This is exactly what I'm talking about-- me implying that curlfeather wasn't as bad as a parent as crowfeather (who was not there for his son) Has caused a bunch of people to flood into the comments to assume that i think curlfeather has done nothing wrong or that she's not a villain, despite me repeating over and over again in the video that this **isn't** me saying that Curlfeather did nothing wrong. I will not fight with you about Crowfeather, I will simply delete your comment-- His own book from his own perspective acknowledges that he wasn't in his son's life, and that is the canon I'm drawing from.
Moonkitti I do not read warrior cats and I haven’t for like 5 years. 100% of my warrior cats knowledge comes from enjoying the sound of your voice. (Also the human mind tends to be awful at nuance so I’m not surprised by the response).
Don't worry Moonkitti I completely agree with you here. Curlfeather reminds me a lot of Queen Coral. A character who obviously loves their children but does bad things at the same time.
@@sanicpowers6253 Crowfeather constantly belittled and ignored Breezepelt, even hitting him on one occasion, driving him to join forces with literal HELL. I think that’s worse, because at least Curlfeather cared about her daughter and tried her best to protect her.
Honestly, Curlfeather being a loving mother who also manipulated Frostpaw is more interesting than her always being evil and hating her daughter. It's more realistic to how manipulative parents work. They do genuinely love their children and want them to succeed, but also use their love as a tool to get what they want from their child. It makes Frostpaw's struggles coming to terms with this more real. I hope the writers stick the landing with this and give Frostpaw and Curlfeather's relationship a solid conclusion where she can reflect on her mother and her mother's intentions.
it’s just so funny to me how the fandom has begged for more antagonistic/morally grey she-cats but the second we get one she’s demonized while splashtail gets the woobification treatment
how dare a warriors mom not be 100% nice and perfectly behaved but my baby splashtail is just a little guy who made some mistakes UWU hes pretty so its fine he's a murderer
Curlfeather having complexity makes her so much more interesting as both a character and as a motivation for Frostpaw. It’s so incredibly difficult to reconcile the good memories you have with your parent with the pain/abuse/manipulation you suffered under their care as well. This is especially true if your guardian is already dead - there’s no way of ever gaining proper closure. It’s hard, it’s painful to unpack that trauma. Frostpaw having to reconcile these feelings would be far more interesting.
@@Moonkitti Aye, and to a degree I can understand why younger folks wouldn’t cotton onto that concept - as an adult, you begin to recognize the true fallibility of your parents, how badly they messed up, how they both positively and negatively impacted you growing up. I think there’s this idea that a parent can only be either Good or Bad, when in reality parenthood is largely comprised of both, even in the healthiest of familial relationships. It’s a lot easier to understand that dynamic as an adult as you’ve had time to process and unpack your upbringing. Curlfeather, to me, reads very much as someone who’s very power hungry but still fiercely loves her kids. She recognizes Frostpaw’s utility in achieving her ambitions and manipulates her accordingly, but nevertheless gives her life to save her because her children still mean more to her than power. Frostpaw has a lot to unpack and if they truly dig into that, we could get a lot of really fun characterization and development. It will enrich both characters to lean into the idea that Curlfeather was complex and Frostpaw has to reconcile with that.
Warriors fans have a major issue with reading comprehension and not demonizing female characters for not being 100% perfect, but at the same time love to hate on female characters for being 'annoying' when they are 'perfect'... Dovewing is a pretty good example of this.
I think Curlfeather's motivation could be a dislike of how the general state of RiverClan. In AVOS, RiverClan was conquered by Darktail. A good quarter of their clan were killed by him and his Kin, and when they were freed, Mistystar decided to isolate them. However, the isolation only harmed them, as shown by the fire. Later Mistystar took the side of the imposter, exiling her own healer, Mothwing, after years and years of service and trust between them built up by Mothwing's secret. She exiled Icewing and Harelight for fighting against RiverClan, even though they took the right side in the conflict. She even refused to attend the vigil for former warriors. Curlfeather, all the while, watches this happen. She watches as her leader consistently makes the wrong choices, and refuses to own up to her mistakes. She sees her stubbornness, her refusal to change, refusal to listen. She knows something will have to change. In ASC, Mistystar finally dies, partially due to her stubbornness. Curlfeather fears her sucessor, Reedwhisker, will be the same as his mother. So she decides to kill him, and take his place, to lead RiverClan into a new era - one defined by cooperation and forgiveness, unlike Mistystar's reign. Yes, what she was doing was immoral - but it was for the common good. The vision Curlfeather saw never came to be. Left without any form of authority after the death of Curlfeather and a string of leaders, cooperation breaks down in RiverClan. Sorry for writing basically fanfic in your comments lol edit: I CALLED IT. ISH.
I really really really like this comment. Whether it's factual or not it's wonderful to get that much deeper insight of WHY Curlfeather made such decisions she did. It's entirely realistic given those main events and I'd KILL to see a super edition/side story on Curlfeather's thoughts and her mental state that drove her to do terrible things for her idea of a better clan.
@@BUGMEATT its how media thinks of murders better then child abusers, although they're both horrible. Like why can people be fans of murderers but not abusers? It's a weird double standard
SPOILERS FOR THE WIND EXCERPT: Curlfeather's motive has been revealed, it's dislike of StarClan. I think this can work, especially if they bring up all the things that happened in AVoS to RiverClan. I'm glad it's not code changes
Curlfeather is such a layered villain and it kinda boggles my mind that everyone hates her so much, shes probably the most interesting shecat villain weve ever had
what i like about curlfeather's death is that she not only sacrificed herself, she sacrificed her goals and everything she worked for to save frostpaw. i'm assuming that since starclan is implied to have sent the dogs after curlfeather, it means that they couldn't reject her if she made it to the moonpool. which, to me, means that if curlfeather saved herself and frostpaw was killed by the dogs instead, curlfeather could've still become leader if she made it to the moonpool. so everything curlfeather wanted, everything she worked for, what she killed reedwhisker and possibly her own husband for, could have been her's if she let her daughter be killed. but she didn't let that happen, because despite everything, her daughter matters more to her than anything else, and her love for frostpaw outweighs her wanting to become leader. i just think that's very interesting and makes her more nuanced than just a typical "i will do anything to become leader mwahaha!" type villain
wasn’t the dogs sent by splashtail instead? the book explicitly show that splashtail was very willing to betray curlfeather if he felt the desire to due to curlfeather not respecting him enough.
@@yelin8086 The dogs were lured into the area by Splashtail, yes. In one of the books Windclan mentions finding prey bones-implying that the dogs were lured into the area. And in one of Splashtail’s POV intros he ends it by alluding to the idea that he was the one who lured them there.
I think Curlfeather genuinely loving Frostpaw makes her character significantly more interesting than if she didn't. Because many abusive parents *do* care about their children and cannot see much they are hurting them. Or alternatively, they justify the hurt they inflict on their kids as "for their own good." I just hope the Erins don't completely ruin her character by turning her into a pure evil moustache twirling villain.
Its such a tonal shift to have TBC be an arc about kitty afterlife and hell, then ASC doing a 180 and ignoring the immense control the afterlife has. And just makes Curlfeather's character look a little dumb for her willing to go to literal and very real hell just for a chance at power becuase she woke up one day and decided to be evil and ambitious.
I highly doubt it's as black and white as "she just wanted power" we don't know her intentions yet, we don't know why she did what she did. And the tone shift is interesting in my opinion, having two arcs back to back to back solely based around the afterlife would be bland and repetitive. They've already said all they need to say about starclan/dark forest. The living cats are more important. Starclan only exists because of the living cats
True that her motivation isnt known yet, but as moonkitti says it could go from something new to Berryheart 2. And I'm not asking for ASC to be TBC 2 but rather that these clans that witnessed GHOST POSSESION and the powers of hell to acknowledge this revelation. And not simply shrug off and say, eh nothing new.
@@Silvermoon32109 that's fair, they sorta brushed over the whole possession thing, I think that's also fault of the writers, they were more focused on code changes, and the dark forest plot was just a means of getting to that point
I want Frostpaw to be conflicted about her feelings towards her mother and not immediately drop any feelings and decide she's just forever and always was evil. Curlfeather sacrificed herself to save Frostpaw from dogs, a death we know to be extremely terrifying and painful. I have to wonder if, in a way, Curlfeather chose to go to the dark forest, thinking she deserves it for putting her daughter in such danger
"well maybe people are harsher on curlfeather because bad moms are more personal" there are still people who deny that crowfeather abused his child. the books themselves in fact will go the extra step to absolve fathers of the abuse they do (the field guides pawning off the blame onto nightcloud for the longest period of time, tom getting redeemed by death, the authors talking about how tigerstar 1 loves his kids, sandgorse being redeemed by death, dotc spending the entirety of its books talking about how amazing skystar is as he abuses his child and the cats around him). it's such a clear bias that the writing team and the community will bend over backwards to try and provide nuance to every male character no matter how awful but the moment a more nuanced mother is introduced she's treated as satan incarnate.
It might be the opposite as bad father's are more common. People WANT to believe that a father could turn out good, that a father will do the bare minimum and show up and still love his kids even while busy. A mom however is always supposed to be there
yea this arguement is BS. abusive fathers, shitty friends, all of these should be personal. the villainization of morally grey mothers is just misogyny.
@catboyedgeworth2469 never said it wasn't mysogonistic, I litterally just stated that from a society stand point a bar minimum father works harder then a loveable mother
I have no clue how you could actually read the books and think Curlfeather never cared about Frostpaw. If you just read what other people say about the books, sure. But if you read the books you see that Curlfeather is never flippant about Frostpaw’s feelings or safety. Like the books even state, Curlfeather’s last act was making sure Frostpaw was safe and to give her a final warning. And while we don’t know if she was as attentive to Graypaw and Mistpaw, they don’t show any resentment towards her and seem to be grieving her in as much a way that a modern Warriors side character can. She’s not a Rainflower or a Mapleshade, I can’t even say she’s a Zira from The Lion King 2 (who only showed affection to her son in his dying moments). You could call her somewhat similar to Bluestar, putting her children’s needs aside for a possibility at power while still loving them. Although Bluestar’s motives were 100% more noble.
It makes frostpaw feel that way, and it’s very understandable, but the books make it clear curlfeather cared about frostpaw. It’s specified she did, riverstar says her last act was to save frostpaw, which shows she did love frostpaw enough to die for her. I’d think the scene alone would show that, but I guess not?
@@marigoldsstudio If Mapleshade trying to escape ThunderClan territory as fast as possible after herself and her kittens were unjustly exiled makes her as bad as an abusive Rainflower, then what is Bluestar?
I really love Curlfeather. People so often act like people who love you can't hurt you, or that loving someone fixes that damage. Maybe it's silly, but having this refuted by warrior cats of all things means a lot to me. Curlfeather loved Frostpaw and her siblings so, so much, but she still hurt them. I dunno, it just feels like a big deal that such an unnuanced series would write something like this
On the subject of interesting AUs... my favorite idea is Rusty's kittypet father being Pine instead of Jake. I mean imagine Tigerstar being his half-brother. Imagine all the members of the clan that were around during Pinestar's rule immediately recognizing Pinestar's spitting image in Rusty. Imagine the hush-hush gossip that Firepaw would only hear snippets of and not really understand. Imagine Tigerstar hating Firepaw multiple times over. Imagine the twist reveal! IT COULD'VE BEEN SO GOOD
I haven’t watched the video yet, but what makes Curlfeather so COMPELLING and tragic and nuanced to me is that there is such a realistic divide between her selfishness, ambition, and abject cruelty, and her genuine tenderness and deep love for Frostpaw. It’s made her one of the best villains in Warriors history, and certainly the best female one (though there are slim pickings), because it’s so accurate to how “bad” people really are: there is almost always a stark contrast between their public self and their private self. She killed for her ambition, true; she chose to die before her ambition could ever be realised to save her daughter’s life, also true. Is that not spectacular? She used Frostpaw, but she chose to die for her when it would have been so easy to let her die instead and go fulfil her ambition. What a brilliant character. The fact they still had her truly, selflessly love Frostpaw - an utterly inarguable fact - at her own expense is fantastic.
Im so shocked that the fandom perception of her is negative; she has been one of the most interesting characters in a long time for me! Her dying before we get to know what she has done, what she knew and what she was even up to at all has been so intiguing. More than Splashtail IMO too, he was more. cartoonishly evil to me? While Curlfeather has been so unreadable and such a mystery, and i love that
I honestly really like curl feather as a direct comparison to berry heart this arc, like they're obvs gunna both fail but seeing berry openly manipulate her kin and be loud and proud of her views(and kicking out ts 2nd) where we've got a whole exact situation just in quiet instead
Curlfeather's slaw recipe: 1/2 Daikon Radish 1/4 Red Cabbage Some carrots I think I think also some white cabbage Shred all Add a bit of maple syrup, sesame oil, toasted sesame seeds That's it
Make sure you also mix a drop of mapleshades maple syrup with the maple syrup to get that useless bit of dark forest that curl feather had to deal with for somewhat reason!
I sincerely hope that they don’t turn Curlfeather into a purely bad character or reverse on her love for her kits. Reading Frostpaw’s realization that her mother was involved hit me hard; her reactions were exactly the same as what I went through when my best friend in middle school moved away and stopped talking to me. With that time apart even as I tried to keep in touch she eventually stopped reaching out and I questioned whether she ever cared about me just like Frostpaw and her mom. It wasn’t until years later when I got the chance to meet her again that I told my mom how I felt and she told me that she knew it broke my friend’s heart too, and that she cared about me just as much as I did her. The books have the chance to write a powerful message about how distance can dilute your perception of someone and how easy it can be to villainize someone for hurting you when that may never have been their goal. Some people like Berryheart don’t care as much whether they hurt you if it gets them what they want, but that isn’t everyone. Curlfeather’s a fantastic opportunity for a character who’s right in some ways (being a loving mother) and wrong in others (organizing the takeover), and that ambiguity as it currently stands is a refreshing change.
Unrelated second note, Frostpaw’s realization really feels like the fire scene of this arc and I wonder if it was planned before the murder mystery like what happened in POT
It's far more interesting if Curlfeather loves Frostpaw, but lets her own ambitions cloud her judgement. The books and fandom are definitely biased when it comes to mothers vs fathers and hold them to vastly different standards
Honestly the fact that Rainflower got to go to starclan and not Curlfeather is confusing people need to understand that morally gray cats exist my point is that they should both should not have gone to the dark forest or starclan there needs to be an In between
Curlfeather planned and initiated murder?? While I agree Rainflower should be in the Dark Forest for being inherently cold and evil, using Curlfeather's situation as leverage to why Rainflower should also be in cat hell isn't very logical.
@@hazelfang3570 yeah, I agree. rainflower is a horrible parent but as hard as it is to take, curlfeather was a part of a murder, so her crimes are worse.
@@rabbitdosethings I've always felt this way as well! There's a lot of cats who I feel should be put in an inbetween rather than go to StarClan or The Dark Forest.
What about Juniperclaw? He poisoned Skyclan and threatened to wipe them out “for the good of his clan” And in his last moments, he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save a Skyclan queen ( Violetshine ) in the flood, but still got sent to the dark forest, maybe it’s because he just wanted to please Tigerstar by saying “Tell Tigerstar I am sorry” But it depends on his intentions, because his clan forgives him after he died and Tigerstar hoped he was in Starclan, even though he was wrong.
I think curlfeather hits a lot closer to home than more villainous cats, a sort of umbridge voldemort situation. A bunch of people taking that betrayal personally.
I really like Curlfeather because of this complexity and I really would want to see what her intentions were. It also makes another problem for Frostpaw but this one isn't a problem easily solved.
My theory is that Curlfeather managed to contact frostpaw from the darkforest. I think she told frostpaw to pick the less obvious choice becuase she didn’t want splashtail to become leader. I know this is silly but, think about it. Splashtail was helping her execute a plan so SHE could be leader. Part of it failed and now he could supposedly be wanting to become leader. And because he is a respected strong warrior, he could be chosen as an “obvious” choice. Curlfeather doesn’t want him to be chosen because of simply jealously or resentment. I’m not sure though. in the second point illustrated during 15:32, it says that it would be strange for Curlfeather not to be upfront. But she could possibly feel guilt about what she did to frostpaw (manipulating/using her) but still not want Splashtail to become leader. There forth she wouldn’t be able to say “don’t chose splashtail” without explaining a reason behind it. Thereforth saying “choose someone not obvious” being a reasonable option.
I was listening to this video while doing chores (Thus not paying attention to the note at the beginning of the difference between “curl” and “crow” ) and I kept hearing “Crowfeather.” I thought warriors had made Crowfeather into a villain trying to take over RiverClan and I completely accepted it 😂
Even if Curl`s characther reminds readers about their narcissist(?) mom/female guardians i REALLY like me a nuanced she-cat in warrior cats! i mean - rainflower straight up just hates her child and that`s all, but curlfeather is like... cunning and ambitious? and yeah - she uses her daugther but she still cares for her, so she is not just a simple AO3 evil mom, but a bit more 2-dimensional
hey, I'd really recommend not using the word "narcissistic" here! NPD is a very real, serious mental illness, and by demonizing it and using it as a negative adjective, it's furthering the stigma! self-centered or anything similar is a much better choice of wording
see the thing is, I DO like her for being a complex villain, but I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing her as just. a bad person. because a lot of people who had to deal with parents who did even LESS than curlfeather are still extremely hurt by such things. like- she literally pretended that Frostpaw had predicted her fathers death. she lied about reedwhisker's death. and I don't think caring about someone is always a good thing... you can care about them and you can "love" them for only your own self interests. like seeing your children as just an extension of yourself rather than their own people. and the whole reason she HAD kittens might even be becuase she wanted to use them for her plans. idk. if i were frostpaw i wouldn't forgive her.
I think Rainflower has some nuance too. She's a disgusting person but the way she treats her son isn't because she randomly hates him. She's a great character, I like being angry at her.
I've kinda loved the idea more of Curlfeather getting lost in her ambition and forgetting what matters most to her: her children. She doesn't fully realize what she's done to Frostpaw (assuming her actions are only white lies to her kitten, not traumatizing) until in her last moments when she snaps out of it and gets hit by a trcuk of realization of what shes been doing to Frostpaw. or maybe even just immediately knowing leadership would never be worth more than frostpaw.
now, her keeping up with the lie in starclan is pretty damning. but what if thats another attempt at saving her? "dont trust anyone" followed up by her convincing frostpaw to choose a leader could very well be her trying to protect frostpaw from splashtail murdering her for turning on him. maybe she realized starclan might not give splashtail his 9 lives and figured it would work out? shes just such an interesting cat to think about
Sorry one final comment: i think of the medicine position as not exactly being a good thing for Frostpaw to have been forced into. The medicine cats are always under an extreme amount of pressure and tend to witness more death and difficult decisions than any normal warrior will ever face. They learn terrible prophecies about their future and sometimes there's nothing they can do about it but wait for someone (or more) to die. It puts them at serious risk of becoming ill themselves (Cloudberry or whoever goose's mentor was) It's not something that should be decided for you by any average clan cat. It also could leave Frostpaw defenseless should she ever be attacked and i dont remember mothwing ever teaching frostpaw how to fight. (spottedleaf died because of this i believe?) While her mother's death and the leader issue was putting frostpaw under obvious stress, i think her position could have added to that and led to her eventual breakdown when asked to return to the moonstone. everyone was looking to frostpaw for a prophecy and every cat knew, even back when frost was a kit, that mothwing had no connection to starclan. frostpaw is a shell of herself for so much of the story because of how terrified and stressed she is while being a medicine cat. of course, when curlfeather decided on the position for frost, things were better. Only reedwhisker was going to die and the clan was going well. she couldn't have predicted misty's death nor frostpaw's floundering when it came to deciding on a leader. so she meant well... but it all went terribly and frostpaw was struggling under the weight of it. I've always thought that there's always been more of a reason so few cats ask to be a medicine cat: its not just because being a warrior is more appealing, its because being a medicine cat is on the level of a deputy. it's not easy at all I get where you were going with the piano lessons thing, but there's not a lot of consequences to going to just going to some additional classes. Going into training to be a religious doctor, on the other hand... Can really mess someone up if they arent mentally ready for it. sorry for typos my computer is having that youtube issue with chrome where it lags terribly
@@Huijiijjjjjjjihh No. It gas been stated in canon. Frostpaw said all of her dreams were nothing but dreams and when she had real starclan visions she said that it was different from her prior visions.
It threw me for a loop bc I didn’t see how she was manipulating Frostpaw before the reveal but after the twist, her manipulation became so painful obvious yet you can still see she cared about her daughter and wanted to protect her in her own twisted way. She sacrificed herself to save her daughter when she could have easily left her behind to get her nine lives.
The moment Splashtail started evily licking his paw to draw it slowly over his ear was when I lost interest in him as a villain lol. He just seems so simple compared to Curlfeather!
I LOVE morally complex characters and I LOVE Curlfeather for this reason, I hope we get to understand her a little more in the remaining books for this arc. I really like how every POV in this arc has a complex and strained relationship with their mother, it's an interesting thru line and I wonder how it will resolve.
Its so wierd to me that people hate on Curl but love Splash. I mean I'm not shocked but its still wierd because I'm the opposite I found Curl to be interesting but obviously she loves her children, she died making sure Frost was safe. Splashtail on the other hand literally is so much more uncomfortable to me because he doesn't care what happens to frost. He just wants the power. Like y'all remember him literally playing along with Frost,a APPRENTICE STILL, liking him why still trying to convince her to consider things through. He literally told her "Oh we'd have to wait until you're a warrior anyway so you have time to think!" Like i remember having to stop when reading that, because even if he doesn't like her that way THAT'S SO GROOMY. He'll do anything to get what he wants, and why he's an interesting villain i honestly can't see myself caring if his reasons are more then just ambition Why Curl I'm completely invested in. I actually think it be interesting if its less xenophobia and more that she doesn't trust Misty and Reed to lead anymore after everything they seen in recent books. Being held captive by The Kin Mistystar's actions in broken code. I could see her maybe thinking if something dangerous sets in again that they would fail to protect the clan like before. Even Reedwhisker who maybe never questions Misty because, hey that's his mom, she might think will lead just like her Just imagining she has similar reasons for her motivations as Berry, the suffering of her clan and worry for her kits, but its not assuming everyone outside riverclan will be bad. Maybe thinking that if one IS bad again that it wouldn't be handled like it should. Just thoughts ^^
The fandom has a strange way of demonizing female characters while defending the male ones with their lives… And before y’all say anything, yes I am aware that Mapleshade is one of those characters that is defended heavily by the fandom but are there really any other female characters that get her treatment…?
Mapleshade is constantly lambasted by the fandom, with people arguing that she was ontologically evil and was a horrible person from the very beginning. People get angry when people sympathize with Mapleshade lately. People tend to defend Appledusk, whose only major character trait is that he’s a cheater.
You should see the amount of Brambleshart defenders on the Warriors subreddit. Most of them just think 'Squirrelflight is annoying/she was mean to him/he has twauma: ((' Her too, goddam??
possibly frecklewish? alot of people like her now and are fine with her and will defend her. but with mapleshade the fandom seems more mixed on her like some people think shes bad from the start and some think she was always good but went down a dark path. people kinda tend to defend squirrelflight alot too which is understandable.
@@jamforbreakfast Frecklewish was hated by the earlier fandom, but as more videos like this one come out the fandom perception shifts and characters like her end up garnering more sympathy.
Has anyone else noticed that Curlfeather manipulating children to do her dirty work is a pattern? She quote ‘approached Splashtail while he was an apprentice’. Granted Splashtail did turn on her but not until after Reedwhisker was already dead. I do believe Curlfeather loves Frostpaw. But you can manipulate and use people who you love. I just thought that she manipulated both of these cats while they were young is a very interesting detail.
Exactly, female characters that are morally grey or just evil are hated on and demonized But characters that are basically the same yet male are lived and praised with some calling them "my baby" Or trying to justify their actions fr
If Frostpaw had a Dark Forest dream or something with Curlfeather explaining her intentions and why she did what she did, and that she still loved her, it’d be a nice way to end her story in my opinion. Sure it’s been done before, but having it be done for a reason other than to use the living cat or kin is definitely new. This could be a hot take, but Curlfeather bringing her to cat hell and then telling her that she loves her during a hard time would be a nice, kind of wholesome way to tie up some loose ends.
It always confuses me when people are like "I'm fine with murder but I draw the line at bad parenting 😡" Like??? A villain that murders is absolutely way worse than one that manipulates their children from a moral standpoint lol
the thing is, more people suffer from "bad parenting" than "being murdered" so i feel its due to it being relatable than anything. its in nearly all fandoms: abusive family, manipulators, bullies....they're def gonna get more vitriol thrown at them than a homicidal manics lol
Speaking on Curlfeather's potential motivations, I also hope they don't take the wa wa code change bad route, particularly because there is So much more that could be drawn upon in river clan specifically. Despite their general lack of presence in the entire franchise, a lot still has been happening with them over the past few series, and it'd be so much more interesting if they actually filled in some of those gaps of how members of riverclan actually felt during all of that. It could even allow for reason to hold smth against reedwhisker without needing to retcon anything in, as innaction itself could serve as motivation if the core conflict is with how mistystar handled the past few arcs. Now I'm not expecting this since splashtail is a young chap and I'm guessing they're going to go for a motive that more directly involves him, but it would still be so interesting if he Was manipulated into being her little lackey from childhood, and it'd add some interesting parallels between him and frostpaw along with making him much more interesting than if he was just ambitious or smth.
8:09 Frostpaw: I'm scared, Mom! Curlfeather: do you trust me? Frostpaw: Yes! Curlfeather: Then come on! Curlfeather: ... Rule Number One, never trust anybody.
I think that Blackstar and Curlfeather are quite similar morally wise, they both did some horrendous things that generally would be considered un redeemable. Though, Blackstar seems to regret killing Stonefur and Curlfeather has shown almost 0 remorse so far but I would love to see her feel some sort of sorry directly in the books so it would be without the feeling of it being a guessing game. They are both inherently bad cats, though, they both seem to have a sense of right and wrong and know that they chose the wrong one, even if one doesn’t seem to feel bad, they both get better as the series goes on. Anyway, I’d love to see how Curlfeather develops.
If Curlfeather questions Starclan's choices and therefore Starclan sent her to hell--that's really /interesting/. Considering how morally awful Starclan often is, wouldnt it be so interesting if Curlfeather doesnt like Starclan because she’s personally experienced how their faults and manipulations effect cats? I know they'll never do it, but I'd love a Starclan villian twist.
I like to think that Curlfeather is just power hungry, and Frostpaw is just the perfect vessel. Power over her kit. Ensuring and securing power for her kit. Using her kit to get power for herself - a vision to make her leader. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if she was initially appeasing Splashtail and Duskfur (with the offer of deputy positions) to get that help to secure her power. I personally find that fun. Curlfeather is unique: sure, fake signs and corrupt cat groups have been done before. BUT, manipulating/using one's kit as a pawn in all this? Secret meetings between clans? Murdering both cats of power? Making her kit believe she was a med cat in order to continue using her? Curlfeather snaked her and her followers into a possible position of power, which is impressive in itself.
AGREED !! I think she sees Frostpaw as sort of, a show of her power, of her success. I think she "loves" her because having kits in her mind makes her more successful than those who haven't. And on top of it being a sign of her power, she can use Frostpaw to further her plans. It's very interesting. I also like the idea that while she initially meant to have kittens FOR the purpose of her plans, she did start caring about them like a mother would after having them but, she still continued to go through with the plans showing she did not prioritize being a good mother, perhaps until her very last moment, but the damage had already been done, and now she has no way of fixing it.
I still think curlfeather loved frostpaw and her siblings, it just happened for frostpaw to be useful in her plans. Curlfeather could easily have thrown frostpaw off the tree and climbed it herself but didn’t and gave a warning for her, so basically setting frostpaw on the track that someone is a traitor, in simple words, destroying her plan and everything she did to work for it. I really do doubt that she never loved frostpaw as her actions say otherwise. (Not saying she’s a perfect mother but not like a certain Tom with feather in his name)
She definitely loves frostpaw, I have no doubt she does. Frostpaw may feel that way, and it’s understandable, but Curlfeather’s actions say otherwise. Curlfeather knows how to use characters to her advantage, is all. That doesn’t mean she feels nothing for them. She had the chance to get everything she wanted, but instead she chose to die for frostpaw, to sacrifice your life for someone is a clear show of immense love.
Don't get me wrong, I believe she loved frostpaw and her children. That was the only (or well, only main thing) she'd sacrifice for that power. I do believe her sacrifice was a sacrifice. The "dont trust any cat" thing was probably because she understood Splashtail and/or Duskfur would possibly target her next, so I believe that was for her protection. But otherwise, yes, she's power hungry and still manipulated frostpaw for mosty her own gain. She loved her AND used her.
I think it might be a microcosm of the Villain Abstraction problem? Where villainous characters or characters who make morally wrong decisions have can attitudes about them decided largely on how close to home their actions feel. People like splashtail and not curlfeather because a pretty awful mother is a much more common and personal problem than murder.
True… though Tigerstar is both a gen 1 character (assuming you mean TS 1st) and did have a level distance from the reader with a lot of his action (murder, bone piles, ghost magic, etc). there’s always misogyny though ig, or fandom weirdness that just kinda occurs sometimes.
I feel like some of this fandom reaction comes from the fact that manipulative moms are more "real" than, like, murderers. Murderers are so distant from most people's lives that they're only encountered in stories. A more mundane "bad guy" - like a crummy parent - is much more common and much more personal to a lot of people. It's like how (sorry for invoking Harry Potter lol) people enjoy genocidal warlock Voldemort but loathe abusive teacher Umbridge. To be clear, I totally agree with Moonkitti lol. I just think this could partially explain why people really don't like Curlfeather lol
I mostly think Curlfeather is a bad mom because she must have known that she was putting Frostpaw into a potentially dangerous position (which ended up being true) and also the extreme pressure and mental stress she knowingly inflicted on her for a prolonged time. She's no Rainflower or Mapleshade, but I still think she's a terrible parent.
Even if Frostpaw hadn’t been in any danger whatsoever, the fact she pressured her kit into a life she didn’t want is enough to say she’s a bad mother. I think a much fairer comparison (mom wise) would be Leafpool.
As a Warrior Cat RPer who plays a mildly-atagonistic character (He yelled at his pregnant friend for lying to him and accidentally hurt her friend - but feels incredible remorse over his actions and is in cat therapy/quasi-exile), seeing the fandom's black and white thinking is...scary. Like man, haha, what the fuck? Anyway, I might read this new arc just for Curlfeather. The idea of a mother who cares for her child - while also being ambitious, is a very compelling notion to me. The fact that she had these ideas in mind to secure her clan, to secure her daughter a good future - and ultimately caring for Frostpaw's well-being is fascinating; I love flawed mothers like Palebird, Mapleshade (Listen, I think she loved her children - but she genuinely did not even consider that they might *not* be happy with the notion of being loyal to both River or Thunder) and of course, Curlfeather!
curlfeather is suuuch a refreshingly interesting character, i love her sm and this whole arc, really, has just been such a good change of pace. the twist villains are all so good, etc etc. i dont understand how anyone can compare her to crooked's mother or crowfeather literally at all. she genuinely loves her kits, she's just a very,,, morally grey character. a bit more bad leaning, but the traits about her that are good is what makes her so interesting, and its annoying that people keep ignoring that
you have to keep in mind that a huge majority of the warrior cats fandom are kids or preteens. it’s really hard for a 10-12 year old to understand a complex character.
I also think it’s really funny that Mapleshade is treated as a great mom who cares so much about her babies, when in reality she is an idiotic, irresponsible mom who doesn’t know what danger is; but yeah the mom who did her best to make sure he kits where safe (which might have actually been a good contributor to her motives) is the bad mom while Mapleshade was a totally normal and great mom.
Mapleshade wouldn't have put her kits in the tree and sacrificed herself. She would've fight the dog thinking Starclan would help her and all of them would be dead
Mapleshade DID love and care for her kittens. She made a bad decision in how she crossed the river, causing them to die. But she clearly cared for them.
@@soldiaz7261 she did her best, what did you expect her to do when she was kicked out of her clan during a storm, attacked, and her AND her kits lives being threatened if they didn't leave before sunrise (which was very close). Her best choice at the time was the river
If I had to guess, Warriors just wanted to add more villain and antagonist she-cat with 95% of them being toms, and that extended to all the mommy problems. Also, I just like the idea of a character being a good mother while also happening to be evil. You know, nice is different than good and all.
Honestly, the millisecond I saw SplashTail I was like "Hmmm. Dat boi is gonna commit a murder using a chip bag". Turns out I was right. CurlFeather, on the other hand, was really cool. I kinda thought. " Ooooo look at this bean who never did anything wrong. Be cool if she committed a murder."
Your insight is always really valuable and enlightening. I love watching these kinds of videos because you have a lot of great thoughts that makes me (and hopefully others too) think! I'm not as into the books nowadays, more involved in the fandom aspects of Warriors, but even so a lot of the points you bring up are interesting from an author perspective too. Thanks for making these videos despite the confusion and negativity that can show up in the comments!
12:22 my interpretation of this section is sort of like Frostpaw coming to terms with how complicated her mother is rather than refrencing a literal/direct 'confession' or apology. Like acknowledging that curlfeather was a flawed person and her earnest expression of the philosophy 'trust no cat' was something that actually revealed a truth about herself and her own worldview. Because she was untrustworthy, she was unable to trust others. It reminds me of how parents often project their own problems onto others/their children and end up giving strange advice you only understand as an adult when you see them more as a fully formed person than just 'mom' or 'dad'. Probably the reason for so many strong reactions on this nuanced analysis is that curlfeather's character is more realistic and thus inspires a closer / more emotional reaction from readers than just a spilling blood and guts while cackling sort of villain.
Curlfeather did something?? She was one of my favorite picks from scanning the allegiances for interesting names. Along with Grasspelt (who never meaningfully showed up) and Beetlewhisker (who joined the dark forest as a living army cat I believe). All from Riverclan for some reason idk why i only remember those guys
Hey moonkitti, completely unrelated but…. When you did the Mini-talking: Reedwhisker video *OVER A YEAR AGO* you mentioned you wanted to make a video about when in the Broken Code the cats tried breaking the ice of the moonpool. (You said u wanted to call it Frozen 2 xD). Is this coming anytime soon 🧐
Honestly the mom antagonist thing imo was the theme of this arc bejng heavily female focused. 2/3rd of the mcs are girls, all their moms are prominent in the story. Most of berryhearts group is shecats. The only male antagonistic force until the 4th book is tigerstar while we have a fewobv she cat antags. I think it was book 2 or 3 where i thought "wow theres like, majority female presence in most of the story" or something like that. Would be neat to have some that arent moms tho i do agree
Can you talk about tallstar? I love him alot I love how we learn new things about wc. other than I THINK crookedstars, yellowfangs and MAYBE others his is one of book where you learn something you didn’t know about the character. He’s really cool and I like how stupid his name sounds compared to the stereotypical arc 1 names. (Sorry for my poor grammar)
i have such a weird feeling either Frostpaw is going to play into the leadership role(i just have the stupid ass feeling something is gonna put her in the forefront of that deal even harder as if shes being groomed to become leader instead of choosing the right leader)
I think most of warrior cats has motherhood a central plot or theme in the books except for a new prophecy but even then sashas children are pretty important
Personally, i feel frostpaw taking curlfeathers warning of "trust no cat" as a confesion is un subconsciously trying to make sense of her mother's betrayal. 12:21
I haven't been in the warrior cats Fandom or watched you for nearly 4 years so it's crazy to see the warriors Fandom isn't Dead lol but yeah I watched you in middle-highschool and now im going to college which is insane to me. Keep up the good work moonkitti :D
watch people in the comments scream at moonkitti for daring to say "curlfeather is perfect!!" curlfeather isn't a good cat. but not really downright irredeemable evil. i don't doubt she loves her children. maybe if she lived through the dogs she'd have a chance to redeem herswlf to a degree. hard to say now.
I'm really starting to see a Pattern in American media about how moms are THE WORST and traumatise their children always...! Every single protagonist has mommy issues. To the point that they take myths with extremely good mothers (see Demeter with Persephone and Thetis with Achilles) and turn them into the worst moms in existence. Like, what is going on over there, y'all good?
Just making moms evil would be one thing, but I'm seeing this trend come with an even more worrying twin. The fathers, if present, are absolved of their involvement. They are portrayed as victims of the evil mom's abuse too, but never seem to be forced to take accountability by the narrative for letting their wife abuse their children. Even if they were abused too, they still have a responsibility to protect their children, and not doing so makes them an enabler. But recent media like Stolas + Stella from Helluva Boss and Alador + Odelia from Owl House treat the mother as a spawn of Satan but treat the father as an innocent bean who never did anything wrong instead of someone who's in a bad situation but still failed to protect their child. It's never the mother was the worst and the father wasn't as bad but still enabled her and is also somewhat to blame. Its the female parent is literally hitler and the male parent never did a single bad thing in his life and is just as much a victim as the child.
@@yeayeayeah933 I think the Owl House did all right. Amity refusing a hug and instead shaking his hand speaks volumes to me. They might've had more time to delve into it if it weren't for the season 3 cancellation, but I definitely see intentions of "he was abused, but was still complicit."
Hearing your talk about no black and white people makes me think a lot about the My Pride series. There's a lot of morally gray characters in that series that people feel about in a similar way to Curlfeather.
Hey moon! Idk if you might see this but I’ll really like to see a Mini-Talk of Snowfur. Snowfur who was bluestars sister and thistleclaw mate. I’ll think to see what else about her is interesting and she’s kinda a forgotten character.
the current level of media literacy is.. bad. Painful bad. Very black and white. Have people nowadays never had a complicated relationship with someone who they love but who has also hurt them? Do they feel the need to label that person as all good or all bad to cope with that, rather than confront and explore the nuances of difficult relationships?
idk if moonkitti still does mini talking or will ever anymore but I was wondering about talking about GoldenFlower, TigerStars former mate. Like what even happened to her or whatever, i haven't heard of her for so long now lol.
This is exactly what I'm talking about-- me implying that curlfeather wasn't as bad as a parent as crowfeather (who was not there for his son) Has caused a bunch of people to flood into the comments to assume that i think curlfeather has done nothing wrong or that she's not a villain, despite me repeating over and over again in the video that this **isn't** me saying that Curlfeather did nothing wrong. I will not fight with you about Crowfeather, I will simply delete your comment-- His own book from his own perspective acknowledges that he wasn't in his son's life, and that is the canon I'm drawing from.
Moonkitti I do not read warrior cats and I haven’t for like 5 years. 100% of my warrior cats knowledge comes from enjoying the sound of your voice. (Also the human mind tends to be awful at nuance so I’m not surprised by the response).
Don't worry Moonkitti I completely agree with you here. Curlfeather reminds me a lot of Queen Coral. A character who obviously loves their children but does bad things at the same time.
@@sanicpowers6253
Crowfeather constantly belittled and ignored Breezepelt, even hitting him on one occasion, driving him to join forces with literal HELL. I think that’s worse, because at least Curlfeather cared about her daughter and tried her best to protect her.
cursed breezepelt trio strikes again
@@imaginarylivingbody7154Idk man my parents were pretty bad but I've never joined a death cult because I am an adult who makes my own choices lol
Honestly, Curlfeather being a loving mother who also manipulated Frostpaw is more interesting than her always being evil and hating her daughter. It's more realistic to how manipulative parents work. They do genuinely love their children and want them to succeed, but also use their love as a tool to get what they want from their child. It makes Frostpaw's struggles coming to terms with this more real. I hope the writers stick the landing with this and give Frostpaw and Curlfeather's relationship a solid conclusion where she can reflect on her mother and her mother's intentions.
it’s just so funny to me how the fandom has begged for more antagonistic/morally grey she-cats but the second we get one she’s demonized while splashtail gets the woobification treatment
fr LOLL
Yeah lol
how dare a warriors mom not be 100% nice and perfectly behaved but my baby splashtail is just a little guy who made some mistakes UWU hes pretty so its fine he's a murderer
Despite people asking for she cat villains and Bloodclan content, we get Fury and nobody talks about her.
@@Silvermoon32109 Yeah that’s true. In fact, I wonder how Bloodclan’s doing now after all these years
Fandom: we want more morally grey/evil she-cats
Erin Hunter: Okay, heres culfeather
Fandom: We hate curlfeather.
Curlfeather having complexity makes her so much more interesting as both a character and as a motivation for Frostpaw. It’s so incredibly difficult to reconcile the good memories you have with your parent with the pain/abuse/manipulation you suffered under their care as well. This is especially true if your guardian is already dead - there’s no way of ever gaining proper closure. It’s hard, it’s painful to unpack that trauma. Frostpaw having to reconcile these feelings would be far more interesting.
Exactly. Making her out to be 100% pure evil is a disservice to frostpaw just as much as it is to curlfeather
@@Moonkitti Aye, and to a degree I can understand why younger folks wouldn’t cotton onto that concept - as an adult, you begin to recognize the true fallibility of your parents, how badly they messed up, how they both positively and negatively impacted you growing up. I think there’s this idea that a parent can only be either Good or Bad, when in reality parenthood is largely comprised of both, even in the healthiest of familial relationships. It’s a lot easier to understand that dynamic as an adult as you’ve had time to process and unpack your upbringing. Curlfeather, to me, reads very much as someone who’s very power hungry but still fiercely loves her kids. She recognizes Frostpaw’s utility in achieving her ambitions and manipulates her accordingly, but nevertheless gives her life to save her because her children still mean more to her than power.
Frostpaw has a lot to unpack and if they truly dig into that, we could get a lot of really fun characterization and development. It will enrich both characters to lean into the idea that Curlfeather was complex and Frostpaw has to reconcile with that.
Warriors fans have a major issue with reading comprehension and not demonizing female characters for not being 100% perfect, but at the same time love to hate on female characters for being 'annoying' when they are 'perfect'... Dovewing is a pretty good example of this.
Being a women is warrior cats is hard 🐈
Dove isn't annoying because she's perfect. She's imperfect and that is unrelated to me thinking that she's annoying.
@@Juanfilipe766 It's not.
I think Curlfeather's motivation could be a dislike of how the general state of RiverClan.
In AVOS, RiverClan was conquered by Darktail. A good quarter of their clan were killed by him and his Kin, and when they were freed, Mistystar decided to isolate them. However, the isolation only harmed them, as shown by the fire. Later Mistystar took the side of the imposter, exiling her own healer, Mothwing, after years and years of service and trust between them built up by Mothwing's secret. She exiled Icewing and Harelight for fighting against RiverClan, even though they took the right side in the conflict. She even refused to attend the vigil for former warriors.
Curlfeather, all the while, watches this happen. She watches as her leader consistently makes the wrong choices, and refuses to own up to her mistakes. She sees her stubbornness, her refusal to change, refusal to listen. She knows something will have to change.
In ASC, Mistystar finally dies, partially due to her stubbornness. Curlfeather fears her sucessor, Reedwhisker, will be the same as his mother. So she decides to kill him, and take his place, to lead RiverClan into a new era - one defined by cooperation and forgiveness, unlike Mistystar's reign. Yes, what she was doing was immoral - but it was for the common good.
The vision Curlfeather saw never came to be. Left without any form of authority after the death of Curlfeather and a string of leaders, cooperation breaks down in RiverClan.
Sorry for writing basically fanfic in your comments lol
edit: I CALLED IT. ISH.
This would be a lot better than xenophobia I think
No this is perfect omg 😱
I really really really like this comment. Whether it's factual or not it's wonderful to get that much deeper insight of WHY Curlfeather made such decisions she did. It's entirely realistic given those main events and I'd KILL to see a super edition/side story on Curlfeather's thoughts and her mental state that drove her to do terrible things for her idea of a better clan.
love this. if you add the headcanon of reedwhisker being curlfeather's dad it gets even crazier
That's a really interesting take. I really admire the thought you put into Curlfeather's possible motives.
The way people treat Curlfeather compared to Splashtail is how people treat Skyler White compared to Walter
This
THIS IS MY FAVORITE COMMENT THANK YOU
THIS OMDS
The fandom doesn't like child abusers, that's an issue how?
@@BUGMEATT its how media thinks of murders better then child abusers, although they're both horrible. Like why can people be fans of murderers but not abusers? It's a weird double standard
SPOILERS FOR THE WIND EXCERPT:
Curlfeather's motive has been revealed, it's dislike of StarClan. I think this can work, especially if they bring up all the things that happened in AVoS to RiverClan. I'm glad it's not code changes
I find that incredibly interesting.
Curlfeather is such a layered villain and it kinda boggles my mind that everyone hates her so much, shes probably the most interesting shecat villain weve ever had
what i like about curlfeather's death is that she not only sacrificed herself, she sacrificed her goals and everything she worked for to save frostpaw. i'm assuming that since starclan is implied to have sent the dogs after curlfeather, it means that they couldn't reject her if she made it to the moonpool. which, to me, means that if curlfeather saved herself and frostpaw was killed by the dogs instead, curlfeather could've still become leader if she made it to the moonpool. so everything curlfeather wanted, everything she worked for, what she killed reedwhisker and possibly her own husband for, could have been her's if she let her daughter be killed. but she didn't let that happen, because despite everything, her daughter matters more to her than anything else, and her love for frostpaw outweighs her wanting to become leader. i just think that's very interesting and makes her more nuanced than just a typical "i will do anything to become leader mwahaha!" type villain
wasn’t the dogs sent by splashtail instead? the book explicitly show that splashtail was very willing to betray curlfeather if he felt the desire to due to curlfeather not respecting him enough.
@@yelin8086
The dogs were lured into the area by Splashtail, yes. In one of the books Windclan mentions finding prey bones-implying that the dogs were lured into the area. And in one of Splashtail’s POV intros he ends it by alluding to the idea that he was the one who lured them there.
I think Curlfeather genuinely loving Frostpaw makes her character significantly more interesting than if she didn't. Because many abusive parents *do* care about their children and cannot see much they are hurting them. Or alternatively, they justify the hurt they inflict on their kids as "for their own good." I just hope the Erins don't completely ruin her character by turning her into a pure evil moustache twirling villain.
Its such a tonal shift to have TBC be an arc about kitty afterlife and hell, then ASC doing a 180 and ignoring the immense control the afterlife has. And just makes Curlfeather's character look a little dumb for her willing to go to literal and very real hell just for a chance at power becuase she woke up one day and decided to be evil and ambitious.
Tigerstar knew he would go to hell for his crimes and still did evil stuff
I highly doubt it's as black and white as "she just wanted power" we don't know her intentions yet, we don't know why she did what she did. And the tone shift is interesting in my opinion, having two arcs back to back to back solely based around the afterlife would be bland and repetitive. They've already said all they need to say about starclan/dark forest. The living cats are more important. Starclan only exists because of the living cats
True that her motivation isnt known yet, but as moonkitti says it could go from something new to Berryheart 2. And I'm not asking for ASC to be TBC 2 but rather that these clans that witnessed GHOST POSSESION and the powers of hell to acknowledge this revelation. And not simply shrug off and say, eh nothing new.
@@Silvermoon32109 that's fair, they sorta brushed over the whole possession thing, I think that's also fault of the writers, they were more focused on code changes, and the dark forest plot was just a means of getting to that point
Agreed
I want Frostpaw to be conflicted about her feelings towards her mother and not immediately drop any feelings and decide she's just forever and always was evil. Curlfeather sacrificed herself to save Frostpaw from dogs, a death we know to be extremely terrifying and painful. I have to wonder if, in a way, Curlfeather chose to go to the dark forest, thinking she deserves it for putting her daughter in such danger
"well maybe people are harsher on curlfeather because bad moms are more personal" there are still people who deny that crowfeather abused his child. the books themselves in fact will go the extra step to absolve fathers of the abuse they do (the field guides pawning off the blame onto nightcloud for the longest period of time, tom getting redeemed by death, the authors talking about how tigerstar 1 loves his kids, sandgorse being redeemed by death, dotc spending the entirety of its books talking about how amazing skystar is as he abuses his child and the cats around him). it's such a clear bias that the writing team and the community will bend over backwards to try and provide nuance to every male character no matter how awful but the moment a more nuanced mother is introduced she's treated as satan incarnate.
Literally the book says that she loved her daughter, it's not the books.
It might be the opposite as bad father's are more common.
People WANT to believe that a father could turn out good, that a father will do the bare minimum and show up and still love his kids even while busy.
A mom however is always supposed to be there
yea this arguement is BS. abusive fathers, shitty friends, all of these should be personal. the villainization of morally grey mothers is just misogyny.
@catboyedgeworth2469 never said it wasn't mysogonistic, I litterally just stated that from a society stand point a bar minimum father works harder then a loveable mother
Fake prescriptions, eh? Now the five starred leaf on the Frostpaw figurine makes even more sense.
PFFFT-
😱💀💀💀💀
Holy shit its been awhile since I've seen you around -- I used to watch your custom showcases
AHAHAHAHAHA
I have no clue how you could actually read the books and think Curlfeather never cared about Frostpaw.
If you just read what other people say about the books, sure. But if you read the books you see that Curlfeather is never flippant about Frostpaw’s feelings or safety. Like the books even state, Curlfeather’s last act was making sure Frostpaw was safe and to give her a final warning. And while we don’t know if she was as attentive to Graypaw and Mistpaw, they don’t show any resentment towards her and seem to be grieving her in as much a way that a modern Warriors side character can.
She’s not a Rainflower or a Mapleshade, I can’t even say she’s a Zira from The Lion King 2 (who only showed affection to her son in his dying moments). You could call her somewhat similar to Bluestar, putting her children’s needs aside for a possibility at power while still loving them. Although Bluestar’s motives were 100% more noble.
100% agree!
How is Mapleshade comparable to Rainflower?
It makes frostpaw feel that way, and it’s very understandable, but the books make it clear curlfeather cared about frostpaw. It’s specified she did, riverstar says her last act was to save frostpaw, which shows she did love frostpaw enough to die for her. I’d think the scene alone would show that, but I guess not?
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 They were both bad mothers. And if you state that mapleshade wasnt, there was a BRIDGE across the river.
@@marigoldsstudio
If Mapleshade trying to escape ThunderClan territory as fast as possible after herself and her kittens were unjustly exiled makes her as bad as an abusive Rainflower, then what is Bluestar?
I really love Curlfeather. People so often act like people who love you can't hurt you, or that loving someone fixes that damage. Maybe it's silly, but having this refuted by warrior cats of all things means a lot to me. Curlfeather loved Frostpaw and her siblings so, so much, but she still hurt them. I dunno, it just feels like a big deal that such an unnuanced series would write something like this
On the subject of interesting AUs... my favorite idea is Rusty's kittypet father being Pine instead of Jake. I mean imagine Tigerstar being his half-brother. Imagine all the members of the clan that were around during Pinestar's rule immediately recognizing Pinestar's spitting image in Rusty. Imagine the hush-hush gossip that Firepaw would only hear snippets of and not really understand. Imagine Tigerstar hating Firepaw multiple times over. Imagine the twist reveal! IT COULD'VE BEEN SO GOOD
If people think Ashfur did nothing wrong, then I’m not surprised why Curlfeather is demonized and Splashtail is not.
I haven’t watched the video yet, but what makes Curlfeather so COMPELLING and tragic and nuanced to me is that there is such a realistic divide between her selfishness, ambition, and abject cruelty, and her genuine tenderness and deep love for Frostpaw. It’s made her one of the best villains in Warriors history, and certainly the best female one (though there are slim pickings), because it’s so accurate to how “bad” people really are: there is almost always a stark contrast between their public self and their private self. She killed for her ambition, true; she chose to die before her ambition could ever be realised to save her daughter’s life, also true. Is that not spectacular? She used Frostpaw, but she chose to die for her when it would have been so easy to let her die instead and go fulfil her ambition. What a brilliant character. The fact they still had her truly, selflessly love Frostpaw - an utterly inarguable fact - at her own expense is fantastic.
I hate how people beg for female antagonist but when we get one she’s demonized. It honestly pisses me off
Im so shocked that the fandom perception of her is negative; she has been one of the most interesting characters in a long time for me! Her dying before we get to know what she has done, what she knew and what she was even up to at all has been so intiguing. More than Splashtail IMO too, he was more. cartoonishly evil to me? While Curlfeather has been so unreadable and such a mystery, and i love that
I honestly really like curl feather as a direct comparison to berry heart this arc, like they're obvs gunna both fail but seeing berry openly manipulate her kin and be loud and proud of her views(and kicking out ts 2nd) where we've got a whole exact situation just in quiet instead
Curlfeather's slaw recipe:
1/2 Daikon Radish
1/4 Red Cabbage
Some carrots I think
I think also some white cabbage
Shred all
Add a bit of maple syrup, sesame oil, toasted sesame seeds
That's it
SYRUP?!
@@Moonkitti Just a little bit! It adds a sweet flavor
Make sure you also mix a drop of mapleshades maple syrup with the maple syrup to get that useless bit of dark forest that curl feather had to deal with for somewhat reason!
I sincerely hope that they don’t turn Curlfeather into a purely bad character or reverse on her love for her kits. Reading Frostpaw’s realization that her mother was involved hit me hard; her reactions were exactly the same as what I went through when my best friend in middle school moved away and stopped talking to me. With that time apart even as I tried to keep in touch she eventually stopped reaching out and I questioned whether she ever cared about me just like Frostpaw and her mom. It wasn’t until years later when I got the chance to meet her again that I told my mom how I felt and she told me that she knew it broke my friend’s heart too, and that she cared about me just as much as I did her.
The books have the chance to write a powerful message about how distance can dilute your perception of someone and how easy it can be to villainize someone for hurting you when that may never have been their goal. Some people like Berryheart don’t care as much whether they hurt you if it gets them what they want, but that isn’t everyone. Curlfeather’s a fantastic opportunity for a character who’s right in some ways (being a loving mother) and wrong in others (organizing the takeover), and that ambiguity as it currently stands is a refreshing change.
Unrelated second note, Frostpaw’s realization really feels like the fire scene of this arc and I wonder if it was planned before the murder mystery like what happened in POT
I was hoping warrior cats wouldn't make her evil purely because I knew the fandom would do this.
I stopped reading Warriors long ago, but the idea of a sweet mother pulling the strings behind the scene is really interesting.
It's far more interesting if Curlfeather loves Frostpaw, but lets her own ambitions cloud her judgement. The books and fandom are definitely biased when it comes to mothers vs fathers and hold them to vastly different standards
Honestly the fact that Rainflower got to go to starclan and not Curlfeather is confusing people need to understand that morally gray cats exist my point is that they should both should not have gone to the dark forest or starclan there needs to be an In between
Curlfeather planned and initiated murder?? While I agree Rainflower should be in the Dark Forest for being inherently cold and evil, using Curlfeather's situation as leverage to why Rainflower should also be in cat hell isn't very logical.
That’s not what I’m saying I’m saying that There needs to be something In between the dark forest And star clan
@@hazelfang3570 yeah, I agree. rainflower is a horrible parent but as hard as it is to take, curlfeather was a part of a murder, so her crimes are worse.
@@rabbitdosethings I've always felt this way as well! There's a lot of cats who I feel should be put in an inbetween rather than go to StarClan or The Dark Forest.
What about Juniperclaw? He poisoned Skyclan and threatened to wipe them out “for the good of his clan”
And in his last moments, he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save a Skyclan queen ( Violetshine ) in the flood, but still got sent to the dark forest, maybe it’s because he just wanted to please Tigerstar by saying “Tell Tigerstar I am sorry”
But it depends on his intentions, because his clan forgives him after he died and Tigerstar hoped he was in Starclan, even though he was wrong.
I think curlfeather hits a lot closer to home than more villainous cats, a sort of umbridge voldemort situation. A bunch of people taking that betrayal personally.
I really like Curlfeather because of this complexity and I really would want to see what her intentions were. It also makes another problem for Frostpaw but this one isn't a problem easily solved.
Riverstar sitting down frostpaw to just flatout tell her that her mother is in hell is hilarious
Curlfeather? Crowfeather
Yanny? Laurel
Brainstorm? Green needle
Hotel? Trivago
My theory is that Curlfeather managed to contact frostpaw from the darkforest. I think she told frostpaw to pick the less obvious choice becuase she didn’t want splashtail to become leader. I know this is silly but, think about it. Splashtail was helping her execute a plan so SHE could be leader. Part of it failed and now he could supposedly be wanting to become leader. And because he is a respected strong warrior, he could be chosen as an “obvious” choice. Curlfeather doesn’t want him to be chosen because of simply jealously or resentment. I’m not sure though. in the second point illustrated during 15:32, it says that it would be strange for Curlfeather not to be upfront. But she could possibly feel guilt about what she did to frostpaw (manipulating/using her) but still not want Splashtail to become leader. There forth she wouldn’t be able to say “don’t chose splashtail” without explaining a reason behind it. Thereforth saying “choose someone not obvious” being a reasonable option.
I was listening to this video while doing chores (Thus not paying attention to the note at the beginning of the difference between “curl” and “crow” ) and I kept hearing “Crowfeather.” I thought warriors had made Crowfeather into a villain trying to take over RiverClan and I completely accepted it 😂
Even if Curl`s characther reminds readers about their narcissist(?) mom/female guardians i REALLY like me a nuanced she-cat in warrior cats! i mean - rainflower straight up just hates her child and that`s all, but curlfeather is like... cunning and ambitious? and yeah - she uses her daugther but she still cares for her, so she is not just a simple AO3 evil mom, but a bit more 2-dimensional
hey, I'd really recommend not using the word "narcissistic" here! NPD is a very real, serious mental illness, and by demonizing it and using it as a negative adjective, it's furthering the stigma! self-centered or anything similar is a much better choice of wording
please stop throwing around narcissist to describe every imperfect parent its ableist and weird
see the thing is, I DO like her for being a complex villain, but I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing her as just. a bad person. because a lot of people who had to deal with parents who did even LESS than curlfeather are still extremely hurt by such things. like- she literally pretended that Frostpaw had predicted her fathers death. she lied about reedwhisker's death. and I don't think caring about someone is always a good thing... you can care about them and you can "love" them for only your own self interests. like seeing your children as just an extension of yourself rather than their own people. and the whole reason she HAD kittens might even be becuase she wanted to use them for her plans. idk. if i were frostpaw i wouldn't forgive her.
“narcissistic mom” OMG stop pathologizing abuse.
I think Rainflower has some nuance too. She's a disgusting person but the way she treats her son isn't because she randomly hates him. She's a great character, I like being angry at her.
I've kinda loved the idea more of Curlfeather getting lost in her ambition and forgetting what matters most to her: her children. She doesn't fully realize what she's done to Frostpaw (assuming her actions are only white lies to her kitten, not traumatizing) until in her last moments when she snaps out of it and gets hit by a trcuk of realization of what shes been doing to Frostpaw. or maybe even just immediately knowing leadership would never be worth more than frostpaw.
now, her keeping up with the lie in starclan is pretty damning. but what if thats another attempt at saving her? "dont trust anyone" followed up by her convincing frostpaw to choose a leader could very well be her trying to protect frostpaw from splashtail murdering her for turning on him. maybe she realized starclan might not give splashtail his 9 lives and figured it would work out? shes just such an interesting cat to think about
Sorry one final comment: i think of the medicine position as not exactly being a good thing for Frostpaw to have been forced into. The medicine cats are always under an extreme amount of pressure and tend to witness more death and difficult decisions than any normal warrior will ever face. They learn terrible prophecies about their future and sometimes there's nothing they can do about it but wait for someone (or more) to die. It puts them at serious risk of becoming ill themselves (Cloudberry or whoever goose's mentor was) It's not something that should be decided for you by any average clan cat. It also could leave Frostpaw defenseless should she ever be attacked and i dont remember mothwing ever teaching frostpaw how to fight. (spottedleaf died because of this i believe?)
While her mother's death and the leader issue was putting frostpaw under obvious stress, i think her position could have added to that and led to her eventual breakdown when asked to return to the moonstone. everyone was looking to frostpaw for a prophecy and every cat knew, even back when frost was a kit, that mothwing had no connection to starclan. frostpaw is a shell of herself for so much of the story because of how terrified and stressed she is while being a medicine cat.
of course, when curlfeather decided on the position for frost, things were better. Only reedwhisker was going to die and the clan was going well. she couldn't have predicted misty's death nor frostpaw's floundering when it came to deciding on a leader. so she meant well... but it all went terribly and frostpaw was struggling under the weight of it. I've always thought that there's always been more of a reason so few cats ask to be a medicine cat: its not just because being a warrior is more appealing, its because being a medicine cat is on the level of a deputy. it's not easy at all
I get where you were going with the piano lessons thing, but there's not a lot of consequences to going to just going to some additional classes. Going into training to be a religious doctor, on the other hand... Can really mess someone up if they arent mentally ready for it.
sorry for typos my computer is having that youtube issue with chrome where it lags terribly
@@snowowo9685there was no lie in starclan. This wasn't Curlfeather. This wasn't a real vision, just a dream Frostpaw thought to be a vision.
@@Hadeshythat hasn’t been stated in canon it’s moonkitti’s theory. We don’t know yet
@@Huijiijjjjjjjihh No. It gas been stated in canon. Frostpaw said all of her dreams were nothing but dreams and when she had real starclan visions she said that it was different from her prior visions.
I actually really like the build up and finding out curlfeather is the worst i feel so bad for frostpaw.
It threw me for a loop bc I didn’t see how she was manipulating Frostpaw before the reveal but after the twist, her manipulation became so painful obvious yet you can still see she cared about her daughter and wanted to protect her in her own twisted way. She sacrificed herself to save her daughter when she could have easily left her behind to get her nine lives.
The moment Splashtail started evily licking his paw to draw it slowly over his ear was when I lost interest in him as a villain lol. He just seems so simple compared to Curlfeather!
I LOVE morally complex characters and I LOVE Curlfeather for this reason, I hope we get to understand her a little more in the remaining books for this arc. I really like how every POV in this arc has a complex and strained relationship with their mother, it's an interesting thru line and I wonder how it will resolve.
I like how within 5 minutes of watching this I came to the conclusion of "oh this is just sexism on the fandom's part then"
Its so wierd to me that people hate on Curl but love Splash. I mean I'm not shocked but its still wierd because I'm the opposite
I found Curl to be interesting but obviously she loves her children, she died making sure Frost was safe.
Splashtail on the other hand literally is so much more uncomfortable to me because he doesn't care what happens to frost. He just wants the power.
Like y'all remember him literally playing along with Frost,a APPRENTICE STILL, liking him why still trying to convince her to consider things through.
He literally told her "Oh we'd have to wait until you're a warrior anyway so you have time to think!"
Like i remember having to stop when reading that, because even if he doesn't like her that way THAT'S SO GROOMY.
He'll do anything to get what he wants, and why he's an interesting villain i honestly can't see myself caring if his reasons are more then just ambition
Why Curl I'm completely invested in.
I actually think it be interesting if its less xenophobia and more that she doesn't trust Misty and Reed to lead anymore after everything they seen in recent books.
Being held captive by The Kin
Mistystar's actions in broken code.
I could see her maybe thinking if something dangerous sets in again that they would fail to protect the clan like before. Even Reedwhisker who maybe never questions Misty because, hey that's his mom, she might think will lead just like her
Just imagining she has similar reasons for her motivations as Berry, the suffering of her clan and worry for her kits, but its not assuming everyone outside riverclan will be bad. Maybe thinking that if one IS bad again that it wouldn't be handled like it should.
Just thoughts ^^
Some people love Splash ???
The fandom has a strange way of demonizing female characters while defending the male ones with their lives…
And before y’all say anything, yes I am aware that Mapleshade is one of those characters that is defended heavily by the fandom but are there really any other female characters that get her treatment…?
So I didn’t watch like, the next 10 sec of the video and MoonKitti does mention Mapleshade, huh!
Mapleshade is constantly lambasted by the fandom, with people arguing that she was ontologically evil and was a horrible person from the very beginning. People get angry when people sympathize with Mapleshade lately. People tend to defend Appledusk, whose only major character trait is that he’s a cheater.
You should see the amount of Brambleshart defenders on the Warriors subreddit. Most of them just think 'Squirrelflight is annoying/she was mean to him/he has twauma: (('
Her too, goddam??
possibly frecklewish? alot of people like her now and are fine with her and will defend her. but with mapleshade the fandom seems more mixed on her like some people think shes bad from the start and some think she was always good but went down a dark path. people kinda tend to defend squirrelflight alot too which is understandable.
@@jamforbreakfast Frecklewish was hated by the earlier fandom, but as more videos like this one come out the fandom perception shifts and characters like her end up garnering more sympathy.
Man i want a novella on Curlfeather so badly. I also really want one on Snowtuft tho so a new novella pack would just be nice in general.
Has anyone else noticed that Curlfeather manipulating children to do her dirty work is a pattern? She quote ‘approached Splashtail while he was an apprentice’. Granted Splashtail did turn on her but not until after Reedwhisker was already dead. I do believe Curlfeather loves Frostpaw. But you can manipulate and use people who you love.
I just thought that she manipulated both of these cats while they were young is a very interesting detail.
I've noticed ppl don't really like when a female character isn't simple? Even outside of warriors, it kind of becomes a default fandom reaction
Exactly, female characters that are morally grey or just evil are hated on and demonized
But characters that are basically the same yet male are lived and praised with some calling them "my baby"
Or trying to justify their actions fr
People want morally gray, complex, female characters but when they get them they're mad as shit and woobify their male sidekicks
If Frostpaw had a Dark Forest dream or something with Curlfeather explaining her intentions and why she did what she did, and that she still loved her, it’d be a nice way to end her story in my opinion. Sure it’s been done before, but having it be done for a reason other than to use the living cat or kin is definitely new. This could be a hot take, but Curlfeather bringing her to cat hell and then telling her that she loves her during a hard time would be a nice, kind of wholesome way to tie up some loose ends.
It always confuses me when people are like "I'm fine with murder but I draw the line at bad parenting 😡"
Like??? A villain that murders is absolutely way worse than one that manipulates their children from a moral standpoint lol
Not to mention a character who murders people is also bound to be a bad parent loooool
the thing is, more people suffer from "bad parenting" than "being murdered" so i feel its due to it being relatable than anything. its in nearly all fandoms: abusive family, manipulators, bullies....they're def gonna get more vitriol thrown at them than a homicidal manics lol
AU where mapleshade is a protector of half-clan kits
yas pls
Speaking on Curlfeather's potential motivations, I also hope they don't take the wa wa code change bad route, particularly because there is So much more that could be drawn upon in river clan specifically. Despite their general lack of presence in the entire franchise, a lot still has been happening with them over the past few series, and it'd be so much more interesting if they actually filled in some of those gaps of how members of riverclan actually felt during all of that. It could even allow for reason to hold smth against reedwhisker without needing to retcon anything in, as innaction itself could serve as motivation if the core conflict is with how mistystar handled the past few arcs. Now I'm not expecting this since splashtail is a young chap and I'm guessing they're going to go for a motive that more directly involves him, but it would still be so interesting if he Was manipulated into being her little lackey from childhood, and it'd add some interesting parallels between him and frostpaw along with making him much more interesting than if he was just ambitious or smth.
I feel bad for frostpaw 😭 it feels like sometimes riverclan cats have a lot of tramua
I think that goes for most warrior cats characters lol
8:09
Frostpaw: I'm scared, Mom!
Curlfeather: do you trust me?
Frostpaw: Yes!
Curlfeather: Then come on!
Curlfeather: ... Rule Number One, never trust anybody.
Curl feather is stinky, but Splashtail is stinker
Right? At least Curl still loved Frostpaw, even if she was manipulative. Splashtail is just an ass
I accidentally read the title as Gurlfeather and she is Gurlfeather the girl boss from now on
I think that Blackstar and Curlfeather are quite similar morally wise, they both did some horrendous things that generally would be considered un redeemable. Though, Blackstar seems to regret killing Stonefur and Curlfeather has shown almost 0 remorse so far but I would love to see her feel some sort of sorry directly in the books so it would be without the feeling of it being a guessing game. They are both inherently bad cats, though, they both seem to have a sense of right and wrong and know that they chose the wrong one, even if one doesn’t seem to feel bad, they both get better as the series goes on. Anyway, I’d love to see how Curlfeather develops.
If Curlfeather questions Starclan's choices and therefore Starclan sent her to hell--that's really /interesting/. Considering how morally awful Starclan often is, wouldnt it be so interesting if Curlfeather doesnt like Starclan because she’s personally experienced how their faults and manipulations effect cats? I know they'll never do it, but I'd love a Starclan villian twist.
I like to think that Curlfeather is just power hungry, and Frostpaw is just the perfect vessel.
Power over her kit. Ensuring and securing power for her kit. Using her kit to get power for herself - a vision to make her leader.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if she was initially appeasing Splashtail and Duskfur (with the offer of deputy positions) to get that help to secure her power.
I personally find that fun. Curlfeather is unique: sure, fake signs and corrupt cat groups have been done before.
BUT, manipulating/using one's kit as a pawn in all this? Secret meetings between clans? Murdering both cats of power? Making her kit believe she was a med cat in order to continue using her?
Curlfeather snaked her and her followers into a possible position of power, which is impressive in itself.
AGREED !! I think she sees Frostpaw as sort of, a show of her power, of her success. I think she "loves" her because having kits in her mind makes her more successful than those who haven't. And on top of it being a sign of her power, she can use Frostpaw to further her plans. It's very interesting.
I also like the idea that while she initially meant to have kittens FOR the purpose of her plans, she did start caring about them like a mother would after having them but, she still continued to go through with the plans showing she did not prioritize being a good mother, perhaps until her very last moment, but the damage had already been done, and now she has no way of fixing it.
I still think curlfeather loved frostpaw and her siblings, it just happened for frostpaw to be useful in her plans. Curlfeather could easily have thrown frostpaw off the tree and climbed it herself but didn’t and gave a warning for her, so basically setting frostpaw on the track that someone is a traitor, in simple words, destroying her plan and everything she did to work for it. I really do doubt that she never loved frostpaw as her actions say otherwise. (Not saying she’s a perfect mother but not like a certain Tom with feather in his name)
She definitely loves frostpaw, I have no doubt she does. Frostpaw may feel that way, and it’s understandable, but Curlfeather’s actions say otherwise. Curlfeather knows how to use characters to her advantage, is all. That doesn’t mean she feels nothing for them. She had the chance to get everything she wanted, but instead she chose to die for frostpaw, to sacrifice your life for someone is a clear show of immense love.
Don't get me wrong, I believe she loved frostpaw and her children.
That was the only (or well, only main thing) she'd sacrifice for that power.
I do believe her sacrifice was a sacrifice.
The "dont trust any cat" thing was probably because she understood Splashtail and/or Duskfur would possibly target her next, so I believe that was for her protection.
But otherwise, yes, she's power hungry and still manipulated frostpaw for mosty her own gain. She loved her AND used her.
We need more complex villain or anti hero Shecats. Maybe make one of them a protagonist, the closes we got was Mapleshade but I mean in a book series.
I think it might be a microcosm of the Villain Abstraction problem? Where villainous characters or characters who make morally wrong decisions have can attitudes about them decided largely on how close to home their actions feel. People like splashtail and not curlfeather because a pretty awful mother is a much more common and personal problem than murder.
Nobody reacts like this to Tigerstar doing the same but worse.
Fan attitudes not can attitudes
@@Moonkitti true but he is a father, and idk about other people but. I never grew up with a father.
True… though Tigerstar is both a gen 1 character (assuming you mean TS 1st) and did have a level distance from the reader with a lot of his action (murder, bone piles, ghost magic, etc). there’s always misogyny though ig, or fandom weirdness that just kinda occurs sometimes.
I feel like some of this fandom reaction comes from the fact that manipulative moms are more "real" than, like, murderers. Murderers are so distant from most people's lives that they're only encountered in stories. A more mundane "bad guy" - like a crummy parent - is much more common and much more personal to a lot of people. It's like how (sorry for invoking Harry Potter lol) people enjoy genocidal warlock Voldemort but loathe abusive teacher Umbridge.
To be clear, I totally agree with Moonkitti lol. I just think this could partially explain why people really don't like Curlfeather lol
I mostly think Curlfeather is a bad mom because she must have known that she was putting Frostpaw into a potentially dangerous position (which ended up being true) and also the extreme pressure and mental stress she knowingly inflicted on her for a prolonged time. She's no Rainflower or Mapleshade, but I still think she's a terrible parent.
Even if Frostpaw hadn’t been in any danger whatsoever, the fact she pressured her kit into a life she didn’t want is enough to say she’s a bad mother. I think a much fairer comparison (mom wise) would be Leafpool.
Everyone else: "Oh, Curlfeather is pure evil!"
Me: "Wait...did they just SPAY the main character in a children's book?! Dang, that's ballsy!"
Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if she gets more hate cause she's a lil too close to home.
Realizing your moms love language is manipulation is never fun!
I actually really appreaciate this point of view!
This arc is the embodiment of mommy issues
As a Warrior Cat RPer who plays a mildly-atagonistic character (He yelled at his pregnant friend for lying to him and accidentally hurt her friend - but feels incredible remorse over his actions and is in cat therapy/quasi-exile), seeing the fandom's black and white thinking is...scary. Like man, haha, what the fuck?
Anyway, I might read this new arc just for Curlfeather. The idea of a mother who cares for her child - while also being ambitious, is a very compelling notion to me. The fact that she had these ideas in mind to secure her clan, to secure her daughter a good future - and ultimately caring for Frostpaw's well-being is fascinating; I love flawed mothers like Palebird, Mapleshade (Listen, I think she loved her children - but she genuinely did not even consider that they might *not* be happy with the notion of being loyal to both River or Thunder) and of course, Curlfeather!
curlfeather is suuuch a refreshingly interesting character, i love her sm and this whole arc, really, has just been such a good change of pace. the twist villains are all so good, etc etc. i dont understand how anyone can compare her to crooked's mother or crowfeather literally at all. she genuinely loves her kits, she's just a very,,, morally grey character. a bit more bad leaning, but the traits about her that are good is what makes her so interesting, and its annoying that people keep ignoring that
The Warriors Fandom: But I don't like complex female antagonists!
Erin Hunter: Then why did you ask for it?!
you have to keep in mind that a huge majority of the warrior cats fandom are kids or preteens. it’s really hard for a 10-12 year old to understand a complex character.
I also think it’s really funny that Mapleshade is treated as a great mom who cares so much about her babies, when in reality she is an idiotic, irresponsible mom who doesn’t know what danger is; but yeah the mom who did her best to make sure he kits where safe (which might have actually been a good contributor to her motives) is the bad mom while Mapleshade was a totally normal and great mom.
Mapleshade wouldn't have put her kits in the tree and sacrificed herself.
She would've fight the dog thinking Starclan would help her and all of them would be dead
Mapleshade DID love and care for her kittens.
She made a bad decision in how she crossed the river, causing them to die.
But she clearly cared for them.
@@teabur4043 no one is saying she didnt care FOR them, but she didn't take care OF them.
@@soldiaz7261 she did her best, what did you expect her to do when she was kicked out of her clan during a storm, attacked, and her AND her kits lives being threatened if they didn't leave before sunrise (which was very close). Her best choice at the time was the river
@@teabur4043 i'd argue that her crossing the river was really her only choice
Isn’t it sort of implied she sort of resents Starclan because of the death of her mate? I have a feeling she isn’t just Berryheart 2.0.
With Arc 9 coming. It honestly looks like we are heading into a two-part arc like POT and OOTS.
I love how I’m 5 mins into the video and there’s already a Mapleshade Curlfeather swap AU
If I had to guess, Warriors just wanted to add more villain and antagonist she-cat with 95% of them being toms, and that extended to all the mommy problems.
Also, I just like the idea of a character being a good mother while also happening to be evil. You know, nice is different than good and all.
Honestly, the millisecond I saw SplashTail I was like "Hmmm. Dat boi is gonna commit a murder using a chip bag". Turns out I was right. CurlFeather, on the other hand, was really cool. I kinda thought. " Ooooo look at this bean who never did anything wrong. Be cool if she committed a murder."
Your insight is always really valuable and enlightening. I love watching these kinds of videos because you have a lot of great thoughts that makes me (and hopefully others too) think! I'm not as into the books nowadays, more involved in the fandom aspects of Warriors, but even so a lot of the points you bring up are interesting from an author perspective too. Thanks for making these videos despite the confusion and negativity that can show up in the comments!
12:22 my interpretation of this section is sort of like Frostpaw coming to terms with how complicated her mother is rather than refrencing a literal/direct 'confession' or apology. Like acknowledging that curlfeather was a flawed person and her earnest expression of the philosophy 'trust no cat' was something that actually revealed a truth about herself and her own worldview. Because she was untrustworthy, she was unable to trust others. It reminds me of how parents often project their own problems onto others/their children and end up giving strange advice you only understand as an adult when you see them more as a fully formed person than just 'mom' or 'dad'. Probably the reason for so many strong reactions on this nuanced analysis is that curlfeather's character is more realistic and thus inspires a closer / more emotional reaction from readers than just a spilling blood and guts while cackling sort of villain.
Curlfeather did something?? She was one of my favorite picks from scanning the allegiances for interesting names. Along with Grasspelt (who never meaningfully showed up) and Beetlewhisker (who joined the dark forest as a living army cat I believe). All from Riverclan for some reason idk why i only remember those guys
I really like how abruptly the video ended (im being fr i think more rant videos should be comfortable w/o a big takeaway or farewell)
Oh my gosh, what if part of the reason why Curlfeather doesn't really like Starclan is because of the lack of redemption for the Dark Forest cats??
guys wake up moonkitti video just dropped
Hey moonkitti, completely unrelated but….
When you did the Mini-talking: Reedwhisker video *OVER A YEAR AGO* you mentioned you wanted to make a video about when in the Broken Code the cats tried breaking the ice of the moonpool. (You said u wanted to call it Frozen 2 xD). Is this coming anytime soon 🧐
sometimes I forget that i never made Frozen 2. Maybe I should fix that
Honestly the mom antagonist thing imo was the theme of this arc bejng heavily female focused. 2/3rd of the mcs are girls, all their moms are prominent in the story.
Most of berryhearts group is shecats.
The only male antagonistic force until the 4th book is tigerstar while we have a fewobv she cat antags. I think it was book 2 or 3 where i thought "wow theres like, majority female presence in most of the story" or something like that.
Would be neat to have some that arent moms tho i do agree
YES! This was the top of my feed, and now I have a brand new eating time video content, thank you Moon for entertaining my lunch time 😎👍
Can you talk about tallstar? I love him alot I love how we learn new things about wc. other than I THINK crookedstars, yellowfangs and MAYBE others his is one of book where you learn something you didn’t know about the character. He’s really cool and I like how stupid his name sounds compared to the stereotypical arc 1 names. (Sorry for my poor grammar)
i have such a weird feeling either Frostpaw is going to play into the leadership role(i just have the stupid ass feeling something is gonna put her in the forefront of that deal even harder as if shes being groomed to become leader instead of choosing the right leader)
Yes, I just read the new book, now I don't spoil myself :D
OKAY BUT NOW I WANT TO WRITE A MAPLESHADE/CURLFEATHER SWAP AU
I think most of warrior cats has motherhood a central plot or theme in the books except for a new prophecy but even then sashas children are pretty important
Personally, i feel frostpaw taking curlfeathers warning of "trust no cat" as a confesion is un subconsciously trying to make sense of her mother's betrayal. 12:21
I haven't been in the warrior cats Fandom or watched you for nearly 4 years so it's crazy to see the warriors Fandom isn't Dead lol but yeah I watched you in middle-highschool and now im going to college which is insane to me. Keep up the good work moonkitti :D
watch people in the comments scream at moonkitti for daring to say "curlfeather is perfect!!"
curlfeather isn't a good cat. but not really downright irredeemable evil. i don't doubt she loves her children. maybe if she lived through the dogs she'd have a chance to redeem herswlf to a degree. hard to say now.
Fandoms when complex female character:
Yeah... 😓
I'm really starting to see a Pattern in American media about how moms are THE WORST and traumatise their children always...! Every single protagonist has mommy issues. To the point that they take myths with extremely good mothers (see Demeter with Persephone and Thetis with Achilles) and turn them into the worst moms in existence. Like, what is going on over there, y'all good?
Just making moms evil would be one thing, but I'm seeing this trend come with an even more worrying twin.
The fathers, if present, are absolved of their involvement. They are portrayed as victims of the evil mom's abuse too, but never seem to be forced to take accountability by the narrative for letting their wife abuse their children. Even if they were abused too, they still have a responsibility to protect their children, and not doing so makes them an enabler. But recent media like Stolas + Stella from Helluva Boss and Alador + Odelia from Owl House treat the mother as a spawn of Satan but treat the father as an innocent bean who never did anything wrong instead of someone who's in a bad situation but still failed to protect their child.
It's never the mother was the worst and the father wasn't as bad but still enabled her and is also somewhat to blame. Its the female parent is literally hitler and the male parent never did a single bad thing in his life and is just as much a victim as the child.
@@yeayeayeah933 I think the Owl House did all right. Amity refusing a hug and instead shaking his hand speaks volumes to me. They might've had more time to delve into it if it weren't for the season 3 cancellation, but I definitely see intentions of "he was abused, but was still complicit."
Hearing your talk about no black and white people makes me think a lot about the My Pride series. There's a lot of morally gray characters in that series that people feel about in a similar way to Curlfeather.
Hey moon! Idk if you might see this but I’ll really like to see a Mini-Talk of Snowfur. Snowfur who was bluestars sister and thistleclaw mate. I’ll think to see what else about her is interesting and she’s kinda a forgotten character.
the current level of media literacy is.. bad. Painful bad. Very black and white. Have people nowadays never had a complicated relationship with someone who they love but who has also hurt them? Do they feel the need to label that person as all good or all bad to cope with that, rather than confront and explore the nuances of difficult relationships?
Curlfeayher kind of reminds me of Mother Gothel from Tangled
idk if moonkitti still does mini talking or will ever anymore but I was wondering about talking about GoldenFlower, TigerStars former mate. Like what even happened to her or whatever, i haven't heard of her for so long now lol.
4:52 “ I guess star clan wants me to kill bloomheart to prove myself”😂😂😂😂😂😂 😂😂😂😂😂✨mapleshade logic✨😂😂😂😂😂😂