Street Epistemology: Justin | Atheists Need God to be Good (Guidance)
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- Опубликовано: 2 сен 2020
- Morality God Pretending Acting Truth Moral Street Epistemology Summary: Justin wonders if it's possible for people to act in a moral fashion without thinking that a God is real and what's really driving that "compelling force."
guid·ance
/ˈɡīdəns/
noun
1. advice or information aimed at resolving a problem or difficulty, especially as given by someone in authority.
Three questions for Justin (and for you):
"Why exactly do you think that you would be any different?"
"How would I act any different if I didn't think God was real?"
"Why would I want to be less moral than I am today?"
Note: I didn't notice until editing (or I probably would've said something on camera after the interview) how some of the background action happened to enhance certain aspects of this talk. For example, the golf cart (car) as we discuss the challenges of communicating, the various religious symbols on Justin's jacket, the seemingly lost older couple who stroll into the shot, the green wagon with quiet wheels, the landscaper picking up the leaf and tossing it in the trash. As far as I can tell, it really did just happen to work out that way. Oh! There was one small thing I intentionally snuck into the background--let's see if anyone notices it.
Note: If memory serves, the person with the bear was selling flowers or something (as it was Valentine's Day) and we had a brief chat about how she might sell more flowers if she walked around with the bear rather than stood next to it. If you look closely, it seems to help get people's attention.
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 14 February 2020
Released: 3 September 2020
Twitter: / magnabosco (follow me)
RUclips: / magnabosco210 (tons of videos)
Facebook: / magnabosco210 (like my page)
Website: anthonymagnabosco.com (contact me, appearances)
SE Resources: tinyurl.com/abm-se-resources
SE Community: tinyurl.com/abm-se-community
SE Discord Server: / discord
Skip ahead to a desired point in the talk:
--
Teaser: 00:02
Start: 01:24, 02:43, 05:21
Rapport: 01:38
Crack!: 03:08
Questions for Me: 03:13, 23:57
Topic Selection: 04:05, 05:49
Clarifying: 04:38, 08:17, 11:15, 11:50, 12:19, 12:59, 13:50, 14:36, 20:32
Claim (What): 05:30, 07:16, 08:05, 08:26, 17:31, 20:16, 20:25
Wondering: 06:43, 22:58
Pausing: 06:43, 12:23
Repeating: 07:19, 13:17, 15:13, 20:55
Defining: 04:47, 07:30, 17:07
Confirming: 08:22, 09:05, 11:11, 07:47, 20:13, 21:14
Commending: 09:36
Challenging: 08:44, 09:43, 13:26, 13:50, 15:16, 16:35, 18:57, 19:13, 19:57
Growth: 11:29
Helping: 12:15
Confidence: 15:38
Agreeing: 16:13, 19:41
Sentence-Finishing: 17:48
Truth: 17:59
Sharing/Telling: 21:36
Puzzle Pieces: 22:43, 23:46
Justification (Why): 10:08, 14:07, 20:40
Interrupting: 18:33
Skate or Die: 20:10
Aporia: 20:40
Closing: 22:35
Re-Cap: 24:30
HTHIC: 24:47
Preaching: 26:33
Bike or Die: 27:00
End Screen: 27:26
--
Note: Add 35 seconds to these timestamps if listening to the podcast version of this talk.
Audio Only: / s-rbtxxhpyfja
Graphic design provided by Prateek Lala.
Audio correction provided by Philipp Grzemba.
Intro and Outro Music 'Electro Fight' by Kwon, provided by RUclips.
Links to References in Video:
My talk w/Drone Footage: • Street Epistemology: L...
My talk w/Jacob: • Street Epistemology: J...
** Add foreign language captions w/RUclips's community contributions tools **
Mistakes: "I may have lost my point." It probably would have been more accurate to say "lose my place"-I'm not sure why I conflate those two words. Targeting "moral epistemology" is but one premise in Boghossian and Lindsay's book 'How to Have Impossible Conversations'-there are several. I highly recommend familiarizing yourself with that book.
Recorded w/Go-Pro. Edited w/PowerDirector.
The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
#StreetEpistemology #MoralEpistemology #Magnabosco #Morality #JordanBPeterson #Guidance #MetaphoricalTruth #Humanism #Philosophy #AnthonyMagnabosco
Skip ahead to a desired point in the talk:
--
Teaser: 00:02
Start: 01:24, 02:43, 05:21
Rapport: 01:38
Crack!: 03:08
Questions for Me: 03:13, 23:57
Topic Selection: 04:05, 05:49
Clarifying: 04:38, 08:17, 11:15, 11:50, 12:19, 12:59, 13:50, 14:36, 20:32
Claim (What): 05:30, 07:16, 08:05, 08:26, 17:31, 20:16, 20:25
Wondering: 06:43, 22:58
Pausing: 06:43, 12:23
Repeating: 07:19, 13:17, 15:13, 20:55
Defining: 04:47, 07:30, 17:07
Confirming: 08:22, 09:05, 11:11, 07:47, 20:13, 21:14
Commending: 09:36
Challenging: 08:44, 09:43, 13:26, 13:50, 15:16, 16:35, 18:57, 19:13, 19:57
Growth: 11:29
Helping: 12:15
Confidence: 15:38
Agreeing: 16:13, 19:41
Sentence-Finishing: 17:48
Truth: 17:59
Sharing/Telling: 21:36
Puzzle Pieces: 22:43, 23:46
Justification (Why): 10:08, 14:07, 20:40
Interrupting: 18:33
Skate or Die: 20:10
Aporia: 20:40
Closing: 22:35
Re-Cap: 24:30
HTHIC: 24:47
Preaching: 26:33
Bike or Die: 27:00
End Screen: 27:26
--
Note: Add 35 seconds to these timestamps if listening to the podcast version of this talk.
--
SE Resources: tinyurl.com/abm-se-resources
SE Community: tinyurl.com/abm-se-community
SE Discord Server: discord.gg/sKap3zM
So cool that you take the time to do this Anthony, much appreciated 👍
During the talk I was asking myself: If a deeply immoral person was to accept that the christian God exists, couldn't he not just become a devil's worshipper to have a justification for his continuous immoral behavior?
It's contradictory to say God doesn't exists.
@@taowaycamino4891
Who says God doesn't exist?
@@PascalRibaux You never heard that said? So it is contradictory to say there is no evidence.
I enjoyed this great conversation! I hope one day we meet again.
Thanks again for participating in the talk, Justin. I thought you were a great conversation partner who sees the importance of respectful communication. Maybe we could do a video hangout where we play our video and comment on it. Just a thought. You know how to privately reach me now. Cheers.
Justin, I believe that you are right that there are people who are innately moral and others who are not. But I don’t believe that the religion really changes people as much as they think it does. Because there are some very religious people who are still very immoral.
@@teresaamanfu7408 How can one be innately moral?
@@teresaamanfu7408 My question to that is, if there is no moral force (no god) then what constitutes morality, who decides what is moral, and is it possible for someone to be innately moral if morality is in fact subjective, as well as being influenced by outside sources?
@@user-nv9vn8fm1d
Why couldn't someone be innately moral?
This is basically the exact kind of pebble in my shoe that led me to deconvert. I took an ethics class, and realized that secular morality could be far more objective and reasonable than anything religion offered me, and I couldn't help but think why I was never taught *this* in church.
Because if you were taught this in church, that pebble would have been in your shoe sooner. Churches use apologetic principles to keep people from doubting on these topics. It's only when you realize they're not actually providing an answer that the pebble seems to become noticeable.
@@curtis1905 like a thorn
My question , so you used the term any religion here and my question is how many religions do you know ?
How is secular morality be better than any religion ?
@@gamingdragon1356 I personally know a lot of religions. They aren't that great. Buddhism is probably the best, but it doesn't really compare to secular morality. But I don't think that was J M's point though. J M was talking about experience in the Christian religion. If you have an example of a religion that is superior morally to secular humanism you can suggest it right here.
Does anyone else get the shivers, when you think that there could be people out there, who only behave well - because they believe a god is always watching them?
Just me?
It's not just you, this has always bothered me as well.
And it never made any sense to me, ever since I was kid... Because if I only behaved well out of fear, god would see through the deception immediately. He, of all people, is someone my pretended goodness won't fool at all. There is no difference between a bad person who does evil and someone who pretends to be good; their equally ugly and cunning nature will be transparent to a supernatural entity who sees all.
If, on the other hand, you're innately good knowing no one is watching, THAT is really something. It's integrity, supremely virtuous and outstanding -- always doing the right thing without the big surveillance camera in the sky.
@@DISCO-munication it amazes me, that people are willing to say stuff like that - especially if they think there is a god & they have an immortal soul.
I'd have thought, the idea is that your religious teaches you, calls you to behave decently.
But then I don't get why a god - who we're told knows everything, is responsible for everything, knows what's in you heart etc - would also bother to watch you.
He knows what you're doing & what you're going to do, too.
And yet, he'll still watch you?
Isn't that like deliberately watch the repeat of a show that you were completely responsible for?
I'll stick to my Atheism, humanism & stoicism.
I’ve experienced that first hand talking with Christians: many times their reaction is something like “well, why be good if there is no punishment/rewards?”
They began to entertain very nihilistic ideas very quickly
it's not for me. Not a shiver but still a cold feeling, anguish and mostly despair in human kind that some rely on some book to know what is good and what is not.
But to comfort me and you believers could be way more hypocrit and wicked than those who don't.
The book we have to rely on are technical one like a motorbike...but some assume (isn't it way easy and hyppocrit than to see the world) that there is a manual to live. Despair and ... btw you're right it make me a chill in the spine.
First of all they tel(or have been taught) that they know all the things and explanation of the words when they just don't have any clue other than is it because is it: god allmighty, allelulia, amen, achkbar, om shanti shanti...
got one colleague that stated this argument of why he is good, for the sake of respect to each other i sustained myself asking him questions like "are you afraid of being around me?" "If you wouldn't believe in god, would you harm me without a second thought?"
This poor guy. You don't need a God to behave, you need the idea of what is right and wrong. Apathy and kindness is all you need.
I think you mean empathy, not apathy.
@@brianharper1611 yep, they should edit that, it's easy enough.
I like how you stopped and said "I don't know, i think I'm a little lost" steering the conversation, but continued to let him drive it.
Sanguine I like how he asked, “How can I help you?”
If I follow the idea of SE, this is done to prevent the other person to feel like you, as the one interviewing, are _leading_ them somewhere or pushing them.
Christopher Hitchens said it best: "Let someone name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this [challenge] think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?"
More points here: ruclips.net/video/GQcGXBo8HP8/видео.html
mzcosty.... Hitch asks both of those questions. As far as the evil act question, he always would add...you’ve already thought of one.
@@andreadiamond7115 Very true, In the video he goes into more detail with examples of evil acts only done in the name of religion.
But as much as I miss him and his unique wit I wonder what he would think about the SE method of dialog and if he would have tried it himself
@@andreadiamond7115 so I ask can that evil action performed in the name of religion be done by a disbeliever as well ?
Gamingdragon yes it can. But the point is that people have this intuition of what’s right and wrong. And religion is a very good tool for corrupting that intuition.
So a person who would normally act morally needs a corrupting force. Like cults, MLMS, superstitions, religion, abusive relationships, and so on
@@ninjaturtletyke3328 nah , there is no institution which corrupts you except your mind . As such , a christian follows christianity for heaven , same as a muslim that is material gain as such when the europeans colonised countries was it for religion ?
I think it was for wealth or well material gain . Un less you can shut off your greed you will still do all bad things as an atheist .
This is reminding me of putting eyes on the coffee machine to make sure employees put some money in the coffee can to buy more.
Maybe we should all believe in the great scowling coffee machine in the sky. 🙂
@Rick There are things like an honesty box, where people but money for the coffee. Some people doesn´t pay, or pay to little. There has been studies that shown that if there are a picture of eyes near the coffee machine, rather than just a paintiong of flowers or something like that, people tend to pay more. It´s about the subconsious feeling of being watched that makes people act a certain way. I think that was Beej Price was trying to say.
@@Asa...S That's fascinating.
Fake eyes on the coffee machine, fake eyes in the sky.
I just read about this experiment in my college level psychology textbook! Really good analogy.
I am doing a part time stint as a Census worker (i'm retired, but, thought I could do some good). I use Anthony's intro techniques to break the ice so I don't look like "A guy from the Feds is here...." I have always been able "to talk to anyone" per my wife, but these videos have improved me.
I'm doing the same thing. Im kind of curious how you're applying this.
@@theTYTAN3 Well, I start out with why i'm there but, look for something that might be of common interest. Beautiful flowers.... What are you doing to that car....I've only marked 2 sites "dangerous" so far. I wear a mask and one guy said " Wearing a mask around here can get you shot....GET OUT". he also had a trump sign in his yard and another one about our governor.
Glad to hear that!
@@magnabosco210 I'm honored that you replied! Just watched your video with Paulogiia. Agree totally. Try to understand the persons viewpoint and not (per Ray Comfort) trap them in word games. I look forward to more of your work.
I love the moral epistemology, I think for Justin one level down would be, "all people should act as though there is a good, a definitive good."
I hope to see more conversations on truth in morality!
I don’t need the threat of hell or the promise of paradise in the afterlife to act morally. This is the ONLY life I have, why would I not want to be kind, helpful, loving, and compassionate to others during the only life that either one of us has?
Kudos for Anthony being patient enough to wait almost 15 minutes for this person to finally admit (even if he never said it this way) that what he was really saying was, “The threat of forever being punished in a lake of fire is a great way to make people behave. Just believe and act like you will be tortured for all eternity if you are immoral and you will be a better person in order to avoid it.”
Man, hearing the conversation reach the different crossroads was awesome.
My family wasn't religious when I was growing up. My mother instead told me to "never do anything that you wouldn't want your grandma to find out about". I honestly don't know how much of my good/bad behavior was impacted by those words. But I am in my 40s now and I still remember her telling me that. I think that much of my better behaviors came from a worldview that my mother modeled for me. She was a social worker and worked really hard for over 25 years to improve the lives of people she encountered. My wife now says that I do things like that, seeing a need someone has in a moment and doing what I can to step in and help them however I can. I would label myself a Humanist now, and an atheist only by definition but not really as an identity. It's true, but it doesn't say anything about who I am or my ideological framework for a good life. Anyway, thank you for this talk, it got me thinking about my own path from a secular non-religious childhood, to deeply religious Christian, to Conservative Judaism, and now to better informed Secular Humanist.
Bryan Klein What a great story. Thank you for sharing that here.
This conversation is fascinating. When I turned away from the church, my morals became so much more stringent. I became a much better person, not only in my actions, but in my internal being, when I chose to live by my own moral beliefs rather than living by a book and fear of eternal punishment. This conversation was extremely interesting.
As an Agnostic husband to a Christian wife I have to say I've learned more about myself and belief having conversations with her (many heated!) than talking to Atheists/Agnostics like myself.
I've come to understand that spiritual or religious beliefs give some people something higher than ourselves and our egos to surrender to or live for. I've stopped trying to get her to change her mind and started asking myself why I want to change something that makes her happy even if I do find it foolish. I now just believe that the only thing wrong with religious ideas is when they try to influence politics or policy and try to have the their beliefs held higher than the rest of us. We can all use (Atheists too) a bit more humility and a bit more listening and less talking. Great video. Cheers
Yeah but a lot of those Theists take it too far...
The cult of Creationism for example, nothing good can come from this cult.
They want to dumb down children and have mythology taught in schools .
I'm having a discussion with a Christian online and we recommended 2 books to each other to read and so we can follow up on it. He recommended an apologetics book by CS Lewis and an apologetics book by Timothy Keller whereas I recommended 'why we believe what we believe' by Andrew Newberg and a 'the moral landscape' by Sam Harris. Both are neuroscientists and cover morality. He was shocked that I didn't promote any atheist books. I'm with you on beliefs about morality being a key foundation for beliefs in gods.
The guy actually bought the books whereas I already owned and have read both the books he recommended. - part of my deconstruction.
Well, they might not be atheist books, but they are atheists’ books.
@@seanbirch that is true, the the book about beliefs is written by two advocates for religion, despite being atheists themselves.
You probably didn't learn anything true in those books.
I'd like to ask Justin about a scenario. The reason one child doesn't steal is because he is afraid of being caught. The reason another child doesn't steal is because that's not how he wants to treat others. Which child, in Justin's view, is more admirably moral?
[Hidden question: Is true morality based on fear of being caught, or on caring about others?]
It was definitely the morally good non-believers in my life that played a big part in my deprogramming. And also the fact that the immoral stuff that went down in church communities was as (usually more) toxic than in any other type of community.
Whether real or not, what if the God that Justin prefers people to believe in is also a God that prescribes behavior that is unethical?
Exactly. Is god good or really the evil one?
@@ole9421
The Bible is replete with, what a rational person would consider to be, sordid behavior by its central character, God. How does Justin account for this and does Justin think his God's petulance and arrogant acts of violence should be commended and modeled by humans?
Personally, my faith shattered when I realized the actions I was taking ( that were in accordance with the Bible) were unethical
@@lifefindsaway7875
Thank you. That's precisely what I was driving at. Are you able to provide a specific example of your behavior and the accompanying Bible edict?
@@lifefindsaway7875 if you don't mind me asking- what exactly was it that made you reflect and realise that your belief was causing you to be unethical? I'm simply someone who is interested in religious belief, never being religious myself, and growing up in a country with around 5% regular church attendance (Australia)
What specific immoralities would Justin commit if he were convinced there was no God?
He said it would probably start with lies when nobody is looking, for him.
@@matth9359
Ok. Justin's answer still requires more detail.
@@jeffersonianideal Why? What exactly would specific description of acts that he would hypothetically commit give us in terms of discussion?
people are more likely to cheat if they think nobody's watching, so if you believe a god's always watching, that helps with moralitiy in this particular regard. I haven't read about lying specifically but I expect it'd work the same.
The issue I see here is that power positions in the church could create unethical actions as well. Everyone seems to ignore that.
Holy Wars, exorcisms etc,
I like the tictac you out on the sign in to your left around 19:00. I had to go back to make sure I wasn’t just seeing things.
Anthony is the type of person I want to have a chat about my beliefs with even though we probably agree on most things. I feel like it would just be really awesome to have a deep dig into my beliefs, I wish my friends were as into street epistemology as I was.
You can do this style of questioning on yourself! More interesting engaging with other people, but constantly being open and questioning your own beliefs if a life long quest. Hope u find a fellow seeker man.
Anthony, I'm very impressed that you managed to stay on topic! ;)
A few times during the talk I caught myself wanting to ask a question which would have led away from the initial topic.
One question I wish you'd asked Justin though is whether or not he could think of some time in the last few years (not as a small child), when he wanted to do something "immoral", or contrary to God's law, and didn't, because he thought that God was real.
This was actually a really good conversation. Honest, thoughtful questions. Listening to the answers.
Great talk, Anthony. This one really hits home for me. When I was a young believer, I had many of the character flaws that an average human might have. I would brag, exaggerate, or lie to get out of sticky situations. "No I didn't eat all the cake, no I didn't steal my brothers dollar bill, no I didn't try to look down that pretty girls shirt, etc." I had a lot of guilt and low self esteem and no one to turn to for advice. But, the older I got, and the more I questioned my god beliefs, the more secure I became in my belief that I was actually a pretty decent guy. I feel I became more honest and trustworthy, traits that I would value from friends and family as well. When Justin realizes that doing the right thing even when no one (including God) is looking is preferable to only doing good because of the fear of God, he will find much more inner peace.
7:16 and 8:08
Is the Bible the absolute best source of morality mankind has ever devised? If it could be demonstrated to Justin that the Bible contained immoral instructions, would Justine still hold the claim that "everyone should act as if God were real"? If the Bible weren't inerrant as it applied to morality, would everyone still benefit if they acted like Christians?
Supplemental question: Suppose a person believed in God and believed in the Bible but misinterpreted one or more of the Bible's moral codes. How is it unequivocally beneficial for a person to believe in God if they are, in reality, doing something bad but are definitively convinced they are doing good?
Bringing some great questions...
@@cloudshad0ws
Much appreciated. I am humbled. An an E.E. Cummings line serves as a template for my curiosity.
"Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question."
I think Justin is more married to the concept of God than the Bible. It didn't even come up during the conversation. You made a good point here but it is also strongly dependent on how important the Bible is for Justin's believe.
@@marcelh7864
A very suitable area of exploration. What type of questions should an SE practitioner ask Justin during a subsequent session in order to find out how necessary biblical doctrine is to someone such as Justin? Justin is, not only an admitted believer in the Christian God, Justin also insists others would benefit from the ideology put forth by his Christian God.
A sample question might look like this: Justin claims there is "value in religious rituals". How would Justin know how to properly adhere to the fulfillment of religious rituals without an established source for religious doctrine?
@@jeffersonianideal He also says that the rituals may have different value for different people. If I recall correctly. To find out how important the Bible is just asking him for the tenants he believes the christian god compels people to practice should be enough. Where do these tenants come from? What if the source is incorrect or not reliable?
In the end both of our inquiries will lead to roughly the same point of exploring the Bible.
It could be an interesting topic to explore but I feel that for Justin it's more about the threat of punishment of perceived wrongdoing not necessarily doctrine. He already acknowledges that there are good people who do not believe or believe differently. I'm not an SE practitioner and I don't know Justin so I could also be totally off here.
Respectful, non-aggressive way to explore others beliefs and identity of themselves as a good person. Good talk!
Great conversation once again,always nice to see guys cool enough to discuss their beliefs with someone who questions them.
When he said he would lie more when nobody’s watching, that was really interesting. Wouldn’t *he* be still watching, and as such, what about seeing self-esteem as a possible foundation for morality?
Claim
Reasons
Method
Morality
Self Esteem
Plausible. Not convinced yet, but you've piqued my interest.
LOL what an absurd claim that someone who believes in the Christian god would lie more if they discovered that God wasn’t real. As if Christians don’t lie.
I love the argument for morality in a god belief. especially a Christian God belief considering how wrathful and hateful that God is. Its the one belief that is used so often to completely disregard whole sections of society and treat them as lesser people.
I also like how it took Christians 1900 years to act morally and shape the society we live in today. It’s almost like the Bible has nothing to do with our current morals.
Good convo bro.. always enjoy your new uploads
The nicest things I've ever done happened while no one was watching...
Or were they?...........🤔😂
Such as?
I'll leave it up to your imagination. 😉🤣
"I would lie more when no one is watching" ... So who is he lying to? Himself?
Wonderful talk! So happy to see another episode in these times. I'm not sure if you're still attempting new interviews given the situation. If not, might I suggest this is a perfect time to do commentary voiceovers on some of your talks like you've done before. I have always loved those and tend to learn a ton about the method from them.
Matthew Stauffer Thanks. I was thinking about pulling some of my “not good enough for RUclips” talks and discussing them with other SE content creators where we point out things.
I'm REALLY looking forward to this one. I just recorded a podcast episode with a Christian Youth Minister friend of mine and discussed christian v. secular takes of 'goodness'. I can't wait to see how your convo went!
Joshua Daniels Nice. Feel free to drop a link to that here if you’d like.
"What's the relationship between God, the Compelling Force and Morality?". Man, Anthony is such a badass. I see Justin, the subject on this one, commented on here, too. Right on, Justin. You have interesting views and those views were great to hear.
I just love these conversations that Anthony Magnabosco conducts. I wish that I could have the same back and forth with a friend of mine who tends to get VERY defensive and escalates his views with raising his voice, repeating his convictions and using threatening hand gestures to attempt to intimate and overpower what I say. In many ways I enjoy his company, but forget about trying to have a hypothetical and rational give and take conversation. So frustrating.
Les D Try “Would you be open to hearing some ideas that might make our conversations more productive and engaging?” They may not even be aware of the effect their behaviors are having on you. I’d try that approach first.
I enjoyed this conversation! I had a couple of thoughts about it I'd like to share.
When Justin was saying he thought people would be more moral if they acted as if God existed, it made me think of government surveillance. Some people say the government is watching and listening to everything we do. Whether this is true or not, if people behaved as if it were true, they may be less likely to do things that are illegal or things they may be embarrassed about. I think this is the basic concept Justin was trying to convey. If God is watching, we can never get away with anything.
When Justin said he may lie more and be generally less moral if he concluded God was not real, I felt a little sad, but not surprised. I know lots of atheists and most were raised Christian. I have seen some atheists go through a rebellious phase right after their deconversion, before settling down into what I would call a more reasoned atheist position. From what I've experienced, I think there is a tendency in some people escaping religion, especially more fundamentalist religions, to want to do all the things they've been told are sins that will send them to Hell. This doesn't apply to all atheists leaving religion and I haven't really seen anything similar from those who have always been atheist, but I think it is almost part of the "recovery" process for some to test the limits of their new worldview. I suspect it is at least partly the religious teaching, that atheists are without morals, which leads to some of this behavior.
Yes whereas if people had grown up with a healthy relationship towards it, they may not have needed the "phase"
Anthony: If your reasons were proven wrong would you change your position?
Theist: Hmmmm....?
@Rick Prove what wrong?
I like your style Anthony. Pointing toward a persons personal morality is a massive leap in this process.
I've been following you since near the beginning of your journey and I think this is one of the best interviews. Thanks Anthony for all you are doing.
Howie Fox Thanks. I almost didn’t upload it because of all the editing work. Glad I did though. I appreciate you watching my videos over the years.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Justin: If we are talking about behaving in a way that aligns morally with the Christian god of the Bible, how do we decide which parts of the Bible - a text written more than a thousand years ago - are morally or ethically applicable to behaviour in the contemporary world?
One of my favorite videos of yours yet, I think.
I’m sure you can see the flaws in his thinking, but rather than point them out directly, you got him to consider a counter point, and sometimes that’s the best you can hope for, as he will have to reach that conclusion on his own.
12 minutes in, Justin makes his claim. Wow! This should be a good conversation
Two questions for the young man.
What good morals exist in Christianity that isn’t also included in the acceptance of basic wellbeing?
What Christian morals are not included in wellbeing and why should those be accepted?
Prior to engaging in a discussion with someone about God, the term “God” must be comprehensively defined.
jeffersonianideal He identified It as the Christian God.
@@magnabosco210
Thanks Cap'n. I was making a general comment for those engaging in the SE process. Had Justin declared his belief in a God with no omnipotent, omniscient abilities, a deistic entity unable to intervene in human activities, Justin's take on the matter may have been decidedly different.
Yep. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
Any other process is doomed to yield garbage.
@@Dummy257
Thanks for that. The line of questioning an SE practitioner is apt to ask should likely be based on the type of God their interlocutor believes in.
Objective reality is such an important topic to talk to with believers.
I agree with you Anthony that it might even be a huge pilar.
I don't know when this practice of having interlocutors repeat back the question started, but it's so smart!
24:59
“If a person can realize that they would be just as good of a person without thinking that there’s a higher power…”
A person can arrive at the same place Mr. M. is describing if that person believes their personal God is a deistic God instead of a theistic God.
However, if they also believe in karma, all bets are off.
If you believe in karma you would actually live better . Because performing good deeds keeps your mind at ease and happiness = mind mainly .
@@gamingdragon1356
Not necessarily. Can you think of an example where believing in karma could do irreparable harm?
@@jeffersonianideal Nope , I think believing in karma is the best thing you can believe as such it will keep you doing good deeds while make you avoid doing bad deeds .
@@gamingdragon1356
Before I go on, I want to make certain I am understanding you correctly. You see no negatives whatsoever in the system of belief known as karma?
@@jeffersonianideal yes
9 minutes in. It sounds like he listens to a lot of Jordan Peterson
Just finished the talk, and with his example of lying as a moral flaw and citing fairy tales having forms of truth in them without being literally true, I think you're spot on that this guy is very much into Peterson.
Esther Yep, the last couple minutes solidified it for me. I’d be interested in seeing the specifics of what “moral” means during the next conversation. Considering this idea of tying an objective morality to forms of truth, that gets pretty murky when these “truth forms” are subjective.
I'm at 7:21 (he's just given his claim that "everyone should act as if God is real") and I'm searching the comments expecting to find this, lol
Totally. Very Petersonesque type thought process.
Bro, the second he said "I don't like that question." about wether or not God is real, I got Peterson flashbacks.
Wow I loved this one, you both went right into it.
Wow, this conversation was really great. Thanks to Justin for volunteering his time for this chat. Asger Folmann sent me here.
Great talk, Anthony! Love the content. I thought your response to the "Dramatically True" statement was kinda funny - "What the hell does that mean?" Though I think the best part was the pause when he was talking through how he thinks he would lie more if he discovered that the didn't have good reason to believe in God. You could see he was really thinking and that's awesome!
Do you think going the route of "what if there was a Christian who acted immorally?" would be a sensible line of questioning? Basically saying that does believing in God really make people moral? I dunno - that might be too "attacky" especially for a first discussion.
InfoSec Jeeves Hey there. Thanks. Hmm. That might be a sensible line of questioning. Maybe a slight rephrasing to “Is it possible for a Christian to act immoral (based on your definition of that word)?” could soften it. Thanks for watching.
Sounds like the punishment/reward approach to morality.
That was a great talk, though a bit confusing at times. I think it went well and hope to see Justin again soon.
This was fun and interesting. Well done both parties!
This is one of my biggest irritations about organized religion. It's not enough that they believe nonsense based on terrible reasoning, but that others can't be moral unless they too believe the same nonsense.
Me as a Jordan Peterson watcher: "If this dude says 'self-evident' or 'tenable' I'm outta here"
How's Peterson doing lately?
@@fukpoeslaw3613 - Absolutely insufferable, as usual...
@@reuteratwork8983 I like that Peterson guy. Although he can utter complete nonsense quite often. But I like him. He even inspired me to hire a cleaning lady for my room(s).
@@fukpoeslaw3613 - Peterson is an idiot & an ass, but if you want to like him, you go right ahead...
I really like this guy :) he seems really open to new information and willing to explore his beliefs. Really refreshing to see.
Love the vehicle/words vs meaning analogy. Nice giant tic tacs in the background, good edit. I feel we could substitute the word Santa for God in this convo.
How can you base your morality on a book that condone slavery?
@Rick Of course, but how is that related to my question?
@Rick - K, how about this: "How can a culture that has concluded that slavery is immoral base its morality on a book that condones slavery [...& genocide...& stoning to death for cheating on your husband...& stoning to death for talking back to your parents...& the murder of an entire civilization's first-born children, to punish the parents...& some more genocide...& killing off a guy's entire family, just to test his faith... & etc]?"
I looked away just in time to miss the fade in and had to double-take at the tic tac sign.
You are so good at what you do Anthony..........👍👍👍🇬🇧🏴
How high you "score" on a moral test would depend on which moral code the test adheres to. Naturally Christians would score higher on a test that adheres to Christian morals. They might not score higher on a utilitarian test for example. That's the thing about morals. They're subjective.
That's what you get without God, a relative, subjective standard for morality. Moral absolutes and oughts come from God and God alone.
@@michaelscott873 Yes, like I said. Any world view informs a moral system.
If God is real there are indeed moral absolutes, but just believing it doesn't make it so.
I would have took it a little bit differently. When he says "i think people should act as if there is a god" i think that's a good foot in the door moment. Because what if people do not believe in the same god? What if people believe in the same gob but have different views of that god? Either way can we actually even test the validity of these methods to morality? And if our testing is using "secular" or rational methods to determine a positive output... doesn't this mean we can skip the god/scripture part and go straight to our testing method?
Because morality is sort of how i left Christianity. It was mid 2000's and gay marriage was a highly talked about topic. The bible is pretty clear that homosexuality is wrong. So my moral compass differed from what the bible was saying. And when i looked at gay couples who were together, they were not harming anyone any more than a straight couple might. So my means of "testing" the morals came back with a different answer than what the bible told me. And that was my jumping point into exploring what Christianity really was all about and it's history. Because blindly following the morality of scripture has no checks and balances, has no way to stop it from going wrong. Its really really dangerous.
Yeah, the 1st step in learning what the word morality means, is to keep distance from theists.
They would have you think it convoluted & echelons above reality, when it's very simple & practical. Morality: shorthand for the quality possessed by social creatures: shorthand for a sense of empathy & a sense of equity: we care about each other & about what's fair, it's what makes us social, all else is articulation.
_And when i looked at gay couples who were together, they were not harming anyone any more than a straight couple might. So my means of "testing" the morals came back with a different answer than what the bible told me_
The problem is that this methodology is flawed, because testing whether gay relationships are harmful or not does not actually address whether or not they are moral or immoral according to the biblical standard. Humanism is indeed interested in the well-being of people, but biblical morality is interested in obeying God's commandments. Which means you had already decided that humanist standards take precedence to the Christian ones.
@@El3ctr0Lun4 The thing is morality based on the bible is a blind obedience. Its not about if you can test if something is indeed immoral or harmful, its just a "do it because i said so" mentality. Because no matter what you witness, no matter how you feel about something, no matter what facts might say... you must ignore _EVERYTHING_ else and just blindly obey the bible.
I would not say i had decided to use "humanist standards" however when i evaluated biblical morality. I was taught god loved us, wants us to be happy, doesn't want suffering, etc etc etc... all the "good" attributes people put on god. So, i then looked at things through this standard. Was god truly being a good and just and loving god if he wanted good and just and loving people to suffer only because they wanted to love someone of the same sex. I saw no good reason for why god would want homosexuals to die. So i could not blindly follow the bible anymore. To follow "gods will" on this when everything else was telling me "hey, these people just want to be happy like everyone else and get along with their lives" would be akin to if i was a citizen of North Korea and, even tho i saw no good reason for it, i followed along with the Kim families laws blindly. Because that's what god turned into, a dictator. His reasons for why homosexuals should not be allowed to be, and why we should not be allowed to wear two kinds of fabric all boiled down to "because i said so". And i could not sacrifice my intellect for blind adherence.
@@__Andrew I think most people, religious ones included, fundamentally care about human well-being, which means we generally like to think that this is in line with what God desires too.
Many devout religious people will tell you that God is indeed a dictator and we are his slaves - the words "God's slave(s)" are used incessantly in all Eastern Orthodox Christian church services for example, and divine command theory is still very prominent in Christianity.
The less intense religious people try to find ways to reinterpret the Bible and religious teachings to make them fit with their own desire for human well-being and freedom.
_"And i could not sacrifice my intellect for blind adherence."_
Commendable.
Anthony, I have to say I raised my children without religion. It was up to them to choose what they wanted to do when they became adults. I can say, unequivocally that my children are decent moral people. I also believe if we were not raised within the confines on religion, and waited till we were 25 years old, minimum, and religion came knocking on the store as a salesman, a livery large portion of people would decline.
This guy is definately coming back.
He seems like someone who follows Peterson quite a bit.
Jordan or Jesse?
19:02 God is real because He caused that sign in the background to become a giant box of tic tacs. The Universal sign of truth. My God is an AWESOME God! :)
I scared myself! For a second there I thought you were doing a live stream!
good job anthony you did great on this one youre the man
I just couldn't do SE with someone taking this stance. I view religions as largely having originated to teach morals to ancient humans. Now religions are just so outdated and are holding back the better systems for developing and teaching morals that exist in our society.
It would be difficult for me too, but might be what leads to a breakthrough with them.
@@matth9359 Oh, let someone else do it (Anthony and his astounding levels of patience). I'm just saying I couldn't do it. And if a breakthrough is what you're looking for, I suggest trying multiple approaches.
Don't shortchange yourself. Of course you could. However, it might require at least a mild sedative.
@@jeffersonianideal No, I really view religions, particularly christianity, as the problem with modern morals. And it's this attitude that religions are necessary for morals that prevents people from seeing how bad they are. I couldn't go through a talk like this without saying something like "hasn't it occurred to you that you are the one who has been corrupted by satan?"
@@akl561
Just curious, under what circumstances could you see yourself engaging in Street Epistemology as a practitioner?
"I imagine that peoole who were more religious would score higher on morality"
Yikes forever!
No, that's a great testable prediction! It can actually be used to reason with smart religious people who have never explored atheism or secularism, such as this college student here.
@@turdferguson3400 I wasnt saying yikes forever because it was a bad test, rather that I know the results aren't in favor of religion.
@@whatwecalllife7034 ahh ok
Yeah -- like, if religious people were more moral, we would see atheists over-represented in the penal system...oops -- well, certainly members of religious organizations would be much less likely that the general population to commit, say, sexual assault of children...oh, oops again -- if there's any evidence that religious belief produces more moral outcomes, I've yet to see it...
Atheist don't have God to lean on when they consider acting in an imorall way just their own strength of character
Did anyone else notice the box of mints superimposed over the sign in the background around the 20 minutes mark?
yep. Giant tic tacs!
I absolutely love the steel Manning that goes on in these conversations.
Are you planning on listing the interview you mentioned in this video about how black people can be racist without having the institutional power?
Racism doesn't need institutional power. Just ignorance.
Personal racism & institutional racism are 2 different things
@@reuteratwork8983, but institutional racism often takes root in personal racism, so it's very hard to distinguish one from the other.
@@themore-you-know - No, it's not, actually -- personal racism is just that, it's when an individual person expresses racist beliefs [beliefs that their race is superior to others, or that demonize other races], full stop -- institutional racism, on the other hand, is how a social structure operates, where certain races are given preference, in terms of laws & employment opportunities -- sure, you can try to claim that, for instance, it requires the personal racism of an individual cop to pull over & ticket more minority people than white people -- but the cop can only do that, because an institutionally-racist system doesn't do anything to stop them -- so, even if there's one minority cop whose personal racism motivates them to pull over & ticket more white people, they don't affect the overall system -- despite that one racist minority cop, the social structure still remains racist against minorities...
@@reuteratwork8983, so if I understand your position correctly, you're telling us that institutions were birthed without any actions on the part of any individuals? Is that correct? And you're telling us that institutions are not run by individuals, is that correct? And if, for instance, one Arab HR person favors other Arabs and systematically hires such candidates over any other ethnicities, your position is that once again that head of the department would not be institutionalizing racism through his own personal racism... is that your position?
What do you mean by true? Lol come on man. Why do people like jordan peterson and others need to redefine the word truth. Its incredibly dishonest. I understand that their are different usages of the word but given the context you can understand what he meant
Great conversation. I think it would've helped to define 'moral' first. It gives him a lot wiggle room, but I think you got there another way so I think this was an excellent example of getting to the belief structure from other angles
I think a good substitute for the word "acting" would be "behaving" morally. That way it has less ambiguity, not having to wonder which kind of "acting" etc.
Here is to hoping he keeps his God belief so he can keep being a "good" person.
He’s just stated his claim and I am guessing he’s a conservative Christian dominionist and he wants to see Christian sharia law instituted.
He’s wrong about morality and religion. The studies are done.
He’s a dominionist but he might not actually realize it. He’s using much of their reasoning, just not talking about legislation.
I didn’t get the sense that he was a “dominionist.” Usually Christians of those stripes are super conservative Calvinists. His answers were way too wishy-washy for that.
I think he was realizing that he was just parroting what he had been indoctrinated with. I hope he talks to Anthony more.
Samuel Stephens maybe. I’m not a mind reader.
nitehawk86 Yeah, I hope he comes back. He seems like a good guy.
pretty honest dude..i respect that
This whole great talk was circling around the effect of "snitch culture". The belief that we need someone looking over our shoulder to behave in a moral way. Religions, high influence groups, the mafia, all depend on it to keep control. I was raised Catholic and we did it to ourselves in the form of confession.
Interesting take. I’ll have to watch it again to see if that theme is there.
Jordan Peterson sold this guy a load of bs.
How? I've been a big fan of JP, and at worst, it helped me leave religion.
@@mipsuperk jp is a Christian so im not sure how he led you to leave religion. He makes the argument that the guy in this video makes.
@@mipsuperk heres a link where jp argues for religion
ruclips.net/video/FmH7JUeVQb8/видео.html
@@mipsuperk he even goes a step further and claims that anyone who acts morally is a theist even if they don't realize it consciously. He makes a lot of unjustified claims on religion. He's a smart guy but on the topic of religion he shows us that nobody is immune to bias and fallacious reasoning.
Him, and hordes of others.
This was a good one
If you need the fear of a god to make you keep you moral you have already the the moral high-ground.
Great talk. Bright young man.
Amazing as usual
Religion in early civilization helped people feel order and remove anxiety in a chaotic world.
As we have "learned" basic things like people are just different colors because of "pigment" and Sun exposure (science), not because God made them or was punishing them for some reason (religion), or that Hell is not a firey pit below us (religion) and that Satan was attacking/ punishing us when there were eruptions on a flat planet, rather the Earth is round, has a core, plates with fissures etc (science), we have realized over generations that "SCIENCE" is the one TRUE religion.
Scienctific theory and its pursuits explain the world in ways that are universal.
Genetics explains why there are gay people in every race, not that this God or that God or Satan made those individuals so as part of some punishment...
Great talk
I chose to ask God for forgiveness 1 year ago. In His compelling force, my depression and hate of myself left me and in came power and confidence. I filled myself with a purpose based on what God wants for me (goodness)and I follow a path based on Christian principles. I help others and that helps me.
So cool!
Awesome !
Commenting so that the algo finds more people
What we Christians mean by good is moral perfection, not just being good at times or most of the time. So, when we say that “No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), we mean that no one is morally perfect. Now square that with the command to "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) and you will be close to getting the whole picture of how it's only in God that goodness (perfect moral standard) can be discerned.
And I agree with Justin, I will be less moral or more sinful (becoming more selfish, egotistic, less caring, less faithful in my relationships, etc). Sin is an offense against reason, truth and right conscience. So, we have a sinful nature - our reasoning is not perfect, which means that we can't know every knowable truth, and we also don't obey our conscience sometimes. Everybody does that, everybody sins, nobody is good.
I think lying is a tool - it's only bad when the consequences are bad. You can lie in order to make a surprise party for someone, and the person can love or hate that surprise party; but I don't think it's as simple as just "lying is bad, period".
You should get a laser engraver and engrave something related to SE on the puzzle pieces.
You can get them with printed words or images on them, but it’s more expensive.
lol @ 19:05 with the tic tac box over the placard in the background
Anthony Magnabosco, I understand your appeal at the end, and I wish I could. I am working toward it, but I am terrified that I’ll lose my wife and kids if I do it wrong or too soon. I am hoping I can work toward it with her little-by-little, learning about how we know things, until the final question, “how do we know that God exists,” comes up, and then I can help her discover that we may not have good reasons. But I come from a broken family, and I can’t morally afford to inflict a broken family on my kids.
Johnny Quick I can totally appreciate the delicate nature of your current situation. Hopefully my appeal is heard and acted upon people who are fortunate to be in a position where they can come out. Thanks for watching.