Street Epistemology: Kyle (3) | Obey My God or Stay Away
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- Опубликовано: 22 сен 2015
- San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 22 September 2015
Uploaded: 23 September 2015
Twitter: / magnabosco
Facebook: / magnabosco210
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My third encounter with Kyle allowed us to discuss-among many other topics-the recent hesitancy of Chi Alpha members to spend a few minutes chatting with me about their God beliefs.
The purpose of this talk was NOT to unpack Kyle's deeply-held God beliefs using SE, but rather to understand why members of his group were avoiding me, which is why I let many of his claims go at this time.
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Mistakes:
I'm kicking myself for not asking if Kyle has/will warn the leaders of the other on-campus religious groups like the Muslim Student Association or the Hindu Society and advise their members to avoid speaking with me.
Please let me know if you notice any mistakes so that I can address them here for self-improvement.
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The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
I already did his 60 day experiment for 22 years. It didn't work.
That is exactly the point!!! Kyle is just still doing his experiment at whatever age he is!
I tried that when i was about 35. I figured if God is real I should really make an effort to try. I prayed every night, asked for a sign every night, nothing in my life changed, no signs received.
Undoubtedly, some of the most fractured and anxious people will likely succumb to the veiled self-hypnotism which would be such an "experiment." Other types of people too. Hopefully, they do the "experiment" with all religions and philosophies they can think of.
Me too 30 + years. 8 years hardcore
25 years for me. I thought it worked for most of it, but somewhere around the 25th year mark I realized it didn't take.
Early on I was reminded of Richard Feynman's quote: "“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.”
Thanks for this quote! Feynman was such an amazing guy and still never fails to inspire.
Not into quotes or anything, except for a few, but this was well said by Feynman, didn't know he had said that.
@@noobinator9854 I am sure I have seen Feynman saying that in an interview but the quote did not originate from him. The source is anonymous and the whole quote is, "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."
Love that one! Posted the quote meme many times!
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vdsa 43asdfas
I can summarize Kyle's stance pretty accurately, and succinctly:
Kyle does not want people to speak to Anthony until they've been sufficiently indoctrinated.
Makes sense.
Gotta love Christian metaphors. "There are shepherds and there are wolves." And they both eat the sheep.
Yes they do...maybe the Shepard’s are the wolves in sheep’s clothing , getting their sheep to trust and follow them... then when they are done getting all the money they can from the wool (coverts & $$$) they produce--- they give their last breath to the Shepard when he slaughters them for his dinner!!! 😢
Sure, but not before they fleece them. And some of the shepherds love their flock much too much.
@@aaronmatzkin7966 so do some shepherds. Lol
@@uthinkiamhot exactly 😉
@@aaronmatzkin7966 wait, I said that wrong, but yeah... we know what you mean. 💒❤🐑
I like how he advises you to just put aside all of your doubts and just believe in God for sixty days, but he wont put aside his own doubts about you to believe your motives for twenty minutes
good eye
At the core it's fear.
It is factually accurate that religious people are less intelligent...so it's a mix of fear and ignorance with a dose of lacking the mental capacity to comprehend questioning his own beliefs...
@@maxmorrill3808wrong, they arent stupid, thinking they are stupid is too easy, they have just been convinced by a trick, anyone can be tricked by a good magician/illusionist
4 out of 5 walking away from the faith after college to me sounds like progress.
thankfully we are getting a bit more wise to charlatans
@@MrUnlimitedTorque What do you mean by "the leftist religion"? If you mean politically liberal, then atheists are 50% more likely than the general public to identify as a Democrat, but about 1 out of 3 atheists identify as Republicans or Independents, so there are still tons of conservatives, libertarians, and politically unaffiliated people among the population of atheists. Or to put it a different way, our lives, relationships, and political beliefs are not defined by our lack of belief in people's various claims about deities. Painting atheists with such a broad brush is simply inaccurate and can come across as bigoted.
(Data taken from the 2008-2014 Pew Research Center study, "U.S. religious groups and their political leanings", published 2/23/2016)
@@MrUnlimitedTorque I hear that you believe that social justice is an alternate faith to theism and that these people are not productive. Would it change your mind if I you were to discover that some of the most hard core social justice activists I know are ministers and it's their faith that motivates them? Would It change your mind if you were discover that many productive people are really passionate about social justice, and some of the least productive people are against social justice?
@@PennyDreadful2024
Mrlimitedbrainpower has avoided reality and 'left' the chat.
@@MrUnlimitedTorque I didn't say that you said atheists are bad people. I pointed out the error in your use of a broad brush to paint atheists as leftists. It's unfortunate that you see education as an indoctrination, but you're right about the result of education on religion. The more a person learns about reality, the less likely they are to hold on to outdated religious beliefs.
Now, if you want to argue that some social movements have become unhinged from reason and reality, then yes, there are some problematic irrationalities going on across many college campuses, but that has little or nothing to do with whether or not some college students are becoming atheists.
"Don't talk to that guy!, he makes you think!, We don't want you to think!"
There's a lot of anger in that man.
Yeah, full anger and other stuff.
Based on what evidence, EXACTLY?
@@TheWorldTeacher Well for one, you are passive-AGGRESIVELY defending him for barely any reason. Do you hate anger that much? Being full of hate and aversion is no good. Psychologically, one might even say that you are "IDENTIFYING" with the guy as the fuel for your motivation to lawyer for him and against the O.P.'s accusation. I'm guessing the O.P. 1 year ago judged him as very angry due to his perception of the guy's verbal and non-verbal cues: tone, conversational context, word choice, syntax, along with demeanor, facial countenance, bodily gestures, etc. I watched this video a while ago and it was suggested to me by the RUclips algorithm. But the two vain methods of the false religions/spirituality: "believing/faith in order to believe" and "lying to yourself long enough to start believing" are no good for achieving better alignment of thought/imagination/idea with the objective/truth/existence.
@@letsomethingshine, that is rather PRESUMPTUOUS of you, wouldn’t you agree, Slave?
Presumption is evil, because when one is PRESUMPTUOUS, one makes a judgement about a matter, despite having insufficient facts to support one’s position.
@@TheWorldTeacher based on those rowdy kids
It's amazing how often theists will tell you what you are thinking or what you "really" believe.
Exactly! They're not mind readers, they just want to impose how they feel onto you so their script works.
Statists tend to do that as well...and Statism is the most dangerous religion.
It’s infuriating
When they say things like that I realy want to sacrifice them to Nurgel. Corona isn't even cluse to what he is going to give them in present.... Ha ha! :)
He know what we think apparently
It truly is fantastic how scared they are becoming of you. They don't understand how revealing this is.
"You have enemies? Why, it is the story of every man who has done a great deed or created a new idea. "
-Villemain, Victor Hugo.
I think Kyle himself is scared of his own, faulty beliefs....
They need a hug!
I would say it's because someone who's never really questioned their belief, to begin with, is vulnerable to influence---they have no real foundation.
And as a believer, that's what I like about this channel. You SHOULD question...especially if you were just raised in it.
(ex. If I was raised satanic, should I just stay that way just because?)
“Anthony has an Agenda “
Says the man in the trust Jesus t shirt
Y'all keep acting like there is something bad about what he said
What are you trying to say with this message?
Vladislav Derbenev
Who me ?
@@mickqQ yes. I see that you are pointing out, that someone who is wearing a tshirt with religious message saying that someone else has an agenda, right? Are you just stating a fact, or is it a humor remark?
Vladislav Derbenev
Both
It’s a fact and humorous 😁
5:48 Anthony: "So, fake it till you make it?"
Kyle: "No, no. Not that. Just pray to God as if he was real."
Does Kyle even hear himself?
No. He only hears what he thinks he said.
he does hear 'himself' and 'himself' just sounds like god to him.
Kyle's Method: "if you tell [YOURSELF] a lie long enough, you might start believing it yourself."
@@turboguppy3748 Then I wonder what he thought he said, because no matter how I twist it, it doesn´t boil down to a logical statement.
@@hermaeusmora424 me too.
A Christan telling someone that they are not interested in seeking "the truth" and only wants to confirm their preconceived notions about reality...
The projection is strong in this one...
Exactly what I thought.
Hey! You got to keep an open mind my friend LOL
Yeah, Kyle psychoanalyzed Anthony... He asserts god, but is closed to any other explanation.
You did a wonderful job of exposing his lack of flexible thinking. In essence it boils down to "if you are seeking the truth and come to agree with my world view, you were sincere. If you are seeking the truth and you don't end up agreeing with me, you weren't sincere". The sheer arrogance of that position, and his apparent blindness to it, are staggering and yet all too common.
+GodlessRN Very nicely summarized.
+Anthony Magnabosco I think you hit the nail on the head when you asked him if the questions you were asking frightened him so bad... He probably still has doubt himself and knows many people that go into an intelligent environment like college and receives empirical data disproving most of what religions teach. He would rather completely shut out rational thinking to prevent doubt from ever working its way in.. and pushes that same mind set off on the people he preaches to. He's is probably intimidated by the fact that you use the approach that you do. because it can respectfully sow doubt into believers minds and make them question why they believe in the first place. Keep up the good work.
+GodlessRN If you seek the truth and find Jesus, you were sincere.
Thank you for your comment, I appreciate the time you took to write it.
Claiming there is an agenda for non-believers is accurate. That agenda, I imagine, varies from person to person. A Muslim's agenda in not being a Christian would be different to a Hindu's or an atheists. I can only speak for myself, in that I want to believe what is rationally justifiable to believe. As a nurse, if there are treatments that are ineffective, I want to know that. If there are more effective therapies I want to know that. To determine which is which requires repeatable, demonstrable evidence. Assertions are not enough.
Take the existence of life, to use the first of your examples. I agree, it is amazing. But to say, it is amazing does not prove a god. Saying "it is amazing, therefor god" is an assertion, not evidence. It is no different to a drug company saying "use this drug, it is amazing". The medical community would need to see appropriately controlled trials with large numbers of patients, specified outcomes, identified limitations, etc. before it widely accepts a new drug as beneficial. This is because they genuinely (for the most part) care about their patients and want them to do better, and they won't risk hurting them on empty assertions. Please provide something even remotely like that for god, and I will review it.
This idea that we have one short life in order to identify the one god from a myriad of options, including other god beliefs, non-belief, non-god based spiritual beliefs, etc. does not seem reasonable to me. As far as free will, god seems to value the free will of the cruel over the free will of the victims of their cruelty. In fact, if a god existed, he appears far more concerned that an "evil" act is allowed to happen, than the free will of the victim not to be hurt or destroyed by it. This is one tiny corner of my objections to Christianity, but you brought it up.
As far as the many people converting to Christianity, that is true. There are also many leaving it, and many people joining other religions. Christianity has a tempting story (at first glance) and a practiced sales pitch, so is tempting to folks who are looking for a place to land. This does not make it true, simply appealing. There are many things that are appealing, but not beneficial, one only has to look at substance abuse rates to see that.
I don't know if there really is a god. That is an honest answer. I don't see enough good reasons to think there is one. That is also an honest answer. Give me enough good reasons that are not empty assertions (such as "this is mysterious so god must have done it") or emptier threats about an eternity I can't tell if I even have. It does not even have to be something I can see or hear. Even a seemingly rational, logical argument would at least cause me to reconsider. Simply saying "seek and ye shall find" is pointless. I did seek. For years. I found nothing. Simply stating I should have sought harder, or with more faith etc. is an insult to the time and effort I did put in. Assertions that I could only have sought sincerely if I end up agreeing with you make you sound dishonest, not so much to me, but to yourself. Anyone can believe anything if they are never doubt they are right and unwilling to test to see if they might be wrong.
So, if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is I should believe it because other people believe it? That unlikely events cannot be coincidences? Also that belief does not have to be rational because god is above logic?
Well done for staying calm in the face of Kyle's increasing agitation. That takes a lot of discipline.
"Four out of five college students will leave the faith."
They will have better lives for it.
🍃🌴🌷🌴🌿
👍
This is why Christian parents want their kids to go to Christian colleges, or not get properly educated at all. Actually those last two statements were the same.
I totally agree with your sentiments BUT I have to disagree with the specifics.
Leaving faith does not guarantee a better life. Many people leave with this idea and fall victim to isolation, anxiety and depression. Some of them recover, some don’t.
People should know that they CAN have a better life post-faith but they will, in all likelihood, have to work for it.
While I don’t think that faith is necessary for most people to be fulfilled, I do think that most people need meaningful relationships with family and/or community in order to thrive and be fulfilled. There are exceptions but you probably aren’t one.
Unfortunately, with the abandonment of faith, relationships with loved ones can become strained and if you don’t have a good social network, you’ll be in big trouble.
If you are ready to abandon your faith, you should prepare yourself for success.
Unfortunately some of them won't because they'll be shunned by their communities and even families for leaving the cult.
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vdsa 43asdfa
“You spend hours with these people, I spend 5-10 minutes. Are my questions that threatening to you?”
He took a big step back after that question, and began to ramble on about baby/ toddler Christians. It was really quite fascinating.
Because the answer is yes. 10 minutes of logic is very threatening to years of mythology.
No wonder he's telling people not to talk to you, you're wrecking 3 years of work in 5 minutes. Cheers for the patience and focus, learned much with this one.
That's how much time he needs to fully indoctrinate and emotionally manipulate his "flock".
religious nuts have a way of doing that... had some mormons trying to hand me their holy book on my doorstep last nignt... they suddenly ran out of time when I mentioned that the story of Lucifer is just a plagiarized version of Prometheus, and Prometheus is my hero. Specifically mentioned they dont want to give me their book if im just going to "use it to argue"... if the book is true then why would I need to pick it apart and argue? And wouldnt a true text stand up to scrutiny? I call BS he doesnt want to give me the book because it has glaring innacuracies and vague claims that make his position look absolutely ridiculous.
@@wabbajackwabbajack6932 I think Mormons believe in dark magic, I could be thinking of Jehovah's witnesses here, so I could be wrong, but I remember watching a video about one of these groups from an ex-believer speaking about how they believe that objects can be cursed with dark magic, and if you get objects from people you can cast dark magic on the previous owner, so maybe they didn't want to give you the book because they didn't want you to cast dark magic on the book and curse them.
Just a speculation..an outrageous one, but some of these superstitions are outrageous
@@trybunt How odd.
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vds adfa
You had a lot more patience with this man than I could have had. Kudos.
This is honestly the best example I've seen of staying true to the methodology of gently questioning someone. There are so many moments where Kyle contradicted himself and Anthony could've conversationally bodyslammed him, but instead thought about a way to bring about a thought-provoking question. This is true discipline in practice.
Thanks. That's really kind of you to say. If I recall, as I was walking away, I blew up into a whole tirade to the livestream audience. Maybe one day I'll upload the video. Had to vent. It was so challenging.
@@magnabosco210 No thank you, honestly. We're all human, and you're frustration is totally understandable. I was raised by the same mode of thinking that Kyle is preaching, and it's mindblowing to see this way of dealing with it. It's literally a paradigm shift lol! You're setting an incredible example for anyone willing to watch! Thank you sir!
The arrogance of these people never ceases to amaze me.
It is astonishing that they display the simultaneous characteristics of arrogance and ignorance and dress it all up as humility and love.
I noticed a lot of projecting. Such as the common example of you must have faith to believe in evolution, the weird thing is when they say that it sounds like they are saying faith is a bad thing.
I've seen Christians double down against faith, as if it was worst thing you could possibly do when they are talking about YOUR faith in "evolution", (when they don't know what evolution is or what it says) but when it comes to their faith in god, its the best thing they've ever done.
This is after they've admitted that faith is not reliable and that it can lead you to any conclusion you want it too.
Their cognitive dissonance is amazing.
Paul Vair Exactly
Arrogant how so?
"These college professors assault their untested faith"
College professors provide facts....if hearing facts make you change your worldview then that is good
Step 1 "Obey"
Step 2 "Pretend"
Step 3 let's get 10% off your income
Step 4 🤦♂️
Honestly I think the most important question you asked was at 24:46, and it's a shame that Kyle just completely diverted.
Anthony: _"*If the belief isn't true* ... how would you ever discover it if you weren't willing to answer some of the general, respectful questions that I pose to people?"_
Kyle: _"I'm trying to answer all your questions."_
In the moment it seems like a reasonable answer, but it completely avoids the question that was asked, and it's the one question that I think cuts straight to the core of the issue here.
Belief-Breaker type questions ain't easy to answer🤯
When Kyle says "Obey God", he really means "Obey me, your Chi Alpha leader, and better knower of the Truth, the Way, and the Life than you newbie believer". In other words, Kyle's personal status, power, control and influence over Chi Alpha members, is directly threatened by Anthony. Kyle's cult-like language points to why he is so pissed off by Anthony's mere presence. Keep it up Anthony!
so he advises people to avoid all other agendas except for his own?
Seems legit.
Obedience; Control; Indoctrination; Division; Arrogance.
Gross.
Thank you, Anthony, for all you do.
The more educated a person becomes, the less likely they can be controlled.
This is a classic case of a nobody who climbed the cult ladder by influencing young people, and is now unwilling to give up his perceived position of power. He even went so far as to refer to himself as "the overseer." No amount of evidence or reason will ever knock him off his perch because that would require him to actually examine his ridiculous position. I don't see christians acting any more unselfishly than anyone else on this planet. What is this clown talking about?
He's an overweight red head that hides his face because he's unattractive. What else does he have going for him if not a pseudo leader of a cult seeking to brain wash impressionable youth? Not so much.
@@ellea3344 How is his appearance of any relevance for the points he is making?
That's an ad hominem fallacy right there.
DerDuke1981 Because he's an idiot, and it's reflected in his appearance. Hiding behind his giant black shirt and giant beard in the middle of summer in TX. And, because it's not a logical fallacy. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Nice try kiddo. Stay in school.
@@ellea3344 Yeah you just have proven my point. You don't even know what Ad hominem is. Attacking a person's character or appearance is not a valid argument. Neither against Kyle, nor me.
DerDuke1981 An Ad hominem is an informal fallacy, I never disputed that, but it is not a logical fallacy, which you fail to understand, even after I spelled it out for you. You just DEMONSTRATED that YOU don't know what you're talking about, likely just learned what logic is and what fallacies are, and decided to go into the youtube comment section to try and correct people to make yourself feel smart. It did not go well for you. I now have evidence that you are quite ignorant, dare I say, smugnorant.
His cloths and appearance are a metaphor for the EVIDENCE, that he is spewing superstitious bullshit to strangers, telling people not to speak to Anthony, talking over Anthony ad nauseam, and sees himself (in his own words) as an "overseer" (his word, not mine, so not ad hominem), having authority over his sheep (the words Christians use to describe themselves, again, NOT an ad hominem) in his cult.
If you don't like my generalizations about his appearance, perhaps join the military, become a Human Intelligence Collector/Interrogator, serve at least a decade, and with those life experiences combined with knowledge and understanding of the nature and psychology of humans, then watch this video and let me know how you would describe his appearance in relation to what he says. That will be the test to see whether my description of his appearance reflecting perfectly and ironically his attitude, is a logical fallacy, or merely an ad hominem which accurately describes this red-bearded doe-boy as a ridiculous, insecure loser.
Work on that reading comprehension, instead of fixating on this Latin word you just learned and decided to use in a sentence.
i feel bad for Kyle. I think his defensive attitude comes from fear, not "absolute "truth. I wish he could realize this.
Think about all the people he is helping live a lie and perpetuate the ignorance that religion provides. I do not feel sorry for him. I would love to see him change and realize he is full of crap, but the harm he is doing to others makes me less empathetic towards him.
Fear, and insecurity. His giant, "slimming" black T-shirt and beard are physical security blankets, and his religion is an intangible one.
I don’t feel bad for him! His church probably strokes his fragile ego so he hits the streets like he’s Jesus incarnate.. he’ll never change his mind now, as long as he has this small amount of power.
Funny you should mention 'fear' with Kyle. That was EXACTLY what I was getting from him. he has been indoctrinated to believe, and I think he may have doubts, or is at least considering the foundations of his belief. I am wondering if his evangelising is to help bolster his belief and try to offset the discomfort he is feeling.
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?ds a43asdfasdf a
8:52: "Revelation only comes through obedience"?
Well, I guess we can just disregard all of Saul/Paul's writings, because he wasn't being "obedient" on the road to Damascus.
Mad, mad respect to Anthony. The threats, pretending to know your motives, and the condescending tone on this dude, I was livid just watching!
If you are only allowed to talk to people who are experienced Christians please ask this guy to only talk to people who have been staunch atheists for at least 3 years. Honestly: He obviously doesn't see the irony that especially religious groups try to get the immature persons who haven't settled on a consistent and well thought through worldview yet. Ideally they want your kids because they are the most vulnerable!
+Holger K. von Jouanne-Diedrich This. Couldn't agree more. That's ecactly how indoctrination works.
"If you think that your belief is based upon reason, you will support it by argument, rather than by persecution, and will abandon it if the argument goes against you. But if your belief is based on faith, you will realize that argument is useless, and will therefore resort to force either in the form of persecution or by stunting and distorting the minds of the young in what is called "education".... This last is particularly dastardly, since it takes advantage of the defencelessness of immature minds." Bertrand Russell
Yeah, If Anthony was truly trying to dissuade people from God or the truth, he would say not to talk to Christians. But Anthony encourages everyone to talk to all religions.
Kool
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vd safa
It takes 3 years worth of indoct- errrr "education" before somebody can handle a 5 minute conversation with you.
I find it incredibly impressive how well you stay on topic Anthony and don't let him sidetrack you!
Still, even if not "prepared spiritually," they do have minds, opinions and reasons to believe that may or not came from the same place as experienced believers.
Spot on
It's quite easy when you know what to listen for. Any time a religious person inserts "jesus/alla/god...", you simply push pause on your brain, wait for the explosive diarrhea to pass, and then repeat what you were going to say or ask before that unfortunate outburst.
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vd sa34asdfa
9:12 Kyle: "All of creation has testified about God and his invisible attributes, and they're clearly seen."
*enhance:* God and his invisible attributes are clearly seen.
*enhance:* INVISIBLE attributes. CLEARLY seen.
If Kyle's god wanted me to obey him, he should've sent a smarter messenger.
Hale ol' powerful Invisibleneas
lmao, i doesn't seen this one thx dude
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?v dsdas
Romans 1:19-20 KJV
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest l in m them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; n so that they are without excuse: …
@@abdigirmae1204, ah yes.
I'm all too familiar with this passage, unfortunately.
Just because you can quote a couple Bible verses that dress up the exact same concept, only using a bunch of flowery old-timey language, does not make said concept any more sensical, intelligent, or true.
"Clearly," the "invisible" things of "God" are not "clearly" "seen."
Nor are they "understood" by the things that are "made" (us).
Because, "clearly," he (God) "hath" not "shewed" that which may be "known" about himself.
No, not even his supposed "eternal" "power" and "godhead."
(Holy ironic quotation marks, Batman!)
Because if he "hadeth," billions of people around the world wouldn't practice any of the world's many non-Christian faiths.
Or no faith at all.
Give me a break.
Accusing someone of having an agenda while having an agenda.
love the bit when Kyle talks about shepherds and wolves... I remember well how predatory the Christian Union was at my college, with all those vulnerable home-sick students. All Anthony is doing, is asking questions. And the Christian group loses its shit. Very revealing.
Four out of five college students don't go back to attending church? I don't see a problem from where I'm standing. ;-)
It didn't take college for me. A military chaplain cleared up the ruse quite nicely for me in a matter of minutes. They are school councilors in camouflage.
I love the ~14 second pause at 22:01 followed by the impeccably delivered response. Perfect!
why was there a14 second pause?
@@PresbianTier For one thing, it gave time for Kyle's high intensity memes to dissipate in both their minds and ours without new ones being triggered, thinking to happen in the mind of Anthony, and Anthony to use a slow, calm and hence powerful delivery to try to set a new and better (better in the sense it was truth seeking rather than regurgitation of canned memes) direction for them both (and us) to go in.
As one who is seeking real truth, Kyle makes me sick to be of the same species. His way is the only way, nothing can be questioned and honesty can only be experienced by Christians of his flavor.
so basically this guy needs ample amount of time to indoctrinate people so deeply that their rationality is circumvented
These are my exact thoughts. It's scary how people have the audacity to act like that, just because they are personally convinced that people need "saving". Makes my skin crawl.
"God won't talk to you if you're not obeying him."
Saul of Tarsus.
Pick one.
My thought exactly.
Beautiful
Remember that time God came down to talk to Adam and Eve because they weren't obeying him?
The exception that proves the rule, apparently.
There is an example for everything and they pick and choose whatever fits their narrative at that time. They are incapable of understanding or acknowledging these discrepancies and contradictions. Unfortunately their victims are incapable as well, and will in turn victimize others.
I find it sad that creationists always think evolution is random chance
The biggest enemy of religion is just a person asking questions
J Mile Ya, that’s why nuns use to smack your hands with a ruler for asking difficult question.
Watching this makes me want to have a "THRUST JESUS" t-shirt made.
Loren Clark that took me a second😉
Loren Clark 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Kyle is so afraid. He approaches belligerence many times in this video. Obedience has meant so much in his life he is afraid to not be... sad that his mind is so deeply infected.
sunk cost fallacy!
Yes, you used the right word ‘infected.’ Religion is a debilitating communicable disease called 'godnoisis,' passed on from one generation to another. It is so sad to see people inflicted with godnosis. They can’t think for themselves; they fear an imaginary entity that can send them to an eternity of torment if they don't believe, and they spend their lives in vain trying to get other people to believe like they do to support their irrational belief. Those inflicted with religion are infected with conceptual insanity. We should feel sad for them and try to treat them with rationality...
Anthony I applaud your patience and conversation skills!
So many fallacies and falsehoods to unpack with Kyle; my thoughts on a few of them:
1. Deflection-If Kyle was trying to evangelise to a devout follower of another faith, wouldn't he too want them to examine their faith to see if they have arrived at the "correct god"?
2. Of course cognitive dissonance will develop, because for an evidence-based, truth-seeking, rational-minded, intellectually-honest individual, faith, by definition, is not compatible!
3. Circular logic-you won't believe in god unless you obey him; but how can I obey someone I don't believe in!
4. Strawman! No-one is saying "all of this" came about from random chance; see: natural selection!
5. The gospels are not eye-witness testimonies (scholarly consensus-yes this includes theists), and were written by anonymous authors up to several generations after the purported events took place; see: historicity of Jesus!
You're incorrect about number five.
“You have to understand, based on the things that I believe without evidence, you are my enemy.”
A "newbie" to the faith isn't equipped to withstand rational, reasonable discourse? Best f~ing news I've heard all day.
Find a very large boulder. Chisel in the word, "OBEY". Now try to have a conversation with this rock. You will find that it will be less stressful and more coherent than the one you had with Kyle.
I love listening to these street preachers constantly talk themselves into a corner, and then show they're completely unable to reason their way out.
If challenging your beliefs makes you uncomfortable, you probably arrived at your conclusion on bad evidence. Maybe even none at all.
Him: "I think you have this disingenuousness, this bitterness--"
"Would I be justified in being bitter if I were truly NOT being disingenuous but somebody kept insisting that I were...?"
2nd Thought: "If your new converts aren't prepared to defend the faith, how are they qualified to accept it...?"
"you're not convinced? Oh well you're not genuine and you just don't want to know the truth." That really says so much about their position.
I'm going to put my personal testimony in as well (since Christians often use that as proof).
Was a Christian since 2002, became active volunteer in a few ministries, taught kids the gospel every Sunday, brought in new believers, invited people on my birthday to come to church (I considered it a gift for me if they don't have one)
Read the bible every day like clockwork every 6-7am. It was my favorite part of the say.
But that last part ultimately was the key to unlocking my doubts. It only started with one contradictory verse that didn't made sense but I brushed it off.
But over the years the doubts slowly grew bigger. It didn't disappear. One verse became two. The shaky ground my faith stood in didn't grow strong.
In my crisis of belief, even talked to pastors for guidance, even Christian apologists I was friends with, prayed to God to give me strength (or if not, just a sign), to continue believing.
Sometimes I even prayed to have enough faith in my sleep.
One day in the mid 2010s, I just woke up realizing I don't truly believe in it anymore. Even the social and economical cost to me of losing my friends, my network, my personal investment in time, the disappointment of my peers, my Christian mentors, wasn't enough for me to hold on to a belief I truly believed was lacking and wasn't any better than any other religion.
If that wasn't enough of an "obedience experiment", then I don't know what is.
my highest respect for your calm manner and your thoughtful questioning technique
"My wife twisted her knee trying to navigate my pretzel-like logic."
This is like next level street epistemology. You found the boss level. lol
Nah. Mini half way boss at best.
@@nicholas3354 if you are a skeptic and epistemologist as you claim, you won't be afraid of going through the method of which you are quick to denigrate, so I'll go ahead and give it a shot (and I'd be honored to get a shot at the final boss :). And keep in mind, I'm not going to engage you on debates of whether socrates or plato or humanity are in the cave. That's not what this is about. What is it you believe (a brief synopsis of the dogma you ascribe to)? How confident are you in that belief on a scale of 0 to 4 where 0 is all doubt no certainty and 4 is complete knowledge without question? Presumably, at one point in your life you did not believe and then at another point you did believe. By what mechanism were you moved from nonbelief to belief (top 3 if there is a list of things)? Also, I would like to establish some baselines so we can know we are not wasting each other's time. Do you want to believe more things that are true and less things that are untrue? Keep in mind, if the answer to this is no, we have no reason to continue the conversation. This approach is only for people that can agree they want to believe true things.
@@nicholas3354 I'm cool with whatever works for you. if you want to answer them piecemeal that works or if you want to do them all at once that's cool too. So to summarize the questions on the table are these:
1) What is it you believe.
2) How confident are you in that belief.
3) By what mechanism did you go from disbelief to belief. If this is multifaceted, I would ask you if possible to try your best to quantify which reason is the most important.
A couple other things: it would expedite the process if you provided your definitions to any abstract concepts you cite, such as faith etc. If I'm not following, I'll ask for clarification. Secondly, we will end this conversation at some point and at that time I will pose a challange to you. In the spirit of fairness and my desire to seek truth you can also issue me a challenge of which I pledge to take seriously.
Really looking forward to the discussion.
@@nicholas3354 I'm going to do my best to summarize what you said. To be quite honest it was quite difficult to follow, but I'll give it a shot.
Claims:
1) Jesus is God and worthy of full trust.
2) There is one truth.
3) The Bible is literally true as written in Greek and Hebrew, and is a source of true wisdom.
4) Spiritual reality is more real than physical reality.
Needs clarification:
1) There are many instances in your thesis where you use the word ‘spirit’ or a derivative of this word. I’m going to need further clarification on some of these topics as I have no context or experience with them:
a. Spiritual truth
b. Spiritual Reality
c. Spiritual symbolism - I think what you are saying is the distinction between symbolism and metaphor is while metaphor is a comparison between two unassociated objects, symbolism is a literal comparison where the two objects are literally what they are said to be. Jesus is a vine which is not a metaphor. Jesus is actually a vine. What I am not getting is what the qualifier ‘spiritual’ has to do with this idea. Also, how do you get away from the idea of metaphor here? If I were to actually take this literally, I would be saying Jesus is a green leafy plant that grows on the side of lattice work fences. The idea of a vine being something spiritual is a metaphor. Frankly, I don’t see this as lying. This is simply a limitation of human written and spoken communication. Sometimes in order to illustrate complex ideas, we need to resort to these types of comparisons to help others understand.
d. Spiritual birth
e. Spiritual death
2) I don’t think you actually made a distinction between historicity and non-historicity. Please word it this way (as I did above to highlight your distinction between metaphor and symbolism): While historicity is X, non-historicity is Y. this will provide a clear distinction.
3) Please define what trustworthiness means to you.
4) This statement makes no sense to me; I see it as a complete non sequitur: ‘The most likely source of existence is ultimate purpose.’ To me source of existence has no relationship with purpose in the way you have phrased it. Perhaps purpose is something gained by understanding the source of existence? Not sure, so I’m hoping you can clarify.
Mechanism for belief:
It sounds like you are at complete and total belief of the claims outlined above and you have reached 100% knowledge of these claims based on a profound personal experience of which you call spiritual rebirth and other experiences you have had since then that align perfectly with your belief of the scriptures which contain ‘true wisdom’. Is this a fair assessment?
Before we continue, I would like to do a thought experiment again to establish baselines (it’s the same one Anthony does is some of his videos so you may have heard it already). I have a box of tic-tacs. I think we would both concede the number of tic-tacs in the box is either odd or even but not neither or both. This represents a true binary choice. If I looked at the box of tic-tacs and said I believe the number of tic-tacs to be odd without any further investigation, how certain should I be of my belief? If the tic-tacs were removed from the box and counted by 10 people all of which counted 36 tic-tacs and yet I still believed the number of tic-tacs to be odd, how certain should I be of my belief? Is there any way for my belief to be true and the number of tic-tacs to be odd?
If the number of tic-tacs were to have been 37, should I then conclude that my method by which I came to believe the number of tic-tacs were odd is a reliable method to arrive at the truth? if it is not, what is the best way to gain knowledge of the number of tic-tacs in the box?
@@nicholas3354I don't want to get too far down a rabbit hole here as you have talked about a great many things, so if you don't mind, I'm going to focus on what you've said here. You can disregard other clarifications I've asked for for now.
I'm hung up on your line of 'I don't believe history, except for in scripture, nor do I disbelieve most history. First, how can you not believe history but not disbelieve most history at the same time? Those sentiments seem incongruous. It sounds as though you ascribe 100% confidence to the biblical scripture. By what mechanism do you gain this confidence?
6:43-8:17 Such a beautiful well articulated response. Well done sir!
The whole concept of “don’t question it, just do it” is so scary for me
You have the patience of a (secular) saint, Anthony. No pun intended.
What would the pun even have been lol
maybe a knight?
It's just fascinating to watch you be so patient with these people. I will not tolerate for very long someone telling me what I think and believe, and if they continue doing it I will let them know that they are being extremely condescending. You're interested in having a conversation despite that, so you're willing to tolerate it.
Yeah, getting riled up because he is repeatedly misrepresenting me wouldn't help either of us. Better to stay focused, listen, repeat back, question, and repeat.
yea i think deep down he wishes anthony would have gotten mad at him. it would have helped him to justify his actions. and given him fuel to get mad back at. great job of staying calm anthony.
Frank Douglas No, I don't think he was purposely trying to antagonize Anthony. He was just speaking his mind. People like this evangelical, who think they have a lock-down on truth, don't realize that they are being insulting when they do things like this.
+Andrew Beaumont I totally agree. I didn't say he was intentionally doing it. but I think he would have not given anthony a chance to keep going on with the convo. if anthony had gotten aggressive back at him it would have made the accusations he was making about anthony feel true to him. it was like he was thinking "get mad back at me. then I won't feel so bad about telling the other students bad things about you. then I'm right! "
Frank Douglas That's making way more assumptions than I'm comfortable with. I prefer to simply take people at face value.
Your approach is so respectful Anthony, I am in awe.
Wow I loved that actually. That was a fantastic, intellectual conversation of two people on separate ends of the philosophical spectrum where both parties were honest and respectful and didn’t get heated. Ended in a handshake! I love this channel!
Some of the people I respect the most are those I disagree nearly 100% with.
He sees you as a wolf that devours newborn beliefs. A devil that pokes and tests one's belief.
You are dangourous. In other word's, it means you're doing a wonderful job Antonio, keep it up:)
Keep doing what you're doing Anthony.
Wow. Kyle seems a bit hostile toward questions. He also seems quick to manufacture motives for others unrelated to reality. Also, there seems to be an almost dangerous undercurrent of anger and rage against the "loss" of believers. I was honestly concerned about his reaction towards Anthony in several moments and I think his summation of Christianity as a "warfare" against the "world dominating evil" embodies a need for hostility.
Anthony: I want to say this since I've never seen it commented before. Your demeanor and consistent attitude is seriously inspiring. I've really only seen it in Sam Harris. It gives people something to emulate. You're doing a great justice posting these videos and putting in the work that you do. I can speak for regular viewers of this channel that your ethic and consistency is beyond impressive. I would've mistaken you for a mormon. Keep up the good work.
Thank you. What a nice thought to share. Much appreciated and happy new year 2022
You’ve never seen a comment like yours in the comments section? Really?? About half the comments in every video of his has some version of what you said.
I've personally have spent the last two weeks pondering this video, and a couple of key points that I'm really trying to understand where he's coming from but I can't seems to relate to any sense of reality.
for instance...
1. His constant insistence of knowing your intentions.
this bothers me because you can insert any insane conclusion, for example
(Anthony is really part of the reptilian Illuminati overlords trying to bring about the return of the anti-christ)
2. this one bothers me the most, and I quote...
"god will not reveal himself to you until you obey him, because it would be
UNWISE FOR HIM TO DO SO"
Generally how would it be unwise?
What does that even mean?
How does he know that?
How would revealing yourself to a honest seeker be unwise?
If you believe in a god that loves and want to save Anthony from an eternity of torture in his basement, wouldn't god want to reveal himself?
Isn't Anthony worthy of the same Damascus road experience as the biblical apostle Paul was?
...and how could God ever be unwise???
But they have to justify their own belief in something they have no empirical evidence for. And to do that, they have to set up this huge complex mental construction to justify it. It's not much different than telling children never to come down and try to see Santa Claus because if they do, he'll go away and not give you any presents.
See what happens when you think things through....doubts and questions.
Stop thinking things through and trust in Jesus. You too can share the bliss of arrogant, ignorant obedience to my imagined god.
However can we resist that invitation?
48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene | The Cult | ruclips.net/video/a2PoKFuNX_0/видео.html ?vds agd 34asda
Basically towards the end he is telling you 'don't fuck with my flock'
chetyoder Yes. And as I mentioned in the video description, I wonder if he is equally concerned about me speaking with members of the other non-Christian religious groups on campus.
Anthony Magnabosco The answer is no. Your questions invite reason into the discussion and that's exactly what that guy doesn't want.
He is saying to OBEY is the most important thing to find God AND stating that Anthony is not a truth seeker. I hope he listens to these videos.
god is a fake
Hi, Anthony. I just started watching your videos a few days ago, and I'm hooked. I'll no doubt spend many more hours over this holiday break watching more. What you're doing is both noble and entertaining. Thank you for taking the time to share these videos.
In this video, I noticed you asked Kyle if you should "fake it till you make it." This struck me as an interesting dismissal of his proposition, particularly because this is a suggestion offered today by psychotherapists to a person who wishes to cultivate a different mindset. The idea that attitude and understanding can follow action seems to be well understood. As an atheist and former Christian, I would probably resist-as you did-the suggestion that I should try acting like a Christian for some long duration. But I'm trying to reconcile my resistance with my view that "acting" like something you want to be is a good way to become that thing.
As an illustrative example, I recently changed roles from engineer to manager. Without any formal training to guide me in this transition, I've found it useful to ask myself, "What specific actions do good managers take?" I don't know yet what it means think like a manager, because this is something I haven't observed and haven't been trained to do. However, I have observed the behaviors of good managers. And I have the advice of a psychotherapist that said, "fake it till you make it," in all sincerity. So, I believe that in acting like a good manager, I will become a good manager. More importantly, I will gain the mindset of a good manager. I fully expect that practicing specific actions will cultivate a mentality that will eventually produce other "good manager" behaviors-an emergent behavior, if you will.
So, I don't see "fake it till you make it" as a technique obviously worth dismissing out of hand.
The patience you showed with this man earned you my subscription... Well done, Sir... Wow.
The conflict in this conversation is based of what Anthony's vs Kyle's version of the "Truth" is.
Kyles version of Truth: starts by already accepting the christian god and the bible, then progressing from there.
Anthonys version of Truth: starts by finding out how many deities there are, which version of these can be backed up by scientific evidence, what is viable, and discovering fact from fiction.
But Anthonys version conflicts with Kyles version, as it is viewed as the "Devils" work.
Kyle, if you read this, go look up 'special pleading'. Understand that it's a logical fallacy that rationality abhors. Then watch the video and notice that the reasons that you give for your beliefs rest on special pleading. Your beliefs can easily be shown to be irrational if you were to, for example, let Anthony interview you.
aoflex he has before he kept trying to turn the interrogation back around.
He claimed he has faith because there are no inconsistencies in the Bible. 🤣
Anthony this video right here really makes me appreciate what you do here for humanity!!! And to Kyle if you ever drop your ego enough to actually come here and watch and read this then my advice to you is try being quiet and listening to Anthony here before answering if answering questions is what you consider what you are doing. All I learned from listening to you talk is to Question my beliefs in Christ and I am sure many others have walked away from Bible belief after listening to you speak
I am amazed at how well you stay calm! How you just ask questions when I would be making statements. You have a stronger will power than me.
TL;DR Kyle thinks that questioning faith is OK as long as you accept and obey the true God Jesus Christ
+Thulyblu Why of course! Question other faiths, but stick to the one they already have.
+Thulyblu That's TL;DW.
+Thulyblu We do not look to Krishna to see if what Jesus has said is true. We dont need to investigate islam to see if Christianity is true. If the faith of Christ is true then the only way to the Father is through Christ.
"_I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me._"~Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Nate Jay So how DO you find out if the bible is reliable?
Bram Kaandorp You can start by reading it.
wow, it's almost embarrassing to think that that was my line of thinking ten years ago. ROFL. keep up the good work Anthony, his reaction is a result of how much you're an impact on people.
Again, I am baffled by why people claiming to be Christians get so defensive about what ought to be a genuine sincere loving conversation about their beliefs and how they arrived at them. I grew up in an Evangelical family and do remember that mindset much to my dismay and in hindsight realize it was more ego based, that preaching AT people. I’ve been trying to remember when or how I began understanding my place in the universe and context of history differently and am guessing it started around the college age. Anthony, you are doing the right things, and with compassion and I believe sincerity. I still identify as Christian but I have a lot of questions and I am fine with asking them and if God does exist he’s fine with them. The God of my knowledge is so big how could he/she/it NOT understand we have doubts? This fellows argument that only christians with 3 years of discipleship under their belts could possibly handle the questions you ask is ridiculous. I have over 30 years and appreciate every question you have and find myself sitting back and puzzling through some of them realizing there are a lot of things/behaviours I do that should be scrutinized. I wish more people would engage with you with less ego and more humility.
I love how you respond so softly and carefully to him when he patronizes and strawmans you. Love your videos.
To seek the absolute truth is an afford one should respect. But beware of those who claim to have found it.
Perfect. As in flying saucers and aliens. I can't believe we're the only life in the universe, but dude, I'll believe it when I SEE it. not 'cause you said YOU'VE seen it.
+Kathie Brophy They take the Batman v Superman approach, if there is 1% that the biblical god exists, you must treat it with total certainty.
I believe he is not only frightened by your questions. Also he needs to convince himself now that his worldview is sound. His frustration and subdued animosity portrays a person of faith threatened by lack of substance in their faith's validity. He sees it, and is now angry that it's there. He blames the Devil. From here it can take a path of extremism, or pure questioning. If his authentic goal is truth. The path will be pure questioning. We all know where that can lead. If his stubborn pride wins. Well then we have a candidate for an extreme fundamentalist.
"The invisible attributes are clearly seen"
I don't even know what to say to that.
Was difficult to give this video a like but it's useful to show that some people aren't interested in exploring or questioning much of anything. You still did a really good job remaining calm and consistent with your "agenda" - ROFL. With that, this vid gets my thumbs up!
20:13 was a beautiful moment. What a brilliant question, "Is somebody really doubting if they're unwilling to completely abandon a belief. If they're always going to maintain that tether with the deeply held belief, is it really legitimate doubt?" What a thoughtful probing question. I think that was the first time in the conversation that we get to actually see him stop and think for a fraction of a second, instead of working from a deep rooted script. Nicely done, sir. I really want to study and practice this method of conversation about belief. I am so fascinated right now.
Then he got mad at professors and Tony for "assaulting" these weak young Christian minds with, you know, FACTS and junk. Wow. What a buffoon this guy is: Book learnin' undoes our brain-warshin'! GOOD! To paraphrase the bible "when people grow up, they SHOULD throw away childish things!"
If God created me to be worshipped, I highly advise him to give me stronger evidence than a book.
Bless you for your patience with this man. It’s so refreshing to see someone keep after genuinely questioning someone when it would be so easy to dismiss his statements and see how he is the one indoctrinating kids with an agenda.
“I understand you believe that” such a good response
Kyle said "God revealing himself only comes through obedience".( paraphrase )
But the bible shows otherwise. Saul was murdering Christians (which was disobeying God) and then God still revealed himself to Saul.
If you are agnostic, God can reveal himself to you regardless of if you are currently trying to believe
He is all powerful so that should be easy. But he's also all knowing so he already knows whether or not he will so....I'm confused.
I think his logic is this. "I have the truth and the truth is Jesus. You say you want the truth but don't believe in Jesus; Therefore, you aren't seeking the truth". This logic works fine if you start with the conclusion and work your way backwards.
Love the way you frame your arguements. I would love to do my own street epistemology
After some thought, a very simple rebuttal to his claim would be this:
Anthony would say: "You don't have to guess my motives around people who aren't well versed in your faith, just look at my actions. I don't promote a specific view, I promote rational thought and introspective questioning. If you claim that your God is the ultimate truth and source of truth, then talking to me should lead them closer to your god, no?"
It's very telling when reason is associated with unbelief and loss of faith.
Six whole minutes before he breaks out an argument from ignorance
I believe you meant to say "argument from smugnorance" fallacy.
Kyle, buddy, if your beliefs had enough evidence to withstand empirical investigation, and if there was enough evidence to warrant obedience and belief without presuppositions, it wouldn't need faith.
Edit: and if those same beliefs could withstand a few honest questions, why advise people to avoid Anthony?
It has been said, that truth has nothing to fear from investigation. Seems Kyle may have a different take on that.
18:24 I really have a hard time to understand any "good shepard" metaphor.
The work of any good shepard is to allow the sheep to be fleeced before being slaughtered, by removing their freedom.
Being killed by the wolves seem so much more honest.
Anthony's restraint and calm while dealing with hostile, arrogant cultists is amazing.
Hard to watch this guy not being challenged on his obey B.S.
Kyle knows nothing of the history of the bible. He maintains that the bible is a first hand account of the life of Jesus. How ignorant is that? I am always so surprised that Christians know almost nothing of how the bible was written and by whom. It is hard to watch such ignorance parading as wisdom.
He is unaware that those the authored the Bible, are not eye witnesses. There is no eye witness testimony of Jesus in the Bible.
Christians generally never have a grasp on the history of Christianity. Understanding it’s origins makes it 100x harder to believe.
Kyle criticizes you for not being a "true seeker", but it seems Kyle doesn't want true seekers. Kyle seems to want false obeyers...
Just came across this one. Man, you are so patient and calm. This guy was getting upset. I remember being a christian, and many believers are like this. They get angry or upset, instead of having patient dialog. I think the honest reason is you challenge and make them rethink, and that makes them afraid.