Are You Riding With the Wrong Saddle Height? The Science
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- How much does your saddle height effect your cycling performance and how do you determine your optimal saddle height?
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Studies I used in this video:
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Dylan, I am the Executive Director of the Serotta International Cycling Institute. I just wanted to reach out and say that this was a great video. It’s tough to digest some of those older studies because there were often poor methods, small sample sizes, or untrained cyclists. With that said I think you summarized well and pulled the most relevant data. This was the first of your videos that I have seen but I will subscribe. Well done!!
Yeah! And I´m the Emperor of China LOL
@@Abnsdllnnlosnfd k
@@Abnsdllnnlosnfd haha lmao
Dylan, in your personal opinion which one is the best method?
Woooow, an Executive Director. In the USA there seems to be an inflation of titles to feed peoples small dick ego
I got to say Dylan, your backdrop videos are A+! Cam
Thought I saw you in there.
I've already gotten quite a few questions about how to measure the 25 degree knee angle. I should have explained it in the video. You want to measure your knee angle when it is fully extended, so the downward crank position. Technically in this position if you have a "25 degree" knee angle your actual knee angle with respect to your femur and tibia will be 155 degrees (180-25=155). All the studies I referenced and bike fitters use this angle when talking about knee angle. A goniometer will show you both (25 and 155). As many have mentioned a dynamic fit is better than a static fit. I talked about this at the end of the video. See a bike fitter who uses a dynamic fit system if you are unsure. Thanks for watching!
hey dylan! ran into your dad last week on the trails. hope all is well with you.
I am just wondering, unless you have a 90 straight seat tube with a seat mast/post (trek guy lol sorry) with zero off set, wouldnt the fully extended point be the point where the crank arm is lined up with the seat post?
To second @Sky Scraper, do you mean "pedal furthest from saddle" (which is 5-5:30 o'clock) or pedally directly downard (which is 6 o'clock)?
If the recommended range is 25-35 degrees, wouldn't 30 degrees be a better/safer/more conservative starting position and then adjust up or down as required?
i was fitted by the best fitter in town. My L and R knee angle happen to be 32 and 37, Do i need to lower it ?
Does “excessive discomfort on long rides” include getting dropped over and over? Asking for a friend....
lol
@ytesb I never get dropped I often gap the field and solo home. Whose to say gapping the field is the front of back?
I do “intentionally” drop lately, you know, for social distancing 🤔 😂
ahhaahha amazing :). oh wow....
My flawless technique for finding the correct saddle height is the one I call the "I bought the wrong size frame and ran out of seat post adjustment" method.
Ah, the my saddle moved itself back on the bumps so now I feel better but it's out of the scale method
Do a video on saddle positioning (forward and back)
+1!
I am way more curious about fore-aft than height
Yep. Why is a saddle on bike behind Dylan's back positioned maximally forward?
And does this affect optimal saddle height?
@@NiSePoet Nice
I've had way more success with the heel-on-the-pedal method than any other saddle adjustment method I've tried. (I actually tired the 109% method once, and seriously injured myself.) I like your straightforward, research-based videos. I don't always hear what I want to hear, but I almost always hear something useful.
I just wanted to add a little tip for measuring your knee angle. I took a small air bubble level and drew a near perfect straight line at the middle of my leg. Draw the line where you can clearly see it on the outside of your leg where the bending angle can be appreciated. I then drew angles from 25 to 35 on a piece of letter paper with a protractor and a ruler. While on the bike I had help holding the paper on my leg to see how far off from the angle range my knee was bending. It was really cool to see my leg falling within the range afterwards , at home and no money spent.
At the middle of the leg? Through the outside of the knee? While on the bike? I want to use your method, sounds really good but I can’t follow…
@@joselarrarte6964 yes to all
Timing is never been better than this.. really need this tips
It was simple to make a Goniometer device with a 23.5degree angle out of thick cardboard. This has helped me improve my comfort on the bike.
that's a great idea.
After watching a number of Dylan's videos, I wouldn't personally bother looking elsewhere for informed opinion. The unwavering focus on proper experimental study leads to credibility I've not seen elsewhere on YT. Thanks
Very good video. Thanks! I am surprised at how different knee angles are among pro cyclists. In the end, i am starting to believe that everyone needs to figure this out for themselves, without a bike fitter, because everyone has different confounding factors. Raising my saddle by ~1.5 cm stopped my knee pain. My knee angle might be off now technically, but i feel much better. Yes to small changes at a time!
Thanks for the advice Dylan. I set a new PR that stood for 6 years after dropping my post a bit.
What did you base the drop on ?
Dylan, Hello from Russia!
I have some minor comments on these studies. When you change the height of the saddle it's changes also the ett, the position of the knee above the pedal and much more. I came to the conclusion that the ideal height of the saddle is the height at which you do not experience pain behind the knee (saddle is too high) and in front of the knee (saddle is too low). Thanks for the video, a very useful channel!
!!!!!
Hmmm, this is why bike fitters are in business. There are many factors to a bike fit. Knee angle as a single parameter may get you in the ball park, but unlikely to dial in an accurate position as factors such as seat layback, foot angle (toe down/heel down), or even leg length discrepancies won't be indentified. Using generic bike fitting tools like Retul also only give a generic output. A bike fitter who takes into account your personal issues/measurements/ability will truly put you on the path to dial in a great position. At very least you will learn a lot and be able to adjust it yourself to fine tune. Fitting a non-symetrical human to a perfectly symentrical bike will always present challenges that a generic 'rule of thumb' cannot hope to solve.
It’s absolutely crazy how much of a difference a small adjustment in saddle height can make. I dropped mine .25” and my entire bike feels better and I feel stronger.
6mm
I have taken almost a full year to dial in my seat position. I always tell people when they make adjustments, not to exceed 2mm in movement and ride the bike at least 6x's for at least 10-20 miles each before making any other adjustments. Listen to your body, it will tell you if something isn't right.
That’s really extra
2mm......5 saves some time and is more noticeable.
If I need a rough fit I do the heel method and lower it 30 mm further. Then up 3 until it feels right.
I had a bike fit sometime ago but with the help of my coach recently, we discovered using a Moxy SmO2 sensor that my position was restricting oxygen flow in my muscles, and overloading my vastus lateralis (VL) muscles. With a slight adjustment in saddle height and moving the saddle forward, I've seen a big improvement, increased oxygen muscle uptake and better engagement of my hamstring and glute muscles - these had nodded off and allowed the VL to take-over. This suggests saddle height is dynamic to each person and there are other variables to consider. Great video as always Dylan.
Underaged comment right here. Good to know.
It’s well known that bike fitters nowadays for most non professional cyclists adjust saddle height too low on purpose so they don’t ride too fast and get tired quicker. It’s better for traffic safety and for rider’s safety as well.
"60% of the time, it works every time"
ha ha ha ha ha!
Seems almost impossible, but your videos get better and better. Thanks a lot for this one!
Superb vid, I've been seeing so much on saddle height, but this is the creme de la of them all, thank you so much!
It's crazy that I recognized all of the saddle height videos you included. #obsessed
Yikes. I’m impressed!
So did I
Pes Anserinus Injury
Thanks for this video!
Ive been off the bike for a couple of months but decided to start training again.
I had knee pain that crippled me from walking last week. After riding for 3 days in a row I eventually was finding it hard to even lift my leg in the air and it put me tollally off the bike. I went to the emergancy department because I had fliud siiting on my shin bone but my upper part of my bone was painful.
Turns out I have PES ANSERINUS INJURY!
Turns out my saddle was too hig by 1cm. My method was heel toe! How wrong I was!
I look back now over the years and I remember I get a dull ache from that part of my bone.
Wrong saddle height for years. Never happend on my MTB. Only road.
Cheers
Great video as always - here is my experience doing bike fits (side gig) for 9+ years: putting someone in the right position is more of an art than a science with the science part you have already established. 90% of the individuals would have their saddle too high, all would complain that they felt it was too low when I was done and 99% of them would refer me to friends after they got faster. I would not use static knee angle measurements because dynamic motion would allow some riders to extend to 150+ degrees with no hip rock and no ankling and others could not get past 140 degrees. Honorable mention to Tom Coleman, the mad genius that created Wobble-naught and Keith Bontrager for the Myth of KOPS (Knee over the pedal spindle)
So for saddle height you're essentially trying to get it to the maximum you can without causing hip rocking or excessive ankling?
I used to use a goniometer to adjust my saddle height. However, this is a static measurement. I now film myself on my trainer and then do screen captures and measure the angle on the computer screen. This gives a dynamic evaluation. I found a 5 degree difference between these measurements. This is a better method than the one you suggest.
I use the app ANGLE LETER to make the measurements!
Dylan, could your next video address saddle setback relative to the bb?! It’s be great to hear about the research on that subject in addition to how it correlates to appropriate reach.
I'd also be really interested in seeing a video on this.
Saddle height and saddle set back. The two go together. Pointless doing one with the other
Great video. First 3 seconds were the best. I thought I was the only one who ran his saddle as far forward as it was physically possible. Next video should be fore and aft position. Another interesting topic could also be "how to select easy targets to drop while on the bikepath"
Tried putting my saddle as far forward as possible for two weeks while maintaining proper seat height, it just caused knee pain for me. Plumb-bob method still produced the best results for me when it comes to long ride comfort.
It's more efficient. There's a study of triathletes that found a 70 second improvement on the bike leg, by moving the seat as far forward as possible. Best position (not UCI legal) is a higher seat position than is recommended by Dylan, but with a 20-30 degree angke on the seat, so that being on the front of the saddle is in the correctvrange and that the slpe thriws you into a more aero position without stressing your pereneum.
Great, well researched video!! Must have been an awful lot of tedious work going through all these papers and sources
Nice work man... Keep it up!
Actually, Dylan AND BHD are correct regarding knee angle and factoring in men's, um, equipment, because the angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat!
Or the mass of the …
The heel-on-pedal (without a shoe) will get you close and then a goniometer can be used to measure the angle, but dynamic fit measurement is really the best approach. For dynamic analysis at home I like Bike Fit Fast and Kinovea.
That'll be too low when you wear shoes doesn't it?
Great video Dylan. I am similar to you in that I like my saddle further forward, especially on these bikes with slacker seat tube angles. Not sure if there is enough science out there on saddle setback but that would be a cool video. Don't worry, I won't get mad if you don't use my idea lol.
I looked into it for this video actually. Unfortunately there is not a lot.
I could be wrong but I believe the further forward you sit the higher your saddle could/should be. Be interesting to see how that relates to knee angle.
@@patrickoshea9398 yeah you have to raise the saddle to keep the same knee angle and lower when going back. Be interesting to see if other muscles are engaged or not.
@@patrickoshea9398 From a purely geometric perspective, when you move your saddle forward you aren't just moving your hips forward, you are rotating the hip to pedal vector forward, creating an arc where your hips are. If you move the saddle forward without adjusting height, you're tracing a chord inside the arc of where you should be moving.
Everything rotates when you move forward, by the way, so you can *possibly* reduce the stack height on your headset while keeping your hip, shoulder, and elbow angles constant. A professional bike fitter should be able to help you out with that.
UCI regs on saddle position apply if you plan on riding in UCI sanctioned events.
@@DylanJohnsonCycling is there any science on the effect of wind resistance on how you sit on the saddle? Maybe some takeaways on saddle positioning on this?
This was a great video showcasing different studies. But what I've learned every study should be taken as something static. Not definite. You can crunch numbers and research study after study. At the end of the day your ultimate fit will come down to how you feel. You have to ride. And pay attention to subtle differences in your position on the bike. Every micro adjustment should go into making you more comfortable and therefore more powerful on the bike.
Perhaps backwards-hat Dylan's finest episode yet
Funny thing about dialing in your saddle is that, for me at least, it changes depending upon what type of riding I'm doing. When I'm hammering through intervals or racing on Zwift I always find myself sliding forward, so I move the saddle a bit closer to the bar. But when I'm doing endurance work I feel too crunched up and want to move the saddle back again for better balance over the BB. I wish some manufacturer would devise a "quick adjust" saddle for varied riding styles. It also doesn't help when saddles these days come in so many shapes and sizes and firmness levels.
just get a long, narrow saddle and move around, works for me
One other thing to notice about pro riders. When taking a tight corner, the outside leg is STRAIGHT, weighting the pedal, with the sole of the foot parallel to the ground. Is this your position in corners?
Who's ordering a goniometer now?
I'm looking at which app can do that, and if none is suitable I'm gonna make one!
I think this will work fine for it www.motionysis.com/video/ and this is a link to the tutorial ruclips.net/video/1N4zUEh5Khw/видео.html
No one needs one of those. Just snap a picture and measure on the computer and you've saved $10. Not that I buy into the fitting thing at all.
Started riding in 2013, got a goniometer in 2015, and have been going with 30 degrees ever since. I can't do 25 as I have leg length discrepancy. One thing I'd like to clarify, the knee angle is at the bottom of the pedal stroke aka 6 o'clock.
veloriderkm: Thx. Was going read one of the cited articles when I had time to find the definition of the angle. Now I don’t have to.
you are from america and you use centimetres as length unit?! didn't expect that coming. thanks for the video - great, science based explanation as usually! #kudos 😎🤙🏻🎉🚵🏻
Thanks for the great video, I've been riding for ages and setting saddle height to the heel on the pedal thang...not the most scientific method but has worked far better than either Hinault/LeMond method or the 109% one, the latter should be buried, it sets saddle height far too high... Keep up the great content!
Heel barely touching the top of the pedal is my method. It also quickly shows fore & aft saddle position.
Cleat position affects saddle height too...
Thanks for the video. The only question remaining is what crank position do you measure the knee angle in?
Ooops, should have mentioned that. Measure when your knee is fully extended so the downward position.
@@DylanJohnsonCycling Thank you so much! Love your videos.
Six o’clock
@@korsveien Full extended - so more like 5:30 along the slope of the seat tube
so, is it straight down/6:00/Drop Dead Center or aligned with seat tube? I trust DJ.
Awesome content. Also Cade footage nice
Thanks for the great article and summarizing my question on saddle height.
Crushed it! Great job!
The problem with Retul is that most bike shops don't actually know how to use it properly. I've had two retul bike fits in Australia and both put me in a bad position and cost me hundreds of dollars. At the end of the day my own body awareness and research has put me in a good position. Steve Hogg also is an old school awesome bike fitter that doesn't use basic angle software to tell them your position but uses his own eyes. Someone that knows what to look for and watch you on the bike is the best way if you're lucky enough to have access to it.
Dylan, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and putting these great videos online.
But seriously now. Saddle height, while extremely important is only part of the equation, having a really good estimate of saddle height goes out the window if your reach or fore-aft saddle position are wrong. While you might be able to produce optimal power for 15 seconds due to a perfect saddle height, a cycling position where you are uncomfortable would lead to greater fatigue resulting in power drops, specially during long events. Who wants to see a video on bike fit? Upvote
Here are the 2 main pitfalls I would call on this.
1- Static gomiometer measurement of knee angle is notoriously inconsistant. One study showed that the static measurement of the knee angle is off (more extended) by, on average, 5.4 degrees (+-2) to the actual real knee angle when pedaling and measured with a dynamic method (video or motion capture).
www.jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/view/94
So a takeaway of this is that the references with both methods must be recalibrated. So, the 25-35 degrees measured with a goniometer will be mesaured at around 30-40 degrees on a real dynamic setup with a video capture or motion capture (just to clarify to those who might try to aim for 25 degrees with a video app and get their saddle hight wayyyy too high).
2- Most of the studies who claim that the 25 degrees offered the best results are conducted on short maximum power protocols (like a VO2max test). Those tests will favor a higher saddle height because of it's relatively short and high intensity nature where the rocking of the pelvis and upper body will help generate those extra watts for the time requested. But, as you go for longer duration efforts this instability reduces gross efficiency (as you quoted from other studies) and the high 25 degrees saddle height becomes less ideal as the loss of gross efficiency greater than the max power gains (not to mention saddle issues and lumbar spine problems). A lot of studies point to many different ''ideal angles'', but the general modern scientific consensus tends more towards the 32-42 degrees range measured dynamically and that more extended is not ''better''.
You can have a look at pro riders, that most would point out as having great flexibility and physiology to be able to reach a greater leg extension to generate more power, right? Well a study recorded the knee flexion angle of 40 Worldtour riders (Cycling Science, Cheung and Zabala, 2017) and the average was.....36.7 degrees (+-4). This means that the angles ranged from 32.7 to 40.7 degrees. You can see that despite the wide range of angles, it is no where near the 25 degrees described as ''ideal''. Even if we recalibrate with the 5 degrees of error that a goniometer normaly produces, we are getting closer but still not even ''in range''.
From my experience, 25 degrees of knee flexion will be too high for the vast majority of riders and not something you should ''aim for''. For advanced bikefits, the joint angle method of bike fitting is slowly loosing ground anyway for more dynamic methods like the analysis of the movement of the pelvis (wearable motion sensors or pressure mapping). It is still monitored, but not the main (sometimes sole) guiding parameter it used to be.
That being said, the goniometer method is a great and easy way to get a ballpark neutral position that will suit many people and this should be treated this way, not as a generic precise number that ends up being the driving parameter of the fit. But most should aim more towards the 30-35+ degrees range.
i have the possibility to measure it dynamic by myself, what would you recommend then?
I just dropped my saddle there seems to have very few adverse effects when it's too low
@@minervali631 Actually, If you lose performance with a saddle that is ''too low'' is more than likely that the actual resaon has more to do with aerodynamics than with power production. A lower saddle may restrict a little bit more your hability to rotate your pelvis introvertly (more forward and low) because your upper leg travels closer to your upper body when the pedal is at top dead center, restricting the mobility of the pelvis (thus whole uper body) to rotate forward and get low and aero..
@@simonsimon8213 General guidelines are now around the 32-40 degrees when measured by a dynamic method. That being said, it is still a broad range and for good reasons, because the ''ideal'' angle can greatly vary between individuals. Also, I take issue in talking about knee flexion angle as a precise single number, because for the same cyclist with the same fit coordinates, this angle will vary with any variation of power output, cadence, fatigue, posture, etc. Cycling is a dynamic sport and a lot of bikefit methods are very static (like the goniometer method for exemple). Knee flexion angle might be checked in a bike fit, but is should not be seen as the primary (a lot of time sole) metric for defining proper saddle height as way too many people (and fitters) do. Ankle movement is just as important and pelvis stability is, in my opinion, a more important metric to look at than knee flexion angle. But I get that pelvis stability and movement just can't be easily or properly quantyfied without much more advanced tools.
@@martinturgeon1122 thank you
Thanks Dylan. Another saddle height video thats clear as mud🙃
Incredible video. Super helpful. Thank you very much.
Three years ago my bike fit was done by knee angle and I've never looked back. I do annual 'bike fit check ups' and get my cleats sorted. Knee pain no more
Great video. Just a few weeks ago I was having some back pain and couldn't figure it out. I thought I was lowering my saddle enough, but it just didn't "feel" right. Eventually, I went in to a bike fitter and he dropped my saddle about a full 2 inches. I felt like an absolute midget riding for the next few days, but after enough time, ended up producing more power, felt more comfortable, and the back pain has almost completely gone away due to this change
Interesting! Which method were used before you went down 2 full inches? 109%?
It’s well known that bike fitters nowadays for most non professional cyclists adjust saddle height too low on purpose so they don’t ride too fast and get tired quicker. It’s better for traffic safety and for rider’s safety as well.
@@tongotongo3143 is this really well known? Where did you hear it? Very interesting
You cant just look at your knee angle. If you raise your saddle it can occur for some people that their ankle will adapt to the new position. Bikefit adviser has a good video on this topic. Great video btw :)
25 Degree Knee angle with a Goniometer for the win! Take into account proper foot placement. Make sure to not get the Gonadometer... that's a different measuring stick.
I always go as high as I can without my hips rocking side to side. It’s much easier to do it off of the feeling than taking measurements. Go up until your hips rock, then back down right until they don’t anymore.
And somewhere I stumbled on some less sophisticated rule:If you get pain on the front of the knee, the saddle is probably too low. Pain on the back of the knee means it's too high. Unfortunately it mostly traded knee pain for other pain, because raising the saddle until the knee pain was gone put it way too high...
This is an interesting topic. And the opinions vary.
Two common thoughts about sadle height is: 1: that the the leg shall be hanging straight with the heel just touching the pedal, 2: that the leg shall be slightly bent.
Once I noticed that I had the height so the leg was slightly bent and raised it a cm so the leg was straight free hanging with the heel just barely touched the pedal. That felt better and I perceived I got more power.
I don't know what is correct. I find this a bit complicated but may give a more advanced measuring a try later.
This variance in the knee angle you talk about can change depending on the crank length one uses. This particularly evident at the top of the stroke.
Great vid, legend!!!!
Have you ever considered reviewing mid-foot cleat set up? I have custom adaptor plates to run my cleats 30mm further back than the shoe allows. My bike fitter did this and it resolved my anterior knee issue. I’ve also caught up with Adam Hansen in the past (family friends) and had a good look at his custom shoes. While he doesn’t do it to prevent injury he has an interesting take on this set up and why he rides cleats that way 👍🏼
@5:40 - What you're packing, affects your stacking.
😋👌🏆
Only applies to half of the population.
Please make a follow up about saddle fore/aft “finding the balance point between aggressive and comfortable”
Even leaving aside fore/aft adjustment, shoe/cleat/crank length/saddle shape variables can easily account for ~5% difference...so every case is unique, even for individual riders switching shoes, pedals, saddles. It was heartening to hear that, as with tire pressure, "lower is better" (to a degree) is a reasonable rule of thumb...turns out that, contrary to decades of received "wisdom," we didn't all need to have our tires as hard as rocks and our saddles shoved up our asses for years.
"If you need to lower the saddle 3cm" ... 3cm? well, if someone needs to lower 3cm, he probably should change sport :-) a comfort zone is no wider than 5mm, my larger possible height adjustment is 2mm. I cannot imagine being 3cm out. In my opinion, saddle height should be the outcome of experience and feelings, not from formulas. after some years you end up with a position that is just the best for you. moreover, one important info is missing: I agree that a too high saddle ruins performance. but a saddle that is too low, is even worse because it produces bad knee injuries. Great video, thanks
Exactly what I was thinking...like 3cmm????? No way.
thank you so much for this video
Thanks so so so much for researching this
Your channel is awesome.
I had a bike fit done about... 4 months ago... And I was thinking that the fitter was gonna use those fancy lasers and stuff!!! Well, he did not, instead he had these metal rulers that bend in half giving him distance and angle of the joint!!! Took us 3 hours or so to complete the whole fit. And I can assure you that, spending that 200 dollars on the fit was the best investment I've made in cycling so far.
Or you can: 1)bike on trainer 2)video record yourself pedaling with phone 3)playback and hit "pause" on downstroke 4)screenshot 5)bring screenshot up on "image meter" app (android) 6)measure your knee angle using the app. Adjust and record seat height with tape measure + a piece of tape on seat post.
Or mark seat post with a silver sharpie.
I just mount my bike on the turbo trainer. Then make changes of about 2cm each time, either higher or lower to find the most comfortable pedalling position and one that feels strongest.
Frankly I position my saddle up-down and fore-aft for comfort as well as feeling of balance on the bike (hard to nail down, but feel it in corners). Pedalling is dynamic, and foot position changes depending what we are doing and with fatigue, so a goniometer measurement will result in different angles than videoing yourself easily spinning on the trainer, which is again not going to be same as when you've been going hard for a while. Additionally, we change position on the saddle fore-aft depending on gradient and how hard we are going which is going to have a big influence on knee angle.
The big confusion factor is also how precisely they measure: measuring saddle height for instance I get different results if I measure along the seat tube to the top, or through the seat clamp rivet which lends itself to repeatability, or if I measure to the center of the saddle, or to where my sit bones actually are. Without precise details how height or knee angle are measured in the studies, their findings may not be useful for us.
Besides, an improper knee angle could be the result of bad cleat position, which will impact ankle angle while pedaling, which will have a potentially big influence on knee angle without the saddle position changing one bit. You could go to entirely wrong places fixating on saddle height.
More great information - THANKS !!!!
a simple check get someone to follow you on a ride and possibly film you, if you watch a rider from the back over rotating the hips is a good sign your saddle is to high, its really obvious to see, but not always feel, especially if you have got use to riding that way.
Or could be a leg length difference!
I adjust so that my knee is almost but not quite straight when I am at the bottom of a power stroke with whatever cranks, pedals, shoes, and clips I have at the time. Naturally, this is the last adjust I make. I have really long legs for a 6' tall guy so I can almost never get cranks long enough without risking the pedals clipping the ground, so I often have to settle for shorter than optimum cranks. Therefore, if I adjusted for recommended knee angle at the top of my stroke, I would still have too much bend at the bottom of my stroke.
Now, I am (was) a super-high-cadence rider (100-210 RPM) who applies force through the entire 360 degrees of the stroller, so my adjustments are designed to accommodate that. In the end, I go with what feels best when I'm powering up a hill at 210 RPM while still in the saddle.
Hey dylan, amazing video I really needed this. Ill even put on another sadle. Also one thing I have been doubting about my mtb lately is the positition of the bars, height the angle on it and even how wide they need to be.
The bar width on many new mnt bikes is to wide, 31 inches? Thats for a moto bike with a motor, or wide shouldered people on a pedal bike. . ..But the closer the bar (compact frame or short stem) allows a wider bar during cornering. If turning the bar while sitting makes you move forward off the seat, your frame or stem are too long or your bars are to wide. For a flat bar mnt bike, a good place to try is your outer shoulder width plus 6-7 inches. The wider the tire, the more width too, narrower, the less. Just try holding on the bar in different widths on a mowed lawn. Outer edge of grips to even inboard of the grips as trial. Too narrow or too wide is also hard on the wrist. Back sweep is another thing. Most mnt bars have minimal backsweep, a moto bike has a little more. The Jones (?) mnt touring bars look interesting, people like them, they have a lot of backsweep, not like an old three speed but still a lot..
This video helped me realize that my saddle height was much higher than it needs to be. As I changed out my seatpost for a different one I intentionally set my saddle lower than what I had it at before changing seatpost (I didn't measure beforehand so I didn't even remember lol), and after dialing things in without over doing it I was amazed by how much my comfort, cadence, and handling improved. It felt like I was riding a different bike since with the higher saddle I felt more on-top of the bike and with the lower saddle I felt like I was "inside" the bike. Considering I'm running a gravel bike, these changes will make me want to ride more and longer, which is partially why I got the bike in the first place lol.
TL:DR - Glad this video encouraged me to lower my saddle, and I'll be riding more because of it!
That’s why I’m not pleased with my current MTB. I feel like I sit on top of it, not in the bike. With my old Gary Fisher I sat in the bike not on top of it. Guy at the bike store didn’t know how to respond to that other than your new bike is better...
I love you channel, Dylan! Just a humble suggestion: use longer pauses in your speech, specially when talking about complex parts that need some time to be digested, switching topics or when some emphasis is desired. It gets a little overwhelming and I have to make an effort to keep up with you (even more pronounced for non-native English speakers).
Hit pause.
Awesome vid! Next Vid: Saddle tilt
Would it not be better to record a video a person cycling and then calculate the kneed angle from a screen shot? Seems wrong to use a static position to calculate dynamic needs
thanks for doing this, Dylan! Backwards Hat Method - LOL
Great information. At 10 mins you touched on for/aft. I can’t find an episode of yours addressing this. I mention it because your saddle is soooo far forward. All the way in fact. I think this is why you are very upright on your bike and have a short stem. It might let you push down harder (more weight over the pedal?)It is clearly working for you, as you achieve top results. Is this a trade or racing secret you want to keep to your self? Even if there are not many studies on this for you to reduce, I think your personal opinion and findings on for/aft, and how you arrived at saddle all the way forward, would be interesting. At least to me.
I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike...
I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position.
I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate).
In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually.
Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front).
I even have a 110mm long stem.
The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position).
Issue is...
If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension.
I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm.
Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...
I hate saddle height
Knee angle, makes sense I guess, because you want your legs to be straight enough to develop power, but the pedal close enough so that you can deliver the power.
Something's backwards here. A taller saddle position will result in a narrower knee angle not one closer to 30° as implied in the video.
Best I’ve seen. Thanks
@Dylan. I think we can all agree that the Enve 2 bolt seaport sucks for making adjustments to tilt.
For years I was riding with my saddle too high. Toe pain, saddle sores etc. etc.. Every time I would lower it my legs/knees wound not feel right when riding and I would think it was too low, not knowing that I needed to give my body time to adjust. I recently used the 109% method which revealed I needed to go even lower, my inseam is only 30”. After a week or two of my legs getting used to it I feel absolutely great and wish I would’ve figured this out long ago.
Last week I lowered my saddle height .75 cm. When lowering a saddle height the acclamation is much quicker than raising the saddle height. I really feel like I can put more power to my pedals especially on the downstroke. Three quarters of a centimeter may not change the knee angle enough to reliably measure with one of those giant protractors but it does feel like I am riding a child’s bike now.
another way i find useful to adjust saddle height is by putting the saddle up as much as i can sit on it with the clamp semi loose (so it wont go up or down unless you properly press on it) then i go on a climb and adjust as necessary
Great video. Seriously surprised. When I did the heel down test (3rd time) I did both legs instead of just left. I found my right leg was shorter so I had been reaching too far on that side thereby causing chafing and probably loss of power. Dropped saddle by about 8- 10 mm and now much better feel. Thanks!
Struggling with that uncut steerer tube in the background
I use the old method of trial and error. I set my seat where my leg is not fully extended and i go ride it on a MTB trail that has varied terrain. If im able to do all the obstacles comfortably and in control without fatigue, then i leave it where it is. I always take allen keys with me in case i need to tweak it. Come to think of it, mine has been the same for well over a year now with no adjustments. 👍
Having recently had a bike fit by a highly experienced and highly regarded fitter, he did not measure my leg length or knee angle once during the 3 hours. All done by observation of the level of control I had over the pedal stroke. he dropped my seat by 23mm. The pearl of wisdom he passed on was the ideal seat height for any individual is when all three muscle groups being quads, hamstrings and glutes are equally fatigued after a ride. If your quads are sore but not your glutes or hamstrings your seat is too high.
Yes, that's me. I never feel like my glutes have exercised much, and according to all 3 measurement rules (inseam - 10cm or 0.883 * inseam to BB, or 109% of inseam to pedal axle) my seat is 4 cm too high!
Just ordered a goniometer on eBay; had to beat the rush.
Its not just performance, its also about minimizing pain/discomfort. Raising or lowing your seat even 10mm several times on longer rides makes a huge different. You dont want a target seat height, you want a range. A range tested and proven by yourself. Fifty years in the saddle and Im starting to figure it out. Toss that post bolt and get a quick release if you dont have one already. Body wear and tear / injuries will also help decide whats best for you. Experiment. Being in any bike position for a long time and repeated every ride is not good. Better yet, have many bikes, dont need all new ones. Invest in a simple bubble protractor from the hardware isle for seat angle,. take pics..
I have a less scientific method.
Get a piece of blue painters tape. Set your saddle height so that your down pedal stroke is fully extended then put a slight bend in your knee (slight, not X degree or y degree, just slight). Ride your bike...a lot...with an allen wrench in your jersey. Put in a few miles, raise it, move the tape, repeat. Adjust it starting out in cm's then once you dial that in, tweak it by as much as an eyelash's thickness. It'll take a few trips out, but once you hit that sweet spot, it's magic. And every saddle & pedal combination will be different. But this is the easiest way I've found how. Let your body tell you what it wants.
In describing things you are talking about knee angle. I believe you mean the knee angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I guess that is important for the pulling back of the pedal stroke and safety for the ligaments and tendons that cross the back of the knee. But it would be interesting to find out how or if a bike fitter is also looking at knee angle at the top of the stroke. To me, this would seem to be important. If the knee is too high and the degree of flexion in the knee joint is excessive, pressing down would add more shearing force the the articular cartilage on the gliding surfaces of the knee joint and it would also reduce the mechanical advantage of the quads pushing down. If the knee is not high enough at the top of the pedal stroke it would be safe but this would also reduce the mechanical advantage of the down stroke on the pedal.
So, my question is, why is so much of the focus on the angle of the knee at the bottom of the pedal stroke when it would seem the angle at the top would be at least as important and since the length ratio between the upper leg and lower leg varies a decent amount between people, you could have two people with the same inseam length where, one person's knee is higher and more flexed at the top of the pedal stroke (longer lower-leg) and another person's knee is lower (shorter lower-leg) with the same knee angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke?
What's up my friend? How I use to tackle this problem is with a full extension of the leg with a slight bend in the knee depending on the personal riding habit of the rider. But, their should be a slight bend in the knee on the long stroke of the peddle. No special measuring devices or scales. All trial and error. There is too many things going on here. Leg length and shoe size for one. And the list goes on and on. Trial and error, that's it! Peace.
Good info as usual
Can you do a video on the research that's been done around how fast a person loses fitness? For example if you have an injury or sickness that requires 2 weeks completely off the bike, are you losing aerobic/anaerobic capacity or anything like that? Thanks man!