Sansa Stark As Wicked As Arya? | Sansa III | A Game of Thrones | Obsidian Nights Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In A Game of Thrones the first book in The A Song of Ice and Fire Series, The Series that Game of Thrones is based on we get the third pov of Sansa Stark, Sansa III Where Sansa is in Kingslanding watching her father sit the iron throne and suprise suprise arguing with her sister!
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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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Sansa thinking that Poole doesn’t have a chance because she is a steward’s daughter does not make her a mean person or petty, but intelligent and a realist and show how much she understands what she has been taught. This is compared to medieval times and that was the reality of it. To judge GRRMs characters by today’s standards is one of the big reasons why DnD got so much stuff wrong and half the “fandom” agreed with them.
I think you're correct. House Dondarrion is a major house of bannermen compared to House Poole, a minor house
I bet if Sansa orchestrates Little Finger's demise you'll be saying "muh gurl Sansa"
Man, that would be so cool and actually believe she will be the one destroying Little finger. Not like in the show, but still the one behind it.
Sansa will but it can't be like the show, because in the show,when LF died,there was no political impact/repurcussion of his death at all,while he's continuosly been shown to be planning and plotting,Sansa needs the Eyrie,the men and the hoarded food,so she will plot to take down LF down,she already questions him,and notices when he doesn't offer any explanation,she knows what he's doing to robin,yes Sansa will take down LF but it'll be much more intricate than S7. I don't like show Sansa at all,whatever tf d&d turned her into
@@aahana4931 I agree
@@aahana4931 I agree
Still so hard to imagine that..how will she pull that off? So far from the excerpts of TWOW, it looks to me that Sansa is not even at LF's level. Although she may accidentally betray his plan, she's already mentioned to Randa how LF's the one who bethroted her to Harry the Heir although LF told her not to. She also kind of dropped the Alayne mask when she showed she knew about Jon Snow, and such. Okay, after typing that, I can see how she could accidentally be the downfall for Littlefinger.
Once Sansa opened her eyes, around her and Tyrion's wedding even it started.... I began to like her as she grew. And she went from weak and having to do and trust only options... she grew wiser and smarter! She endured so much pain to try to get home , and keep winterfell once she was there ! I grew to respect her as admire her strength. She was always a bit on the snooty side but as a kid she was a brat
in the show maybe... but the show kind of merged two storylines in one with Sansa. in the books she's still in the Eyrie, no Stark is at Winterfell yet.
Gosh I must be the only one, but absolutely disliked Sansa in the show. Think about it, they made it so that she only changed when bad things happend to her. Not once but multiple times. Her wolf had to die, her father had to die, she had to see her aunt get killed and get raped and then finnaly, finnaly she became this female hero everyone was rooting for. I absolutely hated it. It disgusted me. The storyline of Sansa in the show is a poor imitation of her in the books because she gets part of jeyne storyline. I cannot wait for WoW Sansa, because that is the Sansa I am intrested in. I might not like her personly but I can appreciate her. Honestly I find what they did to her in the show disgusting and a insult to Gearges story.
@@lemya8120 honestly, I cannot say i am in the knowledge of what DnD were thinking, but probably they went to the point where she is in the books, realized that now she must go somewhere, gave her jeyne's storyline because it is truly an important one (and they had dropped the character because there were too many in s1 or whatever), butchered it a bit (the North was ready to raise arms against the Boltons to save "the Ned's little girl" you know, a reason for this arc...), and then, because Sansa is one of their favourite characters, made her a strong woman who don't need no man like a bad fanfic, completely ignoring the rest of Jeyne's storyline, where GRRM made her deal with the trauma.
I remember someone posting that DnD had obvious favourite characters, and those they disliked they neglected, like how tyrion suddenly became the dumbest dude alive, or how arya suddenly did not have any of arya's characteristics, but neither did she have a faceless man's.
@@mcanta2898 completely agree!
I love Sansa!!!
Sansa is my least favourite character! actually she's so annoying to the point I just couldn't stand her at the end! I love Arya!
✌
'I like Sansa best when she's not being Sansa' 😂
Sansa is way worse than Arya. Arya never betrayed family for personal gain. I can think of at least 3 times Sansa did.
Let alone that, the whole initial incident with the butcher's boy should tell you all about her character at that point in time. I'm not talking about when she was questioned, which was a pretty delicate situation for anyone in her position; I'm talking about the fight
She stood by and did nothing as Joffrey cut open the face of a completely innocent boy, then had the nerve to get mad at ARYA, when Joffrey could have killed or seriously injured her if any of his sword swings landed.
Sansa |was| a total bitch. Not a naive idealistic young girl, a straight up horrible person.
Edit: Scratch that, Sansa still kinda is a bitch. She knows that Sweetrobin is being poisoned by Littlefinger and the maester, and has done nothing to help him and is actually encouraging the maester to continue doing it
Mike Junior the incident with Mycah I was initially willing to forgive because she had been drinking wine and she was still fairly young but then later Sansa says this is A Storm if Swords to The Queen of Thorns and Margery “Jeofferry is a monster. He lied about the butcher’s boy and made Father kill my wolf” also Littlefinger is poisoning Sweet Robin and she is totally cool with this. Also Jeyne Poole who is supposedly her best friend dissapears. Later she thinks “I forgot to ask about Jeyne” then never thinks of her supposed best friend. If my best friend suddenly vanished and I never heard from them again I’d be distraught
You're all correct!
It's baffling to me, when I see ppl totally defending & making excuses for her despicable behavior!
I think Sansa is so naive, narrow minded and a snob because Cat is like that. She had always paid more attention to Sansa because she's beautiful and obedient, Sansa has been praised all her life for being innocent and dreamy. Those were people's expectations from her.
Arya on the other hand has been distant with Cat. She's not in her mother's thoughts as much as Sansa is. And Bran is Cat's favorite. We know Cat has favorites in her kids. Arya has grown up amongst her brothers and the common people. Her best friend was Micah, not a lady's maid like Jayne. The fact that Arya is not pretty plays a huge role in what people's expectations are from her. She looks like a boy so she's often treated like one. And with an absent mom like Cat she had more freedom to grow wild and free, unlike Sansa who's like a caged songbird.
I just want to point out that when Arya shows up in Sansa's room with Ned after their fight, Arya isn't just continuing to argue with Sansa like you guys said. She went to Sansa to apologize. She was genuinely contrite enough to want to fix the mistake she made in the heat of the moment, in her anger. It was Sansa who refused to accept the apology, instead continuing to be cruel to her, and not even thinking for a moment Arya also deserves an apology, despite Sansa being way more in the wrong that Arya was as not only was Sansa not willing to tell the truth in the privacy of their own tower with people that knew the truth, Sansa also low-key threatened her with her line about someday being queen, and then wished her dead. It's almost remarkable how Arya was able to get her own emotions and view of the situation in control enough to feel contrite and want to apologize and fix the problem. It's even more remarkable that Arya just continued to stand there and take Sansa's behavior when she was trying to make things right. Not to mention she tried to comfort Sansa despite this only to be called stupid and ugly by her. So no Arya was genuinely trying to fix things and apologize and wasn't continuing the argument, Sansa was the one trying to continue it with her pre-teen hours long freak out. By the way, in no way is this hate on Sansa for the people that want to jump on my head because of what I said. This is me pointing out that Sansa is an immature child who doesn't want to accept responsibility for her actions. This is me pointing out that Sansa has flaws and makes mistakes and me saying that her behavior here wasn't okay despite being a child. This is me saying that while Arya shouldn't have reacted in the way she did, she did genuinely feel remorseful and ashamed enough to want to apologize and fix the problem and that she wasn't the one continuing that fight, it was Sansa.
omg, I completely agree. i sometimes feel people forget this. And yes being a child does mean you can make mistakes, were only human afterall. But its part of your growth to adulthood to learn from it and also make appologies. Being a child, simple enough isnt an excuse, its a reason. I made lots of mistakes in my own childhood, I could be mean to others or act very immature, still got scolded for it and still had to appologise. That was how my parents raised me, and I sometimes still continued to act this way but I knew it was wrong and learned from it in order to become a better person. So to all the Sansa lovers, please don´t hate on me. but just don´t close your eyes for what she did was wrong and turn it around on only Arya. ´´Its just not fair´´, as Sansa likes to say ;)
Sansa is horrible. Her age doesn't excuse either. For all the Sansa lovers, that girl is trash lol.
Sansa would be LUCKY to marry Hodor! This chapter is infuriating! Sometimes I have to skip the early Sansa chapters.
I love this collaboration! Thank you Mandy, and thank you GA!!!
I hated Sansa Stark back then and now
Absolutely!!!
Reject Sansa. Embrace Alayne.
LOL seriously her Alayne chapters and arc are far superior than her other chapters. I don't love Sansa or hate her, I'm critical of her though, so it's surprising how much I've become excited about further reading her chapters and exploring her arc. She has the potential for great growth and I can't wait for her to reclaim her autonomy, save herself, and kill Littlefinger. :D
Why would anyone embrace Alayne. She's a product of Cersei & Littlefinger. She becoming more despicable every day.
It's March 2021, where's TWoW, George?
She's a spoiled kid in the start. Nothing to see here.......spoiled rich kid, naive and shallow..........like so many celebrities we worship
Maybe unpopular opinion: Sansa acts like a normal 11 year old girl, who makes understandable decisions for a girl her age and status and it's not her fault, that a lot of her dumb and selfish decisions have these huge unforseeable consequences
Thank you Lady Gray for always giving us the best juice to get us through this the longest of winters!!! 😊
Gray Area!!!
Gray Lady returns
Sansa puts Goffrey and Lores on pedestals because they are pretty. She looks down on Yoren because he's ugly. But Yoren went out of his way for no prize to warn Ned about what Catlyn had done and to save Arya from King's Landing. He is the only knight at heart that Sansa has met
Shes a young girl who judges based on looks but when she grows up she eventually realized that she cant dp that she says joff was beautiful but a monster and realized tyrion was ugly but was kind to her.
@@blacksheep9834 I know she develops and learns as the story goes on but book 1 Sansa is empty headed, living in la la land. And yes i know she's just a little girl but Arya is even younger and when you contrast the two it makes Sansa...difficult
@@breezy3392 no shes annoying as fuck i cant blame you when ppl says shes highly unlikeable i understand but it seems like they never see her growth either.
My Grace you're blessing me(feel blessed) well us lol with two feast in a single fortnight. But I have to admit I like Sansa I blame Ned & Cat for her mindset she's the first daughter of a liege Lord & Lady she was made to be brought up different.
All the Starks left are evil in a way, the world ate them up and spit them out like they did Ned but instead of dying with honor like Ned, they chose survival and wickedness. Sansa is the new Cersi/LF, Arya is the new Hound/Jaken and Bran is the new Blood Raven. Jon is the only one who retained his morals and he died for it and then lost his birth right for it (show).
Something that has always made me extremely nervous when reading Sansa chapters is Lady's death... The only Stark without a living direwolf at this point. Can't help but remember Greywind being taken away right before Robb's demise. Not to mention that it seems clear that all of the Stark kids are wargs.
I really like Sansa’s character because hers is the story we don’t usually see. She’s the “fair maiden” in the epic tale that needs rescuing. In that kind of story we generally follow the rescuer(s), and the lady that needs rescuing is just a goal, basically an object.
Sansa’s story shows what happens from the perspective of the captured princess. Also, she’s a child that has always conformed to what society expected of her. She is exactly how she was taught to be. Also, her “betrayals” of her family are being stretched. Failing to tell the truth for her little sister to protect the boy she likes (a Prince she’s supposed to marry) is not outlandish for an 11yr old. And she accidentally betrayed her father; she had no idea that Cersei would orchestrate a coup (and frankly her father didn’t see that coming either).
Realistically, everyone isn’t going to be a violent bad ass. Put a different 11yr old girl in Sansa’s place and they might behave just as she did. Arya rejected Westerosi femininity, but Sansa can grow into a feminine strength. She doesn’t need to fight, or kill, or have magic powers.
I enjoy all your podcast on the GOT books!! Very insightful!
I'm a little surprised that you said that Arya was way more wicked that Sansa, because I really don't see it like that at all. Arya may not always follow the rules but she's a really good person. Especially at this point in the books, but even further on. Her circumstances, her anger, her will to survive doesn't make her wicked. Sure she's had to kill, but that was almost always a means for survival. Even Arya killing the insurance man for the HOBAW was a means for survival as she knew she'd be forced back onto the streets or possibly killed if she didn't carry that out. The only other instance of a questionable kill Arya has made was Dareon, but he certainly wasn't a good person and he was a Night's Watch deserter, which are boogeymen for Northern children. Arya was doing her duty as a Northerner by executing him. She even looked him in the eyes and talked to him before judging him guilty. If we don't blame Ned for enacting Northern Justice, we shouldn't be blaming Arya. And before people jump on me claiming that Arya had no right because she wasn't Lady/Lord of Winterfell, let me remind everyone that not only did Arya think she was the last Stark at this point in time, but Jeyne was being forced to marry Ramsay and she was forced to use Arya's name. No matter what by the laws of god and man, Arya was made Lady of Winterfell with that marriage by proxy. So yes, Arya is Lady of Winterfell by proxy, and her execution of Dareon was symbolic of her rise in power if she so choose to take it. But despite Arya killing as a means for justice and survival, Arya is a good and moral person who has always taken Ned's morality and words about ruling and life to heart.
i think what they and sansa meant by "wicked" was not "morally wrong", as you and I would take it, but as "going against the rules, spoken or not".
there is nothing wrong with stealing a pie, especially since they are nobility, and technically had right to the pie if they just asked. but the act of stealing is against the rules, and therefor wicked.
Arya does a lot of things, and I agree that she is rarely in the wrong, at least morally, but even at that age, she does not act like a lady should, plays with commoners, "steals" from the kitchens, runs away from lessons and royalty, and those are, for sansa, "wicked things".
going to whorehouses, keeping company with courtesans, learning to fight and kill, all those are "wicked" for what they are, not for the reasoning behind them.
it's wicked in sansa's black and white, story obsessed view, not arya's realistic, survivalist view.
@@mcanta2898 This is very true. :)
Y’all made this chapter so much fun. I say the 2 of your together again soon, add Quinn to it too. Question, that you 2 made me think of, what if there isn’t just suppose to be a Stark in Winterfell but also on the wall at all times. Is there ever a time that there isn’t a start on the Wall?
My mother told me that if I had nothing nice to say then I shouldn't say anything at all. So, rather than comment on Sansa's abominable conduct in this chapter, I'll instead focus on two smaller details. First, the idea that what constitutes "old" is subjective.
"Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two..."
If twenty-two is what counts as "old" to young people in this story, then it gives me hope that Prince Lewyn's paramour is actually much younger than we're led to believe. This means we have more options for the identity of this mysterious person (*coughs, Joanna Lannister). It could also mean the Prince himself is younger than we think (maybe Doran was older than his uncle like Jon is older than his aunt Daenerys).
The second thing I'll mention is this quote from Ned: "I'll make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong". This strikes me as potential San San foreshadowing, and it kills me to acknowledge that my favorite character could end up with my least favorite. And before rolling your eyes, go back and reread the Sansa chapters in which The Hound touches her. She ALWAYS describes his touch as surprisingly soft, gentle, etc. The brave and strong attributes speak for themselves.
But I think Sandor is dead. Arya left him to die
@@ultimatekunochi6577 He's the grave digger on Quiet Isle. Or at least it's heavily intimated that he is.
@@ashleyofnaath how?
@@ultimatekunochi6577 Read the description. Compare to that of The Hound. Draw your own conclusions. Also keeping in mind that his horse, Stranger, was on Quiet Isle as well; and it is said that The Hound is the only person who could ride Stranger because it wouldn't break for anyone else.
Please Don't let SanSan happen. Sansa is a 11 year old and Sandor 28. We all don't like how creepy Jorah loves Daenerys. I sincerely hope the relation the hound has with Sansa is because of his lost sister (read killed by Gregor)
But then again I see a clear reference towards beauty and the beast.
GA!!!
I get more excited for Winds every time I think about the absolute mummer show that was Season 7 and Season 8. It’ll be so nice to have actual character development.
Now I kind of want to see Jeyne Pool and Beric Dondarrion end up together.
Man yesterday I was bout to hop on twitter like where the obsidian nights @ but realized it was Tuesday 🤣
This is what confuses me: Every one says Sansa was young; so we shouldn’t hold her responsible for her actions, but what of all the people who died because of her. People she knew, people who was there her whole life, people who cared for her, took care of her,...
All this happened because she is a brat, and doesn’t want to go home. She laid the groundwork for her family’s downfall
THANK YOU👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏.
Ned caused his own death by confronting cersei, and littlefinger is the one who turned on him.Robb and catelyn also made plenty of screw ups that led to their downfall. So sansa did screw up but its completely ridiculous to blame everything on her when there were tons of others at fault.
@@louisamay9615 You are correct; one little girl didn’t cause the war. Ned didn’t explain to his children the danger they were in, but their household had just been attacked by Jaimie. The Mountain was ravaging the Riverlands, and the Queen had her dire wolf killed; just because it was on hand. The signs were there.
Sansa is the wards daughter even if she did not want to marry joffrey she still had too anyway bc its her families decision and ned didnt trust them but still went anyway unprepared, how can u be mad at someone for not knowing something they were never taught. she was 11 she wanted to stay someplace but her descions inadvertently got others killer but did she want them to die dud she say kill them no she did not start the war her mother did by KIDNAPPING A HIGH LORD. not her fault she mad bad choices at 11 and got abused and mentally scared for years after and became a much nicer and smarter person in her alyane chapters they can hate a young spoiled princess who doesnt know anything about how cruel the game of thrones was but they can love child murders amd rapist and serial killers and people selling people into slavery. like tyrion, sandor, khal jhogo, jaime, jorah and many more but we love them tho 😡😡
@@blacksheep9834 Calm down; I see your view, but all noble families teach their children family first. Ned already told her the betrothal was off, and they already attacked her family in the streets of King’s Landing. She knew these things, and still ran to the Queen; who had her dire wolf killed, and told her of her father’s plans. Regardless of what she wanted to happen; everybody died. Her intentions were selfish, and even though she is young, she is not stupid. She had to know that there would be fallout. What did she think would happen?
Liking and understanding innocence and ignorance while death and horror is stalking and knocking is so very difficult. This podcast especially NymsShadow's perspective (that she is a very sheltered child) help me understand Sansa a little better, but it be hard tho.
💞 thank you for giving me hope thru the long dark endless night of my life lol 💞
The biggest cause for the difference between Sansa and Arya is that Sansa has a clique... a group of best friends all of the nobility... daughters of knights and stewards. Remember the knights bring a little bit of the South with them as the North didn't traditionally have knights. In order to become a knight, you have to show your prowess in battle somehow, right? ... and the battles were mostly in the south. So Sansa is susceptible to the peer pressure of her fellow pricesses. Arya makes friends of the servant class as there are no young girls of nobility her age... and she has a bit of the wild wolf in her. Sansa is such the perfect little princess, Arya knows she simply can't compete in that category... so she seeks out a different category where she could excel and be noticed more in line with her wild wolf side.
ahhh a Gray vid highlight of my weeeeeeeek 🥰🥰
(ahem, not to mention that I know Sanaa’s about to get dragged and I’m very much here for it 🤭)
I can't seem to remember, does Sansa know about the fake Aria in Winterfell? Because if so, can't imagine it would bring good memories to her. As she was once married to Joffrey, who had their father killed, fake Aria is going to be married to Ramsey, who was involved in the Boltons taking over Winterfell, her true home, and who played a part in the death of Robb as well. (Though granted, as far as the rest of Westeros knows, it's just a widely thought to be true rumor (Can't wait for that conspiracy to play out in the Winds of Winter)). Even if they find out that it isn't Aria, Jeane Poole is Sansa's best friend she thought was dead
Sansa knows nothing. It's been a few years since I read, but LF trained up Jeyne to give to the Boltons if I recall. If Sansa suspected, I think (1) she wouldn't be too upset about the Bolton bastard she doesn't know being married to Jeyne, and maybe even (2) MIGHT think Jeyne was trying to make a move on WF. But Sansa doesn't consider WF 'her home' very much (she really didn't think like that on the show, until "suddenly").
But Sansa/Alayne wouldn't think, "LF is evil and trained up Jeyne to position himself to win Winterfell" because LF is like, her only friend. She has to leech onto LF.
I liked Aura best. In fact better than all the other Starks. However, I guess I need to read the books.
I’m definitely tryna get on obsidian nights sometime. Always great to see a gray are video drop!
JUICE TIME!!!
Ned couldn't send Ser Illyn because he's a Lannister vassal.
People justify Sansa's actions by her age and lack of experience but hold 13 year old Daenerys responsible for her every action
there is a big difference between giving out info when you didn't understand the situation fully and ordering the death of people and burning people to death.
Age isn't even a valid excuse because Arya had an identical upbringing, is younger and does better. Myrcella is close to the same age and does better. Lyanna Mormont is younger and even more sheltered and does better. It's fruitless to argue with Sansa apologists🤷♀️.
@@ashleyofnaath This isn't the show, This is a book reading. Lyanna Mormont hasn't been introduced and most likely won't be like her show counterpart. Also if you read the book you would know children on bear island aren't sheltered they learn to fight off Greyjoys.
@@ashleyofnaath Myrcella was tricked into a scheme by Arianne Martell and is being tricked again to lie on Darkstar.
@@ashleyofnaath Arya had a similar background as Sansa but had different interests/personalities than Sansa. She was more wild and outgoing and liked to meet different people. Ned also sat down with Arya and in the last chapter when Sansa was in court and was getting exposed to the outside world Ned sent her away. So your pretty much just making stuff up at this point.
My love 💞 u keep me alive 💞
First comment 😁
Yall are so fcking mean beyond logic. Whats the point in being this mean to Sansa. Arya makes mistakes too!!! jfc.
They're not mean! They're pointing out what ppl choose to ignore & even defend. Sansa is garbage lol.
True, they both make mistakes but Arya take responsibility and guilt about it unlike Sansa who blames others for it
Gray have you thought about joining clubhouse? I’ve literally just joined and was thinking how bloody cool it would be if you and other ASOIAF you tubers could do talks on there, I would LOVE that!!
In season 1 of the show Grand Maester Pycelle said Sansa was a traitor and he proved to be right about her in the season the that must not be named.
Can we not site anything about the show after season 5?
I mean if it's meant to show how Sansa was always bad and treacherous, then your saying season 8 is valid. And if your saying that then its depiction of the characters you see on screen is accurate. Which means Dany is a genocidal maniac and Sansa was 100% right to be suspicious.
Come on man, be consistent with your own logic. I mean if your saying what I think your saying. Otherwise you can ignore it.
I've not commented in a while but I aint missed a vid. Great channel 👏 keep rockin
I think he sees himself in her naivety. He was so naive that he challenged Ned's brother to a duel. I kind of like to think that was what made him kind of protective of her.
23:52 who’s who in this picture lol. All I can tell for sure is Ned
Sansa defender here 😅 but just wanted to say, Gray you did this episode justice 👏👏
Really enjoyable episode. Thank you!
11:35 I get that the books are more fleshed out, but on a basic level, how is Littlefinger turning Sansa over to Roose/Ramsey in the show any different from Littlefinger turning her over to Harry the Heir in the books? In both cases he's giving his "prized possession" to another man in exchange for influence with one of the other 7 kingdoms. Does he know Harry any more than Ramsey?
Well, Harry is more easily manipulated than the Boltons and he and his house can be easily overpowered
I think that's a multi-layered question, because it's a multi-layered situation. To be brief, if Sweet Robin dies from being poisoned (which it's implied that he is), the Vale passes to Harry. So if he then wed Sansa, they'd be living at the Eyrie. I'd presume Littlefinger would also continue living there, so he wouldn't be physically separated from Sansa as he was in the show, and wouldn't truly have given her away since he'd still be around her. Furthermore, if the Lady Ashford theory holds true, I suspect Harry the heir (Harry Hardyng) will suffer a tragic "accident" which will kill him and simultaneously pass control of the Vale to Sansa. With Littlefinger right by her side since he'd still be at the Eyrie and never truly gave her away.
I think it's vastly different. For one, if Alayne married Harry the Heir she'd still be in the Eyrie and under his thumb and still be in close proximity to her. Two, it's a means to an end whether he marries her to Harry or Sweetrobin or both at some point or not. He's planning both their deaths, so he's not planning on the marriages lasting very long if this is indeed his intention. It may not actually be and he's lying to Sansa. Three, Harry the Heir and Sweetrobin are nothing like Ramsay Bolton. At most Harry the Heir is similar to Robert Baratheon and we see he's easy to manipulate already. In the show, Littlefinger arranges a marriage to Ramsay, despite knowing the horrors he's committed and just left. He left Sansa there to fend for herself in the hands of the enemy and then traveled hundreds of miles away to let her sort out, not caring if she was beaten, tortured, or raped. So yes, I think it's different.
The made Littlefinger in the show look like he knew everything about anyone or anything, okay in the books also. The point is, it was just so completly stupid to give Ramsey Sansa when everybody knew of the reputation that Ramsay was known for. Littlefinger simple not knowing how that would turn out for Sansa was just such a stupid move in the show. The books however, we see littlefinger given Ramsy Jeyne instead. and he was also the one who removed her from Sansa (I believe Cersie was involved somewhere) to a brothel were she was forces to learn/become a whore/prostitue, whatever you want to call it. Harry however was indeed known to love women as well but never one to be cruel to them like Ramsey does. Furthermore I believe Littlefinger never truly meant Sansa to give him any heirs or anything I still believe Littlefinger just wants Sansa to marry him in order for a more powerfull secure future, Harry one way or another will end up dead soon. Even George rr martin said that ´´his´´ Littlefinger would have never let Sansa go back to winterfell alone with the Boltons. Honestly it was kind of an insult to what they did to Sansas character in the show. They never really explored her Alayne or politics story line. It would have been amazing, just imagine if the show portrayed that part of the books.
@@lemya8120 "the point is, everybody knew of the reputation that Ramsay was known for" NO THEY DID NOT. We. As readers/watchers knew but we have a complete view of the whole story. Characters are limited by their point of view. Some in the north spread rumors about Ramsay, but none of his atrocities were widely known. All that was known of Ramsay was that he was Roose's bastard son who had recently been legitimized. Just like in the books re: Harry, all they know is he's the heir. Is Harry smart, brave, funny? Will he treat Sansa kindly? Is he a woman beater?? Littlefinger has no way to know any of these answers in the books.
Also Sansa is a literary contrast to Danaeres. She is a fictional character not a flesh and blood person. Look how George is writing her.
Uhm... and Daenerys is NO fictional character 🤔?!
Ready for the juice !!
3rd lol
Luv ya
She is a CHILD! 11 years old who has been told fantasy stories about happy endings over and over again by Septa Mordane and her mother about how she is acting just like the great Lady that she is supposed to become. Loren was also filthy and covered in lice. She has never been exposed to anything else. At 11 I was in Girl Scouts getting a sewing badge. My parents were good people, went to church and I was learning about Jesus and memorizing The Nicene Creed. High School was A harsh shock. I had never heard of anyone who went hungry or was abused. Can you imagine the petty conversations my little 11 year old friends and I had?
Joffrey was a CHILD too. Age is not an excuse lol.
Yes, it actually is an excuse. Children can’t be held to the same standards as adults because their brains aren’t fully developed. Furthermore the things Joffrey did and Sansa’s understandable character flaws stemming from her sheltered upbringing are not even remotely the same thing.
Yes, it actually is an excuse. Children can’t be held to the same standards as adults because their brains aren’t fully developed. Furthermore the things Joffrey did and Sansa’s understandable character flaws stemming from her sheltered upbringing are not even remotely the same thing.
If you don’t think she is a factor you are truly ignorant.
Yes, it actually is an excuse. Children can’t be held to the same standards as adults because their brains aren’t fully developed. Furthermore the things Joffrey did and Sansa’s understandable character flaws stemming from her sheltered upbringing are not even remotely the same thing.
If you don’t think she is a factor you are truly ignorant.
Yes, it actually is an excuse. Children can’t be held to the same standards as adults because their brains aren’t fully developed. Furthermore the things Joffrey did and Sansa’s understandable character flaws stemming from her sheltered upbringing are not even remotely the same thing.
If you don’t think she is a factor you are truly ignorant.
Sansa grew on me.. 😏 She’s very clever as the story grows..
By a Clash of Kings I started to like her but maybe I’m just weird
ladys death is not sansa's fault everything she did was because of what cat and ned told her she should do, she was going to wed joff regardless of what she want because ned and cat accepted to wed her to joff without asking her , she can't say joff is a liar because she's the one who will be alone with joff without her family's protection when she wed him, and the septa tells her that she should be loyal to her husband. also cat and ned should've tried to make peace between arya and sansa from the first chapter. sansa sayed they should've killed arya and ned didn't even care, everything sansa did was the things her family told her she should do, if you want to blame someone for anything sansa did in game than blame ned he's a shit father to all of his children except rob and bran.
Gosh, do you honestly believe that? Thats just really messed up, not to be mean or anything but wow... I do not understand you. Do you blame your parents for everything you did as a child? do your siblings act the same way? And just to be perfectly clear, yes Sansa did want to marry Joffrey, whe have a whole book full of chapters to prove that for you. And by the way Ned had a lot of moments where he wanted to break the betrothal, and when he finnaly did.... Well, we all know what happed next.
@@lemya8120 in the first book sansa was 11 years old, and no one told her the lannisters are bad or they are in danger, so she trusted the people her father told her she should trust, and in this chapter sansa said they should've killed arya and ned didn't even explain to her why its bad thing to kill her sister, ever since the first chapter sansa was mean to arya and no one ever told her why she shouldn't treat arya like this, in one of the chapters on their way to king's landing sansa remember going to cat and asking if arya is a bastard and cat thought it was funny that sansa would think that and she didn't try to get them to like each others. also no sansa wanted to be the queen and was told joff is like a magical hero from the songs, the moment she realized joff is not the hero from one of her songs she didn't want to wed him anymore, also in the story it doesn't matter if she want to wed him or not she was going to wed him and she knows that so she made the beast of it.
@@freyz8715 honey, if your "crush" openly threatens your sister, okay, and I'm not even talking about the butchers boy, no, your own sister. Than hopefully some alarm bell will go off in your head. Yes she is 11, But come on. And then later on she witnesses him lying. I mean she was there herself. And yes she had to be " silent" because he was her betrothed. I get that but you would have at least expect her to realise that his character is not what she thought it was. In the end she is a child and some people are slow learners but don't blame everything on the parents and say that they're the bad ones. It's not that black and white
@@freyz8715 and honestly when did she realise Joff was bad? When? Yes when her father's head was cut off. I'm sorry I just find myself disagreeing with you a lot. I'm not even a Sansa hater but honestly don't justify her actions like that. The beauty of her story is that we're witnessing character growth there is no need to say something is not wrong when it clearly isn't right.
@@lemya8120 yes but sansa spend all of her time with a septa that keep telling her it's not her place to question what her father's actions and the septa is super in love with the queen and joff sansa is never away from her and ned never tells sansa to be careful nor does he try to explain their situation to her the first time he try to talk to her about joff is in this chapter after when she already think hes not thinking right, she is assuming joff is a good guy because ned accepted to wed her to him. like from her perspective why would ned want her to wed a bad guy.