Timestamps: Section One | Introduction 0:01 Section Two | In "The New Prophecy" 4:50 Section Three | In "Leafpool's Wish" 14:31 Section Four | In "Power of Three" 16:38 Section Five | In "Omen of the Stars" 18:14 Section Six | In "Bramblestar's Storm" 24:18 Section Seven | In "A Vision of Shadows" 31:49 Section Eight | In "Squirrelflight's Hope" 32:34 Section Nine | Conclusion 1:00:38
@UwU rawr Interesting am I right Mothpool would’ve been so much better if they wanted to do Firestar’s kid x Tigerstar’s kid! They actually have a healthy relationship with realistically developed chemistry.
Never noticed this before but Squirrelflight being so desperate for kits could possibly be linked to how she was told she would be barren? She worries about getting older and not being able to have kits, which was a lie she had been forced to accept as truth for years. She fears going back to that, or that lie becoming true with age.
I also found it to be her trying to fix their relationship. When couples are fighting and they don't know how or can't talk it out, they can try to get pregnant to try and fix the problem, even though it often ends in a larger divide than the original one.
another thing: in leafpool's wish, yellowfang tells her shes never going to be able to have kits (which was a lie but she didn't know that at the time making her lean more towards actually adopting the three) so that's a pretty big factor
Squirrelflight is the poster child for domestic abuse. As a kit and apprentice, she was energetic, adventurous, bold, enthusiastic, and independent. By the end of Squirrelflight's Hope, she is none of those things. It's like Bramblestar sucked the life out of her
Why did Erin Hunter Team have to ruin all potential Bramblestar had? They made it sound like he would be a good cat and then he wasn't! I don't like it! >n
thanks for ruining my favorite character i guess.. i thought he seemed pretty good and i thought that the fighting was for drama and so people would be intrested in reading it
@@Lost_Catguythat’s a little dramatic- but im not gonna be rude to you about it. also you could’ve just simply not watched the video, its titled “Bramblestar is Worse”, what did you think it was going to be?/notmad
“Being annoying is never an excuse to treat someone badly” EXACTLY. THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING FACTS. I’m so glad I’m not the only one that thinks Bramblestar is worse Edit: thank you guys for the likes and sharing your experiences, im so sorry that you guys have had tough times too ;; you guys deserve to be happy
I agree!! It’s so annoying as I’m seen as annoying to most neurotypicals but it’s just because I’m autistic and they don’t understand it, and then I’m treated badly or bullied because they perceive me in an annoying or strange light It’s unbelievably frustrating to know people use annoyness as an excuse for abusive behaviour
honestly im pretty sure that, on the darker side of things, starclan might actually be really corrupt? i play with the idea that it's actually some kind of cult that all the clans are tied into
I haaaaaaaate it. How are they going to lie and manipulate her into doing something and then try to punish her? I wish Squirrelflight had called them out on it.
@@sillygoosegio Honestly, I don’t even think Starclan being corrupt is an idea as much as it is fully canon. We have enough moments throughout the book series showing Starclan doing some very morally questionable things, especially the fact that cats only get sent to the Dark Forest if they defy Starclan or support the Dark Forest in life, not if you do anything actually atrocious (looking at you, Ashfur). What really concerns me is the fact that these clans have been following the same societal structure for so many generations with no addressing the flawed parts of their culture nor their code because “dead ancestors’ word is law, and if you disagree, prepare to be chastised”. The clans truly are a cult.
one of the worst parts of bramblestar being abusive, in my opinion, is that they could have DONE something with him. they could have made him be a great character. and it would mean something because he was tigerstar’s son. i would have loved a book about bramblestar proving his worth, proving that he could be more than just the son of an evil cat, but he never really did
As someone who was in a real toxic relationship, Squirrelflight is 100% justified in fighting back even if it sounds harsh. A big a indicator someone you love is in a toxic relationship is they have sudden 'anger issues' for lack of better term. We get so frustrated of having to just deal with it and our concerns not being taken seriously by our abuser that we lash out at either them or other people, something I did a lot back then and most abusers take this as an oppertunity to gaslight the victim in front of complete strangers. ie - the abuser might say something, or even film it saying "Look how she's yelling at me guys? She's totally crazy!" while they act calm and collected. This is also why a lot of victims struggle with denial and think they are the real toxic person instead.
+Zack Victor - Brilliant point, dude. I'm in the same boat (except with my sole parental figure rather than a romantic one), and often said parent will use similar tactics presented in this video. My sister (unlike me, who 90% just sits there and takes it) would lash out. Of course, our parent used this as a means of justifying (well, *another* justification) for her treatment of us. People get sick of being treated cruelly and they hit a breaking point. Reacting angrily to mistreatment is an understandable thing. Also worth noting, once my sister moved out, her seemingly 'irrational' anger fell away almost immediately.
@Grace Selvanayagam my dad did that to my mum, and when he divorced her he started doing it to me. Tell the school therapist before it hits you or hurts your mom too much
Yeah, I hate when the victim's anger at their abuser is taken out of context and people paint THEM as the abusive one because their "yelling looks scary" or something
"Don't you love me anymore?" Of course squilf is worried about this - Bramblestar is dismissing her and not spending time with her. Something he's done repeatedly in the past as a manipulation tactic to show her he doesn't love or need her. He is constantly using ambivalence and mocking her and her wants and needs to show her he's in control and she's just a child he needs to humor, who doesn't know best. She's terrified, because she's gone through this before. She feels like he doesn't love her, but he's purposely made her feel that way. I can't blame her for reacting to previous repeated behaviors and recognizing the similarities here.
I haven’t read the newest books yet but holy shit it makes me so sad to have squirrelflight go through all that bs with ashfur only to have her end up with an abusive pos.
When Bramblestar compares Squirrelflight to a kit or apprentice, this reminded me of an abuse tactic where the abuser treats their victim as a child so they can only depend on them and their judgement.
I know warriors isn't realistic, like, at all, *BUT* here's a fun fact: Unspayed females cats *never* experience menopause, as humans do, which means Squirrel could be an elder and still have kittens. In fact, the oldest cat on record (that I am currently aware of) was thirty years old when she had her final litter.
Why did they make ashfur kittypet xenophobic,,,, when cloudtail,,,, a literal kittypet,,,,,, was raised along side him as his littermate????? That makes literally no sense wtf
@@seineevee The Erins: **write Ashfur to not like kittypets to show he is not a good guy** **write Brambleclaw as the hero even though he went to karate class in hell with Cat Hitler as his Sensei**
"Someone doesn't deserve to be treated badly because they're annoying." As someone who relates to Squirrelflight a lot, this line really got me. I was never a victim of abuse, but I was bullied in school because I was the weird and annoying kid. I kinda saw myself in Squirrelpaw/flight while reading TNP, so it always makes me kinda sad when people make the case she deserves her treatment just for being irritating.
Yes I’m so sorry for you and I honestly hope that (Spoilers for the broken code) Bramblestar doesn’t get his body back and goes to starclan so squirrelflight can be leader like she always dreamed of, and have a mate who loves her and another litter of kits before she dies. Reading squirrelflights hope just broke my heart
Honestly, I've always related to Squirrelflight too, as I've always been labelled as too 'stubborn' or 'annoying', so it's kind of sad that the Erins stuck her in an abusive relationship and made Bramble treat her badly for being 'annoying'. Also, someone really needs to say that line to my little brother smh bc he always calls me annoying and treats me terribly for it. :/
@@solseclipse - YES YES SQUIRRELSTAR also ugh I can totally relate to squirrelflight being pushed around for being stubborn and annoying when she’s only trying to do what she believes is right, my siblings are rude to me about that too :/
id like to say that bullying IS abuse. abuse doesn't have to be from family or people you're in a relationship with; continuous, relentless tearing down of another person is abusive behaviour and we need to destroy the idea that bullying is somehow lesser than that
"I skipped the bit where she went on trial for her crimes in life. You're welcome." I got curious and looked it up and okay, no, nope, we gotta talk about that bullsh*t "The two wake up in StarClan's territory and are greeted by Larksong, who tells them that they aren't quite dead yet, but their lives are hanging in the balance. Firestar comes along and warns them that they may not be allowed to stay in StarClan due to their deception about Leafpool's kits all those years ago. A trial is held, with Bluestar, Yellowfang, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Moth Flight, and Littlecloud as the judges: Squirrelflight and Leafpool have to explain their reasoning behind breaking the warrior code. Ultimately they decide that Squirrelflight and Leafpool have done more good than harm, and that if they die now, they'll be welcome in StarClan." StarClan actually puts Squirrelflight and Leafpool on trial for something THEY played a part in? For real?!! StarClan was the one who told Leafpool to follow her heart when she asked for guidance on whether she should run away with Crowfeather. They were the ones who gently informed her that she was pregnant, only to LIE to Squirrelflight and tell her that she was barren so that she'd be more inclined to claim Leafpool's kits and they're feckin' PUT ON TRIAL FOR ALL THIS?? F*ck off, for real, I'm so pissed about this. ASHFUR GETS TO GO TO HEAVEN AFTER NEARLY MURDERING AN ENTIRE FAMILY BUT SQUIRRELFLIGHT AND LEAFPOOL'S TICKETS TO HEAVEN HAVE TO BE DEBATED. OKAY THEN. OKAY.
@@LunamFlore I want there to be a HUGE plot twist where starclan is actually being controlled by one cat to do all these horrible things. Cause some of the things they do make no sense, unless there was actually an evil cat behind it all.
OH MY STARCLAN!!! Moon, this was a f*cking MASTERPIECE! You broke all of this down so so well and when you really see it all laid out from beginning to end it really just puts everything into perspective. Also, wonderful job with all the art on this video. This video belongs in the Warrior Cats Hall of Fame...Just *chef kiss*
I agree, you always do so well with these warriors discussion videos, you never cease to impress me and, in my opinion, you are 100% right! Have a nice day
I'd like to add the fact that (SPOILERS) In the broken code, possessed Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight badly. He guilt trips her, abuses her both physically and mentally, and abandons her. Now this behavior can be excused on the fact that it isnt really Bramblestar. But what unsettled me the most when reading was how the clan responded. A large portion of the clan didn't seem too bothered about it for a while. Why? Because this has become a normal Bramblestar thing. Nobody figured out that Bramblestar was possessed because this new cat is acting a lot like Bramblestar. I have read all four books so far btw.
The fact that he’s “punishing” her makes me beyond angry. She’s just his little object who stepped out of line and needs to be taught to never NEVER do it again.
Im really alarmed at the relationships in the warrior cats series, either the authors purposely wrote abusive relationships OR they genuinely think those relationships are normal
@@tinyalie1 oh yes absolutely, I didn't mean that to hold her up as an example of a good relationship but I can see how it read like that. What I meant was me awkwardly looking at how horrible an example of a relationship she had in her solo arc. That whole situation was... yikes
@@Romanticoutlaw no im agreeing i cant believe they had that string of relationships, thistleclaw pedophile then spottedleaf does the same to firepaw but oh its ok because shes sweet, never mind that shes a dead medicine cat, THEN her ghost gets between firestar and sandstorm just YIIIIKKKESS THEY PORTRAYED IT AS ROMANTIC
Signs of a moonkitti attack Sign 1 Moonkitti posts video about how bad you are Sign 2 The video is a hour long Sign 3 Moonkittis making valid points Sign 4 Hearing a gun load
Something that bothers me is that Squirrelflight kinda CAN'T leave Bramblestar. They're in the same Clan, they're always going to be around each other. She literally can't escape and I can't even begin to imagine how damn awful that must feel. And Squirrelflight isn't the type of cat to just runaway to a different Clan or vecome a kittypet, there is no escape for her.
Finally someone else says this! Even if she broke up or rejected him, she’s have to deal with his anger over that every single day, not to mention when they started being romantic he was her deputy, and now he’s her leader and she’s his deputy. He’s ALWAYS in a position of power above her. He also threatens to remove her from her position as deputy when she disagrees with him. Imagine what he’d do if she left him. Yikes
She wanted to be with him. There is some points in the book that they show true mateship and happiness to each other. Like when they escaped the dark forest after being taken over by ashfur, everyone focuses on the bad points when they don’t know there is other stuff off book, if she hated or was scared of him she wouldn’t try to get back with him and miss him when they were broken up.
Anyone else remember when Stormfur had a mini crush on her? ;-; I think she would have been better off with him, Ashfur AND Bramblestar are bad for her. Ashfur is too psychotic, but also wanted to hold her down back. Before the fire scene. He wanted to calm her, to tame her. Bramblestar is abusive and a massive d*ck to her. Stormfur and Brook is cute but like, I'd rather her and Stormfur be together or her be with no one at all. (Edit: Yes, there could be many other, better options for her but just saying out of all the cats that have shown romantic affection to her, Stormfur is the best.)
@@Oakhaze that is true. My only problem with Bramblestar and Squrrielflight is that she can't do anything to stop this abuse because it's gone on for so long. At this point the best thing for this to end if for Squilf to be like "ayo fuck bramblestar that betch was horrible and imma stay single or date a girl periodt"
The way people place blame on Squirrelflight because she stands her ground and doesn't back down when she knows what she's doing is right reminds me of the concept of the "perfect victim". The idea that, to be a "real" victim of abuse, you have to be completely perfect and innocent and never fight back. Otherwise, any bad behavior you show (no matter how justified) will be treated as justification for your abuse. This is how the fandom treats Squirrelflight. She's clearly in an abusive relationship, and both the cycle of abuse and her thought processes clearly show that. But because she argues with Bramblestar when he's being unfair instead of silently submitting, she's not the "perfect victim". Because she doesn't fit into the innocent and submissive box people have for abuse victims, they decide she doesn't count for being "bossy" (i.e. standing up to abuse), or "entitled" (i.e. having wants), or any other argument meant to paint her as "just as bad". Which is exactly what Bramblestar does! Even when she ALMOST DIED, he shifts the blame and says that they're BOTH at fault. What the "perfect victim" concept does, at the end of the day, is reinforce the manipulation abuse victims have to go through at the hands of their abuser. I like how you phrased it at the end: Even if Squirrelflight was bossy, or entitled, or whatever, that doesn't suddenly strip her of her experiences as an abuse victim. And for anyone reading this who can relate to this video, the same is true for you. You and your experiences are still just as legitimate and deserving of support, even if you weren't the "perfect victim".
I've always hated how many people think that abuse victims have to be sad and weak and submissive, it feels like everytime me or my friends talk about the shit we go through people don't take us seriously because we're loud and angry instead of quiet.
@@TheMorde45 I feel the same way. Loud and angry victims are just as valid as sad and submissive ones. You have a right to be angry about what happened to you, and it doesn't make you any less of a victim.
“don’t you love me anymore?” Squirrelflight throughout the books has consistently proven to be an honest, direct, and literally one of the least under-handed characters of them all (setting aside when she lied for Leafpool, that’s basically the one exception), so it def struck me as her genuinely needing an answer to that question.
I have to say,I genuinely believe the answer to that question is no,the way he’s been acting recently just sets this in stone,I could go on and on about all the times he was shown to be abusive and how that shows that he doesn’t love her,but it would be a waste,you’ve already watched the video.
True, and they also were the main male and female protagonists so they Haddddd to be together (I hate this but I’m pretty sure it’s one of the reasons)
Remember when the whole point of brambles character was to prove to firestar that he shouldn’t judge others on their bloodline/looks? As in, firestar got over being scared of him just because he was related to and looked like Tigerstar. Well the hunters threw away his “good character type” for this.
I wonder if his mindset changes after what happens Dandelionkit and Juniperkit, as he doesn’t want to have to experience the tragedy of losing any more kits?
@@TheDarthEme Oh, that hurt me. I eish it would have gone into more detail on the loss of their kits. It could have been some great character development for Bramblestar if he was afraid to have kits, not seemingly just being controlling.
@@nellbell2568 agreed. I really like Bramblestar and wish his character was written better, it’s sucks that they kind of made him a bit controlling and rude
The Erins had the ability to stop this terrible relationship when they didn't have any important things to do in later books, in bramblestars storm jessy shows up being a love interest for bramblestar. Bramblestar thinks of cheating on his cat wife with jessy, this should've been the breaking point in the relationship but for some reason it wasn't. They should have been apart, the only actual reason bramblestar didn't cheat in that book is because he raised kits with squirrelflight?? It's ridiculous in every way.
@@chxrrybxmb8204 They were still together. Just taking some time off from each other. It’s called a break I think? You take time off from the relationship then make up later or fully break up, as you’re not exactly broken up I still count it as cheating. It’s only not cheating if the two agree to seeing other people in the meantime. Imagine having a small break from your significant other only to find out that they took that time to get laid with as many people as possible?? You’d feel like they don’t truly love you. What’s the point in maybe getting back together when clearly it doesn’t affect them since they have others to get laid with? or they might find someone they love more than you.
To add onto this, they were on a break but if squirrelflight had known about what had happened between the two of them they would never have resumed their relationship.
I've seen similar situations happen when people are shipping characters that are toxic towards each other, I guess that sometimes when someone is super invested into a couple they like they overlook those things because they are more into the characters being together then how they would actually function. That's my guess anyways I've never really been one for analyzing and writing romance
@@snakewithapen5489 it his accidental,kate said that brambleclaw was incapable of being abusive,how he one of our most honorable warrior,that he always treated her as a equal and with respect and that he and squirrelflight just have different opinions and partners sometimes feel so intensely to be always racional
"Why would you help your twin sister who is the only medicine cat of this Clan and has been nothing but helpful and kind to everyone" Says the cat who almost murdered his father figure and abandoned his morals for his half brother he knew for a month
for me, the worst part is it all worked. i hated squirrelflight because i was a young, impressionable reader. i've grown past that, but i haven't read the books recently enough to really remember bramblestar's behavior. i know by now its wrong, but as a kid, the tactics WORKED. i was fully on bramblestar's side once. i wasn't even out of elementary school. if i hadn't learned better by now, i could've become bramblestar. watch what you're writing and how it's presented. the books tried to present bramblestar as sympathetic, and i, an elementary school kid, believed it. i believed that bramblestar was in the right because i couldn't have known better and nothing showed me otherwise because bramblestar is intended to be sympathetic. i also do not have some of the books that demonstrate their relationship, as i don't own more recent books, but i have many and they all contributed. YES, THESE ARE CAT BOOKS. but i learned so much from all the books i read and this was almost one of them. i almost learned that being bramblestar is okay, is good, is right. i did learn it, but not fully, and i have been working to undo that idea within themselves. you CANNOT dismiss the lessons any fiction can teach, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
THIS! I was in the same exact situation and as a young impressionable kid I didnt like Squilf either because the authors presented her in such a way were to a kid she was in the wrong. They need to be careful how they write things that they 'for kids' because most kids will think of that as normal witch is incredibly dangerous.
@@purple6242 I hope later books present her better, i largely lost interest past omen of the stars, but i doubt it after seeing this video, as even if they present squirrelflight as in the right, bramblestar is still........whats the word.......not fully presented as unsympathetic, more as a neutral party whos been sympathetic? it does not fill me with confidence.
I read Warriors much older than you started probably, so I was so confused. I though Squirrelflight was just fine, and interesting character, while Bramble just saying how annoying she is. Which is why I also don't find Jayfeather heartless or cold, like how other cats say he is, but in his mind, or even out of his mind, I can see how he truly cares for his Clanmates beneath that layer of standoffish-ness. But I have to agree, its frustration how it worked. How Bramble's attempts and everything worked out for him, and I feel so sorry for Squirrelflight.
@Skywalker Kitty Haha, I think he has a lot of nicknames. I personally call him Bramblebutt. But some say Brashblestar/Brashstar, and some with swear words in it that I prefer not to use. :D! Kinda funny how we have nicknames for certain characters.
I’m really sick of seeing people call Bramblestar a good mate and a good cat and then call Squirrelflight a bitch, when they completely ignore how Bramblestar has always treated her.
@@stric9l0l not what I meant, genius. Nobody in the fandom calls him a good mate and no one trashes on Squirrel. There’s a huge bias for her. This comment is completely wrong and out of touch. And frankly, it’s quite stupid how people get all of their opinions from two biased youtubers instead of thinking for themselves.
@@layladeclaire4737 yes because the fandom got over it this video is 2 years old anyway go back to when this was made (or even befor then) and you'll find a-lot more bramble fans but most ether changed or left
Squirrelflight is a lot like her father firestar. I'm Suprised that she never brought that up. Never went " Firestar would've helped this injured cat! " " my father would've done this " Or perhaps even challenged that her father was a better leader. Something like that. I'm very Suprised she never brought his actions up- Firestar was a great leader.
True. But some might've taken that as "Oh wow you're so 'spoiled' and 'special' aren't you" And Bramble would've definitely blamed Squirrelflight's mistrust on her father if she had said anything about it. It's actually pretty cool to see how similar she is but also how independent she. Idk if any of that made sense lmao. But yeah, she could've tried using "my father would've helped [blank]" to maybe see if Bramble would've listened
there was one bit in the new prophecy in midnight where she complains about how firestar wouldve done something about a badger but thats different. but yeah it wouldve been cool to see her do something along the lines of that. or even her saying she regretted not choosing ashfur as a mate (and yes i am aware ashfur would not have been a good mate but im pretty sure in the narrative squilf wouldnt think about that when agrivated at bramble)
I feel like Bramblestar doesn't like Squilfs actions because she's behaving like a better leader than he is, seeing her actions as good forces him to realize he's bad.
I love how when Squirrelflight breaks up with her boyfriend and explores other options she's automatically demonized, accused of leading Brambleclaw on, attempting to make her ex jealous, etc. But suddenly when Bramblestar literally openly pursues another woman and buries his face in her hair to smell her one last time nobody bats an eye and assumes this is all normal,, hmm👁👄👁
I've literally seen people hate on squirrelflight and try to justify Ashfur's actions by saying that Squirrel _cheated on him._ They were never in a relationship, Squirrel might have been interested in him for a little while because Bramble was being an absolute POS to her at the time, but Squirrel never cheated on Ash- there's no reason for him to try to murder three cats he believed were here children other than the fact he felt entitled to her because he liked her. Bramble is the apparently unfaithful one, and yet we never see anyone call him out on it, either in the books or in the fandom.
@@snakewithapen5489 Fr it’s just behavior enacted by 12yos who don’t know what a fling is. Squirrelflight’s just treated like some kind of trophy object the whole time and it’s so sick to read :/
Squirrelflight is a character I’ve always projected on bc of my abuse. Hearing somebody else say that this isn’t just me projecting is nice!! I just wish the Erin’s either didn’t use this narrative or wrote it better. Emotional abuse is a complex thing, and it’s hard to write, but it’s important. The fact that people don’t pick up on this narrative and assume squirrelflight is in the wrong is a bad sign. These are books aimed towards kids, and while I think serious topics should be covered, if they aren’t covered properly what’s the point? Idk sorry for rambling but I love this video homie
hot take: squirrelflight didn’t really do anything wrong by breaking up with ashfur. sure it sucks for ashfur, being broken up with is of course super upsetting and unfortunate, but at the end of the day squirrelflight shouldn’t have to stay in a relationship she isn’t happy in just for ashfur’s (a full grown cat who most likely knew she may still have feelings for bramblestar) sake. it wouldn’t have been fair to either of them. i honestly think squirrelflight is better off single.
This honestly should not be an unpopular opinion. Of course Squirrelflight can break up with Ashfur whenever she pleases - that's literally how relationships work. People break up all the time because they don't think it'll work out. The fact that people seriously try to fault Squirrelflight for ~wronging~ Ashfur is ridiculous and frankly, concerning.
God thank you for saying this. I'm so tired of people portraying Squilf as a villain for breaking Ashfur's heart when reality she never meant to hurt him and even tried being friends with him afterward. The fact that this is a hot take just tells you a lot about the fandom ://
@@tunaramen i’m so relieved to know there are others who believe squirrelflight shouldn’t be portrayed as heartless for ending things with ashfur. i was honestly nervous to share my thoughts because i genuinely can’t remember ever seeing anyone in this fandom defend her for doing so. squilf deserves better :(
@CLAIRE HETZLER I believe that too. Unfortunately, Stormfur would never have gone for it even though he liked her during the journey to find Midnight. He was so against Crowpaw and Feathertail being together and he knew better than to try to be with a cat from another Clan.
I'm seriously worried for whoever is writing WC, especially people who wrote Squilf's hope. Like, you don't accidentally write a perfect example of an abusive relationship. Either you did it intentionally or you yourself have experienced an abusive relationship and tought it was normal, "this is what relationships are supposed to be like". If somebody's relationship is similar to Squilf and Bramblestar, they need to break up immediately.
im not gonna lie, Bramblestar's Storm from what ive seen reads like some fanfiction im not even kidding, that "Is she always like this?" line just felt like some 14 year old wrote it
I read it, it was basically a fanfic, not even that good of one. It had a lot of weird moments that went nowhere, like Bramblestar noticing that Tigerheart and Dovewing ”Fought as if they had been raised with each other” then Bramblestar never thought of it again. Jessy was... Weird, honestly, she just came out of nowhere, was really into Clan life, then left and insisted Squirrel and Bramble should be together because they had an unbreakable bond. I didn't like it.
It makes me feel like the Erins were maybe trying to set up Squilf and Bramble as an argumentative couple that get into meaningless spats but still love each other. And that type of dynamic, if done right, is interesting and fun to watch. However, it seems like it’s a constant battle with Bramble trying to keep himself over Squilf and make arguments that seem to leave a bitter aftertaste in your mouth. When you’re in a relationship, you’re not going to be agreeable with each other all the time. Little arguments are normal and healthy. What is not healthy is this cycle of toxicity that Bramble has been able to get away with for so long cause in all stages of their life, he’s higher than her in status.
I have a cousin whose relationship is like that, little spats that are honestly hilarious and you know they still love each other. So to think that abuse is this? Honestly it makes me worried about the younger fans that read this book without knowing better..
Frankly, the bickering couple trope often mirrors abusive relationships too, at least in movies and TV shows. (Hopper and Joyce from Stranger Things are a great example.) But having a passionate couple with strong opinions who debate about their beliefs and how they should act on them? Awesome. A couple who just jokingly mocks and teases each other? Cool. I feel like that *might* be what the writing team wanted to do with the pairing (other than just wanting Fire and Tiger's kids to hook up) but instead it's just a one sided abusive relationship.
pst... you know something awful i just realized about that thing in squirrelflights hope of "lets go sneak out and run around and pretend we're young again?" it's been mentioned that firestar and sandstorm had a habit of going night hunting. yknow. *firestar*. when he was a leader. still made time for his relationship. and these were squirrelflight's parents.
If firestar always had time for sandstorm and didn’t fight all the time like brash apprentices bramblestar had NO excuse to ignore and constantly talk down to squirrelflight. Firestar treated sandstorm like an equal, his mate, the one person he could truly rely on the most and trust; Bramble treated squirrelflight like an annoyance, he used her and abused her and neglected her needs making her feel bad for having needs.
@@testerwulf3357 exactly!! and that was even with all the spottedleaf drama. i dont understand how we have sandstorm and firestar, a relationship where one of them is a leader and the other fiery and headstrong like squirrelflight, watch them have *no* pattern of malicious behavior, watch all of firestar's blunders in the relationship (mostly spottedleaf related) get treated seriously and addressed and fixed, and watch him still make time for her and respect her insights from a leadership perspective, and then have the books turn around and act like bramblestar just HAS to be this way! they never ACTUALLY fix any of his problems, and his problems were much worse than firestars "im still hung up on my dead crush" garbage.
Tbh the only reason the Erin's made them get together is purely based off that bramblestar is tigerstar's son and squirrelflight is firestar's daughter
But the fact that the whole abusive behavior was unintentional does kind of alarm me, bcs like Spottedleaf's book, they're portraying a dangerous, toxic relationship as normal or even "uwu quirky uwu" It makes me worry for the Erins and wonder if these are relationships that they have been or are currently in. It makes me wonder if they think these sorts of relationships are normal and what that could mean for them. Eh...never met your idols, I guess.
What relationship are you talking about from Spottedleaf's book? (Literally didnt even know there was a book for her so I know nothing about any of it 😭😭)
@@deedeedan8681 between Spottedpaw (little spottedleaf) and Thistleclaw. Moonkitti did a video on it. Edit: it's this one: ruclips.net/video/llxosPdKszI/видео.html
but you’re missing the point. spottedleaf’s heart was clearly a take on pedophillia, otherwise vicky wouldn’t have used it as reasoning as to why he went to the dark forest. the REAL issue with spottedleaf’s heart was *how* it resolved. spotted x thistle was intended abuse, squirrel x bramble wasn’t, but they’re both badly written.
"her mate was a kind tom" idk why but this comment about Larksong really hit me. Like she acknowledges that Bramblestar isn't kind towards her and is happy that at least her daughter isn't receiving the same abuse as she does :(
I love this. I used to not like Squilf, I was indifferent about Bramblestar, but this really opened my eyes. And after watching this, with the realization that Squilf is literally killing herself in this new arc to fight for her abuser's life is so depressing
@@honeybumblebee9274 and the fact that she was terrified of Ashfur while he was possessing Bramblestar and flinched a lot during that time yet still thought it was her own mate...
“I just want justice for my little red cat...” the way you said that broke my heart. Everything you have described here is just awful, absolutely awful. She’s been crossing paths with squirrelflight directly ever since she’s been an apprentice (maybe not even a year old), and now she’s getting old, she even said it herself. Squirrelflight has been in an abusive relationship basically her entire life. Her ENTIRE life. It has to stop, because if not, what next? Might the next confrontation actually lead to her death? This little red cat needs some tender loving care.
I absolutely hate the fact that people defend Bramblestar, as someone who has been in an abusive relationship, it’s like a slap in the face. This is a struggle for to type. My ex was severely emotionally and mentally abusive towards me throughout our relationship. He was constantly yelling at me, belittling me, made me severe friendships I had. He once punched the wall, inches close to my face. He did a lot of terrible things to me in our relationship, despite me saying no.. a few of my most favorites is when he wanted to was when he wanted to have s*x with me I told him no and proceeded to yell at me because “I was wasting his time”. Our senior Prom he told me “You look like a Mexican wh*re.” and then expected me to want to go sleep at his house that night and when I refused he yelled at me for that. One year on my birthday I was navigating him to see some Christmas lights and I told him to take the wrong turn. A simple accident. He yelled at me again. My most favorite is when he got drunk with his friends and sent pictures of my boobs to one of them and proceeded to blame me for it. He is a piece of sh*t. I know for a fact that he treated his other girlfriends like that as well. Bramblestar shows all of these signs. He’s disgusting and he would have been the same way with Jessy or any other cat he could get with. He’s toxic for anyone.
I'm glad you're finally out of that awful relationship. I hate when people get away with doing things like this or when people defend this kind of shit. I hope you find someone new and better for you. You deserve it.
ive been arguing with someone on deviantart about it for a week its kind of disgusting especially considering theyre obviously a child and severely uneducated and refuse to look at the evidence gghhgh i'm also very happy you got out of that relationship!! i hope you're doing better now!
Same here. Only thing is that my mom and I know that my father is a really, really toxic person towards everyone, not just her. She's planning on divorcing him btw
@@ix3755 I know it's not much, but I believe in you! You deserve to get out of this situation, and I trust you'll be able to find happiness where you and your mom end up
Hell 👏 Yes 👏 Girl 👏 God I love every single one of your vids but damn this hit different. Love your deep dives!!! You’ve highlighted so much that I completely missed while reading it legit blew my mind. Seeing all his actions laid out and in context is absolutely chilling. Like I got legit goosebumps midway through. Damn. Such a good video Moon. Your work is unparalleled!
It's really sad to think that they went that far to make Brambleclaw "look good." It really shows that they knew he was terrible, but found a lazy way out of it.
He's just boring, abusive, and terrible. Ive never liked him and thought he'd be better as a villain tbh. Just my opinion tho, I really liked this video on you just exposing him ฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ Edit: Dam didn't know you guys were fighting over a persons opinion. Leave them alone, its their opinion ok? Not everyone is gonna think the same as you. Unless its hurting someone, their fine.
Same lol Bramblestar's treatment of Squirrelflight is what started driving me away from the series.. He was such a contrast to Firestar as a protagonist. Definitely felt like him taking his insecurity out on Squirrelflight was unwarrented, and I'm dismayed to hear their relationship hadn't gotten much better since. :(
I definitely agree. I find it extremely difficult to try and see where people are coming from when they say Squirrelflight is worse. I can’t wrap my head around it. He could definitely be a good villain tbh and he is so boring. I don’t remember one exciting or (positive) memorable thing he did in any of the books
Bramble was such a change against firestars heroic persona who does what he thinks best. It was nice to see the opposite be worked into the story, I thought that the toxic relationship was-obviously toxic- and while I didn’t like it, it was again, a nice change to fire and sands perfect relationship, and I was waiting for their relationship to improve. It never did, I thought they’d eventually come to ties the older they got, but it only got worse and I began to hate the second arc, bramble and the whole ship together.
It's actually heartbreaking what he's done to Squirreflights confidence... She's such an amazing character and her energy has been fantastic since the start tbh, and honestly it felt like he never saw her as a full cat, ever since he PINED AFTER HER WHEN SHE WAS AN APPRENTICE, he was still looking down at her as if she was a stupid child, because apparently that's attractive to him. If he thinks she's so immature then maybe he should stop dating her, he'd be doing her a big favour, even if it hurt her to lose him at the start she'd be better off in the long run.
I hate how Warriors portrays females. It’s the only part of the series that I hate. She-cats are always paired off. They become dependent and weak. The Hunters don’t care -or don’t even realize they’re subjecting these characters to abusive relationships. I hope something changes. Edit: omg thank you guys! This is the most liked comment! Thank you guys for your comments. I agree with everyone- something needs to change! I’m going to try to make a vid about this on my channel :)
And make them extra naive to get them into a forbidden relationship and be taken by a dumb tom who don't feel empathy for others like bruh-- can't female characters have a good time for once-?
Also it’s really strange how they’re called “she-cats” and not Mollies. Like, usually in animal fiction they either call the characters she- and he-, or they use the gendered terms for the animal in question. I always found it a bit questionable how warriors mixed em like that.
@@kiekhoot2970 Isn't that only Leafpool and Crowfeather? And maybe Fallowtail and Reedfeather? Asides from that, I thought Oakheart, Tigerheartstar, and Graystripe were emphatic mates that are toms.
I loved bramblePAW’s concept in TPB because of how honorable he acted and how loyal he was to thunderclan, willing to stay and work harder to prove he was a good cat, but what they did with his character is just sad, and disappointing, and to a certain extent heartbreaking because I expected so much more. Squilf never deserved to be treated that way. I truly wish the authors wrote Bramblestar differently.
Exactly. His father/son brother/brother relationship with FireStar as an apprentice and young warrior in New Prophecy was the only point i loved him. I also enjoyed Ashfur as a character, and even though i wasn’t all “shippy shippy” with him and Squilf, i was at least hoping he would stay as a friend or support system. He was slightly overbearing and had moments where he forgot abt how independent she was , but he respected and was kind to her. He defended her against Bramble, and was a friend to her when she needed it. I hate how the Erins took him and made him a “she chose him-? I will kill her family and hold a 22 year old grudge against her children...” type villain. He was never like that before, and his whole personality led me to believe he would act a bit betrayed and upset at her choosing the man who treated her like shit over him, who was kind to her, but eventually would have forgiven her and respected her choice, no matter how he felt about it. He and Bramble were dragged through the mud simply for plot, and its disappointing
@@bleachdrinker69 Yeah, I kind of feel bad for how they treated poor Ashfur's character after Squilf chose Brambleclaw. Like you, I was kind of hoping he would stay as a friend or supporter to her, but no,,, he just,, turned against her?? It kind of seems out of character for him to just have snapped like that, but it's probably just because the Erins wanted to build up drama with the whole secret getting out. It's kind of disappointing though, they could've done it another way that would've been equally if not more suspenseful. :/
@@solseclipse I know, right? I would've LOVED a dynamic with Ash being some kind of chill uncle to the Three since Bramble is almost always busy and/or upset. Then they could still get the "they aren't my kits" drama some other way by Squirrel deciding to confide in Ash because she trusts him and somebody overhearing or something like that. The Erins kinda ruined perfectly good characters for the sake of drama, and there's little I hate more than ruined characters :
Oh god, when Sparkpelt yells at Squilf asking why she’s sticking up for Bramblestar... I’ve been in that exact situation numerous times as a kid with one parent abusive towards the other.
Something that should be notes is that Bramblestar, in multiple instances, uses a very common manipulation/abuse tactic: Love bombing. Love bombing is when a manipulator/abuser realizes that they have upset or are at risk of losing their victim, so, they shower the victim with love, attention, and promises(that usually aren’t fulfilled) in order to make them stay, in order to make them believe that they are loved, even if this affection isnt the norm for their relationship. Another tactic that could be interpreted from his actions is where the abuser gives promises, ideas, etc. to the victim, but either these promises dont have a set date or are far in the future. Whenever they reach the “calm” period in a relationship, at least one promise gets fulfilled. This leads the victim to associate the abuse they receive as just the build up to something good.
I've known about this for a long time but reading that in description made me realize my only friend is doing that to me, I didn't want to believe it since she is a victim of an ex gf doing that to her, and, well, my only friend, but it makes sense now. I'm sorry, that was kind've unrelated, I just felt like this huge gut punch just now and it hurts so now I'm rambling in the replies. Sorry again, probably just ignore this.
@@god_2.0_the_better_version Hey...just want to check up on you. I've had this same friendship and it's hard to go through. But I do believe you should distance yourself. Do you have a discord? Maybe you'd Iike to talk? I recently lost the same friend and damn it's hard. I wouldn't want really any one to go through it alone like I'm having too.
@@GeniusHamsterhe Thank you. I've since let go of the friendship. I did it all alone when I had nobody left and it was really hard, but she was 17 and I was much younger, and she uh... well, let's just say, got very weird. Not technically grooming since she's also a minor but the age gap was way too big for that stuff to be normal. I'm not doing much better now, but hey, one more toxic person gone
Agreed! They were really sweet, in the small amount of times we met him he seemed kind and like he could be protective without be smothering like ashfur.
Essay Incomming!!! I liked Bramblestar up until the end of Midnight. I really liked him during the Prophecies Begin. Also, he worked well as a carryover character to start New Prophecy w/ a familiar cat. My problem is when he rejects Tigerstar in Darkest Hour that should have been it. That right there should have been the end of his character arc; but they kept trying to pile more on top of him. IDK why they wanted to make him have the same conflict over and over again. He literally rejected his own father to his face, what more do you need? If you really want to do the whole: will he, won’t he; use Tawnypelt. In fact, swap Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt in New Prophecy. Tawnypelt would have made much more sense. She left her own clan to be with Tigerstar. A lot of cats would probably still be suspicious of her intentions. Have a conflict with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost where they are both trying to convince her to join their side. Finally, have Tawnypelt be the one who decides to save Firestar in Sunset. She probably felt as though Firestar abandon her, because he didn’t do enough to make the clan accept her. Make that scene about revenge, and not: “I want to be leader.” This way you could have Firestar actually show regret for something bad he did. Yes, I had this pre typed when you announced this video on Twitter lol. What do people think about my ideas?
That's a really interesting point of view, thank you ! In fact i found Tawnypelt much more interesting than Bramble and the regret thing with Firestar could have been cool because even if i like him- he's just a perfect hero and it is kinda annoying sometimes
I was going to write that Mistystar is the exception but- that's right she was trapped in a rotting hole and almost starved to death. Wow I never realized that... All the strong female characters (except Sandstorm (?)) either end up uncharacteristically grouchy (Mousefur) or have some sort of traumatic experience in their lives. (Mistystar, Mothwing, Leopardstar, Bluestar, Hollyleaf, Ivypool, Yellowfang, Sorreltail, Spottedleaf (though SL wasn't that independent)... the list goes on) oh and let's not forget about Willowpelt who was killed off for no apparent reason and then never gets mentioned again
Honestly looking back at the beginning of their relationship, I gotta say the age gap is honestly really weird. I mean Brambleclaw is a warrior before Firestar's even leaves for his quest, and he even though he has kits soon after that still makes Brambleclaw quite a bit older than her. I did some rough timeline calculations for a fandom project and if we kepts all the events canon that would make Brambleclaw almost 2 years old at the beginning of Midnight. Even though they don't get together until after Squirrelflight becomes a warrior, I feel like they're relationship is comparable to a 25 year old dating an 18 year old who just graduated high school. As Moonkitti pointed out, there was always and inherit power imbalance and looking back it's kind of disturbing to see. ESPECIALLY when Bramble trivializes Squirrelflight's feelings or treats her like a child.
Plot twist: Bramblestar hasn't even been possessed or anything, everyone's just starting to see how much of a toxic and abusive person he is Guys please I am joking
@@Octoweaponry I really don’t like the supervision and I’d rather Retcon it to say that bramble star was possessed of the time and say this was all Ashfur actions If you’re going to make Ashfur a villain go all the way
Moon ILYSM for always taking the time to put this much work into contextualizing things, I wont repeat anything you said because I know we share the exact same opinion but I do think I have a theory about the author’s attempt with these two. I remember when OOTS was running and the fact they were exes was like, popular you know? I had friends and saw discussion about how this was sad but ultimately the best place for these two...no one really wanted them back together or thought that they should be, and I think on some level the authors feel that way too. However, the tossing of the “barren” storyline and just putting them back together tells me this was some mandate centered around Squirrelflight the character needing children (Alderheart and Sparkpelt) run the story along... which just doesnt make sense to me considering we had Dovewing, Ivypool and Lionblaze as options but I digress. I feel like Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw being together is just a state of the story not wanting to remove the status quo and wanting both of Firestar’s daughters to have protag bait, so instead of developing Squirrelflights relationship with someone new they do this. It especially sucks because I can *feel* how much resentment the writers have for these two being together, its almost like they want us to be as upset and frustrated about it as they are, and its because of that I literally have no idea where they could want to take them from here especially since Our Guy is busy being a Zombie 🙂
A note that the Erins very well likely do have resentment for it. They've lost more and more control over the series over the years, and nowadays have to work with plots given to them by the editors at HarperCollins. The reason it reads like the writer hates the relationship is because they *hate the relationship and absolutely don't want it there*.
@@ssupermarlo Bluestar: “Firestar? Where are you going?” Firestar: “I’m going to go tell cat hitler’s son that there is a prophecy where he must eat a pile of dirt and choke to death. HE DISRESPECTED MAH BABYY THAT MEANS DEATH”
@@MahkRonAKash He and Sandstorm loved eachother, he defended Squirrelflight and Leafpool against Lionblaze and Jayfeather, he made Sandstorm go to Jayfeather’s den when she was sick cuz he cared about her. The reason you don’t see much development is cuz he’s not the main focus anymore ig
@@MahkRonAKash The reason he lashed out at them was because he was told that the two would destroy the clans, this sounded like a bad thing so he tried to keep them apart. This is the only bad treatment we see given to Squirrelpaw. As I said he defended Leafpool’s secret and in his super edition he is given the chance to choose Sandstorm or Spottedleaf and he chooses Sandstorm. When Leafpool told Firestar of the bramble vision he agrees saying Brambleclaw would make a good deputy, just because he isn’t given much development with his children and lashes out at his daughter ONCE does not mean he’s a horrible father
@@MahkRonAKash He tried to keep the clans alive by separating them two bc that’s the msg Cinderpelt got from StarClan. Dude I only see you hating on him even tho there are many arguments against it wtf
This video essay is incredible. As someone who isn’t caught up with current warriors I’m so disappointed to see Bramblestar never got better but I’m also surprised I never noticed how awful he was from the beginning. I think it’s interesting how “unintentionally” their relationship mirrors abuse cycles you see happening with people irl. It really makes me wonder how much of their personal experiences the Erin’s put into that but i don’t think we will ever really know. Personally I believe that there has to be some parallels to the women who’ve worked on the books own experiences with men, I mean a lot of the toms straight up seem to deal with toxic masculinity even though they’re cats and it doesn’t make sense for them to act that way! When you’re used to dealing with men acting abusive and manipulative in life and don’t realize how wrong it is I imagine it can leak into your stories as an author and you might not even know it. I really wish that Bramblestar’s actions got more repercussions because I fear the ways in which it might normalize abuse to their readers.
Ya’ll are right. Squilf and Bramble’s relationship is toxic and it seems to be taking a toll on both of their mental health. I know Bramble is mostly in the wrong.. But I’m gonna be honest- I still feel bad for him. I think the reason Bramble star has some abusive behavior is because of his past. I ain’t excusing his actions but I still think thats the reason he acts the way he does towards her. His father was emotionally and physically abusive. He was manipulative and controlling. The way Hawk treated him was also emotionally abusive. I’m also fairly certain that his parents where in a abusive relationship. ( I’m not sure this is entirely accurate but there’s a lot of evidence proving this theory true. Considering how treated his kin I wouldn’t be shocked either. ) I feel like the reason he wants to be in control so bad is because every situation in his life has been out of his control. His whole clan hated him for something he didn’t even do anything. Tawny left Tc. Hawk tried killing him. Squilf lied to him.. the list could go on. I feel like his desire for control has progressively gotten worse as he’s gained more power. He feels as though the more power he has, the more control and authority he has over others. This mindset is extremely toxic but you know where he’s learned this behavior from? His dad. It’s obvious Bramble has trust issues. His own brother tried killing him. His sister left. Cats have constantly betrayed him and broken his trust throughout his lifetime it’s only reasonable that would effect him negatively on top of everything else that’s happened to him. I think he’s also insecure because Squilf switched up on him with Ash. He already has the mindset that he’s not good enough so due to Squilf actions I think that made his insecurities about himself worsen. People who tend to have trust issues are more controlling with their partners which is what we see in Bramble’s relationship because he’s scared of being betrayed and hurt again. ( I’d just like to say something, those of you saying they spilt up for the period of time she was with another cat- that isn’t actually accurate. If they where “dating” there was never any form of conformation from either party that they had split up. Which is why this situation in particular is mostly Squilf’s fault. If she she wanted to explore her options she should have communicated that with him. But she didn’t do that. She had been flirting with Bramble previously and suggesting she was interested in him in a romantic manner. It was clear she did have feelings for him and it was a mutual feeling between the both of them. They got into argument over something petty and cut off ties with each other for a while.Young couples fight. It’s normal to have disagreements. It’s only bad when it takes place frequently or if it gets to point where it’s straight up toxic. Sometimes it’s best to take a break but if your going to start seeing someone else you need to tell the other party.Squilf obviously was interested in Ash they hinted at being together multiple times. Not once to did she confirm with Bramble that she was no longer interested in him. I could be wrong but the fact still stands- she never said they where over when she was with another cat. So technically she IS in the wrong. Also I’ve seen people say Bramble treated her terribly back then too. Well- that isn’t exactly true either. She gave him an attitude and he gave it back too her. Is it toxic to be fighting all the time? Yes. But it isn’t solely Bramble’s fault. They both tested each other’s patience.) I know what Squilf did was right at the moment but she literally lied about his children actually being his. That’s beyond messed up. That definitely contributed to why he no longer trust her. Though he did give verbal conformation afterwards that he forgave her I don’t think he genuinely meant it. He was and still is very hurt. Why wouldn’t he be? I believe he did genuinely want her to have his kits when they where younger. He does still love her but he’s hurt. Despite later on her having his actual kits, I don’t think it was the same as before. He loved Holly, Jay and Lion like they where his own children. ( And then to have the cats who he raised as his own hate him for something he couldn’t control? No wonder he’s becoming so bitter and cold.) If ya’ll remember when Squilf came back with them he was thrilled because he really did want to start a family with her. And to find out they where not actually his must’ve hurt like hell. Even though he’s said he forgives her, I highly doubt he means it. He’s just trying to make her happy. He’s suppressing his own feelings and how feels so he can satisfy his mate. He doesn’t realize this isn’t what she wants but he dismisses it. I’m fairly certain he doesn’t want kits because of Holly leaf’s death. He loved her like a daughter. It’s a parents worst fear to loose their child and I think that truly hurt him when she passed. Of course the argument could be made that Squilf also lost children before but she isn’t opposed to having more kits. But the truth is- everyone deals with grief differently for others it takes way longer to heal. I think he’s terrified of loosing Squilf. He’d do anything to please his her. That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if they where to have another litter. He’s lost so many other cats he’s loved before which is why he wants to be in control. He lost his mother when he was young. It’s obvious he didn’t want to kill Hawk either. He loved his brother. So I think that his death really broke him. He’s scared of loosing her but he doesn’t realize she doesn’t feel like he really loves her. He thinks he can prevent the deaths of his loved ones by being in control. But sadly that ain’t how life work. That’s why there’s a relapse in their relationship where Bramble and Squilf get along for awhile. Because he’s scared to loose her. With that being said I think He doesn’t realize that the way he’s treating his mate is terrible. Why? Because this is the way his father treated him. That doesn’t justify it but if an abuse victim isn’t taught that their abusers actions where wrong they’ll most likely go around doing the same thing to someone else because no ones told them, “Hey this isn’t ok, someone shouldn’t have treated you like this-“ and so on. Bramble treats Squilf the same way his father treated him. Don’t believe me? He punishes her the same way his father did when she disagrees with him by degrading her opinion and emotionally abusing her. His father physically abused him. Something I haven’t seen him do to Squilf (But I could be wrong). This also goes hand-in-hand with the “maybe I’m the one who’s wrong-“ mentality Bramble guilt trips and belittles Squilf just like his father did to him. These are all learned behaviors. We’ve seen him do the same things Tiger did to him to Squilf. Bramble isn’t a bad cat. He just has a lot of bottled up emotions, insecurities and past trauma he hasn’t dealt with. Which can be really effect some one badly if their trauma isn’t dealt with. He and Squilf honestly just need to learn how to communicate. Your relationship gonna suck if you can’t discuss how your feeling with your partner. Personally I think they should break up. Their relationship is only getting worse. They can split up and still love each other. Or at least go on a break. It’s just toxic that their still mates at this point.They need to work on themselves. Bramble needs a chance to heal and so does Squilf. She don’t need that toxicity in her life. I know that someone’s probably going to say I’m saying this because I dislike Squilf. But the truth is I really don’t. And I’m not denying that she’s in an incredibly toxic and unhealthy relationship. In fact I agree that in terms of who treats the other worst it’s definitely Bramble. However I don’t think he realizes that he’s hurting her. She hasn’t communicated that she feels like she’s being treated unfairly. And I think Bramble thinks his behavior is ok because of how he was treated by his father. He hasn’t been consulted and told that the way he was treated was terrible and that he shouldn’t treat anybody else like the way he was so he thinks his actions are ok. Sorry this was a long rant!! 😅 I just wanted to share my opinion.
squirrelflight: *gets a new boyfriend* brambleclaw: wow! i should go harass them and continue to try to guilt trip my ex for not liking my evil brother!
Dear Squilf, 1. Dig big hole. Very deep. 2. Put deathberries into Bramble's fresh kill 3. Put dead body into hole before he revives. Bury it. Let him suffocate eight times 4. Go to moonstone and take over clan. Yay SquirrelStar! 5. Bramblestar goes to dark forest hurray the end
Are you trying to repeat brokentail's death all over again? We already know how that turned out when yellowfang made her own son eat deathberries so he can die poisoned instead of fighting to the death.
I have never liked brambleclaw, I was so confused why everyone liked him since he was just so horrible to everyone. Bramblestar made him so unbearable I physically cannot stand him
Bluestar: "If you have half the courage and loyalty of Firestar, you will be a fine leader of ThunderClan." Bramblestar: _Proceeds to abuse his wife and attack a queen and her newborn kits_ Me: _blink blink_ Ooookaaaaayy yeah sorry Bluestar nope
The worst part is that the writers didn't even intend for this to happen. They genuinely thought they were making Bramblestar sympathetic and likable. Oof.
Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight like a possession. When she's with him, he doesn't care of her. When there is a rival to him, he's extremely jealous and insults Squirrelflight.
God, The Squirrelfight-Leafpool-kits thing is why I put down the books. Squirrelflight and Brambstar are Lionblaze's, Jayfeather's, and Hollyleaf's parents. Leafpool and Crowfeather are not. If you go to an orphanage and adopt a kid, you and your partner are the kid's parents. It doesn't matter if the couple who made him or her are alive. If you tell the kid they're adopted at a young age/birth, that doesn't mean they're unloved or truly the real kid of those parents. Jesus Christ, this hurt me and ticked me off so much when characters I really liked started acting like adoption is just a _lie!_ It's not! Squirrel and Bramble loved Lion, Jay, and Holly. Leaf might have felt some kinship toward them, but she was their _aunt_ not their _mom._ Crowfeather certainly felt no such kinship. If a kid is made from a mother and a sperm donor, is their mother's husband not their dad? Is it some guy halfway across the world they've never even met? If a baby gets thrown in a dumpster, are the people that adopt them not their parents, but rather the people who put him there? If the kid's parents died and the kid was later adopted into a new home, are those adopted parents just fake? What about if a gay or lesbian couple adopted a child? Would that child still be the child of whoever made him, or would his dads or moms be his parents? Do you have to be biologically directly related to two older figures to consider them your parents? If one parent is gone for some reason and the other remarries, is that step-mom or step-dad not their mother or father?
Warriorcats in general seems to have a huge fascination with blood and lineage, and it really ticked me off seeing Bramblestar and the original Three act like their relationship was fake and a lie just because it turned out he wasn’t their biological father. You’re adopted? Oh, the horror, it’s not like your adoptive parents were the ones who raised you and fostered a relationship with you or anything. If the Erins are so obsessed with blood, then the least they could’ve done is google the actual phrase that got shortened to “Blood is thicker than water”.
@@Theartisticyoshi "I missed it when you were my dad." BRO HE'S STILL YOUR DAD. I mean, they also turned Ashfur into a psychopath, so I'm chalking it up to plot reasons. Or maybe they hate adoption. Who knows?
@@Theartisticyoshi I can't really blame the three for reacting that way. They were raised in a world where your worth is defined by your bloodline, after all, despite Fire's best effort to change this. As for Bramble, he was not trusted when he was younger, and so learning that he was not trusted with that secret understandably hurts, but blaming Squirrel for something that was essentiallly Star clan's decision is what's unfair.
This obsession with blood relationships is unfortunately a common belief among baby boomers and even some gen X even in the US. It's even more common in Europe it seems.
i was talking to my friend about how bad bramblestar is, and she was just like "well i don't hate him yet because he hasn't attacked her or anything so it isn't that bad" and believe me i rephrased atleast 3 whole websites about emotional abuse to her and most likely got her really concerned on how i knew so much stuff about this so that was a fun 2 hours
"I just want justice for my little red cat." I haven't been active in this fandom for about a decade, and I skim TVTropes and the Warriors wiki to know what the heck has happened in the books I haven't read, but I just might write an AU in which Squirrelflight gets justice.
honestly this is why i liked ashfur as a good character in these books before the whole fire business, but this does make me think that ashfur may have been turned into a villain solely to make brambleclaw look like the better choice...which is...hmm
@@brinana3629 nahh let's not lie Ashford was a good dude a bro but the authors made him a villain for no reason I feel like it could have been better if they made a book where we see ash fur grow and forget about squirrel flight instead of making him a jealous prick just to have bramble look good
@@brinana3629 that's the thing the way ash fur transitioned didnt make any sense at all that's why I think it was all just to make bramble look good think about it from a loving guys to a arsonist and we didnt get much reason to why he behaved this way our his true taught process we just got a stupid love triangle that turned one good character into a villain why? Cause the tigerXfire goodXbad
@@brinana3629 That's not true at all, Ashfur was basically a non-character before his fling with Squirrelflight. He didn't show any signs of being a nut at any other point in his life, and he had been an adult cat for a while. He was good to Squirrelflight, a bit overprotective but that's something that people can work on in a relationship and in the end its not really hurting Squirrelflight unlike Bramblestar's abusive behavior always belittling and lashing out at her and then not talking for days. I agree with the op, they basically changed him just to make Bramblestar look like a better mate. As a writer, it didn't fool me. If Ashfur is toxic than Bramblestar is fucking nuclear. If they didn't want to ship Bramble and Squirrel so hard, Ashfur would have ended up being written as a good mate. But they'd rather the conflict of them always bickering to keep things interesting.
@@tiiny_2576 I honestly disregard anything kittypet-prejudice related because that's a similar view of most clan cats. Not every cat in Thunderclan loved Firestar, nor Cloudtail, Millie, Daisy, ect. There's always been a lot of tension about outsiders and its persistently reinforced in the code and in other clans. Its hard to stomp out those unnecessary flames when they are all around and everyone except Thunderclan isn't so willing to take in kittypets and loners. If you lived in a society where everyone hated pretzels, wouldn't even look at them, three whole cities' worth of people and your group is the only one that will eat pretzels sometimes, that can make you pretty confused. Are pretzels bad or are they good? Most of society says they're bad. You might think 'Pretzels are bad, except for the ones I like to eat" and keep straddling that fence like some cats in Thunderclan still do. Kittypets and loners are never welcomed with open arms, there's always suspicion or rejection from some clan members. Its sad that clan cats are so discriminatory but its not just a racism-equivalent, outsiders really do pose a threat. Kittypets don't typically come in with skills to survive and need to be taught, while in the mean time they are still taking up resources. Loners and rogues, on the other hand, well, I need only look to what happened with Scourge and forward. Loners and rogues cause more trouble than the clans do between themselves it seems. All in all, there are a lot of reasons to not be fond of outsiders from several angles.
@@tiiny_2576 But I actually do love Brackenfur cx he seems like a really chill guy and very kind-hearted. He's still one of my top faves and probably always will be.
I never cared about Brambestar. I didn't even care when reading his POV in A New Prophecy. I honestly don't even remember what he did that was good in that arc. And I always thought he was so mean to Squirrelflight when he found out she lied to him. He's a big jerk! And when I read Bramblestar's Storm, he went from a character I didn't care about, to one of the warrior cats I HATE. He truly is the worst.
Bruh in the second series when I was new to the books I literally just SKIPPED his chapters and skipped to Leafpaw’s (I think it was her) chapters. Like, they were incredibly boring, honestly.
Yeah this is why I stopped reading warriors. Once Brambleclaw/star became the protagonist I felt the story went from a classic hero tale to a horrible inconsistent mess with now ableism, forced religions, normalized abusive relationships, sexism and no choice in a persons destiny. what ever happened to simple character archs and plots that still teach a lesson without forcing it down your throat
This is why when I revisit Warriors I don't go any further past A Vision Of Shadows. The series has gotten way to complicated going further than just Clan cats living under the guidance of their ancestors it's now going in all different directions like POSESSION?! Have they really run out of ideas that they now dig in to all this supernatural stuff why can't it just be simple anymore with a character vs a villain with no big plot holes left
After Kate Cary very recently tried to say that Squrriel and Bramble are on the save level. He's not capable of abuse and to honorable. I finally sat down to watch this, and I don't understand how anyone can't see the abuse in this book. Meant or not trying to deny it just makes things worst. Its really so awful to see how often this comes up The video was amazing and so thought out. Thank you for making this Moonkitti
Because she’s running something else and other people are basically going around and screwing with it for their own reasons are because I think the book will sell better whatever she can’t even name characters without them changing it on her Twigbranch was supposed to be Twigshade But they changed it on her
If Kate Cary disagrees with this argument, the someone need to show her this video & give a smack of common sense, make her & the other authors see what they wrote about an abusive relationship that they let it go on for years.
I wish I could just re write all of these books because they tricked us into thinking Bramblestar would be good and he wasn't. Now everyone is saying they don't like Squirrelflight. If you're going to say she's just as bad as him- can you at least write it into the book? What on earth Erin Hunter Team!
Timestamps:
Section One | Introduction
0:01
Section Two | In "The New Prophecy"
4:50
Section Three | In "Leafpool's Wish"
14:31
Section Four | In "Power of Three"
16:38
Section Five | In "Omen of the Stars"
18:14
Section Six | In "Bramblestar's Storm"
24:18
Section Seven | In "A Vision of Shadows"
31:49
Section Eight | In "Squirrelflight's Hope"
32:34
Section Nine | Conclusion
1:00:38
Thank
Thank
Thank
Thx so much you deserve the pin
Ocelot
26:13
and 1:04:17
*I’s so weird seeing Ashfur without blond hair*
WHERE ARE HIS LUCIOUS LOCKS-
It's a stunt double
He’s a bald boi
We now see blonde haired Ashfur as canon XD
@@kaleaandsunny7819 yeah XD
I’m pretty sure the erins just wanted Tigerstars son and firestars daughter to get together, honestly.
They wanted a different type of forbidden love, between good and evil this time. 😂
Like Kovu and Kiara, except that relationship was more healthy
@UwU rawr Interesting am I right Mothpool would’ve been so much better if they wanted to do Firestar’s kid x Tigerstar’s kid! They actually have a healthy relationship with realistically developed chemistry.
So..... indirect FireTiger.
i know, like tawnypelt is RIGHT there
Never noticed this before but Squirrelflight being so desperate for kits could possibly be linked to how she was told she would be barren? She worries about getting older and not being able to have kits, which was a lie she had been forced to accept as truth for years. She fears going back to that, or that lie becoming true with age.
woah
"woah" got me 66 likes what
I also found it to be her trying to fix their relationship. When couples are fighting and they don't know how or can't talk it out, they can try to get pregnant to try and fix the problem, even though it often ends in a larger divide than the original one.
@@susiepilled YES! Their own cat gods LIED TO HER just so they could get what they want! But somehow she’s just as bad as Bramblebutt or Finleap? 😒
@@xRaiofSunshine >:(
another thing:
in leafpool's wish, yellowfang tells her shes never going to be able to have kits (which was a lie but she didn't know that at the time making her lean more towards actually adopting the three)
so that's a pretty big factor
Squirrelflight is the poster child for domestic abuse. As a kit and apprentice, she was energetic, adventurous, bold, enthusiastic, and independent. By the end of Squirrelflight's Hope, she is none of those things. It's like Bramblestar sucked the life out of her
Well said
Sad...
Poor Squirrelflight :(
Why did Erin Hunter Team have to ruin all potential Bramblestar had? They made it sound like he would be a good cat and then he wasn't! I don't like it! >n
@@Lilybelle-vr3ho One of the authors even mentioned how Bramblestar was one of their favorite characters
Bramblestar to Jessy: I’ll never forget you
Jessy: *is never mentioned again*
Also Squilf and Shrewpaw were best friends but like- she never even thought of him after he died-?
I had no idea that Jessy was supposed to be a romantic interest for Bramblestar so at the end of the book I was like "Where is this coming from...?"
thanks for ruining my favorite character i guess.. i thought he seemed pretty good and i thought that the fighting was for drama and so people would be intrested in reading it
@@Lost_Catguythat’s a little dramatic- but im not gonna be rude to you about it. also you could’ve just simply not watched the video, its titled “Bramblestar is Worse”, what did you think it was going to be?/notmad
@@Lost_Catguyok? 😭
“Being annoying is never an excuse to treat someone badly” EXACTLY. THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING FACTS. I’m so glad I’m not the only one that thinks Bramblestar is worse
Edit: thank you guys for the likes and sharing your experiences, im so sorry that you guys have had tough times too ;; you guys deserve to be happy
yesh u r not the only one for I hate the way Bramble acts
@@dr.fattyzaddy5590 Same
Always have
((After he becomes a warrior))
I agree!!
It’s so annoying as I’m seen as annoying to most neurotypicals but it’s just because I’m autistic and they don’t understand it, and then I’m treated badly or bullied because they perceive me in an annoying or strange light
It’s unbelievably frustrating to know people use annoyness as an excuse for abusive behaviour
@@elliotsweet2046 yesh i FULLY agree
Jesus tapdancing Christ, did Starclan really put her on *trial* for doing the thing that they lied and manipulated and forced her into doing?
Wow I just realized that 😒
Yeah :/
honestly im pretty sure that, on the darker side of things, starclan might actually be really corrupt? i play with the idea that it's actually some kind of cult that all the clans are tied into
I haaaaaaaate it. How are they going to lie and manipulate her into doing something and then try to punish her? I wish Squirrelflight had called them out on it.
@@sillygoosegio Honestly, I don’t even think Starclan being corrupt is an idea as much as it is fully canon. We have enough moments throughout the book series showing Starclan doing some very morally questionable things, especially the fact that cats only get sent to the Dark Forest if they defy Starclan or support the Dark Forest in life, not if you do anything actually atrocious (looking at you, Ashfur). What really concerns me is the fact that these clans have been following the same societal structure for so many generations with no addressing the flawed parts of their culture nor their code because “dead ancestors’ word is law, and if you disagree, prepare to be chastised”. The clans truly are a cult.
one of the worst parts of bramblestar being abusive, in my opinion, is that they could have DONE something with him. they could have made him be a great character. and it would mean something because he was tigerstar’s son. i would have loved a book about bramblestar proving his worth, proving that he could be more than just the son of an evil cat, but he never really did
Bramblestar is horrible, but it's either that or bad writing. He has so much wasted potential
@@JlMMOTHY i do agree that branblestar is horrible and i really wish they did something good with him
I mean.................
Didn't the new prophecy do that?
@@Bilbz1 tried and failed cause bramblepaw did stand up to his father in tpb
I agree! TnT I loved the idea of his potential soo much but then they just made him so BAD! I cry
As someone who was in a real toxic relationship, Squirrelflight is 100% justified in fighting back even if it sounds harsh. A big a indicator someone you love is in a toxic relationship is they have sudden 'anger issues' for lack of better term. We get so frustrated of having to just deal with it and our concerns not being taken seriously by our abuser that we lash out at either them or other people, something I did a lot back then and most abusers take this as an oppertunity to gaslight the victim in front of complete strangers. ie - the abuser might say something, or even film it saying "Look how she's yelling at me guys? She's totally crazy!" while they act calm and collected. This is also why a lot of victims struggle with denial and think they are the real toxic person instead.
+Zack Victor - Brilliant point, dude. I'm in the same boat (except with my sole parental figure rather than a romantic one), and often said parent will use similar tactics presented in this video. My sister (unlike me, who 90% just sits there and takes it) would lash out. Of course, our parent used this as a means of justifying (well, *another* justification) for her treatment of us. People get sick of being treated cruelly and they hit a breaking point. Reacting angrily to mistreatment is an understandable thing.
Also worth noting, once my sister moved out, her seemingly 'irrational' anger fell away almost immediately.
As someone who has been in a very manipulative and toxic relationship, the tactic that most abusers use is to make you feel weak and stupid.
@Grace Selvanayagam you should tell someone you can trust about that
@Grace Selvanayagam my dad did that to my mum, and when he divorced her he started doing it to me. Tell the school therapist before it hits you or hurts your mom too much
Yeah, I hate when the victim's anger at their abuser is taken out of context and people paint THEM as the abusive one because their "yelling looks scary" or something
"Don't you love me anymore?"
Of course squilf is worried about this - Bramblestar is dismissing her and not spending time with her. Something he's done repeatedly in the past as a manipulation tactic to show her he doesn't love or need her. He is constantly using ambivalence and mocking her and her wants and needs to show her he's in control and she's just a child he needs to humor, who doesn't know best. She's terrified, because she's gone through this before. She feels like he doesn't love her, but he's purposely made her feel that way. I can't blame her for reacting to previous repeated behaviors and recognizing the similarities here.
Okay, this is honestly a great comment, but s q u i l f
s q u i l f
S q u i l f
Omg, guys, that wasn't even the point of the post
This makes so much sense
I haven’t read the newest books yet but holy shit it makes me so sad to have squirrelflight go through all that bs with ashfur only to have her end up with an abusive pos.
I’m scared to read the new books seeing that I haven’t seen all this toxic bs from the past books. Then again, I was just a teen, so...
Omg katzun you read warriors?!
Omg, Kat. :0
👁️👄👁️💧🙏
Omg Katzun Ur videos!!!
When Bramblestar compares Squirrelflight to a kit or apprentice, this reminded me of an abuse tactic where the abuser treats their victim as a child so they can only depend on them and their judgement.
Infantilizing
@@nicki8813*wat*
How the actual hell did the Erins accidentally write about domestic abuse so realistically?
No clue
have been in one and thought it was normal?
+oh no
Well in that case, that's pretty concerning.
@@ohno5866 that’s... worrying
@@ohno5866 oh no.
I know warriors isn't realistic, like, at all, *BUT* here's a fun fact: Unspayed females cats *never* experience menopause, as humans do, which means Squirrel could be an elder and still have kittens. In fact, the oldest cat on record (that I am currently aware of) was thirty years old when she had her final litter.
Brightheart was like in the elders den then she got pregnant for the 2 time
@@tigerdiamond2486 No? Brightheart only recently moved to the elders den.
@@noytc i know but she was old af then she had her second litter
@@tigerdiamond2486 oh my god im so behind on warriors. brightheart had another litter????
@@emma-rb4sp yeah ambermoon,dewnose and snowbush
I genuinely felt sick when she said "Why did I ever want kits?" after she came back.
same, same
Why did they make ashfur kittypet xenophobic,,,, when cloudtail,,,, a literal kittypet,,,,,, was raised along side him as his littermate????? That makes literally no sense wtf
Honestly the Erins just wanted to make their golden child Bramblebitch look like a savior in comparison to Ashfur
@@seineevee BRAMBLEBITCH LMAO, YES
@@seineevee The Erins: **write Ashfur to not like kittypets to show he is not a good guy**
**write Brambleclaw as the hero even though he went to karate class in hell with Cat Hitler as his Sensei**
@@Weirdanimalboy OH MY GOD CAT HITLER AHAHAHA
@@seineevee FACTS!!!!!!
Moonkitti exposed Bramblestar so hard she singlehandedly caused warrior cats to trend on tumblr, and I'm enjoying every second of it
whaaaat the warriors fandom is on tumblr??? do you know of any good tags I can look through? Cant believe I never knew
"Someone doesn't deserve to be treated badly because they're annoying."
As someone who relates to Squirrelflight a lot, this line really got me. I was never a victim of abuse, but I was bullied in school because I was the weird and annoying kid. I kinda saw myself in Squirrelpaw/flight while reading TNP, so it always makes me kinda sad when people make the case she deserves her treatment just for being irritating.
Yes I’m so sorry for you and I honestly hope that
(Spoilers for the broken code)
Bramblestar doesn’t get his body back and goes to starclan so squirrelflight can be leader like she always dreamed of, and have a mate who loves her and another litter of kits before she dies. Reading squirrelflights hope just broke my heart
Honestly, I've always related to Squirrelflight too, as I've always been labelled as too 'stubborn' or 'annoying', so it's kind of sad that the Erins stuck her in an abusive relationship and made Bramble treat her badly for being 'annoying'. Also, someone really needs to say that line to my little brother smh bc he always calls me annoying and treats me terribly for it. :/
@@saturniiiidae YES
WE WANT SQUIRRELSTAR
GIVE US WHAT WE WANT E R I N S
@@solseclipse - YES YES SQUIRRELSTAR
also ugh I can totally relate to squirrelflight being pushed around for being stubborn and annoying when she’s only trying to do what she believes is right, my siblings are rude to me about that too :/
id like to say that bullying IS abuse. abuse doesn't have to be from family or people you're in a relationship with; continuous, relentless tearing down of another person is abusive behaviour and we need to destroy the idea that bullying is somehow lesser than that
“Just because someone annoys you, doesn’t mean you get to treat them badly” a beginners guide to understanding abusive relationships. THANK YOU
"I skipped the bit where she went on trial for her crimes in life. You're welcome."
I got curious and looked it up and okay, no, nope, we gotta talk about that bullsh*t
"The two wake up in StarClan's territory and are greeted by Larksong, who tells them that they aren't quite dead yet, but their lives are hanging in the balance. Firestar comes along and warns them that they may not be allowed to stay in StarClan due to their deception about Leafpool's kits all those years ago. A trial is held, with Bluestar, Yellowfang, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Moth Flight, and Littlecloud as the judges: Squirrelflight and Leafpool have to explain their reasoning behind breaking the warrior code. Ultimately they decide that Squirrelflight and Leafpool have done more good than harm, and that if they die now, they'll be welcome in StarClan."
StarClan actually puts Squirrelflight and Leafpool on trial for something THEY played a part in? For real?!! StarClan was the one who told Leafpool to follow her heart when she asked for guidance on whether she should run away with Crowfeather. They were the ones who gently informed her that she was pregnant, only to LIE to Squirrelflight and tell her that she was barren so that she'd be more inclined to claim Leafpool's kits and they're feckin' PUT ON TRIAL FOR ALL THIS?? F*ck off, for real, I'm so pissed about this.
ASHFUR GETS TO GO TO HEAVEN AFTER NEARLY MURDERING AN ENTIRE FAMILY BUT SQUIRRELFLIGHT AND LEAFPOOL'S TICKETS TO HEAVEN HAVE TO BE DEBATED. OKAY THEN. OKAY.
Leafpool deserved better
Starclan is full of hypocrites smh
StarClan doesn't deserve the amount of power they hold. They cause WAY more harm than good.
@@Felisidae My heart wants an uprising against StarClan but my mind suspects that HarperCollins will never have the guts v_v
@@LunamFlore I want there to be a HUGE plot twist where starclan is actually being controlled by one cat to do all these horrible things. Cause some of the things they do make no sense, unless there was actually an evil cat behind it all.
OH
MY
STARCLAN!!!
Moon, this was a f*cking MASTERPIECE! You broke all of this down so so well and when you really see it all laid out from beginning to end it really just puts everything into perspective. Also, wonderful job with all the art on this video. This video belongs in the Warrior Cats Hall of Fame...Just *chef kiss*
Thank you Tennelle ;_;
Glad to hear all the warrior cat tubers are banding together to hate on stinky Bramble boy
@@WORMPRIEST *Yes*
Yes its also good while doing something and listening to this
I agree, you always do so well with these warriors discussion videos, you never cease to impress me and, in my opinion, you are 100% right! Have a nice day
I'd like to add the fact that (SPOILERS)
In the broken code, possessed Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight badly. He guilt trips her, abuses her both physically and mentally, and abandons her. Now this behavior can be excused on the fact that it isnt really Bramblestar. But what unsettled me the most when reading was how the clan responded. A large portion of the clan didn't seem too bothered about it for a while. Why? Because this has become a normal Bramblestar thing. Nobody figured out that Bramblestar was possessed because this new cat is acting a lot like Bramblestar.
I have read all four books so far btw.
What book did that occur in? I'm very curious.
@@dergs_and_stuff The Silent Thaw, with a bit of this in Veil of Shadows as well.
*O h n o*
He was already treating her badly before he got possessed in that book
Literally nobody started noticing something was off until he stopped bathing and going on patrol
The fact that he’s “punishing” her makes me beyond angry. She’s just his little object who stepped out of line and needs to be taught to never NEVER do it again.
Yeah I hate him
Hes treating her like a child and it pisses me off
petition to kick his ghost
@@elm-ishh5718 yessss eject himmmmmm
@@elm-ishh5718 i’ll sign.
Im really alarmed at the relationships in the warrior cats series, either the authors purposely wrote abusive relationships OR they genuinely think those relationships are normal
BramblexSquirrilflight is one of the erin's favorite ship
stares at spottedleaf..........................................
@@Romanticoutlaw firepaw was too young for spottedleaf
@@tinyalie1 oh yes absolutely, I didn't mean that to hold her up as an example of a good relationship but I can see how it read like that. What I meant was me awkwardly looking at how horrible an example of a relationship she had in her solo arc. That whole situation was... yikes
@@Romanticoutlaw no im agreeing i cant believe they had that string of relationships, thistleclaw pedophile then spottedleaf does the same to firepaw but oh its ok because shes sweet, never mind that shes a dead medicine cat, THEN her ghost gets between firestar and sandstorm just YIIIIKKKESS THEY PORTRAYED IT AS ROMANTIC
Someone: Wait bramblestar was manipulative?
Moonkitti: "gun loading sounds" Always has been.
Signs of a moonkitti attack
Sign 1
Moonkitti posts video about how bad you are
Sign 2
The video is a hour long
Sign 3
Moonkittis making valid points
Sign 4
Hearing a gun load
@@Owenbot3000 LOL
lol
She even had her actual cat in the background meowing his agreement of what she said
@@ChonkyCats The fact that your name is ChonkyCats makes this comment even funnier 😂
Bramblestar is the worse: the documentary
xD
Lol
Completely true 🤣
Pfft-
So true tho
“Being annoying doesn’t mean you need to treat someone badly”
me: shows my younger brother
him: I’ll just pretend I didn’t see that
How nice it would've been only having one brother
Shows my OLDER sister
Her: imma pretend I didn't see that
(2 years older)
Huh I feel you
My friend : I'll still smack you
Looks at my older brother.
Something that bothers me is that Squirrelflight kinda CAN'T leave Bramblestar. They're in the same Clan, they're always going to be around each other. She literally can't escape and I can't even begin to imagine how damn awful that must feel. And Squirrelflight isn't the type of cat to just runaway to a different Clan or vecome a kittypet, there is no escape for her.
Finally someone else says this! Even if she broke up or rejected him, she’s have to deal with his anger over that every single day, not to mention when they started being romantic he was her deputy, and now he’s her leader and she’s his deputy. He’s ALWAYS in a position of power above her.
He also threatens to remove her from her position as deputy when she disagrees with him. Imagine what he’d do if she left him. Yikes
@@jittercritter Honestly, that stuff makes my insides churn with anxiety for her.
She wanted to be with him. There is some points in the book that they show true mateship and happiness to each other. Like when they escaped the dark forest after being taken over by ashfur, everyone focuses on the bad points when they don’t know there is other stuff off book, if she hated or was scared of him she wouldn’t try to get back with him and miss him when they were broken up.
@@mypsquuylst do you know how abusive relationships work?
I agree.
This is a warning sign that Squirrelflight is in a bad relationship
Were have I heard that before🤔🤔
was waiting for that one
I was looking for this comment
_Like father like son_
@@axelf9947 Damn I was about to say that
Anyone else remember when Stormfur had a mini crush on her? ;-; I think she would have been better off with him, Ashfur AND Bramblestar are bad for her.
Ashfur is too psychotic, but also wanted to hold her down back. Before the fire scene. He wanted to calm her, to tame her. Bramblestar is abusive and a massive d*ck to her.
Stormfur and Brook is cute but like, I'd rather her and Stormfur be together or her be with no one at all.
(Edit: Yes, there could be many other, better options for her but just saying out of all the cats that have shown romantic affection to her, Stormfur is the best.)
Finally.
Stormfur is the best choice for her
Yeah Stormfur is definitely the better choice
Even tho I don’t ship them yeah I agree
But the problem is that they are both from different clans
@@Oakhaze that is true. My only problem with Bramblestar and Squrrielflight is that she can't do anything to stop this abuse because it's gone on for so long. At this point the best thing for this to end if for Squilf to be like "ayo fuck bramblestar that betch was horrible and imma stay single or date a girl periodt"
Squirrelflight: don't murder pregnant women
Bramblestar: no
Fandom: squilf is so manipulative and bad!!!! :(
@@solsticesailor uhh i think you misread my comment
@@solsticesailor Whoosh
@@solsticesailor since when was Squilf a guy?! Let alone abusive!
@@adamyusuf1805 I misread the comment,
@@solsticesailor oh
The way people place blame on Squirrelflight because she stands her ground and doesn't back down when she knows what she's doing is right reminds me of the concept of the "perfect victim". The idea that, to be a "real" victim of abuse, you have to be completely perfect and innocent and never fight back. Otherwise, any bad behavior you show (no matter how justified) will be treated as justification for your abuse. This is how the fandom treats Squirrelflight. She's clearly in an abusive relationship, and both the cycle of abuse and her thought processes clearly show that. But because she argues with Bramblestar when he's being unfair instead of silently submitting, she's not the "perfect victim". Because she doesn't fit into the innocent and submissive box people have for abuse victims, they decide she doesn't count for being "bossy" (i.e. standing up to abuse), or "entitled" (i.e. having wants), or any other argument meant to paint her as "just as bad".
Which is exactly what Bramblestar does! Even when she ALMOST DIED, he shifts the blame and says that they're BOTH at fault. What the "perfect victim" concept does, at the end of the day, is reinforce the manipulation abuse victims have to go through at the hands of their abuser. I like how you phrased it at the end: Even if Squirrelflight was bossy, or entitled, or whatever, that doesn't suddenly strip her of her experiences as an abuse victim. And for anyone reading this who can relate to this video, the same is true for you. You and your experiences are still just as legitimate and deserving of support, even if you weren't the "perfect victim".
I've always hated how many people think that abuse victims have to be sad and weak and submissive, it feels like everytime me or my friends talk about the shit we go through people don't take us seriously because we're loud and angry instead of quiet.
@@TheMorde45 I feel the same way. Loud and angry victims are just as valid as sad and submissive ones. You have a right to be angry about what happened to you, and it doesn't make you any less of a victim.
@Moon did- did you watch the video at all?
@Moon yeah but that's.. one thing. What about the entire Hope thing?
...thank you for that bit at the end...
I'm not going into detail, but I'm not the 'Perfect Victim' either.
me: oh maybe its another one of her shorts
Moonkitti: ArE YoU SuRe AbOuT tHaT
YEAH ITS ONE HOUR
Ocelot filler arc
YES
I didn't know this was a hour when I saw the vid
it's not a short, it's a long
“don’t you love me anymore?” Squirrelflight throughout the books has consistently proven to be an honest, direct, and literally one of the least under-handed characters of them all (setting aside when she lied for Leafpool, that’s basically the one exception), so it def struck me as her genuinely needing an answer to that question.
I have to say,I genuinely believe the answer to that question is no,the way he’s been acting recently just sets this in stone,I could go on and on about all the times he was shown to be abusive and how that shows that he doesn’t love her,but it would be a waste,you’ve already watched the video.
And to be fair on that Leafpool bit, Starclan basically guilt tripped her into taking those kits so really she had no choice in the matter whatsoever.
@@stopreadingthisusername9528 And yet they purposely told her to leave Bramble claw out of the loop why
@Human Garbage I don’t know which would be worse- that he doesn’t love her at all, or that he does love her and still treats her like this
@@thistle_flowers5018 I honestly just treat it as character derailment
I full on believe that they're ONLY together because StarClan needed them to raise Leafpool's kits.
And you can't change my mind.
True, and they also were the main male and female protagonists so they Haddddd to be together (I hate this but I’m pretty sure it’s one of the reasons)
@@dropletdraws8907 male and female protagonists that aren’t siblings? Ship ship ship!!!
@@julesyano4337 this is definitely one of the truest comments(and responses) on this whole post
I felt like they were going for the whole hero's daughter falls in love with villains sons thing
@@deltastar4147 true
Remember when the whole point of brambles character was to prove to firestar that he shouldn’t judge others on their bloodline/looks? As in, firestar got over being scared of him just because he was related to and looked like Tigerstar. Well the hunters threw away his “good character type” for this.
For some reason the Erins started treating she-cats like trash
@@startheangel9760 eeyup. They are borderline becoming J.K Rowling at this point
Yeah.. Firestar(heart) was right being sus of him..
@@honeybumblebee9274 especially since he ended abusing firestars own daughter
@@gouldiloof Not really, since Bramble was still a baby to child when he was suspicious of him. No child should be judged for the sins of the father.
Bramblestar's Storm: We need more kittens
Squirrelflight's Hope: Will you ever shut up about kittens?
xD I just realised that...
I wonder if his mindset changes after what happens Dandelionkit and Juniperkit, as he doesn’t want to have to experience the tragedy of losing any more kits?
@@TheDarthEme Oh, that hurt me. I eish it would have gone into more detail on the loss of their kits. It could have been some great character development for Bramblestar if he was afraid to have kits, not seemingly just being controlling.
@@nellbell2568 agreed. I really like Bramblestar and wish his character was written better, it’s sucks that they kind of made him a bit controlling and rude
Well to be fair, thunderclan is big enough
The Erins had the ability to stop this terrible relationship when they didn't have any important things to do in later books, in bramblestars storm jessy shows up being a love interest for bramblestar. Bramblestar thinks of cheating on his cat wife with jessy, this should've been the breaking point in the relationship but for some reason it wasn't. They should have been apart, the only actual reason bramblestar didn't cheat in that book is because he raised kits with squirrelflight?? It's ridiculous in every way.
It wouldn't be cheating though, because they broke up
@@chxrrybxmb8204 They were still together. Just taking some time off from each other. It’s called a break I think? You take time off from the relationship then make up later or fully break up, as you’re not exactly broken up I still count it as cheating. It’s only not cheating if the two agree to seeing other people in the meantime. Imagine having a small break from your significant other only to find out that they took that time to get laid with as many people as possible?? You’d feel like they don’t truly love you. What’s the point in maybe getting back together when clearly it doesn’t affect them since they have others to get laid with? or they might find someone they love more than you.
@@testerwulf3357 I agree, and i hate brambleclaw, with all my heart but I really don't see anything that says they were on anything but a break up.
@@FantasticFawnleap he was on a break, not completely broken up.
To add onto this, they were on a break but if squirrelflight had known about what had happened between the two of them they would never have resumed their relationship.
oh this is... this is spooky. wow. imagine writing such a realistic abusive relationship.... *accidentally.*
Oh seriously, makes one worry about how the authors view or know relationships
I refuse to believe it's accidental at this point. If it is, I'm terrified.
@@snakewithapen5489 makes you wonder about the author’s relationships, and why they think this is okag
I've seen similar situations happen when people are shipping characters that are toxic towards each other, I guess that sometimes when someone is super invested into a couple they like they overlook those things because they are more into the characters being together then how they would actually function. That's my guess anyways I've never really been one for analyzing and writing romance
@@snakewithapen5489 it his accidental,kate said that brambleclaw was incapable of being abusive,how he one of our most honorable warrior,that he always treated her as a equal and with respect and that he and squirrelflight just have different opinions and partners sometimes feel so intensely to be always racional
"Blood runs deeper than anything" is a weird connection to make right after deciding you want to be a good dad to your adopted kits 🤔
at this point it wouldnt surprise me if the Erin's forgot they werent his (or her) biological kits.
Right!? so nonsensical 😑
"Why would you help your twin sister who is the only medicine cat of this Clan and has been nothing but helpful and kind to everyone"
Says the cat who almost murdered his father figure and abandoned his morals for his half brother he knew for a month
lOgIc
*MORALS 100*
Bramble claws reason makes sENcE
I honestly loved Firestar and Bramblestar’s dynamic. But to be honest, that‘s... pretty much the only redeeming part of Bramble’s character. Ugh.
Isn’t that kinda weird since Firestar was a father figure to Bramblestar and now Bramblestar is dating Firestar’s daughter? 0~0
for me, the worst part is it all worked. i hated squirrelflight because i was a young, impressionable reader. i've grown past that, but i haven't read the books recently enough to really remember bramblestar's behavior. i know by now its wrong, but as a kid, the tactics WORKED. i was fully on bramblestar's side once. i wasn't even out of elementary school. if i hadn't learned better by now, i could've become bramblestar. watch what you're writing and how it's presented. the books tried to present bramblestar as sympathetic, and i, an elementary school kid, believed it. i believed that bramblestar was in the right because i couldn't have known better and nothing showed me otherwise because bramblestar is intended to be sympathetic. i also do not have some of the books that demonstrate their relationship, as i don't own more recent books, but i have many and they all contributed.
YES, THESE ARE CAT BOOKS. but i learned so much from all the books i read and this was almost one of them. i almost learned that being bramblestar is okay, is good, is right. i did learn it, but not fully, and i have been working to undo that idea within themselves.
you CANNOT dismiss the lessons any fiction can teach, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
THIS! I was in the same exact situation and as a young impressionable kid I didnt like Squilf either because the authors presented her in such a way were to a kid she was in the wrong. They need to be careful how they write things that they 'for kids' because most kids will think of that as normal witch is incredibly dangerous.
@@purple6242
I hope later books present her better, i largely lost interest past omen of the stars, but i doubt it after seeing this video, as even if they present squirrelflight as in the right, bramblestar is still........whats the word.......not fully presented as unsympathetic, more as a neutral party whos been sympathetic? it does not fill me with confidence.
I read Warriors much older than you started probably, so I was so confused. I though Squirrelflight was just fine, and interesting character, while Bramble just saying how annoying she is. Which is why I also don't find Jayfeather heartless or cold, like how other cats say he is, but in his mind, or even out of his mind, I can see how he truly cares for his Clanmates beneath that layer of standoffish-ness.
But I have to agree, its frustration how it worked. How Bramble's attempts and everything worked out for him, and I feel so sorry for Squirrelflight.
Im in elementary school and I knew Brambkestar was being unfair at time, though I used to really like him. Not i see his true self.
Good good GOOD very good post here. oh my goodness
I'm nearly at a lose for words. I'm sorry.
Yes, strongly agree.
How ironic. He didn't want to be as bad as his dad, but here we are
At least HE somewhat treated his mates nicely... okay maybe not, but better than Bramblebutt here.
@Skywalker Kitty Haha, I think he has a lot of nicknames. I personally call him Bramblebutt. But some say Brashblestar/Brashstar, and some with swear words in it that I prefer not to use. :D!
Kinda funny how we have nicknames for certain characters.
Yeah this is like the weird Tigerstar x Sasha relationship, where he claims to love her but chastises her for her decisions and who she is 😕
Bramble is WORSE then Tiger
Runs in the family I guess
I’m really sick of seeing people call Bramblestar a good mate and a good cat and then call Squirrelflight a bitch, when they completely ignore how Bramblestar has always treated her.
ikr?
Literally everyone hates on bramble, no one sympathizes with him.
@@layladeclaire4737 idk mabey watch the video your replieing to
@@stric9l0l not what I meant, genius. Nobody in the fandom calls him a good mate and no one trashes on Squirrel. There’s a huge bias for her. This comment is completely wrong and out of touch. And frankly, it’s quite stupid how people get all of their opinions from two biased youtubers instead of thinking for themselves.
@@layladeclaire4737 yes because the fandom got over it this video is 2 years old anyway go back to when this was made (or even befor then) and you'll find a-lot more bramble fans but most ether changed or left
“YA JUST LIKE YA FATHER”
-leafpools angry ghost
“YOU’LL NEVER BE SHIT” -Leafpool’s ghost
I can only hear this in a Scottish accent
YA EVEN MO ANNOYIN THAN HAWKFROST - Darkstripes ghost
“YA WORSE THAN ME” -BrokenStars Ghost
“YA SUCK AT YA JOB MATE” -Firestar’s ghost
Squirrelflight is a lot like her father firestar. I'm Suprised that she never brought that up.
Never went
" Firestar would've helped this injured cat! "
" my father would've done this "
Or perhaps even challenged that her father was a better leader.
Something like that. I'm very Suprised she never brought his actions up- Firestar was a great leader.
That’s def more on how the series treats family, it’s just so odd.
True.
But some might've taken that as "Oh wow you're so 'spoiled' and 'special' aren't you"
And Bramble would've definitely blamed Squirrelflight's mistrust on her father if she had said anything about it.
It's actually pretty cool to see how similar she is but also how independent she.
Idk if any of that made sense lmao.
But yeah, she could've tried using "my father would've helped [blank]" to maybe see if Bramble would've listened
Agreed. In New Prophesy they tricked us. Thought Bramblestar would live up to him and be a good cat. He wasn't.
there was one bit in the new prophecy in midnight where she complains about how firestar wouldve done something about a badger but thats different. but yeah it wouldve been cool to see her do something along the lines of that. or even her saying she regretted not choosing ashfur as a mate (and yes i am aware ashfur would not have been a good mate but im pretty sure in the narrative squilf wouldnt think about that when agrivated at bramble)
I feel like Bramblestar doesn't like Squilfs actions because she's behaving like a better leader than he is, seeing her actions as good forces him to realize he's bad.
I love how when Squirrelflight breaks up with her boyfriend and explores other options she's automatically demonized, accused of leading Brambleclaw on, attempting to make her ex jealous, etc. But suddenly when Bramblestar literally openly pursues another woman and buries his face in her hair to smell her one last time nobody bats an eye and assumes this is all normal,, hmm👁👄👁
I've literally seen people hate on squirrelflight and try to justify Ashfur's actions by saying that Squirrel _cheated on him._
They were never in a relationship, Squirrel might have been interested in him for a little while because Bramble was being an absolute POS to her at the time, but Squirrel never cheated on Ash- there's no reason for him to try to murder three cats he believed were here children other than the fact he felt entitled to her because he liked her.
Bramble is the apparently unfaithful one, and yet we never see anyone call him out on it, either in the books or in the fandom.
@@snakewithapen5489 Fr it’s just behavior enacted by 12yos who don’t know what a fling is. Squirrelflight’s just treated like some kind of trophy object the whole time and it’s so sick to read :/
@Some Weeb Why don't you think so?
Idkw, but the fact that this sounds so similar to how DovexBumble works somehow makes it worse...
@Abigail Ginn yeah I was lmao
Bramblestar seems like the kind of guy who calls himself an "Alpha Male"
Legit
Bramble Tate
True
@@ssupermarlo what color is your pelt
He runs an alpha male meeting after gatherings, doesn't he
Bramblestar would probably find "I hate my wife" boomer comics funny
@abiiurry ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
I feel like this audio sample applies _very_ well: ruclips.net/video/dHc5y93g8-0/видео.html
@@Schnort why hello fellow mcyt fan
if you aren't one then uh 😃 this is awkward
@@robynsadlyisnttaken4692 did I hear someone say...mcyt? 👀👀👀👀
@@BowHooHoo maybe 👀👀
@@robynsadlyisnttaken4692 HELLO FELLOW S I M P
Squirrelflight is a character I’ve always projected on bc of my abuse. Hearing somebody else say that this isn’t just me projecting is nice!! I just wish the Erin’s either didn’t use this narrative or wrote it better. Emotional abuse is a complex thing, and it’s hard to write, but it’s important. The fact that people don’t pick up on this narrative and assume squirrelflight is in the wrong is a bad sign. These are books aimed towards kids, and while I think serious topics should be covered, if they aren’t covered properly what’s the point? Idk sorry for rambling but I love this video homie
hot take: squirrelflight didn’t really do anything wrong by breaking up with ashfur. sure it sucks for ashfur, being broken up with is of course super upsetting and unfortunate, but at the end of the day squirrelflight shouldn’t have to stay in a relationship she isn’t happy in just for ashfur’s (a full grown cat who most likely knew she may still have feelings for bramblestar) sake. it wouldn’t have been fair to either of them. i honestly think squirrelflight is better off single.
This honestly should not be an unpopular opinion. Of course Squirrelflight can break up with Ashfur whenever she pleases - that's literally how relationships work. People break up all the time because they don't think it'll work out. The fact that people seriously try to fault Squirrelflight for ~wronging~ Ashfur is ridiculous and frankly, concerning.
@@gretel654 THANK YOU!
God thank you for saying this. I'm so tired of people portraying Squilf as a villain for breaking Ashfur's heart when reality she never meant to hurt him and even tried being friends with him afterward. The fact that this is a hot take just tells you a lot about the fandom ://
@@tunaramen i’m so relieved to know there are others who believe squirrelflight shouldn’t be portrayed as heartless for ending things with ashfur. i was honestly nervous to share my thoughts because i genuinely can’t remember ever seeing anyone in this fandom defend her for doing so. squilf deserves better :(
@CLAIRE HETZLER I believe that too. Unfortunately, Stormfur would never have gone for it even though he liked her during the journey to find Midnight. He was so against Crowpaw and Feathertail being together and he knew better than to try to be with a cat from another Clan.
I'm seriously worried for whoever is writing WC, especially people who wrote Squilf's hope. Like, you don't accidentally write a perfect example of an abusive relationship. Either you did it intentionally or you yourself have experienced an abusive relationship and tought it was normal, "this is what relationships are supposed to be like". If somebody's relationship is similar to Squilf and Bramblestar, they need to break up immediately.
im not gonna lie, Bramblestar's Storm from what ive seen reads like some fanfiction im not even kidding, that "Is she always like this?" line just felt like some 14 year old wrote it
I read it, it was basically a fanfic, not even that good of one. It had a lot of weird moments that went nowhere, like Bramblestar noticing that Tigerheart and Dovewing ”Fought as if they had been raised with each other” then Bramblestar never thought of it again. Jessy was... Weird, honestly, she just came out of nowhere, was really into Clan life, then left and insisted Squirrel and Bramble should be together because they had an unbreakable bond. I didn't like it.
It makes me feel like the Erins were maybe trying to set up Squilf and Bramble as an argumentative couple that get into meaningless spats but still love each other. And that type of dynamic, if done right, is interesting and fun to watch. However, it seems like it’s a constant battle with Bramble trying to keep himself over Squilf and make arguments that seem to leave a bitter aftertaste in your mouth. When you’re in a relationship, you’re not going to be agreeable with each other all the time. Little arguments are normal and healthy. What is not healthy is this cycle of toxicity that Bramble has been able to get away with for so long cause in all stages of their life, he’s higher than her in status.
I have a cousin whose relationship is like that, little spats that are honestly hilarious and you know they still love each other. So to think that abuse is this? Honestly it makes me worried about the younger fans that read this book without knowing better..
Frankly, the bickering couple trope often mirrors abusive relationships too, at least in movies and TV shows. (Hopper and Joyce from Stranger Things are a great example.)
But having a passionate couple with strong opinions who debate about their beliefs and how they should act on them? Awesome. A couple who just jokingly mocks and teases each other? Cool. I feel like that *might* be what the writing team wanted to do with the pairing (other than just wanting Fire and Tiger's kids to hook up) but instead it's just a one sided abusive relationship.
pst... you know something awful i just realized about that thing in squirrelflights hope of "lets go sneak out and run around and pretend we're young again?"
it's been mentioned that firestar and sandstorm had a habit of going night hunting. yknow. *firestar*. when he was a leader. still made time for his relationship. and these were squirrelflight's parents.
If firestar always had time for sandstorm and didn’t fight all the time like brash apprentices bramblestar had NO excuse to ignore and constantly talk down to squirrelflight. Firestar treated sandstorm like an equal, his mate, the one person he could truly rely on the most and trust; Bramble treated squirrelflight like an annoyance, he used her and abused her and neglected her needs making her feel bad for having needs.
@@testerwulf3357 exactly!! and that was even with all the spottedleaf drama.
i dont understand how we have sandstorm and firestar, a relationship where one of them is a leader and the other fiery and headstrong like squirrelflight, watch them have *no* pattern of malicious behavior, watch all of firestar's blunders in the relationship (mostly spottedleaf related) get treated seriously and addressed and fixed, and watch him still make time for her and respect her insights from a leadership perspective, and then have the books turn around and act like bramblestar just HAS to be this way! they never ACTUALLY fix any of his problems, and his problems were much worse than firestars "im still hung up on my dead crush" garbage.
This made me have a sudden rush of nostalgia and sadness. I miss the times when Firestar and Sandstorm were alive.
Tbh the only reason the Erin's made them get together is purely based off that bramblestar is tigerstar's son and squirrelflight is firestar's daughter
Sad, because they had a perfectly good Mothpool...
But the fact that the whole abusive behavior was unintentional does kind of alarm me, bcs like Spottedleaf's book, they're portraying a dangerous, toxic relationship as normal or even "uwu quirky uwu"
It makes me worry for the Erins and wonder if these are relationships that they have been or are currently in. It makes me wonder if they think these sorts of relationships are normal and what that could mean for them.
Eh...never met your idols, I guess.
What relationship are you talking about from Spottedleaf's book? (Literally didnt even know there was a book for her so I know nothing about any of it 😭😭)
@@deedeedan8681 between Spottedpaw (little spottedleaf) and Thistleclaw. Moonkitti did a video on it.
Edit: it's this one: ruclips.net/video/llxosPdKszI/видео.html
@@thefiretailedweasel6206 just watched and jeeeeeeeeeesus christ on a stick that is a MESS
@@deedeedan8681 yeah
but you’re missing the point. spottedleaf’s heart was clearly a take on pedophillia, otherwise vicky wouldn’t have used it as reasoning as to why he went to the dark forest. the REAL issue with spottedleaf’s heart was *how* it resolved. spotted x thistle was intended abuse, squirrel x bramble wasn’t, but they’re both badly written.
ah, the classic “he only hits me because i did something wrong”
Double yikes bro
@@frankenstein2758 triple yikes bro
@@humangarbage3019 Quadruple yikes bro
@@olivineanimatics477 quintuple yikes bro
@@humangarbage3019 s*xtuple yikes bro
"her mate was a kind tom" idk why but this comment about Larksong really hit me. Like she acknowledges that Bramblestar isn't kind towards her and is happy that at least her daughter isn't receiving the same abuse as she does :(
I love this. I used to not like Squilf, I was indifferent about Bramblestar, but this really opened my eyes. And after watching this, with the realization that Squilf is literally killing herself in this new arc to fight for her abuser's life is so depressing
Yeah, it just makes me so sad to think about how the abuse has been going on for so long that Squilf has literally developed Stockholm syndrome.
@@honeybumblebee9274 and the fact that she was terrified of Ashfur while he was possessing Bramblestar and flinched a lot during that time yet still thought it was her own mate...
“I just want justice for my little red cat...”
the way you said that broke my heart. Everything you have described here is just awful, absolutely awful. She’s been crossing paths with squirrelflight directly ever since she’s been an apprentice (maybe not even a year old), and now she’s getting old, she even said it herself. Squirrelflight has been in an abusive relationship basically her entire life. Her ENTIRE life. It has to stop, because if not, what next? Might the next confrontation actually lead to her death? This little red cat needs some tender loving care.
@@summerrain6488 i'd argue she's sandstorm nr 2 xD
I think.... Moonkitti dislikes Bramblestar.. I’m not quite sure though.
If only she made a documentary on how Bramblestar is terrible. Hmmm
Yeah it would be *really* helpful if she did
Yeah i wonder why she hasn’t yet?
That would be cool to watch.
Oh welll, i guess this short video will do
damn it’s just really hard to tell..hopefully she makes a super really long documentary about it
I absolutely hate the fact that people defend Bramblestar, as someone who has been in an abusive relationship, it’s like a slap in the face. This is a struggle for to type. My ex was severely emotionally and mentally abusive towards me throughout our relationship. He was constantly yelling at me, belittling me, made me severe friendships I had. He once punched the wall, inches close to my face. He did a lot of terrible things to me in our relationship, despite me saying no.. a few of my most favorites is when he wanted to was when he wanted to have s*x with me I told him no and proceeded to yell at me because “I was wasting his time”. Our senior Prom he told me “You look like a Mexican wh*re.” and then expected me to want to go sleep at his house that night and when I refused he yelled at me for that. One year on my birthday I was navigating him to see some Christmas lights and I told him to take the wrong turn. A simple accident. He yelled at me again. My most favorite is when he got drunk with his friends and sent pictures of my boobs to one of them and proceeded to blame me for it. He is a piece of sh*t. I know for a fact that he treated his other girlfriends like that as well. Bramblestar shows all of these signs. He’s disgusting and he would have been the same way with Jessy or any other cat he could get with. He’s toxic for anyone.
I'm glad you're finally out of that awful relationship. I hate when people get away with doing things like this or when people defend this kind of shit. I hope you find someone new and better for you. You deserve it.
ive been arguing with someone on deviantart about it for a week its kind of disgusting especially considering theyre obviously a child and severely uneducated and refuse to look at the evidence gghhgh
i'm also very happy you got out of that relationship!! i hope you're doing better now!
I wish you the absolute best of luck recovering from that trauma. Happy to see you out of that situation!
Sparkpelt clearly knowing her Mom is in an abusive relationship is what hits close to home for me
Same here. Only thing is that my mom and I know that my father is a really, really toxic person towards everyone, not just her. She's planning on divorcing him btw
@@ix3755 I'm glad to hear you'll hopefully have a way out, and I wish you all the best in the future
@@annawesometheflameingpikac3688 This is so late, but thank you so much! My mom is saving up money to move out of state, and so am I.
@@ix3755 I know it's not much, but I believe in you! You deserve to get out of this situation, and I trust you'll be able to find happiness where you and your mom end up
@@annawesometheflameingpikac3688 Thank you! I appreciate it!
Hell 👏 Yes 👏 Girl 👏
God I love every single one of your vids but damn this hit different. Love your deep dives!!!
You’ve highlighted so much that I completely missed while reading it legit blew my mind. Seeing all his actions laid out and in context is absolutely chilling. Like I got legit goosebumps midway through. Damn.
Such a good video Moon. Your work is unparalleled!
Agreed :) hello btw
I agree with every bit of that. This is such a underrated comment, especially from someone like you!
I agree lol
I agree with this more than I agree that Mothwing is one of the best cats in arc 2
@@swampthelizard One of? No, MothWing is the best
they really had to make ashfur go turbo and try to kill 4 cats so brambleclaw would look better in comparison 😭😭
THANK YOU
this comment made me burst out laughing LOL because everyone knows it's true 😹
THANK YOU FOR COMMENTING THIS.
It's really sad to think that they went that far to make Brambleclaw "look good." It really shows that they knew he was terrible, but found a lazy way out of it.
@Wowie Zowie why are you everywhere
He's just boring, abusive, and terrible. Ive never liked him and thought he'd be better as a villain tbh. Just my opinion tho, I really liked this video on you just exposing him ฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ
Edit: Dam didn't know you guys were fighting over a persons opinion. Leave them alone, its their opinion ok? Not everyone is gonna think the same as you. Unless its hurting someone, their fine.
Same lol
Bramblestar's treatment of Squirrelflight is what started driving me away from the series.. He was such a contrast to Firestar as a protagonist. Definitely felt like him taking his insecurity out on Squirrelflight was unwarrented, and I'm dismayed to hear their relationship hadn't gotten much better since. :(
I definitely agree. I find it extremely difficult to try and see where people are coming from when they say Squirrelflight is worse. I can’t wrap my head around it. He could definitely be a good villain tbh and he is so boring. I don’t remember one exciting or (positive) memorable thing he did in any of the books
Tbh I agree, he was a good boy when he was younger, but he just wasn’t fit for squirrelflight nor leader
Bro I liked Bramble but i stopped reading the series when Firestar died (last book in omen of the stars, i think) What happened after that damn
Bramble was such a change against firestars heroic persona who does what he thinks best. It was nice to see the opposite be worked into the story, I thought that the toxic relationship was-obviously toxic- and while I didn’t like it, it was again, a nice change to fire and sands perfect relationship, and I was waiting for their relationship to improve. It never did, I thought they’d eventually come to ties the older they got, but it only got worse and I began to hate the second arc, bramble and the whole ship together.
It's actually heartbreaking what he's done to Squirreflights confidence... She's such an amazing character and her energy has been fantastic since the start tbh, and honestly it felt like he never saw her as a full cat, ever since he PINED AFTER HER WHEN SHE WAS AN APPRENTICE, he was still looking down at her as if she was a stupid child, because apparently that's attractive to him. If he thinks she's so immature then maybe he should stop dating her, he'd be doing her a big favour, even if it hurt her to lose him at the start she'd be better off in the long run.
It is really sad how he drains all the confidence out of her. I agree.
Have you ever watched the video or what? You make me laugh more.@@DaisyBelll
@@DaisyBelll no one said she was perfect or never made mistakes, but the abuse is clear.
Watch the video.
Oh hell nah! I do NOT like that implication...
But you're definitely correct on all of these points.
I hate how Warriors portrays females. It’s the only part of the series that I hate. She-cats are always paired off. They become dependent and weak. The Hunters don’t care -or don’t even realize they’re subjecting these characters to abusive relationships. I hope something changes.
Edit: omg thank you guys! This is the most liked comment! Thank you guys for your comments. I agree with everyone- something needs to change! I’m going to try to make a vid about this on my channel :)
And make them extra naive to get them into a forbidden relationship and be taken by a dumb tom who don't feel empathy for others like bruh-- can't female characters have a good time for once-?
Also it’s really strange how they’re called “she-cats” and not Mollies. Like, usually in animal fiction they either call the characters she- and he-, or they use the gendered terms for the animal in question. I always found it a bit questionable how warriors mixed em like that.
@@kiekhoot2970 Isn't that only Leafpool and Crowfeather? And maybe Fallowtail and Reedfeather?
Asides from that, I thought Oakheart, Tigerheartstar, and Graystripe were emphatic mates that are toms.
@@Corviidei True XD
@@kiekhoot2970 omg ikr???
I loved bramblePAW’s concept in TPB because of how honorable he acted and how loyal he was to thunderclan, willing to stay and work harder to prove he was a good cat, but what they did with his character is just sad, and disappointing, and to a certain extent heartbreaking because I expected so much more. Squilf never deserved to be treated that way. I truly wish the authors wrote Bramblestar differently.
preach 🙏
Exactly. His father/son brother/brother relationship with FireStar as an apprentice and young warrior in New Prophecy was the only point i loved him. I also enjoyed Ashfur as a character, and even though i wasn’t all “shippy shippy” with him and Squilf, i was at least hoping he would stay as a friend or support system.
He was slightly overbearing and had moments where he forgot abt how independent she was , but he respected and was kind to her. He defended her against Bramble, and was a friend to her when she needed it. I hate how the Erins took him and made him a “she chose him-? I will kill her family and hold a 22 year old grudge against her children...” type villain.
He was never like that before, and his whole personality led me to believe he would act a bit betrayed and upset at her choosing the man who treated her like shit over him, who was kind to her, but eventually would have forgiven her and respected her choice, no matter how he felt about it.
He and Bramble were dragged through the mud simply for plot, and its disappointing
@@bleachdrinker69 Yeah, I kind of feel bad for how they treated poor Ashfur's character after Squilf chose Brambleclaw. Like you, I was kind of hoping he would stay as a friend or supporter to her, but no,,, he just,, turned against her?? It kind of seems out of character for him to just have snapped like that, but it's probably just because the Erins wanted to build up drama with the whole secret getting out. It's kind of disappointing though, they could've done it another way that would've been equally if not more suspenseful. :/
@@solseclipse I know, right? I would've LOVED a dynamic with Ash being some kind of chill uncle to the Three since Bramble is almost always busy and/or upset. Then they could still get the "they aren't my kits" drama some other way by Squirrel deciding to confide in Ash because she trusts him and somebody overhearing or something like that. The Erins kinda ruined perfectly good characters for the sake of drama, and there's little I hate more than ruined characters :
He's basically Thunderclan's equivalent of Onestar but with a dash of on-screen abuse added in at this point 😬😬😬
Oh god, when Sparkpelt yells at Squilf asking why she’s sticking up for Bramblestar... I’ve been in that exact situation numerous times as a kid with one parent abusive towards the other.
Something that should be notes is that Bramblestar, in multiple instances, uses a very common manipulation/abuse tactic: Love bombing.
Love bombing is when a manipulator/abuser realizes that they have upset or are at risk of losing their victim, so, they shower the victim with love, attention, and promises(that usually aren’t fulfilled) in order to make them stay, in order to make them believe that they are loved, even if this affection isnt the norm for their relationship.
Another tactic that could be interpreted from his actions is where the abuser gives promises, ideas, etc. to the victim, but either these promises dont have a set date or are far in the future. Whenever they reach the “calm” period in a relationship, at least one promise gets fulfilled. This leads the victim to associate the abuse they receive as just the build up to something good.
I've known about this for a long time but reading that in description made me realize my only friend is doing that to me, I didn't want to believe it since she is a victim of an ex gf doing that to her, and, well, my only friend, but it makes sense now. I'm sorry, that was kind've unrelated, I just felt like this huge gut punch just now and it hurts so now I'm rambling in the replies. Sorry again, probably just ignore this.
@@god_2.0_the_better_version Hey...just want to check up on you. I've had this same friendship and it's hard to go through. But I do believe you should distance yourself. Do you have a discord? Maybe you'd Iike to talk? I recently lost the same friend and damn it's hard. I wouldn't want really any one to go through it alone like I'm having too.
@@god_2.0_the_better_version I'm so sorry, wishing you all the best how are you right now 💗💗💗 I'm sending you the hug!!!
@@god_2.0_the_better_version don't stay in toxic relationships please it's awful
@@GeniusHamsterhe Thank you. I've since let go of the friendship. I did it all alone when I had nobody left and it was really hard, but she was 17 and I was much younger, and she uh... well, let's just say, got very weird. Not technically grooming since she's also a minor but the age gap was way too big for that stuff to be normal. I'm not doing much better now, but hey, one more toxic person gone
This is why I wish they didn't kill off Shrewpaw so he wouldn't be a option. He seemed to genuinely care for her.
Shrewpaw & Squirrelflight deserved better :(
Agreed! They were really sweet, in the small amount of times we met him he seemed kind and like he could be protective without be smothering like ashfur.
@CLAIRE HETZLER ehhhhh, Stormfur is OK but stormfur KNEW that Brambleclaw loved Squireelpaw
She's also related to shrew and storm :D
Essay Incomming!!!
I liked Bramblestar up until the end of Midnight.
I really liked him during the Prophecies Begin. Also, he worked well as a carryover character to start New Prophecy w/ a familiar cat.
My problem is when he rejects Tigerstar in Darkest Hour that should have been it.
That right there should have been the end of his character arc; but they kept trying to pile more on top of him.
IDK why they wanted to make him have the same conflict over and over again. He literally rejected his own father to his face, what more do you need?
If you really want to do the whole: will he, won’t he; use Tawnypelt. In fact, swap Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt in New Prophecy.
Tawnypelt would have made much more sense. She left her own clan to be with Tigerstar. A lot of cats would probably still be suspicious of her intentions.
Have a conflict with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost where they are both trying to convince her to join their side.
Finally, have Tawnypelt be the one who decides to save Firestar in Sunset. She probably felt as though Firestar abandon her, because he didn’t do enough to make the clan accept her. Make that scene about revenge, and not: “I want to be leader.”
This way you could have Firestar actually show regret for something bad he did.
Yes, I had this pre typed when you announced this video on Twitter lol. What do people think about my ideas?
That's a really interesting point of view, thank you ! In fact i found Tawnypelt much more interesting than Bramble and the regret thing with Firestar could have been cool because even if i like him- he's just a perfect hero and it is kinda annoying sometimes
I absolutely love this, and would discard the old new prospect for this, if someone wrote it.
This makes total sense and would’ve made new prophecy about 8 times better
Tawnypelt > Brambleclaw
YES PLEASE
The way Warriors treats its female characters in general is just very bad.
I was going to write that Mistystar is the exception but- that's right she was trapped in a rotting hole and almost starved to death. Wow I never realized that...
All the strong female characters (except Sandstorm (?)) either end up uncharacteristically grouchy (Mousefur) or have some sort of traumatic experience in their lives. (Mistystar, Mothwing, Leopardstar, Bluestar, Hollyleaf, Ivypool, Yellowfang, Sorreltail, Spottedleaf (though SL wasn't that independent)... the list goes on)
oh and let's not forget about Willowpelt who was killed off for no apparent reason and then never gets mentioned again
@@zippyshuman1464 Holy shit you're right. What's up with that?!
@@zippyshuman1464 So was Shrewpaw, Rainwhisker, Runnigwind, Hazeltail, Whiethroat, Foxleap, Mudfur, Brindleface, Molepaw, Tadpole...
This comment made me think about Daisy and Spiderleg’s relationship ship
Ivypool is Good. I think that's about it, to be honest.
Honestly looking back at the beginning of their relationship, I gotta say the age gap is honestly really weird. I mean Brambleclaw is a warrior before Firestar's even leaves for his quest, and he even though he has kits soon after that still makes Brambleclaw quite a bit older than her. I did some rough timeline calculations for a fandom project and if we kepts all the events canon that would make Brambleclaw almost 2 years old at the beginning of Midnight. Even though they don't get together until after Squirrelflight becomes a warrior, I feel like they're relationship is comparable to a 25 year old dating an 18 year old who just graduated high school. As Moonkitti pointed out, there was always and inherit power imbalance and looking back it's kind of disturbing to see. ESPECIALLY when Bramble trivializes Squirrelflight's feelings or treats her like a child.
@RobotBlue 😰
@RobotBlue 25 and 18 is not a disgusting age gap Whats wrong with you
@RobotBlue no whats wrong with you, do you really think theres a great difference if youre 18 or 20 years old?
@RobotBlue check my Profile and tell me im 12 again
They’re animals. It’s really not that deep 🤦♀️
Plot twist: Bramblestar hasn't even been possessed or anything, everyone's just starting to see how much of a toxic and abusive person he is
Guys please I am joking
i get this is a joke but root boi sees his ghost
@@killersparky4044 It ends up just being the ghost of BrambleStar's personality before he became an abusive mess (not saying he had much).
No
@@starvoltnexus3139 yes.
@@Octoweaponry I really don’t like the supervision and I’d rather Retcon it to say that bramble star was possessed of the time and say this was all Ashfur actions If you’re going to make Ashfur a villain go all the way
erins:
try making the tigerstar and firetsar bloodline together
what happens:
a abusive relashionship
makes sense
This is why I now ship Mothpool
@@mckaylamarille8630 how to _properly_ mix the firestar and tigerstar bloodline together.
@@princerufioh You're not wrong.
Moon ILYSM for always taking the time to put this much work into contextualizing things, I wont repeat anything you said because I know we share the exact same opinion but I do think I have a theory about the author’s attempt with these two. I remember when OOTS was running and the fact they were exes was like, popular you know? I had friends and saw discussion about how this was sad but ultimately the best place for these two...no one really wanted them back together or thought that they should be, and I think on some level the authors feel that way too. However, the tossing of the “barren” storyline and just putting them back together tells me this was some mandate centered around Squirrelflight the character needing children (Alderheart and Sparkpelt) run the story along... which just doesnt make sense to me considering we had Dovewing, Ivypool and Lionblaze as options but I digress. I feel like Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw being together is just a state of the story not wanting to remove the status quo and wanting both of Firestar’s daughters to have protag bait, so instead of developing Squirrelflights relationship with someone new they do this.
It especially sucks because I can *feel* how much resentment the writers have for these two being together, its almost like they want us to be as upset and frustrated about it as they are, and its because of that I literally have no idea where they could want to take them from here especially since Our Guy is busy being a Zombie 🙂
A note that the Erins very well likely do have resentment for it. They've lost more and more control over the series over the years, and nowadays have to work with plots given to them by the editors at HarperCollins. The reason it reads like the writer hates the relationship is because they *hate the relationship and absolutely don't want it there*.
Firestar: “I should’ve left you in that fire.”
Bramblestar: “but cha didn’t!”
i am now imagining firestar saying that watching bramblestar from starclan around bramblestar's storm and squirrelflight's hope
he could have let brambleshit die, and saved Yellowfang. I would be happier.
@@ssupermarlo
Bluestar: “Firestar? Where are you going?”
Firestar: “I’m going to go tell cat hitler’s son that there is a prophecy where he must eat a pile of dirt and choke to death. HE DISRESPECTED MAH BABYY THAT MEANS DEATH”
@@WeirdCatLover me: "lemme join u fire star"
it would have been better for bramblestar too, he probs faced a lot of bullying due to who his father is.
Firestar watching bramblestar abuse and manipulate his daughter: 👁👄👁
@@MahkRonAKash He and Sandstorm loved eachother, he defended Squirrelflight and Leafpool against Lionblaze and Jayfeather, he made Sandstorm go to Jayfeather’s den when she was sick cuz he cared about her. The reason you don’t see much development is cuz he’s not the main focus anymore ig
@@MahkRonAKash The reason he lashed out at them was because he was told that the two would destroy the clans, this sounded like a bad thing so he tried to keep them apart. This is the only bad treatment we see given to Squirrelpaw. As I said he defended Leafpool’s secret and in his super edition he is given the chance to choose Sandstorm or Spottedleaf and he chooses Sandstorm. When Leafpool told Firestar of the bramble vision he agrees saying Brambleclaw would make a good deputy, just because he isn’t given much development with his children and lashes out at his daughter ONCE does not mean he’s a horrible father
@@MahkRonAKash He tried to keep the clans alive by separating them two bc that’s the msg Cinderpelt got from StarClan. Dude I only see you hating on him even tho there are many arguments against it wtf
@@MahkRonAKash um if firestar is bad than brambleclaw is dark forest bad
@@Oakhaze the high way dude is going through every reply section that involves firestar and I don’t think you’ll change their mind
This video essay is incredible. As someone who isn’t caught up with current warriors I’m so disappointed to see Bramblestar never got better but I’m also surprised I never noticed how awful he was from the beginning. I think it’s interesting how “unintentionally” their relationship mirrors abuse cycles you see happening with people irl. It really makes me wonder how much of their personal experiences the Erin’s put into that but i don’t think we will ever really know. Personally I believe that there has to be some parallels to the women who’ve worked on the books own experiences with men, I mean a lot of the toms straight up seem to deal with toxic masculinity even though they’re cats and it doesn’t make sense for them to act that way! When you’re used to dealing with men acting abusive and manipulative in life and don’t realize how wrong it is I imagine it can leak into your stories as an author and you might not even know it. I really wish that Bramblestar’s actions got more repercussions because I fear the ways in which it might normalize abuse to their readers.
Same.
Ya’ll are right. Squilf and Bramble’s relationship is toxic and it seems to be taking a toll on both of their mental health. I know Bramble is mostly in the wrong.. But I’m gonna be honest- I still feel bad for him. I think the reason Bramble star has some abusive behavior is because of his past. I ain’t excusing his actions but I still think thats the reason he acts the way he does towards her. His father was emotionally and physically abusive. He was manipulative and controlling. The way Hawk treated him was also emotionally abusive. I’m also fairly certain that his parents where in a abusive relationship. ( I’m not sure this is entirely accurate but there’s a lot of evidence proving this theory true. Considering how treated his kin I wouldn’t be shocked either. )
I feel like the reason he wants to be in control so bad is because every situation in his life has been out of his control. His whole clan hated him for something he didn’t even do anything. Tawny left Tc. Hawk tried killing him. Squilf lied to him.. the list could go on.
I feel like his desire for control has progressively gotten worse as he’s gained more power. He feels as though the more power he has, the more control and authority he has over others. This mindset is extremely toxic but you know where he’s learned this behavior from? His dad.
It’s obvious Bramble has trust issues. His own brother tried killing him. His sister left. Cats have constantly betrayed him and broken his trust throughout his lifetime it’s only reasonable that would effect him negatively on top of everything else that’s happened to him. I think he’s also insecure because Squilf switched up on him with Ash. He already has the mindset that he’s not good enough so due to Squilf actions I think that made his insecurities about himself worsen. People who tend to have trust issues are more controlling with their partners which is what we see in Bramble’s relationship because he’s scared of being betrayed and hurt again.
( I’d just like to say something, those of you saying they spilt up for the period of time she was with another cat- that isn’t actually accurate. If they where “dating” there was never any form of conformation from either party that they had split up. Which is why this situation in particular is mostly Squilf’s fault. If she she wanted to explore her options she should have communicated that with him. But she didn’t do that. She had been flirting with Bramble previously and suggesting she was interested in him in a romantic manner. It was clear she did have feelings for him and it was a mutual feeling between the both of them. They got into argument over something petty and cut off ties with each other for a while.Young couples fight. It’s normal to have disagreements. It’s only bad when it takes place frequently or if it gets to point where it’s straight up toxic. Sometimes it’s best to take a break but if your going to start seeing someone else you need to tell the other party.Squilf obviously was interested in Ash they hinted at being together multiple times. Not once to did she confirm with Bramble that she was no longer interested in him. I could be wrong but the fact still stands- she never said they where over when she was with another cat. So technically she IS in the wrong. Also I’ve seen people say Bramble treated her terribly back then too. Well- that isn’t exactly true either. She gave him an attitude and he gave it back too her. Is it toxic to be fighting all the time? Yes. But it isn’t solely Bramble’s fault. They both tested each other’s patience.)
I know what Squilf did was right at the moment but she literally lied about his
children actually being his. That’s beyond messed up. That definitely contributed to why he no longer trust her. Though he did give verbal conformation afterwards that he forgave her I don’t think he genuinely meant it. He was and still is very hurt. Why wouldn’t he be? I believe he did genuinely want her to have his kits when they where younger. He does still love her but he’s hurt. Despite later on her having his actual kits, I don’t think it was the same as before. He loved Holly, Jay and Lion like they where his own children.
( And then to have the cats who he raised as his own hate him for something he couldn’t control? No wonder he’s becoming so bitter and cold.)
If ya’ll remember when Squilf came back with them he was thrilled because he really did want to start a family with her. And to find out they where not actually his must’ve hurt like hell. Even though he’s said he forgives her, I highly doubt he means it. He’s just trying to make her happy. He’s suppressing his own feelings and how feels so he can satisfy his mate. He doesn’t realize this isn’t what she wants but he dismisses it. I’m fairly certain he doesn’t want kits because of Holly leaf’s death. He loved her like a daughter. It’s a parents worst fear to loose their child and I think that truly hurt him when she passed. Of course the argument could be made that Squilf also lost children before but she isn’t opposed to having more kits. But the truth is- everyone deals with grief differently for others it takes way longer to heal. I think he’s terrified of loosing Squilf. He’d do anything to please his her. That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if they where to have another litter. He’s lost so many other cats he’s loved before which is why he wants to be in control. He lost his mother when he was young. It’s obvious he didn’t want to kill Hawk either. He loved his brother. So I think that his death really broke him. He’s scared of loosing her but he doesn’t realize she doesn’t feel like he really loves her. He thinks he can prevent the deaths of his loved ones by being in control. But sadly that ain’t how life work.
That’s why there’s a relapse in their relationship where Bramble and Squilf get along for awhile. Because he’s scared to loose her.
With that being said I think He doesn’t realize that the way he’s treating his mate is terrible. Why? Because this is the way his father treated him. That doesn’t justify it but if an abuse victim isn’t taught that their abusers actions where wrong they’ll most likely go around doing the same thing to someone else because no ones told them, “Hey this isn’t ok, someone shouldn’t have treated you like this-“ and so on.
Bramble treats Squilf the same way his father treated him. Don’t believe me? He punishes her the same way his father did when she disagrees with him by degrading her opinion and emotionally abusing her. His father physically abused him. Something I haven’t seen him do to Squilf (But I could be wrong). This also goes hand-in-hand with the “maybe I’m the one who’s wrong-“ mentality Bramble guilt trips and belittles Squilf just like his father did to him. These are all learned behaviors. We’ve seen him do the same things Tiger did to him to Squilf.
Bramble isn’t a bad cat. He just has a lot of bottled up emotions, insecurities and past trauma he hasn’t dealt with. Which can be really effect some one badly if their trauma isn’t dealt with. He and Squilf honestly just need to learn how to communicate. Your relationship gonna suck if you can’t discuss how your feeling with your partner. Personally I think they should break up. Their relationship is only getting worse. They can split up and still love each other. Or at least go on a break. It’s just toxic that their still mates at this point.They need to work on themselves. Bramble needs a chance to heal and so does Squilf. She don’t need that toxicity in her life. I know that someone’s probably going to say I’m saying this because I dislike Squilf. But the truth is I really don’t. And I’m not denying that she’s in an incredibly toxic and unhealthy relationship. In fact I agree that in terms of who treats the other worst it’s definitely Bramble. However I don’t think he realizes that he’s hurting her. She hasn’t communicated that she feels like she’s being treated unfairly. And I think Bramble thinks his behavior is ok because of how he was treated by his father. He hasn’t been consulted and told that the way he was treated was terrible and that he shouldn’t treat anybody else like the way he was so he thinks his actions are ok.
Sorry this was a long rant!! 😅 I just wanted to share my opinion.
squirrelflight: *gets a new boyfriend*
brambleclaw: wow! i should go harass them and continue to try to guilt trip my ex for not liking my evil brother!
Dear Squilf,
1. Dig big hole. Very deep.
2. Put deathberries into Bramble's fresh kill
3. Put dead body into hole before he revives. Bury it. Let him suffocate eight times
4. Go to moonstone and take over clan. Yay SquirrelStar!
5. Bramblestar goes to dark forest hurray the end
Unfortunately we all know the Erin's won't let Their Golden Child go to the Dark Forest
Are you trying to repeat brokentail's death all over again? We already know how that turned out when yellowfang made her own son eat deathberries so he can die poisoned instead of fighting to the death.
6. Completely ignore or make up some kind of thing about Bramble's death :D
squirrelstar would suck ngl
@@Diamondr11Blue bro I was being sarcastic- and Im seriously genuine on that
I have never liked brambleclaw, I was so confused why everyone liked him since he was just so horrible to everyone. Bramblestar made him so unbearable I physically cannot stand him
Then sit down
@@ohmicahmicah xD
Honestly same. Unlike with other characters he never grew on me. He annoyed me so much. I'm glad this video exists.
Same i hate him-
Lilrose Fawn When i was younger reading the books i related to him because i didnt want to be affiliated with my father because of certain reasons 😅
Bluestar: "If you have half the courage and loyalty of Firestar, you will be a fine leader of ThunderClan."
Bramblestar: _Proceeds to abuse his wife and attack a queen and her newborn kits_
Me: _blink blink_ Ooookaaaaayy yeah sorry Bluestar nope
Let's be honest, bluestar didn't have the best judgment
The worst part is that the writers didn't even intend for this to happen. They genuinely thought they were making Bramblestar sympathetic and likable. Oof.
Yeah, but it’s pretty hard to like and be sympathetic towards him if they keep writing him like that.
@@jayfeatherthesnarkymedicin8160 yeah, that's what I'm saying lol
@@axelf9947
Yeah, I got that xD
@Wowie Zowie
True lol
Wowie Zowie *twigbranch*
ashfur is obsessed, bramblestar is abusive, cant poor squirrelflight get a normal mate for once
If only Shrewpaw had lived
@@JustDuckiestwhy did we have to live in the universe where ShrewPaw died?
@@kira-channn yes abusive.
ShrewPaw is her cousin too 😭😭
@@ShortyJordyBsandstorm has no confirmed parents so shrew isn't canonically related to squirrel
Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight like a possession. When she's with him, he doesn't care of her. When there is a rival to him, he's extremely jealous and insults Squirrelflight.
God, The Squirrelfight-Leafpool-kits thing is why I put down the books. Squirrelflight and Brambstar are Lionblaze's, Jayfeather's, and Hollyleaf's parents. Leafpool and Crowfeather are not. If you go to an orphanage and adopt a kid, you and your partner are the kid's parents. It doesn't matter if the couple who made him or her are alive. If you tell the kid they're adopted at a young age/birth, that doesn't mean they're unloved or truly the real kid of those parents. Jesus Christ, this hurt me and ticked me off so much when characters I really liked started acting like adoption is just a _lie!_ It's not! Squirrel and Bramble loved Lion, Jay, and Holly. Leaf might have felt some kinship toward them, but she was their _aunt_ not their _mom._ Crowfeather certainly felt no such kinship.
If a kid is made from a mother and a sperm donor, is their mother's husband not their dad? Is it some guy halfway across the world they've never even met?
If a baby gets thrown in a dumpster, are the people that adopt them not their parents, but rather the people who put him there?
If the kid's parents died and the kid was later adopted into a new home, are those adopted parents just fake?
What about if a gay or lesbian couple adopted a child? Would that child still be the child of whoever made him, or would his dads or moms be his parents?
Do you have to be biologically directly related to two older figures to consider them your parents? If one parent is gone for some reason and the other remarries, is that step-mom or step-dad not their mother or father?
Warriorcats in general seems to have a huge fascination with blood and lineage, and it really ticked me off seeing Bramblestar and the original Three act like their relationship was fake and a lie just because it turned out he wasn’t their biological father. You’re adopted? Oh, the horror, it’s not like your adoptive parents were the ones who raised you and fostered a relationship with you or anything. If the Erins are so obsessed with blood, then the least they could’ve done is google the actual phrase that got shortened to “Blood is thicker than water”.
@@Theartisticyoshi "I missed it when you were my dad." BRO HE'S STILL YOUR DAD.
I mean, they also turned Ashfur into a psychopath, so I'm chalking it up to plot reasons. Or maybe they hate adoption. Who knows?
@@Theartisticyoshi I can't really blame the three for reacting that way. They were raised in a world where your worth is defined by your bloodline, after all, despite Fire's best effort to change this.
As for Bramble, he was not trusted when he was younger, and so learning that he was not trusted with that secret understandably hurts, but blaming Squirrel for something that was essentiallly Star clan's decision is what's unfair.
This obsession with blood relationships is unfortunately a common belief among baby boomers and even some gen X even in the US. It's even more common in Europe it seems.
@@hyenaedits3460 That's just sad, honestly.
“Oh, Bramblestar isn’t that bad”
Moonkitti: *Im about to end this man’s whole career*
i was talking to my friend about how bad bramblestar is, and she was just like "well i don't hate him yet because he hasn't attacked her or anything so it isn't that bad" and believe me i rephrased atleast 3 whole websites about emotional abuse to her and most likely got her really concerned on how i knew so much stuff about this
so that was a fun 2 hours
@@robynsadlyisnttaken4692 all my friends are like ‘nonono Bramblestar did nothing wrong’
@@Randomreplacement All my friend are like “what’s warrior cats?” or “ are you a furry?” lol
@@robynsadlyisnttaken4692 What the fudge is wrong with your friend-
@@flippylekitty
i have no clue honestly-
"I just want justice for my little red cat." I haven't been active in this fandom for about a decade, and I skim TVTropes and the Warriors wiki to know what the heck has happened in the books I haven't read, but I just might write an AU in which Squirrelflight gets justice.
write it and link it i will read it
Oh boy do i have a warrior cats map for you
@@AnOmoriFanaticWhat is the MAP called?
honestly this is why i liked ashfur as a good character in these books before the whole fire business, but this does make me think that ashfur may have been turned into a villain solely to make brambleclaw look like the better choice...which is...hmm
@@brinana3629 nahh let's not lie Ashford was a good dude a bro but the authors made him a villain for no reason I feel like it could have been better if they made a book where we see ash fur grow and forget about squirrel flight instead of making him a jealous prick just to have bramble look good
@@brinana3629 that's the thing the way ash fur transitioned didnt make any sense at all that's why I think it was all just to make bramble look good think about it from a loving guys to a arsonist and we didnt get much reason to why he behaved this way our his true taught process we just got a stupid love triangle that turned one good character into a villain why? Cause the tigerXfire goodXbad
@@brinana3629 That's not true at all, Ashfur was basically a non-character before his fling with Squirrelflight. He didn't show any signs of being a nut at any other point in his life, and he had been an adult cat for a while. He was good to Squirrelflight, a bit overprotective but that's something that people can work on in a relationship and in the end its not really hurting Squirrelflight unlike Bramblestar's abusive behavior always belittling and lashing out at her and then not talking for days. I agree with the op, they basically changed him just to make Bramblestar look like a better mate. As a writer, it didn't fool me. If Ashfur is toxic than Bramblestar is fucking nuclear. If they didn't want to ship Bramble and Squirrel so hard, Ashfur would have ended up being written as a good mate. But they'd rather the conflict of them always bickering to keep things interesting.
@@tiiny_2576 I honestly disregard anything kittypet-prejudice related because that's a similar view of most clan cats. Not every cat in Thunderclan loved Firestar, nor Cloudtail, Millie, Daisy, ect. There's always been a lot of tension about outsiders and its persistently reinforced in the code and in other clans. Its hard to stomp out those unnecessary flames when they are all around and everyone except Thunderclan isn't so willing to take in kittypets and loners. If you lived in a society where everyone hated pretzels, wouldn't even look at them, three whole cities' worth of people and your group is the only one that will eat pretzels sometimes, that can make you pretty confused. Are pretzels bad or are they good? Most of society says they're bad. You might think 'Pretzels are bad, except for the ones I like to eat" and keep straddling that fence like some cats in Thunderclan still do. Kittypets and loners are never welcomed with open arms, there's always suspicion or rejection from some clan members. Its sad that clan cats are so discriminatory but its not just a racism-equivalent, outsiders really do pose a threat. Kittypets don't typically come in with skills to survive and need to be taught, while in the mean time they are still taking up resources. Loners and rogues, on the other hand, well, I need only look to what happened with Scourge and forward. Loners and rogues cause more trouble than the clans do between themselves it seems. All in all, there are a lot of reasons to not be fond of outsiders from several angles.
@@tiiny_2576 But I actually do love Brackenfur cx he seems like a really chill guy and very kind-hearted. He's still one of my top faves and probably always will be.
Moonkitti: ranting
Ocelot: *Chirp*
c h i r p
c h i r p
c h i r p
c h i r p
Ocelot: I too must rant
I never cared about Brambestar. I didn't even care when reading his POV in A New Prophecy. I honestly don't even remember what he did that was good in that arc. And I always thought he was so mean to Squirrelflight when he found out she lied to him. He's a big jerk! And when I read Bramblestar's Storm, he went from a character I didn't care about, to one of the warrior cats I HATE. He truly is the worst.
Honestly I just didn't want to read any of his chapters in ANP
@@ohoh8454 i straight up didn’t read his series
@@ohoh8454 just said “nope” and stopped reading after the second book,still haven’t after two years.
Bruh in the second series when I was new to the books I literally just SKIPPED his chapters and skipped to Leafpaw’s (I think it was her) chapters. Like, they were incredibly boring, honestly.
Yeah this is why I stopped reading warriors. Once Brambleclaw/star became the protagonist I felt the story went from a classic hero tale to a horrible inconsistent mess with now ableism, forced religions, normalized abusive relationships, sexism and no choice in a persons destiny. what ever happened to simple character archs and plots that still teach a lesson without forcing it down your throat
Honestly yeah.
It would be awesome to have a protagonist that rejects all of these issues, bc they have been a problem in like every single arc
i stopped reading the series after squilf's hope.. it really messed me up inside after i just had a bad abuse situation with a family member
that’s so true. after brambleclaw became protagonist it became messy, drama-filled and annoying.
i agree with some of the things you said but not all of them. Personally I think the formula just got old.
This is why when I revisit Warriors I don't go any further past A Vision Of Shadows. The series has gotten way to complicated going further than just Clan cats living under the guidance of their ancestors it's now going in all different directions like POSESSION?! Have they really run out of ideas that they now dig in to all this supernatural stuff why can't it just be simple anymore with a character vs a villain with no big plot holes left
And this is why Squirrel saw no difference when Ashfur took over Bramble's body. Ha ha.
:'(
Haha.... :,(
I keep reading this in the voice of chuck white from American dad
**laughs at own sad joke**
Me: hahaha yeah…
ʏᴇᴀʜ... (;´༎ຶٹ༎ຶ`)
What...?
@@LocalFloppa. Go away, nobody likes you
(Just kidding I like you so far…)
After Kate Cary very recently tried to say that Squrriel and Bramble are on the save level. He's not capable of abuse and to honorable. I finally sat down to watch this, and I don't understand how anyone can't see the abuse in this book. Meant or not trying to deny it just makes things worst. Its really so awful to see how often this comes up
The video was amazing and so thought out. Thank you for making this Moonkitti
these authors are so fucking horrible how do you destroy the plot and rules of a series this severely...
may I ask where you read/heard about kate cary saying this?
Because she’s running something else and other people are basically going around and screwing with it for their own reasons are because I think the book will sell better whatever she can’t even name characters without them changing it on her Twigbranch was supposed to be Twigshade But they changed it on her
If Kate Cary disagrees with this argument, the someone need to show her this video & give a smack of common sense, make her & the other authors see what they wrote about an abusive relationship that they let it go on for years.
I wish I could just re write all of these books because they tricked us into thinking Bramblestar would be good and he wasn't. Now everyone is saying they don't like Squirrelflight. If you're going to say she's just as bad as him- can you at least write it into the book? What on earth Erin Hunter Team!
I feel like bramblestar wasted squirrelflight's life
YESSS And it's soo sad bc Squirrelflight could've done so much
@@purple6242 chill, she won’t die tomorrow 🤣
@@megara83 she almost did tho
@@tigerdiamond2486 lmao
@@megara83 yeah she could still live for way more books, i mean look at graystripe hfks