I am very impressed by how these videos always very diplomatically find a tie between ratings of groupsets. On the things that would matter to serious cyclists who are focused on performance, weight, shift speed and brake performance, Shimano is the clear winner. I actually much prefer SRAM, but I'm not a very serious cyclist. Being able to easily remove the batteries for charging and not getting confused on which button does what are the deciding factors for me.
They receive 💸 and prizes from manufacturers, so "do as I say not what I do " Corruption is just a part of life. Caution with reviews, "ride it before you buy it 😉 "
IMO any time shimano dual sided power meters are mentioned it should be pointed out that they don’t work 😂. I lean shimano and you can just get power meter pedals but with sram it’s nice that their power meter option is actually good.
Unsurprisingly, the video ends with a tie. While choosing between the 2, there are a few other considerations left that can help you choose one over the other. - Shimano power meters are average at best and the Quarq power meter is a much better product. This can easily be solved by choosing an aftermarket power meter for the Shimano (either crank or pedal based, and the options are plenty). - Shimano uses mineral oil for the brakes, which is nicer to maintain than the DOT used in SRAM brakes. - The ease of installation of SRAM if you are building a bike further strengthens the practicality win. Although I love SRAM mechanical groupsets, I would go with the Ultegra in this case as I think it is a better product overall. I would however use a 3rd party power meter.
One clear advantage of Di2 is the ability to program the 3rd buttons--top of the hoods--to control your Garmin or Wahoo computer. Sram doesn't offer this option yet.
Funny because I asked a cycling store about this as this is a function that I’m actually looking for. He was talking to me like I’m stupid and didn’t know how to change gears lol. Is it on every Di2 hood? I couldn’t see it on some bikes that had dura ace di2 and shimano di2
Whilst having chainrings you can't replace on the quarq is a bit ridiculous, the powermeter actually works. Unlike the shimano offering which is basiacally junk. Go look at the DCrainmaker or Shane Miller videos about it. You shouldn't be giving Shimano the win on the powermeter as it isn't fit for purpose.... typical mainstream cycling media.
@@dsrc53 Stages and 4iii are both hit or miss, same left sided powermeters are known to report powers -/+ 20% for those brands unless you go for the dual sided versions which jacks up the price significantly
DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller are absolutely correct to report the Shimano power meter isn’t absolutely accurate due to the asymmetric crank design. However, if you’ve taken your power tests with the same meter you’re training and racing with, it’s relative, and shouldn’t be an issue. So for a single person to train and pace efforts, it’s more than fit for purpose. For a team of riders with multiple bikes, training and racing on different equipment, or for a university using the power meter for research purposes, it’s not fit for purpose. Think of a power meter like a tire pressure gage, it can read high or low so long as it’s the only one you’re using, the trouble comes when trying to make comparisons with another PM/Gage. Should Shimano have fixed the crank design when 8100/9200 released? Yes, and it’s a bit ridiculous it still remains an issue.
One thing I like about the Shimano way of shifting is the very quick succession in which you can shift the FD and RD (Manual shifting mode). I press the left shifter once, and the right shifter almost simultaneously. I don't know how SRAM can do that with one press to shift the RD and another press (both buttons) to shift the FD. In this sense, I find Shimano's shifting method much faster than SRAM.
The SRAM can be set to do the compensation shift in the rear automatically when the front is shifted, or you can do it manually quite easily, and you can do it in the winter with gloves on unlike Shimano.
@@paradox963 I think it has to be an apples-to-apples comparison. Shimano also has the synchro-shift which is equivalent to the compensating shift of SRAM. I am comparing the manual modes of shifting. With Shimano, you can shift both FD and RD at the same time. For SRAM, you need to wait until you shifted one before you shift the other.
@@cyclingnerd You are correct that because you need to press both paddles on Sram for the front derailleur to shift, there is a split second difference, you can argue whether that is a good or bad thing, as shifting the front and rear at the exact same time is awful shifting form that leads to dropped and broken chains, this chain retention is also the reason the front derailleur is slightly slower on SRAM to make for a much smoother shift especially going from the large to the small chain ring, something that is visible in this video. But most of all I like the ability to ride in the winter, with winter gloves, and still be able to reliably shift my bike.
I believe that the SRAM system is far superior. Living with SRAM is much easier. Being able to take the rear mech off for cleaning makes life so much easier. Wireless blips on the inside of the hoods has been a game changer for me. Bleeding SRAM breaks, once you understand their system, is much easier and less messy than the Shimano Cup system. The simplicity of the two paddle system over the 4 buttons on the Shimano system is far superior. The braking feel and performance from SRAM is really good. After living with both SRAM and Shimano systems SRAM is a no brainer. The only two things that I could say would shift someone toward Shimano is if you really like the feel of the breaks and the fact that you have to buy a new power meter if you replace the chainrings. Otherwise its SRAM all the way.
You don’t have to buy a new power meter if you change your chain rings at all ! Sram offer a Quark spider based power meter that just bolts onto your chain rings that’s what I have on my BMC roadmachine 2 so it’s Sram all the way for me.
tx for nice comparison. What you didn’t include in the ‘charging’ comparison was: a) the need for Shimano to be charged ~1,8x more often (@30km/h average; SRAM upto 60h vs. Shimano upto 1000km), b) who doesn’t have a wall-outlet close to their bike-storage? So charging ‘on’ the bike for Ultegra is for most not really an issue even though more often required and c) SRAM battery system is more flexible being able to easily swop out a dead batteries mid-ride. Yet that flexibility might make soiling the charging pins with road-grime while doing so somewhat vulnerable. On the other hand (1) the cable-less design of Force vs. Ultegra with tiny delicate ‘wiredless’ cabling from central battery to both derailleurs looks more vulnerable then the all-wireless SRAM. On the other hand (2) Ultegra ‘wiredless’ wiring between both derailleurs and battery could potentially support faster and more robust (synchronized) shifting, then all-wireless SRAM (especially with a lot of radio-interference around other wireless bikes in a race a/o in a busy city?
Pricing should reflect that typically Ultegra does not have the Power Meter while SRAM is coming with them. You can get Force without a power meter for about 400 less, so that brings the cost more inline with each other. As mentioned by others, Shimano PM's are not accurate and it should have been mentioned. I've had both di2 and AXS, and find both to be fantastic systems and you can't really go wrong either way. I know people getting 12-15K miles out of their Red rings, and most people are not riding 12-15K a year, so these rings will last a fairly long time for the avg rider. Based on my annual avg, they would last 3 to 4 years. I have 2 bikes running Force AXS and alternate between them, so they should last far longer than that, but I have the original setup, so I can just replace the ring that needs it, but I would not hesitate to run the new cranks. SRAM does offer a 10% trade-in for the PM's, so there is that. I have been a long time Shimano user and have bikes with their gear, but I still like the ability to pop my batteries off and keep indoors out of the heat and cold. I can't store my bikes inside, so they are relegated to the garage and the heat in the summer is just a killer on the battery efficiency long term. Anyone that lives in the south knows you get about 3 years out of a car battery due to the heat. SRAM allows me to easily remove, charge, and store inside in a much cooler environment until I am ready to go for a ride.
I own both ultegra/di2 12speed and the the new Sram force etap. I honestly think the shimano crank is cleaner and more stealth looking. the new sram emblems look like augly stickers.. Some folks love traditional shifting compared to Srams shifting. At the end of the day It's all about preference.i think Shimano caters more to racers while Sram caters more to the average cyclist..no one wins..just ride and enjoy.
@Leo that's why more pros use shimano..its more pro oriented..years ago compact was rare..most road bike cyclist had to use large full chain rings...lol..I enjoy both sram and shimano but prefer shimano's traditional shifting.
@@LOGICAL-JAY pros use what sponsors wish them to use. These groupsets are just equally good, it doesn't make any difference in performance whatsoever.
Great presentation. Well done! Not watched a cycling weekly video for a while and you’ve really upped your game. Way better than the formulaic bike radar, roadcc and others. 👍🏻
Loved the old di2 on my tt bike because I had buttons to shift the gears. However for road I’ve always preferred sram both on cable and electronic shifting mainly because of the way you change the gears. Having now tested the new di2ultegra on the BMC team machine the shifting is good the breaks are amazing however the shifting feels numb and I still hate how the shifters feel on shimano so I will be sticking to sram.
Shimano is the clear winner here. The button setup everyone mentions as a negative, I totally disagree with. I've tried both, I like Shimano better. The gearing comparison is irrelevant. Both do the job fine. The battery charging comparison is irrelevant. Shimano is incredibly easy to charge. The dealbreaker here for BOTH group sets is the power meter. The Shimano power meter has been proven to be trash. The Quarq power meter is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, but this ridiculous setup with the power meter attached to the chainring? What idiot thought that was a good idea? Just another reason to build the group set yourself: Ultegra shifters, cassette and derailleurs, and a Quarq crank with a DFour or DZero power meter with Ultegra chainrings. That's the setup for me.
Why did SRAM go away from the spider based power meter? You can swap rings, crank length, 1X vs 2X and just keep the power meter. I've owned both electronic groups and after horrible faults with the Shimano batteries, I'll take SRAM every day + being able to bring a spare battery for that "just in case" is a plus. And if you are headed out for a ride and notice your battery is low, just swap out for a fresh one and good to go.
SRAM doesn’t want people buying after-market parts, and wants to increase the frequency people need to buy OEM replacements. I think it’s a bit predatory to try to decrease aftermarket compatibility, but Sram is focusing on the weekend enthusiast market instead of devout racers now so the average Sram customer probably isn’t affected as much
The greatest groupset ever was/is 11 speed SRAM Red Etap FD/RD with Shimano Dura-Ace cassette/chain. Other than that every SRAM groupset I've ever owned ends up getting converted to a Shimano groupset and I wonder why I didn't just start with Shimano.
In where I live, the cost of Ultegra di2 is quite significantly less expensive than SRAM Force, easier to find replacement (the RD is about the same price as the Rival). Not to mention the aftersales. So it’s a slamdunk here for Shimano.
Shimano must give huge discount to bike manufacturers to get the bikes actually cheaper, when the groupset alone is so much more expensive. But yeah, it's crazy that the SRAM cassettes are like twice the price of Ultegra ones. I think the chain is cheaper, though and that's the one you replace most often.
Thing with the PM is: most importantly the thing is accurate, and the Shimano one just isn't. It's all over the place (watch reviews from DC Rainmaker and GPlama). How can you recommend a PM that just isn't accurate? For both SRAM and Ultegra I'd get the set without PM and get a pair of Assioma's. Cheaper option, accurate and easy to switch to another bike.
@@saracen888 well, it works for them anyway, otherwise they would change it, like ineos with the lightweight wheels and they won't throw the pm away if they need to change the chainrings. 🤭
@@TnFruit Ineos haven’t used Lightweight wheels since 2020. Occasionally a Princeton was used, particularly for TT’s but they’re predominantly Shimano DA wheels
Aesthetics are subjective, but I prefer the look of Ultegra. The derailleurs look less bulky without the massive battery blocks and the less blingy colour scheme looks more premium to me.
Sorry but the Shimano Powermeter is very inaccurate. Just check out the reviews of DC Rainmaker and GP Lama. So the Shimano PM cant be used. The Sram Quarq powermeter in contrast is just excellent. Concerning this the point has to go to Sram!
You can pretty much replicate Sram's gear shifting in Ultegra. Front button on right shifter - front mech to big ring Back button on right shifter - go down the cassette Do the opposite for the left shifter Just as intuitive
I agree totally. I have a couple of bikes with Sram AXS and I programmed my bike with Shimano Di2 to mimic the Sram shift pattern. One hand makes it easier and the other makes it harder. Inner paddles operate the rear mech and outer paddles operate the front mech. Simple. I love it.
Based on my extensive experience of purchasing things, Japanese products usually put durability & QC near the top, at the expense of slight dullness. Just like my old XTR & XT groupsets, they will likely to survive WWIII, and that’s something you don’t write on the brochures
One of the best features of DI2 is synchronized shifting. With limited use of my right hand. This is why was able to upgrade from down tube shifters. You did not even mention it.
Got rid of my 6 month old dura ace & went for the new sram force. Its way better & gets faster the more you use it. The functionality & the added funtion of dropper posts just makes it even cooler. Not to mention its way easier to keep the Sram brakes quiet as they are nowhere near as volatile…
I think this is a pretty fair assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the two groupsets, though I would agree with others that the Shimano power meter is not so good. But that can be worked around, and the Shimano brakes are next level. SRAM power meter is great, but integrated with the chainrings (but how often do most of us actually replace our chainrings?), the shifting is intuitive and it is really easy to install and maintain (but how often do you do that as well?). I think it really is a tie - each has it's advantages. I have SRAM Force on my bike (prior gen 12 speed), but that's because I have Force mechanical on all my other bikes. But I've ridden the new Shimano and I rode Shimano for decades before I switched to SRAM about 10 years ago and I've always really liked their stuff.
For me with a slight right hand disability the ability to do all gear changes just with the left handgives ultegra the clear win. Beencriding it for over a year and live it
I'd choose Force all day....ergonomics and a bit more braking power, just does not justify nor closes the price gap for me. Sram to me has the best value and it looks better too!
For me SRAM, the better gear ratios, ease of battery charging and I would use power meter pedals. With regards to gear shifting speed, you do far more rear gear changes than front ones. So, I believe SRAM should have won that one.
too many things that simply do not matter. I am not a shimano fanboy, but the shifting at the levers on SRAM is better? Really? One can set up a "one lever usage", so that the Shimano changes the front ring when needed, avoids cross chaining but SRAM is better? Charging, I can use a portable battery when charging so no power point is needed and this means on a trip away from power if the group set battery goes low, it is easy to power back up or maybe just hook it up in the garage. So can we do this with both systems? And what about the cost of replacement batteries and how long do they last? Do they have a limp home mode or a warning mode? What about the Shimano delamination, does SRAM have that? Reliability seems important to me, but I Only keep bikes on the road for 10 years then I upgrade the components en mass. So which one is easiest to upgrade and what are component interchangeability like? Not much of a comparison.
I would instinctively choose Shimano, and they would be my go-to if I was going to upgrade to electronic shifting, but I really think you need to downgrade them in terms of practicality on account of their withdrawal of functionality with Hammerhead/Sram. Yes, there's a workaround available but who knows for how long and - in terms of long-term usage, who's to say that they won't fall out with other manufacturers in future? Additionally, the Shimano powermeter is notoriously terrible and doesn't seem to have been improved with this latest version. So much so a number of pros seem to be running 11 speed cranks with their 12 speed DA setups, so they can have a power meter that actually works.
I charge my ultegra using a power brick... So is quite practical. The only think I hate is that Shimano is using a custom connector instead of usb-c :( Evan you can charge on an emergency using your phone... again why Shimano didn't went with standard usb-c!!
Of all the comparison, just take the Super record 11speed Mechanical....the SR shifting from big to small cog are way faster, the used one are cheap now.
I can't believe how good my mechanical Chorus 11 speed is. Hell, I can't believe how good my early '90's Record Ti 8 speed still is. And I was never a fan of Shimano's planned obsolescence!
There's no way Ultegra can get a win for power meter. for Sram you have to throw away the powermeter when you get a new chainring, with shimano you have to throw away the powermeter when you get the bike
You shouldn’t give a point to ultegra on the Power meter it does sucks that we have to trow away the PM but at least it works the shimano PM is trash and we all know it that’s why pros don’t use it! 😊
Spindle Diameter: Shimano wins. Sram going to 30 mm was just ignorant. The extra size isn't needed, but now, they've forced themselves into needing smaller bottom bracket bearings... which means less performance and less durability. Dumb.
It's not even close, as Shimano keeps innovating generations onwards in an actual, technical and meaningful manner. Unlike Sram who just scrambled bits and pieces from last gen and put on a new colour and call it a day. It's almost laughable how Sram calls this a "New" groupset as literally nothing in terms of technology is new. At this rate, Sram will be come the new Campy, and Campy itself is long gone in their old dreams of former glory.🤣
The pricing issue must be a Europe things. I don't think there is a single example I could find where Force AXS is more expensive on a bike than Ultegra Di2 in America.
Aren't powermeters optional? Why are weight and prices stated for PMs included? For the sake of fairness - and bearing in mind not everyone is interested in them - PMs should be separated.
i love my sram red groupset just because its so intuitive. in the app i selected sychronized shifting so i just have to tap left or right. i mean its just fun doing that, like in a video game. i guess shimano does the same, but i never had a shimano di2. just the normal ultegra. compared to that, electronic shifting is just way more fun. the breaking is fine on sram but yes i noticed that my ultegra bike does break even better. but since im not a pro, that makes no difference to me.
when weight is important (500g).. its not even close... should compare force to 105di2 , there we have an equal weight.. in a world where weight 300-500g is everything, its what separates ultegra from dura-ace
Nice video. Question though on the power meter front. I have a Giant TCR and the Ultegra Di2 group set with power meters are branded Giant Power Pro. Are these different to the Shimano power meters, or the same? I personally don't have any issue with them (except possibly left/right balance), and I don't have any other reference point, but keen to know if there's a difference and why the comments are unanimous that Shimano power meters aren't particularly good.
I believe that Giant owned/owns a stake in Stages, which are an aftermarket power meter supplier, so the power meter you have is most likely not from Shimano. Stages are a fairly well regarded power meter. From what I have heard and watched, the shimano power meter tends to be inaccurate, so the data is not very reiliable.
Can’t believe you gave it to Shimano for the power meter. It’s well known that it’s accuracy is terrible compared to most leading power meters. Agree cost of replacement an issue but the Shimano meter is junk. Btw, I own a Sram and a D12 group set so foot in both camps :-)
Think the force groupset looks a lot nicer than the shimano ultegra, also you can fit a sram groupset in 15 minutes with two hex keys. Shimano is a pain to fit.
Nice video, but ^^ You compare different bike with 2 different groupset. If you wand to compare the price of groupset it's only on the same bike and for mine (Bianchi Oltre Pro) they have the two options and it's the same price ;-)
I have the previous version of Force. Chronic chain dropping. I understand SRAM update the FD and Chainrings to improve the groupset. The FD cage is narrower and the chainrings are stiffer. I am asking SRAM for updated components. I hope I get some help with this.
This video tanks its credibility when it mentions that the Shimano Ultegra crank power meter is better value. The base job of a power meter is to measure power output, and the Shimano power meters are notorious for doing that incorrectly.
I appreciate your efforts! 🙏 I have a quick question: 🤷♂️ I only have these words 🤔. (behave today finger ski upon boy assault summer exhaust beauty stereo over). I’d be grateful for some help. 🙌
I do have one question, about the Shimano Brakes? In the MTB ecosystem the brake levers have a small for lack of a better word bump to overcome before the pads make contact which is noticeable but only on brakes with servo wave tech. is this also a thing with the road brakes?
105 with some Ultegra parts: best value and weight drop. With Di2 I think 105 and Ultegra will fuse soon like the Cues thing, makes no sense the money versus weight\materials between the two.
why Sram has a point for charging?? you have to disconnect 2 batteries ! and bring the charger. with Shimano you just need to connect one cable.... sounds more like a draw
"Head to Head" but afraid to have an actual winner...shit like this drives me crazy. I own both Di2 and SRAM AXS, there's one clear winner in my experience.
how the hell can sram take a tie in shifting speed?i dont need a stopwatch for this its night and day especially on the front mech. and how the fuck can sram take the win in simplicity .... the clicking of both buttons is utterly stupid since you never know in which front ring you are. if you are not sure you are in the small ring and you press them you just go in the big ring while with shimano nothing happens if you are already where you want to be.
Did you ever use sram? when I ride sram and go back to shimano I have problems going back to 4 buttons. Sram is so easy to use and my main bike is shimano so im not biased. Both systems are very good and better than any mechanical group. Rival vs 105 I would go rival but force vs ultegra I would take ultegra.
which one has an aluminium spindle contacting a steel bearing? which one has a steel spindle contacting a steel bearing? If you haven't read up on galvanic corrosion, the answer is aluminum + steel is a bad idea.
Yeah, that's what I always say..i always felt that Sram force doesn't qualify to match up with ultegra..I tend to compare Ultegra and dura ace to Sram red..
Not sure about that! The rival groupset is way more appealing than 105. Many a review confirms this, Shimano are no longer the leader which is good for the consumer. ruclips.net/video/-U45UCvK6bI/видео.html
@Darren B wrong...Shimano is still #1 in sales world wide..sram is creeping up but Shimano is still the leader..I own both Sram red and d12 ultegra 12 speed & I understand what you're saying about more variety for the consumer..sram is geared more for the everyday rider(smaller crank until you get to sram red & 10/33 cassette)vs Shimano 105/ultegra/dura ace which is more geared for racers with their bigger cranks & 11/28 & 11/30 casettes.
@@LOGICAL-JAY fair points but I meant number 1 in terms of being no other option. I have ultegra di2 and fancied a change with Sram force, I am certainly not a pro so perhaps that’s why it was very appealing too as you say. SRAM defo excel in the MTB space
@Darren B yes indeed..I use my sram red etap when I want to relax but still speed once in a while vs I use my ultegra 12 speed when I'm in race mode..I guess the sram 10/33 gearing has more of a sweat spot than the ultegra 11/30
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To be honest, I am just glad that we live in a world where the 2 most popular groupset companies have very good products to offer. 😁
I am very impressed by how these videos always very diplomatically find a tie between ratings of groupsets. On the things that would matter to serious cyclists who are focused on performance, weight, shift speed and brake performance, Shimano is the clear winner. I actually much prefer SRAM, but I'm not a very serious cyclist. Being able to easily remove the batteries for charging and not getting confused on which button does what are the deciding factors for me.
They create the ties, so that the manufacturers are not upset. In this generation, Shimano is objectively better.
They receive 💸 and prizes from manufacturers, so "do as I say not what I do " Corruption is just a part of life. Caution with reviews, "ride it before you buy it 😉 "
Shimano has easily configured continuous shifting, never look back, simply tap up or down
The new Ultegra has been flawless. Love it 👌🏼
IMO any time shimano dual sided power meters are mentioned it should be pointed out that they don’t work 😂. I lean shimano and you can just get power meter pedals but with sram it’s nice that their power meter option is actually good.
Unsurprisingly, the video ends with a tie. While choosing between the 2, there are a few other considerations left that can help you choose one over the other.
- Shimano power meters are average at best and the Quarq power meter is a much better product. This can easily be solved by choosing an aftermarket power meter for the Shimano (either crank or pedal based, and the options are plenty).
- Shimano uses mineral oil for the brakes, which is nicer to maintain than the DOT used in SRAM brakes.
- The ease of installation of SRAM if you are building a bike further strengthens the practicality win.
Although I love SRAM mechanical groupsets, I would go with the Ultegra in this case as I think it is a better product overall. I would however use a 3rd party power meter.
One clear advantage of Di2 is the ability to program the 3rd buttons--top of the hoods--to control your Garmin or Wahoo computer. Sram doesn't offer this option yet.
Funny because I asked a cycling store about this as this is a function that I’m actually looking for. He was talking to me like I’m stupid and didn’t know how to change gears lol. Is it on every Di2 hood? I couldn’t see it on some bikes that had dura ace di2 and shimano di2
@@You-Tuber2024 the di2 12 speed has the 3rd buttons.
@@jvogel431 great. Thank you
@@You-Tuber2024 Only on Ultegra and DA, the 105 di2 doesn't have the extra buttons
Honestly can‘t imagine using my garmin in any other way during riding
Whilst having chainrings you can't replace on the quarq is a bit ridiculous, the powermeter actually works. Unlike the shimano offering which is basiacally junk. Go look at the DCrainmaker or Shane Miller videos about it. You shouldn't be giving Shimano the win on the powermeter as it isn't fit for purpose.... typical mainstream cycling media.
Honestly shimano still wins just don't buy the power meter version and buy a 4iii or a Stages to pair it with problem solved.
@@dsrc53 Stages and 4iii are both hit or miss, same left sided powermeters are known to report powers -/+ 20% for those brands unless you go for the dual sided versions which jacks up the price significantly
@@JTaco1000 You might wanna go look at DC Rainmaker or GP Lama’s review of the Stages shimano 12 speed power meters
@@dsrc53 I somewhat agree but if buying as part of a groupset as the video suggests I would def give the shimano powermeter a miss.
DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller are absolutely correct to report the Shimano power meter isn’t absolutely accurate due to the asymmetric crank design.
However, if you’ve taken your power tests with the same meter you’re training and racing with, it’s relative, and shouldn’t be an issue. So for a single person to train and pace efforts, it’s more than fit for purpose.
For a team of riders with multiple bikes, training and racing on different equipment, or for a university using the power meter for research purposes, it’s not fit for purpose.
Think of a power meter like a tire pressure gage, it can read high or low so long as it’s the only one you’re using, the trouble comes when trying to make comparisons with another PM/Gage.
Should Shimano have fixed the crank design when 8100/9200 released? Yes, and it’s a bit ridiculous it still remains an issue.
One thing I like about the Shimano way of shifting is the very quick succession in which you can shift the FD and RD (Manual shifting mode). I press the left shifter once, and the right shifter almost simultaneously. I don't know how SRAM can do that with one press to shift the RD and another press (both buttons) to shift the FD. In this sense, I find Shimano's shifting method much faster than SRAM.
The SRAM can be set to do the compensation shift in the rear automatically when the front is shifted, or you can do it manually quite easily, and you can do it in the winter with gloves on unlike Shimano.
I was even more confused about these two choices, but your answer is great and I completely agree
@@paradox963 I think it has to be an apples-to-apples comparison. Shimano also has the synchro-shift which is equivalent to the compensating shift of SRAM. I am comparing the manual modes of shifting. With Shimano, you can shift both FD and RD at the same time. For SRAM, you need to wait until you shifted one before you shift the other.
@@cyclingnerd You are correct that because you need to press both paddles on Sram for the front derailleur to shift, there is a split second difference, you can argue whether that is a good or bad thing, as shifting the front and rear at the exact same time is awful shifting form that leads to dropped and broken chains, this chain retention is also the reason the front derailleur is slightly slower on SRAM to make for a much smoother shift especially going from the large to the small chain ring, something that is visible in this video. But most of all I like the ability to ride in the winter, with winter gloves, and still be able to reliably shift my bike.
I've owned both systems and I find srams shift logic to be much better. However at the end of the day, it's all personal preference.
Everyone always talks about shimano needing to take your bike to a power source, I use a portable power bank to charge my Di2 with no problem.
One clear advantage of Force is that you can carry a spare battery with you and never have to worry about getting stranded due to a flat battery
I believe that the SRAM system is far superior. Living with SRAM is much easier. Being able to take the rear mech off for cleaning makes life so much easier. Wireless blips on the inside of the hoods has been a game changer for me. Bleeding SRAM breaks, once you understand their system, is much easier and less messy than the Shimano Cup system. The simplicity of the two paddle system over the 4 buttons on the Shimano system is far superior. The braking feel and performance from SRAM is really good. After living with both SRAM and Shimano systems SRAM is a no brainer. The only two things that I could say would shift someone toward Shimano is if you really like the feel of the breaks and the fact that you have to buy a new power meter if you replace the chainrings. Otherwise its SRAM all the way.
You don’t have to buy a new power meter if you change your chain rings at all ! Sram offer a Quark spider based power meter that just bolts onto your chain rings that’s what I have on my BMC roadmachine 2 so it’s Sram all the way for me.
tx for nice comparison. What you didn’t include in the ‘charging’ comparison was: a) the need for Shimano to be charged ~1,8x more often (@30km/h average; SRAM upto 60h vs. Shimano upto 1000km), b) who doesn’t have a wall-outlet close to their bike-storage? So charging ‘on’ the bike for Ultegra is for most not really an issue even though more often required and c) SRAM battery system is more flexible being able to easily swop out a dead batteries mid-ride. Yet that flexibility might make soiling the charging pins with road-grime while doing so somewhat vulnerable. On the other hand (1) the cable-less design of Force vs. Ultegra with tiny delicate ‘wiredless’ cabling from central battery to both derailleurs looks more vulnerable then the all-wireless SRAM. On the other hand (2) Ultegra ‘wiredless’ wiring between both derailleurs and battery could potentially support faster and more robust (synchronized) shifting, then all-wireless SRAM (especially with a lot of radio-interference around other wireless bikes in a race a/o in a busy city?
Pricing should reflect that typically Ultegra does not have the Power Meter while SRAM is coming with them. You can get Force without a power meter for about 400 less, so that brings the cost more inline with each other. As mentioned by others, Shimano PM's are not accurate and it should have been mentioned. I've had both di2 and AXS, and find both to be fantastic systems and you can't really go wrong either way. I know people getting 12-15K miles out of their Red rings, and most people are not riding 12-15K a year, so these rings will last a fairly long time for the avg rider. Based on my annual avg, they would last 3 to 4 years. I have 2 bikes running Force AXS and alternate between them, so they should last far longer than that, but I have the original setup, so I can just replace the ring that needs it, but I would not hesitate to run the new cranks. SRAM does offer a 10% trade-in for the PM's, so there is that. I have been a long time Shimano user and have bikes with their gear, but I still like the ability to pop my batteries off and keep indoors out of the heat and cold. I can't store my bikes inside, so they are relegated to the garage and the heat in the summer is just a killer on the battery efficiency long term. Anyone that lives in the south knows you get about 3 years out of a car battery due to the heat. SRAM allows me to easily remove, charge, and store inside in a much cooler environment until I am ready to go for a ride.
I own both ultegra/di2 12speed and the the new Sram force etap. I honestly think the shimano crank is cleaner and more stealth looking. the new sram emblems look like augly stickers.. Some folks love traditional shifting compared to Srams shifting. At the end of the day It's all about preference.i think Shimano caters more to racers while Sram caters more to the average cyclist..no one wins..just ride and enjoy.
Sadly Shimano loses points due the the lack of compact and sub compact chain rings
@Leo that's why more pros use shimano..its more pro oriented..years ago compact was rare..most road bike cyclist had to use large full chain rings...lol..I enjoy both sram and shimano but prefer shimano's traditional shifting.
@@LOGICAL-JAY pros use what sponsors wish them to use. These groupsets are just equally good, it doesn't make any difference in performance whatsoever.
Great presentation. Well done! Not watched a cycling weekly video for a while and you’ve really upped your game. Way better than the formulaic bike radar, roadcc and others. 👍🏻
Loved the old di2 on my tt bike because I had buttons to shift the gears. However for road I’ve always preferred sram both on cable and electronic shifting mainly because of the way you change the gears. Having now tested the new di2ultegra on the BMC team machine the shifting is good the breaks are amazing however the shifting feels numb and I still hate how the shifters feel on shimano so I will be sticking to sram.
Shimano is the clear winner here. The button setup everyone mentions as a negative, I totally disagree with. I've tried both, I like Shimano better. The gearing comparison is irrelevant. Both do the job fine. The battery charging comparison is irrelevant. Shimano is incredibly easy to charge. The dealbreaker here for BOTH group sets is the power meter. The Shimano power meter has been proven to be trash. The Quarq power meter is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, but this ridiculous setup with the power meter attached to the chainring? What idiot thought that was a good idea? Just another reason to build the group set yourself: Ultegra shifters, cassette and derailleurs, and a Quarq crank with a DFour or DZero power meter with Ultegra chainrings. That's the setup for me.
Why did SRAM go away from the spider based power meter? You can swap rings, crank length, 1X vs 2X and just keep the power meter.
I've owned both electronic groups and after horrible faults with the Shimano batteries, I'll take SRAM every day + being able to bring a spare battery for that "just in case" is a plus. And if you are headed out for a ride and notice your battery is low, just swap out for a fresh one and good to go.
SRAM doesn’t want people buying after-market parts, and wants to increase the frequency people need to buy OEM replacements.
I think it’s a bit predatory to try to decrease aftermarket compatibility, but Sram is focusing on the weekend enthusiast market instead of devout racers now so the average Sram customer probably isn’t affected as much
The greatest groupset ever was/is 11 speed SRAM Red Etap FD/RD with Shimano Dura-Ace cassette/chain. Other than that every SRAM groupset I've ever owned ends up getting converted to a Shimano groupset and I wonder why I didn't just start with Shimano.
Whoa whoa whoa!! You didn’t mention the Shimano power meter doesn’t even work properly. Great video, but that’s a huge huge miss!
I choose the one that has a functional power meter
2 bikes with RED and 2 bike with Force; ditched all Di2 groupsets; only bike with Shimano now is 105 mechanical
In where I live, the cost of Ultegra di2 is quite significantly less expensive than SRAM Force, easier to find replacement (the RD is about the same price as the Rival). Not to mention the aftersales. So it’s a slamdunk here for Shimano.
I'm just glad this video wasn't riddled with "umm yeah"
I've been riding for nearly 13 years and I don't think I've ever cupped shifter hoods.
Shimano must give huge discount to bike manufacturers to get the bikes actually cheaper, when the groupset alone is so much more expensive. But yeah, it's crazy that the SRAM cassettes are like twice the price of Ultegra ones. I think the chain is cheaper, though and that's the one you replace most often.
I had a feeling this was going to come down to a tie. Such a cop out. Come on, guys! Make someone upset!
The best presenter on any of the bike channels, and a great review.
Thing with the PM is: most importantly the thing is accurate, and the Shimano one just isn't. It's all over the place (watch reviews from DC Rainmaker and GPlama). How can you recommend a PM that just isn't accurate? For both SRAM and Ultegra I'd get the set without PM and get a pair of Assioma's. Cheaper option, accurate and easy to switch to another bike.
Exactly this ^^^
If it's good for the pros it's good for us. If you use the same PM through the line you can compare the numbers.
@@TnFruit the pros and teams are paid to use the Dura-Ace pm
@@saracen888 well, it works for them anyway, otherwise they would change it, like ineos with the lightweight wheels and they won't throw the pm away if they need to change the chainrings. 🤭
@@TnFruit Ineos haven’t used Lightweight wheels since 2020. Occasionally a Princeton was used, particularly for TT’s but they’re predominantly Shimano DA wheels
Aesthetics are subjective, but I prefer the look of Ultegra. The derailleurs look less bulky without the massive battery blocks and the less blingy colour scheme looks more premium to me.
The powermeter-part, unless you're buying the left-only variant, is in the chainrings. Quite expensive to replace or stock different sizes.
Sorry but the Shimano Powermeter is very inaccurate. Just check out the reviews of DC Rainmaker and GP Lama. So the Shimano PM cant be used. The Sram Quarq powermeter in contrast is just excellent. Concerning this the point has to go to Sram!
Ultegra for ever!! Particularly since Dura Ace is sooo expensive.
Not a chance Sram etap kills DI2.
Shimano never gets old 🤘🏻
You can just take a portable USB battery to your bike with the Shimano, it’s not really rocket science.
You can pretty much replicate Sram's gear shifting in Ultegra.
Front button on right shifter - front mech to big ring
Back button on right shifter - go down the cassette
Do the opposite for the left shifter
Just as intuitive
I agree totally. I have a couple of bikes with Sram AXS and I programmed my bike with Shimano Di2 to mimic the Sram shift pattern. One hand makes it easier and the other makes it harder. Inner paddles operate the rear mech and outer paddles operate the front mech. Simple. I love it.
Based on my extensive experience of purchasing things, Japanese products usually put durability & QC near the top, at the expense of slight dullness. Just like my old XTR & XT groupsets, they will likely to survive WWIII, and that’s something you don’t write on the brochures
One of the best features of DI2 is synchronized shifting. With limited use of my right hand. This is why was able to upgrade from down tube shifters. You did not even mention it.
Got rid of my 6 month old dura ace & went for the new sram force. Its way better & gets faster the more you use it. The functionality & the added funtion of dropper posts just makes it even cooler. Not to mention its way easier to keep the Sram brakes quiet as they are nowhere near as volatile…
I think this is a pretty fair assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the two groupsets, though I would agree with others that the Shimano power meter is not so good. But that can be worked around, and the Shimano brakes are next level. SRAM power meter is great, but integrated with the chainrings (but how often do most of us actually replace our chainrings?), the shifting is intuitive and it is really easy to install and maintain (but how often do you do that as well?). I think it really is a tie - each has it's advantages. I have SRAM Force on my bike (prior gen 12 speed), but that's because I have Force mechanical on all my other bikes. But I've ridden the new Shimano and I rode Shimano for decades before I switched to SRAM about 10 years ago and I've always really liked their stuff.
For me with a slight right hand disability the ability to do all gear changes just with the left handgives ultegra the clear win. Beencriding it for over a year and live it
Shimano have been very generous with its OEM pricing - so you’ll see bikes with Ultegra being less than Force.
Shimano has* been (...) with its pricing
SRAM does NOT take the win for shifting ease. Shimano's concept is far more logical. You should never require two hands to switch a gear.
I'd choose Force all day....ergonomics and a bit more braking power, just does not justify nor closes the price gap for me. Sram to me has the best value and it looks better too!
Nah, ultegra looks way better
For me SRAM, the better gear ratios, ease of battery charging and I would use power meter pedals.
With regards to gear shifting speed, you do far more rear gear changes than front ones. So, I believe SRAM should have won that one.
And one thing not even mentioned in the video is that the wear of SRAM's chain is insanely long requiring much less maintenance
Unfortunately, Shimano's pwoermeter doesn't quite work correctly.
too many things that simply do not matter. I am not a shimano fanboy, but the shifting at the levers on SRAM is better? Really? One can set up a "one lever usage", so that the Shimano changes the front ring when needed, avoids cross chaining but SRAM is better? Charging, I can use a portable battery when charging so no power point is needed and this means on a trip away from power if the group set battery goes low, it is easy to power back up or maybe just hook it up in the garage. So can we do this with both systems? And what about the cost of replacement batteries and how long do they last? Do they have a limp home mode or a warning mode? What about the Shimano delamination, does SRAM have that? Reliability seems important to me, but I Only keep bikes on the road for 10 years then I upgrade the components en mass. So which one is easiest to upgrade and what are component interchangeability like?
Not much of a comparison.
I would instinctively choose Shimano, and they would be my go-to if I was going to upgrade to electronic shifting, but I really think you need to downgrade them in terms of practicality on account of their withdrawal of functionality with Hammerhead/Sram. Yes, there's a workaround available but who knows for how long and - in terms of long-term usage, who's to say that they won't fall out with other manufacturers in future?
Additionally, the Shimano powermeter is notoriously terrible and doesn't seem to have been improved with this latest version. So much so a number of pros seem to be running 11 speed cranks with their 12 speed DA setups, so they can have a power meter that actually works.
It be great if durability and availability are also considered…
...and serviceability
I stopped using Shimano years ago. There crank set selection leaves much to be desired. The lack of compact and sun compact cranks is sad.
Their* (!) crank set selection. compact/sub* compact
I charge my ultegra using a power brick... So is quite practical. The only think I hate is that Shimano is using a custom connector instead of usb-c :( Evan you can charge on an emergency using your phone... again why Shimano didn't went with standard usb-c!!
Because it is safer like magsafe on the Mac. When you trip on the cord, you don't bring the bike with you.
after 2 years on my road bike & mtb, sram axs no wory.
Did not mention there are serious performance issues with the new Shimano power meters which were supposed to solve all these problems.
Of all the comparison, just take the Super record 11speed Mechanical....the SR shifting from big to small cog are way faster, the used one are cheap now.
I can't believe how good my mechanical Chorus 11 speed is. Hell, I can't believe how good my early '90's Record Ti 8 speed still is. And I was never a fan of Shimano's planned obsolescence!
There's no way Ultegra can get a win for power meter. for Sram you have to throw away the powermeter when you get a new chainring, with shimano you have to throw away the powermeter when you get the bike
At least SRAM has a discount program to replace the PM after the rings wear
You shouldn’t give a point to ultegra on the Power meter it does sucks that we have to trow away the PM but at least it works the shimano PM is trash and we all know it that’s why pros don’t use it! 😊
ULTEGRA Ftw!
Spindle Diameter: Shimano wins. Sram going to 30 mm was just ignorant. The extra size isn't needed, but now, they've forced themselves into needing smaller bottom bracket bearings... which means less performance and less durability. Dumb.
SRAM DUB is 29/28.99 mm and is only ideal for bottom bracket standards with a large internal diameter.
@@yonglingng5640 Jesus man, really? You are two steps behind.
The prices you always quote are list price.I built up a TCR Advanced SL last week and the new Shimano Ultegra was only £1700
Chain efficiency: Shimano. Idk what SRAM does (or doesn't do) to their chains but they are measurably slower than Shimano chains.
I'm surprised it wasn't touched on in the video but SRAM has a better installation process as it has less cable running.
The shimano power meter is know to be inaccurate from GP Lamma and DC Rainmaker. Would not buy that power meter even if it was free.
It's not even close, as Shimano keeps innovating generations onwards in an actual, technical and meaningful manner. Unlike Sram who just scrambled bits and pieces from last gen and put on a new colour and call it a day. It's almost laughable how Sram calls this a "New" groupset as literally nothing in terms of technology is new. At this rate, Sram will be come the new Campy, and Campy itself is long gone in their old dreams of former glory.🤣
ultegra is the new dura ace.. dura ace is now super record
And super record is now dust-binned from the World Tour.
The pricing issue must be a Europe things. I don't think there is a single example I could find where Force AXS is more expensive on a bike than Ultegra Di2 in America.
Ultegra. Disposing the quark powermeter once the chainrings wear out was absolutely a deal breaker.
Aren't powermeters optional? Why are weight and prices stated for PMs included? For the sake of fairness - and bearing in mind not everyone is interested in them - PMs should be separated.
i love my sram red groupset just because its so intuitive. in the app i selected sychronized shifting so i just have to tap left or right. i mean its just fun doing that, like in a video game. i guess shimano does the same, but i never had a shimano di2. just the normal ultegra. compared to that, electronic shifting is just way more fun.
the breaking is fine on sram but yes i noticed that my ultegra bike does break even better. but since im not a pro, that makes no difference to me.
Having met many wireless connectivity issues in this world, how reliable are wireless communication systems like that SRAM uses?
Extremely reliable, even with 20 other riders who all have axs around you
Both brands are sponsors. Not allowed to pick a favorite!
My 10 year old mechanical Sram red rim brake groupset is more than a kilo lighter. And much cheaper too.
I stopped using Shimano a few years ago. To limited. Crank sets have a poor option of choices.
when weight is important (500g).. its not even close... should compare force to 105di2 , there we have an equal weight.. in a world where weight 300-500g is everything, its what separates ultegra from dura-ace
Nice video. Question though on the power meter front. I have a Giant TCR and the Ultegra Di2 group set with power meters are branded Giant Power Pro. Are these different to the Shimano power meters, or the same? I personally don't have any issue with them (except possibly left/right balance), and I don't have any other reference point, but keen to know if there's a difference and why the comments are unanimous that Shimano power meters aren't particularly good.
I believe that Giant owned/owns a stake in Stages, which are an aftermarket power meter supplier, so the power meter you have is most likely not from Shimano. Stages are a fairly well regarded power meter.
From what I have heard and watched, the shimano power meter tends to be inaccurate, so the data is not very reiliable.
Can’t believe you gave it to Shimano for the power meter. It’s well known that it’s accuracy is terrible compared to most leading power meters. Agree cost of replacement an issue but the Shimano meter is junk. Btw, I own a Sram and a D12 group set so foot in both camps :-)
Think the force groupset looks a lot nicer than the shimano ultegra, also you can fit a sram groupset in 15 minutes with two hex keys. Shimano is a pain to fit.
Nice video, but ^^ You compare different bike with 2 different groupset. If you wand to compare the price of groupset it's only on the same bike and for mine (Bianchi Oltre Pro) they have the two options and it's the same price ;-)
I have the previous version of Force. Chronic chain dropping. I understand SRAM update the FD and Chainrings to improve the groupset. The FD cage is narrower and the chainrings are stiffer. I am asking SRAM for updated components. I hope I get some help with this.
This video tanks its credibility when it mentions that the Shimano Ultegra crank power meter is better value. The base job of a power meter is to measure power output, and the Shimano power meters are notorious for doing that incorrectly.
I appreciate your efforts! 🙏 I have a quick question: 🤷♂️ I only have these words 🤔. (behave today finger ski upon boy assault summer exhaust beauty stereo over). I’d be grateful for some help. 🙌
I like the Sram Force on my Cervelo C3
I do have one question, about the Shimano Brakes? In the MTB ecosystem the brake levers have a small for lack of a better word bump to overcome before the pads make contact which is noticeable but only on brakes with servo wave tech. is this also a thing with the road brakes?
105 with some Ultegra parts: best value and weight drop. With Di2 I think 105 and Ultegra will fuse soon like the Cues thing, makes no sense the money versus weight\materials between the two.
105 Shifters, brakes and derailleurs with ultegra crankset and cassette. Best middle ground for weight and value I feel.
Does the shimano weight include the battery?
Yes
to me, shimano wins in every aspects except power meter. Shimano's power meters are trash in terms of accuracy and weight.
Surprise Surprise.. it was a tie. Lol
Someone give us back our silver groupsets - black is so trash !!
why Sram has a point for charging?? you have to disconnect 2 batteries ! and bring the charger. with Shimano you just need to connect one cable.... sounds more like a draw
"Head to Head" but afraid to have an actual winner...shit like this drives me crazy. I own both Di2 and SRAM AXS, there's one clear winner in my experience.
I paid 1800 EUR for the Ultegra without powermeter. It's a fair price
Charging on the bike is extremely easy with a power bank. I prefer SRAM, but in fairness that should be a draw ;)
You didn't mention that the ultegra power meter is shite
"Shimano requires you to take the whole bike to a power source..." - am i the only one who doesn't use a power bank for charging?!
is durability a thing anymore?
my propel ultegra di2 gives me a much better ride experience over my factor ostro vam with sram force
Shimano. End of the story.
Don't forget the Sram wireless blips can't be recharged and are therefore disposable.
What??
@@yonglingng5640 That's right - you can't replace or recharge the battery. Once it dies you have to replace the whole wireless blip.
how the hell can sram take a tie in shifting speed?i dont need a stopwatch for this its night and day especially on the front mech.
and how the fuck can sram take the win in simplicity .... the clicking of both buttons is utterly stupid since you never know in which front ring you are. if you are not sure you are in the small ring and you press them you just go in the big ring while with shimano nothing happens if you are already where you want to be.
You start with the desird result (a tie) and then you work your way backwards
Did you ever use sram? when I ride sram and go back to shimano I have problems going back to 4 buttons. Sram is so easy to use and my main bike is shimano so im not biased. Both systems are very good and better than any mechanical group. Rival vs 105 I would go rival but force vs ultegra I would take ultegra.
Just use syncro - you don’t even to know. I ride both and I like the SRAM better.
which one has an aluminium spindle contacting a steel bearing?
which one has a steel spindle contacting a steel bearing?
If you haven't read up on galvanic corrosion, the answer is aluminum + steel is a bad idea.
I have never encountered this problem. I will stick with SRAM
@@Leo-gt1bx you can find lots of instances of cranks bonding to the bb. also, using a 30 mm spindle in a bsa bb makes the bearings tiny.
The better comparison is Force vs 105 in my opinion.
Yeah, that's what I always say..i always felt that Sram force doesn't qualify to match up with ultegra..I tend to compare Ultegra and dura ace to Sram red..
Not sure about that! The rival groupset is way more appealing than 105. Many a review confirms this, Shimano are no longer the leader which is good for the consumer. ruclips.net/video/-U45UCvK6bI/видео.html
@Darren B wrong...Shimano is still #1 in sales world wide..sram is creeping up but Shimano is still the leader..I own both Sram red and d12 ultegra 12 speed & I understand what you're saying about more variety for the consumer..sram is geared more for the everyday rider(smaller crank until you get to sram red & 10/33 cassette)vs Shimano 105/ultegra/dura ace which is more geared for racers with their bigger cranks & 11/28 & 11/30 casettes.
@@LOGICAL-JAY fair points but I meant number 1 in terms of being no other option. I have ultegra di2 and fancied a change with Sram force, I am certainly not a pro so perhaps that’s why it was very appealing too as you say. SRAM defo excel in the MTB space
@Darren B yes indeed..I use my sram red etap when I want to relax but still speed once in a while vs I use my ultegra 12 speed when I'm in race mode..I guess the sram 10/33 gearing has more of a sweat spot than the ultegra 11/30
I like the look of the Sram chainset but I suggest it is a dirt trap and would be harder to clean
How so?
10:04 You can reprogram all buttons on Shimano, and switch the shifting mode to resemble SRAM's. 👎