SRAM Force AXS is ALMOST the Best Groupset of 2023…
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- SRAM has launched brand new Force AXS groupset and I’ve been riding it in Belgium to put it through its paces. On first impressions it doesn’t look massively different to the Force that launched in 2019 on the heels of Red, SRAM’s range-topping groupset. But there are a few interesting changes and improvements
The biggest one are the smaller hoods from Rival have trickled up to Force but with carbon fiber levers. They are much more ergonomic and nicer to use - not quite on a par with Shimano’s new 12 speed Di2, but a good move.
And then there’s a brand new crankset which is a trickle down from Red, and this is a controversial move. The two chainrings are made as one piece with the power meter - so you can’t remove or change the rings for wear or ratio preference
SRAM cites improved shifting performance and lower weight as a benefit outweighing the obvious negative. It’s available with or without a power meter, but the non power version can be upgraded at a later date. It’s a Quarq power meter, 1.5% accuracy, left and right leg power balance,
And lastly they’ve updated the appearance aiming to make it more premium and high-end. Get this, they call this pearlescent finish unicorn grey!
More SRAM info bit.ly/3kwe4Vr
Content
00:00 Intro
00:27 No new RED or APEX?
00:54 New hoods
1:31 New Finish
2:15 One-piece cranks
3:29 New rear mech
3:51 What hasn’t changed
4:20 Price
5:03 First Ride Impressions
10:09 Some thoughts… Best Groupset in 2023?
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I'm running the old SRAM Force and love it. The little noise it makes in sequential shifting when moving from the big to granny gear and vice versa never gets old!
You have the best cycling vids on RUclips. I really appreciate your analysis and videography. Brilliant!
Hello David, nice share. Thank you.
Thanks for sound advice.
No worries!
Great review Dave.
Big Congrats on the 3 year anniversary!
I’m planning to swap over to road disc finally and plan to also swap from Shimano over to SRAM.
For me I’m happy there has not been any radial changes to the group set update. If it works and is reliable don’t mess with it.
I already have garmin Rally 200 pedals which have been great so don’t need a power meter. However similar to many others in the comments I definitely wouldn’t buy this new power meter chain ring set up.
congrats on 3 - enjoyed many of your videos - new force looks competitive - I have Shimano di2 on my bikes last Sram was Red mechanical - time to try Sram electronic
Cool, thanks!
Congrats on the 3 year new job Anniversary David!
Thanks Nik
3 years! congrats!
Very enjoyable & thorough review of the new Force. I learned a lot. Testing such groupset on one of the toughest terrain on Earth, makes this presentation even valuable.
Thank you so much David. I personally think "if someone wants to know everything on cycling hardware, you have to watch David & Ben, you won't need something else".
Ah! And wish you success to your jobs & projects!
This feels like a paid comment. Very odd.
@Tom Andrews Not at all my friend. Being accurate, serious AND funny is not common ground in RUclipsrs and reviews...
I have seen many crappy reviews and opinions from passionate but prejudiced persons that made me limit my "following" list to a minimum of 10 for all my interests. Among them there are Ben and David who caught my attention even from their previous activities.
Thanks for your review! How wide were your tires?
So the fix to chain drops was to integrate the power meter and both front rings into one unit? Not sure if this was an improvement.
Yep , been riding/racing 30 yrs now with shimano, and never had chain dropping issues ! I’ve had sram force for around seven month on my Giant Revolt pro1 [ set up gravel mode] and its dropped the chain 5 times , 3 times in traffic riding home from gravel roads , and in a dangerous position] , im nearly ready to give up on sram , constant adjusting , 5 times in 4,000 km is a serious problem SRAM , I generally ride 15 to 20 km per year , and I’ve tried everything with this bike , I’ll be going for a GRX shimano swap out soon I think !
Would love to see a service cost comparison between the different levels of sram and the offerings from shimano, or more specifically how many service intervals will it take for the sram groupset to catch up to the cost of the equivalent shimano one with the added cost of the integrated chainrings, XDR cassettes, and smaller wear tolerances with the flat top chains
GCN implied that according to sram, the flat top chains should be more wear resistant. Don't ask me why however
Just chiming in I switched to force last year. I used to replace shimano chains at about 4000km (each chain varied based on conditions some at 3000 (winter riding) some at 5,000 (summer chains). I'd go through 1 chain every month to 1.5 months. I've ridden sram chains in all conditions and after about 5000km (varied terrain), compared it to a new chain little to no wear. I'm high cadence and a pretty big guy 6 ft 4 189 pounds. I don't trust sram about the percentages of chainrings returned blindly but I have not had any complaints about durability. I Can now go through 3 chains per year. And disc rotors last me more than a year. Pads on sram do wear out a bit faster but honestly the day to day cost is cheaper for sure. I Don't know how long it would take to make up the difference, as everyone rides a bit different. But I'd say they are pretty spot on.
@@jaspreetsidhu5708 Thanks for the user experience share! How often are you changing the dot fluid? I have SRAM on my CX bike and have switched to scintered pads as I was going brake pads every month (won't be as bad for road riding)
@@ollyole4560 I just change out the dot fluid each year. Only because it's what my bike shop recommended. Usually around June I'll flush it out. Ride until next June and then repeat.
so glad as force etap axs user. there is nothing changed in shifting performance. updating of few hardwares
Congratulations on three years!
Thank you!!
There's no expander plug support when you lower the stem without cutting the steer tube. The emonda uses a proprietary plug and does not offer an extended version. Ask me how I know.
David, I have Ultegra R8000 Mechanical Disc group set. No experience with electronic. How would the new 2023 Force compare in shifting speed and drivetrain noise? Looking to upgrade my group set on my limited Sagan Tarmac.
If you liked the old Force you’ll like the new Force because it’s functionally identical to the old Force.
Yeah but it's sparkly now.
with the red components for the same Force price... but yeah.
I’m running sram rival with red crankset to save weight. I really like the design and color of the updated force group set. 🤔Maybe I’ll move over my current setup to my wife’s bike.😅
have been riding rival for 18 months but keep thinking about getting the red crankset...nice to hear you thought the same (but actually did it !)
@@global_nomad. Yes, it definitely adds more bling to my bike. To the non hardcore parts knowing cyclist, they see red crankset and assume my whole groupo is red AXS😂😂
3 years have gone quick! 👏😁
I will definitely be avoiding it, all being one piece. How much weight have they saved doing it that way?
100g apparently
I am sure 105di2 can be had for cheaper than force in the real world separate groupset market. I just bought it and actually the best price for the old force ( which was heavily discounted! was still about 200 euros more than 105di2 ). Rival definitely undercuts 105 a little. So Rival, 105, Force, Ultegra, Red, Dura ace is about the order in terms of pricing.
But seriously integrated powermeter in chainrings is really a no go. Even if you dont wear it out fast. I would wear it out in about 4-5 years of riding. At some point in the future nobody wants to spend that amount of cash on what is then an older bike. And who knows if you can still get those powermeters 10 years from now.... nah. What is wrong110x5 bcd sram?
And take into account chainings sometimes get damaged or have a tooth break off.
For RED I can understand, since its a no compromise racing performance groupset. For force not so much.
Thank you for this great video. I am currently using both Shimano R8170 and Sram Red AXS. In the next generation of Sram groupset I was eagerly looking forward to much smaller hoods as the Shimano ones just offer much better handling experience. Also the disc brake pad clearance is something I hope for too. However none of them is on the menu. I am not really happy with the intergrated crankset on my Red AXS groupset because I do not want to change the quarq power metre together with the worn out chainrings. Force AXS aims at the masses, so I wonder why they focus so much on the stiffness of the crankset and use integrated chainrings, instead of considerably lower the potential costs for their consumers, in order to appeal to the wider market. Sram says only 0.7% of their consumers do have those problems but obviously but if that happens to me it would be a way to expensive replacement. In my country luckily we can get the Shimano Ultegra R8170 groupset at the same price of current Force AXS, so I would recommend my friends to go for the former one if they decide to buy new groupsets.
Did they fix the front shifting?
I like everything but the front chain ring should still have opinion to change ring if one wears out. Also if force is geared towards common consumer one and done front ring kinda Pushes out that consumer am I wrong?
What tires and size did You use in this video ?
Finally that plaggy crankset has been chunked in the trashcan. Still, pretty expensive if I would upgrade from Rival (crankset), Red PM crankset money for the integrated PM on this new Force.
Thinking of upgrading my mechanical ultegra groupset which isn’t even 2 years old yet… thinking of scram force?? Ultegra di2 is so expensive
That’s some top level clickbait Mr Arthur. Looking forward to seeing what’s new in the group set though
The pogo connection pins on the mechs are junk. The spring on mine broke unexpectedly and had to use a piece of aluminium foil to bridge the gap between the battery and the connector pin to complete the circuit. Needs improvement.
Fantastic video!! Sram baby
This video is so good i thought this channel was GCN. Lol
hoods/lever improvement = great.
single rear for 10-28 to 10-36 = great. graphics = great.
...But not loving the single machined chainring. It's why I didnt go Red previously. That said the anodized black over Red's silver chainring is great.
then just buy the crank arms, or the cram arm with left sided power meter built into the crank arm, and then just replace chain rings like normal. They have that option now
6:00 very brave of you not riding in the gutter on the Taaienberg 🙂
Want my value for money from the cobbles!
@@davidarthur 💪
I have Sram Force it's awesome but, I've always like the SRAM Red Chain ring. So I wonder how much is a new Force crank set cost, the same as the original? Seriously I'm digging that black chain ring.
$275 USD
@@kellrockets101 with power meter?
@Ken Smith no sorry...just crank I believe. I'll have to recheck. I believe the power metet and crank was 800
@@kellrockets101 still thats purty cheap, I have to have one.
@@KenSmith-bv4si me too!
Front derailleur looks like alien from NOSTROMO attached to bike😂
How does it compare to Rival?
No surprise they opted to go with the most profitable options ! We are definitely treated with contempt!
congradulations on your RUclips success !
Off topic but those 404 hubs are loud 🙈 Any comments on the Emonda with that tire/wheel setup?
The 30mm tyres which measure wider (I'll dig out my callipers) at 55psi were amazing on the cobbled roads. Loads of comfort, traction and control. The wheels are fast but definitely a handful in really strong crosswinds. I'll do a video on how the bike and setup rides in the next couple of weeks
@@davidarthur Thanks, looking forward to the video
RED crank + Force Chainring incl. Quarq Power Meter was cheaper for me than buying the all Force crank. And there is an additional weight loss.
Nice group for the masses. Why the pros don't use 48 cranks. In racing crits what I've seen is the use of Shimano's 52 cranks. May be I'm wrong...I don't know.
so when the chain rings wear out, the whole crank and chainrings and powermeeter are garbage? did I hear that right?
This all sounds great. Just use a different crankset obviously, but thats an easy swap
Would love a video comparing rival with the new force 😊
Noted!
@@davidarthur and against shimano too like the new ultegra
Will they support rim brakes? What about integrated buttons to control a bike computer?
Nope, disc only.... boooo
No & no
Rubbish
Rim grinder brake is dead
Am I hearing this correctly? If you worn your chainrings you have to replace whole crankset with power meter?!
Yep
But it last well over 15k miles… so
Yes, they want your wallet
@@naisbest3020 Maybe 15k miles is a long time for you, but to me that’s about 18 months. And if you’re doing less than that, why do you need the added stiffness it’s supposed to deliver in the first place?
It’s just marketing BS - fix your brakes and front shifting before flogging me improved chainring stiffness…. 🙄🤦♂️
Are those new Hoods compatible with previous Force group set?
Yes!
@@davidarthur Wicked Pissah Cool 😎 thanks
How did they fix the front shifting ?
It's not given me any problems so far even with three days of riding over cobbles where you might reasonably expect a problem to arise
I wonder what size tire the front mech can accomodate? Same as before?
Yup same as before they do a Wide version still
So after three bikes with SRAM Force and the current one with Force AXS, I don’t see any reason for the new Force. Not being able to replace individual chainrings is a no-go. As some have mentioned, the aesthetics to me are nothing special. I like the RED crankset but the Force one in black seems to appear pretty cheap. And the iridescent decals are horrible. But even further, Shimano Ultegra has just proven to be so good that I am ready to go back to Shimano on the next bike. I also think the new Ultegra just looks better now.
the iridescent looks great. when you go back to shimano let me know...Ill take your force axs from you. Great group!
well if you say it sucks then that is pretty much the end of your RUclips channel so everyone knows that you will have a glowing review before they even watch your video. That is the problem with all of the RUclips shills, everything is great and everything new is better than everything old. Rinse and repeat.
The big question is have they changed from Dot 4 to mineral oil yet?
The brakes are only aesthetically different. No different to the last gen otherwise so DOT4 stays.
@@Roger101Watson oh that’s a shame! As there were rumours that their new mtb range was ditching Dot4
@@Roger101Watson their new DB8 mtb brakes have switch to mineral oil and that has doubled the maintenance period from from a re bleed every year to every two years.
@@lovecycling193 It's going to be a slow change over certainly not happening in the road/gravel for some time with the new Force launch. Might see some changes as they update the MTB range.
how can you tell apart the new one from the old one? they have the same name
they way they look?
@@davidarthur yeah, but online shops don't have the best pictures sometimes, I guess look for something that sparkles on the crankset or derailleur. From text component description you can't tell if it's gen1 or gen2.
New shifters look better but it’s a bit of a lazy lick of paint and some new decals cheer up job. The new Red looks like it’s going to be a bit more interesting 🤔
Shimano’s Ultegra is the best. If only they can give us a properly working power meter too.
They don't have a properly working power meter, and quarq is so damn good and easy to work
So flashy look and removed functionality , I will stick with my current Force and buy Rival in the future?
which removed functionality is that?
@@davidarthur The hood shape is noticeably different from previously, the reduced radius bringing Force into line with third-tier Rival. SRAM has achieved this by removing the pad contact adjustment (you still get reach adjustment), saying that few people made use of this facility, and ditching the auxiliary port for attaching a Blip for remote shifting.
@@johndinsdale1707 You don't lose Blip support, you use the wireless ones, as I showed on this bike. True you lose contact adjustment but SRAM's explanation when I asked them is that most people never used it. Still some people will miss it but it might be a small price to pay for the smaller hoods. Time will tell I guess
I would not buy as well, the hoods from two years back and the chainring from three. Am also reluctant as no proof of the chain falling or cracking sound that the groupset is notorious for. I expected an evolution of the groupset and what we can see is a bit of concoction. I think that sram will have to correct this soon or maybe they are planning to put everything new on their top tier group-set which might be over priced. Let us see. In the meantime, am very happy with the new ultegra and I will buy that again if I have to
Surprised about your review. Always felt you have a preference for Shimano.
In all honesty I like bits from both groupsets - my dream groupset would combine different aspects from each. Which do you prefer?
@@davidarthur I have currently two group sets - a brand new Campagnolo Chorus (mechanical) which I love. I also just built a bike with a SRAM Red because I like the aesthetics and the technology. I fully realize that most pros and enthusiasts would chose a DURA ACE over a SRAM but I really wanted to support a tech driven American company and that’s what I went for. Thanks for your great videos
A groupset for the masses. Nice review David!
What is this petrol reflective bike helmet?
It’s a HJC helmet, there’s a link on the description
@@davidarthurs there some special custom coating on it? Can't find one with those reflective effect.
Nothing special I think it might be a new colour way I’ll check
I upgraded my Aethos entirely to RED... except the hoods...still Rival:-). IMO, they nailed this new FORCE... the Gen1 Force looked clunky, cheap, and was too heavy for what it was supposed to be.
my mini group campagnolo centaur 11 speed works great too... 238 euros :) you wont be faster with sram force axs groupset ... Prices now in bike industry are from another planet !!! I wait for next top level bike at 20000 usd lol
I hate it not having rim brakes capable. The chain rings I am not a fan of, but would not be a deal breaker.
You are ALMOST not wrong 😂
what glasses has he got on?
Can’t believe the new Force groupset costs the same as a Shimano 105 di2 here in the real world. If I spec’d a 2023 Orbea Orca identically with the Shimano di2 105, the old Sram Rival and the old Sram Force then the Shimano bike comes out the cheapest, the Rival equipped bike costs $400 more and the Force equipped bike is a whopping $1500 more expensive. This is with all other things equal ie. same frame, same fork, same saddle, same bars and headset, same wheelset and tires. Both the Rival and Force build come out significantly more expensive.
Likely, manufacturers get a bulk deal from Shimano that’s better than SRAM, so even if the groups for consumers to buy are cheaper, that won’t reflect in bike prices unfortunately. It’s one of the reasons why I build from the frame up.
@@bebopman5 Since manufacturers can source parts more cheaply it’s usually cheaper to buy a complete bike off the shelf unless you’re putting together a Franken bike off of EBay. Buying just a brand new frame from the manufacturer is usually exhorbitantly expensive and then you have to pay retail for the groupset too. But that’s neither here nor there, the bottom line is the Shimano 105 di2 bike is still cheaper than either Sram build.
Gee 1. Piece. Hate to see how much for a replacement of a worn chain ring
If is true that it is the same price as 105 I buy it 👍
I know you're comparing MSRP but Shimano 105 Di2 is in stock and can be at your doorstep for €1200 as of today (2-mar-23). The MSRP is quite a bit higher. I know these values make it so you can compare products at launch but in the end you are going to pay market prices for them. I don't think you can make the point of saying that this new Force groupset (2nd tier) costs the same as the Shimano 105 Di2 (third tier) because in reality the price difference is already almost €800 (€1200 vs. €1980). We have to see what the market price for Force will be, it will undoubtedly be under that €1980, but I think it will still be quite a bit higher priced than Shimano 105 Di2.
That's why it's always a little tricky talking about prices because there are various discounts around the world and currency fluctuations, so sticking to RRP is the easiest plan really. I think the actual bike prices will be more relevant as only a few people will buy the groupset to build a bike themselves
In comparison, my next groupset will be a Duraace 11spd mechanical rim brake group... as soon as its back in stock. Available for the same price as 105 Elecy. Much lighter, and performs great even with these funny old fashioned retro 'legacy' cable thingamajigs .... assuming a sensible cable routed frame from +5years ago or so, and not the modern 'advancements'.
@@nellyx1x493 Yea there is absolutely no reason for any non-pro to have all the technology on their bikes a pro has. Dura Ace R9100 will perform amazing no doubts about that. My 105 (5800) rim brake bike also performs absolutely fine. It has come down to marginal gains and these companies are looking for them everywhere and the marketing machine does overtime on making customers believe they need all that. For a pro, every watt saved might result in a win or a 2nd place on the line, but for the average joe? Not so much. But is it cool to see all these developments and new technology, heck yeah!
Have you tried buying a Dura-Ace 11 speed mechanical rim brake groupset? Because I have an I have failed so far! I don't think it's going to be coming back in stock, Shimano don't make it anymore do they
@@davidarthur Oh no, you might be right... Ultegra 11 rim is available again, but maybe this is just old stock. I cant see the point on going to 12spd on a rim braked bike, which is officially now legacy heritage ware....am on old Sram Red 10spd and don't fancy adding around half a kilo to my build. Might have to go Record, though seems mighty hard to get hold of that at a reasonable price too.
Basically just rival with new paddles and cranks with old red rings
I'm still counting the money I saved keeping my 10 speed Schwinn
I’ll stick to Ultegra thanks
Climbing in the White Mountains of New Hampshire USA 🇺🇸 is kinda like riding the cobbles 😂😂😂
Really not a worthwhile upgrade IMO. Sticking with red components and rival axs shifters on my current bike. Oil slick can be obtained easily with titanium bolts, bottle cages, etc... Not ideal on a cassette that is just going to get dirty.
Gotta throw out a GOOD power meter when replacing the worn chainrings,VERY COSTLY & a NO GO
No, you don’t have to. Get the spindle power meter option instead…it’s cheaper as well.
Shimano fan boys was here.
Sram said it had 0.7% of their total red chainrings changed for wear since its release ... the fear that you'll have buy a whole new one for a worn chainring is a moot point now
SRAM can say whatever they want. The philosophy behind the integrated PM and the wireless blips is still crap.
@@LainOTN we can philosophy all we want. The reality is that it has been working just fine for enough years now so it we have zero reason to think it wont continue to be so.
and the wireless blimps are great. if you cant afford $100 every 2-3 years then dont get them. ill take the flexibility of putitng them where the hell I want w zero worries about wire lengths... and move them again if I want when I re do my bar tape...its awesome.
Nope, an expendable power meter can absolutely not be classed as "the best" and the media/cycling journalist should be extremely critical of SRAMs wasteful Red & now Force design & calling them out on that practice, not just a footnote...throw away power meters, throw away blips (new ones have non rechargable/replacable batteries), SRAM is going the opposite way that they should, world is going more environment conscious, SRAM is going "screw the consumer and everyone, make them throw away perfectly functional components..."...
What a horrific prospect having to throw away a power meter everytime you change chain / chainset?? What the hell are SRAM thinking of?? No one would persuade me to buy this group set no matter how reasonable the cost! What's wrong with a few titanium bolts and a normal chainset? i hope no one agrees with SRAM thinking on this mistake! Sticking with Shimano thanks!
Not surprising coming from a brand that is still using a LOT of plastic in their packagings in 2023...
@@Yeahwhatdoesthatmean What a poor solution: 1) Unnecessary shipment back and forth 2) Unnecessary extra packaging 3) Downtown: who knows when i get my new PM shipped 4) Nice, a discount if i trade in a fully functional powermeter, so instead of paying 0 dollars (re-use the power meter i already have), i can get just buy a new one for a discounted price at +400USD because 0USD and +400USD is basically the same, right?
No matter how you spin it, this is an incredible poor implementation
The chainring last 10k-15k miles… how often are you guys passing kind of mileage…
@@naisbest3020 every couple of years is feasible. Even if it's only every 5, that's a lot more frequent than replacing a separate power meter.
Calling it 'unicorn grey' turns me off it completely, feels like such a millennial marketing gimmick
Sounds like an ad
Yet it's not. Would I have said what I said about the chainset if it was an ad?
@David Arthur - Just Ride Bikes yes David but more criticism on that chainsaw was due including the sustainability and environmental impact,appreciate your reply though
I’ve contacted SRAM to explore this further. Apparently only 0.7% of people with RED have had to replace/recycle the chainrings though so maybe less of an issue than we fear it is
The aesthetic cant be compared to shimano... The finish here looks so cheap imo.. Like some ordinary black paint. If you look at great valuably looking ultegra it is way better...
Shimano Forever
Force chain ring is way better looking
Not being able to replace chainrings is complete nonsense.
Does nobody in here realize you can simply opt out of the chainring power meter and instead of buy the cheaper crank arm version? Talk about dismay over a problem you don’t ever need to experience.
The derailleur and front mech are just so ugly!
The 105 at 4:47 is much better looking. All in all, I would rather have the 105.
First!!
I rather have shimano sora..
sram axs derailleurs are so ugly.
SRAM, american, yes. Always BEST.
More proprietary BS.
Totally disagree , I’ve had constant chain dropping issues with sram force asx 2x12 speed , total rubbish ! Never had chain dropping in my last 30 years of Triathlon / road and MTB racing , I’m still riding around 15 to 20,000 km per year and in the last seven months since owning a sram set up bike its dropped the chain 5 times for no apparent reason , NEVER AGAIN WILL I TOUCH SRAM !!! Look nice but dont ride it , good for wall mounting ONLY !!
I am starting to doubt this channel opinion. It baffles me why they don’t point out the ridiculous idea of the power meter when its not an improvement when they criticized other things in the past. I think they are getting paid by Sram to do a review on this and told them not to say anything on the power meter.
If this is true, I am unsubscribing because I don’t want to watch another GCN channel
If you watch the entire video you'll see I cast doubt on the one-piece chainset. I've asked SRAM for data on how many people have used have to replace chainrings on the same Red chainset since 2019 (according to rumours it's just 0.7%) - so I wonder if the fear of the chainrings wearing out is less of an issue than some people fear it might be? I've also asked people on Twitter with Red chainsets what their experience has been over the past few years
The hardest roads are in Romania and Bulgaria.
"Unicorn grey" ...................How exciting!!!!...........................Not really............................