It’s about as retconned as Silverstream suddenly not being okay with Graystripe being with Millie despite encouraging the relationship and knowing they’d been together much longer than she had
The biggest problem I have with Firestar "choosing Spottedleaf in Starclan" is the implication that he'd choose a highschool crush over his wife that he'd been with for like, literally 3/4 of his life! No one would do that, let alone angelic, can do no wrong even if he tries, goodboi Firestar!
Idk man alot of people look very fondly upon their old crushed because nostalgia. If given the choice BY GOD with them both right Infront of you I feel 70% of marriages would crumble Lol
@@bingdinggold1877 that's a very depressing way of seeing the world. Not sure what people you are around with in real life but I don't know a single person who would make that choice, it's just stupid
i always thought firepaw's feelings for her were a representation of a common experience teenagers have where they have a crush on their teachers for a short period of time which is why the feelings being mutual is very creepy to me--
AGREED i felt the exact same way. an apprentice having a crush on a warrior/med cat is understandable but the older one returning those feelings? creepy
@@clawcakes2 exactly. if the authors REALLY wanted to do a forbidden romance spotted could've been a med cat apprentice and fire a warrior apprentice. that way the ages aren't weird. sigh
thank you!!!! the adult being female does not make it any less creepy, especially since upon meeting firepaw was a young apprentice and spottedleaf had been a med cat for quite a bit. him having a crush on her is fine, but imagine a 30-year-old interested in a relationship with a 15-year-old who has a crush on her. its creepy, and also quite unsettling considering the events of spottedleaf's heart, which is really not such a different situation, is it?
My personal headcanon is Firepaw was smelling catmint on her and just attributed it to her specifically at the time bc he was a teenager who had a crush on her and had never been near any herbs prior to joining ThunderClan
I alwyas hated that. It just makes everything so messed up. In my AU I would make Firepaw have crush on her but then he grews out of it, and when they are both dead and in Starclan she teases him constantly that he had a crush on her when she was young and he's just so embarrassed by it.
why can't this be canon pleaseeeeeee imagine even Sandstorm would tease him about it lol, Sandstorm in a joking manner: "Do I smell as good as her?" Firestar: "Please stop" Sandstorm: "Hey Spottedleaf, how do you smell so good?" Spottedleaf: "Well actually it was a mixture of herbs I liked to rub into my fur and-" _Spottedleaf and Sandstorm basically going on a tangent about cat perfume while Firestar dies of embarrassment in the background as his thing for good-smelling she-cats is exposed to everyone_
Theory: she always disappears when he thinks about how nice she smells when she comes to him in dreams is because she's extremely uncomfortable with the idea of him having a crush on her.
Also Spottedleafs smell is most likely just the herbs (thought leafpaw mentions she smells good too despote being a med apprentice around herbs all day)
@@blueberryf1nch969 (this is a very old comment but i like coming back to moonkitti's videos) but i imagine spottedleaf being the kind of cat who'd put flowers on her pelt or smth (like how on wcue on roblox, you can put nature accessories on your morph)
I just realized that Spottedleaf in Into the Wild fulfills the "women in refrigerators" trope (a female character that is only there to suffer or die so that the male hero can have a tragic backstory/motivation to take action). I never liked Spottedleaf but this realization kinda infuriates me since it's another example of how poorly female characters are treated in Warriors.
That "trope" seems really specific. It happens all the time with people of all gender, it doesn't need to be someone the protag is in love with either. Death is a terrible thing, of course someone you love is gonna hurt even more. I agree with your last statement though.
@@HollowKnightReference It's more commonly known as fridging and it is a trope that can happen to both men, women and pets but it's name after the most egregious fridging of a character. There was a time in comic books were it was so common people made a website that listed every female character this similar situation happened to. I believe they even included instances of it happening to pets and male character but the females far outweighed other characters. There is a difference between fridging and character death through, Luke sky walkers aunt and uncle were fridged but Uncle ben from spider man was not and has rarely ever been. (though unfortunately aunt May repeatedly got poor treatment of being fridged in quite a few comics.) Barbara Gordon got fridged in the killing joke without even having to die.
@@HollowKnightReference the issue is that we have a cultural build up of female (usually love interest) characters being used as a plot device to further the narrative of male characters. The issue is that it is seen as an acceptable thing to do carelessly because we are so accustomed to it. The term fridging comes from an old Green Lantern comic where the villain kills Kyle's girlfriend and literally stuffs her into a refrigerator for Kyle to find. Kyle is the only character who's reaction is made important in the narrative, reducing Alexandra's character to just an accessory to Kyle
I always took her death as shocking because they established the medicine cat role was non combatant in nature and the fact she was deliberately taken out ment more.
To be honest I think it would have worked a lot better if Spottedleaf was more like a sisterly figure instead of romantic. The arc with Sandstorm would not have happened, we wouldn't have to think about adult Spottedleaf falling in love with apprentice Firepaw, AND it still would have made sense that he missed/dreamed about her so they still would be able to have a close relationship and I honestly think it would have made her death more impactful because I feel like people would have cared about their relationship more. But alas, I do not write the books so oh well.
@@hollyfrog I mean a lot of writers will make all relationships between a man and a woman romantic, as if there’s no other way for them to be close. The only exception to that rule is when they’re siblings. It’s really frustrating, especially when the relationship in question is WAY better when it’s platonic, or just doesn’t make sense romantically, like Spottedleaf and Firestar.
Exactly! What i noticed in the books Spottedleaf was always described in every scene she came in as “beautiful “ “pretty “ “smells good” etc… but Sandstorm has never been called beautiful in the books or anything.. she was a sand colored cat I think that in itself is very beautiful. She should’ve had a bigger role and more kits with Firestar. Their love should’ve also been more shown
@@wompwompuwoah I’ve never thought of it like that! Yes I do think spottedleaf shouldn’t have just been “ooo pretty cat” and nothing else sandstorm was never called anything like that if I remember? Good eye
@@wompwompu it made me so happy when they were laughing and joking around before a gathering and just being affectionate goobers because their relationship is so devoid of anything deep that I will take any kind of happy and positive interaction (this was before they got a bombshell dropped on them in some random arc) but I definitely think that they should have been closer.
The author's are probably weirdos too. They're hella misogynistic (despite most of them being women) and ablest. Whenever you criticize the Erin's they throw the "bUT CAtS In The WiLd dONt dO tHaT" as if their whole clan system isn't completely made up, cats in the wild wouldn't live in giant prides like dogs they're all loners. God I wish the higher power that determines what happens to the book would just fire the Erin's and make an immediate reboot the series desperately needs it. I think most of the older fans wouldn't mind because we already have a multitude of problems with the series as is, in every single arc and newer fans can experience a proper warriors series.
Spottedleaf never really turned into a child predator. I see her trying go with hold the crush, shes never trying to get with Firepaw when shes alive. Nor when shes dead. She knew Sandstorm was with him and even when she dies for the second time. She saves Sandstorm, showing she gave up. She was annoying in Starclan, but it was helpful. And she did start to actually like Firepaw. But she held back. Even when she was giving him his live, she used love and said it to use it for Sandstorm. Well “ especially “ Sandstorm. Spottedleaf knows Sandstorm lived Firestar and Firestar loved Sandstorm.
I always viewed Spottedleaf’s post-death crush on Fire as linked to her angst over dying young. When she sees him she probably sees life the way she could have lived it, had she not been shackled to her responsibilities. I always doubted it had much to do with him specifically at all.
I dislike Spottedleaf but that take would make me like her actually. It makes perfect sense to make her jealous of those who could live life until elderden
I've always wondered what the prophecies begin arc would've been like if Redtail had been Fireheart's spirit guide. Then have Spottedleaf be Leafpool's guide. It would've added such a good air of mystery to StarClan. That perhaps warrior spirits can only speak to warriors and MediCat spirits can only talk to healers or leaders. I dunno I think anything would've been better than Spottedleaf pining after a living cat even after giving him his blessing he shouldn't have needed for Sandstorm.
That's actually an amazing idea! I had another thought related to yours! What if in Firepaw/heart's dreams he never clearly saw a cat that was talking to him? Firepaw/heart would think that it's a Starclan cat talking to him, could hear him, but never really saw his fur, so it was harder for him to realise. Then, during his nine lives ceremony he would realise that it was Retail all along who always wanted to help him because Fireheart was the only cat willing to find the truth. Besides your point about medicine cats also makes sense. I mean it is said in books that medicine cats have knowledge and wisdom that other warriors don't really have. It would make sense that two medicine cats talk to each other
The only problem for me is that I headcannon Redtail looking after Ravenpaw, and helping him get over his trauma. But I think I might like this better.
@@skygazer6082 you know what? Redtail is now the ghost mentor/ father figure to Graystripe, Firestar, and Ravenpaw and he just keeps an eye on them because they are the only ones that seem to care about the truth
I wish Firepaw/heart's guide was Redtail. It makes much more sense thematically for a cat that was murdered to guide the living that want to find the truth behind his death. Why wouldn't he tell them upfront what happened can be easily ommited with some clever ideas and new Starclan cannon, maybe there's a time after death ghosts are still adjusting to the new realm they are in and for this reason lose some memories temporarily/have to learn some basic skills again? It would be a great introduction of HOW Starclan actually worked but it's clear 1st arc never wanted Starclan to be anything other than a mysterious force that no one can actually coprehend fully. If 1st arc was written today it would be completely different for sure
Or it could have Tigerclaw attack from behind? By the time Redtail sees the scene again a few seconds later as a StarClan cat, Tigerclaw's doing his "oh no, the deputy's dead" thing and doesn't seem suspicious. This gives a little more evidence that something's wrong - Redtail can say that Oakheart was killed by the rockslide (but Fireheart would still need to go to RiverClan for proof since his Clan doesn't know he can talk to StarClan). He can also say that whoever killed him was someone who should've been at the battle, otherwise, he would've smelled an unusual scent before he died. Maybe a few more ThunderClan and RiverClan cats could've seemed suspicious to make it less obvious as well? This seems like a really good idea, it's too bad it didn't happen in the books.
I also realized that Ravenpaw being convinced that it was Tigerclaw while Redtail says that it couldn't be would've added a lot more uncertainty. Who does Firepaw believe - his close friend or the deputy who was there?
Personally, I got the idea that Firepaw had a crush on Spottedleaf, but that it wasn’t mutual. I always assumed that the reason she always came to being his prophecies was because StarClan identified his feelings, and knew he would pay the most attention to her omens because of that. I have no idea where they got the romance from on her end. It doesn’t make sense.
I will always hold that Mapleshade should have attacked LEAFPOOL during the Great Battle. Since she also had half-Clan kits and yet wasn’t exiled. Also Spottedleaf would die protecting Firestar’s daughter.
My Great Battle addendums: Brambleclaw kills Thistleclaw(just think about it) Pinestar… helps? Ferncloud takes down Brokenstar Ivypool and Beetlewhisker kill Hawkfrost Mapleshade goes after Leafpool, kills her, and then Spottedleaf and Mapleshade kill each other Any of the Clan founders are there. Lionblaze and Breezepelt are locked in a horrible fight for the entirety of the battle until Leafpool dies, in which they stop. Idk if y’all have more help me out.
@songbird 64 I love the idea of Brambleclaw killing Thistleclaw! Thistleclaw being the one who taught Tigerclaw to be evil and Brambleclaw being Tigerclaw's son who refused to follow his father down that path
@@shyrups ugh thanks. I have no reasoning for Fern other than she deserved better but Bramble and Thistle… god I would have loved for that confrontation. It would have given Bramble an outlet for all his bitterness and anger over Tigerstar’s legacy, as it was technically Thistleclaw’s fault. Idk.
If there is any possibility for a mini talk video, I recommend Stormcloud since he is the last kitty pet to join thunderclan before warriors took a conservative turn.
@There's Corn in my Bread, help also in pinestars choice decided out of nowhere to go on an ableist rant about how it was better for frecklewish to have died instead of lived as blind cat and then was awful towards goosekit
@@hudadog what??? No, that's only in maps, in the books it's only one and there's a huge inconsistency between goose n pine vs maple's novella with the pine and goose ones having had the snakes spit venom in her eyes. We even know for a fact that if ravenwing was alive or tc swallowed their pride and asked for another clans help she would've survived. Hell we don't know what snake it is but we know she was still alive when mapleshade died. He was also specifically saying it about being blind and not the venom which would've been cured.
also if we consider spottedleaf's honest answer canon, that has some really troubling implications for there being a cycle of abuse/grooming, where she follows some of the feelings that thistleclaw had for her, and then acted on them in the form of openly pining for fireheart and reciprocating his feelings. its just a mess.
Vicky's favourite thing to do is make characters in this series be gross out of nowhere. She wrote both Spottedleaf's Honest Answer AND Spottedleaf's Heart (A.K.A The novella that made Thistleclaw even worse of a person for literally no reason) edit: before you reply, yes i know thistleclaw was already bad. in my comment i said 'even worse' - vicky made him an even worse cat.
@Moonkitti Wasn't it Tigerpaw who beat up Tiny and Thistleclaw just told him "go for it lol"? Not that allowing a teenager to beat up a child makes it any better. The child predator crap came out of left field, though.
@@Keznen I know he was bad, what I said in my comment was that he became gross. Gross in the predatory sense. He was already bad enough to go to the dark forest, so Vicky making him even worse and butchering his character for no reason was so confusing and wrong.
honeslty Firestar, having a crush on Spottedleaf makes perfect sense when he was young. But I think their relationship should have been more of a big sister little brother relationship. Like when she was alive she viewed him like a child and then made sure to protect and tried to guide him in her afterlife. And tell him she cares about him but never loved him the way he had wished.
From what I understand, cats touching noses with each other is just a friendly 'Hi, how are you' sort of greeting. So it honestly could have been just that when Spottedleaf does that with Fireheart the times that she does. But yeah, it would not be at all surprising to me if her being in love with him was retconned to be a thing.
firepaw's obsession with spottedleaf was always so weird to me because you knew her for a few months at best and even so only spoke to her like a few times? why did he act like his wife got murdered that was basically a stranger. spottedfire is like the most forced "romance" i have ever seen by far like it's almost impressive how bland, generic and utterly forced into the story it is just for the sake of drama
Literally in spottedleafs honest answer when she talks about her death and says “I wish I could have just stayed with my sweet Firepaw.” Like ummm Spotted talked to him maybe four times over the course of the book and they were all just telling him how to use certain herbs. Firepaw may have had a crush on her but she certainly NEVER once while she was alive showed the she reciprocated these feelings
@@Spidermonkey43 right even if you put aside the whole age gap issue it just doesn't make any sense, it really feels like we're being gaslit into believing they were super close and star crossed lovers or whatever when they were like co workers who exchanged small talk at the water fountain once a week. it's certainly...a choice
Spottedfire was poorly targeted fanservice Some fans liked the idea (or mistaked spotted for actually like fire) and then the erins decided to make it canon for the fans... except, those fans weren't the majority, really, or were young kids at the time who liked cute kitty love stories and drama At least, that's what I heard, and it'd make sense
I was one of the kids that liked this ship, I had no idea Spottedleaf was so old. I didn't grasp how warriors worked and didn't like how disconnected fire and sand had seemed in my eyes (the bickering and not even giving sand an apprentice)
@@sokaize after rereading the books, it REALLY stuck out to me that Spottedleaf was so much older because medicine cats have to go through so much training to become full medicine cats. Jayfeather and his siblings are a great example of this, so that makes it even worse.
Somewhere i read someone saying: "If you can't find it in the books, then it isn't true. It doesn't matter if the authors talk about it in interviews or share exclusive insider information. If you cant find it in the actual core work and only in later extra content that you need to seek out, then the authors are not doing you justice as the reader." It wasn't about Warriors but I think it applies to all series. I don't mind when creators share hints or extra things, as long as you can find it in the original work. Maybe it wasn't completely in plain sight and now that you know more you can see it fully, but it has to actually have been there from the start.
That right there is called Death of the Author! And it's a common form of literary analysis, "pretend the author is dead and they have no way to correct you on your interpretations of the base text". Contrast it with Word of God, which is when people take the author's word as canon. A good rundown on both concepts can be found on TV Tropes. Also, regarding the Su Susanne nonsense, her Missing Kits series would've been categorized as Word of St Paul (it's canon because someone close to the author said it), potentially Word of Dante (it's canon because some rando said it way after the fact).
10:46 if anything it sounds like book 1 dead spottedleaf eventually realized fireheart was going to keep trying to contact her forever and ever if she didn’t distance herself and then when he finally started noticing another girl she came to his ceremony and went “yes, omg *please* keep doing the thing you’re doing right now in being interested in pursiung sandstorm”
I remember even as a kid reading through the books being really confused when they were stated to be romantic in the later books. To me they were just friends, and I saw Spottedleaf as much older and just being polite and Firepaw's side if anything just being a regular kid crush.
You know, this reminds me of the whole Frecklewish debacle: In both cases, we get unreliable narration coloured by a character's perspective (Fireheart's crush makes him read stuff into Spottedleaf's actions that isn't necessarily there, while Mapleshade projects her guilt onto Frecklewish), but later it gets taken at face value even by the authors themselves. While it's relatively harmless with Fireheart/Spottedleaf, it does set a worrying precedent. I think the writers need to make it clearer that viewpoint characters don't always have things 100% right - sometimes they're misinformed, make assumptions, or are outright deceptive.
It’s not that similar imo since we have proof from both Nettlepaw and Frecklewish herself saying that she saw the kits and Mapleshade initially being swept away.
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 The issue there is the assigned motives. Frecklewish may not have saved the kits, but there's nothing other than Mapleshade's word to suggest she did it out of malice, and the text implies she just had no good way to help and/or thought the RiverClan cats had things under control. In both cases, it's assuming what the viewpoint character says or thinks is true without any facts to back it up.
@@MLPCloudCuckoolander To be fair to Mapleshade, the last interaction Frecklewish had with the kits is her calling them “half-Clan creatures” and demanding they be driven out so it’s not that big of a mental leap.
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 at the same time, what could she do? Jump in and drown because she can’t swim let alone in a flash flooding raging river? Common sense is out the door when it comes to Mapleshades POV, which is also why her kits died.
@@mageofdoomsie1598 And there is also the fact that her brother died by drowning, if I remember correctly. That just gives yet another possible reason as to why she didn't jump in the river to try and save them
as someone who thinks spottedleaf’s heart is redeemable through a rewrite rather than a “throw the whole novella in the garbage” person like a lot of wc rewriters are, it is SO important to me that spottedleaf was not attracted to firepaw. with the context of spotted’s heart, it raises SUCH a concerning implication about the cycle of abuse being perpetuated by a survivor, and firestar being so… like, strung along by it, for four whole arcs. especially since the text of spotteds heart is already so victim blamey towards spottedpaw. Oh Boy
Spottedleaf’s heart should have been rewritten to her liking someone her age who she finds out likes someone else (like a Bristlefrost and Stemleaf thing) or it could have been with her being caring and helping her Clanmates as she becomes a med cat. (Those are just my ideas tho)
I agree so much, I love spottedleaf so much and she is a big comfort character. her novella could have worked if they just didn't victim-blame her at the end (and probably some more changes but that is my biggest issue with the book) I have always been a big advocate that Spottedleaf did not have any feeling for Firestar when he was an apprentice. I hate when people use Spottedleaf's heart just use as "evidence" that she like Firepaw cuz it was normalized to her.
Spottedleafs heart but it handles the topping of grooming well,doesn't Victim blame and has Spottedleaf always wanting to be a medicine cat with thistleclaw trying to make her not be one. Maybe instead of weird unrequited feelings there's anxiety she'll end up like thistleclaw and harm firepaw SOMETHING BETTER THAN MMMM
I personally like the idea of a character as seemingly immaculate and perfect as spottedleaf having a past of abuse that she passes onto Firepaw, unconscious or not. I just hate how they went about it. There is a flippant attitude about her "love" for firepaw when it could have been so much more interesting than that. It could make her, as well as the characters she visits in dreams. Have much more of a different attitude toward eachother as well as love in general. I guess I just wish she was more edgy.
THANK YOU this thing has caused actual harm to real life grooming victims in the fandom to the point my partner was kicked out of a map for something he had been groomed into, with the host implying he was "dangerous" because of it when he explained it to them. (he asked me not to mention names tho for his own safety so pls dont ask)
The though of Spottedleaf being romantically interested in Firepaw when she was alive feels Extra Icky because it was kind of implied that she became a medicine cat to get away from Thistleclaw. I doubt that this crossed the writers' minds while writing the books, but it could easily be read that way.
I would love a mini talking on Sandstorm, the implication that Firestar would choose SpottedLeaf over his actual mate and the mother of his children always rubbed me the wrong way and made me dislike Firestar as a whole for a time.
sorry for replying to a 10 month old comment dont wanna be creepy but I think it's funny. raven gets barley and fire gets sand. they both get someone they love, but I like the thought of raven liking fire.
My problem was their romance, Firepaw is a literal child, Spottedleaf is 2-3 years old, I just don’t like it, and i don’t like firestar thirsting over a dead girl right in front of his wife
As spottedleafs biggest fan i thank you for this video. one time to prove a point i name searched spottedleaf on an into the wild pdf and not once does she indicate any feelings towards firepaw
9:00 come to think of it firepaw/ravenpaw would make a much more compelling ship than spottedfire. they were already best friends, ravenpaw trusts firepaw with the truth even when it would be life threateningly dangerous to tell the wrong person, they basically cuddle after that, firepaw is very protective of ravenpaw and takes a massive risk to save him, ravenpaw helps fireheart out multiple times even when fireheart has to sneak out and risk getting caught to see him, theyre probably together in starclan now...
The idea of spottedleaf falling in love with fireheart/star after death could have worked and been cool if they actually ran with that narrative. They could have given them a scene of discussing the feelings with Firestar either putting his feelings to the side for Sandstorm or them deciding to be mates in starclan and deal with the fallout of it. It would either give a nice closure to it or allow the characters to be seen in a new light. Even from book one to two the situation is written so weird. Firepaw was clearly written to think she's pretty and with a possible crush, but then next book it's as though it's cemented in that he loves her and that comes off as weird when they've had no interaction to show that.
I hate the idea of that now it's your opinion so you do you but sand storm was treated like trash and spotted leaf was a med cat I hate when med cats fall in love idk why but I just do breaking the code always got on my nerve unless their a villain because that builds character but spotted leaf was written like a weird pervy she and I don't like that at all but that's not my point firestar is the one I don't like because of this he was the one that put sandstorm through that
as someone who loves spottedleaf, i always found it weird how a lot of people disregard almost every retcon EXCEPT this one. they treat them as retcons. but when they talk about spottedleaf's feelings they act like they've always been there.
Spottedleaf: claims her undying love for Firestar Leafpaw:Heeeellll….MUM! MUM DAD’S GONNA CHEAT ON YOU! A DEAD WOMAN WANTS TO MARRY HIM! Her starry mentor saying she was in love with HER DAD must have been so awkward
I remember being creeped out but not by Spottedleaf. It was clear she didn’t return Firepaw/Fireheart’s crush and I was more so just creeped out that the writers kept making a character who was essentially a child constantly pine after a character who was considered an adult in the books
I honestly believe their relationship should have grown more platonic as the series went on. Like, Firepaw had a crush on Spottedleaf, but it's clearly for superficial reason (she's pretty, she shows him basic level kindness, etc.) and he doesn't actually get to know her until after she dies. He comes to genuinely love her as a person, but stops seeing her in a romantic light.
Spottedleaf has always been a character I wasn`t too interested in, maybe a bit annoying after her death since she appeared in almost *every* dream sequence afterwards. It is cool to see content on her, though!
I always kinda viewed spotted leaf as one of those school nurses that’s chill with highschool students. Not friends or particularly close, just chill enough to let you skip class in the nurses office if it’s empty, because they remember trying to skip class as a kid. And maybe gives you a mint is they have any.
I personally dont feel she was in love with him. Perhaps she grew to like and care about him but didn't she become a medicine cat to avoid relationship drama bc of Thistleclaw? She seemed to take her duty as medicine cat seriously too and I dont think she wouldve acted on any romantic feelongs had she developed them
@@Littlefox1213 this!!! I LOVE SPOTTEDLEAF AS A PROPHETIC CHARACTER SIMILAR TO THAT OF FIVER FROM WATERSHIP DOWN!! what I DONT love is her being depicted as being totally crazy about firestar... c'mon!!!
when i readthe books as a kid i loved spottedleaf so the fact they changed her so much from arc 1 to 2-- nope in my brain spotted having feelings for firestar doesn't exist
If there's another mini-talk video I think Sol would be a good idea, especially because of his backstory in SkyClan and the Stranger I think he'd be an interesting character to hear what you have to say about him
I always strongly believed the whole pinning Firestar and Spottedleaf together was so dumb when let’s be for real they almost never interacted so how would they fall in love? She never needed to give Firestar a “blessing” for Sandstrom. Sandstorm deserved better representation in the books. Spottedleaf was ALWAYS described as “sweet smell “ “beautiful “ “gentle” etc etc so much praising over her but for Sandstorm??? Absolutely nothing I just reread the series and never once up to when Firestar dies was she called “beautiful “. It’s his literal wife, their love should’ve been portrayed more and they should’ve had more kits. The writers should’ve done justice to Sandstorm and their relationship instead of trying to make Spottedleaf a unnecessary hero or main cat in Firestar’s life. Such a disrespect was landed on Sandstorm in Spottedleafs final deal “we can’t be together my love” and Firestar with “you said you’d wait for me”. So disrespectful on so many levels why would they make Firestar unloyal to his WIFE they should’ve scrapped this. It’s creepy if he was in love with her & says that Leafpool reminds him so much of Spotted leaf… Anyway my whole point is that Sandstorm is a beautiful queen deserved better in the books & Redtail or a more iconic cat should’ve been Firestar’s spirit guide.
I...honestly forgot she was ever treated as a romantic intrest for Firestar. I mainly remembered her as the nice medicine cat I wanted to train under, holy cow. Intresting video, very much agree with not liking her being a romantic intrest
wow. i'm 24 and have been reading these books since i was 9 and this totally changed my feelings on (arc 1) spottedleaf - she's just a sweet, mischievous, hard working girl devoted to her clan, with so much potential for snarkiness. i love her. verified spottedleaf stan now. and i don't know why but in all these years i'd never considered the prospect that she developed feelings AFTER her death, when she saw what a capable and honourable leader he was becoming for the clan they both loved. i'll happily accept that. also the fact that bluestar's prophecy has existed as long as bumblestripe is... insane
Idk but I constantly feel bad for Sandstorm Like, being a second option, the feeling of not being enough for the person you love and disappearing all her fierce personality, plus not giving her the opportunity of being together with another bTom that actually loves her Idk, it’s just sad
Your analysises of the series are my favourite out of other warriors youtubers because you consistently refrence the actual books and the objective actions of the characters and events. Everyone interprets and and remebers the books differently, and has their own headcanons and opinions but yours are based on objective things that happened. I myself find myself remembering things that didnt happen, or totally misremembering events of the books until re reading them. Afterall the series is so long it can be hard to know if some thing happened in the series or if you just read it online somewhere.
Warriors at it again with the lack of effort in copy-pasting quotes 💀 All they could have done was copy and paste the quote 😭 I love that you’re one of the few Warrior-tubers that calls out the things that should have been considered “fanon” the whole time.
I honestly dont think firepaw's crush on spottedleaf should be retconned, its cute in a "middle schooler with a crush in the school nurse" kinda way. With the context that firepaw is a young boy in a new place its not an unrealistic arc for him to be going through, to see a pretty older girl and be all shy around her. But the authors never should have taken it further than that. Even if fireheart pined for her for a while, theres NO good reason for spottedleaf to reciprocate. She treated firepaw nicely, maybe a little nicer than her default because she was fond of him, but her time alive never gave any implications that she liked him back in a romantic way. Ive always thought spottedleaf's reactions to firepaw should be amusement, thinking hes charming maybe but not legitimately considering the relationship
Honestly I believe that Longtail x spotted leaf made for sense even though they barely talk, anyone else would make more sense or no one at all. But why do people ship a small child with a grown lady who literally just gave him herbs tbh
I interpretted that spottedleaf developed feelings for firestar when she died, because she was missing out on being alive and had nothing better to other than be jealous that sandstorm and firestar were alive. I find it funny he has a sort of weird teenage crush on her though. I feel like it maybe made spottedleaf aware that she was dead and what she was missing out on?
her catching feelings for him right off the bat is... extremely gross if she's of an age that would make dating an apprentice inappropriate. And plays off the whole "victims becoming abusers" thing without actually dissecting it, as is the standard for problematic warriors cat canon content
Dude she was a medicine cat and he was an app even if people ship them when firestar come of age that's like waiting for the child to grow 18 and date them straight away. Its beyond creepy and unsettling
@@killuasclawsYeah but I don’t think he was over at least 13 moons, it’s pointed out that Graypaw and Firepaw are younger than Sandpaw and Dustpaw who’ve been apprentices longer than them.
Hi moon! I really love your content and your artistic ability. I especially love your humor and your analysis. Thank you for posting this amazing content. It absolutely makes my day whenever I watch your channel!
When Spottedleaf was alive, Firepaw's relationship with her is like a kid admitting to their babysitter they have a crush on her and her just being like, "ahah, okay, kid, go take your medicine and go to bed". Maybe that's why I always had issue with Spottedleaf. I came into the series pretty late, when they were already pushing the idea that she was in love with him and I was never quite comfortable with that as I read on. It seemed forced.
side tangent on leafpool's prefix naming-- I was really disappointed how the 2nd part of AVoS had Leafpool and Leafstar living in the same place briefly, and had no interactions between them about this legacy name. I think that would've been sweet to have Leafstar recognize how Firestar chose to honor her when he returned home, and potentially show Firestar had chosen to share stories with his daughter (maybe in confidence) about her namesake.
Thinking about it now,I realize a decent bit of ickness that specifically retroactively effects the prophecies begin is a retcon,usually stemming from the new prophecy.
Spottedleaf’s story through all the books are just such a mess. I really wish that she was just Firestar’s friend and childhood crush. But since that sadly didn’t happen, this is how I think about it. (This comment mentions Spottedleaf’s Heart, so if that makes you uncomfortable just watch out) Spottedleaf notices Firepaw’s obvious crush on her, but chooses not to return the affection and continue the cycle of abuse that Thistleclaw started, even if she desperately wanted another go at love. Later, when she is killed, she chooses to hang around Firepaw, effectively living out her dreams of becoming a warrior through him. But as he reaches the same-ish age as her, she starts to see him as the mate she never had. Over the books she would become more obsessive and lonely (resulting in what we see in Spottedleafs Honest Answer) Then, when Spottedleaf is dying in The Darkest Hour, she would come to her senses and tell Firestar to go and love Sandstorm. But hey, what she says in the books when she dies is basically “oh woe is I, dear Firestar, for we can not be together eternally in death” I suppose when she “opens her mouth as if she’s trying to tell him something” could be her trying to tell him to go love Sandstorm. Just an idea :)
Complete tangent, but I've always really like the emphasis on smell in the books since smelling is the main way cats interact with the world, though I can see how it comes off as a bit weird. 😅
its almost like the whole issue with all relationships in warrior cats that i hate: both the cats innately know they will be a couple, its NEVER discussed directly, ever. the cats just end up together. i hate it sm
I know you said we're not talking about Spottedleaf's Heart, but factoring that novella into the conversation makes her "crush" on Fireheart (and FirePAW) a million times worse. Spottedpaw's "relationship" with Thistleclaw was arguably the most traumatic part of her life. She became a medicine cat in order to get away from him (there's something...problematic about the Erins making Spottedpaw's only alternative to a predatory relationship be basically making herself a nun, but that's a whole other topic). And for them to then write Spottedleaf repeating that cycle with Firepaw, for them to insinuate that she actually had a crush on him as an apprentice, spits in the face of what little character she actually had that wasn't simply her being a cardboard cutout for Fireheart to project feelings onto. It makes her into everything that she changed her entire life to get away from. And while this could be compelling for a different (AND MUCH MORE MATURE) piece of media, it just does not fit with her character, which we know of to be sweet and selfless and concerned for greater wellbeing
Firepaw casually upset over spottedleaf dying, Meanwhile Graypaw: Why you making this all about yourself dude? Firestar crying over spottedleaf dying a second time, mean while Graystripe: Your still making this about yourself..
It’s about as retconned as Silverstream suddenly not being okay with Graystripe being with Millie despite encouraging the relationship and knowing they’d been together much longer than she had
you're so right omg
When does this happen? Still on DOTC
@@jellybeanmutt3228 the broken code
@@jellybeanmutt3228 End of the arc 7
Dear god
The biggest problem I have with Firestar "choosing Spottedleaf in Starclan" is the implication that he'd choose a highschool crush over his wife that he'd been with for like, literally 3/4 of his life! No one would do that, let alone angelic, can do no wrong even if he tries, goodboi Firestar!
Idk man alot of people look very fondly upon their old crushed because nostalgia. If given the choice BY GOD with them both right Infront of you I feel 70% of marriages would crumble Lol
add that the “high school” crush was essentially the equivalent of the school nurse
@@bingdinggold1877 that's a very depressing way of seeing the world. Not sure what people you are around with in real life but I don't know a single person who would make that choice, it's just stupid
@@bingdinggold1877 what the actual hell
@@billcipher8645 idk lol Im talking about like 40 year olds and Ive lived in a small town and big city in the south idk if it matters or adds context
i always thought firepaw's feelings for her were a representation of a common experience teenagers have where they have a crush on their teachers for a short period of time
which is why the feelings being mutual is very creepy to me--
AGREED i felt the exact same way. an apprentice having a crush on a warrior/med cat is understandable but the older one returning those feelings? creepy
it SHOULD by all means just be a kid crush, but it being both reciprocated and treated as if it was an actual relationship is so weird!!!
@@clawcakes2 exactly. if the authors REALLY wanted to do a forbidden romance spotted could've been a med cat apprentice and fire a warrior apprentice. that way the ages aren't weird. sigh
thank you!!!! the adult being female does not make it any less creepy, especially since upon meeting firepaw was a young apprentice and spottedleaf had been a med cat for quite a bit. him having a crush on her is fine, but imagine a 30-year-old interested in a relationship with a 15-year-old who has a crush on her. its creepy, and also quite unsettling considering the events of spottedleaf's heart, which is really not such a different situation, is it?
@@Espion- you know I completely forgot she was an adult cat 😅 but you’re right
At least Spottedleaf's iconic ability to smell really good will ultimately make the memories of her life as spotless as ever.
Like why she smell so good tho????
@@Bob_0o0 No ideea
My personal headcanon is Firepaw was smelling catmint on her and just attributed it to her specifically at the time bc he was a teenager who had a crush on her and had never been near any herbs prior to joining ThunderClan
@@steampunk-llama that's really interesting, actually! never thought of that!!!!
How ironic! 😭
I alwyas hated that. It just makes everything so messed up.
In my AU I would make Firepaw have crush on her but then he grews out of it, and when they are both dead and in Starclan she teases him constantly that he had a crush on her when she was young and he's just so embarrassed by it.
wait i actually love that au it sounds so wholesome lmfao
"Hey, remember that time you said I smelled good?"
"GOD NO PLEASE-"
why can't this be canon pleaseeeeeee
imagine even Sandstorm would tease him about it lol,
Sandstorm in a joking manner: "Do I smell as good as her?"
Firestar: "Please stop"
Sandstorm: "Hey Spottedleaf, how do you smell so good?"
Spottedleaf: "Well actually it was a mixture of herbs I liked to rub into my fur and-"
_Spottedleaf and Sandstorm basically going on a tangent about cat perfume while Firestar dies of embarrassment in the background as his thing for good-smelling she-cats is exposed to everyone_
HOW DO I FAVORITE A COMMENT
I would now like to consider this canon, I LOVE THIS AU SM
I actually really like the idea of Spottedleaf encouraging Fireheart to love Sandstorm, like that's actually really sweet.
Exactly! Unlike the way it’s written in the books…
Why....just why..........😂😂😂😂 noooo spottedleaf dont tell everyone your in love with firestar 😂😂😂😂 its against the code.. 😂😮😮😮 yay for moonkitti🎉🎉🎉🎉
i see it as “dude i’m way older than you and i knew you for less than a month, move tf on” but it’s still sweet.
I love to think of her as a motherly figure and firestar's wingman, she loves him but only platonically
@@PurgatoryProductions1It kinda reminds me of dipper and Wendy from gravity falls
Theory: she always disappears when he thinks about how nice she smells when she comes to him in dreams is because she's extremely uncomfortable with the idea of him having a crush on her.
Lmfao after moonkitti said "fireheart mentions how good she smells and then she disappears" I legit thought thats how she interpreted it too
Also Spottedleafs smell is most likely just the herbs (thought leafpaw mentions she smells good too despote being a med apprentice around herbs all day)
@@bingdinggold1877 Spottedleaf invented cat perfume off screen /j
@@blueberryf1nch969 (this is a very old comment but i like coming back to moonkitti's videos) but i imagine spottedleaf being the kind of cat who'd put flowers on her pelt or smth (like how on wcue on roblox, you can put nature accessories on your morph)
Graypaw probably called Darkstripe old BECAUSE he’s his brother
Exactly. It’s sibling teasing.
I just realized that Spottedleaf in Into the Wild fulfills the "women in refrigerators" trope (a female character that is only there to suffer or die so that the male hero can have a tragic backstory/motivation to take action). I never liked Spottedleaf but this realization kinda infuriates me since it's another example of how poorly female characters are treated in Warriors.
That "trope" seems really specific. It happens all the time with people of all gender, it doesn't need to be someone the protag is in love with either. Death is a terrible thing, of course someone you love is gonna hurt even more. I agree with your last statement though.
@@HollowKnightReference It's more commonly known as fridging and it is a trope that can happen to both men, women and pets but it's name after the most egregious fridging of a character. There was a time in comic books were it was so common people made a website that listed every female character this similar situation happened to. I believe they even included instances of it happening to pets and male character but the females far outweighed other characters.
There is a difference between fridging and character death through, Luke sky walkers aunt and uncle were fridged but Uncle ben from spider man was not and has rarely ever been. (though unfortunately aunt May repeatedly got poor treatment of being fridged in quite a few comics.) Barbara Gordon got fridged in the killing joke without even having to die.
Sunnyfall did a really good video on sexism in warrior cats and this video really shows it yet again
@@HollowKnightReference the issue is that we have a cultural build up of female (usually love interest) characters being used as a plot device to further the narrative of male characters. The issue is that it is seen as an acceptable thing to do carelessly because we are so accustomed to it. The term fridging comes from an old Green Lantern comic where the villain kills Kyle's girlfriend and literally stuffs her into a refrigerator for Kyle to find. Kyle is the only character who's reaction is made important in the narrative, reducing Alexandra's character to just an accessory to Kyle
I always took her death as shocking because they established the medicine cat role was non combatant in nature and the fact she was deliberately taken out ment more.
To be honest I think it would have worked a lot better if Spottedleaf was more like a sisterly figure instead of romantic. The arc with Sandstorm would not have happened, we wouldn't have to think about adult Spottedleaf falling in love with apprentice Firepaw, AND it still would have made sense that he missed/dreamed about her so they still would be able to have a close relationship and I honestly think it would have made her death more impactful because I feel like people would have cared about their relationship more.
But alas, I do not write the books so oh well.
I was thinking the same thing
That would imply that female and male characters who aren’t directly related are allowed to have non-romantic relationships, unfortunately :’)
@@Vivigreeny25 wdym?
@@hollyfrog I mean a lot of writers will make all relationships between a man and a woman romantic, as if there’s no other way for them to be close. The only exception to that rule is when they’re siblings. It’s really frustrating, especially when the relationship in question is WAY better when it’s platonic, or just doesn’t make sense romantically, like Spottedleaf and Firestar.
@@Vivigreeny25 oohhh
Even as a kid, I never liked the feelings Spottedleaf "had" for Firestar. Sandstorm deserves better.
Yes I agree sandstorm should have more attention if you ask me
Exactly! What i noticed in the books Spottedleaf was always described in every scene she came in as “beautiful “ “pretty “ “smells good” etc… but Sandstorm has never been called beautiful in the books or anything.. she was a sand colored cat I think that in itself is very beautiful. She should’ve had a bigger role and more kits with Firestar. Their love should’ve also been more shown
@@wompwompuwoah I’ve never thought of it like that! Yes I do think spottedleaf shouldn’t have just been “ooo pretty cat” and nothing else sandstorm was never called anything like that if I remember? Good eye
@@wompwompu it made me so happy when they were laughing and joking around before a gathering and just being affectionate goobers because their relationship is so devoid of anything deep that I will take any kind of happy and positive interaction (this was before they got a bombshell dropped on them in some random arc) but I definitely think that they should have been closer.
Hate that Spottedleaf went from being a slightly older crush to an actual child predator and I'm so sick of the authors being gross
The author's are probably weirdos too. They're hella misogynistic (despite most of them being women) and ablest. Whenever you criticize the Erin's they throw the "bUT CAtS In The WiLd dONt dO tHaT" as if their whole clan system isn't completely made up, cats in the wild wouldn't live in giant prides like dogs they're all loners. God I wish the higher power that determines what happens to the book would just fire the Erin's and make an immediate reboot the series desperately needs it. I think most of the older fans wouldn't mind because we already have a multitude of problems with the series as is, in every single arc and newer fans can experience a proper warriors series.
Spottedleaf never really turned into a child predator. I see her trying go with hold the crush, shes never trying to get with Firepaw when shes alive. Nor when shes dead. She knew Sandstorm was with him and even when she dies for the second time. She saves Sandstorm, showing she gave up. She was annoying in Starclan, but it was helpful. And she did start to actually like Firepaw. But she held back. Even when she was giving him his live, she used love and said it to use it for Sandstorm. Well “ especially “ Sandstorm. Spottedleaf knows Sandstorm lived Firestar and Firestar loved Sandstorm.
I always viewed Spottedleaf’s post-death crush on Fire as linked to her angst over dying young. When she sees him she probably sees life the way she could have lived it, had she not been shackled to her responsibilities. I always doubted it had much to do with him specifically at all.
I dislike Spottedleaf but that take would make me like her actually. It makes perfect sense to make her jealous of those who could live life until elderden
I've always wondered what the prophecies begin arc would've been like if Redtail had been Fireheart's spirit guide. Then have Spottedleaf be Leafpool's guide. It would've added such a good air of mystery to StarClan. That perhaps warrior spirits can only speak to warriors and MediCat spirits can only talk to healers or leaders. I dunno I think anything would've been better than Spottedleaf pining after a living cat even after giving him his blessing he shouldn't have needed for Sandstorm.
Ooh!! I kinda wanna steal this idea for my setting now
@kinda Anastasia I'm not looking if you wanna steal it 😆
That's actually an amazing idea! I had another thought related to yours! What if in Firepaw/heart's dreams he never clearly saw a cat that was talking to him? Firepaw/heart would think that it's a Starclan cat talking to him, could hear him, but never really saw his fur, so it was harder for him to realise. Then, during his nine lives ceremony he would realise that it was Retail all along who always wanted to help him because Fireheart was the only cat willing to find the truth.
Besides your point about medicine cats also makes sense. I mean it is said in books that medicine cats have knowledge and wisdom that other warriors don't really have. It would make sense that two medicine cats talk to each other
The only problem for me is that I headcannon Redtail looking after Ravenpaw, and helping him get over his trauma. But I think I might like this better.
@@skygazer6082 you know what? Redtail is now the ghost mentor/ father figure to Graystripe, Firestar, and Ravenpaw and he just keeps an eye on them because they are the only ones that seem to care about the truth
I wish Firepaw/heart's guide was Redtail. It makes much more sense thematically for a cat that was murdered to guide the living that want to find the truth behind his death. Why wouldn't he tell them upfront what happened can be easily ommited with some clever ideas and new Starclan cannon, maybe there's a time after death ghosts are still adjusting to the new realm they are in and for this reason lose some memories temporarily/have to learn some basic skills again? It would be a great introduction of HOW Starclan actually worked but it's clear 1st arc never wanted Starclan to be anything other than a mysterious force that no one can actually coprehend fully. If 1st arc was written today it would be completely different for sure
Or it could have Tigerclaw attack from behind? By the time Redtail sees the scene again a few seconds later as a StarClan cat, Tigerclaw's doing his "oh no, the deputy's dead" thing and doesn't seem suspicious. This gives a little more evidence that something's wrong - Redtail can say that Oakheart was killed by the rockslide (but Fireheart would still need to go to RiverClan for proof since his Clan doesn't know he can talk to StarClan). He can also say that whoever killed him was someone who should've been at the battle, otherwise, he would've smelled an unusual scent before he died. Maybe a few more ThunderClan and RiverClan cats could've seemed suspicious to make it less obvious as well?
This seems like a really good idea, it's too bad it didn't happen in the books.
I also realized that Ravenpaw being convinced that it was Tigerclaw while Redtail says that it couldn't be would've added a lot more uncertainty. Who does Firepaw believe - his close friend or the deputy who was there?
“Think for a moment about spottedleaf”
Words never before uttered
Personally, I got the idea that Firepaw had a crush on Spottedleaf, but that it wasn’t mutual. I always assumed that the reason she always came to being his prophecies was because StarClan identified his feelings, and knew he would pay the most attention to her omens because of that. I have no idea where they got the romance from on her end. It doesn’t make sense.
it doesn't but we kinda have to just go with it at this point.
I will always hold that Mapleshade should have attacked LEAFPOOL during the Great Battle. Since she also had half-Clan kits and yet wasn’t exiled. Also Spottedleaf would die protecting Firestar’s daughter.
My Great Battle addendums:
Brambleclaw kills Thistleclaw(just think about it)
Pinestar… helps?
Ferncloud takes down Brokenstar
Ivypool and Beetlewhisker kill Hawkfrost
Mapleshade goes after Leafpool, kills her, and then Spottedleaf and Mapleshade kill each other
Any of the Clan founders are there.
Lionblaze and Breezepelt are locked in a horrible fight for the entirety of the battle until Leafpool dies, in which they stop.
Idk if y’all have more help me out.
Or Bluestar, which is practically the same situation.
@@songbird6414 bramblestar killing thistleclaw and ferncloud killing brokenstar are such big brained takes omg
@songbird 64 I love the idea of Brambleclaw killing Thistleclaw! Thistleclaw being the one who taught Tigerclaw to be evil and Brambleclaw being Tigerclaw's son who refused to follow his father down that path
@@shyrups ugh thanks. I have no reasoning for Fern other than she deserved better but Bramble and Thistle… god I would have loved for that confrontation. It would have given Bramble an outlet for all his bitterness and anger over Tigerstar’s legacy, as it was technically Thistleclaw’s fault. Idk.
If there is any possibility for a mini talk video, I recommend Stormcloud since he is the last kitty pet to join thunderclan before warriors took a conservative turn.
Up!!!!!! And because he's so Sweet, he was always checking on Sparkpelt when she was depressed, making sure she was eating and playing with her kits!
@There's Corn in my Bread, help also in pinestars choice decided out of nowhere to go on an ableist rant about how it was better for frecklewish to have died instead of lived as blind cat and then was awful towards goosekit
@@quaelgeist3337 I mean, she has bitten by multiple venomous snakes, soooooo…
@@hudadog what??? No, that's only in maps, in the books it's only one and there's a huge inconsistency between goose n pine vs maple's novella with the pine and goose ones having had the snakes spit venom in her eyes. We even know for a fact that if ravenwing was alive or tc swallowed their pride and asked for another clans help she would've survived. Hell we don't know what snake it is but we know she was still alive when mapleshade died. He was also specifically saying it about being blind and not the venom which would've been cured.
@@quaelgeist3337 really? i thought that was said it the books, my bad.
also if we consider spottedleaf's honest answer canon, that has some really troubling implications for there being a cycle of abuse/grooming, where she follows some of the feelings that thistleclaw had for her, and then acted on them in the form of openly pining for fireheart and reciprocating his feelings. its just a mess.
I thought about this too. It would make so much sense too
Vicky's favourite thing to do is make characters in this series be gross out of nowhere. She wrote both Spottedleaf's Honest Answer AND Spottedleaf's Heart (A.K.A The novella that made Thistleclaw even worse of a person for literally no reason)
edit: before you reply, yes i know thistleclaw was already bad. in my comment i said 'even worse' - vicky made him an even worse cat.
Man. Thistleclaw has always been written as a terrible person. His first appearance is beating up a tiny baby kitten for no reason
@Moonkitti Wasn't it Tigerpaw who beat up Tiny and Thistleclaw just told him "go for it lol"? Not that allowing a teenager to beat up a child makes it any better.
The child predator crap came out of left field, though.
@@Keznen I know he was bad, what I said in my comment was that he became gross. Gross in the predatory sense. He was already bad enough to go to the dark forest, so Vicky making him even worse and butchering his character for no reason was so confusing and wrong.
@@nyra8263 We know and agree with you.
honeslty Firestar, having a crush on Spottedleaf makes perfect sense when he was young. But I think their relationship should have been more of a big sister little brother relationship. Like when she was alive she viewed him like a child and then made sure to protect and tried to guide him in her afterlife. And tell him she cares about him but never loved him the way he had wished.
From what I understand, cats touching noses with each other is just a friendly 'Hi, how are you' sort of greeting. So it honestly could have been just that when Spottedleaf does that with Fireheart the times that she does. But yeah, it would not be at all surprising to me if her being in love with him was retconned to be a thing.
firepaw's obsession with spottedleaf was always so weird to me because you knew her for a few months at best and even so only spoke to her like a few times? why did he act like his wife got murdered that was basically a stranger. spottedfire is like the most forced "romance" i have ever seen by far like it's almost impressive how bland, generic and utterly forced into the story it is just for the sake of drama
Literally in spottedleafs honest answer when she talks about her death and says “I wish I could have just stayed with my sweet Firepaw.” Like ummm Spotted talked to him maybe four times over the course of the book and they were all just telling him how to use certain herbs. Firepaw may have had a crush on her but she certainly NEVER once while she was alive showed the she reciprocated these feelings
@@Spidermonkey43 right even if you put aside the whole age gap issue it just doesn't make any sense, it really feels like we're being gaslit into believing they were super close and star crossed lovers or whatever when they were like co workers who exchanged small talk at the water fountain once a week. it's certainly...a choice
Yeah. People portraying Spottedleaf as some kind of child predator has always felt icky to me, _especially_ after Spottedleaf’s Heart.
Spottedleaf's Heart is an abomination that never should've existed.
Spottedfire was poorly targeted fanservice
Some fans liked the idea (or mistaked spotted for actually like fire) and then the erins decided to make it canon for the fans... except, those fans weren't the majority, really, or were young kids at the time who liked cute kitty love stories and drama
At least, that's what I heard, and it'd make sense
I was one of the kids that liked this ship, I had no idea Spottedleaf was so old. I didn't grasp how warriors worked and didn't like how disconnected fire and sand had seemed in my eyes (the bickering and not even giving sand an apprentice)
@@sokaize after rereading the books, it REALLY stuck out to me that Spottedleaf was so much older because medicine cats have to go through so much training to become full medicine cats. Jayfeather and his siblings are a great example of this, so that makes it even worse.
Somewhere i read someone saying: "If you can't find it in the books, then it isn't true. It doesn't matter if the authors talk about it in interviews or share exclusive insider information. If you cant find it in the actual core work and only in later extra content that you need to seek out, then the authors are not doing you justice as the reader." It wasn't about Warriors but I think it applies to all series.
I don't mind when creators share hints or extra things, as long as you can find it in the original work. Maybe it wasn't completely in plain sight and now that you know more you can see it fully, but it has to actually have been there from the start.
That's my entire argument with Dumbledore being gay. It isn't in the books, just tacked on later.
Yes! Exactly
That right there is called Death of the Author! And it's a common form of literary analysis, "pretend the author is dead and they have no way to correct you on your interpretations of the base text". Contrast it with Word of God, which is when people take the author's word as canon. A good rundown on both concepts can be found on TV Tropes.
Also, regarding the Su Susanne nonsense, her Missing Kits series would've been categorized as Word of St Paul (it's canon because someone close to the author said it), potentially Word of Dante (it's canon because some rando said it way after the fact).
10:46 if anything it sounds like book 1 dead spottedleaf eventually realized fireheart was going to keep trying to contact her forever and ever if she didn’t distance herself and then when he finally started noticing another girl she came to his ceremony and went “yes, omg *please* keep doing the thing you’re doing right now in being interested in pursiung sandstorm”
Spottedleaf was just that hot baby sitter that fireheart will never forget
actually crazy that they killed her and then just replaced her ghost with a completely different character with the same name
I remember even as a kid reading through the books being really confused when they were stated to be romantic in the later books. To me they were just friends, and I saw Spottedleaf as much older and just being polite and Firepaw's side if anything just being a regular kid crush.
You know, this reminds me of the whole Frecklewish debacle: In both cases, we get unreliable narration coloured by a character's perspective (Fireheart's crush makes him read stuff into Spottedleaf's actions that isn't necessarily there, while Mapleshade projects her guilt onto Frecklewish), but later it gets taken at face value even by the authors themselves. While it's relatively harmless with Fireheart/Spottedleaf, it does set a worrying precedent. I think the writers need to make it clearer that viewpoint characters don't always have things 100% right - sometimes they're misinformed, make assumptions, or are outright deceptive.
It’s not that similar imo since we have proof from both Nettlepaw and Frecklewish herself saying that she saw the kits and Mapleshade initially being swept away.
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 The issue there is the assigned motives. Frecklewish may not have saved the kits, but there's nothing other than Mapleshade's word to suggest she did it out of malice, and the text implies she just had no good way to help and/or thought the RiverClan cats had things under control. In both cases, it's assuming what the viewpoint character says or thinks is true without any facts to back it up.
@@MLPCloudCuckoolander
To be fair to Mapleshade, the last interaction Frecklewish had with the kits is her calling them “half-Clan creatures” and demanding they be driven out so it’s not that big of a mental leap.
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 at the same time, what could she do? Jump in and drown because she can’t swim let alone in a flash flooding raging river?
Common sense is out the door when it comes to Mapleshades POV, which is also why her kits died.
@@mageofdoomsie1598 And there is also the fact that her brother died by drowning, if I remember correctly. That just gives yet another possible reason as to why she didn't jump in the river to try and save them
“Think for a moment about Spottedleaf,” is a sentence none of the Erins ever listened to.
as someone who thinks spottedleaf’s heart is redeemable through a rewrite rather than a “throw the whole novella in the garbage” person like a lot of wc rewriters are, it is SO important to me that spottedleaf was not attracted to firepaw. with the context of spotted’s heart, it raises SUCH a concerning implication about the cycle of abuse being perpetuated by a survivor, and firestar being so… like, strung along by it, for four whole arcs. especially since the text of spotteds heart is already so victim blamey towards spottedpaw. Oh Boy
Spottedleaf’s heart should have been rewritten to her liking someone her age who she finds out likes someone else (like a Bristlefrost and Stemleaf thing) or it could have been with her being caring and helping her Clanmates as she becomes a med cat. (Those are just my ideas tho)
I agree so much, I love spottedleaf so much and she is a big comfort character. her novella could have worked if they just didn't victim-blame her at the end (and probably some more changes but that is my biggest issue with the book) I have always been a big advocate that Spottedleaf did not have any feeling for Firestar when he was an apprentice. I hate when people use Spottedleaf's heart just use as "evidence" that she like Firepaw cuz it was normalized to her.
Spottedleafs heart but it handles the topping of grooming well,doesn't Victim blame and has Spottedleaf always wanting to be a medicine cat with thistleclaw trying to make her not be one. Maybe instead of weird unrequited feelings there's anxiety she'll end up like thistleclaw and harm firepaw SOMETHING BETTER THAN MMMM
I personally like the idea of a character as seemingly immaculate and perfect as spottedleaf having a past of abuse that she passes onto Firepaw, unconscious or not. I just hate how they went about it. There is a flippant attitude about her "love" for firepaw when it could have been so much more interesting than that. It could make her, as well as the characters she visits in dreams. Have much more of a different attitude toward eachother as well as love in general. I guess I just wish she was more edgy.
THANK YOU this thing has caused actual harm to real life grooming victims in the fandom to the point my partner was kicked out of a map for something he had been groomed into, with the host implying he was "dangerous" because of it when he explained it to them. (he asked me not to mention names tho for his own safety so pls dont ask)
The though of Spottedleaf being romantically interested in Firepaw when she was alive feels Extra Icky because it was kind of implied that she became a medicine cat to get away from Thistleclaw. I doubt that this crossed the writers' minds while writing the books, but it could easily be read that way.
Spottedleaf's Heart was itself an abomination that never should've exist.
I would love a mini talking on Sandstorm, the implication that Firestar would choose SpottedLeaf over his actual mate and the mother of his children always rubbed me the wrong way and made me dislike Firestar as a whole for a time.
Broke: Spottedleaf was in love with firepaw
Woke: Ravenpaw was in love with firepaw
Honestly yeah, I think purring when you see someone screams ‘I’m in love with you’ way more than anything spottedleaf ever did 😭
sorry for replying to a 10 month old comment dont wanna be creepy but I think it's funny. raven gets barley and fire gets sand. they both get someone they love, but I like the thought of raven liking fire.
Love the way you design spottedleaf, I do agree she is very pretty, so you encase that perfectly into the design.
My problem was their romance, Firepaw is a literal child, Spottedleaf is 2-3 years old, I just don’t like it, and i don’t like firestar thirsting over a dead girl right in front of his wife
As spottedleafs biggest fan i thank you for this video. one time to prove a point i name searched spottedleaf on an into the wild pdf and not once does she indicate any feelings towards firepaw
AS SPOTTEDLEAF’S SECOND BIGGEST FAN I SECOND THIS
as spottedleafs third biggest fan you are SO real for that
YES
9:00 come to think of it firepaw/ravenpaw would make a much more compelling ship than spottedfire. they were already best friends, ravenpaw trusts firepaw with the truth even when it would be life threateningly dangerous to tell the wrong person, they basically cuddle after that, firepaw is very protective of ravenpaw and takes a massive risk to save him, ravenpaw helps fireheart out multiple times even when fireheart has to sneak out and risk getting caught to see him, theyre probably together in starclan now...
Im adding that to the lizt of Fireztar zhipz now
how did i not think of this before. my beloved queer boyfailures
The truth is that yes, firepaw is like: Ohh, how beautiful is spottedleaf :D and spottedleaf was like: Hehe H E R B S
“so this is is the power of bath and body works”💀💀😂
The idea of spottedleaf falling in love with fireheart/star after death could have worked and been cool if they actually ran with that narrative. They could have given them a scene of discussing the feelings with Firestar either putting his feelings to the side for Sandstorm or them deciding to be mates in starclan and deal with the fallout of it. It would either give a nice closure to it or allow the characters to be seen in a new light.
Even from book one to two the situation is written so weird. Firepaw was clearly written to think she's pretty and with a possible crush, but then next book it's as though it's cemented in that he loves her and that comes off as weird when they've had no interaction to show that.
I hate the idea of that now it's your opinion so you do you but sand storm was treated like trash and spotted leaf was a med cat I hate when med cats fall in love idk why but I just do breaking the code always got on my nerve unless their a villain because that builds character but spotted leaf was written like a weird pervy she and I don't like that at all but that's not my point firestar is the one I don't like because of this he was the one that put sandstorm through that
I'm sorry but that is actually predatory she was littary a full grown adult cat while he was so much younger
as someone who loves spottedleaf, i always found it weird how a lot of people disregard almost every retcon EXCEPT this one. they treat them as retcons. but when they talk about spottedleaf's feelings they act like they've always been there.
Spottedleaf: claims her undying love for Firestar
Leafpaw:Heeeellll….MUM! MUM DAD’S GONNA CHEAT ON YOU! A DEAD WOMAN WANTS TO MARRY HIM!
Her starry mentor saying she was in love with HER DAD must have been so awkward
Literally how weird that would have been for her. “Yeah your dad is cheating on your mom with a ghost…”
I remember being creeped out but not by Spottedleaf. It was clear she didn’t return Firepaw/Fireheart’s crush and I was more so just creeped out that the writers kept making a character who was essentially a child constantly pine after a character who was considered an adult in the books
I honestly believe their relationship should have grown more platonic as the series went on.
Like, Firepaw had a crush on Spottedleaf, but it's clearly for superficial reason (she's pretty, she shows him basic level kindness, etc.) and he doesn't actually get to know her until after she dies. He comes to genuinely love her as a person, but stops seeing her in a romantic light.
Fire'Paw: "Good-bye my sweet Spotted'Leaf.."
Gray'Paw: "Why do you make everything about yoursel-"
Fire'Paw: [ DEEP WHIFFF OF HER FUR ]
Spottedleaf has always been a character I wasn`t too interested in, maybe a bit annoying after her death since she appeared in almost *every* dream sequence afterwards. It is cool to see content on her, though!
Genuinely after this video I'm scared IM going to dream of spottedleaf tonight
@@bingdinggold1877 oh no
@BingDingGold don’t worry, she’s dead twice, she can’t get to you anymore. I hope.
@@bingdinggold1877 lol
Spottedleaf: why the hell are you smelling my fur
Can we just appreciate how freaking adorable Moon's Spottedleaf design is?
Totally irrelevant: Graypaw immediately shitting on Darkstripe and calling him old to Firepaw is peak younger sibling behavior
“spottedleaf is hot“ - graypaw, and probably firepaw too.
Fireheart: wow she is so hot she is in love with me
Spottedleaf: I am proud of my weird son. I've always wanted kids.
I always kinda viewed spotted leaf as one of those school nurses that’s chill with highschool students. Not friends or particularly close, just chill enough to let you skip class in the nurses office if it’s empty, because they remember trying to skip class as a kid. And maybe gives you a mint is they have any.
I'd honestly prefer Ravenpaw to be in love with Firepaw than Spottedleaf
I personally dont feel she was in love with him. Perhaps she grew to like and care about him but didn't she become a medicine cat to avoid relationship drama bc of Thistleclaw? She seemed to take her duty as medicine cat seriously too and I dont think she wouldve acted on any romantic feelongs had she developed them
spottedleaf is genuinely such an interesting character who got hatebombed
as someone who hates spottedleaf ur right
For some odd reason, I really liked her in Into the Wild.
@Idotic Moron calm down
@@Littlefox1213 this!!! I LOVE SPOTTEDLEAF AS A PROPHETIC CHARACTER SIMILAR TO THAT OF FIVER FROM WATERSHIP DOWN!! what I DONT love is her being depicted as being totally crazy about firestar... c'mon!!!
@Idotic Moron man im just saying she got hatebombed
when i readthe books as a kid i loved spottedleaf so the fact they changed her so much from arc 1 to 2-- nope in my brain spotted having feelings for firestar doesn't exist
If there's another mini-talk video
I think Sol would be a good idea, especially because of his backstory in SkyClan and the Stranger
I think he'd be an interesting character to hear what you have to say about him
I always strongly believed the whole pinning Firestar and Spottedleaf together was so dumb when let’s be for real they almost never interacted so how would they fall in love? She never needed to give Firestar a “blessing” for Sandstrom. Sandstorm deserved better representation in the books. Spottedleaf was ALWAYS described as “sweet smell “ “beautiful “ “gentle” etc etc so much praising over her but for Sandstorm??? Absolutely nothing I just reread the series and never once up to when Firestar dies was she called “beautiful “. It’s his literal wife, their love should’ve been portrayed more and they should’ve had more kits. The writers should’ve done justice to Sandstorm and their relationship instead of trying to make Spottedleaf a unnecessary hero or main cat in Firestar’s life. Such a disrespect was landed on Sandstorm in Spottedleafs final deal “we can’t be together my love” and Firestar with “you said you’d wait for me”. So disrespectful on so many levels why would they make Firestar unloyal to his WIFE they should’ve scrapped this. It’s creepy if he was in love with her & says that Leafpool reminds him so much of Spotted leaf…
Anyway my whole point is that Sandstorm is a beautiful queen deserved better in the books & Redtail or a more iconic cat should’ve been Firestar’s spirit guide.
I...honestly forgot she was ever treated as a romantic intrest for Firestar. I mainly remembered her as the nice medicine cat I wanted to train under, holy cow.
Intresting video, very much agree with not liking her being a romantic intrest
“FirePaw loved her because she smelled good and was pretty”
Man they be analyzing funny cat book as if it was a religious text
and im all for it
Personally I'd love to see a mini talking about Littlecloud!
His story just seems really interesting to me and he deserves some recognition
In a Scourge reborn fic I did, Spottedleaf became a mother figure to Scourge and it was v cute to write
Side note- Spottedleaf lowkey flirting with Tigerclaw is so weird considering that she's.... technically his aunt?
She is?
@@gracekim25 Yeah!! She and Redtail are siblings to Leopardfoot, who is Tigerstar's mother.
@@foxyfrolic holy crap 😶 I didn’t realise everyone is …..closely related 😅 it’s been a long while
@@foxyfrolic wait tigerclaw as in the one who tried to destroy the clans?
@@gracekim25 yes
wow. i'm 24 and have been reading these books since i was 9 and this totally changed my feelings on (arc 1) spottedleaf - she's just a sweet, mischievous, hard working girl devoted to her clan, with so much potential for snarkiness. i love her. verified spottedleaf stan now. and i don't know why but in all these years i'd never considered the prospect that she developed feelings AFTER her death, when she saw what a capable and honourable leader he was becoming for the clan they both loved. i'll happily accept that.
also the fact that bluestar's prophecy has existed as long as bumblestripe is... insane
Idk but I constantly feel bad for Sandstorm
Like, being a second option, the feeling of not being enough for the person you love and disappearing all her fierce personality, plus not giving her the opportunity of being together with another bTom that actually loves her
Idk, it’s just sad
Your analysises of the series are my favourite out of other warriors youtubers because you consistently refrence the actual books and the objective actions of the characters and events. Everyone interprets and and remebers the books differently, and has their own headcanons and opinions but yours are based on objective things that happened. I myself find myself remembering things that didnt happen, or totally misremembering events of the books until re reading them. Afterall the series is so long it can be hard to know if some thing happened in the series or if you just read it online somewhere.
Warriors at it again with the lack of effort in copy-pasting quotes 💀
All they could have done was copy and paste the quote 😭
I love that you’re one of the few Warrior-tubers that calls out the things that should have been considered “fanon” the whole time.
I honestly dont think firepaw's crush on spottedleaf should be retconned, its cute in a "middle schooler with a crush in the school nurse" kinda way. With the context that firepaw is a young boy in a new place its not an unrealistic arc for him to be going through, to see a pretty older girl and be all shy around her. But the authors never should have taken it further than that. Even if fireheart pined for her for a while, theres NO good reason for spottedleaf to reciprocate. She treated firepaw nicely, maybe a little nicer than her default because she was fond of him, but her time alive never gave any implications that she liked him back in a romantic way. Ive always thought spottedleaf's reactions to firepaw should be amusement, thinking hes charming maybe but not legitimately considering the relationship
So she goes from a potentially interesting character to the walking embodiment of a failed Bechdel test. Great
Honestly I believe that Longtail x spotted leaf made for sense even though they barely talk, anyone else would make more sense or no one at all. But why do people ship a small child with a grown lady who literally just gave him herbs tbh
The one thing the writers seem to really love to do is retcon the feelings of Starclan cats towards the living ones ,especially their lovers
I interpretted that spottedleaf developed feelings for firestar when she died, because she was missing out on being alive and had nothing better to other than be jealous that sandstorm and firestar were alive. I find it funny he has a sort of weird teenage crush on her though. I feel like it maybe made spottedleaf aware that she was dead and what she was missing out on?
If Spottedleaf wasn't an medicine cat and younger, She possibly could've become mates with Fireheart.
spottedleaf is having too much free time being dead
moonkitti talking for 26 minutes?? we've been blessed!
obsessed with sandstorm's looney toons expression at 14:30
her catching feelings for him right off the bat is... extremely gross if she's of an age that would make dating an apprentice inappropriate. And plays off the whole "victims becoming abusers" thing without actually dissecting it, as is the standard for problematic warriors cat canon content
Dude she was a medicine cat and he was an app even if people ship them when firestar come of age that's like waiting for the child to grow 18 and date them straight away. Its beyond creepy and unsettling
@@Lostgirl88 yes that's all I can say yes that's why I don't like spotted
Didn’t Firepaw become a warrior like almost right after she died?
@@killuasclawsYeah but I don’t think he was over at least 13 moons, it’s pointed out that Graypaw and Firepaw are younger than Sandpaw and Dustpaw who’ve been apprentices longer than them.
Hi moon! I really love your content and your artistic ability. I especially love your humor and your analysis. Thank you for posting this amazing content. It absolutely makes my day whenever I watch your channel!
When Spottedleaf was alive, Firepaw's relationship with her is like a kid admitting to their babysitter they have a crush on her and her just being like, "ahah, okay, kid, go take your medicine and go to bed". Maybe that's why I always had issue with Spottedleaf. I came into the series pretty late, when they were already pushing the idea that she was in love with him and I was never quite comfortable with that as I read on. It seemed forced.
side tangent on leafpool's prefix naming-- I was really disappointed how the 2nd part of AVoS had Leafpool and Leafstar living in the same place briefly, and had no interactions between them about this legacy name. I think that would've been sweet to have Leafstar recognize how Firestar chose to honor her when he returned home, and potentially show Firestar had chosen to share stories with his daughter (maybe in confidence) about her namesake.
Thinking about it now,I realize a decent bit of ickness that specifically retroactively effects the prophecies begin is a retcon,usually stemming from the new prophecy.
Spottedleaf’s story through all the books are just such a mess. I really wish that she was just Firestar’s friend and childhood crush.
But since that sadly didn’t happen, this is how I think about it. (This comment mentions Spottedleaf’s Heart, so if that makes you uncomfortable just watch out)
Spottedleaf notices Firepaw’s obvious crush on her, but chooses not to return the affection and continue the cycle of abuse that Thistleclaw started, even if she desperately wanted another go at love.
Later, when she is killed, she chooses to hang around Firepaw, effectively living out her dreams of becoming a warrior through him.
But as he reaches the same-ish age as her, she starts to see him as the mate she never had.
Over the books she would become more obsessive and lonely (resulting in what we see in Spottedleafs Honest Answer)
Then, when Spottedleaf is dying in The Darkest Hour, she would come to her senses and tell Firestar to go and love Sandstorm.
But hey, what she says in the books when she dies is basically “oh woe is I, dear Firestar, for we can not be together eternally in death”
I suppose when she “opens her mouth as if she’s trying to tell him something” could be her trying to tell him to go love Sandstorm.
Just an idea :)
SPOTTEDLEAF’S SWEET SCENT
Only moonkitti can make a 26 minute video talking about a dead love interest that doesn’t feel the same.
Complete tangent, but I've always really like the emphasis on smell in the books since smelling is the main way cats interact with the world, though I can see how it comes off as a bit weird. 😅
i can’t believe this is how i found out the dark crystal show got cancelled.
its almost like the whole issue with all relationships in warrior cats that i hate: both the cats innately know they will be a couple, its NEVER discussed directly, ever. the cats just end up together. i hate it sm
The way you voice fireheart always makes him sound like such an anime boy and I love iy
gotta love warriors-typical romance retcons. theyre the best. totally
0:11 noisy boy strikes again
I know you said we're not talking about Spottedleaf's Heart, but factoring that novella into the conversation makes her "crush" on Fireheart (and FirePAW) a million times worse. Spottedpaw's "relationship" with Thistleclaw was arguably the most traumatic part of her life. She became a medicine cat in order to get away from him (there's something...problematic about the Erins making Spottedpaw's only alternative to a predatory relationship be basically making herself a nun, but that's a whole other topic).
And for them to then write Spottedleaf repeating that cycle with Firepaw, for them to insinuate that she actually had a crush on him as an apprentice, spits in the face of what little character she actually had that wasn't simply her being a cardboard cutout for Fireheart to project feelings onto. It makes her into everything that she changed her entire life to get away from. And while this could be compelling for a different (AND MUCH MORE MATURE) piece of media, it just does not fit with her character, which we know of to be sweet and selfless and concerned for greater wellbeing
Firepaw casually upset over spottedleaf dying, Meanwhile Graypaw: Why you making this all about yourself dude?
Firestar crying over spottedleaf dying a second time, mean while Graystripe: Your still making this about yourself..
God why can't the Erin's just let this cat REST IN PEACE 💀💀💀💀
to be honest, when I was a young warriors' fan, I really liked Spottedleaf and to this day just can't bring myself to dislike her lmao
I am the 5000th like. The dopamine rush I get from this wonderful honor is honestly making me more happy then it should.