Is Shimano Ultegra Di2 Better than SRAM Force eTap AXS?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
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I've been testing the new Shimano Ultegra R8170 Di2 Disc Brake Groupset for the past 6 months to see whether it's any good and help you decide if it's the groupset for you in 2023?
Content
00:00 Intro
1:11 Key changes
1:36 Pinnacle of groupset performance
2:21 The Good
3:57 Is 12 speed Better?
5:58 SquareSpace sponsor
6:39 SRAM Force eTap AXS comparison
7:52 The Bad
9:13 Ultegra wheels impressions
12:04 Summary
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"Once you've got permission to buy a new road bike..." Hahahahahahaha. So you've met my wife?
And mine
@@willkent4759 Haha... very true. I bought the missus flowers when I bought myself a new bike in the new year. I forked out too. None of your petrol station or supermarket rubbish.
Yep, the wife should have something too before you buy a bike. “wife tax” is more expensive than the government/import tax 😂
“Wife Tax”. I’m stealing this.
Ha ha , my new bike also has to include an all inclusive holiday for permission 😀
Had it for a year now and zero regrets.
Silky shifting and never knew how much I needed the 16 tooth!
I've been riding Ultegra since the old 600 series , (1980's). I'm currently building up a frame with new 12 speed Ultergra and looking forward to getting out on it. For me it's always been the sweet spot of groupsets. Cheers
Love that you review stuff people buy and lower end bikes too.
Really good video. Lots to study on. Thank you for sharing!
I'd originally intended to go with Rival whilst shopping for a new bike, but after copious research on this new Ultegra, I decided to go with it instead. So glad I did! It's been fantastic and enhances the enjoyment of my rides. I did have to compromise on integration with my Karoo 2, but now that's been fixed with Ki2.
"Fixed", not for the people that can't or don't know how, or don't want to use Ki2
I have the Ultegra on my Wilier Rav and it is great. Changed the chainrings to GRX for better options on the hills. Overall way better than the Sram Force I had on my Scott Addict RC20 and the Di2 11S on the Canyon Grail.
Have 3 months on my groupset. By far the best group I've ever ridden and that spans 40 years and experience on Campy, Dura Ace, and Sram. Absolutely no issues. Only downside besides price is firmware updates on the shifters which needs to be wireless and easier to accomplish Thanks.
I was between the two as well and ended up with SRAM for similar reasons. İ don't have the problem with the hoods since my bike has rim brakes and Force Etap Axs shifters are pretty slim for rim brakes version. Thanks for the review!
I love my Campagnolo record eps but it has needed a couple of adjustments over the last few years. Shimano just does this so well
The main reason that 105 Di2 wasn't really well received was due to its price point. The MSRP is €1729 which was simply ridiculous when you compared it to the 'old' 105 group which was around the €999 mark, a 70% upmark for trickled down technology. In practice, you get a 105 mechanical groupset for even less than €999. Now that the Di2 groupset is dropping in price and available for €1495 for a complete set and even bikes releasing with 105 Di2 for less than €3000 (Canyon Endurace CF 7 Di2 @ €2699) I think the value of 105 Di2 is rising. And I think that bikes are becoming more available and maybe even cheaper. The pandemic really had a big effect on the bike industry but everything is calming down and manufacturers see this as well. Everybody that wanted a bike, has a bike. Everybody that found out biking was not for them, got rid of their bikes. And everybody that wants to upgrade their bikes did that or is waiting for more reasonable prices. I think more and more people realise that riding a 'premium' bike brand is not worth it over a lesser known brand just to have that logo on the down tube.
I bought it for a bike build recently - it has been great fun building up so far.
The only minor annoyance i discovered was that the OTA firmware updates for the shifters doesn't exist unless they're wired in.
It's only low key annoying as they shouldn't need updating, but was a bit daft IMO
Can you give an update on your impressions of the C68? Love the vids!
Personally I’d not move away from SRAM AXS now despite the hood size, which I now prefer. Love your dream bike David. I’d be interested to see you compare it with the V4RS and i am very keen to see your review of the Enve Melee
The prices are just crazy now. My last brand new Ultegra wheelset were RS80. Back in 2013 and they cost £350. My Ultegra groupset I bought in 2019 was £640. How times change.....
Shifting is very nice, probably thee most quiet drivetrain I’ve ever had. Only downside is battery life, Hyd disc setup is quick and braking is very nice. Overall very good upgrade.
We need wireless brakes Shimano ! We need them "NOW" .
The splintering Ultegra cranks incident / recall makes me wary of them as I sustained cuts removing one from a bicycle a year ago as part of a replacement procedure .
My Condor Fratello came with UDi2. Its much better than my cable 10 speed Super Record. I am loving it!
Great comparison! I would like to ask, how often do you need to charge a battery on Ultegra? Thanks
As always, great review. I’m so tempted to swap my SR EPS for the DA because the DA hoods look just right while my SR EPS hoods are a tad short and small but still pretty comfy nevertheless… i spend a lot of my time either in the drops or on the hoods but with my lower arm flat on the bar tops. I would love to have the DA drive train but the SR brakes and shifters.
you must try DA to understand that Campy is on its own league and we expect to see new SR generation hopefully this year , I have tried all current electronic gsets..
@@ejguleet2427 Do you mean Campy SR EPS is better than the new DA? I have the current SR EPS, looks great, definite eye candy but a bit gappy on the back gears and dropped the chain 3x last summer... a bit bummed... But in terms of comfort, ergo and looks, nothing comes close to the SR EPS.
Happy to get *any* shimano di2 group set on a road bike but they’re nowhere to be found where I live. It seems like there’s an glut of SRAM etap bikes that aren’t being sold.
It is a fantastic groupset and I have had the joy of building a fair few bikes with it now and it's an easy process.
I personally am running Sram.
As you said the gearing range is better than Shimano and so modular.
MTB cassette with road shifters,no problems!
I am also in the minority with a fan of 1X for road.
Sram gives me a clutch and that better gearing as i have mentioned!
David, thanks for this review. It has been very informative. I presently am riding SRAM AXS Rival and have noticed my overall bike weight is 30% heavier and think that my Rival AXS groupo contributes to this weight. Do you know the weight difference between Shimano DI2 Ultegra and SRAM AXS Force? Thanks in advance and keep up posting videos.
Curious is there actually any limitations with using the compete Ultegra groupset but a Dura ace crankset. Shimano limit the FD up to a 52T chainring but couldn’t you just adjust the FD setup accordingly to fit their 54T DA chainring?
Been using this for 10 months. Zero problems! Battery life is insane, shifting is perfect, and the 16 tooth is actually very useful and not just a gimmick.
I was glad when they retained the range, saves me the trouble of converting gear ratios and still allowing the use of familiar chainring sizes.
Also noticed its so quiet sometimes you don’t hear it shift - unsettling at first!
It would have been good to talk about sram force FD chain drop and how this compares- there doesn’t seem to be much issue with chain drop though.
I can switch batteries between my Red AXS Gragelbike and my Red22 Roadbike very easily or I could take a battery with me for one week rides. That's what I like and no cables of course.
Have you found the CL800 rotors to be an improvement?
You can throw something at me, but this group with its angular shapes look amazing with this frame. Better than natural shaped Campa.
The sram and the wahoo give you your shifting count and all stats on the wahoo but not on the ultegra.. unless something need to be done that I’m not aware. I have the shifting display but not shifting count and favorite gear..
Will the new brakes work with the old 11 speed?
As always, a great video. My KTM Revalator Master I got last May came with the new Ultegra 2x12 (50/34 + 11-30). I love it. It super fast and the ergonomics are amazing. I think the hoods are a bit more comfortable than the Rival etab XPLR AXS hoods I have on my KTM X-Strada Gravel Bike (overall I really like Rival XPLR). I cannot draw any comparisons with other road (or gravel group sets) as I haven't ridden any).
I have 2 questions:
1): Some report that the new battery doesn't last as long as on 2x11. Is this true? Could this be because of the faster shifting requiring more power?
2): I will need a new chain very soon. Which length do you recommend? On bike24, the Deore XT CN-M8100 cassette is available with 116, 126 and 138 links. I was thinking about getting the 126 which might also be enough for my XT (mechanical) groupset on my Hardtail. I was surprised that the Deore XT CN-M8100 is the one to go with but it's also listed on the Shimano website as the chain for Ultegra 2x12.
Keep the great videos coming, I've learned a lot of cool things from your channel!
I'm moving away from 11s Sram Red eTap, onto DA 9270. Why not Red AXS? (I've been a Sram fan since 2007) - I have a ton of existing kit and the lack of Sram backwards-compatibility is a bit of a challenge for me. Sram's also put a lot of weight on.
How do you think about power meter availability & cost when considering group sets?
That's a good question I didn't dive into because I've not had the chance to test them. SRAM does offer a lower price option with its Rival crankset but hopefully I can get the chance to do some power meter testing in the future
I’m more than happy with my sram Red
When it comes to SRAM vs Shimano electronic it comes down to one thing for me and that’s WIRELESS!
Nice Michelin tires in the riding shots
💥BOOM!💥
Once you use Sram’s shifting system, it’s hard to go back. I stay mis-shifting while working on my girlfriend’s bike which has 105.
The only letdown with shimano is the lack of accuracy with the powermeters
How much does that Colnago with ultegra cost in total?
How many miles (or kilos) do you ride a year?
Thank you for mentioning that people are still reporting noise issues on this new shimano groupset! I will pass on this too then...
I've ridden multiple bikes with this new groupset and not experienced it yet so I'm confident it's a very small issue
@@davidarthur well I've had a few bad experiences with both shimano and campagnolo 11 and 12 speed groupsets being noisy and one time even faulty from brand new. To me it seems like they still have quality control issues considering these reports. I just think it is good to be transparent about the issues and it is a good thing you did mention it after all
@@davidarthur I've had the 5th (11-34 cassette) and 4th (11-30) gear issue with two bikes with this group. Tested 5 cassettes, 4 chains, 2 wheelsets (Shimano C50 and DT Swiss stock wheels), new hangers. Multiple bike shops reviewed it. Shimano sent a new cassette under warranty. Nothing solved the problem until I filed down the one tooth the chain gets stuck on causing the noise. Seems insane to me. Never had any issue like this with 10 and 11 Ultegra groups.
Sir, How many spokes for a carbon fiber wheel be advised for a big size rider weighing over 120KG ?. Awesome Video & Thanks :)
It's all about personal preference
Now we just need a rim brake edition
As soon as hand crank starters on cars come back, rim brakes will make a big return.
Can the new Ultegra cranks take the 54/40 dura ace chainrings instead of the 52/36 that comes with the Ultegra?
Fitment-wise, it may, but the contours between the chainrings and crankarm may have a mismatch.
@@yonglingng5640 thanks 👍
Thanks. Janky bar tape though.
Do you think it's still a better choice than force considering that it is more or less 50% more expensive (1200 force vs 1800 ultegra more or less)
For me if not considering the price I'll definitely go for Ultegra.
Shimano is just superior in road and for SRAM? I'll wait for their new gen for sure.
I have SRAM force. I really like the simplicity of it and the gearing works really well. Haven't had any issues and only crisp shifting. I will say SRAM front mech shifts slower than Shimano. But SRAM shifting feels faster in the back and a bit smoother at the front. But aside from that hope you were able to get your handset on the group set you wanted.
So is it better than SRAM Force ?
Don’t know what they did but on a previous version of an Ultegea crank two riders I met on a ride said that the snapped a crank. Separate events but essentially the same side (left I think) at more or less the same location. I have never heard of this before so it may have been a fluke.
I have used Shimao exclusively for over 20 years. However, my latest set of Ultegra crranks delaminated, almost causing a wreck as the bike froze up completely. I replaced the crankset with Sram red carbon. My new 2023 Canyon has the Sram Force. Will never back to Shimano.
Absolutely!!!
SRAM has saved me on multiple occasions when I have forgotten to charge my batteries. At least I still have 12 gears to get home, not just the Shimano 1
Hood batteries failing are an issue, seen it multiple times now on a small sample size, 1 bike was 3 months old
Hood battery failing unexpectedly here too, from 3/4 to zero in a month without any use. Especially annoying as the battery failed in the middle of the ride.
@@frankmoran167 my SRAM hood battery failed mid ride on a bike not even 6 month and 2500 km old. When the first warning came in my garmin, it was basically already to late. Well, i have a replacement battery in my saddle back now just in case.
The cranks ain't going to fail in 6 months. Took 4 years for me
Nice video. 👏👏👏 The Ultegra 11-speed Di2 is offered with a 11-34 rear cassette in the medium cage rear derailleur configuration. For those who need to be more cost conscious, the Ultegra 11-speed Di2 is something to consider since you can still find it on sale and it is hundreds AND hundreds of dollars cheaper then the new 12-speed.
If I ever go Di2, third-generation is enough for me.
The 11 speed works great, Ive got 5000 miles on it and very happy.
Like David says its an incremental improvement to 12 speed. No little battery in shifter seems good.
@@bradsanders6954 👍
HOW LONG DID THE REAR DERALLEUR Di2 CHARGE LAST? Shimano claims 1000km when set up wireless but my experience with Dura Ace R9200 series is much less - more like 500km. ANy thoughts?
Do you shift the front derailleur a lot? Or did you do a lot of shifting in general? Battery consumption isn't determined by mileage but by shifting frequency, especially the front derailleur that has the larger motor that uses more juice to power.
@@yonglingng5640 I didnt do a lot of extra shifting. I have experience with 11-speed Dura Ace Di2 where each charge lasted over 2000km and I shift in a similar way during similar length / similar elevation rides on both bikes.
Sounds like you might have a faulty battery? Have you checked with the shop you bought it from or Shimano?
@@davidarthur thanks I did check with them. THey are on it.
As a rider who rides both groupsets regularly. I much prefer the ultegra. The sram just feels like I'm holding a coke can, and is uncomfortable to hold in every way. More often than not, I can't tell if it has actually shifted either and the ultegra has a more solid click in the shifter so you know when it has shifted. The sram looks horrendous compared to the ultegra, and it just runs out of charge much faster too. I can't say I prefer anything about the sram force over the ultegra. The ultegra has built in Bluetooth as well 😂 the ultegra literally beats force etap in every way 😂
1000 miles is what my 11 speed Ultegra goes on a battery charge, easy to keep track of.
Hmm Sram's wide range of options comes at a ridiculous price. You want a 54/41 for your local crit scene - that will be £1k please as it only seems to be sold with the Quarq. Given the cassette ratio's available their 10spd cog on a road bike seems the worse way to use an added gear. Then you are stuck with their flat top chains. Love their MTB chains for training as they last well, but their chains always test poorly in friction tests. Their original wireless 11spd (apart from the large blip box) was great for TT's, but now they seem to base the groupsets gearing around all road type riders.
Love ultegra. The wheels not so much. Did 800 miles and the rear was done: bearings shot. Non serviceable hub. Shimano wouldn't replace as said they'd had heavy usage (800 miles only) over winter!
Is that chain waxed?
8 Month with 0 Problems so far. In 4 Month it will compete with the Force on my Trek we will see ...
Bicicleta preciosa😍🤩
I’m sure all their electronic groupsets are nice, but DA 12 speed should be the price of Ultegra, and Ultegra should cost what 105 is, and 105 a few hundred less than its current price. Shimano value themselves too highly!
If they priced it too high, they won’t sell. They seem to be selling, so…
@@NoahStephens I wasn’t saying they wouldn’t sell. I was saying prices are far too high. Especially bike prices!
Maybe Shimano wheels are not so popular anymore because of the cup-and-cone bearings. A nightmare to service. Once had to replace the whole hub because the races were scratched. Since then, I only buy wheels with changeable bearings.
Cup & cone are very easy to service and require fewer special tools than replacing a cartridge. Its the very reason they're still popular with touring bikes. And cartridges end up landfill waste.
@@cjohnson3836 If the cups are replaceable, then it's completely OK. Permanent ones aren't really ideal.
@@cjohnson3836 Oh, all the balls rolling about... loose one and you are done. Then, if the tension is not right, things will go south immediately. And if the cups are not replaceable, the hub or the whole wheel ends as landfill. If you are a mechanic, maybe ok. If you are a TdF pro mechanic, you just take a new wheel, ok. As a home mechanic, no thanks.
I live servicing my cup and cones hubs. But I understand how it could be annoying for others.
@@Benus128 How often do you have to service them? My cartridge bearing wheels have seen 3.500 km and I do not feel any need to touch them. At what mileage should one take action, even when there are no signs of wear?
not sure why they got rid of the 53x39, only for dura -ace, very dumb
Big money
So the only downside of SRAM Force is the hood shape? Unless there is more to it, I cant see why you are favouring Shimano. You also forget to mention the power meter with SRAM and from my perspective, the variety of options on SRAM is a massive benefit.
I don't like Force eTap AXS due to the following:
Relatively slow front derailleur (compared to even third-generation Di2)
DOT fluid disc brakes
SRAM DUB (not ideal for BB standards with a small internal diameter) + high crankset installation torque spec
Flattop chain (I don't believe there's an aftermarket counterpart, one with at least enlarged rollers)
As an rider who used to use force, let me list it out for you.
1) front chain drops when shifting under load
2) small pad clearance distance
3) no hyperglide
4) no hood button
5) SRAM cassette is significantly more expensive
6) one less shifter lever makes shifting the front ring less instantaneous
I bought a Force Axs bike, partly because 12 speed Ultegra wasn't released. I messed around with limit screws and front derailleur kept dropping the chain...each time bike shop thought they'd fixed it, same issue. Took 2 months to figure out.
Now the positives...since then it's been perfect. Shifting speed great... apparently the rear shifts similar to di2...Front supposed to be much better on Ultegra. Checked the stats on my last 2 hour ride - changed the front 6 times (80 odd at the back), so can live with that. Like the look of it, the shifters are Great. Ultimately got a bike at a price I liked, upgrading from 105 5800, so it's night and day.
2 months after I bought, Canyon released 12 sp Ultegra bikes, so would have been tempted had my timing been different, but I really can't complain.
Now seeing 105 di2 on £7k bikes...that would make me sad...no matter what they say about shifting performance.
Appreciate the feedback here but everyone has missed the point. The title of the video suggests Shimano Ultegra DI2 is superior to SRAM Force eTAP, but the video doesn't back the title. He mentions one negative for SRAM (the hood shape), on every other measure, eTAP was better (according to David). And he left stuff out (like the built in power meter, sequential shifting). Its not an objective or complete assessment.
@@yodaandthebike5839 The groupset's powermeter, which is a spider-based module, is optional.
I'll pass on the wires, lone battery and prefer the shifting style on SRAM. Didn't have any preconceived notion about shifting on mechanical shifters so the SRAM setup ended up feeling much nicer.
David, actually Ultegra was coined from the words "ultimate" and "Integrity" and now everyone knows I'm a Shimano snob. 😎
The lack of removable battery is a complete non-starter for me.
You're must forgot about Shimano ..- only Sram AXS ! Don't care about muddy or rainy weather .Shifting gear very sharp like flash thunderstorm⚡️
Everyone I ride with who has tried both, says its Di2 hands down.
I cant wait to re program my Di2 shifters to use the buttons under hoods, etc.--------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There are still riders in the group saying "rim brakes are great! Dont need discs" or "no advantage to Di2"...............crazy talk.
Eu não vejo necessidade de trocar a minha R5 freio no aro por uma outra (que custará o dobro do preço) só por causa do freio a disco... Moro em uma região com poucas subidas e descidas íngremes...
Having the brains of the system in the rear mech means expensive replacement job if you ever bin it and damage the mech, which is far from a rare occurrence. Also the failure of the bonded cranks takes a while to appear, come back in another 6 months to see if they actually fixed it.
I have a theory on this. I think that the fit, between the spider and the chainring, is so tight that any sweat that enters that interface compounds the compression. I have started removing the chainrings periodically and greasing the interface generously. It's not on the Shimano service/maintenance schedule, but it hasn't hurt.
@@DEAR7340 Every time I get to remove Shimano cranksets off customers' bikes, I'd remove the chainrings to check on the condition, especially Ultegra and Dura-Ace. A few of them would go by unnoticed had I not do it.
@@yonglingng5640 Is this something you recommend to do preventive on my bike? I have the 12s di2 one.
@@kadooosh It doesn't hurt to have it checked every now and then, consider this as preventive maintenance. I can't say a ton of people know about this potential issue, even for riders who aren't crazy powerful or sweaty.
Now that I myself have an Ultegra FC-R8000, I'd do the same once it's in use.
Ultegra mechanical vs 105 di2
All of a sudden Campag looks about 10 years out of date and I can’t believe they are still in business. A shame because it’s the brand I want to like the most but it been run into the ground with a lack of development and investment.
I've heard that campy gear is really durable. Is that true? If so maybe people just don't have to replace as much. Thinking of switching over myself but my mechanic hates working on campy.
@@universe-juice I’ve worked on Campy a few times and it’s a pig to get working just right and it’s a mile off Shimano for refinement and function. A few years ago Shimano really perfected group sets and now they’ve taken things up another notch. SRAM have mixed things up a bit and they have new group sets in final testing which will be interesting. Campag have done a cable gravel bike group set that looks half finished 🤔
@@universe-juice I'm not sure what your mechanic hates about Campag, but I hate it due to it being proprietary.
Shift housing
Universal: 4 mm
Campag: 4.1 mm
Brake housing
Universal: 5 mm
Campag: 4.9 mm
This act sounds deliberate to me.
@@yonglingng5640 HA! Your probably right
@@yonglingng5640 never had a issue with inner or outer cable..i just by them off the shelf.... i have run shimano. jag wire on my 11 speed record.. with no issues
Dave, it's alot easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission
Asking for permission gets forgotten quickly, asking for forgiveness is remembered forever!
To answer your question YES Shimano is better
I just dont like that Shimano isnt „wireless“ and i dont like the cable on the back - sram is so easy to use and you can switch battery from the Front derailleur to the back if the battery is low in seconds
Or just hop off, fit your spare battery and keep riding
ultegra di2 vs force axs
shifting Rd = same
shifting FD = ulte di2
weight = ulte di2
battery = axs
on bambpy road = axs
brake = same
nosy chain on light gravel = axs
conclusn = axs all the way 😂😂😂😂
The BIKE was created to be off the grid!
They should just go back to call it Shimano 600
Once you’ve got permission to buy a new bike…from your bank manager!
Well, at least SRAM crank is made in carbon fiber and doesn't split in half.
Force is terrible..slow shifting and the big ring chain drops appear from nowhere..should have stayed with Shimano.
Your bartape looks uneven on top
Why don't you make like a tree and SRAM?
I just ordered a new bike and went for neither of these groupsets. Instead, I went for a 105 11 speed mechanical group by choice, not because of cost reasons. for the average rider, there is no point in anything more than this in my opinion.
Force is no match for the di2...not even by a long shot.
haha 😂 Ultegra is a joke, no offense. I dont see it practical, because there is almost no difference in weight and performance against 105 di2. The weight difference doesn’t justify the price. Now, going from 105 to Dura Ace is a whole new level. I can say from my experience that Dura Ace is worth it.
So if you can wait and save a little bit more get Dura Ace but if you are short im money get 105 .
Campy always wins
Of course it is
Shimano wheels are neither the best performers nor best value, and the wheel game is more competitive than ever. Shimano must be paying pro teams a LOT of $ to ride their meh rims over far lighter/stiffer/etc ones…
Shimano looks high end. Sram looks cheap.
Sram is just overpriced
Why you should you? That title Grammer is killing me. I just can't get past it. I tried to keep scrolling, but I'm broken now.
this video was paided by shimano
Except it wasn’t
About 2 seconds of content about Sram ETap only....seems a little biased....just saying....
Shimano on road is better than sram.
It's just another out of touch sycophant review. hold the manufacturers to account, or just be viewed as being bent over for their pleasure
No, electronic groupsets are stupid.
You don't need it but you LL love it