Light Sansa Stark Vs Dark Sansa Stark | Sansa II | A Game of Thrones| Obsidian Nights Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- On Todays Episode of Obsidian Nights Podcast I am joined by Justin Thomas from Topshelf Fandom to discuss Sansa 2 of A Game of Thrones the first book in the A Song of Ice and Fire Series!
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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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What makes Sansa a refreshing type of character IMO is the fact that feminine characters like Sansa don't really get a voice in the genre. If AGOT was a different story, Ned would have survived and Sansa would have likely died, being used as motivation for him. Or she would have been reduced to a love interest (my dislike for all the shipping of her) Furthermore, because I know this might come up - yes Dany is feminine too, but the big difference between her and Sansa is that Dany IMO is a lot more typical of the genre and she has dragons. I don't know if I'm clarifying this right or not.
Can't Sansa stans defend her WITHOUT making comparisons to Dany or Arya or any other female character?
Dany is about as feminine coded as Sansa and is not at all a typical protagonist in fantasy, as fantasy is a male dominated genre. The difference between the two characters is that Dany is occupying a male space while still being feminine, while Sansa is working within the system and not trying for systematic change.
That's perhaps why it feels like Dany is more typical of the genre - because she is thrust into a more cliche fantasy role. But because she is female and feminine, she is a subversive character.
You're mistaken about Dany trying to achieve symestic change. She isn't interested in abolishing feudalism, challenging patriarchal norms (she sees herself different from other women because she is a Targaryen, she is blood of the dragon) - I'll never forget in one instance in Dance where she excuses rape because the women in question was "his property". It's sad because we know Dany's history. Her whole slavery campaign is essentially one that changes when it suits her - she justifies the selling of the Lhazeeren, we don't really get any inner thoughts of her in AGOT and Clash condemning it, she murders a slave for basically doing the same thing that Dany later punishes others for (and Mirri was actually innocent of Rhaego's death- Dany admits this to herself) She "frees the unSullied" but that's essentially because she can't afford them in the first place. She is OK with people selling themselves back (you cannot call yourself an abolitionist and fucking do this) as long as she gets to profit from it. So no, Dany isn't interested in trying achieve "symestic change". What she wants is the Iron Throne, and that's fine.
As for Sansa, she has been in a position where she has had a lot less power than Dany. She is a fucking hostage. I really don't understand what kind of changes to the system you except her to achieve. "She works within the system" Well this is the same system that literally allows her to be sold off like property at age 12, it doesn't protect her from rape or molestation, or abuse. Like she really isn't benefiting from anything. Anyway that's my point so let's just leave it at that.
@@cheriealicent9981 wow. Way to take that passage out of context. She states she can't punish a slave masters with the past use of a slave because at the time slavery was, unfortunately, legal. To punish this man, would mean to punish all slave masters for past aggressions. The city would return to chaos. The unsullied are paid though.
The unsullied that was murdered at a brothel paid for his time with the prostitute from his wages as a solider.
So you don't like that Dany matures as character and no longer accepts that slavery is normal?! You speak of sansa being treated as property, when Dany was sold a a sex slave to Khal Drogo at the age of 13!
As for sansa, I have no hate for the character. I wish her the best.
How can you say that wanting to end slavery is not a systematic change. Are you sure you read the books?
Yes youre making a lot of sense this is a really good point. Characters like Sansa are always devalued in the genre.
@@cheriealicent9981 Brilliant analysis of Sansa you should make your own vid on this. The asoiaf youtube community needs more of that.
"Sansa apologist" I laughed so hard
Haha😂
"Sansa extremist" lol
Y’all’s back-and-forth was priceless!😂🤘🏻
Sansa is awesome can't hate on her for being innocent and not understanding the way things are when she was young. After that she turned into one of the strongest characters in the song of ice and fire imo. She is learning from littlefinger and she will probably become his downfall.
I'm not saying that The Hound isn't attracted to Sansa, but I think what primarily drives his connection to her, and later Arya, is a compulsion to do for them what he couldn't do for his own sister--protection. Incidentally, I think his inability to save his sister and the associated guilt about it drives The Hound's drinking as well.
It's perfectly possible possible for two siblings to be totally different even though they were raised by the same people. My sister and I are much like Sansa and Arya:
My sister is like Sansa, very girly. Her bedroom is pink and she has a ton of make-up. She likes to be fashionable and thinks social status is important. She chose to go an elite boarding school full of rich kids where she learned etiquette and how to be a nice sociable person. She looks up to people who are important or famous and she actively tries to get in contact with them. She even served the Belgian royal family... twice! Like Sansa she is great in repeating courtesies and through that gets a lot of stuff done and gets invited at high profile events.
I on the other hand was a very boy-ish child. I liked to play with toys that were supposed to be for boys and liked to build camps in the forest. As a teenager I dressed as odd as possible and didn't care what others thought of it. I also looked down, even hated, girls like Sansa or my sister. I went to art school where I was encouraged to have a more wider worldview and get to know people from all walks of life. I have a lot of practical skills, but I lack the social skills of my sister. I can't charm people like she can and my fashion choices (or lack thereof) make me look less attractive than her.
Like Sansa and Arya, we fight a lot because our personalities and worldviews don't match, but as an adult I now understand that we both have our value. We both can do things that the other can't. Someone told me recently that if my sister and I could only put our differences aside, we would make a great team. It's true, and I hope that Sansa and Arya their arc brings them to that same conclusion.
I love Sansa. Sansa is the typical child that is taught to be a princess and be girly. She's a typical teenage wedding and happy ever after dreams, encouraged dreams by her mother. I DO NOT think Arya is what girls aspire to be. Not a killer. But girls want the fairy tale that at one point, like every other poor teen girl, that every dream is destroyed. We grow and eventually find the woman we need to be. Don't knock her out. She is trapped and will overcome. This is considering i was a huge Arya type tomboy.
I can’t with her. Sorry! Should have been taken out right after Ned.
One of the things about this chapter which stands out is that Joffrey is gallant and charming and oh so handsome during this whole evening with Sansa. He even serves wine to Sansa and Septa Mordane. Imagine a crown prince *serving* anyone, especially when that prince is Joffrey. His demeanor only changes once Robert bellows so loudly at Cersei about fighting in the melee that the entire feast comes to an end.
A couple of things to take from this. 1) Joffrey watches his parents’ relationship and emulates it. He is always trying to impress his “father,” Robert. This is likely why he drops the gentlemanly facade with Sansa. He is treating her as he sees his father treat Cersei. And 2) Sansa is in heaven this entire evening. She is drunk on Joffrey’s attentions much less the wine. Even when he abruptly changes, she will carry the evening with her and like most emotionally abused people, she will think if she just behaves a certain way she can get him to be nice to her again. It’s a classic trauma response to someone you love. Most likely, this wonderful evening carries the most weight with her decision to betray her father’s plans to Cersei. She thinks she’s in love, and she’s horribly naive to the horrors that will result from her decision to tell Cersei.
Finally, Sansa is also a known tattletale (“Don’t tell Sansa!”), so it was probably not pragmatic for Ned to warn her of his plans. He doesn’t seem to know her as well as he does Arya though, and that is the sad reality of it all.
Your comment sounds as if you have true insight in the psychology of the kind of actions Sansa displays. Unlike most. They just have an opinion.
He put on a great defense for Sansa.
Even tho I dislike Sansa and probably always will, I still love that you allow completely different opinions on your podcasts. It's so rare, which is a shame because podcasts like these are much more interesting than the echo chamber types
Thank you! It’s definitely on purpose! I don’t want the “yes man” effect on ONP! I want to debate! LOL
@@GrayArea yes! looking forward to the upcoming episodes 🥰
Totally agree! This is one of three asoiaf podcasts I listen to because it's not afraid to be challenged or have a range of opinions.
Seven blessings for this juice we are receiving this day!
P.s. And as a result, she is a bit dark BUT that darkness comes from everything she's experienced, poor girl.
Both sides made really good points. Especially about how there's no one way to be female and strength is more than just having muscles and fighting.
We can do it , but your gonna have to fight me.. Legendary Quote
I can relate to Sansa, as she is the older child in the family. As an older child, things are expected of you and all eyes are on you to do the right thing. Sometimes, the right thing is not so obvious, especially to a child. There is a sense of duty that parents install in their elder children, and that duty is magnified in Sansa simply because she is to wed the prince. My younger brother would always get away with shit I could never dream of doing. All the obligations were mandatory in my case, but voluntary in his case. Which is the same thing with Arya. She can have a fucking sword, and get away with it. That would not work for Sansa. So, those split loyalties - to the family, to the system, and to herself are tearing her apart, which is something I find very relatable and universal to any time, not just medieval times.
Great guest. Awesome commentary!
I could listen to Gray read whole chapters - consider it Gray! Your voice is so nice to listen to!
I think a lot of people tend to overlook what Ned did and didn't teach Sansa when it comes to the royal family and tend to think she's an awful character on the basis of that. They lose track of the meta aspect of the series where we get to see from everyone's POV and forget Sansa's POV. Not only is she just a child, but when Ned kills Lady, he essentially teaches Sansa that the royal family is so infallible that her own honorable and righteous father will literally murder a piece of Sansa's soul without question because the king and queen tell him to.
He never apologizes or explains why killing Lady was wrong, he never actually tells Sansa that Cersei and Joffrey were wrong for demanding Lady's death because he feels ashamed for doing it himself and just wants to forget it. But if your a child and your own father who you love and respect does the cruelest thing that anyone has ever done to you in service of the royal family, then why wouldn't you defer to their judgment as well?
People vastly underestimate how much Sansa picked up on Ned's cues when it came to dealing with the Lannisters, and he vastly underestimated Sansa's intelligence and ability to understand when he didn't explain to her what was actually going on. Sansa does the dumb thing in large part because Ned doesn't tell her the truth and because he simply doesn't want to admit to her that he did the wrong thing. Cat and Ned especially went very far out of their way to ensure that Sansa remained as naive as possible and then the readers hate her for acting naively.
Also I think it's interesting that people perceive her as a Regina George type character, because I actually feel like she's one of the most relatable characters in the series specifically because she is in many ways a shy fangirl. Like, at least in comparison to a lot of her family members, she's kind of an ordinary person who loves fantasy stories and loves imagining herself as a character in a fantastical and amazing world, and I feel like a lot of people lose that aspect of her character because in their minds it doesn't mesh with the stereotype of the pretty girly girl. I actually think a huge portion of her character winds up getting lost on people because they don't look past the surface stereotype of her character and actually see her as a person with complexity and dimension.
This is really brilliant!! You should make a vid essay on this ❤
@@sabrinakrisb4672 I totes will someday! Sansa actually has one of the most interesting POV's in my opinion, but people tend to dislike her or misinterpret her based on their omniscient reading of the text instead of based on what she actually thinks and knows at the time that she makes decisions. I mean, if she thinks Ned trusts the king and queen enough to kill Lady on their word, there's no reason for her to think that telling them that her father wants to leave the city is dangerous.
People also tend to really dislike her because she idealizes everything and lives in kind of a fantasy world, but I think that beneath the surface her fantasies are an obvious attempt to dissociate herself from traumatic events. She reimagines them as something less frightening than they are, as a story that happened to a character in a song instead of something terrifying that happened to her as a helpless child, in order to deal with the fact that she needs to be in a constant state of fear and vigilance and that she needs to act like the princess in a fairytale to appease people who are constantly threatening and traumatizing her.
It's interesting, I've always found that when it comes to political maneuvering and social behavior, Sansa is actually more like Ned than most of the other Starks, and the idealism that people love Ned for they tend to hate Sansa for. It's an interesting insight into how a lot of people are actually more brutal and unfair to a young girl who has almost no power and makes mistakes versus an adult man who is one of the most powerful people in the world who makes the exact same mistakes, especially since both of their missteps are often driven by a desire to see the world or the people around them as better than they are and driven by a desire to ignore things that scare them or make them uncomfortable until it's really too late for them to do anything about it.
@@HillsAliveYT Totally agree. I saw a clip of a George interview once where seemed shocked that so many people seem to dislike her so strongly. She's not a perfect person and has many faults, but who doesn't in this super complex multi-character story? You should totally do a vid essay on this someday.
@@HillsAliveYT People really overlook how she was raised by Ned and Catelyn *both*. I find people often ignore how Ned treated Sansa a certain way and Arya another way, and they just fixate on how Catelyn is similar to Sansa in important (sometimes even negative) ways. I dont think they were bad parents who set Sansa up to fail and be a brat, they raised her like they did because they thought it was certain that she'd be a lady married to Joffrey. They didn't know Joffrey and Cersei were such evil people deep down, they thought she would grow up to be under their care so they raised her to live for that. She believed their future dream for her.
@@sabrinakrisb4672 Yes exactly, and although Sansa and Arya look more like Cat and Ned respectively, that seems to be a bit of an intentional mislead on the part of GRRM as Sansa's disposition seems to be much more of the quiet wolf while Arya is more like Cat in that she is much more assertive and proactive. And they weren't bad parents, they raised Sansa and Arya differently because they picked up on these differences and recognized that Sansa was more sensitive and less tough than Arya, but that desire to shield her from what they thought she couldn't handle wound up completely backfiring.
Grey I love you and I understand a lot of points about Sansa but I wouldn't call any eleven year old a terrible person fictional or not no matter what they did. You're hardly a person at eleven. You quite literally know nothing at that age.
Yes people love ignoring the fact that she was literally a child. They treat the character like she should understand everything and act like an adult at ELEVEN.
Sansa drives me completely crazy in AGOT. I do feel some sympathy towards her though because I used to be a preteen girl, swooning over boys, completely oblivious to the ways of the world. To be fair, I can't stand Jon in AGOT either because he's such a whiny, emo brat, which I also used to be at one time. I think I just hate teenagers. Maybe there's a tinge of embarrassment and self loathing for me as well. Lol. They both grow on me as they mature though. I really enjoy the Alayne chapters
Ned prevented Sansa from gaining political knowledge and meeting different types of people. Look at his chapters during the tourney and when he sent to people after the mountain.
Yes and people who hate Sansa love ignoring this
Of course Ned did not raise his daughters to reign or fight. Or work. The idea is just plain ridiculous and can only come from a childish mind. Sansa and Arya are princesses who were supposed to live and act accordingly.
@@saymyname2417 You know you're quite ludicrous and come off as rude. Reread my post again, I never claimed he should have taught her to fight, work, or reign. Slowly, teaching her more about the real world could have helped. He did with Arya during one of her and Sansa fighting.
Your also factual wrong, Arya and Sansa are Ladies in waiting and are given political knowledge. Several Northern ladies are active after their father/husbands/sons have died.
Alys Karstark
Jonella Cerywyn
Donella Hornwood
Barbrey Dustin
@@whitediamond133 - Actually, I just wrote that the bare idea of Sansa being raised to reign is silly, not that you are. Today's people, especially millennials judge medieval (fantasy) characters according to their own standards and understanding and THAT is ridiculous.
Ned expected both of his daughters to marry noble and rich men and have children. Thus, he raised them accordingly despite their differences. Thus, unlike the boys they were not taught politics and warfare. That's what I referred to.
Sure, women can hold power and often better than men because they are more cautious and have no need for heroism. Yet, sadly, they are the exception. Both on Planetos and in this world.
@@whitediamond133 - Oh, and a woman taking care of things because her husband died has always been quite common but it is not the same thing as someone being brought up to reign.
I mean there are so many widows of Sicilian ... business men that the term "la bella mafia" was created and the women are no less effective than the males. Still, this was not the original intention.
From what I remember the children were taught the who-is-who of Westeros and they learned about their fellow noble folks. But that is not what I call a proper education to be fit to rule. That includes much, much more. I hope that clears things up.
Hound probably likes Sansa because she's kind to him. And she's kind in general. Saved that knight's life by telling jofrey to make him a fool. Hound also sees innocence in Sansa maybe even a reflection of his own that he misses. Because he wanted to believe in things when he was younger but saw harsh truths. Sometimes he still wants to believe, perhaps. But when he's mocking her he's mocking his own desire to believe in things. Because that's what he's seeing in her. That's why he comes to see her before leaving. A kindred spirit
Love thus guest
That’s my dawg
The world of ASOIAF is a medieval world. Not that of a 21st century. I will never understand why people are unable to realise that.
A character like Sansa was brought up in a way *ABSOLUTELY APPROPRIATE* for a girl of the high nobility. It is childish to mock her because she wasn't raised to reign, handle weapons, given a proper education or deal with drunken employees. Cause that was hardly ever what women like that experienced. In reality.
A character like Sansa is *SUPPOSED* to marry a very high born person, have children, behave ladylike and decently, be discreet and represent the house she married into gracefully. Nothing more. Period.
The way Sansa thinks, feels and behaves is perceived as uncool by modern people out of sheer ignorance but it is absolutely realistic. Whereas the bad-ass, warrior, "girl power", loudmouth don't give a f* females are exceptions at best and downright badly written fanservice bs by D&D at worst.
Even if this is fantasy it works according to real world parameters. *OF COURSE* Sansa is into princes, knights, chivalry, beauty, girl's stuff and the likes. And into old fashioned ideals that modern people find laughable. I never liked her but of course I understand that she's a product of her time and upbringing and that she is confronted with people and situations that she is unable to deal with. As any 12 or so year old child would be. Most of those who hate this character would not survive for a week if being thrown into Sansa's situation.
Plus, most people can't grasp that in such a society you have *NOTHING* to say as a young girl even if you're a princess. Get real - loudmouths get shut down. Simple as that.
Sansa survives because she has discipline and stamina and doesn't behave like a toddler who throws a tantrum because mommy didn't allow her to eat dog food. She survives (in the tv series) despite her far from reality upbringing exactly because she is how she is. This is the kind of strength that enables people to survive although all odds are against you. And to grow and probably hold true power. It's real and far more effective than swinging an axe.
Gray Lady returns
I don't think there's any one "strongest type of woman" (or any gender)
We're all going to relate to different characters, and that's fine. In my opinion, it's stupid to argue about it, and will probably only cause harm
Of course it's fine to discuss the differences, but to compare them to each other in some kind of bracket format, is just stupid, again, imo
100% agree
@@GrayArea
I love this series, by the way, and your channel in general, you're doing a fantastic job!
I would be honored to talk to Nim(sorry if I misspelled that) about setting up a possible guess slot. What's her Twitter handle, if you don't mind me asking? (*You already answered this in another response so thank you : ) hope to see you soon)
Either way, again, love the channel, keep up the great work : )
Side not: I have Mic and audio processor set up so that won't be a problem
Love this podcast!! Time for some Juice!!
GRRM PLANNED IT ALL
Thank you for content that stimulates!
We don’t have to relate to ANY character and that’s what people forget they think any character in any kind of book ,movie, or show has to “relate” to people and it doesn’t. “Fandoms” on the internet have ruined modern forms of entertainment
Love the discussion, keep bringing the juice! I was never a Sansa fan, but what changed my thoughts on her was the fact that GRRM changed the direction he took the character. Remember originally Sansa was supposed to side with the Lannisters, but GRRM decided to change that and you can see it in the later books. So I’m re-examining her character from a new set of lenses and I would like to see how her story ends. Also on a side note y’all forgot Garlan Tyrell as one of the best fighters in Westeros, Loras even stated Garlan is better with the sword.
I mean by the wording of the original outline Sansa was already married and had a son with J by the time "the crunch comes". Basically she chose her husband and kid (key word - kid) over her parents and siblings because your kid comes first. Like for example, let's just say the Tully's for whatever reason sided with the Lannisters. Should Cat then side with her father and brother, over her children? No, that would be ridic. But I do agree that I'm very glad George scrapped that storyline for Sansa. (The original outline in general is pretty shitty tbh.)
@@cheriealicent9981 I should have clarified at the beginnings my post why I didn’t like Sansa. I didn’t like her at first because she was very naive and how she ran to Cersei about her Dad leaving King’s Landing. That was the beginning of GRRM sewing the seeds of Sansa siding with the Lannisters. I know she did it because of her child, but I think GRRM was making her unlikable in GoT in preparation for that inevitable turn. But of course he decided against it.
Gray Area!!!
I used to really dislike Sansa (Especially early books Sansa) but thanks to Grays persuasive arguments I have better understanding of her character. While I still can't say I like her but I do better understand why some do.
I do still look forward to Sansa and Arya's book reunion. It'll be great to see George's take on them finally getting past their differences.
Yoooooo Gray!!! I love the still u put up with Loras giving Sansa a rose, while Ned is DAWGIN Loras' ass!!! Like HARDCORE!! You know Ned was prolly havin deja vu moment from some Harrenhall Tourney PTSD!!! Last time he saw a wolfmaid get flowers from another man while betrothed to the future king!!!!!! Well... we know how SHITTY that ended! 💀💀🤣
I don't like the Hound. He murdered a smallfolk boy and didn't feel any remorse for it. It was awful the way he taunted Arya for it.
But I do like this moment between him and Sansa. As much as you don't like her Gray (And I respect you allow dissenting hosts on her chapters) you can't really look past the fact that unlike his own father (Sandor's) Sansa is basically the first person in Sandor's life to actually validate his pain and anger. To say what his brother did was wrong, in her language ("he was no true knight")
He’s a tortured soul, the world has been so cruel to him so he hates the world and everyone in it.
He just sees the world the way it is. He had to kill the butcherboy and doesn't feel ashamed of it. He turned into a hard man but not an evil man imo and most would have turned out alot worse being a clegane and traumatized in his youth. Also I don't feel it was taunting to arya he made her strong and understand things as they are by being himself.
I never liked the Hound. Yes, he is a tortured, traumatised soul. And he can be kind to very young, vulnerable princesses.
The same goes for serial killers. Minus the princess thing.
@@gabberhenk497 murdering poor innocent children is evil. if doing evil things doesn't make you evil, no one is evil.
i think i relate so much to Arya and Daenerys
Sansa is an oath breaker she betrayed the north! How does she end up with it?
She also fought to take the north back 🤷🏽♀️ at least in the show and tbh the north betrayed her when they made her marry ramsay. She more than paid for her betrayal.
@@kaleanaking5292 she didn't fight for shit, she hid in the cripts and let the dragon queen win her war for her
The amount of psychological deep dive assessment and expounding y'all are pouring on the character is absolutely exasperating and I love it -arrrrgh!!!
Oh also I don't think that Sansa is the odd one out in the family, I think that the siblings are all just different and are representations of different ideals of Westeros that Ned and Cat specifically embody. Robb represents duty, Jon is honor, Sansa is chivalry, Arya is justice, Bran is kindness, and Rickon is ferociousness. And for all of them their strongest quality is their greatest blessing and curse, Sansa looks different from the rest of them on the surface but they really are all a cohesive family unit that each illustrate the different dimensions of House Stark and House Tully and the ways in which their familial ideals can both be strengths and weaknesses.
Sansa came in expecting the full Disney Fairytale. Enter George & the Lannisters.
Feminism means having the freedom to be whatever type of woman you want to be, if that means Sansa wants to be a fancy lady, than so be it. That doesn't make her more or less of a feminist than Arya or Brienne are. But Both latter ladies made a choice to not be what is expected of them by society, whereas Sansa was raised to be what she is, so you could argue she's less feminist. But not necessarily lol
You're completely right, feminism is in part about allowing women to be who they want to be and some people will view Sansa as a role model for being true to who she is. However, Sansa isn't a feminist in the books. She thinks what everyone in her society is expected to think - that a woman's role is to look pretty and to be a wife and mother. She's just not a forward thinker in that way as she fully accepts the status quo, unlike characters like Arya ("The woman is important too!") and Dany who believe in equality and women having a choice in their futures. Being true to yourself isn't the end all or be all of feminism, it also means believing women and men from all walks of life deserving of the same rights and respect. Now if people find empowerment with Sansa, that's fantastic, but Sansa is definitely not in anyway a feminist in the books, not even to the smallest degree. I'm not saying that can't change though, it could.
@@rianbeegles3349 agreed :)
I would love to see Santa takes revenges on everyone with her witt, and possibly becomes the queen regent of the ram.
Hey Grey area, I love your voice. 💕✌🏽
Gray, as for those being the four best swordsmen in the realm, did you forget that Briene whupped 3 of them? Or how the Red Viper beat one with a stick? Also, in a melee with them, i cant see Barristen coming in last.
I also like Alyane Sansa. I think she will end up being a smarter version of cersei & littlefinger
Lady Gray, I promise you will learn to respect and love my Queen 🐺👑 Sansa gradually 🤣🤣
I love Dark Sansa!
Sansa's character portrayal was weak and was made even more so with D & D's added filth to the story
my first time i was referred by Fannon and mostly definitely check your content seems interesting
I have love ❤️ hate relationship with sansa. There are moment magnitude I can’t stand her. There are more moments that I like/proud of her. She can be frustrating but she does learn. I couldn’t imagine this story without her
Had a sister same daddy same mama and grew up in the same situation she was like Sansa except she was evil Like Circe
GA!!!
Yess! Another obsidian nights
episode :)) Hey Gray btw, do you see George's newest not a blog post as good news or bad news? Personally I think (naive as I may be) that we actually are getting close to a release date..
Love it thanks so much❤️
I love sansa' character development she goes from this naive girl to this shrewd woman
4:08 Are we reading the same story?!? Sansa’s emotions are what got Lady killed. I can’t even...but Sansa couldn’t even do math & her “duty” aka priorities were all superficial desire oriented. TSF really enjoy you being on, but couldn’t disagree with you more! 👍
"Sansa is to blame for Cersei and Joff and Rob and the entire grand game politics involved in the scenario of Lady being killed, if Sansa didn't exist none of this wouldve happened!!!" Do you fucking hear how irrational you sound. That's what you sound like.
15:10 That's some real shit
She said "I'm throwing hand's"!!!! I can't trust anyone who doesn't like dogs!
Ahhh thank god I need this
When lyza was at the castle sir Hugh waz not a Knight of the veil he waz a Squire it waz after John Aaron was killed Robert made him a Knight and lyza was already gone... Sorry for any misspells I'm using voice text
He neee sum juice! 🧃
This is random, but in the image where LittleFinger is leaning over to Sansa at the tourney, the post to the left looks like a wolf.
Roughly 28:00
It takes more strength, for a strong woman, to be submissive.
I get that take I just don’t think we should compare strengths in women, it’s so diverse.. I think strength is very individual, yes Sansa is strong but just because it’s what is typical for that period doesn’t mean she has to be every womans champion.
@@GrayArea She has one kind of strength and Arya has another and Brienne still another. They are all strengths, though. I guess, my counselor always told me, that when someone’s weaknesses really push your buttons, then you need to look within, to see your own similarities......parts of yourself, that you reject.
@@modmary1 it’s not that I reject it, it’s that I can’t relate to it. I don’t think I have to champion submissiveness. My beef with Sansa has nothing to do with her being submissive and everything to do with her betraying her father.
uhhhhhh....did I watch a different GoT series? The point of Sansa’s story is not ‘women, be submissive’. It’s ‘women, you can gain more power and influence as you grow up, so you don’t have to be a submissive political pawn’.
I believe a "strong woman" has no need to be submissive, and her "partner" should see that strength and be grateful. If a man can't handle a strong woman, then he's the one with the problem, period.
What's the Twitter handle for scheduling an episode?
I looked up Nim's shadow on Twitter but didn't find anything, but maybe I misspelled or misheard the name. Thx : )
NymsShadow
@@GrayArea
🙏 Thank you!
Hope to talk to you soon ツ
I. Love Quinn and Justine when they are on with you. Y’all together just bring it together. I’m ready for this video. I know you dont like Sansa haha
2020 is better than game of thrones season 8
FACTS
😂 Love this
That’s true 😂☝🏽
I think that the Stoneheart-in-Waiting did a bit too good of a job in Sansa's education
Gray your Sansa hate is so hard to listen to sometimes. I get you don't like her but wow you sure let it get in the way of her chapters... if Justin wasn't on would this just be a Sansa roast???
Lol I bring ppl on for episodes specifically so.. it’s not a roast.
defend Sansa? Nah she grown. She should be able to defend herself
I think it isn't so much her age as it is the fact she is a fictional character but all jokes aside I see where u are coming from and could of phrased it differently
Since when is a pubescent child a grown ass woman? You forget they're talking about her in the books and she's 11
Gray is cracking me up and I’m only a few minutes in. I think Sansa was sheltered and has no idea what people outside of her home are really like, I think the Hounds is her only true friend in Kingslanding and Yes Little Finger is a pervert.
Sansa is one of the most complex and extraordinary characters in GOT because she survived violent physical, emotional, and psychological trauma and then used wisdom gained from those lived experiences to ascended to a position of ultimate power.
People love ignoring this huge part of her storyline
Does Daenery targaryen even exist to you????
@@childoficeandfire7986 So because Dany exists, its wrong to pay attention to Sansa? You think there can only be one strong female character at a time?
@@sabrinakrisb4672 People ignore sansa because deep down they know she ain't suffered jack. She was raised by a loving mother and father, raised in a powerful house, she had siblings and education, She was raised with a silver spone up her ass. Being slapped once by joffery is the only violent trauma she ever suffered, she made her own bed when she got her father killed, she didn't give a damn about Arya or Micah the bunchers boy she got killed, she always been selfish and nothing really changed.
@@childoficeandfire7986 What do you get out of being that reductive, cruel, and dismissive to an entire character storyline? Genuine question. Does it make you feel better about yourself to demonize an entire character like that? Do you *need* to have a comic book evil, irredeemable villain at all times? Do you think you *have to* think that way about Sansa, in order to make Dany look better? Because you don't.
I respect and adore Dany. We all do. We don't have to be so one-sided about an entire character's storyline. We don't need to have a comic book "evil bad guy" to blame for every single problem. There's good and bad in everyone and many of Sansa's decisions and suffering that you bring up are much more complex than how you're describing them.
I cant stand her on gut level, but YES , she is necessary as a character for all the reasons stated.
No woman is the embodiment of feminism. Now Sansa may be the embodiment of femininity. That's a different thing altogether. I would say that all the women in the show are the embodiment of feminism because they are incredibly diverse. Feminism means not being restrained by societies expectations of women. It means women thinking for themselves and making their own decisions. Not being a man's property. It means men and women being treated as equal human beings. It's not about being equal to a man. Men do not set the standard for which I should be equal to. I'm not a man. I dont want to be like a man. I am a woman. I dont have to be like a man for my life to have the same value as a man. Men and women have different attributes that compliment each other. Society needs to learn to value a women the same way they value men.
(23:14) All right, we get it. Kind of awkward, dude.
I would say that Arya is more like Catelyn while Sansa is more like Ned, in temperament. Sansa isn't the one who smacked Joffrey because he was hurting the butchers boy. Not saying that he didn't deserve that, he absolutely did. But Sansa has to deal with consequences of that situation because he is humiliated in front of her and takes it out on her. If Arya hadn't escalated the situation, that boy might have just walked away with just a scar. Obviously Sansa is going to be more sheltered than Arya. Sansa is the older daughter, she'll be married off first. She's also more comfortable in an environment that will keep her sheltered and ignorant. Behind walls, under the eyes of her Septa, with other ladies and kept pretty ignorant. Arya is more drawn away from that. It isn't where she's comfortable. She is clearly more of a tomboy, drawn to an environment where they aren't worries about keeping boys sheltered, ignorant, innocent.
Why is there always an excuse for everything Sansa has ever done wrong? Even though a lot of the characters were also children and don’t get as much excuses made as Sansa...
Sansa is good Person she defanded sir dantos instinctively that moment showed her good nature and Intelligence also her telling cersei i think will make her gulity and motivate her to be a better Person and selfless
Sansa is the personification of entitlement. She believes because she’s a princess she’s owed/entitled to a great life. She’s a “Karen.”
"How dare she wish for a good life or power for herself, so selfish to think of herself as anything other than a political pawn baby maker" Thats what you sound like.
Most of the characters born into the Great Houses (and some of the lesser noble Houses as well) of Westeros believe that they are entitled to certain advantages due to their birth and ancestry - that is the social order of Westeros. Within this class system, some of the lords are more compassionate than others; such as Ned Stark (who believes in taking care of his people as best he can) or Daenerys who frees slaves once she is in a position to do so; but they also believe they are owed certain things - rank and privilege - by virtue of their birth into certain families. (with Ned, it's that he is Lord Stark and expects obedience from his servants, vassals, and family and respect from other lords of Great Houses; with Dany, it's that she's of the Blood of the Dragon and is the rightful Queen of Westeros who will reclaim her family's throne).
@@gailf1617
Well the difference between Sansa and Daenerys is that Daenerys is putting in the hours and working toward her goals whereas Sansa just expects it come free.
Sansa's such a cutie!!!
My opinion of Sansa hasn't changed from this podcast. She's still a dud and until George R updates her character, she will remain a dud
Game of Thrones is a great show despite Sophie Turner's crappy acting
I can't put a like to it
I gotta say.. I actually like Sansa..😳 her story is a perfect example of a ‘woman’s place’ in their society. She was forced into marriage after marriage out of duty to try to bring honor back to her family. She was raised as the first daughter of Ned/Catelyn Stark, to marry a lord or a prince or a knight.. she saved Winterfell.. with the help of others that she manipulated for her benefit. I’m not saying I think she’s the persona of a female role model or hero, but she used her skills..😏
I dislike show Sansa very much. Being shady 2 Queen Daenerys 4 no reason! Book Sansa went and told Cersei her Father's plans! Unforgivable!
Being shady to someone who poses a threat isn't anything new.
I love Sansa and I'm part of her defense Squid. I love seeing her going from this innocent girl who knows nothing about the world and facing all these challenges head-on trying to survive and learn to play the game which I do feel will come full circle when she is back in the North because she left the North as an innocent girl and comes back as Intelligent woman who will be ready to take her place alongside Jon as their stories mirror each other as the head of House Stark. Sansa is the Gentle part of winter which will lead to Spring. The Main reason why I don't like Daenerys is because of how Abusive she is granted Daenerys didn't have the best upbringing but still very abusive.
Her growth is admirable, past storm she gets so much better.. I just don’t like the comparisons and sterotypes attached to her character
How is Dany abusive?
@@ellec6342 I think that’s a typo. Has to be
@@GrayArea yeah, must be. Because that doesn't make sense.
Dany abusive????
I'm a Sansa apologist all day long, but, it's really nothing to apologize for.
Plainly put? Sansa played the game after Jon's simple ass forced her hand with his overzealousness. She played. She won. She wouldn't have had to play, or even have the power to play, if it weren't handed to her by Jon. Jon gave her the position she excelled at.
Dany, Cersei, Tyrell's, etc, played and lost.
End of story.
All the cussing makes the podcast cheep. Not very classy.
Lol
✌
Yeah, I think its absolutely ridiculous to except Sansa to change her worldview overnight. Would you be able to drop your beliefs just like that? And to be quite frank, yes there is obviously a need to understand that life isn't "a song", but just because the world is awful, doesn't mean it isn't worth trying to uphold those values of chivalry (courage, justice etc) and being a true knight (ie protecting the weak) And Brienne Tarth is proof that Sansa isn't wrong to believe in the idea of the true knight - that is someone who is courageous, just, and will defend others. GRRM has said Brienne is Sansa with a sword.
I am a Sansa "apologist," too. I believe there are no bad dogs and no bad kids, just bad owners and bad parents. She was exactly what she was raised to be! She went behind Ned's back to try to stay in King's Landing, not fully understanding the ramifications...and Cat released Jaime behind Robb's back *fully knowing* the ramifications, and Robb married Jayne behind everyone's back perhaps not realizing how vengeful Walder Frey would be, but knowing it was effed up. All of them had a choice, just like Jaime says later...what do you do when you are torn between competing duties? They followed their hearts, and they paid for it.
Also, Cat doesn't capture Tyrion, Jaime doesn't kill Jory, Jory is around to escort the girls around the castle, Sansa doesn't rat out. Just saying.
Ew…
Thanks for having me on the show I'm grateful as always and love that we can have a measured intelligent discussion with differing perspectives on Sansa.
MY G👌👌👌
I don't like Sansa, but we all have to remember that--just like most of the main charactersshe's just--a child.
Nature vs Nurture both came from the same place (lmao) and had similar nurture but their natures are very different
I feel like in the first book sansa is really dislikeable but to me she grows as a person and becomes a lot more likeable but ppl cant see past her past but they can easily forgive murderers and rapist such as khal drogo and tyrion but they cant stand a spoiled little girl she has been through so much pain and trauma.
I dont much like pre-AFFC Sansa ,not because i compare her to Daenerys (who i do like), rather I cant help but compare her to her mother. She exudes pompous Catelyn Tully and that is something i personally just cant abide. Which is definitely why book Littlefinger would never give her up. As shes coming into her own i find myself liking her more which probably means Baelishs obsession with her will start to wane as she becomes more Sansa and less Catelyn. ironically unaware that his downfall will come from the piece of himself he sees in her.
"When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly."
Sansa did blame Joff for it at first, but later misdirects the blame at Arya. This is because Ned continued the betrothal after the incident. From Sansa's perspective, he was OK with continuing it. Sansa decides not to blame Joff not because she's stupid or immoral - but because she's a 12 yo girl who is well aware that Joff is going to have complete power over her, as her husband and king. It is a survival mechanism.
That's a very good point.
She also "sold herself" so she could be queen... let's not get her twisted, she already is...
@@thecopperbroom3657 Are you talking about her going to Cersei? Because no. Sansa was already betrothed to Joff. She cannot "sell herself" when that decision was already made for her.
Her going to Cersei has a lot more to do with the fact that she likes KL, it has her interests and stuff (there is a quote for this but I don't have the book on me) Sansa was geniunely excited to go South. However again from Sansa's perspective, her Dad is doing something unfair because he does. not. communicate. with. her. Yes, he tells Sansa they will be safe in Winterfell. But that isn't a sufficient explanation - he doesn't tell her about Cersei (you know basically confirm the things that Sansa is forcing herself to deny) Sansa certainly isn't aware of the fact that Ned basically agreed to this betrothal in order to investigate the Lannisters for murder.
I understand people getting frustrated with that point in the story but I certainly don't buy for one moment that it was malicious or that Sansa truly understood what she was doing. I've seen people say that she did because she calls herself "wicked" - but FFS, Sansa calls herself wicked for eating sweets and staying up late with Jeyne.
@@cheriealicent9981 Sorry, i don't buy it, I do agree that Sansa was raised "dumb" and that is NOT her fault, however, there are things called LOYALTY and what should be a MORAL Compass. How could she continue to "love" Joffrey, after the way he treated not only Arya but Lady as well. She seems INCREDIBLY SHALLOW, and maybe she was raised to be shallow, but if someone was coming for one of my family members, we would have a serious problem. But instead, she blames Arya and Lady. Idk, I call that almost too naive to believe that its all because of how young she is and decisions were made "for" her.
That's bullshit. If Sansa defended Joffrey because Ned didn't break the betrothal, then how do explain her still mooning over him after Ned did cancel it and told her he'd find someone more worthy of her? How do you explain her defying her father's wishes so she could stay in KL and marry Joffrey?
It wasn't until Joff chopped off Ned's head that she started hating him. Her own ambition and willful blindness is what did her in, not Ned's supposed acceptance of Joffrey.
Sansa is like Jamie, hated them in the first book, but as they grow I keep rooting for them
Sansa is the best. But in the beginning you have to remember she is still a little girl who still believes her father noes the best. It is when her father dies she starts to realize that she is on her own and has to trust herself. I think when George wrote her character she is meant to be the gentle side of winter and her sister Arya is meant to be the dangers of winter.
This is a great point!! Love what you said about winter wow
@@sabrinakrisb4672 Thank you.
Yeah, I feel like people forget that not only is she a child, but she's surrounded by manipulative adults, after twelve years surrounded by adults who loved and cared for her and had her best interests at heart.
I'll probably never like early Sansa, book or show, but it's fun to have intelligent and respectful debates about her actions and whether or not we should be rooting for her in the first place.
That's what i love about George's writing is most people could relate or feel more drawn to a character then another.I feel yoy o sansa Gray top shelf gave a proper defence of sansa excellent breakdown as always.Thnx for your time Gray.
Juice Time!!!