Traitor or silly child | Sansa | A Game of Thrones | A Song of Ice and Fire
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I like your point about how Sansa uses fantasy as a coping mechanism. Her behavior reminds me of the stages of grief: denial, depression, bargaining, anger, and finally acceptance. And the point about wanting to believe the lies despite knowing better was good too.
Sansa and Jane holding each other like sisters, is that foreshadowing that Jane will be passed off as Arya?
The thing that really bothers me about Sansa is at no point does she really self reflect on the harm that she has done. If she thinks about it at all, she is always blaming someone else. Even as Alysane she never thinks about Ned or Arya in any meaningful way.
This bothers me too, but I think it's a result of her trauma. She is avoidant and she represses anything that makes her feel bad in any way. I think she knows deep down that her actions played a huge role in Ned's death and Arya's disappearance. And I think in general Sansa doesn't like thinking about Arya very much because she knows deep down that bullying Arya pre-series and then blaming Arya for the Trident incident was wrong and she doesn't want to face that. But I get it, I'm Sansa critical and there are some things she has done that I know I'd forgive her for more easily if she actually reflected on some of the bad things she's done and felt contrite about it. Not saying Sansa is bad or anything, but there are a couple of things she's done in canon that I have a hard time reconciling with, but I do have hope she'll regain autonomy and start doing some self reflection. Honestly the fact that Sansa has these sorts of flaws is what makes her interesting and what keeps people talking, which is why I hate when people try to erase them. :)
She did regret thow she treated Jon while she is in Vale. Later, she even thinks how sweet it would be to see him again. I don't think Sansa understood that the info she gave Cersei before actually sold her father out. She is just a really naive 11 yo girl.
Sansa the Kinsnitcher
I am not sure Sansa is either a traitor or a naive. She acted precisely as he power hungry mother Stoneheart-in-waiting groomed her to act. As the queenship was slipping from her grasp, and it was something she was raised to want, she engaged in the basic form of manipulation that Stoneheart-in-waiting demonstrated in the ultimate form manipulating her truly naive husband into accepting the handship. Cersei is just better at it...
A bit of both I think. Sansa is not stupid and taught to be ambitious but unlike Cersie she has a geniunely kind heart. She is compassionate Ned taught her that. Too bad she was too inexperienced and stupid for the situation.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 I know this comment is old, but I just listened to this today. But I have a question, when and where is Sansa compassionate? When she doesn’t care that Mycah was killed and for Arya’s pain, and never took accountability for lying, resulting in Lady’s death, instead blaming Arya for playing with a child of lower status? Or when she is calling Jeyne useless and wishing she would shut up, thinking she is a child, while she cried for her own father’s death. She has zero empathy or awareness. And if you read ahead to the Alayne chapters, she doesn’t seem to have learned anything still and has no compassion or empathy, especially for those she feels beneath her. The way she treats and thinks of Sweetrobin, her kin, is no better. Still worrying only for marrying Harry Hardyng so she can became Lady of the Vale, knowing Robert Arryn has to die for that, and all she thinks is she hopes Robin has enough sweet sleep (his slow poison) to not make a scene when she dances with Harry. I used to like Sansa but the more I read it the less redeeming qualities I have seen in her.
Like I get she is a child so I understand her character, but I don’t think she is empathetic or compassionate in anyway, though she is certainly naive and she does start to become more observant as she gets older. A skill that she was forced to learn through her trauma, and she is smart to see as much as she does in the later chapters.
I loathe Sansa! Arya wasn't given life lessons either yet she learns far more quickly. Even in a Storm of Swords she is still talking about the songs and is still very callous.
Sansa is still living in the fairy tale in her Alayne I TWOW chapter. I just listened to it a week or so ago and I was like WOW 0_0
That is because Catelyn raised Sansa differently. She is her first born daughter, so she is supposed to go after her moms wishes! That caused Arya to be given less attention than Sansa and now she was on her own talking to everyone, the old the poor, the broken. Sansa was more exposed to be brainwashed. A Lady is not supposed to think on her own. A Lady is beautiful. A Lady waits for her Prince and is passive. Catelyn treats her like a doll! How is Sansa supposed to escape from this mentality quickly if that is all she knows? Arya was always able to have different surroundings, due to her not looking lady-like like Sansa and already not having traditional feminine traits by nature, like Sansa does. You compare apples and oranges. They had whole different circumstances. So yes Arya was given several life lessons already.
i think that both sansa and dany went thru similar catastrophes and that maybe if they could have formed a union that the 2 of them together together could have actually achieved the peace together
That quote about the lemon cakes isn't about Sansa, it's about Arya. I've found that it seems to be a common misconception, but when you look at the quote and look at the context, it's clearly about Arya. The quote:
*
"Bring me the face," said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya. - The Ugly Little Girl
*
So at this time Arya is with the Faceless Men and trying to become No One. She is distancing herself from who she is and also referring to herself as "a girl". In this quote Arya said she had "known a girl who loved lemon cakes" and followed it up with, "No, that was not me, that was only Arya." We see in this quote that Arya is trying to convince herself that she wasn't that girl who loved lemon cakes anymore. So if this was about Sansa, surely she would have said something like "No that was Arya's sister, not mine" or something similar. Instead she explicitly says "that was not me, that was only Arya".
*
I think a lot of people automatically think lemons are reserved for only Sansa's story, but it's made clear earlier in Arya's story that she too loves lemons. Hear are some quotes telling us this:
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A man was pushing a load of tarts by on a two-wheeled cart; the smells sang of blueberries and lemons and apricots. Her stomach made a hollow rumbly noise. "Could I have one?" she heard herself say. "A lemon, or … or any kind." - Arya V AGOT
*
Arya would have given anything for a cup of milk and a lemon cake, but the brown wasn't so bad. - Arya V AGOT
*
These quotes aren't specifically claiming that she outright loves lemons, but in the first quote, lemon was her first request for the pastry, which tells us she prefers it over the other flavors. And the fact that she wants a cup of milk and a lemon cake over anything else in the second quote, to me says that this is one of her favorite foods as well. :)
*
Now I'm not saying that Arya loves lemons more than Sansa nor am I trying to take away from Sansa's story and character in any way but I think it's clear that they both shared a love of lemons growing up, and why not? It wasn't exactly a prominent fruit for the girls, they only had limited access to them as they were shipped from Dorne and not exactly cheap, so it makes sense they both preferred this treat. Arya's favoring of the lemon definitely isn't as prominent in her story compared to Sansa's but it makes sense. Sansa is always in the privileged position to have access to them despite being a hostage, and Arya didn't have access to this type of food for several books so she just doesn't think about it. So while lemons are more of a thing in Sansa's arc, including the symbolism, it definitely pops up in Arya's as well, but way less frequently. And I know some people will be chomping at the bit about this and claiming I'm taking away from Sansa, but I'm not, it's clearly something GRRM added into the books that the girls shared, and honestly I love that while he made these girls opposites in a lot of ways, he also gave them several similarities as well. :)
George rr Martin is a true genius when it comes 2 these stories.. I hate Sansa but wat she did here probably kept her alive
Who was Jane Pools father
As we didn't hear about her in the show
I hate Sansa, shes even worse than Joffrey.
I read the books and just can't help but hate Sansa ... always selfish, always putting herself first.with her father, sister, the friend she gave without mercy just because her crying was bothering her
@@jacy3129
Everyone likes to say "Oh I can't stand Sansa in the show, but I like her in the books." And I'm like, uhhh in the books she's just as bad so far.
@@JulioVonGhoulio exactly
@@jacy3129 She never gave her friend
Great show, ladies! Ya know, I feel Sansa has put so much of who she is, and who she is going to be, into this Kings Landing basket, that when it starts to unravel, she is faced with an identity crisis. If she gives up this dream, then who or what CAN she believe in? On the other hand......her siblings are all very young, and seem to be able to adapt to the new reality much quicker. Maybe it will pay off later, that she is slow to decide what kind of a person she wants to become. Thoughts?
By the way, why the hell do people think that Sansa telling Cersei was the point of no return???? Why???
Nedd had already challenged Cersei directly. IT WAS NEDD!!!!!!
People seem to be oblivious that Nedd pretty much had already declared open war to Cersei. Threatening Cersei and all that. There is no way Cersei was not already going to move for the throne. All events would likely still unfold as they did. The only option for things to be different would have been for Nedd to support Cersei after Robbert´s death....or Renly.. Which, Cersei and Renly did give him a chance. Cersei pretty much threw Nedd all possible bones. Nedd was the one who caused everything by deciding to support Stannis. There would still be a war. And its very unlikely the Starks would have been allowed to leave Kings Landing. With or without Sansa telling Cersei, Cersei was well aware that the game was on. It was Nedd who failed to plan a proper escape or a way to stay alive at Kings Landing.
The point of no return is when Cersei clearly tells Nedd "You win or you die". The game was on. Nedd needed to fully back Renly in order to get his girls outside the city. Renly was the only one who had enough knights and who would play with Nedd.
As for Sansa being responsible for Poole......yeahhh....because Robb did not loose the North and did not open the North for the Bolton. If Robb had kept his head in place, there would have been no need to marry "fake Sansa" with Bolton. But if you think about the butterfly effects.......lets go what if.
What if Sansa and Arya escape Kings Landing by boat? Nedd would still stay to try and seize the city for Stannis? Most likely! Joffrey would still call Robb south with Nedd in jail. Robb would still start the Civil War.
Then the girls would be back at Winterfell in time for Theon. And yes....they would be very safe over there. Absolutely!!!!!
THANK YOU! Sometimes when I hear how other readers interpret the situation, I feel like a crazy person. You're right, it was over the moment Ned admitted he was going to snitch in the courtyard. As soon as Robert died, Ned's power in Kings Landing died too. It was too late and the only way to turn it around was for Ned to bend the knee in the throne room that day. And they still probably would have kept one girl as a 'ward' to make sure their were no more coup attempts.
Sansa achieved nothing except getting herself locked in tower two hours sooner.
@@jessjones2766
Yup, it is known! Just, some people do not like to see it because they love Nedd too much.
The only realistic way to get the girls out of Kings Landing was to side with Renly. Renly was the only one who had his own military force available (the books are more clear on this vs the series). This is why Renly was able to leave the city. Because he got his knights together and ready for a dash. And the city guard + Lannister did not want to try and fight them. They did see them leave but just let them go.
So, if Nedd had joined forces with Renly, adding whatever Stark force he still had (which was not much but he still had a couple guys), they could escort the girls out. There would likely have been a fight. Because instead of just letting Renly go....this would be Renly + Starks. So maybe there would be a fight. But I think both Renly and Nedd had more seasoned knights with them.
Plus, Nedd could have told Sansa that maybe she could get a better deal then Joffrey. He could explain her Joffrey was going to go down with war if need be. So she was much better trying to get another husband. I think if he told her they must go with Renly because the Lannister´s would kill them all.....Sansa would go. Problem is Nedd told Sansa nothing. As far as we know, he did not explain to her what was going on with Bran, Cat and Tyrion. So, from Sansa´s perspective, her father´s actions were impossible to understand and obviously very dangerous.
We also know Nedd was in pain and injured. Plus dealing with politics and stress for which he was not ready. I can give him understanding. But its impossible to deny that he did some of the worst possible moves. Given his actions, there was no way to save anything.
@@Ruimas28 Yes! No one ever wants to lay the blame with Ned because he's too likable. It seems to me its easier for some people to blame an 11 yr old who thinks this is some silly family feud that can be solved with a conversation than the head of the family and warden of the North.
"Sansa only wants to be queen" But Ned put his personal honor above the honor of his family. He put the lives of Cersei's children above his own. And unlike Sansa, he did it while he knew exactly what the stakes were. And then the day of the coup Sansa and Arya are just walking around like its an ordinary day. Its so frustrating!
THIS! Ned knew the Lannisters. He knew they had no problems killing children. He knew when he left Winterfell that Robert's court was dominated by the Lannisters, and he still took his children there.
As for Sansa writing the letters, they contributed nothing to the war of the 5 kings. (May play a role in Northern succession issues/wars later) Catlyn started it by kidnapping Tyrion. Tywin slaughtered an entire house for taking advantage of his father and trying to do the same to him. What did the Catlyn think he was going to do when he heard about Tyrion's treatment?
Is Sansa a good person at this stage in her life? No. She knows the motions of kindness, and here and there bits of true kindness and empathy come through, but she has a lot of growing up to do. Does this make her to blame for the fall of her house? No, that is on her parents.
It ok NOT to “like” characters these fandoms nowadays have this weird sense that we have to love every character so much. I don’t like sansa that much but I like reading her chapters because they are interesting. The most interesting characters often turn out to be the most complex and morally complicated. If it was up to the “fans” every character would be boring as shit. It’s sad to say but the main reason GOT was ruined was due to its immense popularity
I'm sorry, I have to disagree that Sansa shares any real responsibility for the Great Stark Fuckup. If I'm understanding the other perspective here, the thought is that if Sansa sat in her room with her hands folded in her lap they would have made it to that boat? That's not how I read the situation at all.
I'm under the impression that all these events occurred within 24hrs: Ned tries to get the goldcloaks, tries to get word to Stannis, the Starks have their last breakfast, Robert dies, Sansa talks to Cersei, Ned talks to small cousil, Joffery calls him to throne room, Ned's coup fails. Its closer to 12hrs really. Not much time for error.
Why is Sansa to blame when Ned reverse villain monologued to Cersei like two days before about his whole plan. Do we think she was sitting on her hands the whole time? Did Little Finger not go to Cersei with the goldcloak plot as soon as possible? Do we think neither LF or Varys are watching the harbor and don't know Lord Stark has chartered a boat? Do we think they were going to just walk out the front door?
She knew about the coup...why is Sansa casually saying, 'oh we're going home today', relevant to any plot? Why didn't Ned post guards with his daughters? Why was Arya allowed to go chill if the situation was so dangerous? Why didn't he spirit them away in the middle of the night? Why is this child considered a traitor when her father doesn't respect her enough to tell her what's happening? Can you be a traitor if you don't know you're in danger?
I fully agree! Glad someone finally brings it up
Its not acknowledged enough how Sansa is actually very like Ned. Ned came to Kings Landing with notions of nobility that are no less fantasy than Sansas ideas. Both can not read the politics of the Kings Landing and rely on their relationships and defer to the hierarchy. Theyre both slow to learn.
If Ned couldnt see it its unreasonable to expect a child who was taught to follow and mirror the adults in her life to wise up in a flip of a switch
I’m reading again for Sansa right now. I really didn’t like her at any point in her story, the first time through.
I’m trying to see things from her perspective and having some luck.
For the chapters before this one I noticed a lot that Septa Mordain uses the sisters against each other in a rather passive way. When Sansa gets the least bit out of line, she’s compared negatively to Arya. And when Arya acts out, Sansa is put on a pedestal to be admired in all things. The sisters have a divisive and unrealistic image of each other. Septa Mordain was a horrible educator for those girls.
Sansa, that sweet summer child. She had made that mistake twice. If only she had learned her lesson after she lost 'Lady'
Also if she and her family had returned to Winterfell, Ned would've found a suitable suiter to betrothe her to.
She may not be Queen, but she would've done well. I now wonder, assuming the Starks did safely return to Winterfell, I wonder how things change if Sansa got betrothed to Theon...
She would hate whoever is not the king.
Theon isn't Lord of anything, they would never marry her to him.
@@ismata3274 NICE😻
Ned should have put his daughter's on that ship the night before they were to leave KL and have the ship standing out in the harbor, and given the Capitan instructions on when to leave if Ned is not on the ship. He was so unprepared for KL. In truth Ned should have sent the girls home once things melted down at the Trident.
A lot of Sansa's terrible behavior can be pretty solidly traced back to Cat, who can be both politically savvy, have huge blind spots when it comes to people from her past, and be a major fail as a parent. She treated Sansa like a porcelain doll to take off the shelf to smooth her dress, fix her hair, admire her then set her back on the shelf. Sansa was born to marry a high lord and manage his castle, but Sansa was never given a clue about politics. Cat knows all this stuff because her father brought her along on his political meetings with other lords. As a mother Cat does not make Sansa spend time as a cup bearer for her father, which would have been an education that would have served her all her life as a high born lady. Cat was an idiot to let her girls go to KL without a great deal.of prep.
I would guess that Cat's treatment of Jon Snow, who looks like Arya fed Sansa's general disrespect and tepid feelings for Arya. Cat didn't abuse Jon in a void, one member of a family cannot be abused by another without it affecting everyone else. I think some of the roots of Sansa's fantasy world she lives in have to do with how Cat treated Jon, and Sansa's strong desire for things to be "nice" and like it is in the courtly stories. It keeps Sansa from reckoning with what a piece of trash her mother is, to her half brother. Instead Sansa's feelings of superiority were fed and it encouraged animosity towards Arya.
Sansa really fucked up in telling Cersie they were going, but no one ever educated Sansa on how to spot a liar, something she would have learned if she had been a cup bearer and quizzed after meetings with other lords. Her parents could have educated her to be politically savvy, not doing so cost Ned his life.
I understand why they didn't, she was 11 and maybe they did not plan to marry her until she was 16 - but still, taking her to KL this unprepared was a mistake.
But then, Ned himself had no idea what was waiting for them down there
@@traumer9622 I agree that 11 year old Sansa is really too young, but high born children in Westros are sent off to be fostered, as representatives of their families, and as hostages at incredibly young ages. Pages and squires start as school aged children. It's shocking to us today, we expect children to be in school, not leading an army, issuing legally binding laws, or ruling a kingdom. High born children in Westros take on serious responsibilities at insanely young ages, which should inform their parents that these children need to watch their parents wield power while they are growing up. Yes, many of these children have a regent or are under the influence of one or more adults, but some are acting very independently, or leading others. Cat even reminisces about traveling with her father in his lordly duties at a fairly young age, an opportunity she never gave to Sansa.
Ned was painfully unprepared for KL. It hurts to watch him do it, but he must, or else the story would be totally different. 😂 😊🐺💖
Gray Area!!!
I gotta say, Sansa wasn’t my favorite in the beginning.. but her character grew so much throughout the story..
I still see sansa as a traitor she only cares about her own personal gain, and is willing to throw her family under the bus just to get what she wants. Aray is two years younger then sansa and acts more mature and selfless.
Sansa wasn't intentionally a traitor, she was just being a silly child. Its like if your dad says "no you cant have a sleepover" so you go to the other one... and unfortunately the mum replacement in this scenario is Cersei.
I like Sansa's chapters. She's an interesting POV character. But frankly the way this fandom feels the continual need to compulsively shield Sansa from any and all criticism just because she's young and not downright evil is wild. She bullied her sister until Arya's self-esteem was so terrible that she internalized every comment Sansa and Jeyne made about her until she literally believed she was not worthy of love. There's several times she wishes Arya was a bastard like Jon so that she didn't have to count her as her "real" sibling. I'm an older sibling. I know what it feels like to be angry at little siblings. Sansa's feelings towards Arya go beyond that. The ONLY reason Sansa is so vicious towards Arya is because Arya does not conform to the standards of being a "proper" lady that Sansa is so eager to adhere to. That's it. Arya isn't mean to Sansa (beyond normal lil sibling mischief). Sansa wasn't abused by their parents. They didn't show favoritism towards Arya. Arya is a tomboy and Sansa resents her little sister's very existence because of it.
Sansa also just does NOT care for her little sister's safety like...at all. She's not scared for her or even offended when Joffery threatens her. She’s dehumanized the small folk so much that she doesn't care about Mycha being murdered only annoyed the "butcher's boy" and Arya has spoiled her date (compared to Arya who makes friends with people of all stations/backgrounds). She cares so little in fact for both Mycha AND Arya that she gets MAD at Arya for being sad about the whole affair. After she hears about how he was hacked to pieces. And at no point does she reflect on this event or Mycha and how she should have seen the signs then.
She went off to snitch on Ned because of her ‘beloved Prince’ who anyone could see does not love her and she had more than enough evidence of his character. ("Look with your eyes" / "he can make me look but he can't make me SEE" are parallel lines for the sisters for a reason. Arya chooses to actually see the unpleasant things around her. Sansa looks at the unpleasant things but does not SEE them). Defenders will say this is because she's naive. But the truth is many times she's simply lying to herself. She knows Joff and Cersei are dangerous. Knows they are why Lady is dead. She's even upset at Cersei at first, as she rightfully should be. But then she goes back to blaming Arya again and trying to get back on Cersei's favor. She refuses to SEE the truth.
She’s self-centred and has no deep relationships with any of her supposed friends. She literally gets irritated with Jeyne when she's crying because she knows her dad is probably dead. Sansa never takes responsibility for her actions and the effects they cause. Again: Sansa DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK about Arya. Even later on when she reflects on Arya its only to compare her to Margery and how Sansa thinks she would make SUCH a better sister than Arya ever did. For all Sansa knows Arya could be dead right now and she's still putting her down in her thoughts wow.
Finally, she’s poisoning an innocent (if a bit of a brat) little disabled boy, her cousin, to get her happily ever after (which she IS aware of, she just can’t admit it to herself). And look, I get she's YOUNG. But Arya is literally younger than her and has more common sense, and is much more observant. I suspect the reason people want to defend her so badly (besides her age) is because she's such a passive character who doesn't have a lot of agency or takes that many decisions on moving her plot forward. Meanwhile, other more proactive characters who are real leaders and actually move their plots forward themselves like Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, ect. are forced to make more morally dubious choices in order to survive. Choices that directly impact whether others might live or die. Sansa is easy for readers to defend because she doesn't have to make those same tough choices.
Sansa has a privilege because she is Stark , fans are gonna love her what ever she does.
Why Sansa can make mistakes because of her age and it is ok but Dany can't ? Hypocrites !
GA!!!
Ohhhh Sansa 🤦🏽♂️
“Jeyne, Jeyne. It rhymes with peen.”
Love kaci from house lorebridge, everything she says is insightful and not just a half assed answer. Love this series and u know I always hold u down gray 😎😎🍻 gonna like and share while I finish listening. 22:37 100%
Sansa is like the most relatable character to me. Her "betrayal" reminds me of the dumb things I did when I was a child, and now keep doing as an adult. Initially while reading the book I hated her, maybe because I projected myself and my self-hate into her and her actions. And by the way, the reason that Ned is dead is not Sansa. Its actually Joffrey, Cersei, Little Finger, Grand Maester Pycelle and probably Varys. Do not forget that if Ned was actually politically savvy and a bit less honorable, he could have lived, kill Cersei and the bunch, save his household. Sansa's just her father's daughter. Like Ned she did not know that other people are not as honorable as them.
DO NOT hate on Sansa; she is one of my favorite characters in the series. The arc of Sansa's character is that she transitions from the Maid to the Mother. This chapter is the process of how she gets stripped of everything: her father, family, kinsmen, best friend, her wolf, and also her dreams and delusions. After being stripped she gets emotionally and physically abused. But she always was intelligent and clever. Later she gains knowledge, patience, and wisdom. She sees everyone's pain.
Sansa is what she is.
Young inexperienced.
Has been protected and apparently very removed from anything disturbing.
Has not been told a bit about politics and court intrigue.
Has been groomed to be a High Lady or Queen as the highest possible rank.
So its to be expected that she behaves like she does.
Book Sansa is also supposed to be younger vs show Sansa. Yes, Arya too. But Arya has a different personality. Arya, by nature, has been more outgoing and has been hanging around the boys more (who attend executions and what not).
Sansa is much more a child which is acting strictly within what they were told to do. And when it comes to Joffrey, she is doing what she was told to do BY HER MOTHER! Sansa is more connected to her mother and she has been raised to be possibly the queen. Therefore, Sansa will act in all possible ways to go for that Queen position.
If you think about it, Sansa is not unlike Margaery. Margaery too is willing to do whatever it takes to be The Queen. And she clearly has been pumped into it by her Grandmother and possibly mother too. Its what they have been told to do. Margaery is just a bit more involved in politics and more aware.
And has you say, she just expects that being The Queen will get her power and protection. Which....she is not wrong about it. It just does not work in such an immediate way like she thinks it does. And she does not realize how dangerous the game is.
If you think about it, Sansa was not 100% wrong about it. In fact, Sansa´s play of being loyal to Joffrey and Cersei was the best play for survival. In fact, its her father who played wrong and placed everyone in danger. It was really Nedd and not Sansa who did not realize how dangerous Cersei + Joffrey could be. Sansa was just put between a Rock and a Hard place and she did what she thought was best. You can think that besides still trying to be Queen, she thought that was the way to keep peace and safety.
The remarkable thing is.....Sansa was not completely wrong. She did stay alive inside the capital and still at court.
The big problem with Sansa is that she was just not ready to deal with real world politics. She was told to go and play the Game of Thrones but she was absolutely not ready for it. This goes a bit on her mother who should have told Sansa a thing or 2 about the people she was going to be with. Sansa knew all about history and heraldry but she knew nothing about politics. Someone did a major fail with her. Maybe it was just not expected for a lady to be told about politics. But....Margaery was properly raised to play the game. The Starks failed tremendously with their girls. And maybe with their boys too. If one thinks about it, Robb too was nowhere aware how dangerous politics could be. He was more aware about military strategy but not much so about the dangers of doing the wrong alliances.
Let me get this sippy cup on this rainy off day
I think this chapter just reinforces Sansa's naivety. I absolutely love Sansa, she is by far one of my fav characters. I only partly blame her for telling Cersei Ned's plan to leave KL. GRRM has said she doesnthold all the blame. She made a bad choice and didn't know there was any danger in being rebellious. If Ned hadn't sheltered her so much maybe she would have acted differently.
I also don't like her dismissing Jeyne pool however i understand this is just her trying to continue living in her fantasy that everything is fine. As an 11 year old I feel most of us would be the same.
Once Ned dies however Sansa comes into her own and shows how well she knows how to survive in KL's, which I feel a lot of people don't give her enough credit for.
You could argue that Sansa, like Arya, also has her Aunt Lyanna’s wilfulness. She is a tamed wolf.
Lyanna was betrothed to Robert but she chose to elope with Rhaegar. Sansas situation is different. Her ambition is blind ambition but it’s been fed to her and ingrained in her because she is the eldest daughter.
Infinite respect for still providing asoiaf content.
So many of the peek got channels have disappeared.
At least GA, Preston, Alt Shwift X, OotGH, and In Deep GeeK are still doing ASOIAF stuff. Oh, and Bridge 4. Not too many of them have actually gone, so take heart.
Who were they?
👍
JUICE TIME!!!
Sansa is like a young Cersi..she's just not as ruthless...
Definitely a lot of parallels . . . Great point 🙂
I never liked Sansa and even disliked her more in the show! Even Arya told her that she betrayed her father in S7 and S8 killed me with her being such a bitch 2 Queen Daenerys! I think she told Cersei when Dany was going 2 Dragonstone and it cost her Rhaegal and Missandei! Varys betrayed Dany because Sansa couldn't even keep a secret 4 10 minutes! Gray, U need 2 hear The Order of the Green Hands' take on Alayne's Winds of Winter sample chapter!
I just caught for the 1st time that it's been 3 days and Sansa didn't even think to ask about her sister. SMDH! F Sansa!
I love Kacey's channel House Lorebridge, selfishly waiting for a new theory
Oh, thank you! Life has been crazy but I will do my best!!!
Yay bring on the juice!!!!!! I’m loving these obsidian nights videos! I’ve been thinking about signing up to be a guest on the podcast 😊 thank you for all your hard work Lady Gray!!
even in FFC cersei is pretty good at manipulating people, despite being clearly bonkers. most of the people she manipulates are fairly stupid, of course. lady taena is (i'm fairly sure) more than a match for her.
I really wish more people would make theory videos about Lady Taena. I've watch Preston's _soooo_ many times, because I want the goss and the intrigue! It surprises me that Taena isn't discussed more. I feel she'll have a big role to play with Cersei
Lady taena is very smart and manipulating the manipulator and its all gonna come to a head all cersei does is manipulate stupid low ranking people and use her body to allow men to do things for her
I started re watching everything again and omg, lady dying still makes me mad
Sansa is young, naive, weak, afraid, foolish... but not a traitor
Exactly! Intent matters, and she never intended any harm against her father or their House.
I just cant with sansa at all.
Sansa is prejudiced and elitist ... and she did betray her half brother, who in the end was never a real brother to her.
You're just proving Gray's point, that a lot of the Sansa hate comes from the show. She is not prejudiced and elitist in the books, and she doesn't betray Jon Snow. Newsflash: Dan and Dave are incompetent writers. Jon's stupidity, Dany's entitlement, Tyrion's uselesness in the later seasons, they all come from them not knowing how to write compelling characters.
Never realized people hated Sansa. I just thought it was an unfortunate reality that people can be so young, naive, flawed, and frankly desperate. Just SMH. But I think her journey is one of the best.
So true
GRR said 5 would make it to end. Why couldn’t it be Daenerys not sansa. Sansa I feel turned evil. The only good thing was executing little finger, but I think that only happened because of arya
I understand that Sansa is just a naive child...but when I compare har to Arya who is even younger yet knew what was up, I just can't...
That’s the same for me!!!!
I'm more Sansa critical, but Arya is my favorite character, and it's really hard not to compare the two all the time, because unfortunately that's how GRRM wrote the two in the first book. We were meant to compare them and ultimately side with Arya. So it's definitely hard not to do this. But Arya is leaps and bounds ahead of Sansa, even at playing the game of thrones, because that's what Arya is essentially learning how to do in a round about way, considering her skills parallels Varys'. I just hope Sansa catches up in the next two books. Now this isn't to say Sansa isn't intelligent in her own way, but she is definitely more behind at this time in several ways.
I should, shouldn't I?????
Nahhh, y'all already get it
Lmao
Gray Lady returns
🤣 A Roman walks into a bar, holds up ✌🏽, and says 5 beers 🍻.
😑 Bruh 🤣🤣🤣🤣💀
@@Huey_Newton 😁
Yooooo 😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂
I don’t get it
Hey Gray it's been awhile I'm still trying to find a way to get back into A Song of Ice and Fire post the season 8 disaster.
What is worrying is, whats gonna happen if this betrayal resurfaces in the future. Sansa is already a fugitive for Joffreys murder. The North may protect her, until THIS betrayal comes up. Its worrisome as to how the Northeners are gonna react. She did made this horrible mistake as a CHILD, but are the Northeners gonna care about context? She got her father killed.
Arya is Robb's heir and that will create the tension between arya and sansa when they're back in winterfell...I think that season 7 plot was a george plot but it only makes since if they both have claim to winterfell...and eventually Ned's poem will come into play and they give the claim to Jon
I know sansa has done terrible things but I’m always drawn to defend her same thing with cat, I guess I just love the Tully’s.
I like Sansa, tbh. She starts out as a literal, innocent, naive child, and over time, as she gets betrayed and abused time and time again, she learns how to be strong, and never allows herself to become a victim again.
Isn't she still getting manipulated by Littlefinger though? She is learning to be strong but at some point she is going to have to accept the fact that she fucked over her entire family.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 She is.
Thanks for having me on! 🖤
At first the mistakes she makes are out of innocence. But when should she f’n know better!!!
The choice was to either trust her father who loved her or a prince. Like I can understand where’s she’s coming from but man this was just selfish.
First all Sansa has was obedient, and thats how got what she wanted. However when Sansa didn’t get her way for the first time in forever she told the Queen. In Sansa’s defense we’ve all made fools of ourselves for someone we liked or loved. Sansa didn’t consider the consequences of what her actions, before she committed them.
Thanks.
Sansa is not a traitor. That would be a very heavy word. To speak of betrayal, one has to do it with "betrayal" awareness and malicious intent. Was it a childish move? I think not that either. We all became children, how many people did something like this? I think Sansa's choice is something in between; The 2nd thing closest to betrayal. Sansa stans often underestimates Sansa's espionage, but even GRRM says Sansa has a share of what happened to Ned.
The episode you are discussing is one of the most ridiculous things of Sansa ... The one who is good is herself, the bad one with the blood of traitor is Arya ... so her father is a traitor? She doesn't even think to ask for her after she almost cause to be caught her sister, and her attitude towards Jeyne and the aftermath are disturbing as well. Sansa is better now than her early times, smarter and more open-minded in later books. Despite this, she is still not fully wise, she still trusts the wrong people and lies to herself and believes it. Even Arya is smart and conscious enough to say that not everyone who behaves friendly when she was 10-11 years old is not friends. Arya is not a genius, she is a smart girl. It's obvious that Sansa is below her intelligence level. Despite this, Sansa has potential, not an idiot. Her future is brighter if she comes to the level of fully seeing and accepting these truths.
Sansa was loyal to her betrothed, while Lyanna 'ran away' from her betrothed. Both ended in disaster for the Stark's. What are you supposed to do Ned?
So wish you did the audio books!
Based on clues in the first book Tyrion will be king in the end and his marriage to Sansa will be upheld and Sansa will be queen.
Oooh, I'm totally cool with that! I adore Tyrion, and I always kinda hoped he and Sansa would be together in the end, and she would learn to love him, despite him not being the type of man she always dreamed of marrying 😊
@@BeautifulHades I think that Sansa will see the value in him that she couldn't when her head was full of songs, he was good to her when she was at her lowest. I adore Tyrion and I see him going places.
Good quality video in this shitty rain. Thank you. Btw could you react to the Daemon and Rhaenyra leaked costumes
Either or question is posed: *a bisexual enters the chat*
Y not both? 👀
🥁 🤣
🤍🤍 I loved your last 2 streams, well I guess that was one but split into 2 lol. Either way loved all the different views!
Cersei may be the last one left standing in "A Dream of Spring"
Lmao "my beautiful Joffrey" -Sansa
I think that Sansa might or might not die in The Winds of Winter, but before that, she'll take Cersei with her to the grave.
Thank you both so much for a great video!!
Will Daenerys free the slaves in the other free cities in esso
People are too hard on sansa. She was a hostage getting abused everyday.
this whole section of AGOT is sad.
thanks again Gray!! another great video!!
Haven’t even watched a second yet...TRAITOR
Sansa equals Judgey!!!
I luv u gray area
Omg why is sansa being a child so frustrating? SHE IS A CHILD! Come on give the lil girl a lil break. however, I really don't like the fact she betrayed her father.. but still, She's a child. We are all naive and make stupid mistakes when we are children. And even as adults
Back again
I just don’t like her, the show made me hate Sansa, but my problem is with her character in general even in the later books. I think so many character endure and overcome so much more than her and yet she is (I think) being set up to get everything she wants. I hate that!
I feel so much for Jeyne Poole, I hope that girl never forgives Sansa for her part in ruining her life.
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As far as Sansa goes I despise every aspect of her. She's the reason why I feel like the phrase "just a kid" should no longer be a plausible excuse
Exactly! Arya was two years younger than Sansa and she never would have betrayed her father like that.
@@hannahbrennan2131 But Arya isn’t really a realistic character she’s supposed to only be a child yet her thoughts and actions and even the things she’s capable of don’t match the age George “gave” her. So your comparisson doesn’t make any sense. Arya is what 9? 11? How can a preteen be like Arya?
@@rai2423 When I was nine, I was a lot like Arya, so she is a realistic character.
@@hannahbrennan2131 Arya _did_ cause the downfall of her family to continue by getting Jaqen to kill people who Arya wanted dead in the moment, when she could have gotten Jaqen to kill Tywin. A monumental f*ckup. I like Arya, though she did do the above, and served Roose as an obedient cupbearer, because she was terrified of what would happen if she wasn't, like Sansa. Sansa was under constant manipulation by adults. It's just a fact. She did immense wrong, and it had grave consequences, though I can understand it.
@@hannahbrennan2131 No the hell you weren't lol.
Traitor!
I honestly believe Sansa would of sold her family out a second time. Because after a few books she basically is only focused on being Queen.
Where do you get that from? As far as I know, she is to marry Harry the heir, if the Vale, and that isn't even her primary goal, it is just something Littlefinger wants for her
@@traumer9622 so where I am getting this from is the fact that she is still making the wrong friends. So when she goes to the Vale she is still in love with all the songs and stories. In fact at this point I honestly think she is as useful as little Robin.
@@frankybee9 okay, valid - but she is not focused on being Queen, right? (And I don't see her selling out her family again after her loss only because she still makes dumb decisions, but I can see where you come from)