Here's a hot take from a professional bike mechanic of over 13 years and counting. Over the following years mechanical shifting will go away and then come back like Swiss watches as a premium item. Electronic shifting will become like cheap digital watches and be cheap because the same switches, batteries and motors can be used in all trim levels of shifting and only the external part materials and their weight will determine the level of quality of shifting parts. The only reason why the electronic stuff costs so much right now is that it is marketed as premium when in reality the biggest cost cutting will be in the electronic shifting. Electronics will be shared in all price points leading to overall lower cost to manufacture as opposed to having to produce loads of tiny parts for shift lever mechanisms to different tolerances out of different materials. So my prediction is that in the future the premium level bikes will have really nicely made mechanical stuff most likely marketed as authentic feel or some shit like that and electronics will be the bog standard in every price level. It will take time to get there but it sure looks like the future right now when you consider the speed that people are willing to buy the electronic junk in shifting and e-bikes etc. The trend seems to be that adding a battery and electronic function is somehow sought after at the moment and mainstream consumers are lapping it up no questions asked. Of course there will always be some Far-East factory making parts for whatever is the most common old mechanical item on the market at the most lowest price possible out of garbage materials. But when it comes to new western world quality level consumer bikes the trend will be as I described above. The biggest joke this far that I have seen is this in the same bike: (Number is the amount of batteries) E-bike battery (1) Sram Flight attendant shock + fork + crank spindle sensor (3) Sram AXS Shifting 1-by (2) Sram AXS dropper post (2) Add into that the common stuff like: Bike computer (1) Battery operated front + rear light (2) Complete bike ready to ride with accessories has 11 batteries to keep track of by charging or swapping as needed. Must be fun preparing for a ride with that bike. I do not like where the bike industry is heading and will keep riding my mechanical drivetrains as long as I can, but it will get increasingly more difficult as time passes and planned incompatibility and dwindling spare parts supply creep forward.
This a million times over. You'd have to really reduce the functionality of an "analog" non-electronic bike to get me to say that on balance the decked out electronic bike wins. I love being able to get on my bike whenever I want and go wherever my muscles can take me, no gas, no charging, no batteries that wear out even when sitting idle or die in cold temperatures
Though I agree with you in what will happen. I disagree that electronic is bad. I've been using di2 for almost 10 years now and it is genuinely the better choice for me. It stays in tune and doesn't require any cable adjustment or replacement. There's no need to double tap the FD at least on Shimano to better align it depending on where the RD is. Sure...it's bloody expensive if you knock or wreck a piece of di2 gear..but if we remove price...di2 offers a better experience. Using something just because we have used it is a stupid argument. Equally just as suggesting all progress is great. But how is electronic bad?
I was a mechanic and service manager in Southern California bike shops for fifteen years, starting when Super Record was still available and when 7400 Dura-Ace was competing with Superbe Pro, and getting out of the business when electronics/hydraulics/planned obsolescence/limited options/etc etc (i.e. all the trappings of a modern consumer society) became the new normal. For me, a bicycle should reflect minimalism, simplicity, repairability, versatility, elegance, in other words everything that bikes these days are not. I am an unabashed retrogrouch, and all the happier for it! I'm so glad that my bikes are essentially 100% reliable and need no batteries for them to function. My touring bike, a custom 531ST with an eclectic mix of simple proven parts, has taken me across India and Nepal with no, and I mean absolutely zero, failures, not even any flat tyres; if I'm in the middle of New Mexico or crossing the Mojave Desert hundreds of miles from the nearest decent bike shop I cannot risk any breakdown at all. Would I have achieved this level of absolute reliability with electronica? Obviously not. Yes, traditional bikes like my six beauties are laughably anachronistic these days, and they're all the better for it. I'm so glad I got out of the bike world's ever-increasing cynicism and disdain for their customers when I did. I look at the current marketing-led lunacy from afar with pity and sorrow, and I try to relate to all those naive suckers who have been mindlessly duped into it, but to no avail.
This has quickly become one of my favorite channels. Well reasoned opinions, rational and balanced (things like value for money taken into account, serviceability and fit for purpose depending on type or style of riding). Majority of the 'objective opinions' expressed by YT channels are actually largely unsubstantiated preferences (often by dyed in wool roadies or touring cyclists prone who blindly favor tradition over progression) or equally groanworthy , totally biased 'objective sponsored content'. Having preferences is fine, but shoving it down our throats as an absolute truth is grating. Kudos to you and others of your ilk (Peak Torque, Hambini etc).
@@joelv4495 Path Less Pedaled is the antithesis of Mapdec. Funnily enough the channel that first comes to mind NOT having objective opinions is Path Less Pedalled. Most of his takes are so inconsistent with previous ones he’s unleashed. He's just as dismissive about "professional" cycling culture as he claims "professional" cycling culture to be. Everything is for clicks and views and likes and traffic, including being an exaggerating, excessively opinionated retro grouch. The guy literally spends hours talking about old tech/being less wasteful/bringing cycling 'for the people', then proceeds to say everyone NEEDS a $500 boutique square taper crank, $300 artisan cable disc brake calipers and a "humble" steel frame that costs more than many mid-range carbon framesets.
@@lenolenoleno ya, there is certainly a retro grouch element, but you've gotta admit it's a pretty shit strategy to toss a pair of $500+ hydro brifters just because the latest groups added a gear. Also, why the heck do you need to change shifters on electronic groups to add a speed? Seems like an odd limitation, since they accept firmware updates and there's no real reason except it puts more money in their pocket. His ideas aren't about being cheap, they are about 🖕vendor lock-in.
Still very happy with my Ultegra 11 spd mechanical set. Every shift is bang on. Why bin the 105 mechanical option, Shimano? Past Ultegra would have made a superb new 105 and not force customers to a much more expensive purchase of an electronic groupset no one needs.
>no one needs Can say quite a few things about it, but that isn't one of them. Unless ignore people who have issues with their fingers/wrists etc... or simply hate with a passion how say front shifting into big ring feels. (as in stops you from enjoying it etc)
Electronic groupsets is great for forced obsolescence. As you can't buy new 1st gen. Di2 parts anymore. Mechanical groupsets can last an entire lifetime of a bike. Which means there is no end of life support for electronic parts by the manufacturer after 5-10 years.
@@YuudachiPois yeah I see where you are coming from and I totally do understand. Still, to force this upon people looking for a mid tier groupset on somewhat of a budget just isn't right to me. They should have left a choice between a 105 electronic and mechanical being the trickled down Ultegra, my opinion. It will serve the Sensahs and whatever Chinese brands out there to take a larger share of the market, well that's just the way it works.
100% agree on the gearing issues on bikes, and often wondered why they don't offer the 46/30 (x 12/13-36?) in 105- lets face it most bikes are massively over geared and they don't seem to consider that some of us live in places like the Scottish Highlands where descending at 70km/h is FAR less important than getting up a long steep hill, many of us are not that young, or are not the "perfect weight"... I've an old Carrera TDF that has only the original frame left on it now( Triggers Brush springs to mind...) which came with 2x7 Tourney and a lowest of 34/28 on a 12.5kg bike, that's now got (ebay) Tiagra 4600 on it so I could run a M-592 MTB mech on it and it has a low of 34/36 but I'm planning an 11-40 cassette as it will handle it easily.... and when the chainrings go eventually I'll probably put on FSA Tempo 46/30...It's my winter bike now, My better bike for summer has Sora R3000 ironically with the same derailleur, and I've split 2 and built a USABLE cassette 14-36...... (but got a 105 groupset from CRC for £299 for "future proofing", keep it in storage for now lol)
Why do you need 105 in 46-30T when you can get that in GRX? You can mix and match GRX and 105/Ultegra. I make 12-36T 10-speed cassettes by taking a 11-36T and changing the 11T for a 12T (since the 2nd smallest is a 13T). Brilliant "gravel"/CX cassette with a 48-31T or 46-33T crank.
I absolutely agree. I’m trying to put compact on a lightly used Evo Hi mod that I just picked up for second hand recently. It’s taken hours to try and find a compact and have had to go down to ultegra for the front rings and rear cassette and need to swap out the RD to accommodate the 32T cassette I want. Even then on some climbs I can’t maintain the seated cadence I prefer. I get I can use GRX but that’s not the point. Shimano should be prioritising the consumer and the majority of us don’t needs ‘sub compact’ in a road gruppo
@@onthemoveot Ok, bit confused at your last sentence? Are you pro or anti "road spec" 46/30?!! .... the vast majority of us don't need 36/52 or 39/53 and that's always catered for, so why not offer 46/30 sub-compact in road spec(not gravel) for those of us who care for our knees lol....bet they'd be surprised at how many they shifted and for a lot of folk the 11-13 cogs might finally get some use....Doesn't affect the frame manufacturers and chainstay position, maybe make that braze on FD a bit longer and lower down? Doesn't mean bigger and heavier cassettes to get lower gears when you've shrunk the chainset significantly. It's funny but when Black Friday is on and groupsets are on offer it's always the silly high geared cranksets that are left over on offer with 175mm cranks....mere mortals don't want them clearly....
After watching this very insightful view into the new electronic groupsets and disc brakes im so pleased i bought a couple of R7000 105 rim brake groupsets when they were £300 on Wiggle...thats me sorted until Tiagra comes out as 11 speed for replacement parts. No messing with batteries or recoding/downloading anything, just a new cable and good to go 👍🏻 Love the channel btw, nice to see someone down to earth talking about the bike industry...keep it up 🎉
I’ve mentioned this many times before here and elsewhere. A class action right to repair lawsuit needs to be brought against Shimano and the others, due to the extreme cost of these electronic parts. Mandate that they sell every part of a derailleur etc as well as tools to do the job. Also Shimano should be mandated to provide a regional repair center where these parts can be sent for repair, or exchanged for a refurbed model when damaged beyond repair.
I would generally agree to you, but.....takes too long or/and to do this process takes too long. It is very obvious that Shimano and SRam are currently agreeing on their prices and are working against the interest of their customers. The solution might be some chinese company that attacks this foolish overpriced market really hard. If I would be a chinese/indian/arab billionaire with too much money....i would buy Campa and would attack Shimano/SRam as hard as possible, they really deserved it. I have some glam italian bikes in my garage (for sure not a bargain), and even I am completely pxxxed by the actual price politics.
My main issue is they stopped making 11s mechanical rim brake one evolution cycle to early. They should also announce and commit to making 11s 105 and Ultegra mechanical rim brake parts for a guaranteed period minimum of 7-10 years.
I am not a 'consumer' cyclist and I've been sourcing parts to build two bikes shortly, one complete refurbish and upgrade build for Crit racing/fast sportive and one new build for long distance/Audax, one built with Dura Ace 9100 and the other with Ultegra R8000, for me a road bike has to fulfil two main requirements: - Fully analogic - Rim brake The only batteries I have are the 'sensors': computer, and heart rate and cadence only for training/racing and I don't use power meter, if from now on I am really pushed to the point I have no option but to buy electronic shifting I would start considering going all in Chinese and consider the likes of LTWOO or Sensah. I just can't stand the lack of choice we are going towards to. I cannot see myself dropping my two main requirements for a road bike any time soon... ever really.
I agree with you about gear ratios. I'm using 46/30 and 14/40 with 105 R7000 (front mech is Ultegra). I live in Taipei (lots of mountains) and constantly hit 10%+, 15%+ and more often than not 20%+. The original 50/34 and 11/34 wasn't nearly as low as I needed to explore the many small roads around here. Judging by the number of cyclists I met in the main roads (usually with more reasonable gradients) and the number of cyclists I met in the secondary and tertiary roads (usually with crazy gradients), more people would benefit from lower gears to be able to explore the quieter roads. My knees and my heart loved the change. My chain too, because I can have a better chainline for more time. I don't care at all about pedalling at 60km/h. Not wanting to win any race here.
Looking after my knees and having the choice to ride in a lower zone or high cadence when climbing is essential to me. Use 50-39-26T chainsets on most my bikes.
@@draugmithrin I like the simplicity of 2x more than 3x, although it needs a wider cassette for similar range. Also, in my case it would required a shifter change. But 3x is definitely an option. I'm convinced that the current popularity of road bikes is due to the more human friendly gear ratios. Give the option to make them even more friendly and it will only introduce more people to the sport.
@@cc-000 Yes, the industry has been moving in the right direction, but it's not quite there yet. I don't know what is your region. It could be flat Florida or hilly Switzerland. But you said it: you're fit. Still you were suffering before and now you're fine. Newcomers still suffer with 1:1 ratios in harder climbs. Not to mention that some gravel bikes also have 1:1 or slightly lower as the lowest gear.
Absolutely agree. I’m putting together a “gravel race” bike and still don’t feel the out of box gearing on GRX is low enough. I chose the 810 48-31 chainring and I’m hoping to pair it with an 11-40 cassette on the GRX rear mech, which isn’t officially supported.
I think you've hit it all spot-on. Too many of current developments are moving towards less compatibility and more future obsolesence. Even simple things like 3rd party cranks & chainrings, let alone the difficulties of all the electronics. Once upon a time, Shimano were the epitome of cross-compatibility between groupsets and raod/MTB kit. And what ordinary cyclist needs an 11t or 10t small cog? I've run 50 or 48 x 12 on road bikes for years, and theat hasn't slowed me down on even big alpine descents (and I've only ever come across 1 amateur rider faster than me downhill). Personally, I'm a dedicated Campag fan for road bikes. I've found it bullet-proof reliable, easy to set up and needs no adjustment after intial bedding in. Never got on with the ergonomics & haptics of Shimano. I have just fitted Rival ETAP/Easgle mullet to my new gravel bike, though. I'm blown away with how easy to set up that is and like you say, has the easy interface through the app (which isn't even needed for basic set-up). With the wireless, I can set up the bike easily for both drop & flat bars making the bike even more versatile. The Rival shifters also have a great shape for using on flared bars. If only they'd ditch that stupid flat-top chain and the different cassette standards (XD/XDR) to make the system even more cross-compatibile.
Excellent Q’s and comments. Showing once again a thoughtful, knowledgeable and wide ranging community with a diverse range of experience and opinions. Great stuff. Definitely share concerns about accessibility for younger riders, and older riders, being able to maintain accessibility to our sport regardless of whether on slicks or knoblies.
I'm with you on making 48/34 and 46/32 more common available chainrings for getting more people into cycling. Especially in hilly areas where those climbs offer beautiful views but can be hard to reach and discouraging on the commonly larger chain rings.
My first bike had 46/30 front and 11-32 rear. Best ratio for beginners, climbs well and is fast enough for a newbie. Now I'm riding 12 speed and looking to get a 48/33 chainrings. The smaller steps allow for smaller chainrings vs big 52s amd 50s.
My "CX" stock bike is fitted with 46-36, 34-11, 11sp, so different than my old road bike, 53-40 25-11 7sp! Both Shimano, I hope the new one lasts as long as the previous one, which was the cheapset groupset at this time, RSX...
Yeah. Given the amount of gear overlap, I don't see any real reason to go above 10sp on road unless you are daily riding up the Andes. I also have to work on my own bikes so electronic is simply a non-starter for me. I can reasonably confidently tear down a mech shifter.
I think you should try an electronic group set before you solidify your preference. I thought electronic shifting was marketing hype when it first came out. Now that I own a bike with electronic shifting, I won't go back to mechanical.
I love my Campy Chorus 12 speed. No electric issues, all the range, looks fantastic, sounds great, and is more reliable than the Shimano on my MTB. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm now a Campy fanboy.
I agree. Still on 9-speed Record from 98 on one of my bikes. Bike gear has gone downhill since then. If it wasn't for the stupid HT BB, 7700 DA was peak Shimano. Until your rear mech fails and then you (and I) are stuck with what's available on the second-hand/NOS market.
Why not have them all? I have bikes with Simplex and Huret 3 and 4 speed, Cyclo Benelux 3 speed. Sturmey Archer 3 speed. Campag 5,6 and 9 speed. Shimano 7,9’12. I love them all! Some go back to my schooldays in the 1950’s. Never diss anything! I LOVE my 12 speed Di2 Ultegra on my Look 765. Also my Gitane triple 7 speed Shimano GSX. They all still work. Here in France, things are cheaper. I look after my bikes. I have NEVER in 70 odd years of cycling broke a rear mech ffs! How the hell do you do that? I never regretted buying an Ultegra! What is up with you dude!?
I like these opinion vids, keep them up. It's interesting to hear the frustration from the mechanics point of view. I have similar rants. Especially about proprietary connectors 😂 I totally agree with your comments about mechanical 105 and Tiagra. I have both (with hydraulic discs) on my bikes and both have been faultless for years. I've never run out of gears (nor for that matter on my mountain bikes over the years)... (Except on my 3 speed Brompton, but that's a whole other problem 😂). However, I do covet lovely, shiny, expensive stuff tho, so maybe when I win the lottery I'll be able to get something with electronic Dura-Ace on it. I can dream... I would certainly like to try it out, see what the real difference is. Good luck in your hunt for diagnostic boxes and 1632 batteries 😂👍
Recently bought a new roadie and wanted to try electronic shifting. Previous roadie has 11sp 105 rim brake and I’ve been very happy with it. Ended up going with Ultegra Di2 and love it. I wanted the semi-wireless (or full wireless if I had chosen SRAM). I didn’t necessarily think I needed 12sp but I do actually like the extra gear. 50/34 with 11-34 is ideal for me and where I ride, same as what have on my 105 roadie but with the extra gear. Love having the climbing satellite switches.
Like this video format 👍 Repair prices quickly get expensive with these new Shimano groupsets. A customer of mine recently broke a 12sp ultegra rear mech and it cost just shy of £400 to get the bike back on the road. That did include a new hanger and some work on the rear wheel (spokes, truing, retentioning) but the significant cost was in the rear mech. Agree fully on the charge cable, should be USB C and the diagnostic box, stupid and impossible to purchase. Just build it into the PC or phone software.
I have 3 bikes with sram red e-tap.i have 1 with shimano dura ace di2...ultimately the di2 is just about the best but for ease on use and convenience sram e-tap is the best,its easy to swop components and also parts from bike to bike.The sram gear ratios are also very good,and once set up correctly its trouble free.Shimano does need tweaking occasionally. Your channel is getting better and better.
Funny you mention “once set up properly”. My SRAM etap front derailleur kept dropping my chain not matter how much I tweaked it. Switched it to a new bike frame after a few months, mounted the same group, had a great mechanic put some final touches on it it ever since the entire group shifts INCREDIBLE. I feel like shimano doesn’t need perfection to be reliable but once you get a sram dialled in its wonderful and actually shifting is more fun than on my R8000 ULTEGRA which is on my other bike. SRAM force etap is slowly becoming quit cheap as well this year.
I completely agree, the Sram Rival AXS is a top choice, considering the price and what upgrade options it offers. Most people still don't know that Sram AXS offers many more gear ratio options than Shimano, so you can adjust the gear ratio to your needs, abilities and terrain. I've been a Shimano guy for years, but with the latest Shimano 105 Di2 I'm completely disappointed. Only two cassette options 11-34 and 11-36 and rear derailleur with min. low sprocket 34T. That means you can't even use an 11-30 cassette from Ultegra 8100 or Dura Ace Di2 9200. Totally limited selection. Big minus for Shimano. Sram AXS (Rival/Rival Wide/Force/Force Wide/Red) is a real contender.
Love the analogy of Windows, Mac and Linux. This is my opinion on Shimano v SRAM. I've never owned SRAM, but when I look at pure spec's, they are heavier and more expensive. Two things that are important to me. I also use the hood top buttons to switch screens on my Garmin, which I believe SRAM doesn't have. Charging isn't an issue to me as I am used to plugging a proprietary cable into my bar end to charge it, and another set of cables for the Giant PowerPro. The main issue is that as the batteries last ages, you need to remember to charge them. SRAM has had the 12 speed for a while now, and personally, I am looking forward to my next bike with an 11-34T cassette. My previous bikes were 11-25 10-speed (then upgraded to 11-28), 11-30 11-speed, and next will be 11-34 12 speed. Essentially the gearing will stay the same, except I get an extra cog with 34 to deal with all those hills that just seem to get steeper as I get older. The last 10 years has been Ultegra Di2, and with the latest upgrades, I understand that the only significant difference between Ultegra and Dura-Ace are the materials used and subsequent weight. I am not planning on any racing, so Ultegra it is. I'm not a mechanic, but in 10 years I have had zero problems with my Di2 group sets. I am sure that SRAM is fine, but in my case, there aren't any value propositions that would make me want to switch from Windows to Mac 😉
I would like to see more crankset options, in terms of crank length and chain ring size choices, spec'd on new bikes. If you look at Rotor's modular design, the crank arms are customizable in 5mm increments (great for a proper bike fit) and their one-piece double chain rings are a work of art. I run small cranks and therefore have dropped down to a 46/30 chain rings but Rotor make picking your choices a breeze.
@@Mapdec I don’t believe we will see that-the bike shops love selling cranks,bars,stems,cassettes etc for customizing an “off the shelves” bike. It’s all about 💵💶💰.The most ridiculous shop in our town is the Spezialized shop: About 500 square meters large with only 6 or 7 hugely overpriced bikes......
I've ridden all the major electronic groups, and settled on Shimano more for ergonomics and brake feel than shifting function. All of the major groups seem to move the chain well enough. The GRX Di2 levers are simply the most solid-feeling lever made, which makes them perfect for rough surfaces and cyclocross. I moved to the new 12-speed Ultegra on my road bike, and love the inward cant they give to my wrists. As for your comment on wiring up the levers on the new 12-speed Shimano - no. Wireless is the way to go. As a mechanic, I absolutely loathe the drive toward more integration(hiding cables), but given that is the direction the industry seems to be going, having fewer cables to force through a headset is a good thing. Sure, the battery may be a little harder to track down than a 2032, but I'll take that over feeding one more wire into a Tarmac.(FWIW, none of my bikes hides a cable in stem, headset, or handlebar)
As a home mechanic and user I went to wired, 1 charger for all and 50% more range. it's no brainer as a user. I install once, but charge/change cells more often. I hate AXS because of that (I have both) wireless is not the way to go at least for 2x.
Just gonna buy spares of 11 speed Shimano mech. Mix an match, looks good. Rented a bike with Di2, not really into it and not bothered about 12 speed either.
thanks for you overview here I was thinking about the options for the Roubaix SL8 and I had decided on the 105 Sport as opposed to the 105 Di2 your overview confirmed I'm doing the right thing :)
I’m fortunate to own both the R8000 mechanical and the new Di2 12 speed. While I like the Di2 there are many items I don’t care for, many you listed. When people ask what is the best way to go, I recommend 105 mechanical. All you need and nothing you don’t. Buy better wheels and tires instead.
I got mechanical 105 11 speed on my giant defy. Partly that was down to repair and replacement costs. I could afford the Ultegra Di2 up front cost but didn’t want to get an expensive repair cost down the line. I’m thinking of setting up a TT bike again but for that I’d probably go SRAM 1x12
I'll keep on using my Mechanical 6800/9000 mix Rim brake groupset, which works PERFECTLY. Ah yes it works perfectly because I too am a SHIMANO SERVICE CENTER technician/mechanic. A bike is a bike, not a spaceship! Yep the SMPCE02 ETUBE interface will be available in 105 days according to my B2B page.
@@Mapdec I don't think an Interface from shimano by that name exists! Comunication can be done via SMPCEO1(Di2 10spd and first 11spd's Etube V.3) SMPCEO2 (Di2 11spd and 12spd's Etube V.4 & V.5 are supported).
My workplace has the SM-PCE02, just lacking the new wire for fourth-gen Di2. And woo, glad to hear this mechanical-biased opinion from a Shimano Service Center mechanic!
I’m another 11 speed mechanical fan. No need for anything else in the amateur scene. Campy is my choice. All my rim brake aluminium wheels have a choice of campy or shimano freehubs. The best bit is the wide choice of gearing I can use, from 11-36 SRAM to 11-23 campy and everything inbetween….BBB or Miche, they all work with MKS chains. I am also my own mechanic for the past 39 years.
Many valid points! I own the new Shimano DI2 Ultegra. I installed it myself this past August. It is a big improvement over the DI2 11 speed for the following reasons; much easier to install, no need to purchase a separate bluetooth "dongle" to communicate with the system via the E-Tube app, faster shifting on the front mech, much improved E-Tube app which aids in quick set up of both mechs and the wireless shifters work flawlessly. Here is the States we don't have a problem getting the 1632 batteries and I haven't needed to replace mine yet after 5 months of riding the bike a lot! Dislikes; cost, some chain noise on the cassette that I'v been unable to micro adjust away and I HATE the synchro shift which I promptly shut off. Other than that I love it and find it better overall than the previous generation. BTW I've ridden well over 100K miles in my career and never broken a rear mech. As usual I always enjoy your unfiltered opinions, its valuable work you're doing!!
I’m so happy to own an Émonda with mechanical Durace which weighs 6.4 kg. It’s 6 year old, I paid €3500 for it (brand new) and don’t see any interesting alternative right now. Outrageous prices, heavy and too much electronics.
Been riding 105 Di2 thru winter 50/34-11/34 on a Diverge with 32c tyres. Have to say it has been excellent so far. Brakes can get a bit noisy if not cleaned after 2-3 rides, only takes a blast of brake cleaner and a wipe. Front shifting is the real winner for me which is so much better than all my mechanical groups and I have them all. Ultimately it’s all about choice and how lucky we all are to have so much of it. Riding R7000 one day, R8000 another and R9100 on a steel framed custom build Sunday ride, no better time to be alive.
12sp with 11-34 makes sense to me. I get similar range like 11-30 yet I don't need to compromise in terms of uphill. However, I do think shimano did not quite get 12sp right. The cassette is becoming too complicated to achieve finer and more gears. This, at least, causes some unexpected issues on my 105 di2, e.g., unexpected noise, etc.
This was an excellent presentation and very comprehensive. I think that if you did the same for the Campagnolo current groupset lineup, and then maybe SRAM that would be unreal. A lot of times consumers have decided upon or are committed to one particular manufacturer, but are still considering where within the lineup to part with their hard earned cash. For Road I’m exclusively Campagnolo and have been for over 20 years, but there is a real lack of any info out there doing in depth direct comparison of Centaur v. Chorus v. Record v. Super Record other than price and I think if you did that you would be plugging a significant information gap.
Am thinking of switching to Campag for the first time ever next time around. There's talk of the 'special' tools needed, does this just boil down to the special chain tool with pin preener and then secondly the crank BB bearing puller?... I could live with that... or is there more quirkiness to invest in?
@@nellyx1x493 Hi - tbh although the chain peening is the official Campagnolo recommendation, I’ve never bothered with it. I just use a regular chain splitter and then a YBN quick link to join the chain and never had any problems. I prefer to do it this way as I use a waxed drivetrain and I remove my chain to clean and renew the wax in a crock pot every 300km so using a quick link is best solution. As regards special bb tools, more major / less frequent work on bike like this I leave to my local bike shop mechanic anyways. Pulling / changing / checking the BB is a once every 18 months job and I leave that to the professionals like the bloke in this video. So in short, no special tools are required subject to the above and depending on how much you want to do yourself.
@@nellyx1x493 The cassette tool is different, but they're cheap. Lezyne make a cheaper peening chain tool. Not sure if the hydraulic brake installation/bleed kits may need anything different too - if you're working with discs?
Nicely done mate! I’m a shop owner mechanic in the US with my own channel. I have railed on Shimano 105 Di2. One thing you said was interesting I absolutely hate synchro shifting as an experienced cyclist. I would also be annoyed if based on cadence the bike would shift on me. But I also understand that new cyclists have no clue how to shift properly and are usually crossed up so for the masses that might have worked. Cheers
@@Mapdec thanks for the reply. I haven’t had the opportunity to ride a Shimano e-bike. In other news, since watching your video I took another look at SRAM Rival AXS. I’m a steel rim brake guy and although I am a Shimano fan boy I would like to future proof a couple of my bikes. For example my Ritchey Road Logic it is currently R9100 bow to stern. I won’t be able to put Di2 on it but AXS would work. I gave you sub because you were frank and didn’t spew marketing BS, something I loathe and keep off my channel. My Ritchey Road Logic - steel rim brake Video 2 of 2 sub 17 lbs ruclips.net/video/3gWt9BVYQWY/видео.html
@@Mapdec yes me too! As mechanics we see so much of the dirty little secrets of the industry. I’ll keep an eye out for your future videos. I like to surround myself with people that talk sense and not marketing BS. Cheers mate!
What a great perspective. Thank you so much. I’m in the process of putting a new bike together. I think I’ll go ultegra 11 speed which I already have on other bikes with no complaints whatsoever. I just don’t like the right and left shifter sram way of shifting.
Electronic rear mech replacement really hit home. I crashed in a crit last year and man did my derailleur look jacked. Thought I was in for a big bill. However, crash mode saved the day I can only assume. Bike shop replaced the hanger and now I have some 'patina'.
Note that the 11-speed (and presumably 12-speed) 105/Ultegra cranks can accept a 33T chain ring (TA makes them). So that's 1/2 towards your 34->32T progression.
My friends di2 bricked after he tried adjusting rear derailleur. Shimano support wasn't able to help. So we took bike to where it was bought. Unexpectedly closed that day. Took bike back home put it in stand and was now working perfectly😅. Interestingly the Shimano tech support guy said he uses mechanical on all his bikes.....🤔
@mapdec just on the batteries, The 1632 battery can be bought in car parts stores, it’s common size for car alarm key fobs FYI same sone goes in the quarq tyrewiz sensors
Disagree. Apple is a premium product. Sram isn't. Used force and rival and quality is poor. Maintenance is difficult and querky. Would never recommend sram over shimano.
I bought 11spd 105 as soon as it came out, and it's brilliant. I was gonna go Tiagra, but I thought 'future proof' cos there's 3 rungs below 105. Even if 105 went to 14spd, that would mean Sora could still be bottom of the pile at 11spd. I'm hoping there's still gonna be 11spd parts for a long time, even if I have to tipex 105 on Tiagra or Claris parts!
Enjoying the channel and have to confess I am an analog enthusiast as well. However, I want to share my opinion on the Di/electronic hype. I am actually never seeing that addressed in the comments. The biggest problem of electronics is not necessary the reliability; it is lack of understanding by manufacturers that customers brake the bank to purchase their dream bike or their mid-life crisis machine for thousands of euros. They will ride their new love for 1 or 2 years before losing interest or having big changes in their lives. This is than followed by a moment in time of rediscovering their love for race bikes 5-8 years later. Kids grown up, career in steady waters etc. Getting the dust of from that old love that was dumped in the garage under a blanket. It is an abomination that people will figure out their 8 years old 5000 euro plus costing beauty cannot be restarted because the battery platform is discontinued or industry standard changed and parts are not available. That is the moment your will appreciate analog gear. Why even bother brand loyalty when they cannot support legacy systems and platforms (for a fair price)?
My "nice bike" has Di2 12 speed with disc brakes and is a fantastic ride, However, it comes out on warm, dry days only and I would NEVER sling it in a bike box to venture abroad. For holidays, I keep my "analogue" 2016 bike with mechanical Ultegra and rim brakes. That means fewer breakdowns, easy access to spares from any bike shop, no gas in the the hydraulics, no Di2 battery disappearing down the seat tube, no bent rotors, cheap to insure and probably 99% as rapid as my "nice bike". Horses for courses.
I would suggest that electronic shifting is accurate, and happily, for the manufacturer, cheaper to produce. Business is always reliant on profit and the accountants trump engineers. The SRAM adoption for me is complicated by the affinity of brake fluid for water. Mineral oil is less aggressive on paint and more suited to the cyclist's moist outdoor environment. My head says Shimano Ultegra , 105 or GRX mechanical are probably the pinnacle of shifting bang for buck. Add to that my GRX has just gone 6000KM on one rear shifter cable. I think that's pretty good. Forget the battery.
I agree with you, there is just no point in getting 2x12 for the road, gravel, maybe, but road just no... You will get a system that is harder to setup , chains that last shorter, and all together more finicky crap.
Main reason I don’t like SRAM is because they use DOT brake fluid. There’s just no need for it, and it’s a nasty caustic water absorbing fluid. There are minor things to hate but that one is unforgivable.
Watching this later down the line, it’s sounds like it’s a relief that Shimano finally released a mechanical version of 12spd 105. Personally I’m happy enough with my old Tiagra 4600. The rear derailleur needed replacing this year, trickier because of different pull ratio on the newer Tiagra, so it’s not a straight replacement, but thankfully the bike shop had a an old 10 Speed Ultegra one lying around which they fixed up and fitted. Shifts great! I don’t want a £400 rear derailleur 😬
I don't have a problem with 12 speed. I don't want electronic. I have AXS on both of my MTBs. On my XC race bike, which I rarely ride, it's fine. Except I almost learned the hard way that the shifter battery doesn't last as long as I thought. But on my trail bike, I don't like it. I don't want to have to worry about a dead battery. I don't want to carry a spare on bigger rides (I killed one on a ride). I just want to be able to go ride it. And that's my issue with electronics. I commute daily, I don't want another battery to charge. Bad enough with my headlight, tail light, and Garmin, but technically I don't need any of those to ride (and I have charged while riding with a battery pack). I considered getting a dyno hub to make life easier, but I also love the feel of my race bike every day (SuperSix Evo is fully slammed). Oh well. Either a lower tier system, or Sram 😢
The best thing about 12 speed groupsets is that it means the suckers are unloading their perfectly awesome 11spd components. I don't think anyone not actually on the books of a race team is getting any quantifiable benefits of anything above Sora or Tiagra. Esp on road bikes. Roads are tame, no one needs all this bloated mess on their bikes. And more, none of us really benefit. "But my gear steps!!" Gear overlap says hi. But hey, I just snagged a pair of GRX 2x11 shifters, basically as new condition, for $200 and a pair of 105 calipers with about a month of use for $80. So everyone keep doing what you're doing. Meanwhile, I'm just going to flip the left shifter for $150 and find a decent used 810-LA and probably only be in the hole for about $100 once the dust settles.
First time viewer. Just subscribed, love your analysis. All this shifting stuff is getting too complicated and you were able to dumb it down nicely. Was contemplating a di2 for my Colnago C59….may hold off a bit as my 11speed Ultegra is perfectly fine!
Really interesting , thanks very much for the insight into Electronic shifting. I still fail to see what is wrong with 11 speed mechanical 105 when it is set up correctly but it is nice to hear these different points of view !
100% agree about the automatic shifting! If you are going to the expense & hassle of electronic shifting, then the way that it should actually improve the ride experience is to shift automatically so that you can pedal your preferred cadence. Just like automatic cars, it's also safer since you can just focus on your surroundings, but (as with cars) there is also an awful lot of gatekeeping around the old way of doing things!
I'm in total agreement about the annoyance of having batteries in the shifters versus hard-wiring... especially if the battery is not a standard size. One of the downsides of modern cycling is that I have to charge lights, the computer, shifters, etc. To me, the fewer things I have to charge, the better... give me 1 plug for the components like 11 speed Di2 has, not 1 plug and an arsenal of special batteries.
Is digital gear shifting the end of vintage racing bikes? Until a few years ago, I always took part in the OPEL cycling tour in Ruesselsheim in southern Hesse (Germany). There was also a vintage tour with OPEL bikes, production of which stopped in 1936. Will it still be possible in decades to ride current aero racing bikes with digital gears, internal disc brake cables and a lot of proprietary parts?
Excellent point. Look at the vintage stuff people are still riding. All the "aero" stuff that Shimano introduced in the mid-80s is incompatible with anything and there are very very few people out there who are "into" it and spares availability even on the second-hand market is atrocious. This is the future I predict for electronic shifting until a "standard to be followed" is determined.
Good point re 1x12sp. I started roadccling just at end of 9sp. 2x 11sp is sweet spot for me ,as good for my 34x32 smallest gear for the steep stuff. But for an average 2.5w/kg person even a 34x32 is too hard for many climbs over 8%, so I agree having smaller front ring options makes a lot of sense. Not much fun for a new cyclist struggling up a 10%+ hill at 40rpms!
Nearly choked on my coffee when you priced a gear hanger at £20. Must be gold plated. I paid £1.50 for one from China. (and before anyone says it will just break, it's supposed to) Great videos by the way.
I love this channel.....one of the best! I was torn between Shimano and my favorite for last 15 years plus....SRAM. I chose to remain in the SRAM camp as I migrated to electronic wireless shifting as it is more intuitive for me. I have nothing against Shimano electronic other than with SRAM, you can carry extra batteries to switch out and Shimano uses a centralized single in-frame system. To each their own.
I am an experienced bike mechanic and own my own small bike shop. I'm fortunate enough to be able to choose from anything on the market. I've just built myself a stunning new Cinelli Superstar road bike... What groupset have I used? 10 year old, used Sram Red 10 speed mechanical, rim brake. I think that says it all.
The lightest ever made. Those Yaw mechs though. Oh and the rear mech cages always snapped. Oh and the brake levers flexed. Other than that. Yeah. Best groupo of the 2010s
Centaur. 12 up cassette. Job done. Also consider it took until 2017 for Beryl Burtons 12 hrs TT record of 1967 to be beaten, just. You don't need this stuff. Tiagra with a lighter chainset if you want Shimano. Hey, use a 105 rear mech, 11 speed chain and scrape the tiagra words off the levers for that extra Richmond Park cudos 😀😀
I've not tried DI2, nor Sram AXS, but I use Archer D1X Trail, paddle remote. they have a left handed version too. The advantage of it is you can set it up to the speed I want, just make sure cassette and RD are compatible, you can use any mechanical RD. The app is easy to use, easy to set up and adjust each gear, change the setup. but you don't have to use the app to adjust each gear you can long press the button on the remote and and use the remote to adjust the position of each gear. So in my opinion this is far superior. Charging is easy, take off the remote connect it to a charger or you computer, for the shifter you undo the cap, and use a magnet to get the batteries out, but the new faster batteries increased shifting speed by 50%, but battery life is short, but they drop out of the shifter easier, so tilting bike forward helps, they come out. I have spare batteries with me in my backpack. I can adjust each gear, so when the RD gets sloppy and worn I can continue to use it longer. The remote is wireless. Ergonomics are great. there is also remotes for drop bars: MFR Drop Bar Remote which are universal, but also DBR Remote which integrates into the TRP road brakes/shifters.
Was recommended your vids by the RUclips algorithm and really enjoying them. It’s not just an egotistical rant, you really make a lot of sense and give out good info. Subscribed. 👍🏻
I'm really considering buying a couple of pairs of 105 11sp hydraulic shifters before they are all gone, I don't want to 'upgrade' to 12sp or to Di2, but I do want my bikes to be nice... Does this make me a retro grouch?
My biggest problem with 105 DI2 is the brakes. They haven’t put the servowave tech in. Paying that high a premium but one of the biggest issue with brakes from previous versions you do t get. The extra cost would be so small it’s just a piss take. Same with the front Mech it’s just the 11 speed one rebadged. The cost difference is pretty small and after watching GC performances video on the difference with Ultegra isn’t that much really in weight. Seems they put heavier fittings to justify the weight and price difference.
So basically it all boils down to the fact that electronic shifting is all hassle over hassle. Why is Shimano erasing the possibility of installing any type of groupset you like, just like Campagnolo does? I'm currently running a 1x system based on Campagnolo Chorus 12s and it's all brilliant!! Amazing and smooth shifting (mechanical, of course), and powerful braking (rim brakes). And it's way cheaper than Ultegra.
For as long as a mechanical rim braked Record group is actually cheaper than the mundane Ultegra, the decision for me is clear. I wouldn't want any of the new 12spd Shimano groups on my bike, and that comes from a 35 year huge Shimano fan. I've always run a top-end group from the generation behind, and find that the best cost v performance, never had an issue sourcing parts even on 15 year old stuff... DA mechanical 11spd is more desirable than any of the above, nowt wrong with cables and they don't need charging...
They do the lower gear option you mentioned in GRX. Obviously it's currently 11 speed but i'm sure a 12 speed version is in the works. I currently use the 48/31 on my gravel bike, which doubles up as a road bike with a different set of wheels.
totally agree on the 105. Great content. as an audioengineer I'd say: get some mobile acoustical panels to reduce the room reflections to the microphone.
Ranting? Not at all. I'm a huge Shimano fanboy... but I'm also a realist. Your Shimano critiques are 100%; they could have done a better but god damn they still make good equipment 😀👍
Sensah all the way, I had previously had elite 50mm carbon wheels,bought a Delihea fore carbon frame that had Sensah empire 11 speed mechanical and combined the lot. I had SRAM on PX bikes previously and the shifting is smooth and crisp.In total weighs 7. 9kg.The only issue is the jockey's weight! greetings from Ireland.can you do a sensah review, plus another chinese manufacturer LTWOO is doing a full hydraulic groupset for 200gbp, check china cycling.It all comes from Asia anyway!
I find it annoying that the new ultegra dt2 12speed does not offer an 11/36 cassette. When in the European mountains an extra bit of range makes a world of different during a alpine grand fondo. I've just bought a new specialised Aethos and going to see if it works with a 105 11/36 cassette. Also i totally agree that they should have created the charging port using a USBC.
Whenever direct comparison is involved it's always going to divide opinions, that's natural. I do agree with most of it. I've been using Shimano since I can remember but the biggest disappointment came with Grx 2x11 where they wouldn't offer crank length below 170mm in 810 range. I somehow managed to solve my problem combining it with rotor but the alarm bells started ringing for me. I think they are beginning to lose their total domination; I think they are aware of it and I'm pretty sure there is not much they can do about it anymore (look 5-6 years back how many bikes came of the factory with SRAM vs how many You see nowadays). Would I choose Sram over Shimano? Maybe but I think AXS is a platform with much greater and faster improvement potential than Shimano even with current 12speed so I'm expecting things like automatic shifting based on cadence to be much likely to happen in AXS platform than Shimano. One thing that I totally disagree though is raising the argument of the system brain being stored in the rear derailleur and prone to expensive repair/replacement in the cause of crash. Yes it's true but it's true for BOTH Shimano and SRAM and for some strange reason it's being identified as a biggest CON against Shimano and not even part of the conversations in case of SRAM - strange... to me at least. Interesting analogy with the IT world and very correct as well. In the IT hardware world which is my daily playground the Good Better Best has been the strategy since day one but interestingly some time ago market has seen a switch to a two-step strategy rather than 3. We see the value for money customer and then we see the performance-oriented customer. The prosumer/enthusiast customers have slowly started to disappear to the point where it was no longer feasable to maintain. I honestly believe with 12 speed and electronic shifting it would be absolutely enough if they only kept 105 and dropped the pricing for Dura-ace slightly to please the rich customer. After all Dura-Ace is nothing but the cash cow for Shimano. Good material. Keep on with providing a great content. I'm a big fan.
Agree on the 2 tier point. MCW also mentioned in the vid that Ultegra 12sp is a bit underwhelming compared to the 105. I have the R8000, but now that SHIMANO have discontinued the 53/39 option for Ultegra I can’t see the point of it anymore. Why would you pay extra over 105 di2, especially when the weights are so similar…maybe Ultegra will be discontinued after this iteration?
I'm pretty sure you know by now (I'm only 11 months late to this party!), but you don't *need* a new PCE02 for 12-speed Di2... just the EW-AD305 adapter or the (crazily expensive new SD300 type link cable). The 'new' PCE02 itself is identical to the one we've been using for years :). Great video either way!
@@Mapdec what, one year after 12-speed Ultegra and DA release? :) The info was definitely there, also in the Shimano docs…. just spread out over 10 different files. 💩 …That’s why my instructions are better than Shimano’s, easier to read for time-crunched mechanics and users :)
Here's a hot take from a professional bike mechanic of over 13 years and counting.
Over the following years mechanical shifting will go away and then come back like Swiss watches as a premium item.
Electronic shifting will become like cheap digital watches and be cheap because the same switches, batteries and motors can be used in all trim levels of shifting and only the external part materials and their weight will determine the level of quality of shifting parts.
The only reason why the electronic stuff costs so much right now is that it is marketed as premium when in reality the biggest cost cutting will be in the electronic shifting. Electronics will be shared in all price points leading to overall lower cost to manufacture as opposed to having to produce loads of tiny parts for shift lever mechanisms to different tolerances out of different materials.
So my prediction is that in the future the premium level bikes will have really nicely made mechanical stuff most likely marketed as authentic feel or some shit like that and electronics will be the bog standard in every price level.
It will take time to get there but it sure looks like the future right now when you consider the speed that people are willing to buy the electronic junk in shifting and e-bikes etc.
The trend seems to be that adding a battery and electronic function is somehow sought after at the moment and mainstream consumers are lapping it up no questions asked.
Of course there will always be some Far-East factory making parts for whatever is the most common old mechanical item on the market at the most lowest price possible out of garbage materials. But when it comes to new western world quality level consumer bikes the trend will be as I described above.
The biggest joke this far that I have seen is this in the same bike:
(Number is the amount of batteries)
E-bike battery (1)
Sram Flight attendant shock + fork + crank spindle sensor (3)
Sram AXS Shifting 1-by (2)
Sram AXS dropper post (2)
Add into that the common stuff like:
Bike computer (1)
Battery operated front + rear light (2)
Complete bike ready to ride with accessories has 11 batteries to keep track of by charging or swapping as needed.
Must be fun preparing for a ride with that bike.
I do not like where the bike industry is heading and will keep riding my mechanical drivetrains as long as I can, but it will get increasingly more difficult as time passes and planned incompatibility and dwindling spare parts supply creep forward.
This is amazing. Pinning this!
This a million times over. You'd have to really reduce the functionality of an "analog" non-electronic bike to get me to say that on balance the decked out electronic bike wins. I love being able to get on my bike whenever I want and go wherever my muscles can take me, no gas, no charging, no batteries that wear out even when sitting idle or die in cold temperatures
Great Post this is like manual gearbox in a porsche it's in the GT3 with is porsches premium car
Though I agree with you in what will happen. I disagree that electronic is bad. I've been using di2 for almost 10 years now and it is genuinely the better choice for me. It stays in tune and doesn't require any cable adjustment or replacement. There's no need to double tap the FD at least on Shimano to better align it depending on where the RD is.
Sure...it's bloody expensive if you knock or wreck a piece of di2 gear..but if we remove price...di2 offers a better experience.
Using something just because we have used it is a stupid argument. Equally just as suggesting all progress is great.
But how is electronic bad?
I was a mechanic and service manager in Southern California bike shops for fifteen years, starting when Super Record was still available and when 7400 Dura-Ace was competing with Superbe Pro, and getting out of the business when electronics/hydraulics/planned obsolescence/limited options/etc etc (i.e. all the trappings of a modern consumer society) became the new normal. For me, a bicycle should reflect minimalism, simplicity, repairability, versatility, elegance, in other words everything that bikes these days are not. I am an unabashed retrogrouch, and all the happier for it! I'm so glad that my bikes are essentially 100% reliable and need no batteries for them to function. My touring bike, a custom 531ST with an eclectic mix of simple proven parts, has taken me across India and Nepal with no, and I mean absolutely zero, failures, not even any flat tyres; if I'm in the middle of New Mexico or crossing the Mojave Desert hundreds of miles from the nearest decent bike shop I cannot risk any breakdown at all. Would I have achieved this level of absolute reliability with electronica? Obviously not. Yes, traditional bikes like my six beauties are laughably anachronistic these days, and they're all the better for it. I'm so glad I got out of the bike world's ever-increasing cynicism and disdain for their customers when I did. I look at the current marketing-led lunacy from afar with pity and sorrow, and I try to relate to all those naive suckers who have been mindlessly duped into it, but to no avail.
This has quickly become one of my favorite channels.
Well reasoned opinions, rational and balanced (things like value for money taken into account, serviceability and fit for purpose depending on type or style of riding).
Majority of the 'objective opinions' expressed by YT channels are actually largely unsubstantiated preferences (often by dyed in wool roadies or touring cyclists prone who blindly favor tradition over progression) or equally groanworthy , totally biased 'objective sponsored content'. Having preferences is fine, but shoving it down our throats as an absolute truth is grating.
Kudos to you and others of your ilk (Peak Torque, Hambini etc).
Thank you for the kind words
Thank you Sir.Your unbiased perspective has been very insightful and appreciated, as I am considering investing in my next bike.
Path less pedaled is another great channel. He talks about friction shifting and cable disc brakes in 2023.
@@joelv4495 Path Less Pedaled is the antithesis of Mapdec. Funnily enough the channel that first comes to mind NOT having objective opinions is Path Less Pedalled.
Most of his takes are so inconsistent with previous ones he’s unleashed. He's just as dismissive about "professional" cycling culture as he claims "professional" cycling culture to be. Everything is for clicks and views and likes and traffic, including being an exaggerating, excessively opinionated retro grouch.
The guy literally spends hours talking about old tech/being less wasteful/bringing cycling 'for the people', then proceeds to say everyone NEEDS a $500 boutique square taper crank, $300 artisan cable disc brake calipers and a "humble" steel frame that costs more than many mid-range carbon framesets.
@@lenolenoleno ya, there is certainly a retro grouch element, but you've gotta admit it's a pretty shit strategy to toss a pair of $500+ hydro brifters just because the latest groups added a gear.
Also, why the heck do you need to change shifters on electronic groups to add a speed? Seems like an odd limitation, since they accept firmware updates and there's no real reason except it puts more money in their pocket.
His ideas aren't about being cheap, they are about 🖕vendor lock-in.
Still very happy with my Ultegra 11 spd mechanical set. Every shift is bang on. Why bin the 105 mechanical option, Shimano? Past Ultegra would have made a superb new 105 and not force customers to a much more expensive purchase of an electronic groupset no one needs.
>no one needs
Can say quite a few things about it, but that isn't one of them. Unless ignore people who have issues with their fingers/wrists etc... or simply hate with a passion how say front shifting into big ring feels. (as in stops you from enjoying it etc)
Electronic groupsets is great for forced obsolescence. As you can't buy new 1st gen. Di2 parts anymore.
Mechanical groupsets can last an entire lifetime of a bike. Which means there is no end of life support for electronic parts by the manufacturer after 5-10 years.
Just bought a new R8000 groupset and built another bike with super record 12 mechanical 😁 They are still available so go get them
@@YuudachiPois yeah I see where you are coming from and I totally do understand.
Still, to force this upon people looking for a mid tier groupset on somewhat of a budget just isn't right to me. They should have left a choice between a 105 electronic and mechanical being the trickled down Ultegra, my opinion. It will serve the Sensahs and whatever Chinese brands out there to take a larger share of the market, well that's just the way it works.
You've just answered your own question mate. When in doubt, follow the money.
100% agree on the gearing issues on bikes, and often wondered why they don't offer the 46/30 (x 12/13-36?) in 105- lets face it most bikes are massively over geared and they don't seem to consider that some of us live in places like the Scottish Highlands where descending at 70km/h is FAR less important than getting up a long steep hill, many of us are not that young, or are not the "perfect weight"... I've an old Carrera TDF that has only the original frame left on it now( Triggers Brush springs to mind...) which came with 2x7 Tourney and a lowest of 34/28 on a 12.5kg bike, that's now got (ebay) Tiagra 4600 on it so I could run a M-592 MTB mech on it and it has a low of 34/36 but I'm planning an 11-40 cassette as it will handle it easily.... and when the chainrings go eventually I'll probably put on FSA Tempo 46/30...It's my winter bike now, My better bike for summer has Sora R3000 ironically with the same derailleur, and I've split 2 and built a USABLE cassette 14-36...... (but got a 105 groupset from CRC for £299 for "future proofing", keep it in storage for now lol)
Hey. Good skills on all that compatibility.
Why do you need 105 in 46-30T when you can get that in GRX? You can mix and match GRX and 105/Ultegra. I make 12-36T 10-speed cassettes by taking a 11-36T and changing the 11T for a 12T (since the 2nd smallest is a 13T). Brilliant "gravel"/CX cassette with a 48-31T or 46-33T crank.
I absolutely agree. I’m trying to put compact on a lightly used Evo Hi mod that I just picked up for second hand recently. It’s taken hours to try and find a compact and have had to go down to ultegra for the front rings and rear cassette and need to swap out the RD to accommodate the 32T cassette I want. Even then on some climbs I can’t maintain the seated cadence I prefer.
I get I can use GRX but that’s not the point. Shimano should be prioritising the consumer and the majority of us don’t needs ‘sub compact’ in a road gruppo
@@lastfm4477 I thought the chainline on GRX was wider than road because it's ""gravel"? Maybe wrong....
@@onthemoveot Ok, bit confused at your last sentence? Are you pro or anti "road spec" 46/30?!! .... the vast majority of us don't need 36/52 or 39/53 and that's always catered for, so why not offer 46/30 sub-compact in road spec(not gravel) for those of us who care for our knees lol....bet they'd be surprised at how many they shifted and for a lot of folk the 11-13 cogs might finally get some use....Doesn't affect the frame manufacturers and chainstay position, maybe make that braze on FD a bit longer and lower down? Doesn't mean bigger and heavier cassettes to get lower gears when you've shrunk the chainset significantly. It's funny but when Black Friday is on and groupsets are on offer it's always the silly high geared cranksets that are left over on offer with 175mm cranks....mere mortals don't want them clearly....
After watching this very insightful view into the new electronic groupsets and disc brakes im so pleased i bought a couple of R7000 105 rim brake groupsets when they were £300 on Wiggle...thats me sorted until Tiagra comes out as 11 speed for replacement parts. No messing with batteries or recoding/downloading anything, just a new cable and good to go 👍🏻
Love the channel btw, nice to see someone down to earth talking about the bike industry...keep it up 🎉
Thank you
I’ve mentioned this many times before here and elsewhere. A class action right to repair lawsuit needs to be brought against Shimano and the others, due to the extreme cost of these electronic parts. Mandate that they sell every part of a derailleur etc as well as tools to do the job. Also Shimano should be mandated to provide a regional repair center where these parts can be sent for repair, or exchanged for a refurbed model when damaged beyond repair.
Yes. Refurbished parts would be so cool.
it's better not to buy and get something else they will never change their business model unless it hurts the sales
Spares?? Tell SRAM what it means, please. Please. Rgr
I would generally agree to you, but.....takes too long or/and to do this process takes too long.
It is very obvious that Shimano and SRam are currently agreeing on their prices and are working against the interest of their customers.
The solution might be some chinese company that attacks this foolish overpriced market really hard. If I would be a chinese/indian/arab billionaire with too much money....i would buy Campa and would attack Shimano/SRam as hard as possible, they really deserved it.
I have some glam italian bikes in my garage (for sure not a bargain), and even I am completely pxxxed by the actual price politics.
I punish them by not buying.
My main issue is they stopped making 11s mechanical rim brake one evolution cycle to early. They should also announce and commit to making 11s 105 and Ultegra mechanical rim brake parts for a guaranteed period minimum of 7-10 years.
70 years would be better.
I am not a 'consumer' cyclist and I've been sourcing parts to build two bikes shortly, one complete refurbish and upgrade build for Crit racing/fast sportive and one new build for long distance/Audax, one built with Dura Ace 9100 and the other with Ultegra R8000, for me a road bike has to fulfil two main requirements:
- Fully analogic
- Rim brake
The only batteries I have are the 'sensors': computer, and heart rate and cadence only for training/racing and I don't use power meter, if from now on I am really pushed to the point I have no option but to buy electronic shifting I would start considering going all in Chinese and consider the likes of LTWOO or Sensah.
I just can't stand the lack of choice we are going towards to.
I cannot see myself dropping my two main requirements for a road bike any time soon... ever really.
Interesting that the new Di2 Groupsets are very competitively priced for OEM manufacturers. New bike prices seem to be less than I expected.
I agree with you about gear ratios.
I'm using 46/30 and 14/40 with 105 R7000 (front mech is Ultegra). I live in Taipei (lots of mountains) and constantly hit 10%+, 15%+ and more often than not 20%+. The original 50/34 and 11/34 wasn't nearly as low as I needed to explore the many small roads around here. Judging by the number of cyclists I met in the main roads (usually with more reasonable gradients) and the number of cyclists I met in the secondary and tertiary roads (usually with crazy gradients), more people would benefit from lower gears to be able to explore the quieter roads.
My knees and my heart loved the change. My chain too, because I can have a better chainline for more time.
I don't care at all about pedalling at 60km/h. Not wanting to win any race here.
Looking after my knees and having the choice to ride in a lower zone or high cadence when climbing is essential to me. Use 50-39-26T chainsets on most my bikes.
@@draugmithrin I like the simplicity of 2x more than 3x, although it needs a wider cassette for similar range. Also, in my case it would required a shifter change. But 3x is definitely an option.
I'm convinced that the current popularity of road bikes is due to the more human friendly gear ratios. Give the option to make them even more friendly and it will only introduce more people to the sport.
It does feel like the actual real life user is being forgotten about a bit.
@@cc-000 Yes, the industry has been moving in the right direction, but it's not quite there yet. I don't know what is your region. It could be flat Florida or hilly Switzerland. But you said it: you're fit. Still you were suffering before and now you're fine. Newcomers still suffer with 1:1 ratios in harder climbs. Not to mention that some gravel bikes also have 1:1 or slightly lower as the lowest gear.
Absolutely agree. I’m putting together a “gravel race” bike and still don’t feel the out of box gearing on GRX is low enough. I chose the 810 48-31 chainring and I’m hoping to pair it with an 11-40 cassette on the GRX rear mech, which isn’t officially supported.
I think you've hit it all spot-on. Too many of current developments are moving towards less compatibility and more future obsolesence. Even simple things like 3rd party cranks & chainrings, let alone the difficulties of all the electronics. Once upon a time, Shimano were the epitome of cross-compatibility between groupsets and raod/MTB kit.
And what ordinary cyclist needs an 11t or 10t small cog? I've run 50 or 48 x 12 on road bikes for years, and theat hasn't slowed me down on even big alpine descents (and I've only ever come across 1 amateur rider faster than me downhill).
Personally, I'm a dedicated Campag fan for road bikes. I've found it bullet-proof reliable, easy to set up and needs no adjustment after intial bedding in. Never got on with the ergonomics & haptics of Shimano.
I have just fitted Rival ETAP/Easgle mullet to my new gravel bike, though. I'm blown away with how easy to set up that is and like you say, has the easy interface through the app (which isn't even needed for basic set-up). With the wireless, I can set up the bike easily for both drop & flat bars making the bike even more versatile. The Rival shifters also have a great shape for using on flared bars. If only they'd ditch that stupid flat-top chain and the different cassette standards (XD/XDR) to make the system even more cross-compatibile.
Thanks for the input. Great points.
Excellent Q’s and comments. Showing once again a thoughtful, knowledgeable and wide ranging community with a diverse range of experience and opinions. Great stuff. Definitely share concerns about accessibility for younger riders, and older riders, being able to maintain accessibility to our sport regardless of whether on slicks or knoblies.
Well said!
I'm with you on making 48/34 and 46/32 more common available chainrings for getting more people into cycling. Especially in hilly areas where those climbs offer beautiful views but can be hard to reach and discouraging on the commonly larger chain rings.
There is plenty of that available in "middle earth". All you need is to get over your brand programming.
My first bike had 46/30 front and 11-32 rear. Best ratio for beginners, climbs well and is fast enough for a newbie. Now I'm riding 12 speed and looking to get a 48/33 chainrings. The smaller steps allow for smaller chainrings vs big 52s amd 50s.
My "CX" stock bike is fitted with 46-36, 34-11, 11sp, so different than my old road bike, 53-40 25-11 7sp!
Both Shimano, I hope the new one lasts as long as the previous one, which was the cheapset groupset at this time, RSX...
I think I'll stick with 10 speed mechanical Dura Ace and Record thanks - too many electronic gimmicks in the world, I don't need more on my bikes.
Yeah. Given the amount of gear overlap, I don't see any real reason to go above 10sp on road unless you are daily riding up the Andes. I also have to work on my own bikes so electronic is simply a non-starter for me. I can reasonably confidently tear down a mech shifter.
I think you should try an electronic group set before you solidify your preference. I thought electronic shifting was marketing hype when it first came out. Now that I own a bike with electronic shifting, I won't go back to mechanical.
I love my Campy Chorus 12 speed. No electric issues, all the range, looks fantastic, sounds great, and is more reliable than the Shimano on my MTB. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm now a Campy fanboy.
That’s cool. Lots of people swear by Linux,
I'll stick to 9-speed mechanical, easy to maintain, mix and matchable, reliable and affordable.
I agree. Still on 9-speed Record from 98 on one of my bikes. Bike gear has gone downhill since then. If it wasn't for the stupid HT BB, 7700 DA was peak Shimano. Until your rear mech fails and then you (and I) are stuck with what's available on the second-hand/NOS market.
I stick 10 speed.😂
Why not have them all? I have bikes with Simplex and Huret 3 and 4 speed, Cyclo Benelux 3 speed. Sturmey Archer 3 speed. Campag 5,6 and 9 speed. Shimano 7,9’12. I love them all! Some go back to my schooldays in the 1950’s. Never diss anything! I LOVE my 12 speed Di2 Ultegra on my Look 765. Also my Gitane triple 7 speed Shimano GSX. They all still work. Here in France, things are cheaper. I look after my bikes. I have NEVER in 70 odd years of cycling broke a rear mech ffs! How the hell do you do that? I never regretted buying an Ultegra! What is up with you dude!?
The computer analogy is brilliant, loved it!
I like these opinion vids, keep them up. It's interesting to hear the frustration from the mechanics point of view.
I have similar rants. Especially about proprietary connectors 😂
I totally agree with your comments about mechanical 105 and Tiagra. I have both (with hydraulic discs) on my bikes and both have been faultless for years.
I've never run out of gears (nor for that matter on my mountain bikes over the years)... (Except on my 3 speed Brompton, but that's a whole other problem 😂).
However, I do covet lovely, shiny, expensive stuff tho, so maybe when I win the lottery I'll be able to get something with electronic Dura-Ace on it. I can dream...
I would certainly like to try it out, see what the real difference is.
Good luck in your hunt for diagnostic boxes and 1632 batteries 😂👍
Recently bought a new roadie and wanted to try electronic shifting. Previous roadie has 11sp 105 rim brake and I’ve been very happy with it. Ended up going with Ultegra Di2 and love it. I wanted the semi-wireless (or full wireless if I had chosen SRAM). I didn’t necessarily think I needed 12sp but I do actually like the extra gear. 50/34 with 11-34 is ideal for me and where I ride, same as what have on my 105 roadie but with the extra gear. Love having the climbing satellite switches.
Like this video format 👍
Repair prices quickly get expensive with these new Shimano groupsets. A customer of mine recently broke a 12sp ultegra rear mech and it cost just shy of £400 to get the bike back on the road. That did include a new hanger and some work on the rear wheel (spokes, truing, retentioning) but the significant cost was in the rear mech.
Agree fully on the charge cable, should be USB C and the diagnostic box, stupid and impossible to purchase. Just build it into the PC or phone software.
I have 3 bikes with sram red e-tap.i have 1 with shimano dura ace di2...ultimately the di2 is just about the best but for ease on use and convenience sram e-tap is the best,its easy to swop components and also parts from bike to bike.The sram gear ratios are also very good,and once set up correctly its trouble free.Shimano does need tweaking occasionally. Your channel is getting better and better.
Thank you Dave.
Funny you mention “once set up properly”. My SRAM etap front derailleur kept dropping my chain not matter how much I tweaked it.
Switched it to a new bike frame after a few months, mounted the same group, had a great mechanic put some final touches on it it ever since the entire group shifts INCREDIBLE.
I feel like shimano doesn’t need perfection to be reliable but once you get a sram dialled in its wonderful and actually shifting is more fun than on my R8000 ULTEGRA which is on my other bike.
SRAM force etap is slowly becoming quit cheap as well this year.
@@flooooooo0686 Yes a lot cheaper than Shimano.
@@flooooooo0686 did you set up the derailleur according to the official sram video with the plastic chainring tool?
@@poufro as i stated above, mechanic did it.
I completely agree, the Sram Rival AXS is a top choice, considering the price and what upgrade options it offers. Most people still don't know that Sram AXS offers many more gear ratio options than Shimano, so you can adjust the gear ratio to your needs, abilities and terrain. I've been a Shimano guy for years, but with the latest Shimano 105 Di2 I'm completely disappointed. Only two cassette options 11-34 and 11-36 and rear derailleur with min. low sprocket 34T. That means you can't even use an 11-30 cassette from Ultegra 8100 or Dura Ace Di2 9200. Totally limited selection. Big minus for Shimano. Sram AXS (Rival/Rival Wide/Force/Force Wide/Red) is a real contender.
Good point about the 11-30
“Shimano gay?” … not that there’s anything wrong with that.
@@BikePappy upss ...😂
@Charles Man pretty much all I think about.
Love the analogy of Windows, Mac and Linux. This is my opinion on Shimano v SRAM. I've never owned SRAM, but when I look at pure spec's, they are heavier and more expensive. Two things that are important to me. I also use the hood top buttons to switch screens on my Garmin, which I believe SRAM doesn't have. Charging isn't an issue to me as I am used to plugging a proprietary cable into my bar end to charge it, and another set of cables for the Giant PowerPro. The main issue is that as the batteries last ages, you need to remember to charge them. SRAM has had the 12 speed for a while now, and personally, I am looking forward to my next bike with an 11-34T cassette. My previous bikes were 11-25 10-speed (then upgraded to 11-28), 11-30 11-speed, and next will be 11-34 12 speed. Essentially the gearing will stay the same, except I get an extra cog with 34 to deal with all those hills that just seem to get steeper as I get older. The last 10 years has been Ultegra Di2, and with the latest upgrades, I understand that the only significant difference between Ultegra and Dura-Ace are the materials used and subsequent weight. I am not planning on any racing, so Ultegra it is. I'm not a mechanic, but in 10 years I have had zero problems with my Di2 group sets. I am sure that SRAM is fine, but in my case, there aren't any value propositions that would make me want to switch from Windows to Mac 😉
I would like to see more crankset options, in terms of crank length and chain ring size choices, spec'd on new bikes. If you look at Rotor's modular design, the crank arms are customizable in 5mm increments (great for a proper bike fit) and their one-piece double chain rings are a work of art. I run small cranks and therefore have dropped down to a 46/30 chain rings but Rotor make picking your choices a breeze.
I think semi custom builds at factory are the future.
@@Mapdec I don’t believe we will see that-the bike shops love selling cranks,bars,stems,cassettes etc for customizing an “off the shelves” bike.
It’s all about 💵💶💰.The most ridiculous shop in our town is the Spezialized shop: About 500 square meters large with only 6 or 7 hugely overpriced bikes......
I've ridden all the major electronic groups, and settled on Shimano more for ergonomics and brake feel than shifting function. All of the major groups seem to move the chain well enough. The GRX Di2 levers are simply the most solid-feeling lever made, which makes them perfect for rough surfaces and cyclocross. I moved to the new 12-speed Ultegra on my road bike, and love the inward cant they give to my wrists. As for your comment on wiring up the levers on the new 12-speed Shimano - no. Wireless is the way to go. As a mechanic, I absolutely loathe the drive toward more integration(hiding cables), but given that is the direction the industry seems to be going, having fewer cables to force through a headset is a good thing. Sure, the battery may be a little harder to track down than a 2032, but I'll take that over feeding one more wire into a Tarmac.(FWIW, none of my bikes hides a cable in stem, headset, or handlebar)
As a home mechanic and user I went to wired, 1 charger for all and 50% more range. it's no brainer as a user. I install once, but charge/change cells more often.
I hate AXS because of that (I have both) wireless is not the way to go at least for 2x.
Just discovered the channel breath of fresh air. Now subscribed.
Thanks Kevin.
Just gonna buy spares of 11 speed Shimano mech. Mix an match, looks good. Rented a bike with Di2, not really into it and not bothered about 12 speed either.
thanks for you overview here I was thinking about the options for the Roubaix SL8 and I had decided on the 105 Sport as opposed to the 105 Di2 your overview confirmed I'm doing the right thing :)
I’m fortunate to own both the R8000 mechanical and the new Di2 12 speed. While I like the Di2 there are many items I don’t care for, many you listed. When people ask what is the best way to go, I recommend 105 mechanical. All you need and nothing you don’t. Buy better wheels and tires instead.
Yes Steve. !
I love this video, speak facts.
Updated last week to 105 Di2 and i love it
Updated from Super Record 12 to 105 di2 12 -> 105 di2 wins regarding functionality - no issues at all
I got mechanical 105 11 speed on my giant defy. Partly that was down to repair and replacement costs. I could afford the Ultegra Di2 up front cost but didn’t want to get an expensive repair cost down the line. I’m thinking of setting up a TT bike again but for that I’d probably go SRAM 1x12
1x12 on TT is ace
I'll keep on using my Mechanical 6800/9000 mix Rim brake groupset, which works PERFECTLY. Ah yes it works perfectly because I too am a SHIMANO SERVICE CENTER technician/mechanic. A bike is a bike, not a spaceship!
Yep the SMPCE02 ETUBE interface will be available in 105 days according to my B2B page.
I wonder if anyone has seen a PC02?
@@Mapdec I don't think an Interface from shimano by that name exists! Comunication can be done via SMPCEO1(Di2 10spd and first 11spd's Etube V.3) SMPCEO2 (Di2 11spd and 12spd's Etube V.4 & V.5 are supported).
My workplace has the SM-PCE02, just lacking the new wire for fourth-gen Di2.
And woo, glad to hear this mechanical-biased opinion from a Shimano Service Center mechanic!
@@yonglingng5640 keep it simple that's my idea.
@@RICHARD.WRIGHT1 Same here! 🙌 Speaking of which, regular internal routing is the most I'd want on my bike(s) in the long run.
I’m another 11 speed mechanical fan. No need for anything else in the amateur scene. Campy is my choice. All my rim brake aluminium wheels have a choice of campy or shimano freehubs. The best bit is the wide choice of gearing I can use, from 11-36 SRAM to 11-23 campy and everything inbetween….BBB or Miche, they all work with MKS chains. I am also my own mechanic for the past 39 years.
😊😊😊😊😊😊
Many valid points! I own the new Shimano DI2 Ultegra. I installed it myself this past August. It is a big improvement over the DI2 11 speed for the following reasons; much easier to install, no need to purchase a separate bluetooth "dongle" to communicate with the system via the E-Tube app, faster shifting on the front mech, much improved E-Tube app which aids in quick set up of both mechs and the wireless shifters work flawlessly. Here is the States we don't have a problem getting the 1632 batteries and I haven't needed to replace mine yet after 5 months of riding the bike a lot! Dislikes; cost, some chain noise on the cassette that I'v been unable to micro adjust away and I HATE the synchro shift which I promptly shut off. Other than that I love it and find it better overall than the previous generation. BTW I've ridden well over 100K miles in my career and never broken a rear mech. As usual I always enjoy your unfiltered opinions, its valuable work you're doing!!
I hope that luck holds for you buddy.
I ride 9 speed Sora! Works fine for me and the parts I wear out, chain, cassettes etc are very cheap to replace.
Yes. Very cheap. Works with a remarkable amount of wear and dirt too.
You provide clear information, and you seriously respond to your listeners’ comments.
Great public servant.
I try, I don’t always get it right. Appreciate your kind words.
I’m so happy to own an Émonda with mechanical Durace which weighs 6.4 kg. It’s 6 year old, I paid €3500 for it (brand new) and don’t see any interesting alternative right now. Outrageous prices, heavy and too much electronics.
To charge 12s Di2 at the RD, just use a power bank as the source of charge - no need to be near a mains plug.
Been riding 105 Di2 thru winter 50/34-11/34 on a Diverge with 32c tyres. Have to say it has been excellent so far. Brakes can get a bit noisy if not cleaned after 2-3 rides, only takes a blast of brake cleaner and a wipe. Front shifting is the real winner for me which is so much better than all my mechanical groups and I have them all. Ultimately it’s all about choice and how lucky we all are to have so much of it. Riding R7000 one day, R8000 another and R9100 on a steel framed custom build Sunday ride, no better time to be alive.
Never even used di2. Can't be faffing with batteries. Still rocking cable mechs.
12sp with 11-34 makes sense to me. I get similar range like 11-30 yet I don't need to compromise in terms of uphill.
However, I do think shimano did not quite get 12sp right. The cassette is becoming too complicated to achieve finer and more gears. This, at least, causes some unexpected issues on my 105 di2, e.g., unexpected noise, etc.
This was an excellent presentation and very comprehensive. I think that if you did the same for the Campagnolo current groupset lineup, and then maybe SRAM that would be unreal. A lot of times consumers have decided upon or are committed to one particular manufacturer, but are still considering where within the lineup to part with their hard earned cash. For Road I’m exclusively Campagnolo and have been for over 20 years, but there is a real lack of any info out there doing in depth direct comparison of Centaur v. Chorus v. Record v. Super Record other than price and I think if you did that you would be plugging a significant information gap.
Thanks Paddy.
Am thinking of switching to Campag for the first time ever next time around. There's talk of the 'special' tools needed, does this just boil down to the special chain tool with pin preener and then secondly the crank BB bearing puller?... I could live with that... or is there more quirkiness to invest in?
@@nellyx1x493 Hi - tbh although the chain peening is the official Campagnolo recommendation, I’ve never bothered with it. I just use a regular chain splitter and then a YBN quick link to join the chain and never had any problems. I prefer to do it this way as I use a waxed drivetrain and I remove my chain to clean and renew the wax in a crock pot every 300km so using a quick link is best solution. As regards special bb tools, more major / less frequent work on bike like this I leave to my local bike shop mechanic anyways. Pulling / changing / checking the BB is a once every 18 months job and I leave that to the professionals like the bloke in this video. So in short, no special tools are required subject to the above and depending on how much you want to do yourself.
Mostly the bb / crank tools these days. Bleed kit is pretty essential if you are home wrenching.
@@nellyx1x493 The cassette tool is different, but they're cheap. Lezyne make a cheaper peening chain tool. Not sure if the hydraulic brake installation/bleed kits may need anything different too - if you're working with discs?
Ive got Ultegra mechanical on my older bike and 105 Di2 on my new bike. After one season of riding it, i absolutely love it.
Nicely done mate! I’m a shop owner mechanic in the US with my own channel. I have railed on Shimano 105 Di2. One thing you said was interesting I absolutely hate synchro shifting as an experienced cyclist. I would also be annoyed if based on cadence the bike would shift on me. But I also understand that new cyclists have no clue how to shift properly and are usually crossed up so for the masses that might have worked.
Cheers
Thanks George. Have you tried the auto shift on Shimano e-bikes? It’s pretty good.
@@Mapdec thanks for the reply. I haven’t had the opportunity to ride a Shimano e-bike.
In other news, since watching your video I took another look at SRAM Rival AXS. I’m a steel rim brake guy and although I am a Shimano fan boy I would like to future proof a couple of my bikes. For example my Ritchey Road Logic it is currently R9100 bow to stern. I won’t be able to put Di2 on it but AXS would work.
I gave you sub because you were frank and didn’t spew marketing BS, something I loathe and keep off my channel.
My Ritchey Road Logic - steel rim brake Video 2 of 2 sub 17 lbs
ruclips.net/video/3gWt9BVYQWY/видео.html
I’ll check it out. I kinda started this out of frustration of the cycling media.
@@Mapdec yes me too! As mechanics we see so much of the dirty little secrets of the industry. I’ll keep an eye out for your future videos. I like to surround myself with people that talk sense and not marketing BS. Cheers mate!
What a great perspective. Thank you so much. I’m in the process of putting a new bike together. I think I’ll go ultegra 11 speed which I already have on other bikes with no complaints whatsoever.
I just don’t like the right and left shifter sram way of shifting.
Thank you Mario
@@Mapdec thank you. I think the batteries in the shifters it’s what did it for me. Lol
Electronic rear mech replacement really hit home. I crashed in a crit last year and man did my derailleur look jacked. Thought I was in for a big bill. However, crash mode saved the day I can only assume. Bike shop replaced the hanger and now I have some 'patina'.
Lucky escape dude
Note that the 11-speed (and presumably 12-speed) 105/Ultegra cranks can accept a 33T chain ring (TA makes them). So that's 1/2 towards your 34->32T progression.
My friends di2 bricked after he tried adjusting rear derailleur. Shimano support wasn't able to help. So we took bike to where it was bought. Unexpectedly closed that day. Took bike back home put it in stand and was now working perfectly😅.
Interestingly the Shimano tech support guy said he uses mechanical on all his bikes.....🤔
The Linux/Apple/Microsoft analogy.. brilliant!
As a Linux user myself,I like the Linux ~ Campagnolo analogy 😂
@mapdec just on the batteries,
The 1632 battery can be bought in car parts stores, it’s common size for car alarm key fobs
FYI same sone goes in the quarq tyrewiz sensors
Good info. Thanks.
The Windows, Apple, and Linux analogy...spot on.
Disagree. Apple is a premium product. Sram isn't. Used force and rival and quality is poor. Maintenance is difficult and querky. Would never recommend sram over shimano.
Lol. Sounds about right to me…. Perceived premium, difficult maintenance, querky. Wouldn’t recommend Mac to non techie.
95% Agree. Rival with the cranks, cassette and chain switched out. Great vid:D
I bought 11spd 105 as soon as it came out, and it's brilliant. I was gonna go Tiagra, but I thought 'future proof' cos there's 3 rungs below 105. Even if 105 went to 14spd, that would mean Sora could still be bottom of the pile at 11spd. I'm hoping there's still gonna be 11spd parts for a long time, even if I have to tipex 105 on Tiagra or Claris parts!
Enjoying the channel and have to confess I am an analog enthusiast as well.
However, I want to share my opinion on the Di/electronic hype. I am actually never seeing that addressed in the comments.
The biggest problem of electronics is not necessary the reliability; it is lack of understanding by manufacturers that customers brake the bank to purchase their dream bike or their mid-life crisis machine for thousands of euros. They will ride their new love for 1 or 2 years before losing interest or having big changes in their lives. This is than followed by a moment in time of rediscovering their love for race bikes 5-8 years later. Kids grown up, career in steady waters etc. Getting the dust of from that old love that was dumped in the garage under a blanket.
It is an abomination that people will figure out their 8 years old 5000 euro plus costing beauty cannot be restarted because the battery platform is discontinued or industry standard changed and parts are not available.
That is the moment your will appreciate analog gear.
Why even bother brand loyalty when they cannot support legacy systems and platforms (for a fair price)?
My "nice bike" has Di2 12 speed with disc brakes and is a fantastic ride, However, it comes out on warm, dry days only and I would NEVER sling it in a bike box to venture abroad. For holidays, I keep my "analogue" 2016 bike with mechanical Ultegra and rim brakes. That means fewer breakdowns, easy access to spares from any bike shop, no gas in the the hydraulics, no Di2 battery disappearing down the seat tube, no bent rotors, cheap to insure and probably 99% as rapid as my "nice bike". Horses for courses.
Completely agree, I run a 1x12 sram on a gravel bike and love it for all rides!
I would suggest that electronic shifting is accurate, and happily, for the manufacturer, cheaper to produce. Business is always reliant on profit and the accountants trump engineers. The SRAM adoption for me is complicated by the affinity of brake fluid for water. Mineral oil is less aggressive on paint and more suited to the cyclist's moist outdoor environment.
My head says Shimano Ultegra , 105 or GRX mechanical are probably the pinnacle of shifting bang for buck. Add to that my GRX has just gone 6000KM on one rear shifter cable. I think that's pretty good. Forget the battery.
I agree with you, there is just no point in getting 2x12 for the road, gravel, maybe, but road just no... You will get a system that is harder to setup , chains that last shorter, and all together more finicky crap.
Also, kudos for being one of the few channels in the world to mention Tiagra. Most journos say 105 is "working class" like wtf!!!!!
Tiagra is awesome
I think about to buy all 105 mech. parts i can get to have spare parts for the rest of my life...
Main reason I don’t like SRAM is because they use DOT brake fluid. There’s just no need for it, and it’s a nasty caustic water absorbing fluid. There are minor things to hate but that one is unforgivable.
True. I guess we are just so used it now.
Watching this later down the line, it’s sounds like it’s a relief that Shimano finally released a mechanical version of 12spd 105. Personally I’m happy enough with my old Tiagra 4600. The rear derailleur needed replacing this year, trickier because of different pull ratio on the newer Tiagra, so it’s not a straight replacement, but thankfully the bike shop had a an old 10 Speed Ultegra one lying around which they fixed up and fitted. Shifts great! I don’t want a £400 rear derailleur 😬
I don't have a problem with 12 speed. I don't want electronic. I have AXS on both of my MTBs. On my XC race bike, which I rarely ride, it's fine. Except I almost learned the hard way that the shifter battery doesn't last as long as I thought. But on my trail bike, I don't like it. I don't want to have to worry about a dead battery. I don't want to carry a spare on bigger rides (I killed one on a ride). I just want to be able to go ride it.
And that's my issue with electronics. I commute daily, I don't want another battery to charge. Bad enough with my headlight, tail light, and Garmin, but technically I don't need any of those to ride (and I have charged while riding with a battery pack). I considered getting a dyno hub to make life easier, but I also love the feel of my race bike every day (SuperSix Evo is fully slammed).
Oh well. Either a lower tier system, or Sram 😢
The best thing about 12 speed groupsets is that it means the suckers are unloading their perfectly awesome 11spd components. I don't think anyone not actually on the books of a race team is getting any quantifiable benefits of anything above Sora or Tiagra. Esp on road bikes. Roads are tame, no one needs all this bloated mess on their bikes. And more, none of us really benefit. "But my gear steps!!" Gear overlap says hi. But hey, I just snagged a pair of GRX 2x11 shifters, basically as new condition, for $200 and a pair of 105 calipers with about a month of use for $80. So everyone keep doing what you're doing. Meanwhile, I'm just going to flip the left shifter for $150 and find a decent used 810-LA and probably only be in the hole for about $100 once the dust settles.
It's great to hear opinions about Shimano from a real expert!
Would be nice to hear your opinion about SRAM Rival's long-term use?
Yes. Same for all of them.
First time viewer. Just subscribed, love your analysis. All this shifting stuff is getting too complicated and you were able to dumb it down nicely. Was contemplating a di2 for my Colnago C59….may hold off a bit as my 11speed Ultegra is perfectly fine!
Really interesting , thanks very much for the insight into Electronic shifting. I still fail to see what is wrong with 11 speed mechanical 105 when it is set up correctly but it is nice to hear these different points of view !
100% agree about the automatic shifting! If you are going to the expense & hassle of electronic shifting, then the way that it should actually improve the ride experience is to shift automatically so that you can pedal your preferred cadence. Just like automatic cars, it's also safer since you can just focus on your surroundings, but (as with cars) there is also an awful lot of gatekeeping around the old way of doing things!
I'm so happy with my 90s Shimano XT 8-speed 11-34 (CS HG41 for 15€) and 44-28 crank on my gravel bike. I've done epic rides with it!
Well done on keeping that going.
I'm in total agreement about the annoyance of having batteries in the shifters versus hard-wiring... especially if the battery is not a standard size. One of the downsides of modern cycling is that I have to charge lights, the computer, shifters, etc. To me, the fewer things I have to charge, the better... give me 1 plug for the components like 11 speed Di2 has, not 1 plug and an arsenal of special batteries.
I had a 46-30 grx crank and a grx 812 derailleur with a 11-42 cassette on my soloist, runs like a dream
I hope people listen and take to heart the points you make, they'll be better for it.
Quick production note: the past tense of troubleshoot is "troubleshat" hope this helps! 😁
Very helpful indeed 😊
Is digital gear shifting the end of vintage racing bikes?
Until a few years ago, I always took part in the OPEL cycling tour in Ruesselsheim in southern Hesse (Germany). There was also a vintage tour with OPEL bikes, production of which stopped in 1936. Will it still be possible in decades to ride current aero racing bikes with digital gears, internal disc brake cables and a lot of proprietary parts?
Excellent point. Look at the vintage stuff people are still riding. All the "aero" stuff that Shimano introduced in the mid-80s is incompatible with anything and there are very very few people out there who are "into" it and spares availability even on the second-hand market is atrocious. This is the future I predict for electronic shifting until a "standard to be followed" is determined.
Awesome content, at last a voice of reason in the ocean of shimano users with the case of upgradecitis.
Thank you Manny
Good point re 1x12sp. I started roadccling just at end of 9sp. 2x 11sp is sweet spot for me ,as good for my 34x32 smallest gear for the steep stuff. But for an average 2.5w/kg person even a 34x32 is too hard for many climbs over 8%, so I agree having smaller front ring options makes a lot of sense. Not much fun for a new cyclist struggling up a 10%+ hill at 40rpms!
Very true.
Nearly choked on my coffee when you priced a gear hanger at £20. Must be gold plated. I paid £1.50 for one from China.
(and before anyone says it will just break, it's supposed to)
Great videos by the way.
I love this channel.....one of the best! I was torn between Shimano and my favorite for last 15 years plus....SRAM. I chose to remain in the SRAM camp as I migrated to electronic wireless shifting as it is more intuitive for me. I have nothing against Shimano electronic other than with SRAM, you can carry extra batteries to switch out and Shimano uses a centralized single in-frame system. To each their own.
Thank you
I am an experienced bike mechanic and own my own small bike shop. I'm fortunate enough to be able to choose from anything on the market. I've just built myself a stunning new Cinelli Superstar road bike... What groupset have I used? 10 year old, used Sram Red 10 speed mechanical, rim brake. I think that says it all.
The lightest ever made. Those Yaw mechs though. Oh and the rear mech cages always snapped. Oh and the brake levers flexed. Other than that. Yeah. Best groupo of the 2010s
I use a power bank to charge my groupset.
Centaur. 12 up cassette. Job done. Also consider it took until 2017 for Beryl Burtons 12 hrs TT record of 1967 to be beaten, just. You don't need this stuff. Tiagra with a lighter chainset if you want Shimano. Hey, use a 105 rear mech, 11 speed chain and scrape the tiagra words off the levers for that extra Richmond Park cudos 😀😀
The things you see doing laps of Richmond 🫣
You can still run 10 speed di2 without any issue.
So,another 10 years we are good with 11s di2
Very true
And sram brakes we all know they are joke.shifting of axs are not in the same ballpark with shimano,especially 12 speed
That linux comparison, felt personal 😅
Even tho I dont use campag, was spot on
😅
I've not tried DI2, nor Sram AXS, but I use Archer D1X Trail, paddle remote.
they have a left handed version too.
The advantage of it is you can set it up to the speed I want, just make sure cassette and RD are compatible, you can use any mechanical RD. The app is easy to use, easy to set up and adjust each gear, change the setup. but you don't have to use the app to adjust each gear you can long press the button on the remote and and use the remote to adjust the position of each gear.
So in my opinion this is far superior. Charging is easy, take off the remote connect it to a charger or you computer, for the shifter you undo the cap, and use a magnet to get the batteries out, but the new faster batteries increased shifting speed by 50%, but battery life is short, but they drop out of the shifter easier, so tilting bike forward helps, they come out. I have spare batteries with me in my backpack.
I can adjust each gear, so when the RD gets sloppy and worn I can continue to use it longer. The remote is wireless. Ergonomics are great.
there is also remotes for drop bars: MFR Drop Bar Remote which are universal, but also DBR Remote which integrates into the TRP road brakes/shifters.
Interesting. Tonight’s google.
Made a final upgrade for my Supersix evo hi-mod 2017 rim brake : 11-speed Dura Ace and Hambini bb. Super happy with it.
Those were so light and stiff. Perfect bill climb bike.
Was recommended your vids by the RUclips algorithm and really enjoying them. It’s not just an egotistical rant, you really make a lot of sense and give out good info. Subscribed. 👍🏻
Thanks. Just to warn you, there are a couple of egotistical rants in the collection.
@@Mapdec well you’re an Englishman you’re allowed a rant here and there. 😁
I mean you’ve completely put me off buying the new shim Ulteg/Durace. 😳👍🏻
I'm really considering buying a couple of pairs of 105 11sp hydraulic shifters before they are all gone, I don't want to 'upgrade' to 12sp or to Di2, but I do want my bikes to be nice... Does this make me a retro grouch?
I think you have a few years yet.
Nope, that's a sensible choice. Di2 isn't a need for many.
My biggest problem with 105 DI2 is the brakes. They haven’t put the servowave tech in. Paying that high a premium but one of the biggest issue with brakes from previous versions you do t get. The extra cost would be so small it’s just a piss take. Same with the front Mech it’s just the 11 speed one rebadged. The cost difference is pretty small and after watching GC performances video on the difference with Ultegra isn’t that much really in weight. Seems they put heavier fittings to justify the weight and price difference.
Yes. It’s almost like they had to invent a way to make Ultegra the middle of the range.
@@Mapdec For sure. Missed the mark by a mile really. Could have blown SRAM out of the water if they made it cheaper than rival.
So basically it all boils down to the fact that electronic shifting is all hassle over hassle. Why is Shimano erasing the possibility of installing any type of groupset you like, just like Campagnolo does? I'm currently running a 1x system based on Campagnolo Chorus 12s and it's all brilliant!! Amazing and smooth shifting (mechanical, of course), and powerful braking (rim brakes). And it's way cheaper than Ultegra.
For as long as a mechanical rim braked Record group is actually cheaper than the mundane Ultegra, the decision for me is clear. I wouldn't want any of the new 12spd Shimano groups on my bike, and that comes from a 35 year huge Shimano fan. I've always run a top-end group from the generation behind, and find that the best cost v performance, never had an issue sourcing parts even on 15 year old stuff... DA mechanical 11spd is more desirable than any of the above, nowt wrong with cables and they don't need charging...
Yep. 👍
They do the lower gear option you mentioned in GRX. Obviously it's currently 11 speed but i'm sure a 12 speed version is in the works. I currently use the 48/31 on my gravel bike, which doubles up as a road bike with a different set of wheels.
Lots of riders are going this way.
totally agree on the 105.
Great content.
as an audioengineer I'd say: get some mobile acoustical panels to reduce the room reflections to the microphone.
Thanks. I’m giving that a google now.
Ranting? Not at all. I'm a huge Shimano fanboy... but I'm also a realist. Your Shimano critiques are 100%; they could have done a better but god damn they still make good equipment 😀👍
Sensah all the way, I had previously had elite 50mm carbon wheels,bought a Delihea fore carbon frame that had Sensah empire 11 speed mechanical and combined the lot. I had SRAM on PX bikes previously and the shifting is smooth and crisp.In total weighs 7. 9kg.The only issue is the jockey's weight! greetings from Ireland.can you do a sensah review, plus another chinese manufacturer LTWOO is doing a full hydraulic groupset for 200gbp, check china cycling.It all comes from Asia anyway!
Still riding mechanic ultegra 3x11. Fantastic range, small steps. Reliable working. Not going to change.
Definitely NOT an idiot mechanic...Cheers, Simon J.
I find it annoying that the new ultegra dt2 12speed does not offer an 11/36 cassette. When in the European mountains an extra bit of range makes a world of different during a alpine grand fondo. I've just bought a new specialised Aethos and going to see if it works with a 105 11/36 cassette. Also i totally agree that they should have created the charging port using a USBC.
The biggest improvement I’d like to see in group sets is… making them available in silver. So much has become black only, which is much less fun.
Whenever direct comparison is involved it's always going to divide opinions, that's natural. I do agree with most of it. I've been using Shimano since I can remember but the biggest disappointment came with Grx 2x11 where they wouldn't offer crank length below 170mm in 810 range. I somehow managed to solve my problem combining it with rotor but the alarm bells started ringing for me. I think they are beginning to lose their total domination; I think they are aware of it and I'm pretty sure there is not much they can do about it anymore (look 5-6 years back how many bikes came of the factory with SRAM vs how many You see nowadays). Would I choose Sram over Shimano? Maybe but I think AXS is a platform with much greater and faster improvement potential than Shimano even with current 12speed so I'm expecting things like automatic shifting based on cadence to be much likely to happen in AXS platform than Shimano.
One thing that I totally disagree though is raising the argument of the system brain being stored in the rear derailleur and prone to expensive repair/replacement in the cause of crash. Yes it's true but it's true for BOTH Shimano and SRAM and for some strange reason it's being identified as a biggest CON against Shimano and not even part of the conversations in case of SRAM - strange... to me at least.
Interesting analogy with the IT world and very correct as well. In the IT hardware world which is my daily playground the Good Better Best has been the strategy since day one but interestingly some time ago market has seen a switch to a two-step strategy rather than 3. We see the value for money customer and then we see the performance-oriented customer. The prosumer/enthusiast customers have slowly started to disappear to the point where it was no longer feasable to maintain. I honestly believe with 12 speed and electronic shifting it would be absolutely enough if they only kept 105 and dropped the pricing for Dura-ace slightly to please the rich customer. After all Dura-Ace is nothing but the cash cow for Shimano.
Good material. Keep on with providing a great content. I'm a big fan.
Thank you. You are right on the rear mech point.
Agree on the 2 tier point. MCW also mentioned in the vid that Ultegra 12sp is a bit underwhelming compared to the 105. I have the R8000, but now that SHIMANO have discontinued the 53/39 option for Ultegra I can’t see the point of it anymore. Why would you pay extra over 105 di2, especially when the weights are so similar…maybe Ultegra will be discontinued after this iteration?
I'm pretty sure you know by now (I'm only 11 months late to this party!), but you don't *need* a new PCE02 for 12-speed Di2... just the EW-AD305 adapter or the (crazily expensive new SD300 type link cable). The 'new' PCE02 itself is identical to the one we've been using for years :).
Great video either way!
At the time we made this we only had the instructions to go on.
@@Mapdec what, one year after 12-speed Ultegra and DA release? :) The info was definitely there, also in the Shimano docs…. just spread out over 10 different files. 💩
…That’s why my instructions are better than Shimano’s, easier to read for time-crunched mechanics and users :)