Using canyons online bike size calculator! I've had a good fit on my existing bike for years. Canyon estimate the next size up which has an enormous increase in stack and reach.
Our channel has a super helpful product that makes Bike Fitting easy. Check out our Perfect Fit System Saddle Selector ™️, it takes sit-bone measurements via pressure mapping and matches them to the best fitting bike saddle. Check it out on our RUclips channel.
Important note here as a cycling physio myself: You can definetly make changes to the bike to fit you better BUT you can also work on your body to fit the bike better. Flexibility/mobility and core muscle endurance are really important factors for a successful bikefit. Also unless the fit is competely off, small differences won´t be a deal breaker; the human body is adaptable and can deal with variations as long as they aren´t absurd. Trust your body and give it time to adjust before any drastic changes.
I agree, as my core got stronger and I got more flexible, I did changes to my bike fit for more aero positions, particularly to improve comfort on the drops. My pedaling technique also changed which required me to bring saddle to a more forward position and/or tilted down to keep my butt from being shoved backward against the seat.
About eight years ago I had a professional bike fit with Garry Kirk. I went to Garry with lots of pains - neck, shoulders, wrists, lower back, knees, pins and needles in my feet. After a few hours, buying a new saddle, narrower bar and shorter stem, some other adjustments I was pain free. I could cycle for hours in drops without any pain. I was able to generate more power - FTP “increased” by 80W!!! Last year when considering a new bike I went to see Garry again as my needs and mobility changed. The bike I got is a size 56 cm. ALL manufacturers recommend a 54cm frame with the dimensions they ask for. But none checks how flexible you are, what your goal is, arm length and more. I have a bike that suits me perfectly. I said it many times to my club mates that money spent on bike fit was the best bike related investment ever.
Phil's fit philosophy is spot on...and will summarize what I believe based upon several decades of riding.... - Narrower handlebars are generally more comfortable and faster and yes handlebar width affects reach. Larger bikes....I ride a XL...generally come with too wide a handlebar. - For an aging road cyclist even with longer legs...I am Si's size...shorter cranks are better on multiple levels from hip impingement to pelvis angle on the saddle and ability to rotate the torso down and ride more aero. - Frame size is NOT necessarily tied to body size. I am Si's size and I ride 1 frame size up for more comfort versus more aero. Lance who is 5'9 ish raced on a 58cm frame throughout his career and Si at 6'1" rides a 56. - Endurance geometry...what Phil said again, works best for the 'average' rider and not ex-pros like Si. Pros were pros for a reason. Pros throughout their riding career, rode out of the wind with less steep torso angle than most mortals can tolerate. I could ride Si's bike maybe even without a saddle adjustment but after 20 miles my body would hurt because I am older and less flexible, and I am fit.
I've said this before on previous bike fit videos but the biggest problem is the bike manufacturers themselves. The recommended size for a lot of people based on height and/or inseam is generally wrong and the bike will then also be supplied with the wrong size stem, handlebars and crank to match some arbitrary average figure. I would never buy another bike off the shelf now as I have to replace so many parts it just makes more sense to buy the right size frame from the start and build it up from there.
I reference a 525 (520-530) effective top tube or so. I never go off sizing charts. Because not all of them recommend the same sized (in terms of objective metrics like stack reach seat tube angle) bike for the same height, so what is that worth even?
I just went back to 400mm bars from 440 that came standard on my L frame Merida, and its made a huge difference to my reach. bike feels so much more comfortable now.
@5amba I'm not that big...but I ride a 46 enve ses on my 56 emonda and a 46 (48 center to center at the hoods) ritchey venturemax on my custom sized ti monstercross bike
@@5amba manufactures do it on purpose so you have to spend extra money on parts. ie a smaller width handle bar. They know what they're doing. they're trying to maximise profits.
As a short person, easily the biggest improvements in comfort on the bike have been 1) smaller handlebar width and 2) shorter crank length. It seems that so many stock bikes come with the same bar width and crank length from XXS Frames to Medium frames, despite the fact that the riders will have significantly different bodies.
So I have struggled with my bike recently, I’m 6’2 riding a 59cm frame. Just adjusted my seat and it’s already made a world a difference. I’m excited to make more adjustments now! Thank you Phil and thank you GCN
First thing I do on any new bike is to take off a shoe, sit on the bike, pedal backwards with my heel on the spindle. If My leg maxxes out at the bottom, I'm about there. Might need to raise the saddle like 1/2" Done.
Good for you! I learned to do my own bike fit from information on line and experimentation. If you don't aleady, try doing your own bike work too, you will see that most of it is not as difficult as bike mechanics want to charge lots of money for
Fit is such an individual thing. I'm the same height as you but ride a 56 with a 130mm stem and a high seat post (looks like Si's bike), but I used to race and my body's comfortable that way. I'm guessing your frame is probably a bit too large, but you could be one of those guys with a long torso or long legs and need the extra tube length, like they mention in the video.
Years ago, an UK cycling magazine sent a guy with his bike to 4-5 different bike fitters. Results were surprisingly different with saddle height/seatback, stem length, and handlebar width ranging +/-10mm or more...
Not surprising. A combination of the psychology of each bike fitter wanting to make a change to show they've done something for their money and the fact that everyone has different levels of flexibility so what works for one won't work for another. Bike fits are a bit like new bits of kit, no one ever admits to wasting their money. There's plenty of information out there so there's not much you can't do yourself.
I really don't care what the numbers say, the only person who's going to know where I'm flexible and where I'm comfortable is me. Play optometrist (number one, or number 2...) for a few hours on a Saturday and you'll figure it out!
@@bikeman123 Man. You said that perfect. This has also been my opinion. It has taken me exactly 1 year since I started riding to get my fit to where I am happy today. I could have paid for a fit, but for me, I wanted to learn how to do my own fit. I see it as part of the learning process of the bike in general, and not about saving money. Throughout the entire year, my fit changed because my body kept changing from riding. Can you imagine how many fits I would had to have? Now that my body is better prepared, I won't be doing anymore adjustments! One more note....sometimes articles have the correct Information. I read somewhere that for a person 5'11, that is the only height that has a suggested known crank length, which is 172.5mm. I wanted to try 165's (to see about opening up the hip) which were good, until I tried to ride out of the saddle on a super steep hill. I went back to 172.5, and raised the seat to compensate. So I say when looking at Information, really examine the source, which is another problem with finding a bike fitter. How many really know exactly what they are doing, and your body tells you what Is right or wrong anyway by experimenting, being careful not to injure yourself while doing so.
I'm 6 ft 0 inches and also have a 59 frame.and what I did in the beginning is made sure my saddle height is adjusted correctly in order for me to have a comfortable experience. I've not had any awkward issues for months.
I'm also 6 feet with fairly high inseam and size 11.5 shoes (which I think is often overlooked as a factor) and I'm a little put off by the comments saying that 59 is too large. Though I'm riding a 58 endurance bike for two years now with a couple of 200km rides under my belt and didn't notice any real issues other than numb toes, which I fixed with new shoes and moving back the cleats.
Can highly recommend James Thomas in Richmond - just a legend in bike fitting. Excellent videos on Cade Media too. But manufacturers are at fault here. A client should be able to select bar width, casette, saddle, stem length, crank length BEFORE you buy....all stock items that can be used as the bike is built!!
I'm 60 years old now. Back in 2017 I bought the last 2015 Masi Gran Coursa on the showroom floor at Chainwheel Drive bicycle shop in Clearwater Florida. At the top of the down tube is a sticker that says 59. I test rode the bike 3 times over a month, thinking it was perhaps a bit short along the top tube. The price was so great that I bought it anyway. I set the seat back a little bit and as I've ridden it, I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much perfect for me. I've never been close to professional as a cyclist, this is the first 'go-fast' bike I've ever owned. My goal when shopping for such a bike was to get one worthy of, at least, a Shimano 105 set, and thats what this one came with. The rims it came with were Mercury and at the 11th month on a 12 month warranty those rims were cracking, and the spokes were pulling through. Masi were very kind to replace the wheels with DT Swiss 460s and they are awesome. Much stiffer and definitely stronger. I don't know how I could be happier with this purchase. I absolutely love it 😀. I just wish I had this bike when I was 19. A nearly $1400 bike for $800 with a Shimano 105 set and a bike thats definitely worthy, in my humble opinion. MAYBE one day I upgraded to Ultegra. But I'm not really trying to eek out a couple more mph without sponsorship 🤣 Excellent bike. I dont really blame Masi or Murcury for the first pair of wheels. They had fewer spokes and were probably more for a few races than to go as many miles as I did. The DT Swiss are very nice 👌, strong and stiff. At about 6 feet tall and ~200 lbs this bike is great 👍. FUN times and fitness control 😀 Oh by the way with the 52 tooth chain ring my record top speed is 48mph 😃. I tried like heck to get 50mph but my legs can't pedal any faster and maybe a 54 tooth chain ring would be a bit much for an / this amateur 🤔 😅 Great 👍 vid. Thanks for the post.
As a relatively new cyclist, cycling solo. It’s always been hard to tell if my fit is good, bad or anything in between. It can be hard to justify a bike fit if you are new to cycling because it’s a decent investment you might think is spent better elsewhere. I’ve never felt a bike has fitted me great, but I used myvelofit recently and done it at home on my turbo and I thought I was starting from a “decent” position and it changed me massively. I feel much better now but I was always moving my saddle lower and lower and my bars up and up and this done the total opposite, saddle up by almost 50mm which seems nuts! But it just worked. I’d have never got to that position myself
I purchased a bike from an online only manufacturer. I measured my old bike and compared it with the new bike specs and purchased based on that. When I got the bike delivered, I set the saddle height and lowered the bars 10mm. I've been very comfortable for 3 years now.
Something I learned of value....know your saddle. Some saddles (SELLE SMP Triathalon) are designed in a way that the back of the saddle is raised to where it looks as if it is higher than the front due to the padding in the back, but is designed that way so that when you sit your bones on it, you sit evenly, and the cut-out relieves pressure and has a short and curved nose for rolling your hips forward dropping down into the drops. When off of the bike, the nose looks like it is angled upwards, which is the correct way with this saddle. You will find this out because if you position it using a leveler on the saddle back edge to front tip, your body wants to slide forward because of the back end padding! So you have to angle it a little upwards.
Stem length - my Specialized Diverge was already the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden, but a bike fit recommended changing the stem from 80mm as standard to 100mm and the difference is massive.
That's cool, if I may second that, from Italy but after a good few years in the Uk back then, I ride a now legendary 'cousin' to the Diverge, the AWOL, and it feels like sliding on a sofa, but sliding quite fast for a steel workhorse that is. I was working in a seaside town on the Riviera and l got a second cheaper bike, loving British ones I got shipped a very typical tourer, a Roux Etape 150. Very similar geometries but one is 61cm, the latter is 58. I adjusted stem and bar sizes, it's so interesting how (little though) each bike feels. Both awesome in their own way. Just for the record... Cheers
I would highly recommend a first-time buyer research geometry and their fit before walking into a LBS to buy (or going online.) A first-time buyer is likely to buy from a shop they can try out bikes. This can be a problem for two reasons: 1) their newness to riding means flexibility hasn't been developed and 2) unless they are a median size the bike shop will try to unload what they have instead of the correct size. From my survey of my LBS I find short people like me, are likely to be sold a bike larger than they need. They stock nothing smaller than medium frames and have lots of large and XLs. When I bought my first race bike long ago, the dealer had medium, 54" frames and tried to convince me that was my size even though I had reservations after sitting on it. I ended up bringing it back a few days later and forcing them to source me a 50" (this was back when seat tube length was the measure and comparable between bikes.)
Good point on handlebar width. We seem obsessed about going as aero as possible so as narrow as possible. Handlebar width should be governed by the width of the shoulders.
Yes, I seem to recall a few years ago your ideal handlebar width was related to the width of your shoulders, as opposed to these days, narrow is more aero and faster...
Yeeeeeeesssssss! I almost bought a bike last week from a friend that is a Medium. My current bike is an Extra Small because I'm short short. I could ride the Medium, it was beautiful, a great deal -- but it felt unstable, I couldn't control it and the seat post was non-existent. This video is hella helpful. Thanks!
Great summary. So many people want to change their saddle when it's the height that is the issue... among other complaints. understanding how to fit is really useful.
9 times out of 10 the saddle is not the issue, but a problem elsewhere. Could be seat too high or setback wrongly (very common), cleats set wrongly, reach too long or low. People blame the saddle when it's rarely the issue.
All these formulas for bike fitting are interesting, but in the end, I just make adjustments to the bike until it’s comfortable. I’m 6 foot three, and I recently bought a 60 cm Cannondale. I added a new seat, 40 cm handlebars and… an 80 mm inverted, stem! The bike is now very comfortable on the hoods and on the drops.
When no one talked about these things, in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a guy in Miami, Nelson Diaz, who talked about high cadence for climbing. When Lance Armstrong started to climb at 90+ rpm, Nelson told me: he's still missing something: his crank length is too long, which makes the circumference longer and the efficiency lower. With shorter crank length you reduce the time during the pedal stroke when the power applied is meaningless, on the top and on the bottom. Nelson experimented with crank lengths down to 152 mm.
Very right. My legs are proportionally much too long in relation to my torso. I had to get a bigger frame (caad12) with a top tube that was too long for my reach. I swapped the standard stem for a 60 mm, together with a more narrow handlebar and this solved the issue. In contrast to what many people say, I have no steering issues whatsoever, the bike is not too nervous.
@Jan Willem Kullenburg - I'm in the same position as you but according to the bit fit I have had you have gone down completely the wrong route. You need a smaller frame with a shorter top tube to match your shorter upper body. Longer legs are accommodated by longer seat post. Although you assert otherwise a 60mm stem is way too short. I agree with Phil Burt that if you need shorter than 90mm then you are on too big a frame.
@@ashleyhouse9690 With a smaller frame my seatpost became too long. I am happy with my bike as it is, ride qualities are incredible and I have never had any injuries.
The short stem can make you twitchy when you do a sprint. You have to watch shaking the handlebars. It's not like the riding geometry changes, just how your input to it changes.
Hi Si and Phil. Thanks Phil for another educating video. Your chats are great. A few years ago now, I was having trouble with my shoulders forever aching. It felt like I had my hands apart on the 40cm bars. I got a 36cm bar and everything got so much better. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers are so reluctant to cater for smaller or less muscular riders. There are so few 36cm bars available. Perhaps that points at a man-centric industry.
I appreciate the input about bar width. What really help Simon's video about making your bike more comfortable and Emma's video for shorter riders. Thanks for the video.
I'm in between L and XL. I'm 6'1" with long legs. Currently, I ride a 58cm road bike, a 20.5" Mountain bike. My road bike fit seems fine but I could probably make a 56cm work. The mountain bike fit is more challenging. I have a Surly Karate Monkey with 27" wheels and a Scott Scale 970 with 29" wheels. Both are XL/20" frame sizes. I don't have as much top tube clearance as I'd like--less than 1/2 inch--but the L/18" frame size felt too bunched up and I'd have to raise the seatpost almost to max to get my leg extended. I guess I could've put a longer stem on but the XL/20" fits fine minus the lack of clearance
The problem for me as a short rider is that most small road bikes come with 170mm cranks and 40 cm bars. My gravel bike came with 165mm cranks and 38 cm bars. Same frame size and manufacturer as my road bike. The gravel bike fits me way better and I feel I get a lot more power through the pedals. Of course the geometry is different, but still.
They probably ran out of stock on shorter cranks. I also prefer shorter cranks. While calculators tell me I should get 170mm crank and I have average leg proportions, my highest average speeds, unbeatable PRs, and one KOM was all done on a 150mm crank on a kid's bike. It's hard to find these, especially if you're on a tight budget looking for cheaper options. I found a few cheap 150mm cranks made for kid's bikes but unsure if they can be installed on an adult gravel bike.
I have commented before on this but I have finally worked out for myself that my frame size is wrong. I am on an S frame. I finally had a photo taken of me on my bike with the peddle at almost its full height / top of arc. A few degrees off the top of arc my knee is actually in line with my hip and my thigh parallel to the ground. If I could have managed to get the top of the arc my knee would have been slightly above my hip. The reason I don't ride on the drops is I knee myself in the belly. All courtesy of professional bike fitters. Same issue with a Colnago and Giant. The most expensive bikes I ever bought.
One problem is that manufacturers measuring frame size by seat tube length can vary. The horizontal top tube length is more telling. The bikes that fit me the best, when I put my elbow at the nose of the midrail saddle, my fingertips are at the midlength of the stem. The Egyptians called it a cubit. I can quickly check any bike in the shop for ballpark sizing without even mounting the bike. Where your fingertips meet the stem might vary from mine, though.
I started off with my current bike in 2007 with a 90mm stem, inverted. I'm glad the bike shop did this, because subsequent improvements in lower back flexibility despite some degeneration that was spotted on MRI have left me with a 110mm stem the right way up in combination with slightly greater seat height.
Bike vendors are certainly complicating things for cyclists with the trend towards the integrated/proprietary bar & stem combinations. I experienced this with my Pinarello after a bike fit when I wanted to change my stem length. I was limited to stem choices exclusively from the vendor or to go with an integrated bar/stem combo, again, exclusively from the vendor (and very expensive). Great video!
I've gotten so I don't even bother looking at frame sizes anymore. I just look for a frame with a 73 degree seat angle, and a 58cm top tube length (or virtual length) If it has those numbers, I'll know that it will fit, when built up. One of the frames that I ride is listed as a 55.5cm frame (with a severe sloping top tube) another is a size 59cm. Both fit equally well. One thing I learned, the hard way, four decades ago, is to not adjust your reach by moving your saddle back and forth, on the rails.
@@warwickp8055the shorter bars allow you to not pull in the distance to the top of the bar, which helps the handling in that bar position (only). But in general you are correct, reduced reach bars - while a good thing - don't destroy handling any more or less than a short stem in the more common hand positions.
I'm normally proportioned and I got myself two sizes smaller frame and I still end up using the shortest stem available!🤣But I wouldn't want to get smaller frame as I'll lose the ability to put two normal sized bottles in the frame triangle. I actually ended up loving the short (32mm) DH MTB stem on a road bike for a lot of reasons. The top of my drop bar is only 40mm lower than the saddle. May not seem aero but it allows me to ride in the drops comfortably most of the time. And if I put my hands on the hoods or ramps, I can sit in a nearly upright posture, which is safer than riding hands off to stretch your back during a very long ride. Love my unconventional road fit. It's fast, agile, and comfortable even in non-stop centuries (if you didn't have to stop to pee).
In general, most of us men don't want to ride a smaller bike out of ego. I moved down a size on my new BMC and I've never been happier, or rode better and felt great.
Got my copy of Phil Burt's book ,Bike Fit 2nd edition, delivered today, just as GCN uploaded this "How to get the perfect bike fit you". 🤣🤣 Now I will double check everything mentioned. 😉
I got to 6 min and realized I couldn't understand anything he said, so started over with closed captioning on ;-) The thing about setting up a Bike-Fit is I understand all the variables, but I have never understood the "Order of Priority" and knowing that you start at saddle height and fore and aft was VERY helpful to confirm that! I would like to see a VERY detailed video about the differences in power/comfort/kinesthetics of saddle height and its fore and aft so we know the most desirable math and then what lose with the compromises.
Great point about the bars often being too wide. I'm hearing more and mor from bike fitters that it's very common for bikes to come with bars that are too wide. Across many different brands.
I had a 52cm Merida Ride 4000, picked based on height and some other basic measurements. I had no end of problems with numb hands and 'other bits' and after a fitting check at my LBS, shorter stem, seat slid forward, etc, it was determined I have longer leg:upper body ratio. I replaced it with a 50 cm and was waaay better. It was a PITA when I bought a Trek Emonda SL7 because it has a limit on how high the seat tube can go on the integrated post...which required buying the longer seat tube. Never looked back.
20 years ago my bike fit was very different from today. And some massage or a chiropractor may change many a sore back and neck. Allways I bring tools to adjust sadle. And there is one fit that is right for head wind, another for wind from behind, climbing a.s.o.. - riding alone or social, racing or zone2. Where do I spend the most time. It will always be a compromise, I think
As someone who sits right in between 54 and 56cm, I go for a 54cm with a couple of spacers under the stem and a little more seat post out. Mainly to make sure the crossbar stand over height isn’t too high. I’ll then run 100mm or 110mm stem and 40cm bars. Good to see that I’ve probably got the fit about right. Damn those short legs from the 70’s though!
I was definitely happy I got some neutral measurements before buying some of my more recent bikes. The problem I discovered was that being short, with short legs and a long torso, most manufacturers didn't make a frame small enough whilst also long enough for me!
You can normally jump on something very racy if you are short legged, as their stretched out position is helpful for you. If you have long legs, short torso then that's harder... gravel frame possibly
Good man. After switching to a new bike last August had exactly the issues with setback and handlebar width. Took me some time to figure out. Even tough Stack and Reach in bike geometry was similar, only slightly more sportive, had massive lower back pain with the new bike.
5’6 Short legs here. When I sit at a table I’m just as tall as the tallest person. I fit 3 bike sizes 49cm, 52cm, 54cm. Ideally 52cm. My first century ride was on a 54cm and I was fine because I had already shortened and narrowed bar to 380/80 from 420/110, zero seatpost, 165mm crankset.
i got a bike fit 3 weeks ago, and the conclusion was that i had the upperbody from someone that is 1.90m and the lower body in terms of lengt of a teenager ( i am 1.65m). so my bike always needed to be adjusted and i could get a 53 one uptill a 57 on and stil fits my measurments... the perfect bike for me would be a bike with the support bar at a down angle so my upper body has the right position.
I think that the worst part of bike fitting is that spec is fixed. If you need a narrower/wider bar, there's no option to swap. Pay up $$$. Need a different crank length. Pay up $$$. Saddle not right? Pay up $$$. And EVERY bike gets the steerer tube cut, then it goes on the shop floor or is already packed in a box before it left Asia. Shops and online just aren't thoughtful and flexible. It's a PITA...or shoulders, or neck...
Completely agree I always have to change my crankset to 160, bars to 360, and a zero setback seatpost. Making all those changes is quite pricey and ridiculous considering the bike is brand new. Last bike I brought a frame and had it built up. It's much cheaper and you get exactly what you want on the bike
I recently did the same mistake on the second hand bike i bought. Saddle too far back, had to put a shorter stem on 8cm. Bike felt too twitchy. Move the saddle forward and got a lower 11 cm stem. Massive difference and so much better to ride.
The most important thing is to start with the right bike frame. Too many step "up" when between two sizes. You can easily make a small frame fit a larger rider - never the opposite. Also, a larger frame is heavier, so bad choice all around.
@@galenkehler Depends what “smaller” means for the rider. If the difference is a 56 or a 54, the geometry is probably not really sacrificing anything to fit 700c wheels. Those are probably the most common sizes for male cyclists. It’s true that for overlap isn’t ideal, but to be honest it’s not really a fit issue and pretty manageable depending on how bad it is. Some toe overlap is quite common with more aggressive geometries. Smaller frames often feel more agile and have lighter handling. I’m happy to accept some spacers if it means not feeling overly stretched out.
It would be interesting to have several bike fits back to back with different bike fitters just to see how many new stems get sold to you. Adjust your bike yourself, if it hurts after 50 miles, you've got it wrong.. simples. And if you're buying a new bike, the best size for you is usually what the shop has in stock.
One problem with this channel is you all show and ride "slammed" positions. Which usually means a smaller frame has been chosen for lower stack, where the reach is adjusted with longer (and negative) stem set-ups. It's what everyone sees in the bike make's catalogs as well. So this becomes a "must have" to be cool, only to suffer on the bike simply by riding it... much less suffering while actually getting fit (and enjoying it). This "pro" position can be handled by elite athletes who log the training miles and must be aero for competition, but for the cyclists who simply want to get out in mother nature and get or stay fit... it's a recipe for avoidance. I'm 56 and I ride both my drop bar bikes with the bar tops pretty even with my saddle. I've been riding since age 14 and when I was younger, I did ride a little more slammed, but not as much as your bikes (or the catalog bikes). As a bike mechanic who also fits and sells bikes, I can assure you that a majority of folks riding or wanting to get into riding, cannot and will not tolerate a slammed position. That's one of the first things I mention when selling... the industry's false narrative of showing slammed bikes because it simply looks cool and helps them sell more. I also work to size up when the customer's height and inseam fall in between sizes. Long legs while falling in the middle of the size guides is another substantial reason to size up.
i just find it all confusing, i had a bike fit years ago and they said at 5'10" i should be on a small or medium nothing larger than 54. I ride a 55 or 56 and can sit in it all day but I do get restless hands and sometimes after 60+ miles sore inner thigh. But i used to have a 53/54 giant and felt so cramped on it, developed bad knees after short distance, just felt wrong and i always felt i was sitting bolt upright and look like a adult on a childs bike. So know i tweak my bike myself and only recently been looking at the bars as a place to make improvements. I am a heavy rider as well, 95+KG but fit.
Most bikes come with bars that are too wide. In addition to stem length and angle, bars, cranks and saddle (contact points) adjustments are the most basic changes one should always make on every bike purchase.
It's good to note that some of the gnarlier gravel/drop bar bikes intentionally use a shorter stem and longer top tube combo to try to offset slacker geometry so that it is easier to steer. Stuff like the BMC URS or the Salsa Cutthroat do this and run 70-80mm stems
It's funny, these "rules of thumb" aren't right for everyone. I have a long tube and put on a 70mm stem, and it was better than the suggested 90 to 110mm because it allowed me to make sharper turns. I didn't experience any "twitchyness" or anything like that, which so many people said would happen on the internet. It just made since to me for my particular bike and how i like to sit on it. Also important to note along with thus, is that I have a excellent quality bike, and it is designed for racing!
So informative and helpful. Want Phil to fit my bike to me now! If Si’s cycling career takes a wrong turn - he’d be a great bike salesman/fitter. Great show. Can Phil do one on bike position after knee surgery (TKR) Pleeeeeeeaaaaassssseeeee?
I find moving my cleats back and forth will affect the stem length and saddle fore and aft. I think this is overlooked many of the times when considering position. Very few times in the past 40 years have had it dialed in. And when I change shoes... that magic is lost. Have a dynamic system where all the variable can be manipulated real time would be a precious joule. And then get the item to replicate that geometry.
No bicycle truly fits me properly, as I am 2.04m 135 kg, but I have still enjoyed riding for 50+ years. My slightly smaller brother has, by contrast, some amazing rides that fit him like a glove.
Bike fitting is dynamic and should be related to your experience in cycling. If you ride 3 times a week, for at least 40min each ride, and been doing it for like 3-4 years on the same bike, you surely have adjusted the fitment for at least 6 times during this period. The only thing you probably won’t change is the frame, but reach, seat height, seat tilt, seat fore-aft, handlebar width, crank length, will change according to your experience.
Plenty of people ride more than that and never adjust a thing. They just go with the initial, unprecise fit him the bike shop and never think of it. Plenty of others just lift their seat way too high and drop their bars all the way thinking it's faster
And as your age, fitness and riding style change, so will your ideal position. Like the ideal training plan, it's always a moving target and what worked last year, or even 3 months ago may well not work today.
@@jabba0975 barring injury and lots of aging, your fit(for performance vs going to a wind tunnel)shouldn't change much once you near your peak fitness/ability. If your fit is changing every 3-6 months, you have a bad fit.
@@veganpotterthevegan I try to avoid changing position on a given bike, actually. I switch bikes for different applications. I don't want the same position on my mtb as road bike. And I wouldn't want the aggressive, low position on the fast bike if I was going for an easy 3 hour spin with friends. If I didn't have different bikes, I would probably want to raise/lower the handlebars at least once a week for different types of rides. YMMV.
@jabba0975 jj who has the same fit on a mountain and road bike? Nobody fits road bikes to the flat part of the bar on drop bars. But your first comment didn't have much to do with what you just said now...
For me it's all about crank length! As a very short person on a xxs bike the best you can get is 165mm still way to big for xxs bike /person . Currently on a 57 variety 13" frame 26" wheel , crank 140mm taken from a Argos challenge folding bike . 170mm cranks on a xxs bike is the bike industry taking the p**s .
I get 10k into a ride when the numbness in the lower region starts. Completely numb and turns the 'parts' dark red. For years, this is how I've ridden. I've had a fit done, numerous saddles, shorts and tweaks. Never had a full ride without numbness.
If in between sizes choose the smaller. If you get smaller frame you have more room for adjustment compare to large frame. Learned in it the hard and expensive way. I don't want to have a bike fit since it is expensive in my country. So i bought bikes basing on the info about the inseam so it came out 52. So i even bought bike size 53 because the stack is still manageable but the reach is too much because large bikes comes with long stems. So i learned my bike size fit by buying and trying it on long rides. If there's pain every after the ride then bike size is incorrect. If only i got bike fit at first then i would be buying too much bike and selling those are not fitted. Not considering those extra short stem that i bought just to fit. I remember i bought the bianchi that the person sold me as size 52. When the bike arrives it is size 53. I don't have problems with the height of the bike. But the reach is too much. The stem is 120mm so i changed it to 90mm but still not enough. Exact fit of stem for me is 70mm and finding one is a chore aswell. So i was able to find one tried it and it was fine. I really love it. The ride comfort is very nice. I can ride very long without pain. So i guess my torso is shorter. Now that i was able to get a bike fit my actual bike size should be size 50. So yeah. Better to get a bike fit than spend more. But for me experience taught me more information about different bikes. Taught me things that only experience will teach you. And also most bikes frame now a days doesn't have exact proportion. Unlike the classic which sometime have 52st/52tt or 52st/53tt now bike have 46st/53tt. So you really have to get flexible enough to get comfortable on the bike or else get an endurance or mountain bike which has an upright position.
I would suggest working on your core and make sure you hit most muscles, not only the rectus abdominis. Strong core makes a huge difference. Also work on your back (pullups or inverted rows if it's too hard). Cheers
Im 5'11" and normally ride a size 56. Well recently i found several bikes i liked and i settled on the size 58 because it was actually the most comfortable. The reach didnt feal too long and i didnt feel any back pain or other issues. A fitter told me it wasnt so muth the hight of the bike but it was the comfort you feel in the bikes cockpit. Several people have made it there business to tell me the bike was too big for me. I can fully stand flat footed over the bike with my feet on the ground and it just touches my "man parts" but not uncomfortably. Am i wrong in my love for this bike? Should i even bother listening to these people who think they know whats right for me? Thanks for any help you can provide.
I really enjoy GCN’s content. The guys are really good overall, but occasionally I have a chuckle when they refer to “retro” this and that and seem amazed at 1990’s technology and how riders rode them. 😂
Im going to disagree with him on short stems. I'm 4'11 and most manufacturers reach is to long for their smallest size. Pinarello is the best for short people when it comes to sizing. It's the only top tier bike that I won't have to compromise fit. The difference in reach between Pinarello and other manufacturers is anywhere from 20mm to 30mm. For someone my size the max reach they would consider would be 360mm. I prefer a reach of 350mm. All the other brands reach usually starts at 370mm
Ooh I was hoping for another Ollie Beckingsale. I probably have watched that video more than any other GCN video, including devious ways to beat your mates.
I wish smaller bikes came with 170cranks or less... Bought a second hand cx bike with 172.5 and that feels huge. Yes, the frame size is correct, I even put a longer stem on it (the one on it was quite short). Also I put the handlebars down. It feels restrictive not because I can't ride in that position, just because my knees come up way too high. I might look at shorter cranks in the future, because all my other bikes have 170 and that feels definetly better, I might even considder 165. That will help my hips because they are really weirdly not allowing me to bend them to more than 90 degrees, which is not ideal for a cyclist (it just feels like I can't bend further, it does not hurt whatsoever).
Now I know not everyone can be a great orator, and i'm sure I myself would be a bundle of nerves before the great Si Richardson but for pete's sake, it sounds like you're talking to bleedin' Rowley Birkin QC! I'm doing mental backflips trying to make sense of what he's saying and i'm already very familiar with the terminology here. This is the most rambling, stream-of-consciousness approach to this topic i've ever seen. ..."Leading" bike fitter? 3 years?! Well nonetheless, I do think his philosophy is overall a good one. Comfort is key, both in terms of performance and avoiding injury. ....said nothin' about shoes though eh :P
What's your most common bike fit issue? 🤔 Let us know in the comment section below! 💬
a buddy has long legs, his knees keeps hitting the handle bar. His solution was 165 cranks
Hand numbness. Bought a Diverge and that seems to have solved it.
Last bike I bought the options on frame size was L M S. We used to have cm sizes of like 2 at a time. What happened?
Using canyons online bike size calculator!
I've had a good fit on my existing bike for years. Canyon estimate the next size up which has an enormous increase in stack and reach.
@@jack002tuber depends on the brand. Most still have those increments.
you should get one of your average joe riders in for a bike fit, so Phil can demonstrate common problems people face
That would be good ,and maybe Phil coulds take the marbles out of his mouth.
@@brunoderoberto5281depends on manufacturer
Even better would be an average Joan.
Our channel has a super helpful product that makes Bike Fitting easy. Check out our Perfect Fit System Saddle Selector ™️, it takes sit-bone measurements via pressure mapping and matches them to the best fitting bike saddle. Check it out on our RUclips channel.
@@earnmoreskimoreprobably a bad placed microphone. You can hear the difference at 2:55
Important note here as a cycling physio myself: You can definetly make changes to the bike to fit you better BUT you can also work on your body to fit the bike better. Flexibility/mobility and core muscle endurance are really important factors for a successful bikefit. Also unless the fit is competely off, small differences won´t be a deal breaker; the human body is adaptable and can deal with variations as long as they aren´t absurd. Trust your body and give it time to adjust before any drastic changes.
A cycling, physio OR a cycling-physio ? Or both?
I agree, as my core got stronger and I got more flexible, I did changes to my bike fit for more aero positions, particularly to improve comfort on the drops. My pedaling technique also changed which required me to bring saddle to a more forward position and/or tilted down to keep my butt from being shoved backward against the seat.
@@transkryption Both
best comment
when I'm not hitting the gym for two weeks, I also start to notice that on the bike. Especially in the lower back and the shoulders.
About eight years ago I had a professional bike fit with Garry Kirk. I went to Garry with lots of pains - neck, shoulders, wrists, lower back, knees, pins and needles in my feet.
After a few hours, buying a new saddle, narrower bar and shorter stem, some other adjustments I was pain free. I could cycle for hours in drops without any pain. I was able to generate more power - FTP “increased” by 80W!!!
Last year when considering a new bike I went to see Garry again as my needs and mobility changed.
The bike I got is a size 56 cm. ALL manufacturers recommend a 54cm frame with the dimensions they ask for. But none checks how flexible you are, what your goal is, arm length and more.
I have a bike that suits me perfectly.
I said it many times to my club mates that money spent on bike fit was the best bike related investment ever.
Exactly what happened to me: recommend 54, lot of pains, switched to 56, end of pains
Phil's fit philosophy is spot on...and will summarize what I believe based upon several decades of riding....
- Narrower handlebars are generally more comfortable and faster and yes handlebar width affects reach. Larger bikes....I ride a XL...generally come with too wide a handlebar.
- For an aging road cyclist even with longer legs...I am Si's size...shorter cranks are better on multiple levels from hip impingement to pelvis angle on the saddle and ability to rotate the torso down and ride more aero.
- Frame size is NOT necessarily tied to body size. I am Si's size and I ride 1 frame size up for more comfort versus more aero. Lance who is 5'9 ish raced on a 58cm frame throughout his career and Si at 6'1" rides a 56.
- Endurance geometry...what Phil said again, works best for the 'average' rider and not ex-pros like Si. Pros were pros for a reason. Pros throughout their riding career, rode out of the wind with less steep torso angle than most mortals can tolerate. I could ride Si's bike maybe even without a saddle adjustment but after 20 miles my body would hurt because I am older and less flexible, and I am fit.
I've said this before on previous bike fit videos but the biggest problem is the bike manufacturers themselves. The recommended size for a lot of people based on height and/or inseam is generally wrong and the bike will then also be supplied with the wrong size stem, handlebars and crank to match some arbitrary average figure. I would never buy another bike off the shelf now as I have to replace so many parts it just makes more sense to buy the right size frame from the start and build it up from there.
I reference a 525 (520-530) effective top tube or so. I never go off sizing charts. Because not all of them recommend the same sized (in terms of objective metrics like stack reach seat tube angle) bike for the same height, so what is that worth even?
Completely agree with this...I used to just buy the frame and build up...I've bought a bike off the shelf and I'm replacing items...ridiculous.
66 inches, 30in inseam. Trek says I'm a 52. But their 52s minimum seat height is longer than my inseam 😅
I just went back to 400mm bars from 440 that came standard on my L frame Merida, and its made a huge difference to my reach. bike feels so much more comfortable now.
It's really a shame that bike companies sell their bikes with to wide bars.
440 is for nearly all humans to
wide.
@5amba
I'm not that big...but I ride a 46 enve ses on my 56 emonda and a 46 (48 center to center at the hoods) ritchey venturemax on my custom sized ti monstercross bike
@@stinkyfungus 7/10 men needs 38-40
you are one of the 3
*or you ride a bar to wide 🤷🏻♂️
@@5amba manufactures do it on purpose so you have to spend extra money on parts. ie a smaller width handle bar. They know what they're doing. they're trying to maximise profits.
Same, I switched to 40cm bars from 42cm on a large (58) Trek Domane and it's a world of difference.
Any time you have Phil on, it's such a wealth of incredibly valuable information. Thank you GCN and Phil!
As a short person, easily the biggest improvements in comfort on the bike have been 1) smaller handlebar width and 2) shorter crank length. It seems that so many stock bikes come with the same bar width and crank length from XXS Frames to Medium frames, despite the fact that the riders will have significantly different bodies.
Very much this. Manufacturers seem to ignore these parameters, even though they make a huge difference in comfort and endurance
So I have struggled with my bike recently, I’m 6’2 riding a 59cm frame. Just adjusted my seat and it’s already made a world a difference. I’m excited to make more adjustments now!
Thank you Phil and thank you GCN
Adjusted how...?
First thing I do on any new bike is to take off a shoe, sit on the bike, pedal backwards with my heel on the spindle. If My leg maxxes out at the bottom, I'm about there. Might need to raise the saddle like 1/2" Done.
Good for you! I learned to do my own bike fit from information on line and experimentation. If you don't aleady, try doing your own bike work too, you will see that most of it is not as difficult as bike mechanics want to charge lots of money for
@@janeblogs324 so I’ve just moved the seat forward, probably by about 4cm, feels so much different.
Fit is such an individual thing. I'm the same height as you but ride a 56 with a 130mm stem and a high seat post (looks like Si's bike), but I used to race and my body's comfortable that way. I'm guessing your frame is probably a bit too large, but you could be one of those guys with a long torso or long legs and need the extra tube length, like they mention in the video.
Years ago, an UK cycling magazine sent a guy with his bike to 4-5 different bike fitters. Results were surprisingly different with saddle height/seatback, stem length, and handlebar width ranging +/-10mm or more...
This supports my idea of being your own bike fitter. You know what works for you
Not surprising. A combination of the psychology of each bike fitter wanting to make a change to show they've done something for their money and the fact that everyone has different levels of flexibility so what works for one won't work for another. Bike fits are a bit like new bits of kit, no one ever admits to wasting their money. There's plenty of information out there so there's not much you can't do yourself.
I really don't care what the numbers say, the only person who's going to know where I'm flexible and where I'm comfortable is me. Play optometrist (number one, or number 2...) for a few hours on a Saturday and you'll figure it out!
@@bikeman123 Man. You said that perfect. This has also been my opinion. It has taken me exactly 1 year since I started riding to get my fit to where I am happy today. I could have paid for a fit, but for me, I wanted to learn how to do my own fit. I see it as part of the learning process of the bike in general, and not about saving money. Throughout the entire year, my fit changed because my body kept changing from riding. Can you imagine how many fits I would had to have? Now that my body is better prepared, I won't be doing anymore adjustments! One more note....sometimes articles have the correct Information. I read somewhere that for a person 5'11, that is the only height that has a suggested known crank length, which is 172.5mm. I wanted to try 165's (to see about opening up the hip) which were good, until I tried to ride out of the saddle on a super steep hill. I went back to 172.5, and raised the seat to compensate. So I say when looking at Information, really examine the source, which is another problem with finding a bike fitter. How many really know exactly what they are doing, and your body tells you what Is right or wrong anyway by experimenting, being careful not to injure yourself while doing so.
@@jack002tuber exactly.
I'm 6 ft 0 inches and also have a 59 frame.and what I did in the beginning is made sure my saddle height is adjusted correctly in order for me to have a comfortable experience. I've not had any awkward issues for months.
I'm also 6 feet with fairly high inseam and size 11.5 shoes (which I think is often overlooked as a factor) and I'm a little put off by the comments saying that 59 is too large. Though I'm riding a 58 endurance bike for two years now with a couple of 200km rides under my belt and didn't notice any real issues other than numb toes, which I fixed with new shoes and moving back the cleats.
Can highly recommend James Thomas in Richmond - just a legend in bike fitting. Excellent videos on Cade Media too.
But manufacturers are at fault here. A client should be able to select bar width, casette, saddle, stem length, crank length BEFORE you buy....all stock items that can be used as the bike is built!!
I'm 60 years old now. Back in 2017 I bought the last 2015 Masi Gran Coursa on the showroom floor at Chainwheel Drive bicycle shop in Clearwater Florida. At the top of the down tube is a sticker that says 59. I test rode the bike 3 times over a month, thinking it was perhaps a bit short along the top tube. The price was so great that I bought it anyway. I set the seat back a little bit and as I've ridden it, I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much perfect for me. I've never been close to professional as a cyclist, this is the first 'go-fast' bike I've ever owned. My goal when shopping for such a bike was to get one worthy of, at least, a Shimano 105 set, and thats what this one came with. The rims it came with were Mercury and at the 11th month on a 12 month warranty those rims were cracking, and the spokes were pulling through. Masi were very kind to replace the wheels with DT Swiss 460s and they are awesome. Much stiffer and definitely stronger. I don't know how I could be happier with this purchase. I absolutely love it 😀. I just wish I had this bike when I was 19. A nearly $1400 bike for $800 with a Shimano 105 set and a bike thats definitely worthy, in my humble opinion. MAYBE one day I upgraded to Ultegra. But I'm not really trying to eek out a couple more mph without sponsorship 🤣 Excellent bike. I dont really blame Masi or Murcury for the first pair of wheels. They had fewer spokes and were probably more for a few races than to go as many miles as I did. The DT Swiss are very nice 👌, strong and stiff. At about 6 feet tall and ~200 lbs this bike is great 👍. FUN times and fitness control 😀 Oh by the way with the 52 tooth chain ring my record top speed is 48mph 😃. I tried like heck to get 50mph but my legs can't pedal any faster and maybe a 54 tooth chain ring would be a bit much for an / this amateur 🤔 😅
Great 👍 vid. Thanks for the post.
As a relatively new cyclist, cycling solo. It’s always been hard to tell if my fit is good, bad or anything in between. It can be hard to justify a bike fit if you are new to cycling because it’s a decent investment you might think is spent better elsewhere. I’ve never felt a bike has fitted me great, but I used myvelofit recently and done it at home on my turbo and I thought I was starting from a “decent” position and it changed me massively. I feel much better now but I was always moving my saddle lower and lower and my bars up and up and this done the total opposite, saddle up by almost 50mm which seems nuts! But it just worked. I’d have never got to that position myself
I purchased a bike from an online only manufacturer. I measured my old bike and compared it with the new bike specs and purchased based on that. When I got the bike delivered, I set the saddle height and lowered the bars 10mm. I've been very comfortable for 3 years now.
Something I learned of value....know your saddle. Some saddles (SELLE SMP Triathalon) are designed in a way that the back of the saddle is raised to where it looks as if it is higher than the front due to the padding in the back, but is designed that way so that when you sit your bones on it, you sit evenly, and the cut-out relieves pressure and has a short and curved nose for rolling your hips forward dropping down into the drops. When off of the bike, the nose looks like it is angled upwards, which is the correct way with this saddle. You will find this out because if you position it using a leveler on the saddle back edge to front tip, your body wants to slide forward because of the back end padding! So you have to angle it a little upwards.
100% accurate !
Stem length - my Specialized Diverge was already the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden, but a bike fit recommended changing the stem from 80mm as standard to 100mm and the difference is massive.
That's cool, if I may second that, from Italy but after a good few years in the Uk back then, I ride a now legendary 'cousin' to the Diverge, the AWOL, and it feels like sliding on a sofa, but sliding quite fast for a steel workhorse that is.
I was working in a seaside town on the Riviera and l got a second cheaper bike, loving British ones I got shipped a very typical tourer, a Roux Etape 150. Very similar geometries but one is 61cm, the latter is 58.
I adjusted stem and bar sizes, it's so interesting how (little though) each bike feels. Both awesome in their own way. Just for the record... Cheers
I would highly recommend a first-time buyer research geometry and their fit before walking into a LBS to buy (or going online.) A first-time buyer is likely to buy from a shop they can try out bikes. This can be a problem for two reasons: 1) their newness to riding means flexibility hasn't been developed and 2) unless they are a median size the bike shop will try to unload what they have instead of the correct size. From my survey of my LBS I find short people like me, are likely to be sold a bike larger than they need. They stock nothing smaller than medium frames and have lots of large and XLs. When I bought my first race bike long ago, the dealer had medium, 54" frames and tried to convince me that was my size even though I had reservations after sitting on it. I ended up bringing it back a few days later and forcing them to source me a 50" (this was back when seat tube length was the measure and comparable between bikes.)
A mate of mine needs a bike fit as his bike's always half a wheel longer than anyone else's !
Good point on handlebar width. We seem obsessed about going as aero as possible so as narrow as possible. Handlebar width should be governed by the width of the shoulders.
Yes, I seem to recall a few years ago your ideal handlebar width was related to the width of your shoulders, as opposed to these days, narrow is more aero and faster...
Yeeeeeeesssssss! I almost bought a bike last week from a friend that is a Medium. My current bike is an Extra Small because I'm short short. I could ride the Medium, it was beautiful, a great deal -- but it felt unstable, I couldn't control it and the seat post was non-existent. This video is hella helpful. Thanks!
Great summary. So many people want to change their saddle when it's the height that is the issue... among other complaints. understanding how to fit is really useful.
9 times out of 10 the saddle is not the issue, but a problem elsewhere. Could be seat too high or setback wrongly (very common), cleats set wrongly, reach too long or low. People blame the saddle when it's rarely the issue.
All these formulas for bike fitting are interesting, but in the end, I just make adjustments to the bike until it’s comfortable. I’m 6 foot three, and I recently bought a 60 cm Cannondale. I added a new seat, 40 cm handlebars and… an 80 mm inverted, stem! The bike is now very comfortable on the hoods and on the drops.
Watched the video, moved the seat on the stationary bike and WOW. Thanks!
When no one talked about these things, in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a guy in Miami, Nelson Diaz, who talked about high cadence for climbing. When Lance Armstrong started to climb at 90+ rpm, Nelson told me: he's still missing something: his crank length is too long, which makes the circumference longer and the efficiency lower. With shorter crank length you reduce the time during the pedal stroke when the power applied is meaningless, on the top and on the bottom. Nelson experimented with crank lengths down to 152 mm.
Very right. My legs are proportionally much too long in relation to my torso. I had to get a bigger frame (caad12) with a top tube that was too long for my reach. I swapped the standard stem for a 60 mm, together with a more narrow handlebar and this solved the issue. In contrast to what many people say, I have no steering issues whatsoever, the bike is not too nervous.
@Jan Willem Kullenburg - I'm in the same position as you but according to the bit fit I have had you have gone down completely the wrong route. You need a smaller frame with a shorter top tube to match your shorter upper body. Longer legs are accommodated by longer seat post. Although you assert otherwise a 60mm stem is way too short. I agree with Phil Burt that if you need shorter than 90mm then you are on too big a frame.
@@ashleyhouse9690 With a smaller frame my seatpost became too long. I am happy with my bike as it is, ride qualities are incredible and I have never had any injuries.
The short stem can make you twitchy when you do a sprint. You have to watch shaking the handlebars. It's not like the riding geometry changes, just how your input to it changes.
Hi Si and Phil. Thanks Phil for another educating video. Your chats are great.
A few years ago now, I was having trouble with my shoulders forever aching. It felt like I had my hands apart on the 40cm bars. I got a 36cm bar and everything got so much better.
It is unfortunate that the manufacturers are so reluctant to cater for smaller or less muscular riders. There are so few 36cm bars available.
Perhaps that points at a man-centric industry.
The bicycle was invented by a man afterall... but I'm a man and I use a 38cm, and will probably go down to a size 36.
Oh bore off karen
I appreciate the input about bar width. What really help Simon's video about making your bike more comfortable and Emma's video for shorter riders. Thanks for the video.
I'm in between L and XL. I'm 6'1" with long legs. Currently, I ride a 58cm road bike, a 20.5" Mountain bike. My road bike fit seems fine but I could probably make a 56cm work.
The mountain bike fit is more challenging. I have a Surly Karate Monkey with 27" wheels and a Scott Scale 970 with 29" wheels. Both are XL/20" frame sizes. I don't have as much top tube clearance as I'd like--less than 1/2 inch--but the L/18" frame size felt too bunched up and I'd have to raise the seatpost almost to max to get my leg extended. I guess I could've put a longer stem on but the XL/20" fits fine minus the lack of clearance
The problem for me as a short rider is that most small road bikes come with 170mm cranks and 40 cm bars. My gravel bike came with 165mm cranks and 38 cm bars. Same frame size and manufacturer as my road bike. The gravel bike fits me way better and I feel I get a lot more power through the pedals. Of course the geometry is different, but still.
They probably ran out of stock on shorter cranks. I also prefer shorter cranks. While calculators tell me I should get 170mm crank and I have average leg proportions, my highest average speeds, unbeatable PRs, and one KOM was all done on a 150mm crank on a kid's bike. It's hard to find these, especially if you're on a tight budget looking for cheaper options. I found a few cheap 150mm cranks made for kid's bikes but unsure if they can be installed on an adult gravel bike.
just curious, how short? I just got a groupset with 170mm cranks and can't wait to try them
@@Chris_Rides_Bikes 170 cm ~ 5’7
I have commented before on this but I have finally worked out for myself that my frame size is wrong. I am on an S frame. I finally had a photo taken of me on my bike with the peddle at almost its full height / top of arc. A few degrees off the top of arc my knee is actually in line with my hip and my thigh parallel to the ground. If I could have managed to get the top of the arc my knee would have been slightly above my hip. The reason I don't ride on the drops is I knee myself in the belly. All courtesy of professional bike fitters. Same issue with a Colnago and Giant. The most expensive bikes I ever bought.
One problem is that manufacturers measuring frame size by seat tube length can vary. The horizontal top tube length is more telling. The bikes that fit me the best, when I put my elbow at the nose of the midrail saddle, my fingertips are at the midlength of the stem. The Egyptians called it a cubit. I can quickly check any bike in the shop for ballpark sizing without even mounting the bike. Where your fingertips meet the stem might vary from mine, though.
I started off with my current bike in 2007 with a 90mm stem, inverted. I'm glad the bike shop did this, because subsequent improvements in lower back flexibility despite some degeneration that was spotted on MRI have left me with a 110mm stem the right way up in combination with slightly greater seat height.
Bike vendors are certainly complicating things for cyclists with the trend towards the integrated/proprietary bar & stem combinations. I experienced this with my Pinarello after a bike fit when I wanted to change my stem length. I was limited to stem choices exclusively from the vendor or to go with an integrated bar/stem combo, again, exclusively from the vendor (and very expensive). Great video!
I've gotten so I don't even bother looking at frame sizes anymore. I just look for a frame with a 73 degree seat angle, and a 58cm top tube length (or virtual length) If it has those numbers, I'll know that it will fit, when built up. One of the frames that I ride is listed as a 55.5cm frame (with a severe sloping top tube) another is a size 59cm. Both fit equally well.
One thing I learned, the hard way, four decades ago, is to not adjust your reach by moving your saddle back and forth, on the rails.
That would be death for your knees, but you know that.
In many cases instead of changing stem from 110 to 90mm, use a shorter reach handlebar. It helps. Without destroying the handling.
What is the difference?
They both pull the bars closer to the Headstem
@@warwickp8055the shorter bars allow you to not pull in the distance to the top of the bar, which helps the handling in that bar position (only). But in general you are correct, reduced reach bars - while a good thing - don't destroy handling any more or less than a short stem in the more common hand positions.
Great to see Phill again, thanks for all the helpful advice, if GCN and Katie K both trust him then so should we :)
I'm normally proportioned and I got myself two sizes smaller frame and I still end up using the shortest stem available!🤣But I wouldn't want to get smaller frame as I'll lose the ability to put two normal sized bottles in the frame triangle. I actually ended up loving the short (32mm) DH MTB stem on a road bike for a lot of reasons. The top of my drop bar is only 40mm lower than the saddle. May not seem aero but it allows me to ride in the drops comfortably most of the time. And if I put my hands on the hoods or ramps, I can sit in a nearly upright posture, which is safer than riding hands off to stretch your back during a very long ride. Love my unconventional road fit. It's fast, agile, and comfortable even in non-stop centuries (if you didn't have to stop to pee).
Love Phil Burt, conveys his knowledge without being patronising. I'd have him do a fit for me before I bought a bus pass!
In general, most of us men don't want to ride a smaller bike out of ego. I moved down a size on my new BMC and I've never been happier, or rode better and felt great.
That's funny because racers tend to ride undersized frames for weight and aero savings
Got my copy of Phil Burt's book ,Bike Fit 2nd edition, delivered today, just as GCN uploaded this "How to get the perfect bike fit you". 🤣🤣 Now I will double check everything mentioned. 😉
I got to 6 min and realized I couldn't understand anything he said, so started over with closed captioning on ;-) The thing about setting up a Bike-Fit is I understand all the variables, but I have never understood the "Order of Priority" and knowing that you start at saddle height and fore and aft was VERY helpful to confirm that! I would like to see a VERY detailed video about the differences in power/comfort/kinesthetics of saddle height and its fore and aft so we know the most desirable math and then what lose with the compromises.
Great point about the bars often being too wide. I'm hearing more and mor from bike fitters that it's very common for bikes to come with bars that are too wide. Across many different brands.
I appreciate content since I’m new to cycling 👍🏼
I had a 52cm Merida Ride 4000, picked based on height and some other basic measurements. I had no end of problems with numb hands and 'other bits' and after a fitting check at my LBS, shorter stem, seat slid forward, etc, it was determined I have longer leg:upper body ratio. I replaced it with a 50 cm and was waaay better. It was a PITA when I bought a Trek Emonda SL7 because it has a limit on how high the seat tube can go on the integrated post...which required buying the longer seat tube. Never looked back.
20 years ago my bike fit was very different from today.
And some massage or a chiropractor may change many a sore back and neck.
Allways I bring tools to adjust sadle.
And there is one fit that is right for head wind, another for wind from behind, climbing a.s.o.. - riding alone or social, racing or zone2.
Where do I spend the most time.
It will always be a compromise, I think
I both ride a saddle that is forward, AND a short stem. The next smaller size bike would be ridiculous for me.
Same here. I'm thinking whether a 0 offset seat post would make sense? Going to try a narrower handlebar first since I've got that around the house
@@SimVanGyseghem Yes, me as well. I'm going to order a narrower handlebar for my gravel bike - was going to do that anyway out of aero concerns.
As someone who sits right in between 54 and 56cm, I go for a 54cm with a couple of spacers under the stem and a little more seat post out. Mainly to make sure the crossbar stand over height isn’t too high. I’ll then run 100mm or 110mm stem and 40cm bars. Good to see that I’ve probably got the fit about right. Damn those short legs from the 70’s though!
After researching best cycle position.
Saddle and pedal stroke is first priority, once that feels good , only then move onto to the handlebar area .
I was definitely happy I got some neutral measurements before buying some of my more recent bikes. The problem I discovered was that being short, with short legs and a long torso, most manufacturers didn't make a frame small enough whilst also long enough for me!
I'm the opposite. All legs, no torso. I feel your pain. For me it's tall enough while also being shorter in length.
You can normally jump on something very racy if you are short legged, as their stretched out position is helpful for you.
If you have long legs, short torso then that's harder... gravel frame possibly
Good man. After switching to a new bike last August had exactly the issues with setback and handlebar width. Took me some time to figure out. Even tough Stack and Reach in bike geometry was similar, only slightly more sportive, had massive lower back pain with the new bike.
5’6 Short legs here. When I sit at a table I’m just as tall as the tallest person. I fit 3 bike sizes 49cm, 52cm, 54cm. Ideally 52cm. My first century ride was on a 54cm and I was fine because I had already shortened and narrowed bar to 380/80 from 420/110, zero seatpost, 165mm crankset.
i got a bike fit 3 weeks ago, and the conclusion was that i had the upperbody from someone that is 1.90m and the lower body in terms of lengt of a teenager ( i am 1.65m). so my bike always needed to be adjusted and i could get a 53 one uptill a 57 on and stil fits my measurments... the perfect bike for me would be a bike with the support bar at a down angle so my upper body has the right position.
Touched on one of the elephants….integrated cockpits can make twiddling with bike fit an costly nightmare.
I think that the worst part of bike fitting is that spec is fixed. If you need a narrower/wider bar, there's no option to swap. Pay up $$$. Need a different crank length. Pay up $$$. Saddle not right? Pay up $$$. And EVERY bike gets the steerer tube cut, then it goes on the shop floor or is already packed in a box before it left Asia. Shops and online just aren't thoughtful and flexible. It's a PITA...or shoulders, or neck...
Completely agree I always have to change my crankset to 160, bars to 360, and a zero setback seatpost. Making all those changes is quite pricey and ridiculous considering the bike is brand new. Last bike I brought a frame and had it built up. It's much cheaper and you get exactly what you want on the bike
I recently did the same mistake on the second hand bike i bought. Saddle too far back, had to put a shorter stem on 8cm. Bike felt too twitchy. Move the saddle forward and got a lower 11 cm stem. Massive difference and so much better to ride.
I bought a new saddle and after that first ride my shoulders were killing me. Moved it back, back more, and the cockpit is perfection.
The most important thing is to start with the right bike frame. Too many step "up" when between two sizes. You can easily make a small frame fit a larger rider - never the opposite. Also, a larger frame is heavier, so bad choice all around.
but too many stem spacer is also looking bad for taller rider
@@stefankristanto6163 not a fan of letting "looks" get in the way of a correct bike fit. YMMV.
Larger frames have less toe overlap, and generally better handling because the company hasn't compromised to try and squeeze 700c wheels.
@@galenkehler 🤣
@@galenkehler Depends what “smaller” means for the rider. If the difference is a 56 or a 54, the geometry is probably not really sacrificing anything to fit 700c wheels. Those are probably the most common sizes for male cyclists.
It’s true that for overlap isn’t ideal, but to be honest it’s not really a fit issue and pretty manageable depending on how bad it is. Some toe overlap is quite common with more aggressive geometries.
Smaller frames often feel more agile and have lighter handling. I’m happy to accept some spacers if it means not feeling overly stretched out.
Always loves Si's in-depth stuff
It would be interesting to have several bike fits back to back with different bike fitters just to see how many new stems get sold to you. Adjust your bike yourself, if it hurts after 50 miles, you've got it wrong.. simples. And if you're buying a new bike, the best size for you is usually what the shop has in stock.
.....there it is!
I think this happened to me. Sold me a large and i think i might be a medium.
One problem with this channel is you all show and ride "slammed" positions. Which usually means a smaller frame has been chosen for lower stack, where the reach is adjusted with longer (and negative) stem set-ups. It's what everyone sees in the bike make's catalogs as well. So this becomes a "must have" to be cool, only to suffer on the bike simply by riding it... much less suffering while actually getting fit (and enjoying it). This "pro" position can be handled by elite athletes who log the training miles and must be aero for competition, but for the cyclists who simply want to get out in mother nature and get or stay fit... it's a recipe for avoidance. I'm 56 and I ride both my drop bar bikes with the bar tops pretty even with my saddle. I've been riding since age 14 and when I was younger, I did ride a little more slammed, but not as much as your bikes (or the catalog bikes). As a bike mechanic who also fits and sells bikes, I can assure you that a majority of folks riding or wanting to get into riding, cannot and will not tolerate a slammed position. That's one of the first things I mention when selling... the industry's false narrative of showing slammed bikes because it simply looks cool and helps them sell more. I also work to size up when the customer's height and inseam fall in between sizes. Long legs while falling in the middle of the size guides is another substantial reason to size up.
i just find it all confusing, i had a bike fit years ago and they said at 5'10" i should be on a small or medium nothing larger than 54. I ride a 55 or 56 and can sit in it all day but I do get restless hands and sometimes after 60+ miles sore inner thigh. But i used to have a 53/54 giant and felt so cramped on it, developed bad knees after short distance, just felt wrong and i always felt i was sitting bolt upright and look like a adult on a childs bike. So know i tweak my bike myself and only recently been looking at the bars as a place to make improvements. I am a heavy rider as well, 95+KG but fit.
7:18 ... recalling Si crocket bike wide 42 or 44 size handlebar... I went that way ... and well I am glad to take a bike fit and have my 40 size now
Most bikes come with bars that are too wide. In addition to stem length and angle, bars, cranks and saddle (contact points) adjustments are the most basic changes one should always make on every bike purchase.
It's good to note that some of the gnarlier gravel/drop bar bikes intentionally use a shorter stem and longer top tube combo to try to offset slacker geometry so that it is easier to steer. Stuff like the BMC URS or the Salsa Cutthroat do this and run 70-80mm stems
It's funny, these "rules of thumb" aren't right for everyone. I have a long tube and put on a 70mm stem, and it was better than the suggested 90 to 110mm because it allowed me to make sharper turns. I didn't experience any "twitchyness" or anything like that, which so many people said would happen on the internet. It just made since to me for my particular bike and how i like to sit on it. Also important to note along with thus, is that I have a excellent quality bike, and it is designed for racing!
Chapeau team, amazing effort. You guy`s passed me in Porte Pollensa that morning and you guys was motoring.
Respect👊😀
Yes I was worried. I so rarely purchase a new frame, the commitment to one ends up being pretty big. Thanks for the video
So informative and helpful. Want Phil to fit my bike to me now! If Si’s cycling career takes a wrong turn - he’d be a great bike salesman/fitter. Great show. Can Phil do one on bike position after knee surgery (TKR) Pleeeeeeeaaaaassssseeeee?
Yea I would like that too!!!!!
I find moving my cleats back and forth will affect the stem length and saddle fore and aft. I think this is overlooked many of the times when considering position. Very few times in the past 40 years have had it dialed in. And when I change shoes... that magic is lost. Have a dynamic system where all the variable can be manipulated real time would be a precious joule. And then get the item to replicate that geometry.
No bicycle truly fits me properly, as I am 2.04m 135 kg, but I have still enjoyed riding for 50+ years. My slightly smaller brother has, by contrast, some amazing rides that fit him like a glove.
Hey Chris Miller, you missed this one.
Great advice here in the video and comments!
I can go to sleep now, once I buy some handlebars. thank you
Seat height and bar height are all you need for comfortable riding position
Brilliant episode! Very informative
Bike fitting is dynamic and should be related to your experience in cycling. If you ride 3 times a week, for at least 40min each ride, and been doing it for like 3-4 years on the same bike, you surely have adjusted the fitment for at least 6 times during this period. The only thing you probably won’t change is the frame, but reach, seat height, seat tilt, seat fore-aft, handlebar width, crank length, will change according to your experience.
Plenty of people ride more than that and never adjust a thing. They just go with the initial, unprecise fit him the bike shop and never think of it. Plenty of others just lift their seat way too high and drop their bars all the way thinking it's faster
And as your age, fitness and riding style change, so will your ideal position. Like the ideal training plan, it's always a moving target and what worked last year, or even 3 months ago may well not work today.
@@jabba0975 barring injury and lots of aging, your fit(for performance vs going to a wind tunnel)shouldn't change much once you near your peak fitness/ability. If your fit is changing every 3-6 months, you have a bad fit.
@@veganpotterthevegan I try to avoid changing position on a given bike, actually. I switch bikes for different applications. I don't want the same position on my mtb as road bike. And I wouldn't want the aggressive, low position on the fast bike if I was going for an easy 3 hour spin with friends. If I didn't have different bikes, I would probably want to raise/lower the handlebars at least once a week for different types of rides. YMMV.
@jabba0975 jj who has the same fit on a mountain and road bike? Nobody fits road bikes to the flat part of the bar on drop bars. But your first comment didn't have much to do with what you just said now...
For me it's all about crank length! As a very short person on a xxs bike the best you can get is 165mm still way to big for xxs bike /person . Currently on a 57 variety 13" frame 26" wheel , crank 140mm taken from a Argos challenge folding bike . 170mm cranks on a xxs bike is the bike industry taking the p**s .
This guy needs subtitles. Hard to comprehend
I get 10k into a ride when the numbness in the lower region starts. Completely numb and turns the 'parts' dark red. For years, this is how I've ridden. I've had a fit done, numerous saddles, shorts and tweaks. Never had a full ride without numbness.
If in between sizes choose the smaller. If you get smaller frame you have more room for adjustment compare to large frame. Learned in it the hard and expensive way. I don't want to have a bike fit since it is expensive in my country. So i bought bikes basing on the info about the inseam so it came out 52. So i even bought bike size 53 because the stack is still manageable but the reach is too much because large bikes comes with long stems. So i learned my bike size fit by buying and trying it on long rides. If there's pain every after the ride then bike size is incorrect. If only i got bike fit at first then i would be buying too much bike and selling those are not fitted. Not considering those extra short stem that i bought just to fit. I remember i bought the bianchi that the person sold me as size 52. When the bike arrives it is size 53. I don't have problems with the height of the bike. But the reach is too much. The stem is 120mm so i changed it to 90mm but still not enough. Exact fit of stem for me is 70mm and finding one is a chore aswell. So i was able to find one tried it and it was fine. I really love it. The ride comfort is very nice. I can ride very long without pain. So i guess my torso is shorter. Now that i was able to get a bike fit my actual bike size should be size 50. So yeah. Better to get a bike fit than spend more. But for me experience taught me more information about different bikes. Taught me things that only experience will teach you. And also most bikes frame now a days doesn't have exact proportion. Unlike the classic which sometime have 52st/52tt or 52st/53tt now bike have 46st/53tt. So you really have to get flexible enough to get comfortable on the bike or else get an endurance or mountain bike which has an upright position.
The way he says "demonstrably" cracks me up 😂
I would suggest working on your core and make sure you hit most muscles, not only the rectus abdominis. Strong core makes a huge difference. Also work on your back (pullups or inverted rows if it's too hard). Cheers
Riiiight….!
Everyone watching this video “understood perfectly” how to choose a frame size, and whether you have the correct or wrong one 🤧
Phil rocks! Great video!
Very informative :) Thanks 🙏🕊
Really useful thanks.
Interesting vid. Good sense check in that a more relaxed geometry is probably better suited to 90% of riders.
Buying Phil’s book
How far you set back your saddle alters how far away the handlebars feel!!!wow that's amazing, who would have thought it?
Great breakdown
Great video. Cheers guys
Im 5'11" and normally ride a size 56. Well recently i found several bikes i liked and i settled on the size 58 because it was actually the most comfortable. The reach didnt feal too long and i didnt feel any back pain or other issues. A fitter told me it wasnt so muth the hight of the bike but it was the comfort you feel in the bikes cockpit. Several people have made it there business to tell me the bike was too big for me. I can fully stand flat footed over the bike with my feet on the ground and it just touches my "man parts" but not uncomfortably. Am i wrong in my love for this bike? Should i even bother listening to these people who think they know whats right for me? Thanks for any help you can provide.
6 foot and ride a 58cm tarmac. I've been told I could go smaller, but I run the bike with the stem slammed and its plenty comfortable for me
I'm 5'9'' with a 32'' inseam and I ride a 56 Dogma. I'm comfortable.
I really enjoy GCN’s content. The guys are really good overall, but occasionally I have a chuckle when they refer to “retro” this and that and seem amazed at 1990’s technology and how riders rode them. 😂
Im going to disagree with him on short stems. I'm 4'11 and most manufacturers reach is to long for their smallest size. Pinarello is the best for short people when it comes to sizing. It's the only top tier bike that I won't have to compromise fit. The difference in reach between Pinarello and other manufacturers is anywhere from 20mm to 30mm. For someone my size the max reach they would consider would be 360mm. I prefer a reach of 350mm. All the other brands reach usually starts at 370mm
His hands were way kicked in when you did that orange bar shoulder test!!!
Ooh I was hoping for another Ollie Beckingsale. I probably have watched that video more than any other GCN video, including devious ways to beat your mates.
Yeah when the bike shop sells you the wrong size bike and doesn't bother to try and fit you
I wish smaller bikes came with 170cranks or less... Bought a second hand cx bike with 172.5 and that feels huge. Yes, the frame size is correct, I even put a longer stem on it (the one on it was quite short). Also I put the handlebars down. It feels restrictive not because I can't ride in that position, just because my knees come up way too high. I might look at shorter cranks in the future, because all my other bikes have 170 and that feels definetly better, I might even considder 165. That will help my hips because they are really weirdly not allowing me to bend them to more than 90 degrees, which is not ideal for a cyclist (it just feels like I can't bend further, it does not hurt whatsoever).
Now I know not everyone can be a great orator, and i'm sure I myself would be a bundle of nerves before the great Si Richardson but for pete's sake, it sounds like you're talking to bleedin' Rowley Birkin QC!
I'm doing mental backflips trying to make sense of what he's saying and i'm already very familiar with the terminology here. This is the most rambling, stream-of-consciousness approach to this topic i've ever seen.
..."Leading" bike fitter? 3 years?! Well nonetheless, I do think his philosophy is overall a good one. Comfort is key, both in terms of performance and avoiding injury.
....said nothin' about shoes though eh :P