Proper saddle height and position is indeed a must in riding. Also don't forget to consider the right saddle, to fully optimize the balance on power transfer and comfort.
Yeah, Matt Bottrell on my TT bike specifically for ironman. Combined with replacing the front end poles the entire package made a lot of difference. It was quite specific for long distance, but didn't seem to make much concession to comfort.
I did DIY fit. Bought a guide written by a bikefitter, webcam and downloaded (free) software to record and measure my joint angles. Very enlightening process. Just to know the numbers and principles of bikefit is vital information to understand anything about bikefit. Before that i just adjusted something and had no idea how it would affect everything else. If i was able to resolve some issue it was pure change. What even most basic bikefit does is set bike into certain set-state and give you numbers on it. From there on you can do adjustments and have something to fall back into if things go bad.
I’d volunteer but the cost to ship me and my bike to the uk. The us to the uk trip might be a bit pricey. Jokes aside yea I agree. All my by 2 new bike in 20 years maybe to big I don’t have a saddle higher then my bars . But I’m comfortable for 30 to 40 miles. But I bet I’d benefit from a proper fit
@niallshakeshaft1524’s-comment/post “I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video nonetheless the less!”: A ex-pro = someone who has been-through professional-level bike-races. That’s the-only-difference between Si and alot-of-us. They’re (ie. Professional-cyclists and Semi-pros and Retired-pros) just People, just like us.
I am a seasoned cyclist, 68 y.o. although in denial ;-) and converted to 165mm cranks and couldn't be happier. We lose our hip flexion with age. I rode 175 cranks for decades...I am exactly the same size as Simon...same arm and leg length...same 186cm height aka 6'1"...I am American. This bike fitter is impressively smart. Crank length changes gearing and not speed. I in fact asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and he said the same thing. In fact, most can turn a higher RPM on shorter cranks more comfortably which makes power generation at steady state faster because Power is proportional to RPM with same pedal force. Simon is a great cyclist. Better than 99% who do it and yet, look how open minded he is to his saddle height and setback. Me too and I have been at it longer than Simon. Saddle height is extremely nuanced...how aggresive you ride and how closed your hip angle and how much you ankle...Simon ankles more than me even though I tend to toe point a bit like Simon. I largely adjust saddle height based upon feel and eye toward knee angle at bottom of the pedal stroke. Don't fall in love with your saddle height. There maybe a better saddle height and setback for you.
All of this is just a science of belief. The same like while ago was believed that 25mm tires were the most optimal for Tour de France and today scientifically believed that 32mm are the most optimal. The same like it was scientifically believed that chicken eggs rises cholesterol, and today’s scientific belief states that chicken eggs actually reduce cholesterol.
@@tongotongo3143 Well said. As many things in life if waxing philosophic. Take saddle to bar drop. Greater bar drop closes the hip angle. Hip angle relates to crank length and saddle height including setback. A giant, insoluble puzzle subject to interpretation. Consider a highly optimized TdF rider. Why doesn't every single TdF rider ride with 1 full inch more saddle to handlebar drop? Aerodynamics are king on a racing bike. Less rider frontal area typically translates into greater speed...until it doesn't. When are drops rendered unusable? Why did 7 TdF winner Lance Armstrong...they all doped...why did Lance ride with only 75mm of saddle to bar drop and rode one size up from his average height a 58cm? Because he was faster on that bike will open hip angle and more stretched out. There is no ideal formula for bike fit or saddle height. The Lemond formula doesn't work for many including me.
It’s pleasure to meet a wise man these days. Yes, Le Mond formula isn’t the most optimal for me either. There are other better formulas, but all of them, and people who implement them, do not talk about the fact that when a real alive human body sits on a bicycle, the saddle collapses from 5mm up to 1cm, and the shoe sole also brings from 6mm up to 1cm variable! Those together can bring almost up to 2 cm difference, and this is a lot. My believe is, the best saddle height adjustment is to sit very straight on a saddle with your shoes on, and rise your saddle very precisely up until your shoes’ heels just barely touch the pedal when your leg is fully extended. Shoes on and leg fully extended are the key moments.
@@tongotongo3143 with all that said just get a bike fit to take out the guessing game. Plain and simple. Not many cyclists even the seasoned one have great body awareness.
It’s nothing to do with body awareness. I have developed my own saddle height formula based on human biomechanics and mathematics. But for ordinary people I just explain it more simple ways.
Si is a great presenter, kept asking good questions which made this video a lot better than other bike fit videos I have watched! Keep rocking the glasses!
I also think Si genuinely was interested in knowing these things as well. Understanding why he was making these changes. All useful information to have as a cyclist.
I'm curious as to why this wasn't tested at a threshold load. I find that saddle height affects my muscle recruitment a lot at higher loads; mainly not being able to use my glutes/hamstrings when the saddle height is wrong. It's hard to feel that when pedaling at a low effort.
Great video! This inspired me to check on my position, carried out the Lemond method, raised saddle by almost 1cm, moved saddle forwards, went out for a 30 mile ride. The difference in comfort and power output was incredible, felt more "in charge of my bike", if that makes sense! It's a reminder that we always need to review our set up every now and again, and don't be afraid to experiment as long as you record the changes you make.
I have a touring bike for outside the city, and a 1966 foldable 24 inch steel bike with short crancks for the shorter trips in the city. On this city bike I get to most places I need to go throuhghout the week. I put the saddle on my city-bike about an inch down, to see what it does to my legs. So my shorter trips I ride with a lower saddle with two gears with bent knees. I have the impression that this way my quads are getting stronger because they are doing work in different positions. I have started doing this because I think this helps with Ice Skating. I allso feel stronger on my touring bike when riding uphill. More torque in motorists words.
A really good video and you know why? Because Si was actually going through that fit and asked all the questions he genuinely had, this is what makes it so interesting. Not a polished version of ‘what-can-learn-when-you-go-to-a-bike-fit’. I really, really enjoyed this video - thank you Si.
I begin to say sorry for my bad english 😊. Thanks for this episode. It made me raise my saddle 1cm. Have been riding with the new saddle height since this episode came out. What I have noticed is that I am less fatigued in my inner or lower quads. I was a bit afraid that I would get pain in my knees. I also noticed that I can push myself more. So thanks 😊
Great video ... your bike fitter guest was a bit hard to understand, even as a native English speaker. I plugged some of his audio into a speech recognition system and even Google couldn't understand much of what your man spoke.
The higher the better, like standing but without you holding up your weight. How much weight on your arms, problem most people have is the raise their Sadler’s without realising it’s probably moving their saddle back, then it changing which legs muscles you use and again changes weight on your arms. Also the length of your cranks and where you put your cleats all change everything. It also depends if you want power in the tops, hoods or drops. It could easily drive you crazy. Sitting back let’s your hamstrings pull back more. I have done this as I was using my quads and nearly no hamstrings apart from in hills which moves your saddle back.🙈🙈🙈 Pros aren’t necessary in the perfect position but they have trained their body in that position so it feels right. Longer crank lengths of give you more power out if the saddle. Lower revs are better for stress on your body(longer cranks). I again can pull back more on longer cranks, it can go back to which position you are going to ride in
My saddle is so high that I have less than an inch of post in my frame, a frame btw my fitter said was too big for me by .5 cm. Fitters are crazy. My seat is back a little, with a slight downslope. This is perfect for me for long rides with variable wind directions. I drop the saddle on certain rides that demand more clearance for my bum when out of the saddle (twisty, technical routes for example.) But for long slogs that include cross and headwinds, I sit high so when I'm in the drops, I'm aero. The ride matters. There is no perfect saddle height, only one that feels good, and that feel good feeling varies by route.
I'm a fan of trying to get things in the ball park on a trainer, then going for a ride with a multi tool and making slight adjustments based on real world riding feel. That to me creates the "perfect" fit.
I had a Retül bike fit once and it was too high- gave me knee pain. The rest felt very snake oil salesman like. Get your rich client in, take £1000 off them, make them feel special for a couple of hours, name drop the yellow jerseys, sell them some over priced bike parts and then send them off with the bike fit they came in with 🤣
I'm sure I'm way off base here, but wow this felt like a snake oil salesman talking fast, saying things, and getting his audience to agree so as not to feel dumb but really nothing was really said. Nothing about this felt scientific and the quick pan to the numbers to make it seem like it was without actually letting the viewers see or REALLY describing their meaning and effect felt like everything was playing into the salesman's pitch. Generally really enjoy GCN and I'm sure getting a bike fit could be super helpful, and surely this man is very bright, but dang! That whole video left a really bad taste in my mouth.
yeah I would say other than learning proper saddle width, seat height, and cleat placement, most other things on a fit are up to rider preference. the whole Retül high tech fit is fun to look at, but you can get just as good of a fit with way cheaper equipment. with that being said I do think getting fitted, even by a guy like this, at least once is a good thing. but after that initial fit you know your measurements and can setup your own bikes easier in the future.
I have had the best luck using a variation of the Lemond method called the 109% method. The logic is that the 88% measurement to the bottom bracket in the Lemond does not take into account crank length. So multiply your inseam in cm by 1.09 and instead of measuring to the bottom bracket instead measure to the spindle of the pedal. This is very useful for me as I currently have different length cranks on one of my favorite bikes. I've been much happier since I started using this method.
i have my bike fit last year using Idmatch bikelab.. according to the assessment of the bike fitter my saddle height should be around 67,8cm.. i tried riding with it but i never get used to it coz it felt very high.. dropped it by 1 cm and it became very comfortable :)..
I definitely appreciate Simon trying to extract as much info as he could from Phil. I'm not sure this video actually helps me any more than any of the other saddle height videos, though I was excited to watch 27 minutes on saddle height. I know I've fallen into the trap of paying attention to the numbers, like using formulas and thinking about where my saddle "should" be, even though the formulas usually put it higher for me than is comfortable. Kinetic cycle (youtube) recommends heel on pedal with NO SHOES then going down 3-5mm and starting there, AND basing it on the shortest (physically or functionally) of your legs as you sit comfortably on the saddle, without dropping hip to get heel to pedal. Based on where Simon's heel was when he started this video, that would leave a good 3cm gap between his foot and the pedal. Quite a huge difference, and again speaks to the idea that there is a range of saddle heights for any person. I believe tending towards the low end of the range is best for me anyway, but someone else could feel different. Saddle height is definitely a cycling rabbit hole that I think people shouldn't mess with unless they are having pain.
There was a wonderfully positive frustration sitting underneath this conversation. The tension of two completely valid and correct points of view interacting and layering on top of each other, laying foundations to explore new and improved territory.
Great video. I recently went through a bike fit that utilised the Retul system and it was an excellent experience that addressed back strain I would regularly get about 45 min into the ride.
I would be dissapointed with that fitting, expecting the fitter to fit me to the bike. If he is just listen to me on how i feel, i could the fitting by myself and find my own position. As he is saying "the body could adapt" i would like him to fit me, prevent me from injuries, even it feels strange at the first time until i adapt to the new postion...
Same observation here... I'd be running away from a fitter who is looking more at the raw numbers on the screen rather than watching my pedalling dynamics and how the body moves.
I know there are a few watts to be gained by raising my saddle, but I'm not a racer and I am in a comfortable window where I can ride long rides without any joint pain in my current position. I went down in frame size to a 56 when I bought my Bianchi, however, because I had to accept that with age I was losing the flexibility to ride a 130mm slammed stem in a stretched out position. The best bike is the one you can ride comfortably, at the end of the day.
Had a “professional fit”. I had been riding for years, >100,000 miles. Got a new bike after several years of not riding. Set up the position by feel. The “professional fitter” did not change any of my setup by more than 10 mm. Seemed not very significant.
I'm pretty convinced that there's no perfect saddle height. I had a bike fit when I was cycling more/less 4-6 times a week, fit was perfect comfy and aero, but as soon as I got off the bike for 2 or more weeks due to life getting in the way, the perfect position became unsustainable for long periods on the bike.
@@TheAnimejosh as someone who has stopped riding for both long and short periods. This happens to me as well. I will often feel like I'm reaching to the pedals and feel uncomfortable. I'll drop the saddle and over time it starts to feel too low and I'll end up raising it again.
I was wondering he don’t check your shoe cleats position with 43 u was always out of the window so if u bring the saddle high/low setback forward or back is not the whole story
Having worked in the trade for nigh on 20 years - I can attest to differences due to the tools used, and to philosophies of different fitters. I’m sure there has been evolution in those philosophies - but that will be dictated by the fitter and how “up to speed” or set in their ways they are. ;) My own personal fit has changed significantly over the 20 years (I’m now 44) due to changes in physiology and riding style/frequency.
Fascinating! What an insight. I have just acquired Bauke Mollema's Trek Madone from 2022, 58cm frame, (his 3rd Madone actually so almost never ridden). There is only 1 cm difference in our heights and I only dropped the saddle 2 mm, however his bars are 38cm -13% 110mm. Not only do I feel unsafe on the bike I can't ride more than a 45 minutes in (t)his position without feeling total corporal strain (I'm 64 and Bauke is 36). I am changing the handlebars to 40cm -7% 100mm to match my other Madone. This experience brought home the unbelievable difference between how pros ride and how amateurs ride (I typically ride, per year, 10k-12k kms and 10k-15k metres of climb), and how body position and bike fit are very personally related to your goals and objectives as a cyclist.
It would be interesting to compare the result of Phil Burt's bike fit with those of a bike fit app like MyVelofit, BikeFit Calculator, the Roadie BikeFit, and others
Everyone's will be different slightly and within that window.. Therefore useless to get a bike fit, do it yourself and tweak to comfort over time, if you don't have a single clue, maybe you should get one, but then maybe you shouldn't be riding on the roads. Basics.
@@BikesKomsCRO you say that but many people have tried and continue to ride in poor positions and invite injury. Like telling someone to do their own plumbing, some can do it easily, some get lucky, some need to be shown, and some should never be near a wrench
Angles and numbers are great! But what about the things that power your bike, your muscles. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to find out in what position you are achieving what would be the best firing pattern for your muscles for cycling? And then dialling that down to where you get the best bang for your buck for each muscle group?
Hi, I am experiencing saddle related numbness, in the pelvic region does anyone have any idea of how to get rid of it, I have tried all types of bike fit at home.
Love Si's self/others awareness. Of all GCN's presenters, you do the best job of verbalizing how your experience likely differs from us more casual riders. 👍👍
Saddle height should be measured from the center of the top of the pedal to the top of the saddle above the center of the rails (it's where your taint rests). Get that right then move your saddle all way forward and up to that measurement and go for a ride with your tools and move it slightly back and down incrementally until it feels perfect, while still retaining the original measurement from the pedal top to saddle top. 👌
What a great video. The discussion at the end about "ideal" saddle height, fit windows, and adjusting fit within that window based on how the rider feels is invaluable. Fantastic to have more info out there about flexibility in fit.
Saddle height and bikefit in general is a compromise, so to consider it a window is right. I know that with my current frame geometry I sit deep aero and lean too much on the front, although I have a 60 mm short stem, and it comes with numb hands from time to time. But it feels good in terms of pedaling and putting out power. I never had any injuries.
Very well done, ty. I'm 5'8" with 31" inseam, I have 3 racing bikes 50 cm , 51 cm, and 54cm. My reach is short. I put the seat forward as much as possible. My seat high very high. My leg is stretch all the way in the down, I want that power. If I come to a stop I have to get off seat. I don't mind because I like the power. I'm 57 years old, don't drive anymore, bike 20 minutes to work. And bike to do everything. I love it.
You also have to take into consideration our bodies change ie flexibility muscle mass I definitely have a different seating position now in my 60 years than I did in my 20 ( time haha) and I.used the lemond position and then what feels comfortable
If you've been riding for a long time at the same saddle height/position with no issues, it's probably a very good idea to just leave things where they are. That said, if you absolutely have to make a mistake with setting the saddle height, set it too low rather than too high. If you set it too low, your performance will suffer, and you will tire more easily. If your saddle height is too high, you may suffer serious injuries from which it will take months or years to recover.
7:50 brilliant that finally someone actually explains why this “heel on pedal” reference doesn’t always work. Every time I question my fit and research if it is correct I come back to these basic guidelines and then question why they don’t work for me
The science is fascinating. Thank you. One more bit to consider. I have different saddle heights for MTB and CX. I move more on the MTB, so it feels better to have it a few mm lower. High power output CX is more frequently sitting, MTB standing. It works for me. Sorry, don't own a road bike anymore.
Why do you measure saddle height from the bottom bracket? Would it not be better to measure from the low point of the pedal, due the crank length differences?
Because bottom bracket acts as pivot for lot of other measurements as well and it's one point which will remain constant thruout frame's lifespan. It good solid centerpoint.
It would be so interesting if Si went to James the bike fit guy in the bike shop in London call “bicycle.”. He also seems to be extremely knowledgeable on the topic and a comparison between his fit and the one of Phil would be very interesting. Although I think you would be splitting hairs to find the difference
Excellent, simply excellent, loved Si's approach and analysis. Also good to hear the opinions of such an experienced bike fitter, no dogma but instead a flexible approach based on experience, perfect 👍 Also nice to hear the good old heel in pedal baseline didn't get kicked into the weeds, as I've heard from one or two other so called experts, after all we all need a starting point right 🤔 Great stuff, bring on the next one...
The “ankling” technique was one I read about in bicycling magazine (70’s, or early 80’s). I adopted it and firmly believe I got Iliotibial Band Friction Syndrome from it, and gave up cycling for about a decade because of the chronic resulting pain when cycling. Only after healing & discarding that “ankling technique” did I surpass my earlier (prime) youthful years abilities.
My golden principle is to know saddle height above pedal (on seat tube line). For me, that's 876mm (34½"), and this is the figure I use on every bike I own regardless of crank length. From what I heard in the video, maybe I'm fortunate to have enough hip flexibility (despite my age, not because of it) to accommodate cranks ranging from 165mm to 175mm.
I do hope that Dan is made fully aware about how amazing Si's ankles are 🙂 On a serious note, whilst this video was focusing on saddle position, a bike fit will also look at other aspects such as cleat position, stem height and reach. But I suspect these also fall into the same conclusion of 'be comfortable within a window of measurements because there isn't a 'holy grail' specific measurement'.
Everything is interlinked as Phil says - moving your saddle is part of finding the optimal riding position, but cranks and stem changes go hand-in-hand with it 👍
Also, cleat position fore/aft is incredibly important to saddle position and will influence seat post setback/ or not, stem length or even frame size ( top tube length.)
Not sure it is possible to have a perfect anything (for everything). I suspect it will always matter (as was said) on what bike you are riding with what saddle and what bars on what terrain for how long etc, etc. I'm only a casual cyclist so roughly in the window is good enough for me (ie, nothing hurts and I can generally meet my mediocre goals). I might not even have a sufficiently sophisticate palette (so to speak) to appreciate the nuances Si and Phil are discussing here. Still, useful to know that there is a window and people to help you fit optimally within it.
Very insightful,I've seen Phil on Katie Kookaburra'a channel,always on point,... would be interesting to see a performance difference before and after a fit,with maybe the lady who rode a super bike for the first time with Manon last year,she was great ,thanks for all you do!
It’s been said by many others, but here is another comment asking for a new cyclist(not an ex-pro or a 5w/kg Ollie) going through this. It would be interesting to see how their body changes, or doesn’t, as you get their fit correct.
Great just to hear ,and take in all the tangential considerations. Bike comfort and optimal crank arm length , and for me in the end you are fitting to a "window" because you need to be comfortable in the drops as well.
I would like an opinion on this, I’m experiencing that what length (saddle to handlebar) I prefer on my normal race bike and what I prefer on the indoor trainer differs some, so that I like the trainer to be shorter than the “normal” race bike. Does that make any sense ;-)
@@juliann2641 That is my thought, I kind of like to sit more upright (no wind resistance) by the way I’m not a former elite rider but have been a road biker since I was 15 and im now 56 ;-) always had my saddle a little low and have now forced it up in a more "right" position.
I use the heel method. I ride three bikes between my road, gravel and fat bike and each bike has a different pedal and each different shoe I wear has a different stack height. By going with the heel method I think I have basically the same knee angle on all three. So I do believe there's a proper window to fall within.
I did a lot of road riding in the mid 80s to 90s, and about 7 years ago took up riding again. I had a basic fit done to get cleat positions worked out. At the end of 2019 I got a new carbon bike and a full Retul fit done. First time I rode the new bike on the road, it felt like I had been riding it for years. Everything was in the right place. Absolutely amazing what they can do these days vs. back in the 80s.
I think it is easier to sense when your saddle is getting too high rather than a bit too low. I’ve always used the heel on pedal method to get close then gradually raise it till it starts feeling too high. Then lower it till it no longer feels too high. If you can’t drop your ankles a little while pedaling it’s probably too high.
I got a Retül fit around 2010 when I was cycling daily. It’s the best thing I’ve ever bought for cycling. Made me faster and more comfortable. I know I should have had another one since, but the fit still works for me today over 12 years later.
I've had 6 fits, BG, Retul, others etc... + several adjustments, all set my saddle too high, and did not correct my LLD because the numbers did not say anything was an issue. The BG fit said my sit bones were 114 mm instead of 124 mm which put me on a narrow saddle for years. All this this lead to fighting through extreme nerve pain, a disc bulge, asymmetric hip issues and SI joint pain. Then I started experimenting on my own and learn as much as I could about fitting, now I'm pain free after 10 years of issues, I am able to use a negative stem and had the best season ever. Lower saddle, wider saddle that is the right shape, arch support and some minor LLD correction.
Bike fit is this: You go to some “EXPERT” to tell you, that you are shoe size 11. And you pay them $500 to tell you that. (Meanwhile) they have you try shoes on for 4hrs 😂! Because they go: “well Johnnie, it takes about 4hrs to do a proper ✍️🥾 fit” So, you walk out w $500 less, and you KNOW that the PRO told you you are sIze 11. (Back to the shoe fitting philosophy, which life will tell you very accurately). But, wait, there is a catch !? The pro shoe fitter told you you are 11, buuuuuuuuuut !? You leave the store, and God damn it !? The F&$/g shoe is tight !!!! 😮, or is it… Noooo, you screams, is too loose. And then you are like…. I go for a re-fit, they tell you…. Mmmm……………… Maybe…..maybe your shoe is too big. And you are 10.1/2 💩 Get me ….. It’s on of the biggest 🐂💩 Now., If, “somehow” they charge normal rate, like normal humans, and they honor -real, re-fit, until you are completely 150% comfortable, and discomfort free,….. Then….?, I’d erase those horrible emojis 🤓
I'm not sure I agree with the crank length changing gearing, but not speed/power. The effects do somewhat balance off of each other, compensating for the difference, but people seem to be willing to take this logical "equality" to the extreme, almost always in the direction of arguing for shorter cranks. I think, in some cases, if it's well thought-through it might be a worthwhile tradeoff. If you're trying to correct a problem, like someone who is uncomfortable with the hip angle they end up with when they get the saddle position correct for their knees, then it may be worth changing for shorter cranks. It does, however, matter how much range of motion you use to develop power. As a thought experiment, take it to the extreme, and think about why we don't all ride 100mm cranks, and just spin at 180RPM on the granny ring. While gearing can compensate for the difference in crank length, it's not 1:1, and using your muscles over a very short range of motion generally won't develop as much force (it may take more time/distance for longer muscles to contract). IMO, a rider with longer legs shouldn't be constrained to producing force over a shorter range of motion than a more average rider, so they probably should be using longer cranks, unless there's an overriding reason not to. If there's a valid reason to use shorter than ideal cranks, they shouldn't be too afraid of the power loss (the benefit might outweigh the small penalty), but there is a reason we have a range of cranks available, and don't all ride 100mm, and it does continue scaling from very short legged, to very long legged, and doesn't magically stop at 175mm. We're already somewhat limited by how bike frames are built (I'm building a bike with 190mm right now, and have to be careful with pedal clearance, etc), but it's just silly this recent fad of suggesting that people should be running shorter cranks. I'm sure lots of people will see that 190mm and think that I'm the one who's running silly long cranks, but if someone with a 32" inseam is running 165mm cranks and we assume that's reasonable, then scaling that for my 39" inseam means I should be running 201mm to use the _same_ range of motion. It's not "closing my hip", any more than that person on their 165mm. If you have long legs, you should consider if longer cranks might be good for you. People always talk about all the problems from cranks that are "too long", and that's fine, but if you have long legs, and don't have a limited range of motion, it's very unlikely that you're even going to be able to find cranks that are actually too long, without a lot of effort/expense.
I’m enjoying the bike so far ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
My leg length is 850mm. 850 x 0.883 = 750mm. My saddle height is 790mm and has been for ages and many 1,000s of miles. If I drop my saddle by 10mm it feels too low. I have had more than one bike fit. That seems like a large difference from accepted wisdom? I can rest my heel on the pedal at 6 o'clock too.
HOW did I miss this one?! SO informative - I'm currently in a slow, but progressive march towards a much more efficient and comfortable saddle position, and I believe that you've given me the insight I've been looking for to get to the next rung on that ladder. Thanks SO much for this!
The problem with "3mm" is across all my knicks, my chamios thicknesses vary probably more than that lol...so literally what is a good saddle fit for one pair of knicks is bad for another? Based on 3mm making a difference. And I'm not sure anyone, probably even pros, have consistent chamios thickness.
This is a super helpful video, thanks! Quick question, in the clip at around 4:29 where Si's heel is a couple of cm above the pedal - was this Si's normal saddle height? This would be really good to know as im at mt most comfortable when my heel can't quite touch the pedal at the 6 o'clock position. Always thought this was not 'normal' so was wondering if Si was the same? Thank you 😁
at 8.40... surely once we know that he rides "very high" with a resulting knee quite far behind the pedal axle we should be very wary of putting the rider further forward. Hip bone in line with seat tube is also a pretty good guide for this and Si is already quite far forward in this sense. He doesn;t look like he needs more weight over the front of the bike. I suppose (hope!) that Phil is just playing around to show us things.
Have you ever had a bike fit to find your optimal saddle height and riding position?
When I got my gravelbike I had a bike fit. Good decision so far. Meanwhile I changed some things. So I think I will have another bike fit next year.
Proper saddle height and position is indeed a must in riding. Also don't forget to consider the right saddle, to fully optimize the balance on power transfer and comfort.
Yeah, Matt Bottrell on my TT bike specifically for ironman. Combined with replacing the front end poles the entire package made a lot of difference. It was quite specific for long distance, but didn't seem to make much concession to comfort.
I did DIY fit. Bought a guide written by a bikefitter, webcam and downloaded (free) software to record and measure my joint angles. Very enlightening process. Just to know the numbers and principles of bikefit is vital information to understand anything about bikefit. Before that i just adjusted something and had no idea how it would affect everything else. If i was able to resolve some issue it was pure change.
What even most basic bikefit does is set bike into certain set-state and give you numbers on it. From there on you can do adjustments and have something to fall back into if things go bad.
No but I did a DIY bike fit and changed my cranks from 172.5 to 170. Suits me sir!
I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video none the less!
As a 77 year old cyclist coming back after a heart attack to keep fit .I would be more than happy to put my hand up for the opportunity.
RIP
I’d volunteer but the cost to ship me and my bike to the uk. The us to the uk trip might be a bit pricey.
Jokes aside yea I agree. All my by 2 new bike in 20 years maybe to big I don’t have a saddle higher then my bars . But I’m comfortable for 30 to 40 miles. But I bet I’d benefit from a proper fit
I volunteer Harriet
@niallshakeshaft1524’s-comment/post “I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video nonetheless the less!”:
A ex-pro = someone who has been-through professional-level bike-races.
That’s the-only-difference between Si and alot-of-us.
They’re (ie. Professional-cyclists and Semi-pros and Retired-pros) just People, just like us.
I am a seasoned cyclist, 68 y.o. although in denial ;-) and converted to 165mm cranks and couldn't be happier. We lose our hip flexion with age. I rode 175 cranks for decades...I am exactly the same size as Simon...same arm and leg length...same 186cm height aka 6'1"...I am American. This bike fitter is impressively smart. Crank length changes gearing and not speed. I in fact asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and he said the same thing. In fact, most can turn a higher RPM on shorter cranks more comfortably which makes power generation at steady state faster because Power is proportional to RPM with same pedal force.
Simon is a great cyclist. Better than 99% who do it and yet, look how open minded he is to his saddle height and setback. Me too and I have been at it longer than Simon. Saddle height is extremely nuanced...how aggresive you ride and how closed your hip angle and how much you ankle...Simon ankles more than me even though I tend to toe point a bit like Simon.
I largely adjust saddle height based upon feel and eye toward knee angle at bottom of the pedal stroke. Don't fall in love with your saddle height. There maybe a better saddle height and setback for you.
All of this is just a science of belief. The same like while ago was believed that 25mm tires were the most optimal for Tour de France and today scientifically believed that 32mm are the most optimal. The same like it was scientifically believed that chicken eggs rises cholesterol, and today’s scientific belief states that chicken eggs actually reduce cholesterol.
@@tongotongo3143 Well said. As many things in life if waxing philosophic. Take saddle to bar drop. Greater bar drop closes the hip angle. Hip angle relates to crank length and saddle height including setback. A giant, insoluble puzzle subject to interpretation.
Consider a highly optimized TdF rider. Why doesn't every single TdF rider ride with 1 full inch more saddle to handlebar drop? Aerodynamics are king on a racing bike. Less rider frontal area typically translates into greater speed...until it doesn't. When are drops rendered unusable? Why did 7 TdF winner Lance Armstrong...they all doped...why did Lance ride with only 75mm of saddle to bar drop and rode one size up from his average height a 58cm? Because he was faster on that bike will open hip angle and more stretched out.
There is no ideal formula for bike fit or saddle height. The Lemond formula doesn't work for many including me.
It’s pleasure to meet a wise man these days. Yes, Le Mond formula isn’t the most optimal for me either. There are other better formulas, but all of them, and people who implement them, do not talk about the fact that when a real alive human body sits on a bicycle, the saddle collapses from 5mm up to 1cm, and the shoe sole also brings from 6mm up to 1cm variable! Those together can bring almost up to 2 cm difference, and this is a lot. My believe is, the best saddle height adjustment is to sit very straight on a saddle with your shoes on, and rise your saddle very precisely up until your shoes’ heels just barely touch the pedal when your leg is fully extended. Shoes on and leg fully extended are the key moments.
@@tongotongo3143 with all that said just get a bike fit to take out the guessing game. Plain and simple. Not many cyclists even the seasoned one have great body awareness.
It’s nothing to do with body awareness. I have developed my own saddle height formula based on human biomechanics and mathematics. But for ordinary people I just explain it more simple ways.
Si is a great presenter, kept asking good questions which made this video a lot better than other bike fit videos I have watched! Keep rocking the glasses!
Hope the video was useful!
He is a quality presenter…totally agree…
I also think Si genuinely was interested in knowing these things as well. Understanding why he was making these changes. All useful information to have as a cyclist.
Si is a great presenter!
I agree.
I'm curious as to why this wasn't tested at a threshold load. I find that saddle height affects my muscle recruitment a lot at higher loads; mainly not being able to use my glutes/hamstrings when the saddle height is wrong. It's hard to feel that when pedaling at a low effort.
Great video! This inspired me to check on my position, carried out the Lemond method, raised saddle by almost 1cm, moved saddle forwards, went out for a 30 mile ride. The difference in comfort and power output was incredible, felt more "in charge of my bike", if that makes sense! It's a reminder that we always need to review our set up every now and again, and don't be afraid to experiment as long as you record the changes you make.
Si’s ankles and the word beautiful in the same sentence…someone’s getting a Christmas card next year.
Si promises he didn't pay Phil to say that, but we're not so sure...! 😂
I have a touring bike for outside the city, and a 1966 foldable 24 inch steel bike with short crancks for the shorter trips in the city. On this city bike I get to most places I need to go throuhghout the week. I put the saddle on my city-bike about an inch down, to see what it does to my legs. So my shorter trips I ride with a lower saddle with two gears with bent knees. I have the impression that this way my quads are getting stronger because they are doing work in different positions. I have started doing this because I think this helps with Ice Skating. I allso feel stronger on my touring bike when riding uphill. More torque in motorists words.
A really good video and you know why? Because Si was actually going through that fit and asked all the questions he genuinely had, this is what makes it so interesting. Not a polished version of ‘what-can-learn-when-you-go-to-a-bike-fit’. I really, really enjoyed this video - thank you Si.
I begin to say sorry for my bad english 😊. Thanks for this episode. It made me raise my saddle 1cm. Have been riding with the new saddle height since this episode came out. What I have noticed is that I am less fatigued in my inner or lower quads. I was a bit afraid that I would get pain in my knees. I also noticed that I can push myself more. So thanks 😊
Would be interesting to see the compete change over for Si with crank etc. and see ftp test against both. 👍
Great video ... your bike fitter guest was a bit hard to understand, even as a native English speaker. I plugged some of his audio into a speech recognition system and even Google couldn't understand much of what your man spoke.
The higher the better, like standing but without you holding up your weight. How much weight on your arms, problem most people have is the raise their Sadler’s without realising it’s probably moving their saddle back, then it changing which legs muscles you use and again changes weight on your arms. Also the length of your cranks and where you put your cleats all change everything. It also depends if you want power in the tops, hoods or drops. It could easily drive you crazy.
Sitting back let’s your hamstrings pull back more. I have done this as I was using my quads and nearly no hamstrings apart from in hills which moves your saddle back.🙈🙈🙈
Pros aren’t necessary in the perfect position but they have trained their body in that position so it feels right.
Longer crank lengths of give you more power out if the saddle.
Lower revs are better for stress on your body(longer cranks). I again can pull back more on longer cranks, it can go back to which position you are going to ride in
My saddle is so high that I have less than an inch of post in my frame, a frame btw my fitter said was too big for me by .5 cm. Fitters are crazy. My seat is back a little, with a slight downslope. This is perfect for me for long rides with variable wind directions. I drop the saddle on certain rides that demand more clearance for my bum when out of the saddle (twisty, technical routes for example.) But for long slogs that include cross and headwinds, I sit high so when I'm in the drops, I'm aero. The ride matters. There is no perfect saddle height, only one that feels good, and that feel good feeling varies by route.
I'm a fan of trying to get things in the ball park on a trainer, then going for a ride with a multi tool and making slight adjustments based on real world riding feel. That to me creates the "perfect" fit.
cool story bro
agreed!
I had a Retül bike fit once and it was too high- gave me knee pain.
The rest felt very snake oil salesman like. Get your rich client in, take £1000 off them, make them feel special for a couple of hours, name drop the yellow jerseys, sell them some over priced bike parts and then send them off with the bike fit they came in with 🤣
I'm sure I'm way off base here, but wow this felt like a snake oil salesman talking fast, saying things, and getting his audience to agree so as not to feel dumb but really nothing was really said. Nothing about this felt scientific and the quick pan to the numbers to make it seem like it was without actually letting the viewers see or REALLY describing their meaning and effect felt like everything was playing into the salesman's pitch. Generally really enjoy GCN and I'm sure getting a bike fit could be super helpful, and surely this man is very bright, but dang! That whole video left a really bad taste in my mouth.
Yeah
yeah I would say other than learning proper saddle width, seat height, and cleat placement, most other things on a fit are up to rider preference. the whole Retül high tech fit is fun to look at, but you can get just as good of a fit with way cheaper equipment. with that being said I do think getting fitted, even by a guy like this, at least once is a good thing. but after that initial fit you know your measurements and can setup your own bikes easier in the future.
but yeah it does often time feel like salesman talk
@@zionwood6157 thanks for the insight!
I have had the best luck using a variation of the Lemond method called the 109% method. The logic is that the 88% measurement to the bottom bracket in the Lemond does not take into account crank length. So multiply your inseam in cm by 1.09 and instead of measuring to the bottom bracket instead measure to the spindle of the pedal. This is very useful for me as I currently have different length cranks on one of my favorite bikes. I've been much happier since I started using this method.
i have my bike fit last year using Idmatch bikelab.. according to the assessment of the bike fitter my saddle height should be around 67,8cm.. i tried riding with it but i never get used to it coz it felt very high.. dropped it by 1 cm and it became very comfortable :)..
I definitely appreciate Simon trying to extract as much info as he could from Phil. I'm not sure this video actually helps me any more than any of the other saddle height videos, though I was excited to watch 27 minutes on saddle height. I know I've fallen into the trap of paying attention to the numbers, like using formulas and thinking about where my saddle "should" be, even though the formulas usually put it higher for me than is comfortable. Kinetic cycle (youtube) recommends heel on pedal with NO SHOES then going down 3-5mm and starting there, AND basing it on the shortest (physically or functionally) of your legs as you sit comfortably on the saddle, without dropping hip to get heel to pedal. Based on where Simon's heel was when he started this video, that would leave a good 3cm gap between his foot and the pedal. Quite a huge difference, and again speaks to the idea that there is a range of saddle heights for any person. I believe tending towards the low end of the range is best for me anyway, but someone else could feel different. Saddle height is definitely a cycling rabbit hole that I think people shouldn't mess with unless they are having pain.
Just when I thought my saddle height was perfect, this video came by. Well, time to fiddle with my saddle height again.
We hope this helps! Don't forget, going in person to a bike fitter is always a good choice if you're struggling to get the right setup.
Your cleats look pretty far forward, long feet, pointing ankles, the heel method doesn't work well under these perameters.
There was a wonderfully positive frustration sitting underneath this conversation. The tension of two completely valid and correct points of view interacting and layering on top of each other, laying foundations to explore new and improved territory.
Great video. I recently went through a bike fit that utilised the Retul system and it was an excellent experience that addressed back strain I would regularly get about 45 min into the ride.
I would be dissapointed with that fitting, expecting the fitter to fit me to the bike. If he is just listen to me on how i feel, i could the fitting by myself and find my own position. As he is saying "the body could adapt" i would like him to fit me, prevent me from injuries, even it feels strange at the first time until i adapt to the new postion...
Same observation here... I'd be running away from a fitter who is looking more at the raw numbers on the screen rather than watching my pedalling dynamics and how the body moves.
When my saddle height isn't right, I throw the bike away in the garbage and buy a new one
I know there are a few watts to be gained by raising my saddle, but I'm not a racer and I am in a comfortable window where I can ride long rides without any joint pain in my current position. I went down in frame size to a 56 when I bought my Bianchi, however, because I had to accept that with age I was losing the flexibility to ride a 130mm slammed stem in a stretched out position. The best bike is the one you can ride comfortably, at the end of the day.
I think I may be the first to view this video at 12 sec after publishing... Its an interesting feeling.
What's the feeling like? Does life feel different now vs before?
@@dylan-5287 life? Not at all. Just feels like I walked into an empty classroom.
@@c.d.j300 ah I gotcha. Always strange being the first into the classroom haha.
Had a “professional fit”. I had been riding for years, >100,000 miles. Got a new bike after several years of not riding. Set up the position by feel. The “professional fitter” did not change any of my setup by more than 10 mm. Seemed not very significant.
I'm pretty convinced that there's no perfect saddle height. I had a bike fit when I was cycling more/less 4-6 times a week, fit was perfect comfy and aero, but as soon as I got off the bike for 2 or more weeks due to life getting in the way, the perfect position became unsustainable for long periods on the bike.
Have you ever tried a bike fit before?
@@gcn Yes, I got that position through a bike fit. Became unsustainable when I became unfit though:(
@@TheAnimejosh That makes complete sense.
Yes, how often do we have a bike fit?
@@TheAnimejosh as someone who has stopped riding for both long and short periods. This happens to me as well. I will often feel like I'm reaching to the pedals and feel uncomfortable. I'll drop the saddle and over time it starts to feel too low and I'll end up raising it again.
I was wondering he don’t check your shoe cleats position with 43 u was always out of the window so if u bring the saddle high/low setback forward or back is not the whole story
I think a bike fit can be a really good investment.
Having worked in the trade for nigh on 20 years - I can attest to differences due to the tools used, and to philosophies of different fitters.
I’m sure there has been evolution in those philosophies - but that will be dictated by the fitter and how “up to speed” or set in their ways they are. ;)
My own personal fit has changed significantly over the 20 years (I’m now 44) due to changes in physiology and riding style/frequency.
Too high. Pain in the rear of knee.
Too low. Pain in the front of knee.
Just right. Pain in the middle of knee.
Fascinating! What an insight. I have just acquired Bauke Mollema's Trek Madone from 2022, 58cm frame, (his 3rd Madone actually so almost never ridden). There is only 1 cm difference in our heights and I only dropped the saddle 2 mm, however his bars are 38cm -13% 110mm. Not only do I feel unsafe on the bike I can't ride more than a 45 minutes in (t)his position without feeling total corporal strain (I'm 64 and Bauke is 36). I am changing the handlebars to 40cm -7% 100mm to match my other Madone. This experience brought home the unbelievable difference between how pros ride and how amateurs ride (I typically ride, per year, 10k-12k kms and 10k-15k metres of climb), and how body position and bike fit are very personally related to your goals and objectives as a cyclist.
will shoe thickness and cleat height total be needed for saddle height position
That's why you have to adjust to feel.
The best bike fit is just rise your saddle until you barely touch pedals with your heels with shoes on, and you are good to go.
It would be interesting to compare the result of Phil Burt's bike fit with those of a bike fit app like MyVelofit, BikeFit Calculator, the Roadie BikeFit, and others
Everyone's will be different slightly and within that window.. Therefore useless to get a bike fit, do it yourself and tweak to comfort over time, if you don't have a single clue, maybe you should get one, but then maybe you shouldn't be riding on the roads. Basics.
@@BikesKomsCRO you say that but many people have tried and continue to ride in poor positions and invite injury. Like telling someone to do their own plumbing, some can do it easily, some get lucky, some need to be shown, and some should never be near a wrench
Tests have been done with different numbers as an outcome..
TLDW; what's the optimal height?
Angles and numbers are great! But what about the things that power your bike, your muscles. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to find out in what position you are achieving what would be the best firing pattern for your muscles for cycling? And then dialling that down to where you get the best bang for your buck for each muscle group?
Best position to put out highest watts with lowest heart rate!
Hi, I am experiencing saddle related numbness, in the pelvic region does anyone have any idea of how to get rid of it, I have tried all types of bike fit at home.
Love Si's self/others awareness. Of all GCN's presenters, you do the best job of verbalizing how your experience likely differs from us more casual riders. 👍👍
Saddle height should be measured from the center of the top of the pedal to the top of the saddle above the center of the rails (it's where your taint rests). Get that right then move your saddle all way forward and up to that measurement and go for a ride with your tools and move it slightly back and down incrementally until it feels perfect, while still retaining the original measurement from the pedal top to saddle top. 👌
What a great video. The discussion at the end about "ideal" saddle height, fit windows, and adjusting fit within that window based on how the rider feels is invaluable. Fantastic to have more info out there about flexibility in fit.
Did Simon have a bike fit for his left side?
Saddle height and bikefit in general is a compromise, so to consider it a window is right. I know that with my current frame geometry I sit deep aero and lean too much on the front, although I have a 60 mm short stem, and it comes with numb hands from time to time. But it feels good in terms of pedaling and putting out power. I never had any injuries.
Let's bring get someone like Cillian to have ago?
We'll see if we can rope him into more videos in the future!
Very well done, ty. I'm 5'8" with 31" inseam, I have 3 racing bikes 50 cm , 51 cm, and 54cm. My reach is short. I put the seat forward as much as possible. My seat high very high. My leg is stretch all the way in the down, I want that power. If I come to a stop I have to get off seat. I don't mind because I like the power. I'm 57 years old, don't drive anymore, bike 20 minutes to work. And bike to do everything. I love it.
This topic ,i believe ,is a real can of worms. For me at least :)
if you got smaller wheels they would fit over the hurdles…
Shouldnt be the saddle height fit the rider and not the bike? Who made that video title
“People will tell you what they want.” Then why pay to get a bike fit?
Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough...
You also have to take into consideration our bodies change ie flexibility muscle mass
I definitely have a different seating position now in my 60 years than I did in my 20 ( time haha) and I.used the lemond position and then what feels comfortable
If you've been riding for a long time at the same saddle height/position with no issues, it's probably a very good idea to just leave things where they are. That said, if you absolutely have to make a mistake with setting the saddle height, set it too low rather than too high. If you set it too low, your performance will suffer, and you will tire more easily. If your saddle height is too high, you may suffer serious injuries from which it will take months or years to recover.
Si the Ankle Boy
7:50 brilliant that finally someone actually explains why this “heel on pedal” reference doesn’t always work. Every time I question my fit and research if it is correct I come back to these basic guidelines and then question why they don’t work for me
same, i followed this, i felt like my seat was way too low, after i set it more high again, i realised how much extra watts i was missing out
Bear in mind that the "heel on pedal" is a starting point (as is the "knee over pedal spindle") not the end of the bike fit.
The science is fascinating. Thank you. One more bit to consider. I have different saddle heights for MTB and CX. I move more on the MTB, so it feels better to have it a few mm lower. High power output CX is more frequently sitting, MTB standing. It works for me. Sorry, don't own a road bike anymore.
Why do you measure saddle height from the bottom bracket? Would it not be better to measure from the low point of the pedal, due the crank length differences?
That's how I do it, less math between bikes
Because bottom bracket acts as pivot for lot of other measurements as well and it's one point which will remain constant thruout frame's lifespan. It good solid centerpoint.
It would be so interesting if Si went to James the bike fit guy in the bike shop in London call “bicycle.”. He also seems to be extremely knowledgeable on the topic and a comparison between his fit and the one of Phil would be very interesting. Although I think you would be splitting hairs to find the difference
Excellent, simply excellent, loved Si's approach and analysis. Also good to hear the opinions of such an experienced bike fitter, no dogma but instead a flexible approach based on experience, perfect 👍
Also nice to hear the good old heel in pedal baseline didn't get kicked into the weeds, as I've heard from one or two other so called experts, after all we all need a starting point right 🤔
Great stuff, bring on the next one...
What else would you like to see Si take a deep dive into?
Si’s ankles absorb the changes. So over the course of his cycling life those ankles must have absorbed a lot of changes to swell to that size! 😂
😂
This man mentions Si’s ankles about every three minutes. They loom large in his professional assessment.
🤣🤣🤣
The “ankling” technique was one I read about in bicycling magazine (70’s, or early 80’s).
I adopted it and firmly believe I got Iliotibial Band Friction Syndrome from it, and gave up cycling for about a decade because of the chronic resulting pain when cycling. Only after healing & discarding that “ankling technique” did I surpass my earlier (prime) youthful years abilities.
I change my saddle position regularly depending on the footwear and even the biking shammy thickness.
My golden principle is to know saddle height above pedal (on seat tube line). For me, that's 876mm (34½"), and this is the figure I use on every bike I own regardless of crank length. From what I heard in the video, maybe I'm fortunate to have enough hip flexibility (despite my age, not because of it) to accommodate cranks ranging from 165mm to 175mm.
I do hope that Dan is made fully aware about how amazing Si's ankles are 🙂
On a serious note, whilst this video was focusing on saddle position, a bike fit will also look at other aspects such as cleat position, stem height and reach. But I suspect these also fall into the same conclusion of 'be comfortable within a window of measurements because there isn't a 'holy grail' specific measurement'.
Everything is interlinked as Phil says - moving your saddle is part of finding the optimal riding position, but cranks and stem changes go hand-in-hand with it 👍
Also, cleat position fore/aft is incredibly important to saddle position and will influence seat post setback/ or not, stem length or even frame size ( top tube length.)
Is this the first time in GCN history that Si's ankles have been talked about in a positive way?
And the last!
@@gcn And we now know why he hit that barrier. His toes were pointed down.
Great video! I missed the impact of cleat position, what about it?
He worked with Team Sky? Ask him why Chris Froome’s saddle is set so low!!!
Not sure it is possible to have a perfect anything (for everything). I suspect it will always matter (as was said) on what bike you are riding with what saddle and what bars on what terrain for how long etc, etc. I'm only a casual cyclist so roughly in the window is good enough for me (ie, nothing hurts and I can generally meet my mediocre goals). I might not even have a sufficiently sophisticate palette (so to speak) to appreciate the nuances Si and Phil are discussing here. Still, useful to know that there is a window and people to help you fit optimally within it.
Very insightful,I've seen Phil on Katie Kookaburra'a channel,always on point,... would be interesting to see a performance difference before and after a fit,with maybe the lady who rode a super bike for the first time with Manon last year,she was great ,thanks for all you do!
It’s been said by many others, but here is another comment asking for a new cyclist(not an ex-pro or a 5w/kg Ollie) going through this. It would be interesting to see how their body changes, or doesn’t, as you get their fit correct.
It looks like the frame Si is using is small. Apart from reach would frame size affect seat position?
Great just to hear ,and take in all the tangential considerations. Bike comfort and optimal crank arm length , and for me in the end you are fitting to a "window" because you need to be comfortable in the drops as well.
This would be a very educational and useful video....IF we all had super absorbent mega-ankles like Si...
😂
If only Dan‘s ankles could absorb that much.
I would like an opinion on this, I’m experiencing that what length (saddle to handlebar) I prefer on my normal race bike and what I prefer on the indoor trainer differs some, so that I like the trainer to be shorter than the “normal” race bike. Does that make any sense ;-)
I don't know if it makes sense, but I experience the same. Could it be something to do with the trainer not moving..?
@@juliann2641 That is my thought, I kind of like to sit more upright (no wind resistance) by the way I’m not a former elite rider but have been a road biker since I was 15 and im now 56 ;-) always had my saddle a little low and have now forced it up in a more "right" position.
You get more power with less hip angle, but better aero with more hip angle
@@janeblogs324 more power for how long? An hour 😂 if its not sustainable then its bollocks.
Cycling is essentially single leg squats. The position that gives more power will typically give you more endurance.
I use the heel method. I ride three bikes between my road, gravel and fat bike and each bike has a different pedal and each different shoe I wear has a different stack height. By going with the heel method I think I have basically the same knee angle on all three. So I do believe there's a proper window to fall within.
Argh saddle height. I have to have it mm perfect. Takes a few rides or mm adjustments on the fly when I get a new bike
I did a lot of road riding in the mid 80s to 90s, and about 7 years ago took up riding again. I had a basic fit done to get cleat positions worked out. At the end of 2019 I got a new carbon bike and a full Retul fit done. First time I rode the new bike on the road, it felt like I had been riding it for years. Everything was in the right place. Absolutely amazing what they can do these days vs. back in the 80s.
I think it is easier to sense when your saddle is getting too high rather than a bit too low. I’ve always used the heel on pedal method to get close then gradually raise it till it starts feeling too high. Then lower it till it no longer feels too high. If you can’t drop your ankles a little while pedaling it’s probably too high.
I got a Retül fit around 2010 when I was cycling daily. It’s the best thing I’ve ever bought for cycling. Made me faster and more comfortable. I know I should have had another one since, but the fit still works for me today over 12 years later.
Incredibly boring. I guess if you’re a TDF professional it’s relevant, but to recreational cyclists this is crazy complicated.
There is really a lot about the saddle height of a road bike.. but what is the right height for a 10km TT ride or 250m track cycling??
Phil talks about Si's flowy ankles, wonder what he would say about Dan's?
I've had 6 fits, BG, Retul, others etc... + several adjustments, all set my saddle too high, and did not correct my LLD because the numbers did not say anything was an issue. The BG fit said my sit bones were 114 mm instead of 124 mm which put me on a narrow saddle for years. All this this lead to fighting through extreme nerve pain, a disc bulge, asymmetric hip issues and SI joint pain. Then I started experimenting on my own and learn as much as I could about fitting, now I'm pain free after 10 years of issues, I am able to use a negative stem and had the best season ever. Lower saddle, wider saddle that is the right shape, arch support and some minor LLD correction.
That bike looks one size too small
For most casual riders just to get near the ideal position is enough. I usually do the "extended leg" type of adjustment for beginners
That method definitely helps get a good idea of the right height!
Bike fit is this:
You go to some “EXPERT” to tell you, that you are shoe size 11. And you pay them $500 to tell you that. (Meanwhile) they have you try shoes on for 4hrs 😂! Because they go: “well Johnnie, it takes about 4hrs to do a proper ✍️🥾 fit”
So, you walk out w $500 less, and you KNOW that the PRO told you you are sIze 11. (Back to the shoe fitting philosophy, which life will tell you very accurately).
But, wait, there is a catch !?
The pro shoe fitter told you you are 11, buuuuuuuuuut !?
You leave the store, and God damn it !?
The F&$/g shoe is tight !!!! 😮, or is it…
Noooo, you screams, is too loose.
And then you are like….
I go for a re-fit, they tell you….
Mmmm………………
Maybe…..maybe your shoe is too big. And you are 10.1/2 💩
Get me …..
It’s on of the biggest 🐂💩
Now.,
If, “somehow” they charge normal rate, like normal humans, and they honor -real, re-fit, until you are completely 150% comfortable, and discomfort free,…..
Then….?,
I’d erase those horrible emojis 🤓
I really like how you started with two, DIY, methods to get you in the ballpark.
The Lemond method is a good starting point. Then 6 weeks at 250-300km and take multi tool for adjustments.
If you apply power, this philosophy will put you too high and limit glute power. Check out steve hogg. Check out Bikefit James and Neil Stansbury.
I'm not sure I agree with the crank length changing gearing, but not speed/power. The effects do somewhat balance off of each other, compensating for the difference, but people seem to be willing to take this logical "equality" to the extreme, almost always in the direction of arguing for shorter cranks.
I think, in some cases, if it's well thought-through it might be a worthwhile tradeoff. If you're trying to correct a problem, like someone who is uncomfortable with the hip angle they end up with when they get the saddle position correct for their knees, then it may be worth changing for shorter cranks.
It does, however, matter how much range of motion you use to develop power. As a thought experiment, take it to the extreme, and think about why we don't all ride 100mm cranks, and just spin at 180RPM on the granny ring. While gearing can compensate for the difference in crank length, it's not 1:1, and using your muscles over a very short range of motion generally won't develop as much force (it may take more time/distance for longer muscles to contract).
IMO, a rider with longer legs shouldn't be constrained to producing force over a shorter range of motion than a more average rider, so they probably should be using longer cranks, unless there's an overriding reason not to. If there's a valid reason to use shorter than ideal cranks, they shouldn't be too afraid of the power loss (the benefit might outweigh the small penalty), but there is a reason we have a range of cranks available, and don't all ride 100mm, and it does continue scaling from very short legged, to very long legged, and doesn't magically stop at 175mm.
We're already somewhat limited by how bike frames are built (I'm building a bike with 190mm right now, and have to be careful with pedal clearance, etc), but it's just silly this recent fad of suggesting that people should be running shorter cranks.
I'm sure lots of people will see that 190mm and think that I'm the one who's running silly long cranks, but if someone with a 32" inseam is running 165mm cranks and we assume that's reasonable, then scaling that for my 39" inseam means I should be running 201mm to use the _same_ range of motion. It's not "closing my hip", any more than that person on their 165mm.
If you have long legs, you should consider if longer cranks might be good for you. People always talk about all the problems from cranks that are "too long", and that's fine, but if you have long legs, and don't have a limited range of motion, it's very unlikely that you're even going to be able to find cranks that are actually too long, without a lot of effort/expense.
I’m enjoying the bike so far ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
Not to worry. All Canyon’s have an on the go auto adjust saddle height. 😁
My leg length is 850mm. 850 x 0.883 = 750mm. My saddle height is 790mm and has been for ages and many 1,000s of miles. If I drop my saddle by 10mm it feels too low. I have had more than one bike fit. That seems like a large difference from accepted wisdom? I can rest my heel on the pedal at 6 o'clock too.
HOW did I miss this one?! SO informative - I'm currently in a slow, but progressive march towards a much more efficient and comfortable saddle position, and I believe that you've given me the insight I've been looking for to get to the next rung on that ladder. Thanks SO much for this!
Si’s 777 mm saddle height? What’s his inseam measurement? How does this relate to the 0.833 x inseam measurement?
The problem with "3mm" is across all my knicks, my chamios thicknesses vary probably more than that lol...so literally what is a good saddle fit for one pair of knicks is bad for another? Based on 3mm making a difference. And I'm not sure anyone, probably even pros, have consistent chamios thickness.
This is a super helpful video, thanks! Quick question, in the clip at around 4:29 where Si's heel is a couple of cm above the pedal - was this Si's normal saddle height? This would be really good to know as im at mt most comfortable when my heel can't quite touch the pedal at the 6 o'clock position. Always thought this was not 'normal' so was wondering if Si was the same? Thank you 😁
at 8.40... surely once we know that he rides "very high" with a resulting knee quite far behind the pedal axle we should be very wary of putting the rider further forward. Hip bone in line with seat tube is also a pretty good guide for this and Si is already quite far forward in this sense. He doesn;t look like he needs more weight over the front of the bike. I suppose (hope!) that Phil is just playing around to show us things.
this guy talks the same as that other bike fit guy i see on youtube.