This was not smart | Cateln Stark V | A Game of Thrones | Obsidian Nights Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2020
- The start of the war of 5 kings may have started right here when Catelyn Stark kidnapped Tyrion Lannister in the Riverlands in Catelyn 5 of A Game of Thrones, The first book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series!
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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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I love how Catelyn thinks to herself how unready her people are for war right before starting a war by capturing Tyrion.
She has reasonable well thought out ideas/thoughts but then does a complete 180 and goes through with the exact opposite of what she just thought through. It’s bizarre
Tyrion's confession at the Vale is hysterically funny!!!!!!!!!!
Catelyn was her father's heir until Edmure was born. Politics is in her blood. Her ambition however did not serve her or her children well. Sansa should not have been as naive as she was if Catelyn took the time to teach her the ways of court. Specifically southern courts. Never mind the fact Arya was too young to even go to court. Her ambition blinded her to goals that were not realistic. She and all her children paid the price. Oh and though Tywin loathed Tyrion kidnapping him is one of the dumbest things to do. He's a Lannister and Tywin wouldn't take that slight. Did Catelyn forget the Reynes of Castamare? Apparently she did. Letting Jaime the favored son go again stupid. She had a one track mind and blinders on.
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THAT THING ABOUT HER BEING HER FATHER'S HEIRESS. I've always thought her to be politically savvy thanks to that fact. She's Ned's opposite. She was raised to rule but ended up giving Riverrun's seat away. Whereas Ned was raised to follow but ended up receiving Winterfell after his brother's death.
Maybe all her time spent in Winterfell mothering babes froze her political savvy. 🤦🏾♀️
@@trfaison Probably.
Great point about her being his possible heir, however I’m not convinced it was a definite thing in their patriarchal society. That may have been greatly contested since Brynden was alive and male. Lands such as those, especially a great lords’ house, would demand a male to inherit. At the very least, Catelyn would have to be married to a suitable person to claim ladyship of the house, but I don’t think she would be the ruler. Dorne is our only concession to this rule. Please note, I *could* be wrong, but that is my viewpoint.
As for Tyrion, y’all heard my thoughts on that in the podcast.
But Jaime...Jaime is another point I could argue in-depth. Her grief was RAW at that point. She was desperate and alone with it for the most part. I could go on (as y’all know 🤣) and make more political points, but I’ll leave that to MJ’s future episode to cover.
Catelyn is a lot like Cersei when it comes to her children. She will do anything to protect them.
In no way am I saying these were the right moves, but I can understand her motivations and think it’s important to put yourself into the character’s shoes when reading. ✨✨
PS I love Jon, so I would happily rake Catelyn over the coals about him any day of the week. I’m not blind to her flaws, of which she has many. As we all do. 😊
PPS I don’t think Catelyn ever believed her children would marry outside the North. Being married to Ned, she was aware that his loyalty was to the North and the North alone when it came to his ambitions. She didn’t prepare them for the south as it was never going to be in play or so she thought.
Do you think Ned would have died if he hadn’t had Cat telling him to trust Littlefinger?
Hoster Tully took his eldest daughter on his travels, because Edmure is much younger than Cat, For a while Cat was Hoster's heir and he treated her as such.
If Cat wanted to find the person who would wreck House Stark she should have been looking in the mirror not at poor Jon lol
Oof, that burn...
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Poor Ned. If she did as he planned we could have seen some northern forts in action.
Poor baby Ned...
What did Ned Instruction her to do ?
@@hunniescravemeh Have two lords who ended up in the war tent with Rob each send 100 archers to the first fort any southern army would try to pass, Moat Cailin. Galbart Glover, Helman Tallhart. As for the rest. Fortifications at white harbor for lord Manderly. A close watch on Theon Greyjoy for if there is war they'll need ships.
@@Winter-Alpha-Omega What is this about?
@@strategicmessager9659 I don't recall, bruh.
This was a year ago.
Thinking about it. She and Cersei are so similiar. Both started a war (in way), both cause deaths of their children.
"I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are.
" indeed Tywin. Indeed this can be said about Catelyn too.
Yeah right..thats why sansa reminds me of cersei
@Libby none..... Cat is worse! She actually makes Cersei seem like a great mother lol.
Catelyn: It must not come to war
Catelyn Five Minutes Later: Kidnaps the son of the most powerful lord in Westeros and jump starts a war
@@sfjlfkjsdlfkjds but before the war startet (when food wasn't scarce), the Lannisters were at least as powerful as the Tyrells
I actually think GRRM has almost everybody act out of emotion. Robert is all impulse. Robb declares war out of emotion. And you brought up Stannis, but the logical thing for Stannis to do would have been to find common cause with Renly and take out the Lannisters... he didn't because of his hurt feelings. (I don't say that to diminish him, but its clear that he was nursing a lifetime of grudges that impacted his decisions), and really, there would have been little harm in just letting the North go back to being its own separate kingdom, if it also meant getting their help taking the Iron Throne. Ned's decisions are all based on what he feels is honorable or on his love for his family, Jon Arryn, and/or Robert. Tyrion and Jaime base their decisions on emotion all the time as well. Even Tywin's decisions can be traced back to his anger at growing up with a father that was laughed at.
Come to think of it, pretty much the only people I can think of who base their decisions purely on pragmatic concerns... are all at the Wall. Probably because they can't afford to do anything else. But even then, there's Thorne.
This is a Valid Point that is not acknowledged enough in this Fandom . Good on u for voicing it
Jorah out of Love for Dany and longing for a home, Jon when almost running away from the wall, Jaime does everything he does out of love for Cersei (becoming a kingsguard, pushing bran etc)... yeah
Ohhhh it felt so good... In the moment! But those consequences... I felt that across my throat... Too soon?
Loving the series the with guests! Cant wait for next week!
Last time I was this early Ned Stark was still alive.
Your guest has such a clear mind! Love her
Thank you for the kind words! 😊
Indeed, the first one. I admire her thoughts not guided by émotions.
There are male characters who act by emotions like Samwell, Marq Piper, Pate (from AFFC), King Robert, or Prince Oberyn
I agree but no matter what you say. She always talk about gender, always and does psychologism at its best....
Actions like this are why I consider cat more of a plot device then a character in book 1. It's partly early installment weirdness but nothing she does makes any sense when you think about it for more then 5 seconds. She forces jon out of winterfell(she had decided before she knew of the night watch option), She goes south rather than sending someone else and leaves that north in robb's hands... a boy of 15 she was left north to teach because he "wasn't ready". Keeping in mind she expected ned to take her south when pushing for him to accept the job as hand. She takes a ship there but the King's Road back just to run into tyroin to bring an inevitable war foreword. Tells nobody making her tully family completely off guard which is why they lose so badly early. This is character who should know better, but doesn't because of the plot needing her to do this. Goes to lysa who sent an ultra secret message because she doesn't want anyone to know she's suspicious or send the message ... putting a massive target on her sister's back.
We're told she's one thing but the text supports none of it. She's not even shown to be out of her mind with worry over bran or anything of the sort. She's just stupid.
I agree. I think it's pretty inconsistent. But it kind of makes sense. She's really protective of her family and is ready to jump up to defend them. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is what you mention about her not giving her Tully relatives a heads up when going to the Vale. Also, leaving Rickon and Bran at Winterfell to go south to fight with Robb was not the smartest idea. At least, I wouldn't have done it.
Idk. Her husband if hand of the King. Best King friend. It was a secret the whole trip to the nest thing. Her family was not that in danger. Twyin just send some dudes to fuck the farms and villages. It does makes sense you know. Littlefinger lived with her. Her childhood friend. And makes sense that she took the kings road on the way back, she could go by to see her family on the way. If she didnt have meet tyrion.
@Darkone539.... Exactly! Well said 👏👏
Thanks Gray, nice to see something else pop up on my feed tbh.
Kidnapping Tyrion was the dumbest thing Catelyn could do because anyone who ever heard of Tywin Lannister knows what she did was kick a sleeping lion in the nuts when Catelyn Tully plays the Game of Thrones her family dies
That gave me the order of the green hand vibes
The question is why she did that. Please think think think.
Catelyn is ambitious and I don't see that as a fault. But it's a truth. She wants her children to reach the highest stations they can and make the best marriages they can. If the series had gone differently (like Jaime and Cersei not making incest babies), it would have been interesting to see how that ambition played out in her dynamics with the Starklings.
I think something that should be considered about Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner here is what options she has. She was hiding her identity and Tyrion outed her. She only had one elderly knight to protect her for the rest of her journey. If she hadn't used her position to redirect the attention to Tyrion and making him the subject of interest, what would have happened to her? Anyone in the inn could have followed them, done away with Rodrik, and taken her prisoner to ransom to her father. In a way, she needed to take control of the situation. Another option could have been to put herself on the mercy of any group of soldiers so they could take her back to Riverrun and she could get a better escort. But otherwise, the moment Tyrion recognized her, her options were limited.
Et voilà! An great interpretation that goes beyond feelings. Bravo.
you're just wrong.
what would happen if Tyrion outed her? Most likely little or nothing comes from Tyrion outing her - this is why Tyrion did it he just thought it was funny it wasnt't serious.. Especially since she is in her FATHERs lands which is not in war at all. And then she's wife to hand of the king. No one would of tried her unless their extremely stupid.
Very good. I really loved this episode. Just the right ratio of analysis to summary. Keep it up.
Great to see more Catelyn content
Gray Lady returns
JUICE TIME!!!
I should’ve mentioned, since this was the first introduction to the Freys of the Twins, there’s an interesting wordplay with JofFREY of the twins.
Nice catch.
I get why on its face, the idea of Ned having Cat w/him in King's Landing would be seen as an advantage based on her knowledge of southern politics. However, we should keep in mind that Cat did go to King's Landing, and during her brief time there she divulged the news of Bran's attack and info on the dagger to Varys and Littlefinger. The absolute WORST people to entrust secrets to. In fact, she even thinks to herself that she doesn't trust either of them while she's revealing the information, but at no point does she stop revealing the information. So I'm not convinced her prolonged presence would've actually helped Ned. I think it would've hurt him because her short time there already had.
On a separate note, Cat giving way to her emotions about Bran's attack wouldn't have been an issue if she'd listened to her advisers and sent someone else to King's Landing to speak to Ned. I can't even give her a pass on that either. It all traces back to Catelyn in the end.
But Varys already knew.
This girl was awesome !!
Gray Area!!!
Thanks for having me, Gray. I had a blast! ✨✨
Great Show. Great Guest. Thanks 4 tha Juice Gray!
Love your podcasts MJ
GA!!!
Catelyn was the one that toll his husband to trust litter finger. 🤔 She was no help to anyone.
One of my favorite episodes.. your co-host is awesome (melinda).
You know, I feel like Catelyn is a lot more like Arya than people realize. This sort of emotional, impulsive, vigilante-ish action is something she and Arya do a lot. Both of then are always ready for action. We always think of Arya being unlike Sansa and Catelyn, but they really do have a lot common when you think about. Makes sense to me that Arya didn’t get it all from “The Wolf Blood.”
Totally, I think that Arya's cunning and resourcefulness comes right from Catelyn. I don't think she got it from Ned at all. I've always thought of it as a Tully thing. The similarities between Brynden and Arya are massive!
We actually talked about this a bit off air. The first part of this chapter, when Catelyn is remembering her childhood with Edmure, Lysa, and Petyr. She’s having playful and mischievous memories of feeding Petyr mud pies, playing in the rain, and learning to kiss. She’s not remembering a ladylike childhood like Sansa has had. She was much more impetuous and carefree.
Even how she looks as she rides along thinking of these things is ragged and wild and she doesn’t care. All of these things are much more Arya than Sansa.
Plenty of Arya/Catelyn, Sansa/Ned parallels.
Hey sweet summer mother great video
Not only did she set neds death in motion but she got a huge body count for not going home to her three yr old and seven yr old cripple. She had instructions from her Ned to help save the north instead she takes tyrion and goes to the vale. At least Cersei can play the game of throne.
Every clever supposedly character ends up doing stupid things...Tyrion, Catelyn , Cersei ....
The craziest part to me about what happened is Tyrion probably would’ve ended up helping Ned figure out it was littlefinger had Cat let Tyrion go to KL. Tyrion is a good guy at least at this point in the story or thinks he is and thinks he is kind of honorable so if/when Ned showed he didn’t like Tyrion I could see Tyrion going to the hand and tryin to talk things out and eventually like Jon Ned would’ve seen Tyrion is not a bad person and probably tell him what he’s learned so far and that’s all Tyrion would need to hear to tell Ned that the dagger wasn’t his it was the Kings and littlefinger was lying. Then the Starks and the Lannister’s would’ve bonded a little and hostilities wouldn’t of been so high.
So needed this today, thanks gray xxx
Great chapter analysis! And I agree with the idea that GRRM portraits female characters (for the most part) as making decisions on an emotional level. However, I feel is mostly from the Starks: Robb slept with Jeyne because of the news of Theon and Winterfell, Sansa telling Cersei of Ned’s plans because of the love for Joffrey, and Jon...ohh Jon, not only deserting to join Robb but also after the pink letter, asking the Night’s watch and wildling to go to war against the Boltons.
The Starks are very emotional characters. More than the Lannisters or Danearys.
omg I really wanna do one but like 0 social media presence
Do it anyway 🤪
You gotta start somewhere
Pffft, I have social media just for my personal life. My Twitter isn’t solely dedicated to ASOIAF; I just love the series. Go for it! It is fun.
The song that Ed Sheeran sang in the show, "Hands of Gold" was the threatening one about Tyrion in the books.
Gray thanks for taking your sweet summer child to her fantasy land. Needed this with this election going on.
❤️🐉🐉🐉 I needed this today 😁
Love tha break down thnx for your time Gray.
Catelyn Tully did more to ruin the Starks than any of the Lannisters
Tywin Lannister greatest weapon Catelyn should kept her alive and sent her Stannis then he would be dead
I feel like Ned would have brought Tyrion to KL to answer his crimes. He wouldn't let his son's murderer get away either if he was in Catelyn's place. But the manner of doing would be different. He's not as hot headed as her.
Will your channel be doing mostly podcasts and discussions or will you be returning to the video essay format?
Gray!!! I need help!!!
The entire Game of Thrones series is out on 4K UHD Blu-ray and I’m so conflicted about buying it... idk what to do.
Oh my God.... what a dilemma.
What about hunger all around the world
I'm pretty sure Marillion was changed to the guy that was ordered to have his tongue cut out by Ser Ilyn Payne for that song he made up about Queen Cersei killing King Robert.
I love her, Dany and Margeory. No matter what you say. And it is not a matter of GENDER. It's about their history.
Because I hear that a lot from you. I know you don't like Cat but Please be pragmatic. Please
The smart thing that Catlyn did was... NOTHING.
She ruined everything!!!
Lol yup 👍
I think if Catelyn would've gone straight to Kingslanding with the captured Tyrion, everything could've been fine. Tyrion would face a trial by the King, the only "proof" they had would defend Tyrion and point to Littlefinger.
But imprison him in her sisters castle led Jaime to raise an army and bring Westeros one more step closer to war.
Notifications gang❤️❤️
I think this chapter solidifies my hatred for Catelyn. She manipulated Ned into taking the job as Hand by appealing to him for Robert's safety, because the Lannisters were too dangerous for Ned to leave his "brother" surrounded by alone. Yet when her husband and daughters were alone surrounded by Lannisters, Cat seizes a Lannister? I know Cat admitted that she "let go of" her daughters in her heart, so maybe we shouldn't be surprised that she put them in mortal danger w/out a second thought but still...HOW DO YOU DO THAT? Not only did this tragic decision thrust her family into incredible danger, but it started a war that the North wasn't ready for because CAT FAILED to do any of the 5 things Ned told her needed done to prepare the North for said war. And that's not even accounting for the chaos that ensued in the Riverlands as a result of Cat taking Tyrion. She has to have the largest body count in all of ASOIAF. Her conduct is inexcusable. The Greenhands said it best: Catelyn Tully is the worst person to ever live.
It is not a manipulation. They're married lmao and they have 5 children. They were in the same side
@Ashley.... Facts!!!
Well said ma'am! 👏👏👏
Simon Silvertounge
Jon also lost it on Allister Thorn.
Simon Silvertongue
How can a person who has spent any period of time around the level-headed Ned Stark and the diplomatic Hoster Tully do such dumb things?
✌ hey
Wait what when did tyrion kill zinger?
in the books he sends Bronn to kill a singer, Symon Silver Tongue for threatening Tyrion to sing about him and Shae to Cersei
@@gamilahassan2223 thank you so much, i missed that entirely! Appreciate it!
Speaking of shady singers, the one in the nights watch that Arya kills in bravos for deserting Sam and Aemon
she would still been blind to littefinger and the same thing would of happened if she was there.
Thank you so much for continuing this series, it gives me so much joy! Love from Germany
I love the scene but shouldn’t it not have been possible for Tyrion and Cat to be at the Inn at the Crossroads at the same time?
We have to give that over to our author playing it up to fit his narrative needs. The same could be said for the fact that Jason Mallister and co. make it to the tourney with plenty of time to compete, but Yoren rides hard and fast to get to Ned and report the kidnapping, arriving after the tourney ends. Narrative need outweighed logic on this one as well. 🤷🏻♀️
GRRM isn’t perfect, but he writes a damn good story. ✨
It was a rash decision that she made to capture Terrion. It was foolish. She didn't think about her husband or what could happen. She had other choices but she chose to use her name and status to use others to get revenge for her precious Bran!!! She feels entitled just as she raised her kids to feel entitled. Those Bannermen didn't even ask for proof. Maybe they did but I dont remember rt now. Seems to me they would need proof of some sort but she is Tullys daughter, the wife of well respected Ned Stark so no need to question her. Her family comes first. As if she has never done any wrong. And I hate how she treated Jon. I still wonder if Rob is even Neds!!! Eeeeew, I love to hate her self centered ass!!! Shame, Shame, Shame!!! Ok I'm done!
As for the guys not showing emotions, you are obviously reading the wrong books. Couple examples: Jaime is ALL about emotions. Him killing the Mad King, Him pushing Bran, Him going immediately after the Starks when they arrest Tyrion. Theon Greyjoy is ALL about emotions. Theon sacks Winterfell trying to gain his family´s love. Jon as you said, almost left the Night´s Watch. Before, he helped Sam out of relating to him on an emotional level. Helping Sam had nothing about logics at the start. Sure, Jon then finds out Sam is smart and can be of use but Jon did not know that at first. Robert Baratheon is ALL about emotions. Should I go on and on lol Hell, you are talking about Hoster and his brother who quite obviously are pretty mad at each other and throwing away all that should be logical or political solutions :) The Blackfish should have been with Edmure helping to raise him to lead the Riverlands. Much more so once Hoster gets seriously ill. By logic, he should have called his brother to come help his son take charge. However, up to his death bed, Hoster has serious issues forgiving his brother. Rob Stark gets killed because....he let himself be led by emotions and got into bed with someone he was not supposed. Worse, he then decided to go all honour and marry her. By cold logic he should have kept the deal with Walder Frey. Loras and Renly are very ill prepared to rule anything yet Loras is fuelling Renly out of love. Maergery and Olenna are actually the thinking logical masterminds over there. Also, not the show version but if you think about Oberyn and his lady.....he died because of emotions, she displays amazing composure and remains a pacifist.
There are SO MANY examples :)
Touché! I happily concede the point.
@@ohhhmindy4380 Tons of praise for your videos :)
I dont like Kat either but lets be fuking real any northern house would marry their daughter to the heir of the bloody 7 kingdoms.
Catelyn is smart, resourceful, determined, and righteous. But, she is not good at strategizing her moves. And she makes emotional and rash decisions that she justifies by her logical and pragmatic thought processes.
She is not a favorite character of mine. She is one of the most interesting, though.
We see where sansa gets it from, both CAT and Sansa are terrible people
💯
What a useless fish
I think you should talk about Ramsey Bolton next.
Catelyn is one of the most unbearable characters in the books, every decision she makes is an absolute shit show.
Catelyn's mind goes 90 to nothing. Even when she's emotional, her mind is working hard so her choices seem unthought out when their really not.
Girl, your hatred for Catelyn astounds me HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I knew you disliked her, but your beef with her seems to be massive.