the flats but not to slip back on the hills. foreward tilt 100%
Saddle tilt should vary from horizontal by a few degrees and that's it. Trying to relieve pressure at the back or the front by forward or rearward tilt can relieve pressure but it will also make you slide in the direction from which you are trying to relieve pressure, so unless you are constantly bracing with your upper body (which, you shouldn't) excessive saddle tilt is counterproductive. If you are experiencing discomfort then try different saddles. If you have extreme saddle to bar drop (which, you shouldn't) try raising your bars. You can get aero with a longer stem. That helps to get your back flat without excessive forward hip rotation and pressure on the genitals.
I've had other riders advice me to not tilt down as I have my saddle now as it can cause pains. But I train my upper body to be able to maintain the position . For me having the saddle tip lower gives me less saddle pain in the tender area, I am applying less energy to move faster -less wind resistance, and applying power to the pedal at an angle rather the applying power sitting upright . Only downside is pain to the hands and that's something I keep training for. This tilt down posture for me is especially good for climbing hills.
Exactly right. It’s what works best for you. Whichever angle and how many ever degrees gives you the best posture, comfort, etc.
I keep mine level. For saddle, I use Selle Italia Max Gel Flow for comfort and super long days in the saddle. When I want to ride with no hands on the bars (completely zonked), level is best. Being an old guy (55) in June, I'm rarely in the drops and mostly on top my hoods or on top of my bars. At 50 y.o., I flipped my stem. The 6 degrees rise helps my neck,...a lot.
slam and tilt is more fun, dont get any pain
From my personal experience I can say the following: chose the saddle which allows you to rotate your hips whilst maintaining a straight back when in the drops. I used to have a selle italia saddle on which I couldn't be comfortable because of the excess pressure in the perineum area which made we sit as if I was on the hoods (with respect to the sit bone pressure on the saddle) but with a rounded back allowing an aggressive position without the discomfort in the perineum area. This gave me back pain and shoulder and neck pain since I also had to tilt my saddle down adding more weight to the front of the bike which my body had to carry instead of the saddle. This all changed when I tried my current Specialized Power saddle which is wide enough, tends to rotate your hips naturally when the saddle is leveled, and is very comfortable in the aero position. All of a sudden I stopped caring about small changes in saddle angle. I also noticed that I had more power since the straight back position allowed me to use my core muscles better, and I could also keep a lower torso angle for a longer period of time. This is the reason I am not a big fan of the 'torso angle' metric because it doesn't that into account the fact that the torso can be straight or rounded, which affects your confort, how much power you can deliver and how long you can hold the position for. One last thing that helped me as well: if you are in the drops or aero bars for long periods of time, don't hesitate moving your saddle forward as this will reduce the hip angle whilst keeping the same torso angle (you might have to go for a slightly longer stem though)
I have put Selle SMP saddles on all three of my bicycles. On my adventure bike I may have gone too far with the SMP Hybrid because it is a bit fat, I'm reconsidering a Glider because I have a suspension seatpost, the firmer saddle will be just fine.
In my old age I have discovered the joys of suspension seat posts and soon will be buying suspension stems.
I was about to ask if there is any correlation between saddle angle and low back pain. I need to do some more experimentation with saddles and lowering the nose of my saddle to see if I can get my back straightened out. Pun intended.
I think that's an excellent point Antoine. I find that when i am a bit too low I have a wonderful side effect of being able to rotate pelvis forward, which could enable me to have a proper length stem on the bike. Unfortunately I get hip pain if I do this for any length of time though, so I think a slightly nose down but higher saddle (eg where hips just rock if I pedal backwards with heels on pedals) might be just the job.
Thank you! Amazingly pain and discomfort have gone away with a simple adjustment, almost gave away my bike, now I even go on longer rides! Thank's for the tips on your video!
Ultimately the best position (if you are trying to cover your distances in the shortest time) is a balance of aerodynamics and power output. Extreme aerodynamic positions reduce the amount of power output and relaxed positions create more drag. Each produces diminished marginal gains at their extremes. so the power meter and the clock become your best friends as you try to find your ideal compromise. Keeping in mind that people like Graeme Obree have been able to train their bodies to put out power in extreme positions that I myself would never be happy adopting. So it is a matter of what you are willing to do to make your gains, and that has a lot to do with personal choices, but I am glad that this video is here to help with those decisions. Thank you!
Brooks B17 is often tilted slightly upwards on touring bikes. Handlebars then normally equal height or a few cm higher than the saddle.
I've always kept mine level or minutely up. I ride Selle Italia Max Gel Flow. Kind of heavy but oh so comfortable. I appreciate my Max Gel Flow the most when I'm on my way back home.
This. Idea is super informational! I used to have a hybrid bike, 2005 Marin Mill Valley and I adjust the saddle to be slight downwards. Although it put some extra stress and weight on my arms and upper torso, I felts better that way on my back. Later however I was told to change it to flat and I lowered my saddle to fit it. Years later, I got a 2011 Giant TCR Composite and geometry was too aggressive! I couldn’t even ride it over 30 minutes or my back felt breaking pain. I will try to angle the saddle a bit and refit the saddle again!
This series encouraged me to keep trying different angles. I had the saddle tilted up subtly and had trouble riding on the drops. Top of bars ok. Lowered the nose slightly and got comfortable in drops but too much pressure on hands on tops. Using an enormous caliper under top tube to 3mm above nose of saddle I got a Goldilocks setup. The problem was a tricky infinite adjust seatpost clamp. Had to establish baseline to avoid overshooting adjustment. I lucked out in getting an ideal saddle on the first try. Many years in the saddle and this one is really good.
Bike fit is needed to se if you need to lower it. I got a fit and my saddle was lowered and it does work for me as I am a triathlete/TT rider
Fore, aft, up, down saddle position is science. Saddle tilt is a matter of comfort and utility.
I think my saddle found it's own angle over time haha
Relooking at my saddle setup with more scrutiny, thank you!
Just started using a bike to commute to work. My tailbone hurt for over a week. But its feeling better now.
I had it down a little from o and hurt my left hip ! Now I tilted it up 5 degrees its A1 !
hip pain = saddle too low. Can also give way to horrendous referred lower back pain... Raise by 5mm to 1cm.
The nose of my saddle was always slightly up. If it was level, I slipped forward. I could ride on a downward pointing saddle, but I had to hold myself from sliding forward with my arms. That was fatiguing, and wasted energy. I rode on the drops for long periods of time without any discomfort to my groin.
This video doesn't address energy wasted by your arms to hold yourself on the seat.
Yes it's interesting how experimenting and then plotting charts combining more than one variable, confirms simple truths. i.e. I don't know how many times over post ride coffee I've tried to explain to others that aerodynamics is the most important variable for gaining speed in competition. Some want to argue that yeah, but you get higher power when you open up the hip angle and you have the muscles at a more favorable length/tension relationship blah blah blah. which is when I try and get them to understand relative incremental gain for each variable. Anyway, some of the charts you presented here expressed it well.
no. Aero only goes so far. When you are put into discomfort - your wattage suffers and you slow down. It is a happy medium, but you can only increase aero gains so much. Aero is NOT the number one factor. Your coffee discussions clearly don't have enough intelligent and experienced people.
@@shamuslamont100 as long as there's an open discussion, the understanding can move forward. Maybe rude youtube comments has the same effect?
Chris Lamont If there were intelligent individuals at your post ride coffee meetings, then you would learned some manners in conducting comments.
You comment added nothing positive to the discussion.
@@shamuslamont100
you say 'discomfort' as if it is an insurmountable constant!
if you experience discomfort in a more aero position, you engage in exercise and usually weight loss programs that reduce the source of discomfort. Often this is spinal facet joint stiffness, anterior hip joint capsular impingement, or fibrotic bands in the hip flexors.
Once again, drag is a constant as are gains in reducing it.
Discomfort is not a constant. It can be more often resolved by an experienced clinician who understands its cause.
Aerodynamics is king. Years ago I was aware that riding downhill into a strong headwind it was profitable to get so low it reduced power. Could just breath. In any other circumstances ride a position that you can maintain and still put out good power.
Thank you coach!!
I like the saddle nose *Wayyy* tilted down. And it’s not just because I have a saddle that’s wrong for me. I did a large blind saddle selection at a bike shop and I always prefer it tilted down with any saddle I have ever owned. I just like it that way.
Really cool video! I have an idea for you, you could make a handlebar science video (about width and shape), talk about comfort and add those watt savings to slammed stem and tilted saddle
Definately planned! Thanks for the feedback!
Brooks style saddles need to be tilted up slightly so your sit bones rest on the saddle properly. It is a bit of a different beast.
That is really true!
When I first got my Brooks I thought I'd put it on wrong when I saw the upward angle, but it's also the most comfortable thing I've ever ridden on so I stopped worrying about it.
There are other biomechanical/performance benefits with a preferable 2 - to - 3, even 4 degree nose up angle, but, alas, today's brain dead cyclists and "expert advisors" refuse to understand/accept same.
I use a brooks because it find the polished surface make me slide around a bit. This makes it so I am not in the same spot for too long. If I am going for speed, I tilt my saddle down about two teeth worth. So far it is the most comfortable saddle I have used but I keep trying new ones. It is the most difficult aspect if riding.
I went from skinny to padded in a few years to leisure that I did not know. Nothing stops my bum pain and wrists pain and numbness.
New bikes come with rock hard saddles , after trying soft fat saddle s , various versions you end up with the first hard saddle it came with almost level or close to it . After seasoning your butt to hard saddle ridding , adding shorts with padding depending you ride enough to keep your butt use to hard saddles. 40 years on road bikes .just keep Riding.
Absolutely spot on. I've argued with idiots for years who claimed otherwise. Saddle height and tilt is a preference and it mainly depends how you train if you do. I can tell with certainly, more so it is not static and it shouldn't be. Little space it provides i find myself shifting back and forth depending on what ride I am in. Climbing, i shift back, straight road where i need to put the hammer, i find myself shifting forward and I can tell I am able find the 6th gear :).
I suffer from pudendal nerve entrapment issues. Had to tilt my seat downward quite a bit and for awhile was awkward but over time I got used to it and now have no PNE problems. Knock wood! The temporary awkwardness pales in comparison to PNE and its possibility of permanence!!
The optimal angle is the angle you are most comfortable over a long distance. Worth the time and effort investment to experiment with small changes in angles and listen to your body.
Thanks I learnt more from your video today. no worries about the length as it takes a while to explain. Thanks
I do bike work, and I tell people that, for the casual rider, the back part of the saddle that you sit on SHOULD BE LEVEL WITH THE RIDING SURFACE. I've been riding bikes since the early 70's, and that's when Schwinn came out with the 5 speed Collegiate and started working on bikes then.
I tried a level saddle and ouch on my prostate. I had to tilt it down for comfort
You sound like chainbear.
Thanx for the info, I’ve tilted my saddle nose down a few degrees on my road and tri bikes and have gained speed.
On My tri bike, however, there is a tendency to slide forwards millimetre by mm as I pedal; and thus have to push my bum backwards every few minutes
Ro Ye ... yes experienced this , I’d rather level my saddle a bit more, sliding forward not good at least for me anyway.
sliding happens for me even without tilting, when i rised my saddle higher, i started to slide sometimes, but pushing back and having good arm tension push me in position
Thanks for the great video. I always tilted my saddle since 1999 and can't ride any saddle in perfect horizontal position. Not important with or without a channel/cut on the saddle.
Doesn't tilting the saddle open the hip but yet allow improved torso angle? I've changed all my bikes to TT saddles. ISM with a -5 degree tilt. Being able to put my junk in the front and the saddle angle has improved my comfort and position.
Many seat-posts have a rigid seat platform. They do not allow an adjustable pitch. Solution: Using a hack-saw, cut off the rigid seat-post platform and attach an adjustable post clamp between the post and the seat rails.
Brooks leather saddles quite often are tilted up.
It is what I use but I tip mine down a few degrees.
Time for a on the fly adjustable saddle system.
This is so much great information. I have tried four different saddles before settling with the ISM Adamo (for now) I like it personally almost neutral in the posture 1 position. I can see how personal it is.
what about the position of feet on pedals; ie foot with pedal in middle, toes on pedal, heel on pedal ?
The saddle must be wide enough to support your ischium bones and seat bones first. Then experiment with tilt.
I went bought a bike other day after many many years.. after few hours my seat bones are in serious pain😭
@@josh786manchester nothing is going to fix that besides more time in the saddle. I suggest shorter rides until your sit bones become accustomed to the pressure. Are you fit from other means? Runner? For runners, their overall fitness often greatly exceeds their tolerance for cycling specific strains.
Gregory Thomas i wear jeans. I have now fitted a wide bum saddle with springs and also added a gel pad. Feels like a sofa now! ☺️
0:46 Well I mean apart from BMX. Also Downhill mountain bikers and MTB dirt jump bikers often have a their saddle tiled upward. Anything really where you're either spending a lot of time pointed downwards, or wherever you need to use you thighs/knees against the saddle to help control the bike. A quick Google search and you'll turn up tons of pictures.
Great vid btw! Enjoyed sir.
Free/cheap performance gains, this channel is the most dense source of them. I'm surprised I wasn't subscrubed up to now.
thanks you are too kind, although many people find the information too dense and want gameshow style entertainment!
Fizik Antares. 2 deg at the tip and 6.5 at the rear end. My Giant TCR became much faster and comfortable. Thanks for the video.
On every bycycle I purchased, I point the tip of the saddle points toward the goose beck's highest point or directly at the handlebars. Very comfortable ride, even with a distance if 100km. 🚲🚲
If you have found your personal saddle angle sweet spot....then who can argue with that?!
towards the what? :)
I am too lazy to measure but my saddle is 5-7 degree tilted and I am comfortable even in upright position. I actually keep saddle tilted on all my bikes even on commuter. I run Sworks chicane 143 on my Roubaix. Phenom 155 on both MTB and commuter.
I normally ride a subtle nose up, my test is riding without gripping my bars and not sliding forward off my saddle. I don't want to be using my arms and wrists to keep me from sliding forward. I ride touring bikes for distance, but I'm getting more interested in riding those distances faster. Covering more ground in less time sounds good to me. I'll do some experimenting.
I ride a BMC RoadMachine with a 140mm -17 deg stem (140mm drop from saddle to handlebar)...and I actually have my Fabric Tri saddle with the nose pointed upward about 3 degrees. With I have my core muscles properly activated, I get zero pressure on the perineum and hands. It just works for me.
The angle calculator on the phone is influenced by where you place it on the saddle as well.
Its the pressure on the hands is what to get rid of cheers
You killed it with the info... thank you fast tips!!!
I still don't get how shorter cranks (below 170 mm) aren't the norm on aero bikes in which you must maintain low aggressive position to get 100% of the bike, shorter cranks in that situation are better suited for people who have longer legs and shorter arms like myself, I change from 172.5 to 170 and I immediately felt the difference, I wish I could get the 165 mm but the shop didn't have it in stock, shorter cranks give you more open hip angle and ideal position to breath, with longer cranks my quads kick my abdomen
Shorter cranks are easy to get. Some manufacturers like Rotor, sell the online down to 145mm and some custom places like Bikesmith design will modify certain existing cranks.
I think I am going to try this and also a shorter steam, my long long legs!
According to my height, the market suggested crank length for me is 172.5mm but I use the Ultegra R8000 cranks in 165mm and I love them.
My saddle might point up, bet very, very slightly. That's because I have a disability (damaged spinal cord), which makes my legs weak, so I may slip forward unless saddle prevents that.
I can cycle for now, but it gets worse, last year I could cycle for 4-5 km, and then it got difficult, this year it's down to 2-3 km, walking distance in recent 3 years has deteriorated ~7 times, from 3,5km to 500m, I can still "walk" after that - limping or dragging my feet, before I need to stop for rest.
Wow great video. Im definitely using a slightly downward tilt to be more aggressive/aero. Something that also factors in for me is the flex (or slop) in the saddle. Im using a fizik antares r3 versus which has a lot of flex, effectively making the downward angle more level when seated.
It really depends on what kind of Saddle you use. If it's the flatter kind tilting it forward will help keep you from sliding back, but your hands are going to pick up the weight. I use SMP Saddles, seems to work best more or less level depending on the particular person. I'm kind of an older guy, find a slightly less aggressive position just fine and I can use my elbows and draw down when I need to get aero to keep my tail clear. I don't like it when people draft me. I don't get free air and neither do they. Let's face it everything we discuss here has something to do with competition, in my case just for fun.
Excellent video excellent table of contents excellent info.
Its all about how long you ride for. For half an hour I could ride saddle down and go really fast. Faster than with a level saddle! 6 hours of nose down though, and all of us would be in agony with numb shoulders and fingers. Of course, a saddle that is too high also HAS to be pointing down. The UCI has now allowed saddles to be nose down and interestingly most pro riders seem to have gone for it. But only by 5mm or so though. All of this in my humble opinion of course.
Well, you have to think about sliding forward and having to correct your position on the bike every 5 minutes. Also put more pressure on your legs to maintain position without having to slide back. I tried and doesn't work for me. Flat saddle keeps me where I need to be. If saddle is to high, then is going to affect your sags when going aero position.
Saddle angle is related to saddle height. Riders that point the nose down and forward are usually compensating for a saddle too high.
It's more likely due to aggressive positioning that forces hip rotation, requiring the angle to be sloped downwards. People with flat saddles often tilt them down to mimic a saddle with a kick up at the back that enables hip rotation.
Depending on the weight of the rider and the compliance of the seatpost/frame, a completely level saddle will actually be an upwards tilt when sat on the bike.
A lot of saddle/post clamps don't let u angle it forward/down.. I had to get a new clamp that would let me adjust the angle to what made me comfortable
So what adjustments should be made on my saddle if my taint(?) On either sides is so sore I can barely sit down without pain following a semi long ride?
***I'm not sure how else to describe or pinpoint the sore areas in my crotch region. Since there is diffrence in anatomical structures then I'm sure men are different than women in that musculoskeletal region of that area . Sorry if this seems like a dumb blonde question but I'm dead serious about the pain. It hurts! Please help me help my crotch not hurt so bad!!***
The only essay on the matter that makes any sense.
Most bike fitters on youtube are full of bs.
If you are properly balanced on the bike, with correct setback, stem and bar length/height and crank length, the the most comfortable saddle will be level.
Anything else and you have an issue with your fit.
A fit is a process and a level saddle is the final step. If you have saddle issues, get a good fit first, then try different saddles, but always level.
the only caveat to this is if you are pro with a ftp of 6wpk, then you won't have weight on your hands and saddle tilt really doesn't matter as much.
@@PeterPutz82 ftp.... 6wpk??? ssdd or byob??
9:00 should tell us what we need to know: just ride on the top tube and don't look ahead. What could go wrong?
I like mine about 2 - 3 degrees forward. It puts more weight on the ischiums and less on the soft tissue at the front. Also putting the you hands on the bars give a slight force vector backwards putting the force perpendicular to the tilted saddle. I ride fast, often with my forearms on the bars and have taken to putting my left ischium on the rivet i.e. sitting at the front so that I can sit on bony tissue rather than soft tissue. I have made this very comfortable in the time trial position through tissue hardening. I think I can still have babies lol
Constant riding with an aerodynamic posture puts a strain on the C5/C6 and C6/C7 neck joints, leading to compression at the rear of the discs. Eventually, at around age 45, you will get numb fingers as the bone impinges on the nerves. You will then end up with chronic incurable neck pain and constant visits to the osteopath.
For good aerodynamcs and ergonomics, recumbent cycling is the way to go.
In my experience, a forward tilted saddle puts pressure on the knee and causes knee pain.
everything causes me wrist and bum pain. For years. Never neck pain. and now L-2 and L-3 and L-4 pain
slightly tilted saddle just makes my fellows much more happier
Yes, there is an optimal angle for comfort & aero! It's called recumbent.
I have installed Selle SMP saddles on all my bicycles and I find that it depends on the individual because level works for me between three different disciplines. I put the SMP Hybrid on my adventure bike because I like to sit more vertically from time to time and in the drops it's comfortable, maybe a bit fat. The Stratos on my road and Cx is a better spinning saddle because it's leather and narrower, but the same shape as the other SMPs.
Hi my saddle points up , if it doesn't I feel like I am falling forward? I use a upright Dutch style E bike for heavy touring.
Thanks for the video, this is so much better than shit from GCN.
To make a long story short - make a bike fitting and use your power meter to find the influence of your position WRT to your saddle
do you think a pow?ermeter will be useful for tuning the saddle
Nice video.
For me, this was nice introduction to a topic I was not that aware of.
Thanks.
Freestyle BMX Riders use the seat to prevent cutting the private areas with the seat post,
they don't actually sit. that's why it's set so low and with a bit of tilt.
where should foot be on pedal: toes on pedal , middle of foot on pedal , or heel on pedal?
NO - Apologies this is a long video !!! - Great info you share, ... and some new input too... /// McRoman ... ;)
If you get the front of the saddle to low you will find it almost impossible to ride no handed. I know that some people don't ever want to ride with hands off of the bar.
I'm still not clear on how pros with stems slammed down on their front tires and seats tilted 45 degrees keep from paralyzing nerves in their hands.
maybe a good excuse for extra tramadol
joynthis
Years of adaptation .
joynthis
Because they have a costume their bodies to that ride position for years in small increments in order to allow the body to adapt to this position , they train 8 hr per week, making 30,000 kms per year.
sauza1984
Weigh distribution is very important to bike Handel in
60% of the total weigh at the back an 40% at the front ,
Its because they ride so fast (ie legs pushing down, which pushes body up) that there is still hardly any weight on hands (lucky bastards!)
Interesting that self selected ST angle is avg 78! I got custom frames built to 77 degrees and short HT 90mm because most bikes have 74 degrees and HT of about 120mm for my size (52cm TT). When I'm putting power down I ride with a flat back. My handlebar drop is about 17cm, sometimes 19cm without spacers. I don't know my saddle angle, but I've finely tuned it by feel, I guess it's about 10 deg down. Tip of the saddle is exactly over bb vertical line, that's UCI illegal for road races I guess, but no commissaire has ever measured it, I don't care. I haven't tried a tt saddle yet...
I cannot ride my bicycle with level seats... I must cant them downward. Level saddles crush my junk.
Another excellent video, cheers 👍
Really good topic and discussion.
Down with GCN
why do feel like i'm falling off the saddle when it's pointing down?
Probably pointing to much downwards
i feel like iam not locked on the saddle and i have to re-position.. but its more comfy...
can’t stand the constant repositioning.
I can’t help myself. I’ve got a enormous Brooks B190 saddle on my stretched beach cruiser. It’s noticeably tilted way up and it’s like sitting on a leather club chair. I know this is a completely different type of cycling but I felt a need to be a contrarian. Great video
I've tried so many things that didn't work that I've just concluded that my issues have nothing to with the seat. I think my problem stems from downward pressure from my internal organs into my perineum. I can ride without pain but the after effects are unacceptable. Guess it's a recumbent for me now.
I used to race of Bob Jackson when I was a kid
Year? Tubing?
@@continuousminer green and yellow Reynolds 531 straight gauge tubing 1975-78
...Get a 13" x 13" wide seat and lower it down ...Raise the handle bars up ...then sit back and enjoy!!
...Humpback bikes are a pain!!
A downward tilt means I can go 100 miles and my back is still smiling.
Question if I tilt my seat down let's say 15 degrees, is that not causing a sheer stress across skin on my butt and now that the contact space between my butt and the seat is smaller a lot more pressure in that area. Also, should I move the seat up slightly so that I am basically leaning on the seat instead of sitting on it? If I am new to tilting my seat should I increase the angle over time or combine it with my hip angle to achieve optimum performance right away? One last question what should my hip angle be at the top of the arc? Thank you for your time. I appreciate it very much.
Danny
The seat tilted forward also puts more strain on your arms to hold the forward sloping torso up which is pure wasted energy. Seat has to be level is a cycling commandment not a choice.
Seeing as the rear wheel is raised by the stand, won't that through the saddle angle measurement off?
Yes good point it is about 1 degree off...well spotted! Level the wheels for an accurate measure
Well, after you've decided on a saddle, why do you need the angle in degrees. Can't you just use a long straight edge on top of the saddle, and compare the angle by where the straight edge intersects or passes over the stem? With this merhod you decide to adjust the angle up or down by a amall amount and check the straight edge projection accordingly.
That Bob Jackson graphic is a spitting image of my 83 Holdsworth Professional!
Mine is. Slighttly pointing upwards its a mtb good for downhills ok
What an awesome Chanel ,brilliant
Great info. I'm trying to set a new seat/seat angle after having both hips replaced as my old setup now causes bad groin pain issues since the THR surgeries. Anyone have tips on setting up to prevent groin pain issues? I ride a mountain bike but, mostly on the road and with a cushy comfort seat. Experimenting is taking too much time as a ride that sets off the pain takes weeks to recover from.
Make sure to minize hip flexion by raising the handlebar and/or changing to shorter cranks
Ok Idk what’s wrong with me but I have the symptoms of a too tilted forward and backward saddle 😭
why is torso angle not working in calculator
Have to try this to believe it, cant seat angle down, so you sit on edge back of seat. No constriction, comfortable, after adjust height. My bike is a Gary fisher , seat is perfect fo steep angle.