Frecklewish Logic
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- Опубликовано: 24 дек 2021
- sorry if this reignites the whole thing OTL
link to kirikerise's video: • does frecklewish deser...
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Apparently the body of that Mapleshade paragraph is from the ultimate guide, but unsourced. Dubious information when everything we actually see of her is the opposite lol
Merry Christmas Moonkitti have a great day too
Merry Christmas Moonkitti!!! 💜✨🐈😄🎁🎄
imma have to check this
Merry Christmas!
Meowy Christmas ⛄🎄😻
Absoluely love that Ashfur attempted murder multiple times and went to heaven, and Frecklewish didn't drown herself trying to save kittens and went to hell for it
It really is some "Jayfeather murdered Flametail" logic
@@blondeashfur3445 YO I KNEW IT
THE POWER OF BRIBERY
Ashfur and Mudclaw were right!!!
He just loved too hard 🙄🙄🙄😱😱😱
Unfortunately, I think Frecklewish was thrown into the dark forest because of the fandom. For years, the fandom wanted some cat to pay the price for what happen to Mapleshade’s kits besides Mapleshade. Personally, I think Oakstar and Appledusk would have been better choices. Fecklewish is a random choice. Strangely, I can understand every single cat’s reaction in Mapleshade’s Vengeance including Mapleshade. The part that really upset me was that Mapleshade wasn’t allow to bury her kits or sit vigil for them and no cat tried to protest on her behalf when it came to that.
RiverClan, in my opinion, is justified to not allow her access to her children’s’ bodies. She had just killed them through her carelessness, and there was no reason for them to let her do so. Whether or not she was grieving too, she had just killed them, and therefore lost that right.
@@sodadile I’m not that heartless, but I’m not a character from the book. I do see your point. It makes more sense when you put it in those terms. Granted, I personally don’t agree with it, but knowing how many of the cats think, especially during that time, it makes sense.
@@CrazyWarriorCatLady that’s fine!! It’s just important to acknowledge that they weren’t completely spiteful and horrible for not letting Maple see them.
@@sodadile Oh, I definitely acknowledge that. The only one that was truly spiteful in Mapleshade’s Vengeance was…well, Mapleshade, especially when she killed Ravenwing, Frecklewish, and Appledusk for revenge. Although, she was grief stricken, and, given her inability to take responsibility for her actions, she was probably suffering with some kind of a mental ailment long before the death of her kits. I don’t think that Riverclan or their leader are spiteful in their actions. It reminds me of religions that excommunicate certain members for “breaking rules”. In their eyes, they are doing it out of love and concern because they believe these members will not make it into Heaven unless they are forced to change their ways and get back into God’s good graces. The people outside of their religion see it as cruel and barbaric because they are splitting up families and giving these banned members the cold shoulder/silent treatment unless they repent. Now, again, it doesn’t make any of these actions right and many will not agree with it, but it does allow for different insights into the matter. This creates a different type of understanding while maintaining your own personal underlining views. It is all about perception. For most, perception is reality and reality is based on perception. The good thing is, there will be inevitable changes made to try and remedy the mistakes of the past. Mapleshade’s Vengeance is a prime example of how love/hate and grief can cloud someone’s judgement and lead to serious consequences.
Sorry, my doctoral brain took over. You’re right. That is the point I am making.
@@CrazyWarriorCatLady No, you were right beforehand, it was incredibly fucked up that they didn't let Mapleshade sit vigil with her kits. She made an incredibly stupid decision in the heat of the moment, but so did Frecklewish. People will go to honestly uncomfortable lengths to punish Mapleshade for things she did before she started killing people.
Honestly I find it funny how popular a side character from a novella got
well she was somewhat big considering how much maple built her up to be this evil baby killer. plus her death was very brutal and is mentioned in one or two other books which is more than a lot of side characters can say. But yes, it is quite amusing
My thoughts exactly. I think this is all because the warriors wiki said she was in the dark forest, which may or may not be accurate
@@blondeashfur3445 apparently it was confirmed on the official family tree out of nowhere
Mapleshade: *Willingly makes her kits cross the river*
Also Mapleshade: "How could Frecklewish have let *helpless kits* drown???"
Mapleshade in this book is the living embodiment of that meme and its great.
Mapleshade, like frecklewish, would have no information on the river and when a flash flood would happen. Neither are Riverclan and it was getting dark, where we’re they supposed to go? The kits wasn’t Mapleshade’s fault fully it was at least an accident. (This is my opinion)
However, ya Frecklewish is innocent here. She couldn’t swim, what the heck was she supposed to do? Jump in and possibly drown too. What the heck was that gonna accomplish?
@@melodysmusicaladventures596 Like Moonkitti said earlier in the video Mapleshade did have options. She could have gone on the bridge, to four trees, to twolegplace or anywhere else for that matter. The only person that is undeniably responsible for her kits drowning in the river is Mapleshade herself.
@@melodysmusicaladventures596 the river was very obviously dangerous even in calm conditions, and there was a massive storm overhead. She could’ve gone to fourtrees, used the bridge, waited for a patrol, or gone to twolegplace. Their deaths were Mapleshade’s fault.
There was a twoleg bridge next to them too.. they didn't have to cross the river
It would be interesting to see a video about the sexism in Warriors. Moonkitti has mentioned it a lot, and it's not exactly a hidden thing. the warrior series has a huge problem with female characters in terms of writing them and in terms of the fandom's response to them. Frecklewish is a prime example here. She was the only girl who wronged Mapleshade in Mapleshade's eyes (if you don't count Reedshine who could sort of be counted as someone Maple hated too, but not with anything to do with the death of her kits) and she is the only one to go to the Dark Forest. The Warriors literal version of hell. Moonkitti has pointed it out perfectly. The two male cats in the book who had more power over Maple and the decision of the kits, went to Star Clan with no fuss but Frecklewish deserved it more? Find that hard to believe.
Not sure how unpopular this opinion is, but I strongly disagree with the notion that Frecklewish being sent to the DF is a product of sexism. It’s something that looks plausible within the framework of Mapleshade’s Vengeance, but not really beyond that; Rainflower abused her son but resides in StarClan. Russetfur watched Berrykit struggling in a fox trap and went to StarClan. Leopardstar was complicit in letting Stormkit and Featherkit be murdered. If the wiki’s correct, Vicky has also stated she believes Lizardstripe resides in StarClan (which normally I wouldn’t take as fact, but when weighing against a random addendum on the family tree I’d surmise holds equal if not more weight). We don’t know if the change was made by someone who reads Warriors and is caught up on lore or some disgruntled intern who only skimmed pages. I can understand folks being upset but I’m hesitant to assert the change is a product of sexist themes either in Warriors or the fandom.
@@kelinky-sama1603 I wouldn't say that the books are inherently or intentionally sexist, but I do think that there's some sexism in the community. Look at how people treated Dovewing, Squirrelflight, Ferncloud, and Daisy, just for things like not wanting to be with a certain cat, or wanting to care for kits rather than fight. Ferncloud literally got killed off because the fans hated her so much. Things are changing now, but female characters have always tended to get picked on a lot more than male characters. Frecklewish and Reedshine in particular always seem to get singled out by fans even though they're both comparatively innocent. (Not to mention the fact that Mapleshade herself has a motivation that literally only ever exists for female characters, which is sort of a sexist trope in and of itself because you'd never see a male villain go insane and evil for losing their children like that. Why couldn't she have a backstory that wasn't just an overly dramatic version of forbidden love drama?)
That’s why I have an au where almost everything aside from shitty writing mistakes is the same except Firestar and Jayfeather are mollies. Firestar is in a gay relationship with Sandstorm (and she wasn’t obsessed with Spottedleaf just had a short lived one sided crush on her) she and Sandstorm are eachother only loves (Spottedleaf was just her gay awakening) and Redtail and Lionheart mostly gave her prophecies. Lionheart gave her the Lionclan omen. Jayfeather is a grumpy awkward lesbian and actually went through with being a warrior because fuck ableism.
The thing is, the characters you mentioned that have done bad things and went to StarClan further proves the point that Frecklewish shouldn’t be in StarClan. And also, on this occasion, there is 2 toms who have more blame on their shoulders and could have been sent to the dark forest, but weren’t. And, a third thing, all of the characters that you mentioned had far more redeeming qualities and tales that the bad things you mentioned, and other bad things they may have participated in. Leopardstar, for example, led her clan through many hard times for about 4 years after she let them be killed. She was a great clan leader, who did many great things for her clan. If on a scale, the good would outweigh the bad by many kilograms.
@@thishuman1621 Wait, how did they prove that Freckle SHOULDN'T be in StarClan? All it proves is that StarClan's process is arbitrary bullshit. Or was it a typo?
people saying that frecklewish should have tried to save the kits 1. SHE CANT SWIM, and 2. its shown clearly that she is left hollow and traumatized by her brothers death. her brother drowned, in that same river, i believe. so thats another reason she didnt go in.
100% agree with this Frecklewish should go to starclan if Oakheart is there!
ALSO iirc a riverclan patrol was passing by so freckle thought they would save maple and the kits
And even if she did try to save the kits, her life would be added to those at risk of drowning. Plus with, what you said, her brother drowning before, she'd be traumatized and want to avoid getting closer to try to save the kits.
In her case, it was a lose-lose situation; Attempt to save the kits and potentially meet the same fate as her brother, or having no choice to break the Warrior code, whether she wanted to or not.
Honestly, I want to see that scene in Frecklewish's perspective to know what was going on in her mind, how she was feeling and thinking, cause with Mapleshade's perspective and her being entitled... Yeahhh, no.
@@strivingsol1816 tbh, even if frecklewish did try and save the kits mapleshade would've yelled at her anyway for not trying hard enough to save them or something.
@@lumeanoastra1252 when a raging river was going on? a raging river that was loud asf? no way would they hear her, would be completely damn useless
i think the saddest thing is that frecklewish being in the dark forest means she never got to see her brother again
holy crap that’s so sad :(
NOO THIS MAKES ME SO SAD TO THINK ABOUT
@@RIPPEDEYEZ ngl i think the kits might be horrified of her a bit, since she's a killer, y'know? which is going to be so heartbreaking for mapleshade, she did it all for her kits, and then they fear her... (this is just a headcanon tho)
@@RIPPEDEYEZ yuewhifehwfjl im sorry i didnt read the previous comments! but absolutely, she would want to meet up with the kits!
Well imagine just how bad it is with Mapleshade, she was literally willing to off three cats just to avenge her kits, she nearly died herself trying to save them, she loved she kits more than she loved Appledusk to an extent, but she just got plopped into hell, she didn't get a chance to actually see her kits happy or safe or to even realize "oh shit I was hallucinating what the hell have i done"
I always thought she's fixated on the steppingstones because in her deluded state she was thinking of Appledusk and where they met. Honestly it seems like Mapleshade built her life around her messed up forms of love(i. e. Her toxic relationship with Appledusk, her over possessiveness of her kits, and the fact that she relied on Frecklewish so much she began to love her as a tool). To me it feels like she never had a healthy relationship in her life, which can cause real people to be in similar messed up relationships. To Mapleshade , the people around her are objects: Appledusk and her kits are her possessions and Frecklewish and Birchface's name are just tools. She loves her kits and mate and grows to love Frecklewish too, but the only way she knows how to love is by using it as a tool. Frecklewish on the other hand is loved from the day she is born, coming from a family of leaders and beloved by the clan she has never suffered because of the warrior code. Like Mapleshade, she believes herself in the right and that Starclan is just and fair, although, unlike Mapleshade, she believes the warrior code to be their laws. It may be easy to us to see Mapleshade is delusional, but for Frecklewish she has no idea why Mapleshade would lie or even mate outside the clan. She is a family motivated cat and sees Mapleshade as a liar and a danger to her family. She definitely is not perfect but I think I can kinda see where she's coming from in the same way I know where Mapleshade is coming from. I could be entirely of mark but I wanted to add my own two bits.
If anybody read this far I hope you are having a wonderful day!
This is very good!!! However I would like to point out that Mapleshade never loved Frecklewish and very openly shows distaste for her, such as wanting to bat her away when she shows affection towards the kittens!!
Maple didnt love freckle, as stated by queen umbra, she hates freckle. she does love the excuses that are built off freckle and birch tho, anyway, hav a nice day ^w^
people who take the time to read this are amazing and you took the time to write this and I respect you for that! Also you have a point about real life where it can cause people to be messed up at some times depending on what happens with it.
I actually never considered it like that? I actually love that!
@@sodadile I don't think Mapleshade meant anything to Frecklewish *personally* it's just that she hates any cats who show affection towards *her* kits
every warrior cats youtuber's christmas gift for us, talking about frecklewish
It’s a frecklewish kind of Christmas, yknow?
@@spyritsolz exactly XD
XD
ikr even bright guardian akira
this video made me realize that this book really is a 'no one actually knows what happened' situation, we also need to remember this is only one cats POV, we dont get anyone elses. I also wanted to add onto the "why didnt Frecklewish call for help point" the distance between Thunderclan and the river is pretty big. By the time she would have gotten to Thunderclan for help, the kits would have been dead anyway. You could argue that Freckle could use the bridge but the distance is still a thing, we also have to remember that every clan is hostile and untrusting of eachother, she probably would been stopped by a patrol, which would have wasted even more time. There was just nothing she could have done to save them, it was a lost cause
Not to mention that the pov of the book is from possibly the most unreliable source of the entire story considering shes a manipulator. She refuses to take blame for anything she does meaning she could definitely be portraying everyone else in a worse light than the reality
It's really funny that even Mapleshade's own children, essentially elementary aged children, could read the environment and tell that her plan to have them cross the river was a crackpot idea.
And if we excuse the death of Maple's kits because she was so full of grief she didn't see the true danger that the river posed...why does Frecklewish not get that same emotional coupon when it comes to insulting the kits she found out belonged to her brother's murderer.
Like seriously, imagine going to a rapid river to swim when you don't know how to and your *kindergarden-aged* children are the ones who point out that that probably isn't a good idea. How can someone who hardly knows how to count to 50 (considering I said they were kindergardeners it's probably going to be 15 at max) be more reasonable than a fully grown adult that went through all 13 years of school? Everyone, no matter their age (or mental state; surely Maple would've had her kits' safety as her top priority??) should know not to try to swim in a raging river with your 3 tiny children, all 4 of you not knowing how to swim. That's something that your parents should tell you if you life within a mile of a river, which the ThunderClan cats do. Their territory goes right next to the river.
Sorry for ranting
I haven't read the book, but it really sounds like the sanest answer?
Like Frecklewish was with them since they were born, believing that they were the last thing left of her brother, only to find out that on top of everything they were the children of the cat that killed his brother and student, anyone would break at that moment.
And the fact that she even felt bad for the kittens, when she could just have not care, she really seems like a tragic character, she lost her family, she was deceived and then she died to go to the darkforest, poor cat.
I like how the same thing happens with Bluefur when she's taking her own kits to cross the river. Kits just like "waah is cold!" Her just like "we got this" only for a kit to die when it could've been avoided.
Not liking the kits dad doesn't give her the right to watch them drown, she knew maple shade was gonna cross the river, she knew the kids would die and she just watched
@@llamaarmy7501ike, the only thing she could do is just run to Maple with "WAIT, DON'T GO THERE, IT'S FLOODING". But when Maple didn't listen to her own kit, I don't think she would listen to Frecklewish
I’m just kind of in shock that there are TWO cats named Frecklewish, despite the fact that both Freckle and Wish are both either non existent or incredibly rare names in the warriors universe. Like… what happened when writing these books lmao
I have a theory that they have two dartboards with prefixes and suffixes on them and whatever they land on is the name for both random background cats and some main characters.
And may I just say; Kitescratch.
That name has always annoyed me. Like, cats don't know what a kite IS, dang it.
Oh, and Maggottail. Terrible name, that.
@@thegreatauthoress4570 There are birds called kites. I'm not sure if they in the same place warriors takes place in tho.
@@disloqate8063 Oh, okay. Pretty sure Warriors is set in England (?) and according to Wikipedia, kites do live there. Forgot kite birds were a thing lol.
@@catandrobbyflores That's hilarious and I hope it's true.
Mapleshade’s Vengeance made me appreciate unreliable narrator stories. It’s also why I like Joker. They both make you feel bad for them even though they were mentally ill and did terrible things, and yet something doesn’t seem right from their POV of the story. Gotta love how some people would be like “it manipulates the reader into feeling bad for her” and I’m like “THAT’S THE POINT?!?! She is known to be manipulative!”
“No cat must neglect a kit in pain” and yet Maple’s kits died because of her not being aware of their health, only that they are in danger and yet blamed Freckle. Maple neglected to see that her kits were dying or just simply endangered them. “No cat must neglect a kit” With that logic, Oakstar deserved more to be damned
If you want to try another novel with the "unreliable narrator" theme, I'd recommend reading One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey. I won't try to spoil too much but the narrator is a patient in a mental hospital in the 1950's living through events leading up to his mental and physical freedom. Absolutely loved reading it after I got through what felt like a slow pacing.
The Yellow Wallpaper is also a fantastic (and haunting) look on insanity and depression, with another unreliable narrator. It's also a short story.
Where they sick
@@yawninglion1677 Thank you! 🙏
@@MT-mb6dk Ooh that’s interesting! Thank you! 🙏
I love how there’s this incredibly deep analysis of child death and abuse and characters going to hell and then there’s just Christmas music in the background
I always figured that Frecklewish saw Mapleshade slip and had a series of thoughts something along the lines of "oh, no, the water level is too high! The kits! I've got to go get help! Thunderclan doesn't swim, but with enough of us, we might be able to save them... oh, thank Starclan, there's a Riverclan patrol! They'll save them." And then got back to camp, figuring Riverclan would let the Mapleshade leave with her kits after the rescue.
Frankly, the novella was a great read and a fun study in dealing with an unreliable narrator... problem was, it sounds like some folks with just a little too much digital power didn't know that? Great video, it really explained some fantastic points for readers to be aware of.
That seems quite in character!!
i feel like the maggot belly map is bringing a lot of light to this topic and thats rlly cool becaise frecklewish gets a rlly undeserved rep of being "as bad as mapleshade", aka, the _MURDERER_
edit: something else im going to add, is that people tend to forget that mapleshades vengeance, and anything that isnt a direct quote of another character, is extremely unreliable because of the way maple spins things in her favor, even in her head. did maple say freckle let those kits die? well maple probably now hates freckle because she isnt of use anymore. mapleshafes vengeance has a similar problem to spottedleafs heart where its almost written too well for a part of its audience. also, moon if ur reading, i think a vid on sol or hawkfrost would be cool, as theyre favorite villains of mine in the way they differ from the other villains.
edit 2: someone in the comments isnt understanding something, if someone asks you something and you stay silent and let them keep believing that you are lying. its very easy to say "i dont want to answer", "i dont want to say", "no", etc. mapleshade lied by omission of letting freckle play into her own hope of her _recently dead_ brother leaving a lineage.
In my opinion, they both aren’t th best, maybe not equally, but in my eyes, they both suck. Maple shade is a murderer who definitely deserves to go to the dark forest, while frecklewish is (still a jerk), but honestly can go to starclan. Frecklewish should know what she did, but should go to starclan
@@Borzoink Frecklewish didn't hang around long enough to see the kittens even start to cross the river. She had no hand in their deaths. In fact, she had a huge hand in raising them initially, bringing Mapleshade whatever she wanted and playing with the kits. She was a good honorary aunt, and did little to nothing wrong
@@kassi-opeia I mean, she's objectively a jerk in a lot of ways. Calling the kittens half-born creatures just as moonkitti pointed out, and attacking a queen. She's just not as bad as a literal murderer.
@@baasparkopenings851 I can see Frecklewish being a jerk at points, but with a few things, I think she had a good reason to be one, such as with her attacking Mapleshade. She was, in a way, lied to, thinking that Mapleshade's kits being her late brother's kits as well. Even though Mapleshade didn't claim that they were Birchface's kits and Frecklewish just assumed, she didn't try to deny it either.
As with the Half-born creatures thing, clan cats at the time were very against kits born from two cats of different clans(as they are the result of breaking the Warrior Code), and the fact that Mapleshade's kits were the children of the cat that indirectly killed her brother, I can see the added malice from Frecklewish.
Yes, she shouldn't have been that much of a jerk as she did, but she had good reason to be so upset. Plus, she didn't go out on a killing spree unlike Mapleshade.
@@baasparkopenings851 she was only a jerk when she found out mapleshade lied to her about her dead brother being mapleshade's kit's dad. that's a good reason to be upset, she had an outburst. she said something bad like twice. she called the kits "half clan creatures" because she felt betrayed, obviously that doesn't make what she said okay. then she said "i wish you had died" when mapleshade literally accused her of being glad the kits were dead. her being a jerk twice isn't that good of a reason to hate her lmaoo.
Mapleshade's entire character can be summed up as "cool motive, still murder" and it's half funny half frustrating that people want to give her a pass for making her kids play in traffic lmao
Again. A Thunderclan cat doesnt understand the river. So both Maple a d Freckle arent responsible for the river becouse they thought the kits would swim.
@@grimmcorvid5713 multiple cats told Maple that the river was dangerous, including cats who do know the river
@@grimmcorvid5713 on three completely separate occasions, she was told repeatedly that the river was dangerous. Her own baby child said that it looked really dangerous before going in. In the SAME BOOK, two cats from her own clan DIED in that river in much calmer weather conditions mind you. Her (ex) boyfriend was a RIVERclan cat, who I'm sure has probably talked with her about the river at length before while they were hanging out all sneaky like together. Firestar, a kittypet turned thunderclan cat.. has always explored excessive caution in regards to the river, out of pure common sense because he has barely any river knowledge either. It is not a "thunderclan no understand river bad", it's a "mapleshade dumb, frecklewish big brain" situation. Could you make a point that Mapleshade wasn't in her right mind, delirious and overwhelmed with shock and grief after just losing her clan and being exiled with her three tiny children during a big storm, and ended up making poor choices? Yes, you could do that. You could even say that she was not in her right mind because she was frantic about reaching appledusk to get comfort and stability in her partner after the confrontation, and finding somewhere safe for her children.
HOWEVER, that does not mean her poor choices are just wish washed away because there was excuses attached to them. It's still her fault, and her fault alone that she made tiny children climb into a river they spoke up about being afraid of, before the river ate them.
@@grimmcorvid5713 Mapleshade knows very well that cats can die in the river, two cats died from it somewhat recently in the book. Even if she wasn't thinking or didn't know, she's still responsible. Don't mess with things you don't understand. If I didn't know that I was supposed to wear a seatbelt and drive at the speed limit, it's still my fault if I or someone else gets injured because I decided to drive a car.
I was absolutely shocked to hear that Brightflower(Yellowfang's mum) and Frecklewish were in the dark forest. It's similar to why I was mad that Juniperclaw was in the df. Not because oh I like this character so that absolves them of all their crimes. That's not my issue. My issue is that cats like Frecklewish, Juniperclaw, Ect get sent to df while cats who are just as bad or worse like Clear sky, Onestar, Rainflower, Oakstar, Ect get to be in Starclan.
I have the idea that leaders, deputies and med cats get let off the hook unless they do something like murder or destroying the clans or training children which is why there's only like 2 leaders that we know of in the df even though there are a lot more of them that should be in the dark forest if not risking your life in a flooding river because you may not know children are dying or attempted poisoning with the thought in mind that it was the right thing (Note: Juniperclaw is not in the right for what he did but his crimes are far less than other cats(hell Mudclaw is in a similar boat. He plotted an aku which could have ended with multiple cats dead and he thought he was doing the right thing too) andd Juniperclaw is treated like the lowest scum (even by df cats) when there are far worse cats in the df.
In conclusion, Starclan is absolutely corrupt about a lot of things
Don't worry about Brightflower, that was retconned because the fan who submitted that headcanon was a bitch and they didn't want to associate with her anymore.
That said, just what does it say about StarClan that not only would a fan think Brightflower would be banished to the Dark Forest, but the Erins would just about accept it as _canon_ for a time?
@@graphitetailgrace3870 OK in glad that Brightflower is not in Starclan because she was an actual good mother to her kids(the worst she did was get mad at Yellowfang when Brokenstar lied and said that she killed Mintkit and Marigoldkit. And that was likely fueled by grief)
But Starclan as a whole is just very corrupt. They let cats who cause so many issues for them into the clans but then send cats with equal or lesser crimes to cat hell. Refuse to treat df cats who helped them with any dignaty, just acting like their a piece of gun stuck to their shoe. And they punish cats for things that they encouraged (the whole thing with Leafpool and Squirrelflight, both of which had Starclan go 'hey do this' (they even have cats who broke the code, yellowfang, bluestar, Ect be the ones in charge of the trial)
It does not surprise me that ashfur got in at all because these cats just don't have common sense (most of them anyway. I have hope there are some sensable cats in the dark forest but we just don't see them cause they don't have aa high enough rank or whatever system Starclan goes on
TY FOR MENTIONING CLEAR SKY! THAT GUY IS DOG WATER 2.0
If Ashfur didn't go to hell why would Frecklewish?? Ashfur was WORSE. He betrayed his clan by conspiring with Hawkfrost to kill Firestar, tried to kill 3 innocent cats because he was pissed off his gf dumped him after dating for 2 weeks, and then he came back from the dead to torment her and his former clan and to disrupt the balance of the clans. And what she did wasn't bad compared to the murderers and traitors of the dark forest cats
EXACTLY
Ashfur got in because Yellowfang was biased. This is canon, confirmed somewhere.
“You’re only saying that cause Moonkitti did..” WELL YEAH, she makes good points, has good reasoning, and is awesome, so…
yea. i hate ppl who use that argument. besides, moonkitti presents evidence from the text, those ppl do not. although, i had my opinions on bramblestar, squilf, frecklewish, mapleshade and oakstar before moon's vids. she just strengthened em
"no, i had these thoughts before but when Moonkitti addresses it, I feel safer to state those opinions now and not get as worried to be attacked for having a differing opinion"
@Moon I'm confused here-
I'm not seriously into moonkitti, but she actually gives proof, text evidence and even actual cat facts like how far they can hear-
So I'm confused on why you think she doesn't?
If anyone in an argument, uses actual proof and stuff, then they tech do-
I find that if we are to believe based on the books that Mapleshade is this stubborn character who always believes she is right then her choice to go to the river makes some sense. She was just exiled, proven wrong on how she thought the reveal was going to go (as stated by Moonkitti), so in her head she still wants to believe she is right and decides to cross the river desperate to believe this idea. On top of her just being in a bad place mentally
The whole novella was just Mapleshade making blunder after blunder, not the cross clan relationship thing but the fact she intentionally avoided the twoleg bridge farther upstream. They could've gone to riverclan that way, mapleshade would have a chance at becoming a Riverclan cat just to make Oakstar mad.
Mapleshade's last mistake was rejecting Myler's help as she could've lived as a rogue and started over. But the dark forest claimed Mapleshade instead.
Maybe it's just the writing, a lot more could've been developed. I think it takes a lot to go from a mentally stable cat with kits and a future to psychopathic killer with no regard for her life or anybody else's.
@@arcturus9366 You're assuming she was mentally stable to begin with.
@@arcturus9366 I finally found someone WHO MENTIONS THE TWOLEG BRIDGE. While I know Mapleshade's kits needed to like... drown in order for the events in the books to happen... in all honesty. Her whole like, ordeal would have been prevented if she had REMEMBERED THAT BRIDGE EARLIER.
It almost makes me want to cry.
@@Duothimir Even before she was exiled I don't believe she was mentally in the right place
I don't like the "she watched kits drown" argument.
Freckle is thunderclan; thunderclan can't swim. If she tried to go in, most likely she would drown as well. In fact, I'm SURPRISED Maple herself lived, she's usually shown as a cat with lots of fur; how she didn't get weighed down by that is beyond me entirely.
Lets also not forget that besides not knowing how to swim, her brother had just drowned in that same river recently!
@@Cowllies this is true, yes.
@@Cowllies She could have a fear of the river, not wanting to die like her brother.
@@anoushkashenoy692 i headcannon that freckle saw them go under and flashed back to her brother going under, then ran away in uncontrollable terror. but eh, she couldve been doing anything ig
Hey since we're on the topic of cats going to the dark forest and also Mapleshade's fur, I heard she went to the dark forest for suffocating cats in her layers of fluff. A painful way to die
personal headcanon (theory): frecklewish is used as a scapegoat, for the more powerful characters to pin the blame on for the whole mapleshade-situation and the deaths of the kits
That was pretty much my thought on the matter. It paints everyone else involved, including StarClan, in a pretty awful light... but then again, StarClan have not had a great track record in a long time.
The most irritating thing about this whole debate for me is how the fandom has started treating Frecklewish like an innocent baby who did nothing wrong. Don't misunderstand me here, she IS a victim and she's certainly not evil - she had every right to be furious with Mapleshade for tricking her and the rest of the Clan - but there is no justifying her calling the kits "half-Clan creatures." You can explain it in any number of ways, but you CANNOT justify it. Those kits had nothing to do with the circumstances of their birth and loved Frecklewish like a second mother. Frecklewish KNEW that, rage or not, and said what she did anyway.
That said, there was no way she would have been able to rescue the kits from that river either. We can argue she should have told ThunderClan what happened, but we have no way of knowing whether she did or not, which renders the argument moot. Ultimately, we can only assume she did everything she knew to do in that moment. I hate what she said to the kits - and I mean HATE it A LOT - but I doubt she truly wanted them hurt. She did love them like they were her own once, and that kind of love doesn't go away overnight.
So…no. She absolutely does not deserve the Dark Forest, and she's nowhere near as horrible a person as Mapleshade. But saying she did nothing wrong is kind of pushing it and I can't thank you enough for addressing that.
yea. ppl need to stop justifying terrible actions with grief. ppl can like a character or know theyre a victim without justifying said character's actually unjust actions
was looking for this comment lmao. pretty much every adult character in MV handled things poorly and was a shitty person to an extent
@@phantom9111 well except maybe Reedshine who was just kinda there. (forgiving apple was a bad choice tho ig)
@@zrainyday5266 yeah that's def true, which is why i said pretty much instead of "all"
This. Frecklewish is a reprehensible person, but she didn't deserve to die by snakebite and she didn't deserve cat hell; it's not her job to make unbiased judgements, it's Oakstar's.
I personally refuse to believe that Frecklewish was sent to the dark forest by starclan I instead believe that she felt guilty about Mapleshades kits (not that she was to blame at all) and when she found out that Maple was in the dark forest she tried to visit her and she either got stuck in the dark forest and could never find her way out or she decided that she deserved to stay there even though she didn’t and chose to never leave
oh wow i love that headcanon a lot.
"Frecklewish going to hell for being angry about being terminally wounded is a disgusting idea"
This was literally what Vicky said happened to Lilywhisker, so!
Imagine if you wanted to go to StarClan, but then Yellowfang said "Nah, remember that one time you were really pissed off at someone"?
Su Susan said that, according to warriors wiki, and we ALL know not to listen to Su Susan at this point
Are we gonna send Briarlight to hell now? Because that’s what it sounds like.
I once saw a headcanon that Lilywhisker was the cat who killed Badgerfang which would make a little more sense, if memory serves Code of the Clans describes Badgerfang being fatally wounded by a cat as opposed to succumbing to several injuries and, if intentional, fatally wounding what is obviously a young kitten would be pretty cruel. Not sure the timeline works though and it doesn’t make what Su Susann said any less horrible
Edit: Ok yeah it doesn’t remotely work, Lilywhisker is retired by the time *Yellowfang* is a kit
@@lindseylindsey9200 I always assumed the cat who killed Badgerfang was Mudclaw
Russetfur watched Berrykit loose his tail and did nothing and she's in heaven.
Russetfur straight up WATCHED!
Yeah her and an entire patrol were just sitting in a bush watching her struggle
A 30 min long video by moonkitti??? On Christmas??? This has to be the best gift I've ever received lol
The second best is my 2500 sheets of paper >:)
I think a lot of us forget the river is THAT BIG and that's we all collectively assumed a single cat could have saved a full grown adult and a handful of infant cats
yeah lmfao. im gonna be honest i imagined the river as like.. the size of a chome computer layed out in width and then just pretty long. then i watched the video and remembered, that, right, its big enough for a fucking boat to go through
Also you missed the fact that Ravenwing was actually a kid, just a bit older than Nettlepaw :’D he didn’t know, he was under layers of stress and just wanted to make his leader happy
yea. plus that omen seemed intentionally deceiving. i like the idea of birchface sending it
ikr like even tho he messed up interoperating the sign, if you really think about the clan's mindset towards each other (TC and RC's hostility towards each other) then it sort of makes sense why he did what he did. Like ThunderClan is all Anti-RiverClan. He's a little stressed-out kid with more responsibility than he could have take. but it's still responsibility and I wont completely justify what he did, its just understandable and some ppl are out here making him the worst cat ever and that he cannot be redeemed or smth but it makes it feel like they read a different book.
Eyy- And yeah, Ravenwing doesn't deserve the hate he gets.
@@lucilucid ayyyy >:D
@@XxEmpty_EscapexX693 his mentor died prematurely and so he wouldn’t have been completely trained, and there’s no evidence that he wanted it to mean the kits were half clan. It’s more likely that he just made the wrong decision since he’s too young to have that much responsibility
It's crazy how Mapleshade can think to herself "it's not my fault my kits died" while running across a wooden bridge that she could have used instead of the stepping stones, but chose not to for whatever reason. Her kits would have survived had she gone across the bridge, and neither she nor anyone else I've met have ever realized this. She cannot see that she is standing directly on top of a better decision she could have made that would have saved her children.
It isnt her faulth and this just reminds me of the mysoginy in the fandom. Apple gets a pass for breaking the code but She doesnt. Shes a fucking victim before she started killing. Get over it. And She couldnt use the Bridge becouse its on windclan territory plus too far for the kits to walk. And twolegplace Has dogs and cars.
@@grimmcorvid5713 I wouldn’t call her a victim before murdering- but going somewhere close to the two-leg nest possibly would’ve saved them but what can I say for sure? Though it still is pretty much her fault that they're dead. Blaming a river or two other cats just to push fault from herself is what she does throughout that book, quite a lot.
The two-legs have dogs when the authors want them to. That’s another weak excuse as not a single dog was even spotted in that book.
I agree 100%! There is no way Frecklewish could have done anything, and if she did, she would've died along with them and probably distracted the RiverClan cats from rescuing Mapleshade and her kits. Happy Holidays!
I still think kicking kits out the clan is a step to far because the chances of them dying is just so darn likely and the kits themselves have nothing to do with mapleshades poor decisions.
honestly though clan bigotry in general always ruffles my feathers.
I do agree frecklewish isn't completely evil or good and mapleshade certainly could've made better choices but my god why do we have to banish children for the sins of their parents?.
This said I love the idea that frecklewish watched the kits drown that's some juicy drama, like the idea that she was too stunned to move. that she was paralyzed by her own malice and love for these kits all at once that she ended up doing nothing? mmm that's good content. the guilt she would fel deep down about being cruel to them before their final moments too...
huh youtube deleted half of my comment
ooh that is very juicy. my hc is that she saw em go under, flashed back to watching birch and flower die horribly then ran away in uncontrollable terror. but i like the drama of urs
might construct a universe where the kits survived instead
not sure about anyone else though
@@zrainyday5266 i imagine it was kinda like in my pride where nothing was so struck by fear when her brother attacked some other lion because she got flashbacks to when her dad was attacked and killed. nothing froze up and didn't do anything to help. that could've definitely been what frecklewish did 🐎
@@falcon_arkaig Yeah, that probably is what happened. Then she left all shaken up, not staying to see what happened
What if she was as terrified of it as she was on birchfaces death, ALSO hiiii corvus katana the third
You and Bright Guardian Akira uploaded about Frecklewish at the same time xD
Exactly!!!
They did it with Bristlefrost, too… hmmm 🤔
It's because of the recent discourse surrounding Frecklewish. Moonkitti and Akira posting videos about her around the same time is not that big of a coincidence
Tbh, StarClan failed BOTH Frecklewish AND Mapleshade (and the kits!).
Mapleshade is clearly a villain and an unreliable narrator so we can't trust what she says or believes. But... Throughout the series we have seen lots of forbidden relationships, but never one treated as harshly and callously as the one she had. We have seen cats treated differently because of those relationships or be punished for them (Greystripe, Leafpool), but StarClan itself didn't meddle in them. The closest we have to StarClan involving itself in a forbidden romance is Feathertail, but that was Tribe of Endless Hunting (who doesn't care) and wasn't related to the relationship. StarClan took an active role in meddling here, and did so in a very rough way.
Instead of talking directly to Mapleshade or Appledusk, they go through the medicine cat as normal... And tell him to talk to a leader with some big red flag qualities. That leader, due to his personal investment in the situation, takes it personally and goes directly to rash action or exiling Mapleshade and her children who are not old enough to care for themselves at all. They gave no guidance for a more humane approach. And with the rash action by Thunderclan leadership, it seems like even if Mapleshade was a more honest character and told the truth as soon as her pregnancy was known, she still would have been exiled.
How StarClan failed Frecklewish is more obvious. They will let in Ashfur, who attempted murder multiple times? They'll let in Hollyleaf (as they should) after she murdered a cat who StarClan thought was good enough to join their ranks? They let in Clear Sky/Skystar after all the death and suffering he directly caused? Hell, they gave Brokenstar and Tigerstar I become leaders after they killed to gain power. And all the other questionable actions of Starclan...
Moral of the story: StarClan sucks.there are some good cats in it, but as a whole they suck.
Mapleshade was only treated so callously because she lied to them with the name of their dead friend/family member. The punishment would have most likely been far less harsh if she hadn’t manipulated all of them.
@@sodadile yeah, she couldve just used her right to say she'd be raising them alone. it worked on beetail and freckle asked politely and shyly so its not like she wouldve pushed further had she been let down.
@@sodadile Are you going to reply to every single comment with "Mapleshade lied and manipulated everyone?" Frecklewish and Oakstar did the whole "It's Birchface, right? Right? It's totally Birchface" thing on their own. They banished her because her babydaddy was Appledusk and they outright say it.
@@8x13Wolf can you chill out? I am discussing cats on a discussion video. They did not do it on their own. Frecklewish asked once, very politely, and Mapleshade lied by omission and reinforced the belief. Frecklewish and Oakstar did not push it on her. I restate, they did not do this by themselves. They asked and she allowed them to believe it, when she could have corrected them and said she was not going to reveal the father, as is her right. Of course they were upset that the father was Appledusk, however that anger was pushed further by her manipulation.
@@8x13Wolf mapleshade lied by omission, she didn't deny anything. frecklewish was a grieving cat that was desperate to have anything left of her brother. that's why she was so attached to maple's kits.
Ashfur tried to burn kits alive and went to starclan but our girl freckle goes to TDF
To be completely fair - Holly, Lion and Jay were full grown cats.
@@nyabis8044 still doesn't justify attempt murder (he's done it twice!) but yeah I see ppl use 'kits' and probably because squirlf mentioned them as like 'these are not my kits' but yes they are full grown cats.
Same with Russetfur, who ignored Berrykit, is still in StarClan. Other questionable cats were still in StarClan so the whole heaven vs hell system is flawed and stupid :(
@@nyabis8044 soo just because they're adults doesn't mean it was attempted murder?? its still bad because he tried to KILL them
I think they were trying to say it was still, horrible and unjustified, but they weren't, like, little babies. So technically it's not the attempted murder of kittens, but attempted murder of young adults.
Frecklewish jumping into the river to save the kits when the RiverClan patrol is closer and already handling it is like running into a burning building to rescue the people inside when the firefighters are already there and putting things out and sending people in. All you're gonna do is pass out from smoke inhalation and make the firefighters have to rescue you when they could be rescuing the trapped family. The firefighters have on suits and masks made to allow them to safely enter a burning building to rescue people. You do not. If you see a burning building, you call the fire department, not put it out yourself. In Frecklewish's case, the "fire department" is already there. The people who can handle the situation are already doing so, so she likely left upon seeing that.
I'm probably one of the very few who see the situation with Appldusk in this way, but when Mapleshade told him she was going to raise the kits alone, I took that as her breaking up with him? So then when it was revealed that Reedshine was his mate, I wasn't like "OH MYGOD, he cheated on Mapleshade." I was like "well, they're not together anymore, so who cares?" But like, the hate that was piled on Reedshine just for being Appledusk's new girlfriend was ridiculous and shows how unhinged this fandom can be about certain things. Like, let's blame Reedshine for things that happened, when she did nothing. And while we're at it, let's blame the apprentice who killed Mapleshade in self defense as if she wasn't absolutely batshit crazy, but also let's pretend Mapleshade is this perfect little uwu angel who can do no wrong.
Like, no, Mapleshade did a lot wrong and so many in the fandom don't see it??
THIS!!!! I AGREE.
Yeah, the hate for Reedshine is a little digusting.
@@yawninglion1677 it is! It was very concerning. I saw quite a bit of it on the Snail Patchkit AU map. It was surprising. Like Reedshine literally does nothing but exist and everyone hated her.
I think the reason Mapleshade was upset was because it turned out Appledusk was mates with Reedshine WHILE he was with her. Also she's very obsessive but ignoring that-
Plus, Appledusk wasn't around when she said she would raise them alone, unless you count at the gathering when she said she'd wait to tell the parentage.
Honestly, my opinion on Appledusk was that he was a filthy cheater but wasn't a terrible person. I believe he cared about the kits, but I also believe he felt guilty for what he'd done since he's so loyal to his clan. My hc is that in the confrontation in Riverclan he was overblowing how he felt because he was mad at Mapleshade and didn't want to get in trouble. He was partly shifting the blame.
This isn't me saying that your idea is wrong btw, just putting my two cents in. Mapleshade and Appledusk are complicated like a lot of events in the book, so a lot of it is up for interpretation. Appledusk may very well have gotten together with Reedshine officially after the kits were born
People who vilify Ravenwing and Frecklewish worry me, because to hear them talk, it sounds like these two conspired the kits’ intentional murders purely out of spite for sweet, innocent little Mapleshade. They worry me because it sets forth the argument that, if pushed to a limit by someone, you than get a pass for violent, possibly deadly, retaliation against them. These people are the same ones that worship the Joker as a god and have a list that they threaten people with despite never saying what said list is.
To be blunt, most people defending Mapleshade are children. Adults who never grew out of that mindset however are terrifying for sure.
A few years ago I was partially of this mindset, I knew mapleshade was in the wrong from the start, but I was pretty vitriolic towards frecklewish a while back. I understand better now, but I still think she definitely could have at least TRIED to help, we see in the book that appledusk helps mapleshade out by pushing out a stick for her to grab onto, even if frecklewish couldn’t swim, she could have tried that, or maybe attempt to call out for riverclan or thunderclan to help? Though, she could have just been frozen with fear or something, and again, she’s not even close to being on the same level as mapleshade and oakstar.
Edit: finished watching the video, yeah, I kinda understand why she didn´t do either of these things now. Again, she definitely didn´t deserve the dark forest, the most downright awful thing she did was verbally attack the kids, an while I do think she should have gotten a slap on the wrist for that, being sent to CAT HELL is NOT the same as a slap on the wrist.
Literally. The fact that people demonize Ravenwing concerns me. He’s not Leafpool. However Medicine cats do make mistakes and misinterpret omens and he’s only to blame partially, but he’s not deserving of being in the DF as some people claimed
@mrdoe97 Starclan demanded a father to kill his own kit and when he didn't do it, proceeded to freak him out until he left the clan.
I would not put it past them to banish kits.
@mrdoe97 I think it was in a mix of Bluestar's Prophecy and Pinestar's Choice.
It's briefly touched on, but I want to say it very clearly:
*ThunderClan cats cannot swim.*
Or at least not well. RiverClan is the only clan that is any good in the water. That's their whole thing. Frecklewish's brother died in the river when it was in a much less dangerous state. Frecklewish would have surely died while it was flooded and moving much faster than usual.
I used to be a lifeguard. If person A was drowning, and Person B, who does not know how to swim, was standing on the shore watching, person B would not be obligated to risk their life to save Person A. In fact, they would be actively discouraged from trying. (Unless they could do it without getting in the water. Like throwing a floatation device into the water. But the cats don't have these) Because the most likely ending to that scenario is two people drown instead of one. You're actively making more work for the lifeguard/trained person trying to save Person A, because now they have to save both of you.
It doesn't matter if Frecklewish was happy to watch children die (which I doubt). Because it is not on her conscience to save them.
And the above is only relevant if you believe Frecklewish witnessed the kits die. Which I don't believe she did based on later conversations in the book.
X cuts myself off before I just repeat the entire video X
If frecklewish jumped in to save the kits, that would've been another cat for the riverclan patrol to save. She can't swim, so blindly jumping in is extremely risky and stupid, and could put more cats in danger. This was mentioned in the video, but it most likely would've been the same outcome as flowerpaw and birchface. She also probably would be hesitant about the river due to her clanmates deaths from the same thing.
The only reason I can think of, Mapleshade had probably crossed that part of the river with Appledusk multiple times. She probably didn't think it was so dangerous despite the warnings.
But even as I write this, it would still be her fault. She thinks she's right all the time, and her arrogance causes her kit's downfall.
she probably didn't think it was dangerous for the kits as well too. maybe she thought they were 'her perfect little kits' so they would survive no matter what-->her thinking she's in the right for everything.
this is a good take
There has also been talk about Lilywhisker from Tallstar’s Revenge going to the dark forest for being upset about her injured leg. This personally disgusts me, people shouldn’t be sent to hell for being upset!😡
Love your videos btw
I think the whole Lilywhisker in the df thing was retconned, but yeah I agree with you
Hello, I just want to say that the Brightflower/Lilywhisker incident was a retcon. They are now confirmed to be in cat heaven. (Same thing with Hawkheart)
@@Nezukoscat good
I think it’s kind of silly that people think that Frecklewish would have even be capable of saving the kits. She was probably suffering from some form of trauma after her brother died in that same river. Mapleshade also nearly died in there, so I don’t see why Freckle wouldn’t struggle too.
She is also a not a riverclan cat and would probably have drowned too if she tried to save them like-
also, you’re not supposed to jump in and save drowning people, especially in that environment. It is extremely dangerous and is NOT what you’re supposed to do if you aren’t trained to help in those situations 😭
@@deerprynce that’s a good point, people shouldn’t be holding these anthropomorphized cats to different standards to humans. I doubt that the people that are saying that Frecklewish is evil would risk their own life to save people that obviously cannot swim and that would probably drag them under the water.
@@XxEmpty_EscapexX693 that’s true, I didn’t think of that. My point still stands though that her brother died in that river so there’s no reason to think that she would have survived, let alone be able to save the kits.
All of this is irrelevant anyways because Russetfur and her patrol watched a kit struggle in a fox trap and still (presumably) all went to StarClan. We know Russetfur did. So the code 12 point doesn't make sense anyways.
(Don't get me wrong, I love Russetfur, but if Frecklewish deserves the DF for kit neglect then she does too. Results don't really matter more than intention here because Russetfur and her patrol were in a safe position to help Berrykit and still chose to sit back and watch as he was struggling for his life, in comparison to Frecklewish who wasn't in a good position to help Maple's kits even if she wanted to.)
(Also sorry if this was brought up in the video I might've missed that part)
One thing that really bothers me is the sudden shift I’m seeing in the fandom with the news of Frecklewish supposedly being in the Dark Forest. It feels like just a few months ago people were still against Freckle and still considering Mapleshade to be in the right.That’s not to say there were no people defending Frecklewish, there were a few don’t get me wrong. Wether it be that most Warriors fans are teenagers or young adults, I feel this sudden shift is strange and really telling of fandom culture..
Has anyone else noticed this??
In my opinion, it’s because the fandom has actually grown up past the “Frecklewish is evil because reasons”, and the only people who think that are either:
1. Ignorant and only looked at alternate sources (ie, the wiki [poor Freckle is done dirty in the Wiki with her new hissing lineart])
2. Very, very young. Like, going on the Amino because you’re too young for Discord young.
@@thelanktheist2626 This is probably what it is. Even still, I see posts saying “Mapleshade girlboss”which makes absolutely no sense.
There was a general slow shift in discourse where people started giving Frecklewish a pass and blaming everyone else instead. The Freckle in the Dark Forest news just sparked a new wave of discourse, except by now the Frecklewish haters have calmed down (and maybe actually read the novella lol) so there's just the defenders.
@@thelanktheist2626 i dont really think its growing up. in fact its just another example of the type of mob mentality to fanbase has. this time it happens to be something positive rather than negative.
I think it's because as Moonkitti mentioned a lot of people actually didn't read the books and just parroted what others in the fandom said, and it took some well known figures in the fandom to speak up against it for them to realize that they were wrong. Happened a few times before, like the Squirrel and Crow hate trends for example. It's not exclusive to Warriors either, fandoms like to do that stuff in general 🤷 (and people as a whole for that matter)
Erins: Frecklewish is in the Dark Forest now
**Everyone disliked that.**
23:16
Even suggesting that Frecklewish went to hell for being blind is actually insane because that implies that Jayfeather will go to the Dark Forest after saving all 4 OG Clans + the Tribe just because he was born disabled
Merry Christmas! Frecklewish may not be perfect and she may have done some dumb decisions, but she doesn't deserve to be in the Dark Forest. She was grieving her brother and Mapleshade lied to her and the clan that her kits were Birchface's. She was upset, Mapleshade lied to her, she lost her brother, she thought the kits would make it over safe due to RiverClan cats being on the other side. Frecklewish should be in StarClan.
She’s a warrior not a kit. She broke the warrior code she agreed for the Kits to leave she acted like the kits were the problem
She kinda was the one that demanded the kits should be banished- but she didn’t deserve the dark forest- maybe limbo for a short while and then be let into startclan. But definitely not the dark forest.
@@snowherd2457 have you watched the moonkiti video at all? It literally explains how wrong your argument is. Take these few moments to read the video, watching it will explain to you so much the arguments that Freckle is innocent (supported by book quotes as arguments, not what your words are, for which there are no book quotes and evidence)
@@Idkidc2173 This is my opinion if you don’t agree don’t comment on it🤣 MoonKitti’s Vidoe cannot change what she did she still broke the code and agree for kits to leave calling them creators she demanded the kits be punished even when they did nothing they didn’t chose their birth or who they were born to. but the again FreckleWish is way WAYYY less harmless than OakStar and RavenWing as those to. played a large part as both had the voice to stop it. RavenWing in my opinion could have stopped the kits from leaving.
@@snowherd2457 shut up
I've always hated when people compare Mapleshade actions to frecklewish, MapleShade is a cold hearted killer, Shes awfully good character, I just can't see how people compare both of them when one definitely a villain. Its gets on my nerves. While I'm not saying that Frecklewish Is innocent shes atleast better in morals(probably not in character Maplsahade is godly written)
Exactly! Frecklewish is definitely the most innocent out of the three cats Mapleshade killed
FreckleWish Was not In a good state of mind or in full clarity at the time
Every cat played a selfish part if you think about it. No cat thought about what would happen to the kits which is a good reason why they ended up dying no one said about the kits staying thunder clan kinda blamed the kits or in this state OakStar did,
@@starvoltnexus3139 To be fair, neither was Mapleshade when she brought her kits hip. But both situations are different because Mapleshade was making horrible desicions even BEFORE her kits drowned. She lacked empathy from the start, whereas Frecklewish got angry over something out of her control (but still acted badly).
She wants the kits to be taken away not caring what happens to kits. No matter what your going threw that’s heartless
I never understanded why frecklewish went to the dark forest. Like, bruh, she didn’t actually MURDER anyone unlike maple shade. She couldn’t even help bc she couldn’t even swim!
True but shes not innocent she watched kits drown she still needs to be punished
@sweet wolf Steve victoria I don’t think there was any way that she could. I mean, the kids were already in the river. She couldn’t have caught them from the land so jumping in would be just as useless as flailing her hands around, you know what I mean?
@@sweetwolfsteve5583 How? Putting herself in danger to help the kits would just cause another issue of a cat either drowning or being seriously injured
Besides, people forget that her brother DROWNED in that same river! And she was probably grief stricken at that time knowing that Mapleshade manipulated and lied to her that day, do you think she'd risk her life to face her worst fear, to save the cat that cheated and lied to her? Not to mention, she can't swim and probably has no chance of saving her anyway, and she probably ALSO thought the kits would be safe because there was a RiverClan patrol of cats there right at the moment, so she isn't a monster-
@@lanathejackman3336 if she jumped in though she could of drowned the kits and MapleShade, plus she could of saw the patrol.
YEAH I HATE when people yell at you for liking an evil character?? like she was written well. She is my favorite. It doesn't mean I like death and murder, her character just interests me.
If frecklewish was thrown into the dark forest for ‘not saving the kits,’ then clearsky should be thrown into the dark forest, rainflower should be thrown into the dark forest, and even that one cat (idk their name, something like fox or red) who just watched berry nose loose his tail to the fox trap without going to get help
Russetfur and he really did just sit there and watch.
@@Topdoggie7she
@@hadleyreynolds8870 Russet is a girl?
@@Topdoggie7 yeah, don’t know how you forgot
@@hadleyreynolds8870 Because Russet was a he in a book.
The think with Vicky saying about the grief hallucinations could actually be a very strong headcanom, or maybe canon. I know that when my cat died, all of my family (except me, I was tiny, I thought he’d gone to bed) heard him meowing all of the time, and were constantly thinking he was at their ankles. In worse stages of grief, you might actually see the passed, but usually it’s just voices and noises.
TL;DR When in grief you can hallucinate about the past, making Vicky’s claim a great headcanon
Also if you’re wondering about why the heck my family was so sad about a passing pet is because my mother had had this family of cats since she was a child, she had had the mother and father, the auntie, and the cat, who was the last in the line.
Mapleshade: *takes her kits across the river, leading to their deaths*
Also Mapleshade: How could Frecklewish do this??
Frecklewish deserved better, she may not be an innocent baby but she did not cause those kit's deaths. I am gonna make my own website and put Oakstar in the dark forest myself because of how angry I am.
Congratulations, you've made Frecklewish trend on the Warrior Cat Wiki.
I would LOVE to see another novella with the perspective of another character that experienced Mapleshade alive.
Ashfur: *goes to starclan*
Freckle wish, Bright flower and Lilly whisker: 😑
Warrior cats hates women
Biggest reason why I take everyone else’s word for all things Mapleshade’s Vengeance is because I rage quit after halfway through chapter 2. I really couldn’t stand anyone in that book except the kits.
If ash "i tried to burn my ex and her children alive" fur is in starclan freckwish should be too. She didnt intentionally try to murder children.
No matter what you may think of Mapleshade, we can all agree that her kits did not deserve to die.
If Frecklewish got sent to the Dark Forest Mapleshsde would have killed her a second time the moment she came across her no doubt. Like if she got sent there she no longer exists.
To be fair frecklewish is heavily implied to be able to kick mapleshade's butt
@@Moonkitti I hope Frecklewish kicked Mapleshade's ass in the DF. Can someone write about that? Potential video idea? Who knows
Mapleshade is one of if not my favorite characters, I love her for the manipulative person she is
as someone who also likes mapleshade, I think she is a sympathetic character that should serve as a well written villain and having her suddenly be an uwu nice girl misunderstood cat would cheapen her writing
I love mapleshade, she was THE cat that introduced me to warrior by seeing an edgy video of her in 2016 i absolutely adore her malicious way of thinking, cause i think her alive time was tragic and all, but in the dark forest she doesn't actually feel the need to redeem herself *because why should her? She never did anything wrong*, she's just an evil murder mama and i like it as that
I actually don’t like mapleshade at all. It’s ok for you guys to have your own favorite characters, or which character you like the most. But mapleshade? She killed innocent cats just because she *thought* they were responsible for everything bad that happened to her. And worse, she didn’t even think what she had done was bad. She killed a pregnant queen and still thought it was okay. Loving her is like loving what she did. I can agree that her novella is very good, her character is very well written. But in my opinion it’s messed up to love a murderer.
@@tobishumu9834 but she's not real? she is a fictional character that created problems in a story because it's interesting. You can still love her character since no one actually died, and all the things she did were because she was written that way to make the story more interesting. If it were a real serial killer that would be different but this is a fictional cat from a series which deals with murder and cat hell
@@slashercat8649 it doesn’t matter if she’s real or not. Her actions were terrible and I’m not talking about the people above my comment, no. I’ve seen people on the warrior cats community who stan her and defend her actions, saying she did nothing wrong. This is what I meant, sorry if it’s confusing.
24:33 oh my stars, THIS. JUST THIS. I remember, as an almost pre-teen, brutally crying reading this book purely out of the cruelty of Crookedkit's own mother because of how horrifically and emotionally real it felt. How come this doesn't get talked about that much? (Or I just haven't looked for discussions about it enough)
Nightstar would be a good choice. Less controversial compared to other cats, but a bit more depressing of a character.
Oh, yes! Nightstar is one of my favorites he needs some love
When people talk about Frecklewish "watching the kits drown", you know what that remind me of? Russetfur and Graywing. These cats are supposedly in StarClan... Russetfur let Berrynose suffer and scream and did nothing to help him, and Graywing *actually watched three kits die and did nothing because they were not her clanmates*, and she WAS punished with the vision of what would those cats become should they have not been killed. Idk, its just weird. We dont even KNOW for sure if Frecklewish did see them drown.
Is this a different Ravenwing or are you talking about MV Ravenwing? /gen. sorry if this seems like a stupid question 😭
@@lycanfangs Actually, you caught a little mistake here! I meant to say Graywing, not Ravenwing, but I had MV in the brain OTL. Graywing is the cat in Code of the Clans who creates the rule about saving kits regardless of Clan, bc she's a RC Cat who watches 3 lil kittens drown and is later visited by them in a dream/vision, and realizes these kittens would have grown to have important positions in their Clan, even leadership. My bad! Thank you for letting me know
@@akiriith ohh, i see. thank you for clarifying!!
the graywing thing is a moot point because that event was the one that triggered the creation of the rule, and you can't really retroactively punish someone for not following a rule that didnt exist.
Another point is Nettlepaw never mentioned Frecklewish seeing the kits in the river to begin with, just that she saw Mapleshade. For all we know she could’ve assumed they were hiding in the grass
think another addition to why she was ready to fight maple was because maple called her a liar, lumping freckle with herself and Freckle hated that
true, getting called a liar from a liar isn't very nice. plus it just escalated the situation
Erins: she watched mapleshades kits drown she deserves to go to the df!
me: ...wait jayfeather watched flametail drown he actively participated in that incident unlike Frecklewish and actively knew flametail was going to drown unlike with the kits therefore he belongs in the df by your logic
Erins: wait no
(idk just a weird thought I can't get rid of and was bothering me)
Jayfeather has protagonist immunity. All protagonists go to StarClan unless they are specifically designed to be evil, like Mapleshade. I have no in-universe explanation, sorry.
I'm not agreeing with the Erins side on this but in all fairness to Jayfeather had no bearing on Flametail drowning, unfortunately that was always gonna happen given his visions. He tried to save him, but for all we know Jayfeather probably would've frozen and drowned with him. If there's anyone to blame in that, it's Rock.
@@fairycat23 or Bristlefrost
Don’t forget Russetfur(?) who WATCHED berrynose lose half of his tail to a trap and didn’t do anything to help
Mapleshade: *takes three young children into a large river on a stormy night, after being warned not to do so by at least three people*
also Mapleshade: Frecklewish did this
I never read Mapleshade's book, but I knew she killed several people...However, I didn't know she pretended that a dead guy is the kits's father! That's awful too!
Wow, didnt know Freckle would ever be listed in the DF. Frecklewish is in my top 20 least favorite warrior cats with almost else in that book other than Mapleshade+kits and Reedshine, but even I wouldn't send her there. I'm super with you of if Appledusk and Oakstar didn't get sent to the dark forest, there is no reason Frecklewish would go to.
I do super feel like starclan just kind of screwed mapleshade over unless it was Birch(whatever the brothers name is) sending the message specifically. I can't remember the specifics of what they told Ravenwing but I just remember it feeling entirely unnecessary
The creator of the video Moon promoted actually made an AU in which Birchface sent the sign!! They posted some art of it on Twitter fairly recently :]
There is a headcanon / AU about how the sign is a warning not to let the kits cross the river. The sign was specifically a Maple leaf and reed pieces floating down a creek I believe
@@Starrykitkat1 lmao if that's what it meant then Ravenwing really botched that interpretation
@@Starrykitkat1 if that were the case, it was the only prophecy that cause the events it was warning about to happen
My favorite gift for Christmas. Cat mortality.
I know this is a decently serious topic, but I seriously can't get over the doodles of the cats in this video, they're just so cute and funny.
I really appreciate using direct quotes from the text in the video. The discussion surrounding Mapleshade's Vengeance has been a horrible game of broken telephone for years now, which surprises me because the text itself is actually very short. Mapleshade's Vengeance is less than 70 pages. You could read it in an hour or two, and I encourage people to do so! I think nowadays there are free PDFs online.
I can't tell you how many people I've talked to about this book over the years, only for them to admit halfway through the conversation that they haven't read the source material. Please inform yourself before arguing about a subject. (Of course, you can still enjoy Mapleshade based on fan projects! This fandom makes great art. But a lot of the time, people who are not brushed up on canon try to make claims in arguments and it perpetuates misinformation.)
If you’ve ever seen the documentary tread then you’ll know what I’m talking about.
Mapleshade reminds me of the guy who destroyed his entire town with a bulldozer. He said it was a sign from god and was convinced what he was doing was right. He also refused to take the blame for anything he did and instead blamed everyone else. Literally nobody else will get this comparison but me, but I don’t care I’m making it anyways.
Mapleshade driving a bulldozer seems even cannonically posible at this point XD
I actually do know that story and agree with the comparison!
Watch this, people who put frecklewish in the dark forest, and explain
I have yet to read mapleshades vengeance but the quote of her saying "everything is different now" seems really foreboding. Like its the same thing you hear in a dramatic retelling of a murder suicide.
Maybe mapleshade knew that both her and her kits wouldn't fit in any other clan or place so maybe her next best choice (as depressing as it is) was suicide but she ends up surviving with possibly brain damage causing her to go physco.
((My smart self had fun seeing a similarity to murder documentarys that I watch lol))
Can you talk about Ravenpaw and Barly next? There is a lot of gray areas in their relationship. And it would be an interesting video
I’m standing by the argument of “Mapleshade is evil, not mean. Frecklewish is mean, not evil.”
As much as I stan Mapleshade, Frecklewish is the least guilty of the cats to me and definitely didn't deserve the DF!
Frankly, the only one of the 3 to deserve it (if any) is Oakstar. Like, THIS is a code 12 problem!
oh god, when i see the word stan i think apologist and get annoyed but u seem like ur not a huge apologist, and yes i agree. oakstar to hell. merry christmas
@@zrainyday5266 lol merry Christmas. And nah. She totally deserves what happened. I really just like diving into the mind of a crazy character and seeing her warp the situation to the point she thinks her kids are calling for the death of their supposed killers. It's fascinating!
But I totally get it. I've been attacked by fans of certain characters (specifically Jayfeather) for not liking them. Like, you're allowed to like a cat, but don't act like others are monsters that don't. This fandom gets really crazy over their favorites, so I get it.
Imagine how chaotic the dark forest would be if Mapleshade and Frecklewish got trapped there together
I consider Mapleshade an interesting character, but--
Mapleshade: *chucks kits into river and then keeps swimming*
Also Mapleshade: ITS ALL FRECKLEWISH’S FAULT *dramatic sob*
I agree to be honest that that there should be someone to blame other than Mapleshade but literally HOW is it Frecklewish when Oakstar is right there? Who tf lets children be exiled? Even if Mapleshade, being the insane weirdo she is, wanted to take them, they should have stopped her?
These are my exact thoughts
I love it every time a moonkitti video drops! And I like this one especially. It presents the events in mv from a pretty clear and objective point of view- Mapleshade's vision *is* distorted, and no-one can say that Frecklewish deserved to go to hell just because she didn't drown herself in a raging river (especially when in the book she says she thought the kits were going to be saved by the rc patrol.) /lh
also to add to the “you only said this thing because this person said it!!!”
yeah. i listened to what they said and they made some really good points, so i agree with them. there’s nothing wrong with that.
Can you please talk about Monkeystar,and WarriorClan in general? The few things we know about them are interesting, and funny.I also would like to hear about how Graystripe may have influenced them. (Also Monkeystar is a cute name :3)
i haven't read the books in *years* i just find you so entertaining and coming back to your videos is nostalgic in a way
YESS I was waiting for this exact topic, love you moonkitti you really came through. I'm really sorry you have a tough time when you make these videos, but we really do love them and they mean a lot.
Rewatching for the chill Christmas music. Even though it's Lent. ^^;
How long until moonkitti starts making her own warrior cat audio books tho? That voice acting is top tier.
Merry Christmas Moon!!!!! Thx for uploading on Christmas hope you have a Merry day!!
THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR THIS OMG….. you brought up so many things i wish i did!! the objective analysis is very much needed and i appreciate it a lot i HOPE people will actually listen to it now
also TY FOR PLUGGING MY VIDEO TWICE?????? WTF
My friend has been screaming about frecklewish and writing aus about her all week lol so you released this right on time.
When the wiki is more trustful then the actual warriors site
There was this person who was obviously a Bramblestar supporter and had gotten in many arguments about whether Bramblestar was bad or not said one time “so I see many of you dislike Branmblestar because of a moonkitti video making him look bad”.
“Making him look bad” as in the video was telling lies or something
With regards to Ravenwing, I think what he meant by 'these kits will suffer for the lies you've told' is that they're innocent and will end up facing the biggest brunt of the fallout of the reveal that they're half-clan. I don't think that is necessarily *him* saying that they *should* suffer, I think that's Raven expressing sympathy for the kittens because they're the ones who did nothing wrong.
I think he should have worded it correctly. He should have said "These kits will suffer because of you" or something, which sounds the same as the original quote, but still sounds better
But also, I get that Raven was trying to stay respectful to StarClan by telling the truth, but the safety of kits are more important than a dead ancestor, and Raven knew the kits will get in trouble if he told the clan, but he still told the clan
@@Pommmyyy Ah fair enough. Either way, innocent children suffered!
@@dinolil1474 yeah, they didn't deserve it
(Keep in mind, its been a few years since I read MV)
Adding onto Frecklewish not being a good character morally or in this case, socially is that initially Maple is clearly uncomfortable with Freckle barging her way into Maple and her kits lives. This just be her grief blinding her but I related to Maple's uneasiness with Freckle's acts (before she saw a way to use them to her advantage)
And Personal hc that after Freckle died she stayed on that limbo area for a long time reflecting on everything that happened. She partially blamed herself for the kits dying as she played a role in getting them kicked out the clans. She loved those kits as her kin, and now she has played a part in then dying. Even worse, maybe she could have done something more, or anything at all to save them from the river. When she faces the council from starclan, she chooses to go to the DF. Keep in mind, this is all Freckle's mind, nothing she could have done would have really changed anything
@@thatsn0tverycashm0ney88 i like this hc. it makes more sense then starclan sending her there, even if she doesnt deserve the df