Street Epistemology: Sydnee | Transgenderism (Gender is a Social Construct)
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2019
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 21 March 2019
Released: 4 April 2019
Summary: Sydnee thinks gender is a social construct and not binary, so we compare that view to introversion/extroversion and race to see if she is being consistent.
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Skip ahead to a desired point in the talk (clickable timestamps can be found in the top pinned comment of this video):
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Explanation: 00:08
Reassurance: 01:21, 02:11
Claim (What): 02:39
Justification (Why): 04:05
Repeating: 04:42, 06:27, 08:58, 10:48, 11:23; 13:55
Elenchus: 05:28; 12:53
Aporia: 11:03; 13:55
Mirroring: 11:03; 14:36
Modeling Wonder: 11:34
Closing: 15:08
Outro: 15:50
Bonus: 16:12
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Note: Add 35 seconds to these timestamps if listening to the podcast version of this talk.
Audio Only: / s-xehck
Audio correction provided by Philipp Grzemba.
Outro Music 'Don’t Look’ provided by Silent Partner, courtesy RUclips Audio Library.
** Add foreign language captions w/RUclips's community contributions tools **
Mistakes: "Mexican" is not a race, so we should have probably used "Hispanic" or "Latino" in our example.
Recorded w/Go-Pro. Edited w/PowerDirector.
The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
#StreetEpistemology #Magnabosco #Transgenderism #Gender #Race #Binary #NonBinary #Extrovert #Introvert #AnthonyMagnabosco #TheGodTest
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Skip ahead to a desired point in the talk:
--
Explanation: 00:08
Reassurance: 01:21, 02:11
Claim (What): 02:39
Justification (Why): 04:05
Repeating: 04:42, 06:27, 08:58, 10:48, 11:23; 13:55
Elenchus: 05:28; 12:53
Aporia: 11:03; 13:55
Mirroring: 11:03; 14:36
Modeling Wonder: 11:34
Closing: 15:08
Outro: 15:50
Bonus: 16:12
--
Note: Add 35 seconds to these timestamps if listening to the podcast version of this talk.
This chapter timestamping is extremely helpful, especially when one needs to go back and review parts of the discussion.
While I think this topic is extremely interesting, and I really enjoyed the discussion, I don't think SE is really the optimal method here. Gender is something which is studied using science.
If a person wants to understand gender better, it is far more useful to study scientific literature, or read articles on the scientific work being done on it, especially from a scientifically literate source, rather than simply setting some time aside and pondering about it. Just as you would for any other phenomena of the brain.
EDIT: Special care for sources of information should be given due to the political focus that topic is receiving.
Gender is also a very complex phenomena, which has biological aspects, such as brain structure in particular regions of the brain, and social aspects, such as gender roles. So an approach which only focuses on one aspect is oversimplified.
I would highly recommend reading about some of the findings so far on studying cis and trans brains:
www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027
Hi Anthony, Sydnee was really interesting and the topic was fascinating. If she returns, it would be really interesting to explore the limits of self-determination. For example, "What would happen if a person took extreme measures (e.g. dangerous, illegal surgery) and this was harmful to them?". Is there a limit to self-identification?
Also I would imagine a large element of gender is socially constructed but there may be elements which are driven by hormones or other physical manifestations of gender. It would be really interesting to hear her take on this.
Great talk.
@@tinbadger8097 There is a correlation between particular brain structure and cis and trans gender identities. I don't think causation is understood a this point, and probably is a combination of environmental and genetic factors, based on a twins study.
Timer start: 06:29
I hope Sydnee comes back for another talk. This was riveting.
"Before we start are there any pronouns I need to be aware of?"
The amount of respect in these interviews is refreshing. 😊
Why would he need to know her pronouns, because he's addressing to her in second person, "you"?
@teflontelefon The girl must know her interviewer is addressing her directly!
If she were to say "you" or "ma'am" or something, I suppose, OK… But she says "I use she her".
How could he possibly refer to her as "she" or "her" in that context?
If Anthony recognizes this for the nonsense it is, then it is patronizing. Patronizing is not respectful.
@teflontelefon There's a big difference between holding back one's opinion and volunteering to participate in the charade.
It's a charade to ask what pronouns she uses (rather, prefers to be used in reference to her) because he is address her directly. The chance that he would even need to use "she" or "her" in reference to her, while talking to her, is almost nil. That's why it's a charade.
As for censorship, yes, that is a massive problem that needs to be fixed.
We need to revise the telecommunications act §230 c, the "good samaritan clause". The good samaritan clause allows providers to remove content that meets a laundry list of useless, subjective adjectives that its authors threw in there to make themselves feel good about themselves. It allows providers to remove content that is "lewd, offensive, or otherwise objectionable". This effectively amounts to allowing providers the liberty to remove whatever they feel like.
It must be changed so that providers are allowed to remove content that is "illegal". And then you can get into legislating laws on spam, etc.
Thank you.
4:00 "I have breasts, a pretty face, an alto voice, and identify is he/him even though maleness doesn't exist."
Ah, yes. I am a black, lesbian dwarf, but when I applied to the Police Dept their HR dept wouldn't accept these demographics. My pale skin, 5'10" height, penis and beard may have confused them.
I really hope she comes back, I'd like to see this conversation go further... besides she needs to collect all the wheel pieces! :) Great chat, as always.
At the end of the dialog, where you told her you were glad she stopped, and she responded "Me too!"
That was *genuine*. You can tell she really enjoyed talking to you, Anthony.
@@adarkerstormishere 10000% agree. What a great thing to hear at the end of a conversation also
Anthony, you have become so polished at this method it is professional level stuff. Professor Boghossian must be extremely proud to see his methods used so successfully. This interlocutor seemed quite receptive to the process.
As someone just getting into this content and learning of this method, this Professor Boghossian is an interesting bread crumb, I have more to know
@@danielg3857 Peter Boghossian's book "A Manual for Creating Atheists" is how Anthony got started with SE. Check it out :)
@@mathewhutchins2539 I've become more acquainted with the concept these past few months, I'll probably check it out after I get through the next couple books I've been meaning to finish.
If only Boghossian would follow his own rules instead of being an ideologue.
I like the idea. I just don’t like the guy that much.
unfortunate that boghossian is now lying about trans people for a living :(
Brilliant Chat. When Sydnee remembered your genealogy it showed just how bright she is. I hope she comes back
Intoxicatedoutspokenantitheist Yes, I noticed that as well. She was paying close attention.
Me too. I'd love to be as bright and focused as these two!
Nice username, lol
Just at the start I have one suggestion, and I'm curious what you think.
You tell people you'll be challenging their views, then very soon after you say you'd like to talk to them again later to "track their progress". From the mindset of someone with a deep seated belief that is being challenged, offering to "track their progress" on the idea might imply that you assume the talk will change their view. Maybe something like "track that idea and see if it's evolved" would be better? I dunno.
Maybe it doesn't matter. I know you select words very carefully, so I'm curious on your reasoning for using that phrase.
Louis Lequai That’s a good point. I usually try to add something like “your confidence may stay the same, increase, or decrease”.
Could "check your progress" also mean:
--has the IL continued to self interrogated the REASON for their belief. To use skepticism on themselves to explore the mechanisms of how they come to their positions.
--also can mentioning to 'check your progress" statement a way to measure if the IL has done further investigstion of the WHAT surrounding thier belief AND IN TURN expanded their explanatory power of why they believe.
--Ans could "check your progress" (after the IL applied skepticism on both the what and why of the belief) be a great way to ask if the certianty (or confidence) has gone up OR gone down?
--Finally can asking to "check their progress" of the IL be an effective way to estanlish further discussions?
Loved it. The curiosity as if both are looking for an answer even tho both parties have their own view without stepping on toes. Cool and kind of artful. Will subscribe.
Progression of them thinking over time. Not progression toward a desired outcome.. of course you can be 99 percent clear and still be taken out of context or be better.
That was wonderful. And she was fantastically thoughtful in her responses. I hope she comes back for more talks.
At first I thought you were a little too 'soft' on Sydnee because you two agreed in principle, but at the end the discussion became a little more challenging for you both which was good to see. She was very charming and intelligent.
She was a dumb bitch
Anthony did a great job on this one keeping it comfortable and really getting her to think about the ideas. I hope she comes back and completes her wheel.
@We Good
Can I ask you some questions about this judgement and why you may have to come to hold it so strongly?
She was a bomb ass bitch
U have the best comment section on RUclips
When an introvert feels nervous, they dance around the courtyard.
When an extrovert feels nervous, they run away and stick their nose in a book.
I wonder if she has considered that gender is bi-modal, with most men clustering on the masculine and most women clustering on the feminine end of the spectrum, meaning that in practical shorthand discussions its usefult to describe it as a binary despite being technically innaccurate.
I think gender is basically personality and as such is socially and biologically informed.
It's an interesting point. If we construct masculinity-femininity as a dimensional model rather than as categorical then it would likely be bi-modal, as you say. However, that type of model relies on being able to identify gender-relevant dimensions with opposite poles. For example, stereotypically, 'aggressive - passive', 'low emotionality - high emotionality', 'neglecting - nurturing', and so on.
You can probably already see some problems there, just from the examples. Does it make a man more 'masculine' to be aggressive? If he goes to anger management and learns to control his aggression, does he become more feminine? Some might say yes - but that raises the issues of who gets to decide what the dimensions are, which end is 'masculine' versus 'feminine', and _why_ we should use those characteristics.
I think youre viewing it top down rather than bottom up, i think we see aggression as more masculine simply because men tend to cluster on that end of the spectrum. If you take something like “focused on object” or “focused on people” then it ends up being gendered because of where men and women tend to cluster, we know its got deeper roots than societal because apes cluster in the same gendered way.
A more passive male would be less masculine but not less male.
@@TheCraigrobson Indeed - but then there's an even broader discussion to be had about the extent to which social constructs are created top-down or bottom-up.
Yep! And isnt the answer “it depends” and also “its a mixture” for every variable?
You cant unbake the cake but we both know the ingredients
But it wouldn't be accurate when trans people exist just like gay people do
This is video a master class on mirroring what your interlocutor says. Every time you repeated her ideas back to Sydnee, it "forced" her to think about her idea and refine her answer to be more descriptive & precise. Nice!
Also, while stopping this particular conversation must have been really hard since Sydnee was so engaged in the conversation, I completely agree with the reason for doing so. I can't wait to see conversation #2 when it happens.
Great start (?) of what is hopefully a longer conversation. Sydnee seems like a perfect interlocutor, as she seems respectful, curious and open-minded, yet also informed and rational about her initial position. I sure hope she comes back. I think the puzzle piece prop is an excellent reminder for someone to return. Great idea.
Really interesting! I'm a transgender girl, but because of my "racial" background as "white" I've never gotten the perspective to make the connection between them. The term "white-passing" really made it click for me. They kind of are just the same thing, an artificial distinction for the sake of ego, something only real within the mind. Really insightful!
Thank you Syndee and Anthony for this interesting chat. I hope to see a follow up.
Finally! Thanks for this. I love it when you cover topics other than God and faith (I enjoyed those earlier, but after a point, they become really repetitive). Do keep these going!
Just a note, he's not picking the topics. The phenomenon is caused by people's desire to talk about their beliefs in the supernatural
@@travelinghermit That while technically true isn't a completely accurate depiction. He often guides the topic of choice in the beginning of many of his videos.
@@arjun2211i Do you think so? I think he does have a bias toward wanting to talk about religious beliefs. But i also think gives as free a choice as can be given
I've been waiting for these in secret.
I thought the point that she made about an introvert seeming extroverted because they answered questions in a class, but really that stems from them being uncomfortable that no one else was answering, was really apt! I think, analogously, there can be people who identity with/as a certain gender, and it may not seem that way to others, in part because they have other reasons that are motivating their behavior (e.g. "I might like to act as more feminine, but I might get harassed on the street" or "I might like to act as more masculine, but I'm worried my boyfriend would break up with me.")
I also really appreciated Sydnee's discussions on race. I'm a white transgender person, and I feel a gut feeling of disagreement when people make an argument like "well if you can identify as a woman, why couldn't a white person identify as black?" but I've honestly never been sure quite how best to respond! I will say, I think there is something to the idea that to apply a certain label to oneself, somebody has to meet certain criteria. We can disagree about what those criteria are, for example, one Christian might say "To be a Christian you have to be 100% certain that there is a God" and another Christian might say "It is okay to have doubts, you can be a little uncertain in God and still be Christian." For some people, one of the criteria of being transgender is an experience of gender dysphoria, or a negative emotional reaction to being associated with the gender you were assigned at birth. And for me, I think one of the criteria that goes into a racial label is something like "someone you are biologically related to, like your parents, must be of that race." Gender dysphoria, as an experience, is something that could happen to anyone (although it's somewhat difficult to prove that it is an experience you're having, like a qualia, or a sensation), but having a parent of a certain race _isn't_ something that could happen to anyone, it's fixed. This criterion breaks down a little bit thinking about mixed race people, who might identify as a race ("mixed") that neither of their parents identify as, so it could stand some revision, but for the purposes of youtube comments, I think it's good enough for now. For me, the ability or inability to meet these criteria is what makes someone part of a group or not, and because some of the criteria for race are fixed upon birth but the criteria for gender aren't, that's what makes being transgender possible but being transracial impossible.
As such, it makes sense to me that someone who thinks that the criteria for gender are fixed at birth shouldn't believe that being transgender is possible, and at that point I would shift the conversation to "well, what are your criteria?" and we could get into a discussion of how those criteria inform what we think the definition of gender is.
Hey, are you alive? I want to respond.
Fantastic subject! Sydnee seemed intelligent, thoughtful and open to examining ideas. This subject is one where I've been unable to decide where I stand and I love examining it vicariously. I hope she comes back.
Great talk and interesting topic! I really hope she comes back for a 2nd talk.
Very sharp young lady. Even showed a willingness to adjust her position as she considered Anthony's questions and new information. Well done...on both sides.
Wow. One of the most respectful and considered discussions I’ve seen on this subject. Good job! I wish she’d had more conversations with you as it would be interesting to see how this would develop.
The introvert/extrovert correlation was genius. This was the most intelligent argument for gender fluidity I've ever heard. Great conversation.
While I did not agree with everything Sydnee said, her responses were thoughtful and appeared sincere. Really enjoyed this conversation; hoping for a follow up!
This is a great example of SE. I loved the 11:00 mark, it's where the conversation splits. Before the 11:00 mark, the conversation is all about probing the claim, after you can see the shift to where the claim is being doubted and questioned. Great job Anthony.
Strangely......
I find the end of this talk to be so smile inducing that I felt I had to also mention it here....
Great talk AM!!
I was smiling huge when this ended....
Slowly but surely regaining hope in humanity. Thank you Anthony for making content available that separates ppl from their ideas. I absolutely love what u do. This is hopefully the wave of the future. I def have changed my approach toward ppl who I disagree with. Thank you for helping me make the most of my interactions w others!
Solid! The timing on when to end this conversation, so that we can process the information and the questions presented, was excellent. Oftentimes I think we can become too "hungry" and "gluttonous" when interacting with others resulting in the original topic at hand getting lost in the ocean of words, meanings, and concepts. Well done Anthony!
Just recently found Anthony, Reid, Nathan, and the rest of the Street Epistemology guys. Really interesting stuff and very helpful for exploring both our thinking and the thought process of others.
This is so interesting. Really hope there's a follow up :)
It's interesting to see how often "Mexican" is used as if it was a race, almost makes the recent Fox news blunder referring to "... three Mexican countries" seem less out of place.
Of course it would be possible to identify as Mexican tomorrow as long as your citizenship was approved in the meantime.
True, I think people use latino and Mexican interchangeably because it became pervasive.
Yeah, I assume that's how many people use American to identify people in the USA when Americas is also a continent.
Yeah I included (in the video description under “mistakes”) that we should’ve used Hispanic or Latino instead of Mexican.
Race doesn't have a sound scientific foundation, and the modern concepts of race seem to tie back to the Enlightenment, where the concept of 'scientific racism' originated.
Interesting, they were all Native Americans prior to European colonization and manifest destiny. A fact I think most don't consider these days.
Fantastic talk! I really like Sydnee's Personality, hope to see her again : )
Great chat!! She's doing her best to consider your questions thoughtfully. Most of us don't often have opportunities to verbalize what we believe, let alone explain why we believe it. This may help her think about how she justifies her beliefs so she will be able to explain herself better next time. Good job, Sydnee!!!
Great conversation!! I hope she comes back!!!
Amazing. Haven't watched you in a while. It is still so refreshing ... just to have a conversation :)
Interesting topic and great talk as always. You could see how just talking about it and thinking about your questions was making Sydnee reevaluate her positions in realtime. She even said it herself at one point. I really hope she comes back.
I am so thankful for this video. I've come back to it multiple times over the years and can say it's truly helped me in my own personal reflections and development.
that was fantastic. i’d love to hear more. i hope she returns.
i have watched a lot of your videos and this is my favorite so far. Love the topic!!!
This definitely helped me refine my positions and arguments in favor of gender as a social construct, sometimes you just need the question to find the answer or to find the flaw in another answer. Thanks!
Great conversation from both of you!
Maybe in the next talk you can ask the question of what Sydnee would NOT accept as a social construct and why
Yes. I would love to know what she thinks is a social construct, where the boundaries lay.
Introvert extravert is measurable in personality tests and does not change much over someone's life. How would she think about this?
Yeah, what does she mean when she refers to a social construct? To me, it sounded like an arbitrary way of defining people into labels, but I could be wrong.
@@elisenieuwe4649 Actually personality tests only measure subjective self-description, so her definition is very consistent with the psychological "measurable method". In fact this self-description blind spot is a known and important issue in personality psychology. The fact they don't really change much over most people lives really just describe the fact that people tend to self-describe in similar ways, whether their actual behaviors are consistent with that are not as easily measurable.
one minute in and I already think this person is one of the nicest you have spoken to! Go Sydnee!
I actually learned a lot by listening to her answers. Thank you both!
Great! I just think we may need a little more challenging questions next time. I think what would be interesting to explore more with SE is the 'is gender subjective?' thing, e.g. *'Can a person believe they are of a specific gender and be wrong?'*
This is really awesome! just discovered your channel. keep it up!
I love her energy and positivity, i had this on the background and i just had to take a look.
I'm glad she's willing to talk about this stuff. The stereotype of college kids is for them to clap in your face and tell you to educate yourself.
Things have just changed so fast. I'm only 25 but I feel like this conversation of gender being fluid started in maybe 2012. Most people don't really think about their gender vs their sex. Parents put their boys and girls in soccer. I didn't like sports so I played shooting video games half the time and sewed costumes and stuffed animals the other half. I new most men and women and average have different interests, but I never grew up thinking it's weird I had female doctors. I didn't think it was weird my mechanic was a woman. I didn't think the vice president of a software company being a woman I met was weird. I never thought it was weird I had female math and chemistry professors in college, I thought they were great. I play Doom with my girlfriend and didn't ever think she shouldn't.
Ya there's idiot dads out there who thought their kid might turn out gay if he got a pink shirt. But gender? It meant sex. Now it means gender roles + a bunch of other shit that usually aligns with sex. So if you enjoy lots of different things like my friends did and aren't cartoonishly masculine or feminine, now you need different pronouns.
I also feel like this is bad for the trans community. It's made people think that gender is trendy, and you can choose it and change it and trans people aren't men or women, they're some third "it" category. I could be wrong, but I think trans people want to be treated like men or women and don't think they're purposely choosing to make their life harder.
As Sydnee says it's just like racial profiling, we are getting used to the idea that gender isn't hardwired or defined by physical attributes such as genitalia. Given the time it's taking America to adapt to the ramifications of its Emancipation Proclamation, gender identity is going to take decades to embed itself as a new American normal and orthodoxy. My hunch is that it's Sydnee's generation that will easily make the leap, whereas my generation is doomed to cling on to the faith that gender is hardwired, binary and pre-defined at birth.
You're good.
Even your excitement for the topic, you held it in so well.
I really hope this young lady follows up. Great conversation as usual brother.
If a fundamentalist Christian flat-earther self defines as rational,
are they?
Really enjoyed this one 😎🇬🇧
If they live in the 1400's then maybe
@Stevo Devo lol 😆
Exactly. You can’t just declare yourself one thing and act the complete opposite.
I really think it’s a problem with semantics. That person may not have the same definition of rational as you have. In order to debate, both parts need to fully understand the other’s definition.
A fundamentalist Christian flat-earther could actually be rational (for example if they had never been exposed to rational arguments against flat-earth theories the flat earth view would not necessarily mean the person is not rational and most religious people concede that their faiths are not completely based on reason)
Smart insightful beautiful humble thoughtful lady!!..loved this interview 😍
I love how she was ready to rethink her stances, Very thoughtfully done!
damn i loved this topic and the way u 2 discussed it. i hope she comes back,coz i'd like to see it till the end :)
Sydnee was thoughtful and enthusiastic, which makes for a great talk. Hope she returned for round 2
just walk along the chain of questions. its nice to think of what you provide as a service to iterate through someones own thoughts
it blew me away when she gave her example of introversion and extroversion i never thought of it like that and i think she picked a very easy to understand example
I didn't find it all that compelling. I think her perspective on race was a better example. The introvert/extrovert perspective seemed to simply be that you can't know if a person is introvert or extrovert because of a singular action you see them doing. This is perfect but for the wrong reasons. Extroverts and Introverts are not so because of the energy they display. That is one of the downsides to this example. Introverts relax or reenergize by getting away from people. Extroverts reenergize by being around people. An introvert can be very energetic and the life of the party when he/she goes to one while an extrovert could be relatively low key at one. There is no way one would know what category one falls under by watching their behavior in public. She misunderstands the difference between the two personality type I believe.
I loved this discussion Anthony, keep up the good work
Great IL and conversation and very effective rapport building.
"what we would call **checks notes** race" made me laugh
I think it helps, when talking about how gender and race are socially constructed, to look at other social constructs, like was done at the start of the talk. But there are many other things which are socially constructed that aren't as tied to a person's identity. For instance, the amount of time we spend working is socially constructed!
And this is an interesting social construct, because it's one where you can't simply "decide" to change. You can't go in and tell your boss that you're just going to work 30 hours this week because you identify as a 30-hour worker this week.
My point is that something being socially constructed and it being "fluid" from person to person are not equivalent. So, when we look at gender, and we say that gender is socially constructed, what we mean is that what it means to be a man is determined by the values of society as a whole. A woman's role used to be in the home, but that is no longer true. What it means to be a woman is not as tied up with being a homemaker as it once was. The gender role of women in society has changed, and it was able to change because the idea of what it means to be a woman is socially constructed; the idea of what it means to be a man is socially constructed. Gender is socially constructed.
And that is actually an entirely separate question from the existence of transgender people. For example, a trans man fits into the same socially constructed gender box as a cis man, but this would remain true even if the gender box wasn't actually socially constructed. And that's because the answer to "what does it mean to be a man" is not "have a penis". All that is required to have transgender people is to have sex boxes and to have gender boxes; by simply having the boxes, you are practically guaranteed by the fact that nature doesn't fit into boxes that you will have people who don't conform to the usual sex/gender pairing.
We could get rid of the idea of transgender if we abandoned the boxes; my gender is me, my sex is me, my sexuality is my own. I am the only me and if you try to make someone else fit precisely in my box you will fail. But such individualized categories are not very useful. So we make broader categories, knowing that in doing so there won't be a single person who actually "fits" the category perfectly.
Most groups happened to pick two or three genders because humans have a bimodal sex distribution, but it's still a distribution and there are people with sexual characteristics that are somewhat in-between the traditional male or female.
Sydnee absolutely is making me question my own beliefs about this, amazing talk.
Excited about the follow up.
Count me in as a new Anthony Magnabosco street epistemology addict!
One question I would have liked is" "does it being a social construct mean that it is purely self determined, or is there an aspect of social negotiation".
I mean, if things like "extrovert"/"introvert" are social constructs, then so are things like "agressive"/"peaceful". If someone comes running and screaming and punch me in the face for no reason, am I not in my right to say they are being agressive, even if they see themselves as completely peaceful ?
Is your identity really purely solipsisticly defined based on your internal life, or do your actions and how they are viewed by other people have an impact ?
To what degree does the internal model of the person about themselves justify their claims of identity ? Is there such a thing as being mistaken or deluded regarding your own identity ?
I think the difference is that peace/aggreyssion is descriptive while gender is prescriptive. There's also cause and effect dynamics that can reveal if something is "definitively" peaceful. Punching someone results in a reduction of peace.
Wearing makeup results in? Wearing high heels results in? Wearing dresses results in? Liking sports results in? Gender doesn't work the same for all those thing varied over time and by location in their relation to gender.
@@anthonynorman7545 : I think it'd be closer to something like fashion (another social construct). Ultimately one can choose their own fashion (and I think we can agree there's at least some correlation between gender and fashion), yet determining what fashion is good fashion and what is bad fashion is ultimately a decision made by others in society, not the one choosing the clothes. Your outfit isn't fashionable unless others determine it so, it is not a distinction that the person choosing the outfit makes. Social constructs are ultimately judged and determined by society itself, and I feel gender is the same way. Observers ultimately make a decision of gender based off appearance and mannerisms. It's why there are passing transsexuals that are seen as women and the ones that don't pass that are still seen as men.
@@taragnor I'm not convinced that the difference in gendered fashion is separate from the socialization of gender, so to me you're comparing something to a subset of itself, which is effectively discussing the same thing.
"Good" fashion is far too subjective of a claim with too much range in opinion for it to compare. Fashion varies more by context and culture than gender does. Also, people with large social capital can define for themselves what their fashion means and if it's good. Would you say the same for gender?
Most obsercers can make a distinction that a jewel, say cubic zirconium, is valuable (social construct) but be incorrect in challenging the holder who says the rock lacks value. In other words, people can be incorrect in their understanding of a social construct or be wrong in their assessments: hello miss. it's actually Mrs.
@@anthonynorman7545 : Well genderized fashion is something that's determined by society, not the individual. Dresses and skirts are regarded as female for instance. Certain colors are seen as more feminine, etc. The individual doesn't make pink a feminine color, society decides that.
Like any social construct, social capital can shift gender norms similar to fashion norms. An gender norms, like fashion norms have shifted over the ages. Just look at how the role of women in the workplace has changed over time, or ideas about female soldiers. In fashion, Scotland's kilts are a good example of men wearing skirts, and similar designs have popped up throughout history. Granted, there are some patterns in both that tend to be recurring due to biological differences in sex, but that's not to say they're not mutable.
As far as people being incorrect in understanding a social construct, it's a question of who is incorrect. One can for instance incorrectly label themselves as an extrovert when they exhibit all introvert traits, but ultimately it's society that determines what the correct answer is, not the individual. It's a little more complicated than that, because there can be different societal groups with different opinions, but the end result is that it's a power possessed by the group and not the individual. This is because the definition of a social construct derives from society itself. If it was individual-defined, it'd actually no longer be a social construct, it would be an emotion. Some examples: a person emotionally feel depressed as an individual, but to officially fall under the clinically depressed social construct, the responsibility goes to a psychologist, not the individual, to diagnose that. A person can feel guilty about a wrongdoing, but also be judged guilty in a court of law.
Gender can be an emotion as well. For instance, transgender have the feeling of being a different sex/gender than the one they currently have. And like any feeling or emotion, it is something personally-defined, not defined by society. When you're talking about self-identified gender, you're talking about gender as an emotion, not gender as a social construct.
Of course, further confusion then arises from which gender (emotional, social or biological) to use in what circumstance, which is a whole different debate.
@@taragnor Why something is gendered a certain way is typically a reflection of the idea/ideals associated with said gender. Gendered clothing is a subset of socalizaton of gender, so you're comparing something to itself and saying they are similar: yes. But also marketing strategies can decide what is gendered: see pink is for girls.
I still find fashion to be a bad comparison. Fashion is more subjective, more variable, more manipulated, may be more a result of other social constructs combining (religion and economic systems for example) and has no basis in objectivity. If human civilization reset to zero today fashion would be different, but as you admit there would be similar gender roles.
Extrovert is a label that can be confirmed by matching the traits assigned to it. Also, extrovert is descriptive not prescriptive like gender typically is. You're conflating descriptive and prescriptive language. Depression is a description of behaviors/feelings. Clinical depression is a prescription of a condition. Not all constructs are social (mathematics). What's the difference between feeling and emotion? Sensations are feelings but I wouldn't consider them emotions: hot, dissonance, tired. The guilt example is an equivocation fallacy: those are 2 different words that happen to sound & spell the same.
Gender has yet to be shown to be biological (that would be sex). How is someone (and I mean individual) else's feeling of what a person's gender is any less personal/feeling based than the individual who is being gendered? Gender is a prescription, so it can be wrong in a different manner than calling someone sad.
If 2 people see a person from across the street and one says the person is a guy and the other says the person is a girl (assuming a gender binary), what is best way to determine who's correct? I'd argue ask the individual because either onlooker could be mistaken.
That was actually a really good analogy to point out how important the individual experience is
So far the only claim she made that i disagree with is that sex is totally binary because of intersex people. I think this was a really great video though and that she was very knowledgeable on the topic. I really hope she comes back for another interview. This was a really encouraging one to watch.
While I agree with her that race is a social construct to some degree I'm glad she parsed out what she meant. The distinction she made at the end is really important.
Nice that you're back on the campus, students seem more engaged with lines of questioning than hikers.
Fantastic conversation! What a bright and open minded young lady! I thought this was interesting, but it never seemed to delve into whether the claim was TRUE or not. The method is really strong in helping her to clarify her thoughts and possibly to help make them more consistent across multiple examples, but really didn't do anything to determine if what she is claiming is true? I sure hope she comes back.
Sydnee, this talk changed how I see this issue. Please come back for another interview; this was way too short.
Dude, this was awesome! Great topic with a very smart and introspective interlocutor. Love how you could see the cognitive dissonance set in with it being acceptable to change your gender identity from one day to the next but very socially unacceptable to even the most progressive for i.e. a white man to say he identifies as Hispanic because...feelings? What’s really telling here is that biological differences for sex are much more pronounced than for race/ethnicity (which amounts to little more than melanin). I want to hear a lot more on the evidence for why “sex” is different than “gender”, and further, why it is acceptable to change your gender but not your race if they are both “fluid, social constructs”. I am somewhat skeptical on these points, and I’m interested to see where the conversation goes from here.
Wow! She takes this moment to attempt to articulate her beliefs and when she finds some dissonance, she's open to revising them. That's amazing! I'm so used to people acting as if they've been attacked when they discover their own dissonant beliefs
Awesome conversation.
I live that shes grying to think, trying to be objective, trying to be fair....
"Her name was Cindy, but she changed her name to Sin, I guess that's the name of her game." - Motley Crue, Dr Feelgood album
Very nice conversation. The point of confusion at the end seems to stem from a lack of distinction between race and ethnicity. Just like with gender and sex, those two terms are used interchangeably but mean different things.
I would like to be educated more on this gender topic. Can anyone give me links or sorces on where to start
People often mistake introversion with shyness. A lot of introverts (myself included) are not shy, we just get tired of social interaction after a while. And we tend to be alone more. But at a social meet ing you could not see the difference. With shy people is evident.
Great video! I believe like Sydnee does that race and gender are social constructs. Like her, i also would be less comfortable with someone changing race as opposed to changing gender day to day.
I realize that this could be a double standard. But race isn't 1 for 1 equivalent to gender, so i don't know.
I feel like I should be as accepting of race changing as I am of gender, but if I'm being honest it is more uncomfortable. Maybe I'm misplacing some baggage onto the word race that would better be saddled to words like culture or ethnicity?
This interview caused me to think about some of the foundations of my beliefs.
So good job! I'll think about this.
Anthony. I love the respect you give people. I think the closest example of a social construct you can give to gender, would be race. Race is the largest social construct.
Edit..Edit... I commented this before she brought up race. Wow.
The question I had, that makes me question her rationality is, If you'd question a person's self identified race, based on appearance, why then is it different from questioning a person's self identified gender, based on appearance? Is the difference that people don't like the ideas of "outsiders" identifying as "insiders", perhaps? Or to put it another way, does it offend our tribal sensibilities as humans for some one to claim to be one of us when we don't think of them as such? Perhaps because it implies an experience that we don't believe that they posses based on race, when gender is a harder thing to disprove/disbelieve, based solely on appearance... Its left me with some things to ponder...
Joseph Marsh Excellent questions. Ones that we should probably get into if we ever meet again.
I would love to talk to you about this subject, because when it comes to social constructs, there's a tendency to over-simplify and miss a lot of nuance, especially in subtle differences between one social construct and another (due to constructs by definition consisting of multiple components, which aren't necessarily the same, and being a social construct doesn't necessarily mean that all individual components are social). I don't know what your personal thoughts on the subject are, but there's a lot to unpack.
6:00 To add to what she said. Introvert/Extrovert can be conceptualized in many different ways. Is it how a person feels in a situation, or is it how they outwardly act, or is it both? And are different circumstances and variables being accounted for? Maybe an introvert is super nervous but for whatever reason is really trying to be loud and crazy in an attempt to maybe reduce those feelings and move towards a goal that they have... a lot like working out, you may hate how it feels in the moment, but you have goals that supersede those temporary negative emotions, VS someone that has no problem and feels great while lifting and could work out with ease but for other reasons neglects it. It's also clearly not a binary, I've seen extroverts completely shut down when they're for example in front of a crush, as well as the opposite, an introvert that bursts into being the goofy life of the party but only when around some groups they're in but never others.
Really interesting talk! I wonder if it's a case of identifying what is "masculine" and what is "feminine". It seems to be clear to identify race, from Sydnee's perspective.
I’m just working through all these vids, at least browsing on Xbox they’re unavailable chronologically. For the most part I can roughly judge them in order when I check the upload date on my phone.
So far what’s really stunning to me is the positive attitude, the chipper ness of the people you meet and I wonder if that’s an artifact of the publishing selection, if it’s an age thing from the immediate location , or that if I just live around grumpy assholes. Maybe I make people grumpy assholes? Maybe I’m similar to when he tried to teach aronra. You could just see Aron sitting there and know that no one’s gonna have a chill convo w him even if he could be non confrontationally attempting to converse. I’ll get some flip flops.
What you're doing is exactly what's we need
is there part 2?
Does there have to be an exact equivalent? Can gender as a construct stand on its own without being compared to another social construct? Do all social constructs have to fit all of the same characteristics?
Refreshing to see both smart and honest... follow up please!
This was a very interesting conversation, and Sydnee raised some very thoughtful points. The introversion / extroversion parallel doesn't really work, as that is a pretty robust and real characteristic in psychology (with a neurological basis). If someone is an extrovert and says they're an introvert, they're wrong - just as if they were to say they were cognitively field-dependent when they're actually field-independent. The same doesn't (necessarily) hold for things that are socially constructed, like gender identity. However, I think Sydnee may have been using the terms colloquially rather than scientifically, as she referred to '100% extrovert or 100% introvert' which isn't how they're viewed in psychology (extroversion-introversion being a continuum).
Anyway, I hope Sydnee comes back for her other two pieces of puzzle.
What I'm wondering with regards to gender expression is if it can be sifted apart from personality traits so that someone can distinguish between gender expression and plain old personality traits. Maybe this question is ill-formed; if so, please let me know.
I think the puzzle piece thing is a great idea! How many of those do you have?
I think I bought 100 sets and I’m running out quickly. If anyone wants to volunteer to buy me some more, that would be great. Private message me on social media if you think you could help me out.
@@magnabosco210 How many people have come back and retrieved one or both other pieces?
Tierney Rosenstock Several!
Hey! just watched this one. gonna search for it but itd be helpful itf if you linked subsequent vids together or linked them in the bio when youre trying for multiple ints. interviews.
JL Teachey I usually do in the video description, on-screen links (cards), and lately, end cap links. The three videos with Maritza are a good example of this.
@@magnabosco210 Thanks for reply! I will be more vigilant in looking for that. Your content is great and hugely inspiring. I am a facilitator and educator and these techniques are hugely helpful. I also want to begin practicing S.E bc its such a fascinating and constructive way to engage others. If you're ever in the Denver area, Id love to buy you a beer.
JL Teachey Oh yes I can definitely see this being put to good use in a classroom setting. Perhaps even consider teaching your kids how to use it, if you are not already. There are so many resources available these days as well as online communities were you can meet other people who are learning the stuff. Links that stuff are also in the video description. Thanks for watching.
I hope there is a follow-up.
I thought this was the perfect conversation for the tic tac questions. Any reason you didn't do that Anthony?
I would love for her to come back, and flesh out why she thinks it is a social construct, since all the other things rely on that. I must admit, I never really understood it, maybe she can shine some light.
Gender roles are a social construct. They reflect the society a person is a part of. There are structural differences in the brain between cis and trans people, which shows there is a biological foundation for the difference in experience between cis and trans people:
www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027
I wish she would come back and continue this conversation
And here we go: The next splendid young woman! When I watch politics I consider the USA nowadays as really awful, I´m sorry to admit. But seeing your discussions with those bright, thriving, energetic, friendly, smart and beautiful woman like Sydnee here, who are willing and able to question the own thoughts, gives me the feeling that the USA might be a wonderful place to be after all. Some really nice folks over there!
Is identity dependent on consciousness? Is the identity of the number of candies determined by consciousness? Yes or no?
Not sure if I totally agree with her but this girl was super cool. Hope she does it again!
Its always fascinating to litteraly perceive people's mind in action, modling concepts and remolding them. I would suggest that people should write their manifest on things they really believe using this method and check if and why it is true. Self epistemology of sorts. Might be less challenging that dialogue though