frame for what the bike is and feels like (wheel choise accordingly). handlebars make a difference of course. but the components are more for funktionality. like 1x or 2x, gear choise, and so on. but colour is so important, l don't like how little options are out the quite often. the chinese actually do a great job with affordable fully custom paint jobs
I think the frame fit is most important. Components may add weight, or weigh less, but if you are optimizing your position on a really nice frame, you are going to love the feel, which will make you seem like you are faster even if you aren’t.
Frame fit is most important - you can always change components on your frame to your liking, but the frame is the frame - that's essentially the bike skeleton - it can't be adjusted.
The frame is more important because it's the foundation, you build up from there and switch out literally everything else. The frame determines 90% of the ride characteristics. This video show you're just tinkering around the edges in terms of ride feel and responsiveness
@@gcntechaero Vs light weight gravel race bike. Say ostro or, kias or, 3t or, aspero vs crux or, stigmata. I know you have your sponsors, see what they can get you.
I haven't been able to ride two of the "same" bikes back to back, but there are several things I've noticed make an instant and noticeable difference when changed on the same individual bike in my experience: - Swapping inner tubes. When I went from butyl to latex inner tubes, I really had to stop and check for a puncture a couple of times on my first ride, the bike felt just SO soft and smooth, despite everything else being the same (tyre pressure, tyres, wheels), apart from the inner tubes. - Dry and/or dirty chain vs clean and well lubricated one. The clean one just feels so smooth that it really makes me feel more connected to my bike. - Oddly enough, going from 50/34 to 52/36 chainrings. I don't know if it kind of gave me gear ratios in between the previous setup, or the fact that I am now more towards the middle of the cassette with a straighter chain line most of the time, but I find the slightly bigger chainrings smoother. - Saddle - not just the rails, but the shape and padding - a saddle that does not fit you well will feel rough even though it might not hurt you per se either. Also a slight variation of the saddle height. I can feel a difference of about 5mm in saddle height when I change it on the same bike, but I doubt I could pinpoint it if I jumped off of one bike and immediately started cycling on another. As in it could work, but it wouldn't be perfect, and I assume most of us haven't had a proper bike fit, so saddle height can be off by a few millimeters without even realizing it.
Your chainrings being bigger will be smoother partially simply down to the bigger size of the ring. Part of why bigger 30mm spindles on cranks works so well is that they are bigger. Same with OSPW. Track sprinters have a similar idea. Loads of people are under the impression that they are super strong; albeit they certainly are but you must remember one more thing: while the chainring those guys run is usually north of a 58, the rear cog is like, an 18 or 19. Bigger front and rear, but why? Because bigger is faster. Of course, thats only part of it. But hopefully that makes sense. This is why I would like to see Sram make bigger rings, not smaller ones.
Without any doubt, si’s videos have some sort of superior level of production. Soundtrack is always fun and exciting. And of course his charisma for explaining things is always great to see and hear. Good job.
1) If you are going to buy a bike on a review alone, it doesn't matter what it feels like. 2) If you buy a bike by test riding a number and choosing the one you prefer, then it doesn't matter what the review says.
Yes and no. While I personally recommend method 2) I then do look at reviews between my top two candidates. More importantly, I dig deep into the brands and components involved and what issues people have had. For example, Bike A may feel that little bit nicer than B, but in your geographical location bike B may have much better service and support if something goes wrong. And at the end of the day, I don't want a bike that should something go wrong or it have a weird seat post clamp defect that I could have found out about if I had researched it more prevent me from spending time on the bike. So, I think there's a balance here.
I'd prefer to go for 2) when I am going to buy a new (and expensive) bike, but not so many bike shops offer a test ride of every bikes they have. That's the problem :(
I bought the Aeroad CLX and subsequently bought the Aeroad CFR after it went on sale, and after riding the CFR, sent the CLX back to Canyon, so I experienced these differences first-hand! Great video!
Hi Billy, what drivetrain have you got on your CFR: sram or Shimano? I am interested on one hand how Shimano group feels on this bike but on the other hand I really want to know what is the feeling riding a bike equipped with SRAM Red and zipp 454 NSW hookless wheels
It's funny Si, that you made this video. This is something that I and my team mates have experienced and talked about for a long time. We do feel that the frame has the biggest influence on over bike feel, handling, etc. The individual components can add or take away from the overall feel and performance, but not to same extent.
I was once lucky enough to ride a Pinarello Gan S back to back with a Gan RS and Dogma F8 all of the same model year and with the same wheels. There was quite a difference between all three. The RS was fast stiffer and more responsive than the Gan S. The dogma f8 was only a little stiffer than the Gan RS but noticably more compliant at the same time. I learnt that day that the frame is the most important choice you can make as it is the foundation of everything else
Love this! Would be epic to see a follow up with the entry level Aeroad CF SL frame throw in the mix. Curios if all the components were the same, how different each bike would feel.
Although we have seen some presenters own bikes in some videos, I love to see a video with every presenter an show their main or best bike, how long they have had it and why they chose that particular bike whether it's performance, feel or best bike they think in the price range they were willing to spend and how much of that bike is still stock or what upgrades they made. That'd be a good video.
Really like this vid. Great insight, and actually testing what these brands claim on their frame design and manufacturer for carbon lay up etc. Shows how frame and wheels makes a bike feel unique
Si, having recently changed from a 2016 Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod to a 2023 Giant TCR Advanced I’m pretty convinced that improvements to stiffness are playing a big part in how more efficiently the Giant rides on the flat & the climbs. As it’s 500g heavier than the SuperSix & with a similar geometry, I think that stiffness is one of the subjective areas that you & the team could try to address objectively, if possible, across different bikes. For example, manufacturers make claims about increased stiffness but don’t appear to support the statement in the same way that aerodynamic improvements are “substantiated.”
This was interesting, especially because the difference between the SLX and the CFR, as Si describe it, is exactly how I’d describe the (rather big) difference between my SL Ultimate (2015) and SLX Aeroad (2017). They both run the same groupset, cockpit, saddle, tyres and tubes, so I have always thought that the difference would all be because of the difference in frame geometry and to some extent the rims (alu vs carbon) and seatpost (VCLS 2.0 on the Ultimate). But maybe some of it also is the difference between SL and SLX..
Interesting video, I had almost identical feedback from riding a standard Supersix versus a Hi-Mod Supersix. The cheaper frame definitely felt smoother to ride - while the more expensive hi mod frame gave more feedback and felt more responsive. Both great to ride, but there is definitely a subtle difference in feel between different carbon specs and layups.
@@gcntech the hi mod, because I’m quite a performance focused rider and it feels like it gives you a bit more in return for your effort, plus I’m a total weight weenie 😂 But if I was choosing one for steady endurance rides I would have opted for the lesser model
Now THIS is a comment I’m interested in. I’ve got the standard SuperSix, and I’ve always wondered how it compares to the Hi-Mod! I love taking mine out for long days in the saddle, and it’s the perfect mix of performance and comfort for me! Would love to ride a Hi-Mod someday to truly know the difference, but perhaps my wallet is safer if I don’t 😂.
It’s funny , I had the old supersix himod and caad12 at the same time . One aluminium and one hi mod carbon Both rim brake . Both felt fast and climbed like a demon . Same geometry , I kept the caad12 longer as I loved how lively it felt and made me smile They were the same weight too as I had some light parts on the Caad . The himod though definitely more compliant and muted I’ve an Aethos now
I recently went from p zero 28 tubeless to gp5000 28 running lightweight bontrager tubes. Similar PSIs. The difference night and day. Tubeless felt dead, smooth yes but the ride was lifeless and felt slow. On the other hand - gp5000 with tubes - wow - much more connected with road, feels quicker (actually weighs less) and the acceleration is better. Just a lot more fun. Nothing else I’ve done (aside from swapping deep carbon wheels for shallow lightweights in the past) has ever changed the ride this noticeably. And all for £80.
Wheels and tires are huge. And PSI specifically. I have Canyon's MVDP Aeroad. This bicycle is like nothing I've ever had. It's absurd how 'fast' it is--as in--it obviously requires less effort to propel it thru the wind. Insane. I can change how this bike feels, in a big way, with tire pressure. I have Conti GP5000 Tubeless in 25c. I weigh 140lb and ride on 70psi. One particular road near me really sucks. Sometimes I drop the pressure to 65 and instantly the bike is smooth as silk. No jarring around on the rough old pavement.
Really interesting video! I have a Trek Emonda SL5 and finally got some carbon wheels - what an absolute game changer! I've always ridden carbon wheels, so I knew the stock Bont Alu wheels were holding it back, but didnt realise how much. One other factor is the seat post - because offset plays a huge role in the position and compliance, I recommend looking into this as well
I think the bicycle is like any piece of equipment that is made is the sum of it’s parts. When you change any part be it simple things like bar tape or in depth changes like a new group set you will affect the overall feel of the bike, the hard part is knowing which parts will get it closer to your ideal bike!
Lmao!!! What are you guys doing, watching my bike purchases!??? I JUST received my Canyon CFR yesterday, while already owning an SLX. The SLX is Ultegra, with DT Swiss 1400 wheels, while the CFR is DA/DT 1100. I was going to test the two to see, besides weight, what are the differences. And it’s an easy swap with the wheel set because both are carbon railed seatposts. Your video was interesting because i also have a Factor Ostro Vam, and when people ask me which bike I think is better, smoothness and pure speed are the noticeable differences. The OV being a quicker bike, while the Canyon is very smooth. I thought it might be the weight and the wheels, but now I can see in a direct comparison. Great video, I look forward to riding both and seeing for myself. It will be fun for sure.
@@fhowland I love the SLX too. Just did centuries in back to back weekends on it, and I felt great-if not for the heat. I’m looking forward to comparing the two.
Si is asking a very legitimate question. I have ridden Giant TCRs since 2005. I have the TCR Comp (2005), TCR Comp (2011), TCR Aluxx (2014), TCR Advanced SL (2022). I've ridden all four with the same wheelsets. Three have the same basic drivetrain (SRAM Force 22). Overall, the frame material and layout plays a massive role on feel, but at the same time certain wheels feel better on certain bikes. It is an odd balancing act that many people don't think about too much, but can play a huge role in how we ride.
i have power saddles on both my bikes, same width (143). But one is the comp version (plastic/metal rails) and the other is the pro (carbon/ti rails) and it’s safe to say i do not feel a massive difference.
@@simonrichardson5259 A single high impact event might improve the data and usfulness of it. Something like riding over a plank or small step. My theory would be that the more compliant setup should see a lower max peak.
@@simonrichardson5259 I would mount it on the seatpost or the stem. I imagine you get two distinctive peaks with a different amplitude. Let´s say the meter is mounted on the seatpost and both wheels ride over a plank. then I would expect to see a lower first peak than the second one, because more frame material was able to dampen the impact. And vice versa for mounting it on the stem. The difference in those peaks might even be a more valuable information than the amplitude of them. For a quick proof of concept a phone on the handlebars should be sufficent. That is what I plan to try out.
Si I remember you have a previous gen Aeroad - I believe it’s red and black. I’d love to see a comparison review between the previous gen Aeroad (my bike) and this current gen Aeroad 🧐 Very interesting video by the way Si, very thought provoking.
I rode a Canyon Endurace CF, which is their entry level carbon layup, with a stock DT Swiss Endurance LN wheelset and it was very spongey. Bought a Zipp 404 Firecrest wheelset in hope for a stiffer and more pronounced ride, yet it still feels more or less the same so i'd argue that the biggest difference in ride quality and responsiveness comes from the actual frame itself. I'm pretty certain that the same bike with CF SLX carbon would feel completely different.
It’s make’s perfect sense that the frame is the biggest factor in ride feel followed by setup and tires, pressure ❤ I bought a old carbon lugged frame as a neo retro bike build and it’s was incredible how much smother it was compared to my more modern carbon bike.
Frame carbon quality and layout will make the most difference. I have two specialized bikes, one with fact 11 and the other one with fact 12. The fact 12 is lighter but stiffer. Transfer a lot of road vibration.
I think it's the bar plugs...LOL. Great vid. I had a feeling that the biggest differences are all in my head which was placed there by the manufacturer's marketing teams.
I can attest that changing wheels has a large effect. I had a Giant Al bike that came with mavic ksyrium wheels. It rode like a plywood board. Changing out to Bontrager wheels and the ride was so much more compliant.
Great content. I’m waiting for the next video that answers the nagging question, if you eat a donut on a bike, what slows you down more, the aerodynamic drag of the eating process (not tucked), or the weight gain. Or do the donut carbs make you faster or fatter? GCN does science!
While I don’t know for sure, but I would hope given the cost difference the seat post of the CFR is the…CFR carbon and layup, vs the CF SLX. That and canyon has a whole seat post issue with these bikes around 2020 that has since been rectified on newer models.
Hi Si, you could attach an accelerometer or a geophone to the bottom of the saddle while riding over the same track of road. In this way you might be able to quantify your gut and butt feeling.
I think it’s components. Carbon wheels ride differently depending on brand and depth, carbon bars are not created equal, and the seatpost can be way different from brand to brand. I switched between a Salsa Guide Carbon Seatpost to a Zipp and it made the ride way better.
I've always thought the opposite when it comes to carbon rails. Carbon rails tend to attach further forward and rearward on the saddle which lets the frame of the saddle flex more and more fully. Carbon railed saddles though are often less padded and have stiffer frames for a "racy feel" so cheaper steel saddles can still take the cake.
So i've just ridden my LAB71 SSE from Zipp 404 firecrests to the Bontrager RSL 51's on punchy hilly - flat roads where i live, and boy was i impressed at how the 404 firecrests just made my bike heaps faster, climbs better, holds speed MUCH better than the RSL 51's. (404 with 28c Michelin), (Bontrager RSL 51 with 25c conti STR). The 404 felt more planted and every pedal stroke was smooth, whereas the RSL's although being lighter, felt sluggish and unable to hold momentum very well. Love my 404 firecrests 🫶🏻
Does appear this is pre update Aeroad with the seatpost clamp on the seat tube instead of the new top tube variant. That said, the forks are suppose to be the same carbon layup between CFR and SLX, and the frames do have a weight difference of 65 grams on spec. I would expect the slightly heavier frame to dampen vibration more regardless of stiffness differences. The variation in carbon will also have an impact as changing carbon grades are not necessarily linear. High modulus carbon often has less tensile strength over the more commonly used intermediate modulus that has notably higher tensile strength. So the question is what targets did the engineer design for? Was the targets tensile, modulus, or more likely a small compromise to each side? The frames should ride different and depending on where the high modulus is used. Would the paint make a difference? To a small degree it might as blue would add more material over black and have some dampening affect, but likely minor overall. Then lets not forget frame variance. Since the layup schedule is done by hand into the mold and variance is to be expected, you can certainly be experiencing that or even adjustments in production could be playing its part. There are often slight changes to improve yields such as improved bladders and internal molding tools.
I did have The CANTON CFR then when sent back for the cockpit exchange, I received/tested was offered the SLX, and no, the feel was different and I was not comfortable. I received a full reimbursement (Happy with CANYON Customer service) and now waiting for the newest Ultima instead. Interesting you made this video about the feeing of it. Thank you for validating my feeling!!
These bikes are built to go fast and marketed for those seeking out speed / performance. Answering the important question how much faster the CFR is for the extra few extra thousand you pay would have been.... pretty cooI I suppose.
We all know components make a huge difference in ride quality, otherwise none of us would swap the aluminium stock wheel for deep carbon wheels, go tubeless with premium tries, swap the stock saddle for a 200+ EUR saddle and even the seatpost to one that allows for more flex (at least in some cases with canyon bikes) The frame tho, I would expect it to be different across their range. CFR is the race machine, they don't optimize for comfort too much, SL/SLX is designed for training/leisure as well so maybe they do design extra give on the frame. I have an endurnace frame solely for the additional plush feel when riding. Aeroad/Ultimate are amazing for racing but for my coffee/beer rides they are too much...even tho endurance got 4/5 stars because the reviewer felt disconnected on the rear (too soft apparently). Yet for me that is what I want, more comfort means more enjoyment and more enjoyment means I will ride that bike a lot more. Also, now I can get shimano groupset with sram gearing for better range :))
As a new owner of a blue CF SLX, I can say....smoooooth is the way to go! But DT Swiss wheels and so an altogether different feel? :) This is a great video and I enjoyed it as it tests something ordinary riders can't too easily test. BUT...if you daily ride one or the other, I imagine the differences in feel are so small it still depends on one thing....how much different does your wallet feel to you $3000USD lighter than if you bought the CF SLX? Not hating on those who can afford and enjoy a CFR and other top level bikes, but for me, I have to go with a modicum of value! :)
Difficult subject for a review/test. What to think of it? My opinion is that the difference between CFR or SLX makes a difference. Also the tires and rim. I guess those two make the most difference between the ride feel. The weight might ad also a little.
Great video and seems to support the unfortunately large gaps between the different level frames of the otherwise same bike. Is $6,500 for a frame set insane, all else equal? Sure, but if the level down is $4,500, you prob can’t upgrade components to get the same feel and other qualities of the top line model, while you can, should you want, change components and eg tire pressure on the high end frame to feel like lower end ones. Tldr; but the best frame you can afford. Put on top end tires and a well-fit saddle with a dialed-in pro fit, and you can always upgrade expensive components (eg wheels) later.
From last few videos, I was thinking if they have changed the Mic and audio system for better noise cancellation. Today I noticed, it is Escooter for camera person. 😅
If the geometry is identical between two bikes but the layups are different, or the modulus of the materials are different then the frames will behave differently under load. Fact. Just the same for steel, ever compared a full531bd frame with a gas pipe special?
I had a 2022 Canyon Aeroad CF SL, but returned it due to an incessantly squeaky seatpost. I believe Canyon changed the seatpost clamp across the lineup (SL/SLC/CFR) late in 2023 to address the squeak/wear issues. Of course the carbon layups are surely in play, but this video makes me wonder if some of the frame difference perceived is actually due to the seatpost clamp design on the older CFR vs the presumably revised design on the newer SLX?
I recently changed wheels on my Giant TCR and went from Giant SLR1 wheels to FFWD RYOT55. Bike is now waaaay stiffer and harsher to ride. Difference really is significant. So yes, wheels do change the feel. Both have the same tyres at same pressure.
It may be that you need to experiment with different pressure on the new wheels. As per the video if the wheel width is different the pressures should be different as well
@@gcntech Yes, both are pumped up to the pressure that silca pressure calculator suggested. Giant wheels are 19,3mm internal and FFWD are 21mm internal, so it changes things a bit, just like in this video where ZIPP wheels are wider. I did lower the pressure a bit now as it feels much nicer.
When I switched from Continental 5000 to Pirelli zero it was a noticable difference...Pirelli felt smoother and improved ride comfort, but seemed to have more drag, the bike fleet less responsive. Though Pirelli seemed to offer better grip quality than the C 5000.
Interesting video! That said, I wish you'd done a little more isolated testing--would've been interesting to see if just swapping saddles made a difference in the ride qualities of either frame. Compounding the difference together as you have doesn't give us a good picture of any perceptible difference the rail materials might imbue. What was the difference between the two bikes' system weights?
I love my aluminum track bike for the flats. After 100km it becomes an "endurance" bike! Nothing can change that. DNA of frame. My Cannondale Topstone 3 with 30mm Vittoria Rubino Pro tires and 30x34 granny gear rides a lot smoother and doesn't have that nervous fighter plane steering! DNA. Durability matters, so no carbon fiber except the forks!
would have liked to have seen a swap of wheels, saddle etc on both bikes, followed by a comparison. That would have been proper scientific, but maybe we'd need professor Oliver Bridgewood for that? 🤔 super interesting though, gave me lots to think about!
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Frame or components: what matters more to you? 🤔 Let us know in the comments below! 👇
frame for what the bike is and feels like (wheel choise accordingly). handlebars make a difference of course. but the components are more for funktionality. like 1x or 2x, gear choise, and so on. but colour is so important, l don't like how little options are out the quite often. the chinese actually do a great job with affordable fully custom paint jobs
I think the frame fit is most important. Components may add weight, or weigh less, but if you are optimizing your position on a really nice frame, you are going to love the feel, which will make you seem like you are faster even if you aren’t.
Frame fit is most important - you can always change components on your frame to your liking, but the frame is the frame - that's essentially the bike skeleton - it can't be adjusted.
The frame is more important because it's the foundation, you build up from there and switch out literally everything else. The frame determines 90% of the ride characteristics. This video show you're just tinkering around the edges in terms of ride feel and responsiveness
Frame geometry makes a big difference. Next are tyres and wheels. Lighter wheels feel different. Wider tyres feel different.
This has been one of the most interesting videos Si has ever done. Lovely to see Si's no holds barred opinions.
Thanks so much! What other videos would you like to see us do?
I agree.
@@gcntechaero Vs light weight gravel race bike. Say ostro or, kias or, 3t or, aspero vs crux or, stigmata. I know you have your sponsors, see what they can get you.
@gcntech it's almost time for cross season! Let's see some cross stuff!
Biggest takeaway from this video is that you can run a Force cassette with Shimano 12 speed
SRAM and Shimano have always been compatible in recent history, freehub and all?
U can also run an 11spd shimano crankset with any 12 spd shimano or ltwoo groupset.
No. The biggest is the electric camera scooter.
Yes, you definitely can. I'm even using SRAM red 22 cassette on my Campagnolo 11sp bike and with 12sp Dura ace chain, shifting is spot on 👌
@@PHHE1 News to me, heard that SRAM started out as a Shimano part maker but thought they would have deviated by now.
I haven't been able to ride two of the "same" bikes back to back, but there are several things I've noticed make an instant and noticeable difference when changed on the same individual bike in my experience:
- Swapping inner tubes. When I went from butyl to latex inner tubes, I really had to stop and check for a puncture a couple of times on my first ride, the bike felt just SO soft and smooth, despite everything else being the same (tyre pressure, tyres, wheels), apart from the inner tubes.
- Dry and/or dirty chain vs clean and well lubricated one. The clean one just feels so smooth that it really makes me feel more connected to my bike.
- Oddly enough, going from 50/34 to 52/36 chainrings. I don't know if it kind of gave me gear ratios in between the previous setup, or the fact that I am now more towards the middle of the cassette with a straighter chain line most of the time, but I find the slightly bigger chainrings smoother.
- Saddle - not just the rails, but the shape and padding - a saddle that does not fit you well will feel rough even though it might not hurt you per se either. Also a slight variation of the saddle height. I can feel a difference of about 5mm in saddle height when I change it on the same bike, but I doubt I could pinpoint it if I jumped off of one bike and immediately started cycling on another. As in it could work, but it wouldn't be perfect, and I assume most of us haven't had a proper bike fit, so saddle height can be off by a few millimeters without even realizing it.
Your chainrings being bigger will be smoother partially simply down to the bigger size of the ring. Part of why bigger 30mm spindles on cranks works so well is that they are bigger. Same with OSPW. Track sprinters have a similar idea. Loads of people are under the impression that they are super strong; albeit they certainly are but you must remember one more thing: while the chainring those guys run is usually north of a 58, the rear cog is like, an 18 or 19. Bigger front and rear, but why? Because bigger is faster. Of course, thats only part of it. But hopefully that makes sense. This is why I would like to see Sram make bigger rings, not smaller ones.
These are all great changes that will make a big impact to the overall feel 🙌 Have you now found your favourite setup?
I find when I swap the rider on my bike it not only goes faster but I also feel less fatigue.
Hahaha that'll do it!
Total weight also seems to go down 😂
😆
Any excuse to ride a couple of canyons. Good work Si! 🎉❤
Without any doubt, si’s videos have some sort of superior level of production. Soundtrack is always fun and exciting. And of course his charisma for explaining things is always great to see and hear. Good job.
And this distingued rich noble english accent
Simply super, love the way Si explain things, same detailing and focus as he has been over 10+ years… yay 🎉🎉
Thanks a lot!
1) If you are going to buy a bike on a review alone, it doesn't matter what it feels like. 2) If you buy a bike by test riding a number and choosing the one you prefer, then it doesn't matter what the review says.
Wise words 😉
Yes and no.
While I personally recommend method 2) I then do look at reviews between my top two candidates.
More importantly, I dig deep into the brands and components involved and what issues people have had. For example, Bike A may feel that little bit nicer than B, but in your geographical location bike B may have much better service and support if something goes wrong.
And at the end of the day, I don't want a bike that should something go wrong or it have a weird seat post clamp defect that I could have found out about if I had researched it more prevent me from spending time on the bike.
So, I think there's a balance here.
I'd prefer to go for 2) when I am going to buy a new (and expensive) bike, but not so many bike shops offer a test ride of every bikes they have. That's the problem :(
Good luck finding bikes in your size for test rides, that's a big part of the problem.
I bought the Aeroad CLX and subsequently bought the Aeroad CFR after it went on sale, and after riding the CFR, sent the CLX back to Canyon, so I experienced these differences first-hand! Great video!
Hi Billy, what drivetrain have you got on your CFR: sram or Shimano? I am interested on one hand how Shimano group feels on this bike but on the other hand I really want to know what is the feeling riding a bike equipped with SRAM Red and zipp 454 NSW hookless wheels
It's funny Si, that you made this video. This is something that I and my team mates have experienced and talked about for a long time. We do feel that the frame has the biggest influence on over bike feel, handling, etc. The individual components can add or take away from the overall feel and performance, but not to same extent.
Looks like I’d be up for the less expensive option then… more comfort = less fatigue = a faster ride…. Probably!
If comfort is what you want, the CF SLX Aeroad has lots of it. I have a 2022 and it's super smooth.
Sounds like the perfect bike for you 😉
Very interesting, Si! I have never ridden the CFR framed Aeroad but I have an SLX framed Aeroad... and, indeed, it is super smooth.
Smooth is the way to go! Stay moving for longer 🙌
I was once lucky enough to ride a Pinarello Gan S back to back with a Gan RS and Dogma F8 all of the same model year and with the same wheels.
There was quite a difference between all three. The RS was fast stiffer and more responsive than the Gan S. The dogma f8 was only a little stiffer than the Gan RS but noticably more compliant at the same time.
I learnt that day that the frame is the most important choice you can make as it is the foundation of everything else
Love the GCN videos,always full of amazing content, actionable takeaways, and most importantly....the English humour:)
Glad you like it!
Love this! Would be epic to see a follow up with the entry level Aeroad CF SL frame throw in the mix. Curios if all the components were the same, how different each bike would feel.
Although we have seen some presenters own bikes in some videos, I love to see a video with every presenter an show their main or best bike, how long they have had it and why they chose that particular bike whether it's performance, feel or best bike they think in the price range they were willing to spend and how much of that bike is still stock or what upgrades they made. That'd be a good video.
Really like this vid. Great insight, and actually testing what these brands claim on their frame design and manufacturer for carbon lay up etc. Shows how frame and wheels makes a bike feel unique
People outside of the UK probably think this video was filmed in early Spring based on Si's clothing choice
I have a Canyon CF SLX Aeroad , with Sram and DT Swiss rim. I'm glad I bought Canyon CF SLX.
Si, having recently changed from a 2016 Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod to a 2023 Giant TCR Advanced I’m pretty convinced that improvements to stiffness are playing a big part in how more efficiently the Giant rides on the flat & the climbs. As it’s 500g heavier than the SuperSix & with a similar geometry, I think that stiffness is one of the subjective areas that you & the team could try to address objectively, if possible, across different bikes. For example, manufacturers make claims about increased stiffness but don’t appear to support the statement in the same way that aerodynamic improvements are “substantiated.”
This was interesting, especially because the difference between the SLX and the CFR, as Si describe it, is exactly how I’d describe the (rather big) difference between my SL Ultimate (2015) and SLX Aeroad (2017). They both run the same groupset, cockpit, saddle, tyres and tubes, so I have always thought that the difference would all be because of the difference in frame geometry and to some extent the rims (alu vs carbon) and seatpost (VCLS 2.0 on the Ultimate). But maybe some of it also is the difference between SL and SLX..
Interesting video, I had almost identical feedback from riding a standard Supersix versus a Hi-Mod Supersix. The cheaper frame definitely felt smoother to ride - while the more expensive hi mod frame gave more feedback and felt more responsive. Both great to ride, but there is definitely a subtle difference in feel between different carbon specs and layups.
Which one did you prefer overall?
@@gcntech the hi mod, because I’m quite a performance focused rider and it feels like it gives you a bit more in return for your effort, plus I’m a total weight weenie 😂
But if I was choosing one for steady endurance rides I would have opted for the lesser model
Now THIS is a comment I’m interested in. I’ve got the standard SuperSix, and I’ve always wondered how it compares to the Hi-Mod! I love taking mine out for long days in the saddle, and it’s the perfect mix of performance and comfort for me! Would love to ride a Hi-Mod someday to truly know the difference, but perhaps my wallet is safer if I don’t 😂.
It’s funny , I had the old supersix himod and caad12 at the same time . One aluminium and one hi mod carbon Both rim brake . Both felt fast and climbed like a demon . Same geometry , I kept the caad12 longer as I loved how lively it felt and made me smile
They were the same weight too as I had some light parts on the Caad . The himod though definitely more compliant and muted
I’ve an Aethos now
Si's mock video review @0:52 was worth the price of admission on it's own
I recently went from p zero 28 tubeless to gp5000 28 running lightweight bontrager tubes. Similar PSIs. The difference night and day. Tubeless felt dead, smooth yes but the ride was lifeless and felt slow. On the other hand - gp5000 with tubes - wow - much more connected with road, feels quicker (actually weighs less) and the acceleration is better. Just a lot more fun. Nothing else I’ve done (aside from swapping deep carbon wheels for shallow lightweights in the past) has ever changed the ride this noticeably. And all for £80.
So true
Wheels and tires are huge. And PSI specifically. I have Canyon's MVDP Aeroad. This bicycle is like nothing I've ever had. It's absurd how 'fast' it is--as in--it obviously requires less effort to propel it thru the wind. Insane. I can change how this bike feels, in a big way, with tire pressure. I have Conti GP5000 Tubeless in 25c. I weigh 140lb and ride on 70psi. One particular road near me really sucks. Sometimes I drop the pressure to 65 and instantly the bike is smooth as silk. No jarring around on the rough old pavement.
Really interesting video! I have a Trek Emonda SL5 and finally got some carbon wheels - what an absolute game changer! I've always ridden carbon wheels, so I knew the stock Bont Alu wheels were holding it back, but didnt realise how much. One other factor is the seat post - because offset plays a huge role in the position and compliance, I recommend looking into this as well
Another great one Simon. Si has always been my favorite presenter. Hank’s cool too, I guess 😂.
I think the bicycle is like any piece of equipment that is made is the sum of it’s parts. When you change any part be it simple things like bar tape or in depth changes like a new group set you will affect the overall feel of the bike, the hard part is knowing which parts will get it closer to your ideal bike!
Impressed you found two sticks to hold them. #bodge
This vid got a bit of “Top Gear” vibe to it. Great stuff
One of the best videos made by GCN
Thanks so much! What other videos like this would you like to see us do?
It is not just contents. It is the delivery. Well done.
this is a good video. one that leverages gcn’s best. have lots of bikes and components we dont have. always a dacussuon. components vs frame.
WHO noticed the 105 pedals on the „latest dura ace“ bike :-)
was feeling a bit crap but this vid made me go out on my bike this evening. Set several PRs
This was a great deep dive. More please. No offense to the others, but Si just has that classic GCN feel.
Si is good, but I miss Matt "chat" Stevens - a previous GCN presenter that is now with Eurosport.
Gotta love the not-invisible-at-all bike stand
Great video! Always wanted to make this comparison as a big Aeroad fan 👍🏻
Lmao!!! What are you guys doing, watching my bike purchases!??? I JUST received my Canyon CFR yesterday, while already owning an SLX. The SLX is Ultegra, with DT Swiss 1400 wheels, while the CFR is DA/DT 1100. I was going to test the two to see, besides weight, what are the differences. And it’s an easy swap with the wheel set because both are carbon railed seatposts.
Your video was interesting because i also have a Factor Ostro Vam, and when people ask me which bike I think is better, smoothness and pure speed are the noticeable differences. The OV being a quicker bike, while the Canyon is very smooth.
I thought it might be the weight and the wheels, but now I can see in a direct comparison.
Great video, I look forward to riding both and seeing for myself. It will be fun for sure.
Interesting. So is there a big difference between how the CFR and the SLX ride? I love my SLX!
@@fhowland I love the SLX too. Just did centuries in back to back weekends on it, and I felt great-if not for the heat. I’m looking forward to comparing the two.
There you go, we've done your research for you! 😉
Hi, your comparison is between SLX and Ostro isn’t it? But how fő you feel CFR and Ostro? Is the VÁM even quicker than the CFR?
Si is asking a very legitimate question. I have ridden Giant TCRs since 2005. I have the TCR Comp (2005), TCR Comp (2011), TCR Aluxx (2014), TCR Advanced SL (2022). I've ridden all four with the same wheelsets. Three have the same basic drivetrain (SRAM Force 22). Overall, the frame material and layout plays a massive role on feel, but at the same time certain wheels feel better on certain bikes. It is an odd balancing act that many people don't think about too much, but can play a huge role in how we ride.
Hardwired into the frame 💯💯💯 AWESOME REVIEW, INSIGHT, VID 👍😎
So this episode teach us that you could be spending so much more money on a CFR frame, and end up with an uncomfortable ride.
That 'twig' to keep the bike up had me in stiches, well done.
‘Dave, he’s forgotten the shadow stands again! Go find some sticks…’
Dave has his work cut out working with Si
i have power saddles on both my bikes, same width (143). But one is the comp version (plastic/metal rails) and the other is the pro (carbon/ti rails) and it’s safe to say i do not feel a massive difference.
Please repeat some of these tests with a vibration meter to really see if something like road buzz is being reduced.
We have tried that before but the data was so noisy we couldn’t really do much with it I’m afraid.
@@simonrichardson5259 That's a shame. Guess we will need to wait for Boston Dynamic's Spot to learn how to ride for real blind data.
@@simonrichardson5259 A single high impact event might improve the data and usfulness of it. Something like riding over a plank or small step. My theory would be that the more compliant setup should see a lower max peak.
@@bohnito We’ll have a play with it. Where would you mount the meter?
@@simonrichardson5259 I would mount it on the seatpost or the stem. I imagine you get two distinctive peaks with a different amplitude. Let´s say the meter is mounted on the seatpost and both wheels ride over a plank. then I would expect to see a lower first peak than the second one, because more frame material was able to dampen the impact. And vice versa for mounting it on the stem. The difference in those peaks might even be a more valuable information than the amplitude of them. For a quick proof of concept a phone on the handlebars should be sufficent. That is what I plan to try out.
Great Content, as always ! Thanks GCN
Cheers! For some other interesting tech, why not check out this film on the 'Godfather of power' on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/gop
Si I remember you have a previous gen Aeroad - I believe it’s red and black. I’d love to see a comparison review between the previous gen Aeroad (my bike) and this current gen Aeroad 🧐
Very interesting video by the way Si, very thought provoking.
I rode a Canyon Endurace CF, which is their entry level carbon layup, with a stock DT Swiss Endurance LN wheelset and it was very spongey. Bought a Zipp 404 Firecrest wheelset in hope for a stiffer and more pronounced ride, yet it still feels more or less the same so i'd argue that the biggest difference in ride quality and responsiveness comes from the actual frame itself. I'm pretty certain that the same bike with CF SLX carbon would feel completely different.
It’s make’s perfect sense that the frame is the biggest factor in ride feel followed by setup and tires, pressure ❤ I bought a old carbon lugged frame as a neo retro bike build and it’s was incredible how much smother it was compared to my more modern carbon bike.
Huge upgrade to the audio and sustainability that you’re now using an electric scooter for the filming. 👏👏👏
Loving those eco bike stands!!! Broken branches… also 105 pedals on Dura-ace 😮
Holy carp Si, how many trees did you have to kill to keep the bikes standing up? No shadow stand handy?
He keeps forgetting them 😂
Yay! It's Si!
Frame carbon quality and layout will make the most difference. I have two specialized bikes, one with fact 11 and the other one with fact 12. The fact 12 is lighter but stiffer. Transfer a lot of road vibration.
the carbon isnt different
@@JwallzMTB well something it is because one frame is lighter than the other one. And cost more.
Also, the Shimano PowerMeter significantly over reads, so you’ll be more happy on that bike.
…unless you want the data to be actually usable.
Hahaha good comment
@@jeskli11 it was a joke.
I think it's the bar plugs...LOL. Great vid. I had a feeling that the biggest differences are all in my head which was placed there by the manufacturer's marketing teams.
Thanks. A good reminder on don't always go with the first review you read or listen to. Read multiple reviews.
I can attest that changing wheels has a large effect. I had a Giant Al bike that came with mavic ksyrium wheels. It rode like a plywood board. Changing out to Bontrager wheels and the ride was so much more compliant.
Great content. I’m waiting for the next video that answers the nagging question, if you eat a donut on a bike, what slows you down more, the aerodynamic drag of the eating process (not tucked), or the weight gain. Or do the donut carbs make you faster or fatter? GCN does science!
1 - I agree about the seat rails 2 - why didn’t you just swap seatposts 🤨
While I don’t know for sure, but I would hope given the cost difference the seat post of the CFR is the…CFR carbon and layup, vs the CF SLX. That and canyon has a whole seat post issue with these bikes around 2020 that has since been rectified on newer models.
Hi Si, you could attach an accelerometer or a geophone to the bottom of the saddle while riding over the same track of road. In this way you might be able to quantify your gut and butt feeling.
21:9 Aspect ratio? The ultrawide monitor gang approves.
Would the feel be different as the CFR has a slammed cockpit and the CF SLX has 1.5cm spacers?
I think it’s components. Carbon wheels ride differently depending on brand and depth, carbon bars are not created equal, and the seatpost can be way different from brand to brand. I switched between a Salsa Guide Carbon Seatpost to a Zipp and it made the ride way better.
I've always thought the opposite when it comes to carbon rails. Carbon rails tend to attach further forward and rearward on the saddle which lets the frame of the saddle flex more and more fully. Carbon railed saddles though are often less padded and have stiffer frames for a "racy feel" so cheaper steel saddles can still take the cake.
Si was the perfect person for this video hands down. Its a work of art.
They aren’t spec’ing the CF SLX with Zipp wheels 🧐 they’re DT Swiss arc1400
So i've just ridden my LAB71 SSE from Zipp 404 firecrests to the Bontrager RSL 51's on punchy hilly - flat roads where i live, and boy was i impressed at how the 404 firecrests just made my bike heaps faster, climbs better, holds speed MUCH better than the RSL 51's. (404 with 28c Michelin), (Bontrager RSL 51 with 25c conti STR). The 404 felt more planted and every pedal stroke was smooth, whereas the RSL's although being lighter, felt sluggish and unable to hold momentum very well. Love my 404 firecrests 🫶🏻
Sounds like you've done some pretty good testing! Good that you've been able to find wheels that work for you.
Michelin is hugely more supple then Conti.
Does appear this is pre update Aeroad with the seatpost clamp on the seat tube instead of the new top tube variant. That said, the forks are suppose to be the same carbon layup between CFR and SLX, and the frames do have a weight difference of 65 grams on spec.
I would expect the slightly heavier frame to dampen vibration more regardless of stiffness differences. The variation in carbon will also have an impact as changing carbon grades are not necessarily linear. High modulus carbon often has less tensile strength over the more commonly used intermediate modulus that has notably higher tensile strength. So the question is what targets did the engineer design for? Was the targets tensile, modulus, or more likely a small compromise to each side? The frames should ride different and depending on where the high modulus is used.
Would the paint make a difference? To a small degree it might as blue would add more material over black and have some dampening affect, but likely minor overall.
Then lets not forget frame variance. Since the layup schedule is done by hand into the mold and variance is to be expected, you can certainly be experiencing that or even adjustments in production could be playing its part. There are often slight changes to improve yields such as improved bladders and internal molding tools.
I did have The CANTON CFR then when sent back for the cockpit exchange, I received/tested was offered the SLX, and no, the feel was different and I was not comfortable. I received a full reimbursement (Happy with CANYON Customer service) and now waiting for the newest Ultima instead. Interesting you made this video about the feeing of it. Thank you for validating my feeling!!
If Si is going to be conducting these kinds of experiments, he really should be wearing the GCN lab coat.
These bikes are built to go fast and marketed for those seeking out speed / performance. Answering the important question how much faster the CFR is for the extra few extra thousand you pay would have been.... pretty cooI I suppose.
That's a funny looking shadow stand at 0:52!
16:07: intangible. Thanks, it’s been a long time since I heard a new word, or did I?
We all know components make a huge difference in ride quality, otherwise none of us would swap the aluminium stock wheel for deep carbon wheels, go tubeless with premium tries, swap the stock saddle for a 200+ EUR saddle and even the seatpost to one that allows for more flex (at least in some cases with canyon bikes)
The frame tho, I would expect it to be different across their range. CFR is the race machine, they don't optimize for comfort too much, SL/SLX is designed for training/leisure as well so maybe they do design extra give on the frame.
I have an endurnace frame solely for the additional plush feel when riding. Aeroad/Ultimate are amazing for racing but for my coffee/beer rides they are too much...even tho endurance got 4/5 stars because the reviewer felt disconnected on the rear (too soft apparently). Yet for me that is what I want, more comfort means more enjoyment and more enjoyment means I will ride that bike a lot more.
Also, now I can get shimano groupset with sram gearing for better range :))
Don’t dare make fun of David Arthur, he’s legend.
Love my Aeroad! Best bike ever
Nice! Have you uploaded a photo of it to the GCN app? Our community would love to see it!
As a new owner of a blue CF SLX, I can say....smoooooth is the way to go! But DT Swiss wheels and so an altogether different feel? :) This is a great video and I enjoyed it as it tests something ordinary riders can't too easily test. BUT...if you daily ride one or the other, I imagine the differences in feel are so small it still depends on one thing....how much different does your wallet feel to you $3000USD lighter than if you bought the CF SLX? Not hating on those who can afford and enjoy a CFR and other top level bikes, but for me, I have to go with a modicum of value! :)
Blue is SMOOTH! It is all about the color!
Difficult subject for a review/test. What to think of it? My opinion is that the difference between CFR or SLX makes a difference. Also the tires and rim. I guess those two make the most difference between the ride feel. The weight might ad also a little.
i would much more go for the better wheels than the better frameset tbh
Great video and seems to support the unfortunately large gaps between the different level frames of the otherwise same bike.
Is $6,500 for a frame set insane, all else equal? Sure, but if the level down is $4,500, you prob can’t upgrade components to get the same feel and other qualities of the top line model, while you can, should you want, change components and eg tire pressure on the high end frame to feel like lower end ones.
Tldr; but the best frame you can afford. Put on top end tires and a well-fit saddle with a dialed-in pro fit, and you can always upgrade expensive components (eg wheels) later.
How big was the tree holding up the bike at 0.51?? Forget the shadow stand Si?? 😂
Great test. Didn’t see Si change the seat rail clamps on the seat post when swapping from carbon to alloy tho. Bad idea if you don’t
Some seatpost clamp designs work with both.
@@The2808erik that one doesn’t - I own one 😀
Canyon seat post doesn’t, so I guess Si just swapped the clamps also but didn’t get filmed.
@@shaldon08 40$ for a seat clamp lol.
Can u ride the difference between SLX and CFR
Can share more about it ?
From last few videos, I was thinking if they have changed the Mic and audio system for better noise cancellation. Today I noticed, it is Escooter for camera person. 😅
The colour means everything to me. I don't care how it rides.
Aesthetics are equally important 😉
If the geometry is identical between two bikes but the layups are different, or the modulus of the materials are different then the frames will behave differently under load. Fact. Just the same for steel, ever compared a full531bd frame with a gas pipe special?
I had a 2022 Canyon Aeroad CF SL, but returned it due to an incessantly squeaky seatpost. I believe Canyon changed the seatpost clamp across the lineup (SL/SLC/CFR) late in 2023 to address the squeak/wear issues. Of course the carbon layups are surely in play, but this video makes me wonder if some of the frame difference perceived is actually due to the seatpost clamp design on the older CFR vs the presumably revised design on the newer SLX?
The real reason for the difference. The Pirelli on the Shimano equipped bike is white. The Pirelli on the SRAM equipped bike is yellow.
I recently changed wheels on my Giant TCR and went from Giant SLR1 wheels to FFWD RYOT55. Bike is now waaaay stiffer and harsher to ride. Difference really is significant. So yes, wheels do change the feel. Both have the same tyres at same pressure.
It may be that you need to experiment with different pressure on the new wheels. As per the video if the wheel width is different the pressures should be different as well
@huntos83 makes a good point. Did you change the pressure at all?
@@gcntech Yes, both are pumped up to the pressure that silca pressure calculator suggested. Giant wheels are 19,3mm internal and FFWD are 21mm internal, so it changes things a bit, just like in this video where ZIPP wheels are wider. I did lower the pressure a bit now as it feels much nicer.
When I switched from Continental 5000 to Pirelli zero it was a noticable difference...Pirelli felt smoother and improved ride comfort, but seemed to have more drag, the bike fleet less responsive. Though Pirelli seemed to offer better grip quality than the C 5000.
Try Michelin Power Cup, its as fast as GP 5000, but way more supple.
Interesting video!
That said, I wish you'd done a little more isolated testing--would've been interesting to see if just swapping saddles made a difference in the ride qualities of either frame. Compounding the difference together as you have doesn't give us a good picture of any perceptible difference the rail materials might imbue.
What was the difference between the two bikes' system weights?
I heard there is a shop named GCN that sells something called shadow stands 😅
The idea of the video was actually a sneaky plug to shop.globaclcyclingnetwork.com 😉
Did you change the seat post clamp when you changed to carbon fiber and back?
1:57 Lol Si name dropping to shame the GoPro mount
Anyone else notice the visual difference in tyre pressures of the two bikes at the beginning?
Top use of sticks. Can I get them in the GCN shop soon?
I love my aluminum track bike for the flats. After 100km it becomes an "endurance" bike! Nothing can change that. DNA of frame. My Cannondale Topstone 3 with 30mm Vittoria Rubino Pro tires and 30x34 granny gear rides a lot smoother and doesn't have that nervous fighter plane steering! DNA. Durability matters, so no carbon fiber except the forks!
would have liked to have seen a swap of wheels, saddle etc on both bikes, followed by a comparison. That would have been proper scientific, but maybe we'd need professor Oliver Bridgewood for that? 🤔 super interesting though, gave me lots to think about!