It's also interesting that Juniperclaw, who poisoned SkyClan because he thought it was the only way to help his Clan survive, went to the Dark Forest. Meanwhile Needletail, who actively worked to destroy her Clan and only turned her life around once her boyfriend was killed, was allowed into StarClan despite the fact both sacrificed themselves for their Clans (though in Needletail's case she died fixing a mess she created herself)
@@riverstaffordshire4312 There's a lot wrong with Needletail that's just ignored, like how she pretty much spent her entire life emotionally abusing/manipulating Violetkit/paw. It's never addressed and she's seen as a good character
@@TQuinn-yy9wy oh I agree, I really hate how everyone acts like she was ✨misunderstood✨ when she dug her own grave and ruined Violetshine's life, but manipulated her into thinking Needletail was the best friend she's ever have
The idea that Lionblaze inherited his bloodlust from Firestar, who on reflection did enjoy fighting a good deal more than most protagonists... is mind blowing. This is canon now as far as I'm concerned.
I have been thinking quite a bit about this. At the very least, Firestar is one of, if not the best, fighter the series has ever seen. He bested Tigerclawstar multiple times, a warrior that most had hailed as a fantastic and brutal fighter, and then killed Scourge, the cat who killed Tigerstar in two blows! Years later, as almost an elder, he killed Tigerstar’s ghost, someone who’s been training for that very fight for YEARs. Lionblaze, by contrast, was scarred multiple times while having powers that were supposed to protect him from all harm. Honestly, the guy is kind of a wimp
plus when Jayfeather found him in his dream when he was saving starclan after finding out he was the 4th cat DUDE WAS LEGIT HAVING A DREAM ABOUT FIGHTING OVER SUNNINGROCKS
Ok, but. I LOVE that the authors left Squilf out of the final battle. When it comes to abuse victims, a lot of representation goes, “oh, let’s have a big scene where they kick their ass when they demand attention! But oh no! It’s what they wanted!” I’m so happy they didn’t do that with her. She deserves the respect and attention to the arc she somehow didn’t get before? Anyways, having Graystripe tell her she doesn’t need to confront him, how it would even be healthier for her to leave him in the past, is amazing. It’s against all other representation of abuse victims, and it’s actually great advice IRL and sets a great healing goal for victims in these situations.
Yeah. Now that you mention it, it is a great lesson for readers of all ages, especially those in abusive relationships, or those who WERE in abusive relationships, as you said. Squirrelflight will be ok. She just has to know that the past is the past and she can heal from it.
This! Squirrelflight confronting Ashfur would be giving him everything he wants. The way it went down is good to show the audience and a great victory for a cat who at this point just deserves some peace and happiness.
Erins: *gives Snowtuft a sympathetic background and teases the interesting possibility of a Dark Forest cat getting his own place in StarClan* Also Erins: Silly Snowtuft, StarClan is for most of the good cats!
I call Snowtuft the "Hell Marshmallow". I sometimes draw him with Snowkit because why not, plus that hole Ashfur dug was left unguarded for a while so it's quite possible to write a situation where a cat just falls in it with no easy way out.
I'm hoping they resolve this. The living cats were uncomfortable with the dark forest cats not being allowed in, it would be stupid not to do something with that. Basically what im saying is asc cast overthrow starclan xx
@@fanpet3912 YES. I have a few OC stories I've made with StarClan-distrusting cats as the protags, and honestly it would be nice to see a canon protagonist realize how messed up StarClan is.
One thing I absolutely LOVE about this book is the way shadowsight reacts when ashfur is truly gone. It’s so heartbreaking in the way he feels and talks about it and I find that it’s so weirdly similar (as a warrior cats book) to a real life abusive situation. The emptiness he feels and the way he misses ash after ashfur manipulated and used him hurts SO MUCH and it’s so painfully real. idk if I just love shadowsight or what but man,, 😭
It bothers me some people in the fandom seem to see this is a bad ending for Shadowsight. It’s not, it’s realistic, and Shadowsight is even optimistic at the end. Leafpool tells him he’ll need time to heal. He isn’t “as broken” as before, he’s just freshly wounded and needs time to heal. It’s realistic, if you’ve ever been hurt like that you’d know.
@@anoushkashenoy692 RIGHT!! it’s just realistic ?? I think people just wanted him to suddenly have this jump to being really happy after ash was gone because that’s often the quota with these books and even the expectation of some people in real life but it’s just not how people (or cats) work. He really does need to heal and I also wish people would understand that
@@remanoir5762 Also feeds into that mentality that people who are abused/manipulated are “forever broken” imo. I don’t like that mentality. They just need help and time to heal. It’s human to be hurt. I like that it’s gradual for him because it shows that you don’t need to immediately be happy/recover once the bad thing in your life gone. It’s OK to have been sad. It’s a part of healing.
@@remanoir5762 Not to mention that quota of expecting people to just suddenly be happy after abusers leave their lives in some way is feeding into that very toxic "perfect victim" stereotype which I'm SO tired of.
*Adults dont get the childlike joy of seeing Firestar again* Meanwhile, me, at 25, losing my shit and tearing up bc he's back to kick his daughter's abusers ass
Yeah I thought he would change to starclan and well maybe get revisited honestly a story arch about dark forest cats being able to be “helped” by starclan having giving us some baddies in starclan to mess the clans up
I cannot agree more. This is one character that had CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT woah. His off screen death was honesty a terrible ending and I can confidently say the Erin’s screwed up.
I think Bristlefrost’s death was a good move purely because the main series often doesn’t kill off POV characters while they’re still being a POV character. Grey Wing is the only other one I can think of. Excluding all the novellas, super editions, etc. It’s unexpected and it was really emotional. The Erins are usually scared to kill off popular/main characters and they often let them get ridiculously old.
Am sad about Snowtuft though. He could have been a start to StarClan allowing Dark Forest cats to redeem themselves to join StarClan’s rank. He got some cool development so it’s sad they cut it short.
honestly the only time they let pov characters die is if its a novella or super edition FOCUSED on the cats entire life, and even then they dont usually write the death itself they just kinda skip to the manga where theyre dead
@@iwakeupandboomimarat Exactly!!! Grey Wing and Bristlefrost are the only POV characters to die while they’re a POV character in the main series/arcs. And with how many series there are there should be more. The Erins are so hesitant now, everyone grows to be so so old because they don’t wanna get rid of ‘em. I mean, look at Mistystar. I think she’s nearly 17 years old??? What happened to the Clan cats usually not making it that long haha. It just ends up making the Clans overpopulated and makes the danger seem a lot less if everyone’s making it to super old.
Shadowsight, as you said, was hurt more in this arc than ANY other character. To have him be killed off would be a M I S E R A B L E experience! Don't kill the fluffy Shadow baby! He's a good medicine cat! He's trying, and he's finally been accepted! And, yes, Firestar was a funny cat in this book. His relationship with Graystripe has been rekindled! And now that Graystripe is in Starclan with him, they're all together now.
also the implications of killing shadowsight are TERRIBLE. he's been a victim this whole series, tried to KILL HIMSELF TO SAVE OTHERS LIKE TWICE, he believes that he's better off dead. killing him in this arc has horrible fucking implications
I was honestly kinda annoyed that Firestar was thrown in to this book, like, he has been the hero so many times now, I would have loved to see another Prophecies Begin cat deal with Darkstripe. But Graystripe and Firestar's reunion was pretty freaking adorable qwq
*can we please discuss Leafpool’s moment of “I had to convince starclan to let me in.” Like why. Why is Yellowfang automatically in starclan but leafpool had to convince them?*
Because Yellowfang is actually the reincarnation of an ancient godess of cats, so she obviously gets a free pass into starclan and is given the position of leader of it. At least, that's the most convincing explanation I can think of for why some much weird shit happened with her since arc 3.
Juniperclaw even redeemed himself partially in life when he saved Shadowsight, that makes no sense that he wouldn’t be slowed in StarClan when both Ashfur and Mudclaw and Clear Sky are in StarClan having done things just as bad
@@siobhannoble8545 Yeah, what is Onestar doing in star clan? If there was ever someone who deserved the dark forest, it's him. Tallstar's worst decision was putting this people pleaser in charge.
When everyone was dogpiling on Juniperclaw and saying ‘you could have put elders and kits at risk!’ I was just thinking of Onestar next to them like ‘… imagine that.’
@@xRaiofSunshine Well this is precisely why they don't let everyone in. Clear Sky has a lot of control over StarClan. So until Clear Sky dies for good, there's no way StarClan could realistically improve.
The open starclan psuedo-christianizing is super, super uncomfortable to me at this point. Just full on ghost kitty facism, and especially when they establish that star clan cats CAN let dark forest cats see/enter star clan or move between the two, this is a choice, an existentially terrifying choice.
@@enderwalkgang Furzepelt for one. Like I'm sorry not only did she train in the Dark Forest but she remained a total bitch her whole life and even mocked ThunderClan for missing Firestar even though she shares the blame for his final death. If Lilywhisker goes to the DF just for being bitter over losing her leg then Furzepelt should also go down for just being bitter in general.
Juniperclaw did NOT deserve what he got, he wasn't really bad he admitted he was just trying to help but made a mistake. I like him as a character now, I honestly did not expect he would be in the Dark Forest.
I hope next arc lets Mothwing tear starclan a new one before she inevitably dies. I'm just gonna be so damn ticked if they send her to starclan and she suddenly becomes all "starclan is great actually" or gets a "redemption arc" where she learns to be a good little starclan worshipper
I honestly hope ( this will sound bad) that Mothwing does not go to Starclan. She doesn’t believe in Starclan. I want to see her in like a place that’s in between Starclan and the dark forest. Or just gone, none of starclan or dark forest.
Honestly, imagine an arc about Mothwing going to Starclan and starting to praise it and protagonists focusing on how messed up it is and how they brainwash the cats going there? Like imagine if the arc focused on a cat with special connection to the afterlife (like Jayfeather) realising Starclan is just hell lite and there is a different, actual heaven, that exists. Perhaps it would be the place that sent the powers and prophecies (since Starclan doesn't do all of them) while Starclan is more of a purgatory... and when the cat dies for the second time they get sent to the kitty heaven where there is no drama or anything like that and they act more like a ghostly mass/god. And the purely good cats who are in Starclan actually just decided to go to purgatory because they prefer to keep their faulty personality and engage with living cats? Like a trade for being forever fulfulled and happy in heaven is becoming a part of that mass, completely disconnected from physical reality and failure Sorry, I know it won't ever happen but maybe I will write a headcanon like this
I SEVERELY dislike Starclan as a whole. But this book makes me wonder if it's possible for cats to form their own sect of Starclan, away from the prophecies and trials and such. Like a little kitty Heaven Haven.
@@sandywolfr26 However that could be a different thing entirely. Given we have no idea how life after death works, cat books or not, we don't know if maybe the Tribe of Endless Hunting is a completely different afterlife than Starclan or the same thing in different areas. Afterlife doesn't have to confine to Earthly logic and I don't think it realistically _would._ I think given it's a matter of soul/spirit and belief, and that those two things are tied so closely in Warriors, that Starclan and the Tribe of Endless Hunting are completely different "planes" if you will. Where their heart and mind is truely most loyal in is where their spirit will be guided, hence why cats with good intent can still be sent to the Dark Forest.
Hahah! I’ve had my oc clan doing that for a while- *stares at my group of all abandoned main ocs who I was too attached to to let them be annoying but didn’t want them alive*
i think this book having bristlefrost as the main cover cat wouldve been SOOO BETTER. her and bramble couldve literally traded spots cause having bramble in the veil of shadows cover makes a decent amount of sense aswell
@@starcycle4308 Yes, that’s Bristle. Although the book’s describe her as pale-gray and she appears more dark gray on the cover. But I’m pretty sure they just told the artist “gray and blue eyes, get to work”
I like how they handled the whole "Squirrelflight and Ashfur not having a big end scene" thing. They could've made Squirrelflight have this whole "confrontation" with Ashfur but Graystripe was right and that would've give Ashfur what he wanted: to see that he played such a big role in her unhappiness and made her suffer after all. But instead Squirrelflight moved on and realised that she didn't need to prove anything to Ashfur. Edit: Holy Hollyleaf! How did I get so many likes? I'm just a 13 year old who uses good grammar and worships Ashfur's hair.
a cat who committed serious wrongs in his life can die and be welcomed into starclan despite having no true regret. and he will be treated just as well as the other starclan cats, even the one that killed him seems to be willing to move past it. he can then dwell on the events and choices of when he was alive and make the decision to reject starclan and cause harm. and when he is defeated starclan themselves will say that yes he was evil and yes he deserved to have been sent to the dark forest. a different cat will do something wrong and evil in his life and try to make up for it one last time before dying, only to be sent to the dark forest. he can spend all his time there reflecting on his life and past decisions and decide that he wants to do good and strive for redemption. only for starclan to tell him that he will never be allowed into their hunting grounds because he had already made those evil decisions and whether he regrets it or not he must deal with the consequences (for literally eternity). i hate it here
How about Vicky's Facebook post updating the Dark Forest population? Lilywhisker is in the Dark Forest for being angry over her injured leg forcing her to retire, Brightflower is in the Dark Forest for feeling grief and betrayal over everything that happened to her and her kin, Tangleburr and others are in the Dark Forest for no fucking specified reason. At this point it feels like just breathing on a leader can get you sent to the Dark Forest while cats who actively commit codebreaks are allowed into StarClan. Makes me utterly despise certain cats in hindsight.
@@graphitetailgrace3870 im sorry but the lilywhisker thing has always made no sense. she literally did NOTHING wrong or against the warrior code, she was just internally angry that a freak accident left her disabled. the erins do not know how to write disabled characters and im not sure why they keep doing it
Starclan is rly rly stupid! Not all the cats fhat are in, but like... wht?! A bunch of a dead cats with LigHt decides the destiny of the other cats, starclan was/is bad a lot of times and let cats be abused without say a heck! But if they want something with no sense they have it? Even if a cats dies! Or more! Is like a spoiled brat, maybe someday the cats who are good/want to change goes to starclan :/
Akira: "I dislike Bristlefrosts death." Moon: "I love Bristlefrosts death!" Akira: "I dislike the epilogue." Moon: "I love the epilogue!" Akira: "I dislike how Squirrelflight doesn't face Ashfur." Moon: "I love how Squirrelflight doesn't face Ashfur!" Akira: "I dislike Firestar's and Greystripe's returns as big plot points." Moon: "I love Firestar's and Greystripe's returns as big plot points!"
My favorite thing about the scene where StarClan refuses to let the Dark Forest cats in is Gray Wing and Skystar are the ones who enforced the "you can't mess up ever" rule. Like. Skystar? Clear Sky? CLEAR SKY, MURDERER AND WAR-STARTER EXTRAORDINAIRE says if you break the rules once you immediately go to hell?
One of my biggest annoyances was Grey Wing's cameo. It was cute that him and Skystar (alias Clear Sky) had such a friendly rapport in the afterlife, I liked that. But Grey Wing, of all cats, should not be this exclutionary. Sure, he could be strict sometimes in Dawn of the Clans, but he's speaking so highly about the Warrior Code and "being a warrior" in this, despite dying long before those terms were even invented. Grey Wing was inclusive to outsiders and hated rigidity. I thought it was very out of character for him. Please, Erins, don't ruin my favourite character! Also, Snowtuft deserved better.
honestly i feel like when ANY cat goes to starclan they get a StarClan Personality where they preach the goodness of the warrior code and clan separation and traditions in general, even if they were born before the code, technically went against the code or who were even critical of starclan (kind of played as a joke but when firestar asks why starclan has to be so cryptic with their prophecies and they continue to be cryptic and never explain why)
Moonkitti covered literally everything I was thinking about this book. At this point, she’s just a good voice for the general community’s views on the books. (Obviously with some nuance and disagreements, but overall general idea and complaints)
I hope Bramblestar sends a patrol to Barley and Stormfur to let them know of Graystripe’s passing, that would be nice, hopefully they mention something like that in River.
Honestly, something that I would really like to see in the future is some Spotfur and Rootspring interactions. And maybe even raise Spotfur’s kits together. Not as mates, but as friends. Bristlefrost loved and adored the kits, even though she’ll never get the chance to meet them. She swore to stay by Spotfur’s side and help raise the kits. Because Bristlefrost is no longer there, along with Stemleaf being dead, Spotfur no longer has anyone to turn to for help, or be there for her and the kits. I feel like Rootspring would take up BristleFrost’s part in caring for the kits, in a way to honor her. I doubt this would happen but I think it would be really sweet and something that Rootspring might think about
I'd love if Rootspring got privileges as Light in the Mist to visit Spotfur and check up on her kits. I agree they shouldn't be mates, but I hope eventually Rootspring will be able to move forward and be with someone else, maybe Turtlecrawl. I was going to say Bristlefrost would love to watch him move on, be loved and have kits- from StarClan, but...
@@antfangz LMAFO, just saw this- I have absolutely no idea why I added the capitals between the suffixes and prefixes. I wanted to vomit when I reread what I wrote
I absolutely love your rant about the morality of Dark Forest cats having no chance at redemption. The show The Good Place is basically centered around that concept as well-- if the afterlife is infinite, then how does it make sense to permanently judge/punish a soul based on the decisions they made in a finite life?
a light in the mist had my favorite ending out of any warriors book so far. i Love how they wrote bristlefrost drowning and then rootspring's guilt, and how shadowsight was actually feeling the effects of being in the dark forest for too long, even if it was short lived.
I think this series represents a deliberate attempt on the part of the editors to identify problems in the Warriors franchise and correct them. The books were getting too prophecy-heavy, so they wrote a plotline where no one can talk to Starclan. The fans were getting tired of forbidden relationships, so they changed the warrior code to make that less of an issue. The last few series lost direction in their second halves, so they wrote a series with a planned ending point (but it still ran thin in the middle). Recent series kept changing villains, so this one has a present and obvious villain all the way through. I hope this trend continues, because some really good books could come out of it. To my mind they still haven't gone nearly far enough.
i hope a starless clan continues this trend tbh, in my eyes warriors NEEDS a good, long lasting upheaval of the status quo with long term impacts, or its just gonna be the same shit with new gray cats
Something I found depressing but also pretty funny was in the Gathering at the very end Dovewing and Lionblaze were some of the cats questioning the decision to make changing clans an option when 1. Dovewing literally did that. For love. And 2. Tf Lionblaze did you forget about ur mom and the whole mess with Heathertail when you were apprentices?? Lionblaze’s hypocrisy in this series in general is very funny to me
Lionblaze is such an inherently stupid character at this point lmao. He’s just a psycho toxic masculinity muscle guy at this point. His character literally makes no sense.
I feel like “A starless clan” will be the start of the clans giving the middle finger to starclan Edit: Also I want an arc that focuses on Warriorclan. I get that it’s very unlikely, but I really want an arc of Warriorclan, or any clan other than the main five. Please. Pretty please. I just want to see life in the same universe that is outside the clans for once
I definitely don't think it's fair that they killed off a lot of the Dark Forest cats who helped out with taking Ashfur down. They should've given them a second chance, especially Snowtuft and Juniperclaw.
I sincerely feel sad about Redwillow. Ivypool is def going to StarClan but Redwillow was completely brainwashed by the DF as a 'paw and no he's gone forever. Sad.
Honestly, I've been reading Warrior cats since I was like 10 years old. I'm 21 now, and Firestar's reappearance still filled me with childlike joy. I love that guy.
Okay but how does no one talk about Ivypool and Bristlefrosts relationship?! Like I know we skipped a lot of Bristles kithood and her apprenticeship was quick, but theres still a motherly bond there. And imagine how Ivypool must feel at the end of ALITM?? Her own kit experienced the hell of a dark forest she fought and failed to put away. The devastation of a mother losing her kit is also shadowed by the grief of feeling like she should have done better to stop the dark forest or to prevent her kit from facing the dangers she faced. I imagine Shadowsight must feel some grief as well, Bristlefrost was his cousin afterall and he would have known this. Rootspring was perhaps the most painful for me as well, how must it feel to know the one you love does not even wait for you in death? That no where he looks will he find her? How awful for all of those who loved Bristle. The writers made us feel this one for sure, I hope that if anything they make a memorial for Bristle like they did the cats who died in the last hope, it would ease some of the grief.
I feel like an easy solution to the juniperclaw thing would be if StarClan offered him to stay with them but he, himself, refused, and instead wanted to atone for his actions before he felt comfortable truly joining them. Then he offers to guard the barrier and maybe StarClan/dark forest barrier guard becomes a full time thing that morally grey but atoning cats chose to take up as a mantle.
The lack of redemption in WCs is seriously awful to me. Cats like Darkstripe and other lackeys are seen AS bad as Tigerstar and Brokenstar, when a huge part of the Code is that you need to be loyal to your leader. It is a protagonist POV based moral judgement who gets to be in Heaven and who does not. This is why many fan rewrites have excised the dark forest entirely.
With Darkstripe, I understand him going to the Dark Forest. He tried to kill a kit!! And idk but he didn't seem remorseful(I may be wrong but I haven't read any of the recent books if they state otherwise) I also think it also deals with his mentality being similar to Tigerstars. Thats all byebye
That’s the point though, this code was changed at the end of the arc because this was a bad code to have. Besides, I kinda disagree. Warriors hands out redemptions blindly to cats like Clear Sky who don’t deserve it, and Darkstripe made the willing decision to follow Tigerstar. He betrayed his leader Bluestar to follow Tigerclaw and ruined his chance at redemption. He doesn’t need to be the worst cat in the world to be a bad one. I agree with cats like Juniperclaw. I LOVE Juniperclaw. I don’t know why he wasn’t redeemed. Makes me mad. I guess what i’m trying to say is they give redemption to the wrong cats.
@@spiltkool-aid I think Hollyleaf's redemption was well done too. I'd say Clear Sky's redemption was good if they hadn't ruined it in Mothflight's Vision by turning him back into the paranoid hypocrite he used to be.
I’ve already seen people say they want bristlefrost to appear again, as a reincarnation or in a higher afterlife. They just want her to be SOMEWHERE. and I disagree with that because it would take away the impact of her permadeath. Bristle’s death is so impactful because she’s just gone forever. Also where the hell was hollyleaf in this book?
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Yeah she like calmed Squirrelflight down when they ran into Ashfur in Starclan and was even friendly to him, convincing Squilf he had changed. I think he even winked at Hollyleaf or something
I was expecting cats like Silverhawk to be able to see their mates or loved ones in starclan once more and get a redemption that way. That's what I was excited for. Silverhawk even MENTIONS his mate to firestar and its focused on and so I was like "ohhh does this mean he might get to see her again?" it would have been SO narratively interesting for that to happen. like these dark forest cats being able to see their friends and family one more time before being unable to stay. I also was somewhat expecting something to happen with Maggottail becoming some sort of pseudo-leader of the dark forest and making it somewhat "better" in that he'd have a bunch of cats he'd hang out with and be slightly less miserable but (shrugs) good book overall. fucking devastating having to read rootsprings grief pov but very good and impactful
Yeah, I was super disappointed that the ending was "STARCLAN says we should change the warrior code :)" when it should have been "StarClan made this mistake, we are the living cats, and we will force them to listen to us and change the rules we live by."
OH i remembered the other part of what i wanted to say here. They do still have 3 moons to discuss changes to the warrior code with their Clans, im theorizing/hoping that the other clan cats might be like "actually we want to completely overhaul the warrior code" (spotfur didnt really get to say any of her opinions, for example) and starclan reacts negatively, thus a starless clan
Rootspring becoming Lionblaze 2 was a very entertaining thought. I'm glad they were willing to kill an actual main character, but like Moon said, I wish they allowed some of the cats who deserve to be in Starclan, actually go to Starclan.
I feel like this was 'pretty good for a Warriors book' which is good enough if you're still reading the series. I know my main gripe isn't with the ending but how we got there. The website even teased a lot of articles about 'Can there be REDEMPTION for these cats??' only for the book to slam the door in their noses and that's really messed up! If a writer (or writing team) sets up resonant thematic arcs then they need to put in the work to make the subversion of those themes believable, instead of horrifying and inexplicable. FIrestar's appearance is fine with the Rule of Cool because that chapter was fun and ultimately didn't make or break the story. He (and Graystripe) also inject some much needed levity into a story that runs between stressful and screamingly depressing that would otherwise have no relief in tone whatsoever. And Bristlefrost's family's experience at the end of this is just going to haunt me forever. Ugh. Here we go, waiting for the next one I guess...
For context, he's killed Russetfur and Harestar, he tried to killed Bramble/Ashfur and he wanted to execute Shadowsight. The dude has somehow become more dangerous than back when he was a bloodthirsty apprentice with uncontrollable powers.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Eh, Russetfur was trying to kill Firestar, and Lionblaze didn't even really try to fight her, she just kinda died once he touched her because she was so old
I may not have been able to read most of the books, but I can tell a lot of people were either sad or frustrated with ALITM Killing off characters we love can hit a wrong note in the fandom. I wonder what will happen in the new arc....All [Well, most] of our favourite old [as in from the frist arc] characters are gone...What will A Starless Clan bring to the table?
@@JustAGrook i think he can at least visit starclan he just chose not to stay permanently, plus an author (i think kate) confirmed that tallstar occasionally leaves starclan to see jake so i dont think staying is super enforced
I loved seeing Firestar come back at the end of this arc! And I understand why they killed off Bristlefrost, but her being gone forever was really emotional for me. Most cats who lose someone they love in life will get to see them again, and they have the comfort and reassurance that their spirit will be watching over them. But Rootspring and Bristlefrost's parents and siblings will never have that. It was kind of devastating to read.
It is quite interesting that Moonkitti was reasonably happy with the outcome of this book, while Akria had felt the opposite. It shows that different opinions are valid and not something to complain about.
The foreshadowing for Bristlefrost's death A Light in the Mist is REALLY good. I thought she was going to die via that water because she was so scared of it. She even brushed with death when she knocked over that tree. Redwillow's death counts as well.
"This is exactly whatever is wrong with Lionblaze I hope he inherited it from Firestar" guys what if Firestar got it from Jake Because then that would've gone to Scourge *what if Jake is the murder man*
no but the biggest kick in the teeth to ME is when shadowsight is told he can just never talk to starclan ever. and his connection to the place of no stars is gone too!! he gets nothing after being the punching bag of this entire arc and it makes me so sad. just let the boy connect with starclan and be the medcat he's always wanted to be oh my God
That rant about the Dark Forest/Starclan and the code changes is exactly what I was thinking. Edit: I'm also upset they didn't even mention Medicine Cats not being able to have mates. Like Rootspring was like "No Warrior can fight love." And several Medicine Cats including Leafpool were literally right next to him and none of them even mentioned how Medicine Cats have been "fighting love" for generations. That scene genuinely mad me mad.
@@foxygrin why tho?? Only possible reason Medicine Cats can't have kits is because they can't be in the nursery and they may need someone to assist them during pregnancy, so I think Mary Noble's rule is great
The whole idea of the dark forest cats not being allowed to redeem themselves can be fixed if it turns out that that's just a lie perpetuated by starclan because they're afraid that by letting a dark forest cat into starclan, they'll turn out to be just like ashfur. starclan's mistake wasn't that they didn't let a cat into starclan when they deserved it, but that they let a cat into starclan when they / didn't/ deserve it, so i think it's safe to assume that starclan would be very paranoid about letting bad cats into starclan after this arc, and dark forest cats were sent to the dark forest because they're bad, so starclan's paranoia would prevent dark forest cats from going to starclan even if they redeem themselves. this isn't me defending starclan btw it's just me trying to make sense of why that rule is in place. i honestly hope that starclan becomes more strict about who is allowed into starclan and that more cats end up in the dark forest who don't deserve it because of starclan's paranoia. it would set up a good conflict between the clans and starclan and when the living cats are all like "what the fuck is wrong with you starclan? why are you sending so many cats to hell?" it could lead to some much needed reformation and then the dark forest cats /could/ be redeemed once starclan fixes their shit. do i think this is what's going to happen in the next arc? no. do i trust the writers to handle this topic in a satisfying way? also no! so yeah unfortunately no matter how hard i try to make sense of starclan it's just. probably going to be poorly written forever... one can dream, though
I love how this book felt like it had genuine impact on the series. An impact I haven’t felt since Last Hope. We have one cat get their entire connection to StarClan cut off. A protagonist died. Graystripe is dead. Redwillow, Darktail, Darkstripe, and Snowtuft are dead. Mistystar did something for once. We got a Firestar POV (and yes, I did get super happy when we saw his POV and I was happy to see that childhood desire of Firestar murdering Darkstripe). We got some cool lore with Silverhawk too. That being said… there are a few things I don’t like. The redemption feels like it was planned and then Harper Collins went “whoa whoa whoa! You can’t do that!” The code was not changed all that much and I hated it. Hopefully they left it open ended on purpose in order to change it more in the next series.
Yeah, one thing I was really happy about was seeing Graystripe reuniting with his family in Starclan ☺️ But one thing that made me a bit uncomfortable was when they added that small part about Silverstream glaring at Millie and Briarlight. I mean she was never jealous before and was even accepting of Graystipe and Millie’s relationship. Did the Erins add that in to go with their insane headcannon that Graystipe chooses Silverstream despite only being with her a few months at the most instead of Millie, his current mate and the mother of his children and he has been with for MANY years. I really hope the Erins rectconn that like they did with Redtail being Sandstorm’s father, if they want to start making any sense these days. But I loved the rest of the story with me crying out in sadness for Bristlefrost, and me crying out in joy for Ashfur’s death.
On the topic of redemption/rehabilitation: I'm kinda wondering if we're going to get a Dark Forest cat redemption via reincarnation angle. They make a note of Silverhawk's mate Emberdawn being in neither StarClan or the Dark Forest. Another Emberdawn, from a time period Silverhawk could not have existed in, appeared in Leopardstar's Honor and later went to StarClan. Frecklewish, according to the recently updated family tree, wound up in the DF (let's ignore the reasoning behind that) and the SkyClan medicine cat is also named Frecklewish. Also was born a house cat, but you could wave that away as StarClan's will or whatever. Beetlewhisker was a cat that was killed in the DF, thus stuck there forever, but has not been mentioned since... and there is currently a Beetlekit in SkyClan. I'm probably overthinking, but I could also see them going with it. Their redemption would be a do-over: if their spirit is born in totally different circumstances, do they still commit to heinous actions? Still doesn't fix the issues with StarClan, or the Code, or anything else but perhaps the new arc could surprise us. There are some obvious downsides: perma-deaths like Bristlefrost's would feel less impactful, and we could see the return of Spottedleaf, Tigerstar, and the like. But I'm probably wrong anyway and just making connections where there aren't any. Still kinda strange to have two totally unrelated Emberdawns revealed in books released only a couple months apart, but I digress.
Starclans foolish decision to let ashfur in caused many deaths and suffering. They just live on unpunished. Also starclan: doesn’t give dark forest cats a second chance, bc it’s „pointless“ I would have liked a way for truly regretting dark forest cats to repent themselves and getting a 2. chance. The starclancats seemed very arrogant about it.
I was actually happy to learn that every Clan is taking the Bluestar route and turning on StarClan. Unless Ashfur managed to get even more OP in the Dark Forest so he could reach the living world anyway, none of The Broken Code would have happened if Yellowfang didn't let Ashfur into StarClan. Willowshine, Rosepetal, Daisy's kits, Strikestone, Berrynose, they would all have remained alive. StarClan wouldn't have almost been destroyed and perfectly good cats wouldn't have become Dark Forest slaves. Amazing how one decision can completely destroy your respect for a character in hindsight.
Great video! I get why people are annoyed that the code didn’t change that much, but they have an entire next arc to do that so in my opinion changing it massively at the end of ALITM would’ve felt rushed. And I also like that Squilf wasn’t in the final battle because she’s taking power back from Ashfur by ignoring him. The Bramblestar worship in this book felt really ham-fisted though, it was strange
The Bramble thing feels like a combination of 'authors view character differently than they actually wrote him to be' and a bunch of 'show don't tell' violations. It finally got through their heads somewhere along the line that even though they think he's a good person, the way they wrote him and the subsequent way everyone reads him are NOT the same, so rather than altering how they write him to align more with either side and amend the issue, they decide to take the lazy way out and just tell the reader over and over again that he's a good person, regardless of what his actions actually are, and instead of showing us through his actions that he's a good person. I remember there was another Moonkitti bit touching on that somewhere, using a character called 'Pikestar' in the illustrations, but I can't remember which video it was in. If I find it later, I'll come back and put the link
Have you ever seen Megamind? If you like Ashfur for being a realistic creep, I think it'd be right up your ally. Just take Ash's part in this arc and put it into a Dreamworks move. Not the crappy Dreamworks where they're trying too hard appeal to who the hell even knows (Monsters Vs Aliens, Boss Baby), the good Dreamworks with complex characters, witty dialogue, and engaging stories (Shrek, How To Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda). The tagline is "What if the villain won?" but the real question is "What if a creeper was given Superman's powers?" Fun, right?
I’ve been waiting for the Moonkitti video on this book since I finished reading it on Monday I think. I seriously had to hold back tears when I was reading Rootspring’s chapters after Bristlefrost died. It just hit me really hard that he just kinda- gave up? That’s not the right word, but that’s the kinda vibe I got from him. And when he kept trying to find her spirit it hit hard. ESPECIALLY WHEN IVY AND FERN WENT TO HIM AND WERE LIKE LET US SEE OUR DEAD DAUGHTER PLEASE AND THEN NOT BEING ABLE TOO WAS AAAAA
And then he did see her and their 3 three kits but it was all just a fantasy of what could and should have been : ) I've always liked BristlexRoot but man, they might be one of my favorite couples now.
I joined the fandom around two years ago. I’ve met many friends and grown as a person! I’m glad that I have these memories and I can’t wait for the next era of books.
From what I remember, cats in the dark forest can't feel hunger like at all, so they don't care that there's no prey. So apart from the few new little bits that were added, Dark forest cats have been dealing with the same cold, damp, foggy, and hungerless "life" with just the cute new editions of the poison blood river of death and the amazing "Wait, fuck, what year is it?" syndrome!
God. I was SO hoping that Mistystar would die. I was SO excited to see her END. But I do agree that Bristlefrost was probably the better choice. In the moment I was sort of hoping that Mistystar, as the RiverClan representative, would jump in and save Bristlefrost. How amazing would it be to have Mistystar disappear FOREVER AND EVER, especially with how much her character has been butchered in this arc. (She literally criticizes half-clan relationships/cats multiple times while being one herself and NO ONE calls her out on it!) Mistystar was already almost a senior warrior when Graystripe was BORN, she's ancient! Let her rest Erins!
As someone who initially was very upset that Squirrelflight was shut down for wanting to go on the mission to the dark forest to defeat Ashfur, your point had me fully reconsider this and seen it in a different light. Squirrelflight is my favorite character of the series and I 100% want to see her succeed, I love seeing her with agency and getting the spotlight she deserves. But you are very right, it is super important to bear in mind the implications of her and Ashfur's relationship. It isn't just some sort of rivalry where she is destined to defeat him, Ashfur IS an abusive cat and this whole series was him being controlling and abusive to her. Squilf agreeing not to go can be seen as just as impactful, she is recognizing that she doesn't owe Ashfur anything, she's fought her fight and doing anything more will put her in more danger, and that is a super important message for anyone in the process of leaving an abusive relationship. Even with just leaving any relationship; knowing that you no longer owe this person anything, you might not get the last words in the last conversation, and they may never truly understand your perspective, and allowing all of that to stay in the past so you can move on is a super important message. "It's breaking up with Ashfur via text" had me laughing because it is very true. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for your humor :)
i was crying and sobbing uncontrollably for the rest of the book and a couple hours after when bristlefrost died. i don't even know why, maybe bristlefrost's death already hurt, then the later chapters keep throwing punches with rootspring's grief and shadowsight's survivor's guilt. i really like how bristlefrost's death was written, though. i love how rootspring could pick up on her last thoughts when he looked for her, and i think it's a testament to her spirit that she was able to feel warmth and love in the literal Despair Water That Sucks Out Your Soul. ik some people have theories that faded cats might get reincarnated, and i hope it would happen, but even if it does, you could never really tell, they're never GOING to actually be bristlefrost again, at least from how i interpret things.
Shadowsight not being able to speak with StarClan anymore feels so sad to me. Its an interesting idea- he can only see into shadows and all. But it feels like one more burning punishment for falling victim to Ashfur's manipulation.
i feel like this arc has really cemented my negative perspective on starclan. the fact that they just relegated the "helpful" dark forest cats to linger on in hell in the end really rubs me the wrong way. we know that the dark forest cats can grow and change, and even regret the actions that landed them there in the first place- heck, kate cary herself commented on this when it came to snowtuft, who at least got... relief for his tortured soul. instead we get this ending, where the df cats go back to jail and juniperclaw gets to be... a cop? a warden? it's the closest that they can ever aspire to compared to being part of the in-group of thriving starclan cats. starclan "needs" the dark forest, and vice versa, according to starclan and... we have no reason to believe this! aside from our assumption that starclan is Good and the dark forest is Bad. For what it's worth, we've seen semi-innocent cats end up in the dark forest (antpelt), who's to say there aren't a few good cats in there? not all of them are tigerstars or hawkfrosts. yet starclan insists that their system is correct. the books want us to think that this is correct. because in their view, there can't be a top 1% of warrior cats unless *someone* gets screwed over. i legitimately believe that many of starclan's actions throughout the series are done out of self-preservation: targeting cats that could be a threat to starclan's power before they get a chance to. sol was a potential threat, so they pressured leafstar into her reluctance toward training him. they set him up to fail. then when he was pressured to prove himself, he was set on the track that would get him exiled. mudclaw? bam, lightning, tree. even the power of three prophecy was met with extreme reluctance by starclan: not knowing where the three's powers came from was a source of stress for them. they only became cooperative when it became clear that the Three were the only tool they could use to win the great battle. who's to say they didn't see ashfur as a threat in the first place, and that's why they insisted on making brambleclaw deputy? what about the idea of an ashstar reviled starclan so much, before he turned into the ashfur we know today? in the recent books, there is a line where they mention ashfur as having "the power of the stars in his paws." i chalk this up to the authors not realizing the importance of that phrase and just throwing it around for shock value, but who's to say ashfur's *spooooky* powers dont come from the same source as the Three? it's possible they saw him as a threat long before, and set him up to shatter the way he did leading up to the fire scene, and ultimately the broken code. in my mind, starclan is a sort of mafia that gets rid of its targets and plays it off as "good" for the clans, when in reality, they're just scared they might be overshadowed or forgotten. the fact that they just shut up cats they dont like via prophecy, dark forest imprisonment, or Sudden Death is just proof of that. basically, sol was right
Absolutely live for this theory, even though there are some cats in StarClan I adore and would never call evil enough to scheme like this. Like Firestar, and... yeah, Firestar.
i need a warriors au or a whole fucking ripoff series where starclan works out of self preservation and a fear of being abandoned by the clans im DESPERATE
Excuse me I'll have you know that at 22 I did infact go "Oooo Firestar!" lmfao. I also laughed my ass off when he immediately just murked Darkstripe like "by bitch"
This is a late comment, but I absolutely love the way they killed off Bristlefrost. Like, compared to the way the important poeple are killed off, they killed Bristlefrost in the way that she LITERALLY ceases to exist. It's kind of fascinating. She didn't die in a duel, she didn't die of age or sickness, she didn't even have to redeem herself. She sacrificed her literal existence. She literally just ceased to exist. Soul and body. What a way to kill a protagonist. It shocked me quite a bit when I read it. Edit: I also love the satisfaction of Ashfur's death. Something about him not existing is extremely satisfying.
The cat I feel worst for here isn't rootspring. Its Ivypool. The dark forest has taken so much from her. Ending with *permanently* taking her daughter.
StarClan is just too full of themselves. They knew that they made mistakes, but are refusing to fix them. They let cats like Mudclaw and Clear Sky and Ashfur into the Dark Forest, while Juniperclaw, Snowtuft, and various other cats that didn't really do anything wrong/redeemed themselves are denied entrance. Also, Needletail, who spend her entire life trying to destroy her clan and only decided against it last minute is allowed on in. While cats who have tryed.ovdr and over to be a better person--er cat are just shoved aside. It's sickening. Moon stated that the Dark Forest is a horrible, horrible, just awful place. It's depressing to read about, and it makes me feel sorry for those cats who did only one thing wrong to be suffering forever while actual, literal murders are prancing around in StarClan. It makes sense why cats like Snowtuft tried to turn themselves into a better cat. And if he hadn't died, he should've been allowed access to StarClan. He was a good guy. But that didn't happen. Because StarClan refuses to fix their mistakes. They're too prideful. It's just sickening. Why does everyone put all their faith in StarClan? Why does everyone look up to StarClan? Sol was 100% correct.
It's not 'Starclan' whose two prideful, who refuse to fix their mistakes, it's the Erins. They're a bunch of old-fashioned old hags who believe that if you're bad ONCE, you can never become a better person, which is a sickening and toxic take. Someone needs to rip the writing privileges away from them, they CLEARLY don't know how to write a compelling story without garbage takes.
I'm not all that dissapointed with the small changes to the Warrior Code. I think starting out small and taking another few books to explore what these changes would look like in canon is a good idea, especially considering we're starting a new arc. In terms of most cats resisting the change, I feel that this is because the Warrior Code is very much the scripture of the Clans. It is heavily tied to their religion, and this is something that has been highly consistent throughout the entire series. The Warrior Code is designed to inspire stubborness and resistance to change in order to keep itself alive, which is very similar to how many real world religions work. I hope that A Starless Clan will incorporate these ideas into its plot, which based on River's blurb, is likely but not 100% confirmed yet. Additionally, I may be 18 but I was still that 12 year old kid excited to see Firestar in this book. Having recently reread The Prophecies Begin, he has become one of ny favourite characters and I have no shame in saying that lol.
It feels so refreshing to have all that's messed up with starclan and the dark forest put into words. It's just weirdly unfair and arbitrary. Lazy writing probably? But they know their target audience is kids, so why? A 12 yo will walk away from these books thinking starclan are the "good" guys so everything they do is "good". Not think about it critically. And it will be easy to project themselves in that position and that's it's own can of worms.
I think you're underestimating 12 year olds. When I saw the Juniperclaw scene where he got sent to guard to hell, I threw the book to the ground angrily and everyone looked at me weird. And I am 11.
ALSO. ashfur has almost THE same character arc as gideon from gravity falls and it’s WEIRD. he starts out as a minor threat, and a lot of his character is just. infatuated and obsessed with this girl. and is just trying to Obtain Her even when she is clearly not interested. he does some pretty messed up things and it always involves Getting This Girl that doesn’t want him. these actions result in the character becoming somehow incapacitated (jail/dead) and during this time he just dwells and get worse. somehow the character obtains dangerous and supernatural abilities and very nearly destroys the entire world hoping that in the end they will Have This Prize. only for another character to (at least try to) talk them back to reality and get through to them that there is no way that they will get the girl now. one of these characters realizes this and makes a change for the better. ashfur was not that one.
Aside from being hit by nostalgia from seeing Gravity Falls, this is honestly a really good analysis of the similarities between Gideon and Ashfur and their overall arc in each of their respective series. Hm, now I wonder if there are any lines by Gideon that can fit Ashfur too. "The entire Pines (Firestar) family have invoked my fury! You will all pay recompense for your transgressions!" - Ashfur after Squirrelflight rejects him, and he plans with Hawkfrost to kill Firestar. "This isn't over. This isn't the last you'll see of li'l.... ol'.... me...." - Ashfur after he dies, and plots his revival in StarClan. "Finally after all these years, after every humiliation! Your business, your family, everything will finally be mine! You have no one to protect you now!" Ashfur after stealing Bramblestar's body. "Dipper Pines (Shadowsight), you don't know what you've done! You've just made the biggest mistake of your life!" - Ashfur manipulating Shadowsight. "Face it, kid, you're nothing without that journal. No muscles. No brains. What are you gonna do kid, huh? What are you gonna do?" Ashfur to either Shadowsight or Rootspring.
I think that for some of the dark forest cats, the ONE thing keeping them going was the prospect of invading the living world of starclan, then possessing people to escape. The ONE thing worth pursuing: a way out; an escape from this suffering that the less evil or more nuancedly bad ones (Juniperclaw/Redwillow) knew they didn't deserve or warrant in life.
Theory: bris's spirit was saved last moment, and shoved into frostpaw. So bris inside her mind, (kind of like cinderheart) tells her things she could never know, and she tells that to others, leading them go believe that she has a special connection to starclan, hence the ederweiss blurb. So, when mothwing and/or Mistystar dies, and let's face it mothwing will die this arc, frostpaw will be expected to be trained by ghosts. But she can't actually speak to them, that's just bris. So epic quest or smth, bris and frostpaw fight yada yada yada, finchpaw is evil or smth flamepaw pulls a fireheart sunbeam pulls a lionblaze with boring chapters arc done. Supporting evidence: Bris and frosp have similar names, each with frost in them, symbolism Bris and frosp have same pelt and eye colors, symbolism Entirety of ederweiss blurb or however you spell it And yes I have supporting evidence of finchpaw is evil! No I don't Kate Cary said not to trust her but she has no power over the books. But I think it would be interesting for a direct ancestor to Firestar and who looks a lot like him to be evil, and for her sibling, who does not look like Firestar, flamepaw, defeat him. I also said pulls a fireheart in the since he would become leader. That means squilf retires/dies and bramble would die but I don't think anybody cares about him. I don't think the Erin's have the guts to do any of this, but it would be cool! No idea bout sunbeam tho I think her chapters might be boring
@@quietsong2583 same way the explained the three's powers, they don't. Probably saved by the same higher power that gave the three their powers though, tbh
Haven't read a lick of these books, but I had a theory: if there is a normal access point from starclan to the dark forest, that implies that cats should be able to cross over. However, Dark Forest cats can't do this, for reasons you do not explain, making me think it's left vague. And Ashfur has figured out a way to lock down that normal path and the moon pool through negative emotions. What if _that_ is the mechanism separating Dark Forest and StarClan? Star Clan cats can walk in and out as they please, but when Dark Forest cats try, being so full of negative emotions, the path locks up to them. This would also mean redemption could be possible; if a Dark Forest cat truly lets go of their negative emotions and atones, maybe the path won't close up when they approach?
Big agree with pretty much everything. I'm also sad that snowtuft was never like explained? He just says he forgot what he did in life to put him there which makes me. think he's there by mistake And I hope that he gets a novella. But I like this book I thought the last two were okay boring but okay I enjoyed this one a lot more. I hope the next arc they do change the code more for this called starless clan. I dislike starclan more than ever moth wing was right
Brand new podcast when tho /hj Long comment with everything one at a time woo About the forest reflecting Ashfur's thoughts, it would have been nice for them to show that more clearly, maybe have the trees and forest distorting when he's upset or just....anything more than just a slow fading away. Briss dying is really cool because Rootspring is HORRIFIED by the idea of potentially killing someone/what firestar did in his body, while she is ready to commit a kill on ashfur. Starclan just. sucks. I'm holding onto a little bit of hope that the main characters pick fights with them in the next arc, but as for THIS SPECIFIC arc, its absolute nonsense how they treated the dark forest cats.
Shattered Sky was the last book in a vision of shadows, actually. That three book series was kind of refreshing though, amiright? Anyways, I’m waiting for all the Ashfur X Darktail ship art to come across my feed, if nobody contributes I might have to step in.
@@bubbaberriboo I didn’t stop reading after shattered sky but I like to believe that shattered sky was the true final book in a vision of shadows, there was nothing else the arc had to offer afterwards honestly lol, plus it had one of the best final battles imo
@@AD-ts6gq shattered sky was the last book i read because i was like… there is no way they can top this. not sure i’ll ever get to reading more since i forgot most of what happened lmao
Almost like these series should be 3 books long instead of 6 books long, or 2 series merged into one all along- or at the very least after Prophecies begin. It's much too stretched out.
It's also interesting that Juniperclaw, who poisoned SkyClan because he thought it was the only way to help his Clan survive, went to the Dark Forest. Meanwhile Needletail, who actively worked to destroy her Clan and only turned her life around once her boyfriend was killed, was allowed into StarClan despite the fact both sacrificed themselves for their Clans (though in Needletail's case she died fixing a mess she created herself)
Needletail is so holier-than-thou 🙄 she practically rubs it in Juniperclaw's face that she's there and he isn't
@@riverstaffordshire4312
There's a lot wrong with Needletail that's just ignored, like how she pretty much spent her entire life emotionally abusing/manipulating Violetkit/paw. It's never addressed and she's seen as a good character
@@TQuinn-yy9wy oh I agree, I really hate how everyone acts like she was ✨misunderstood✨ when she dug her own grave and ruined Violetshine's life, but manipulated her into thinking Needletail was the best friend she's ever have
Needletail has a boyfriend??
@@bluffcat. Rain
The idea that Lionblaze inherited his bloodlust from Firestar, who on reflection did enjoy fighting a good deal more than most protagonists... is mind blowing. This is canon now as far as I'm concerned.
I loved reading about Firestar coming back from kitty heaven and being like, ah, finally, I GET TO MURDER ONCE MORE.
Noblest leader there ever was
I have been thinking quite a bit about this. At the very least, Firestar is one of, if not the best, fighter the series has ever seen. He bested Tigerclawstar multiple times, a warrior that most had hailed as a fantastic and brutal fighter, and then killed Scourge, the cat who killed Tigerstar in two blows! Years later, as almost an elder, he killed Tigerstar’s ghost, someone who’s been training for that very fight for YEARs. Lionblaze, by contrast, was scarred multiple times while having powers that were supposed to protect him from all harm. Honestly, the guy is kind of a wimp
@@songbird6414 True. I though the scene in the broken code where he confronts Tigerstar, and he immediately beats up him, was really funny.
Y E S 🤣
plus when Jayfeather found him in his dream when he was saving starclan after finding out he was the 4th cat
DUDE WAS LEGIT HAVING A DREAM ABOUT FIGHTING OVER SUNNINGROCKS
Ok, but. I LOVE that the authors left Squilf out of the final battle. When it comes to abuse victims, a lot of representation goes, “oh, let’s have a big scene where they kick their ass when they demand attention! But oh no! It’s what they wanted!” I’m so happy they didn’t do that with her. She deserves the respect and attention to the arc she somehow didn’t get before? Anyways, having Graystripe tell her she doesn’t need to confront him, how it would even be healthier for her to leave him in the past, is amazing. It’s against all other representation of abuse victims, and it’s actually great advice IRL and sets a great healing goal for victims in these situations.
warriors did a 180 with the abuse aspect tbh
this is a very good point! I still wish Bramblestar could have gone and kicked Ashfur's tail at least once, but I really liked this!
i know one of the erins saw bramblestar is worse 😭
Yeah. Now that you mention it, it is a great lesson for readers of all ages, especially those in abusive relationships, or those who WERE in abusive relationships, as you said. Squirrelflight will be ok. She just has to know that the past is the past and she can heal from it.
This! Squirrelflight confronting Ashfur would be giving him everything he wants. The way it went down is good to show the audience and a great victory for a cat who at this point just deserves some peace and happiness.
Erins: *gives Snowtuft a sympathetic background and teases the interesting possibility of a Dark Forest cat getting his own place in StarClan*
Also Erins: Silly Snowtuft, StarClan is for most of the good cats!
I call Snowtuft the "Hell Marshmallow". I sometimes draw him with Snowkit because why not, plus that hole Ashfur dug was left unguarded for a while so it's quite possible to write a situation where a cat just falls in it with no easy way out.
I'm hoping they resolve this. The living cats were uncomfortable with the dark forest cats not being allowed in, it would be stupid not to do something with that. Basically what im saying is asc cast overthrow starclan xx
@@fanpet3912 YES. I have a few OC stories I've made with StarClan-distrusting cats as the protags, and honestly it would be nice to see a canon protagonist realize how messed up StarClan is.
Hopefully they do something about that in a starless clan
@@ZirconiaGacha no the reason why they are “similar” as in people’s head-cannons IS BECAUSE THEY WERE BOTH DONE DIRTY
One thing I absolutely LOVE about this book is the way shadowsight reacts when ashfur is truly gone. It’s so heartbreaking in the way he feels and talks about it and I find that it’s so weirdly similar (as a warrior cats book) to a real life abusive situation. The emptiness he feels and the way he misses ash after ashfur manipulated and used him hurts SO MUCH and it’s so painfully real. idk if I just love shadowsight or what but man,, 😭
It bothers me some people in the fandom seem to see this is a bad ending for Shadowsight. It’s not, it’s realistic, and Shadowsight is even optimistic at the end. Leafpool tells him he’ll need time to heal. He isn’t “as broken” as before, he’s just freshly wounded and needs time to heal. It’s realistic, if you’ve ever been hurt like that you’d know.
@@anoushkashenoy692 RIGHT!! it’s just realistic ?? I think people just wanted him to suddenly have this jump to being really happy after ash was gone because that’s often the quota with these books and even the expectation of some people in real life but it’s just not how people (or cats) work. He really does need to heal and I also wish people would understand that
@@remanoir5762 Also feeds into that mentality that people who are abused/manipulated are “forever broken” imo. I don’t like that mentality. They just need help and time to heal. It’s human to be hurt. I like that it’s gradual for him because it shows that you don’t need to immediately be happy/recover once the bad thing in your life gone. It’s OK to have been sad. It’s a part of healing.
And yet his ending is so empty...leaves him with SUCH a depressing ending
@@remanoir5762 Not to mention that quota of expecting people to just suddenly be happy after abusers leave their lives in some way is feeding into that very toxic "perfect victim" stereotype which I'm SO tired of.
*Adults dont get the childlike joy of seeing Firestar again*
Meanwhile, me, at 25, losing my shit and tearing up bc he's back to kick his daughter's abusers ass
He didn't kill Bramblestar though
I was very disappointed at Snowtuft's off page death. He was one of the most interesting characters in the arc.
Yeah I thought he would change to starclan and well maybe get revisited honestly a story arch about dark forest cats being able to be “helped” by starclan having giving us some baddies in starclan to mess the clans up
why do the erins fuck up their books with cliche shit like this
I cannot agree more. This is one character that had CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT woah. His off screen death was honesty a terrible ending and I can confidently say the Erin’s screwed up.
@@pieisgood3287 honestly not shocking considering their horrible writing in the past, some of which moonkitti has gone over
Tbh I expected him to be reincarnated into one of Bristlefrosts and Rootsprings kits
Okay but can we talk about when Mapleshade called Houndleap a “tail-licker.” 10/10 loved it
Damn Mapleshade we're in a teens book wth
I think Bristlefrost’s death was a good move purely because the main series often doesn’t kill off POV characters while they’re still being a POV character. Grey Wing is the only other one I can think of. Excluding all the novellas, super editions, etc. It’s unexpected and it was really emotional. The Erins are usually scared to kill off popular/main characters and they often let them get ridiculously old.
Am sad about Snowtuft though. He could have been a start to StarClan allowing Dark Forest cats to redeem themselves to join StarClan’s rank. He got some cool development so it’s sad they cut it short.
honestly the only time they let pov characters die is if its a novella or super edition FOCUSED on the cats entire life, and even then they dont usually write the death itself they just kinda skip to the manga where theyre dead
@@iwakeupandboomimarat Exactly!!! Grey Wing and Bristlefrost are the only POV characters to die while they’re a POV character in the main series/arcs. And with how many series there are there should be more. The Erins are so hesitant now, everyone grows to be so so old because they don’t wanna get rid of ‘em. I mean, look at Mistystar. I think she’s nearly 17 years old??? What happened to the Clan cats usually not making it that long haha. It just ends up making the Clans overpopulated and makes the danger seem a lot less if everyone’s making it to super old.
Plus it’s more impactful!
bristlefrost should have never died and been left to live until the ripe old age of mistystar
Juniperclaw gets to be the guardian of hell but still gets to have his sanity ebbed away? I cannot see how that could go wrong at all.
My new headcanon: the more evil Ashfur gets the more hair shampoo he uses, so his hair got longer. Gotta look good for murder ig.
He's basically Rapunzel but if Rapunzel was evil and her hair showed how evil she was
@@arrowskywalkertheweirdo Yes exactly 😌💅✨
*One Winged Angel starts playing*
Shadowsight, as you said, was hurt more in this arc than ANY other character. To have him be killed off would be a M I S E R A B L E experience!
Don't kill the fluffy Shadow baby! He's a good medicine cat! He's trying, and he's finally been accepted!
And, yes, Firestar was a funny cat in this book. His relationship with Graystripe has been rekindled! And now that Graystripe is in Starclan with him, they're all together now.
also the implications of killing shadowsight are TERRIBLE. he's been a victim this whole series, tried to KILL HIMSELF TO SAVE OTHERS LIKE TWICE, he believes that he's better off dead. killing him in this arc has horrible fucking implications
@@gayratparker yes!!! the suicidal cat killing himself is extremely disturbing and i don’t understand why people want him to die sm
@@anoushkashenoy692 I don't, either. Let the fluffy boi be happy! He's already suffered enough!
I was honestly kinda annoyed that Firestar was thrown in to this book, like, he has been the hero so many times now, I would have loved to see another Prophecies Begin cat deal with Darkstripe. But Graystripe and Firestar's reunion was pretty freaking adorable qwq
@@Kestrelbee Indeed, Firestar and Graystripe's reunion was heartwarming and special.
*can we please discuss Leafpool’s moment of “I had to convince starclan to let me in.” Like why. Why is Yellowfang automatically in starclan but leafpool had to convince them?*
According to Mothflight, they didn’t do a whole trial with her because she suffered more in her living life than Mothflight ever knew or something-
@@marijougonzalez8437 That is very weird. This arc did Leafpool so wrong
@@tockalaluz So true, the whole thing was absolutely ridiculous
Because Yellowfang is actually the reincarnation of an ancient godess of cats, so she obviously gets a free pass into starclan and is given the position of leader of it. At least, that's the most convincing explanation I can think of for why some much weird shit happened with her since arc 3.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 I’m honestly glad Yellowfang didn’t have any involvement in these past few arcs
Juniperclaw even redeemed himself partially in life when he saved Shadowsight, that makes no sense that he wouldn’t be slowed in StarClan when both Ashfur and Mudclaw and Clear Sky are in StarClan having done things just as bad
@@siobhannoble8545 Yeah, what is Onestar doing in star clan? If there was ever someone who deserved the dark forest, it's him. Tallstar's worst decision was putting this people pleaser in charge.
As long as Clear Sky, CLEAR FUCKING SKY, of all cats are in starclan, they should let anyone in, especially cats like Juniperclaw 😓
When everyone was dogpiling on Juniperclaw and saying ‘you could have put elders and kits at risk!’ I was just thinking of Onestar next to them like ‘… imagine that.’
@@xRaiofSunshine Well this is precisely why they don't let everyone in. Clear Sky has a lot of control over StarClan. So until Clear Sky dies for good, there's no way StarClan could realistically improve.
And don't forget Oakstar the kit-killer!
The open starclan psuedo-christianizing is super, super uncomfortable to me at this point. Just full on ghost kitty facism, and especially when they establish that star clan cats CAN let dark forest cats see/enter star clan or move between the two, this is a choice, an existentially terrifying choice.
Like which cats are secretly dark forest cats that manage to pass as star clan cats?
@@enderwalkgang Furzepelt for one. Like I'm sorry not only did she train in the Dark Forest but she remained a total bitch her whole life and even mocked ThunderClan for missing Firestar even though she shares the blame for his final death.
If Lilywhisker goes to the DF just for being bitter over losing her leg then Furzepelt should also go down for just being bitter in general.
@@graphitetailgrace3870 The Lilywhisker stuff isn't canon.
@@graphitetailgrace3870 Wasn't the Lilywhisker stuff from Sue Susan
@@Clooover Sue Susan? No, it was from Vicky's Facebook.
Juniperclaw did NOT deserve what he got, he wasn't really bad he admitted he was just trying to help but made a mistake. I like him as a character now, I honestly did not expect he would be in the Dark Forest.
Nobody is talking about the fact that MISTYSTAR IS STILL ALIVE AND STILL HAS MOST OF HER LIVES LEFT???
Did she lose one in the great battle against dark forest
HELP SHES LIKE 30 HUMAN YEARS OLD ISNT THAT LIKE 120 😭
@@lavender_aa3184 shes 14 years old
Mistystar is around 14~16 years old
@@bobtirona3871 she hasnt canonically lost any lives tho i think, i think an erin said shes lost SOME lives
I hope next arc lets Mothwing tear starclan a new one before she inevitably dies. I'm just gonna be so damn ticked if they send her to starclan and she suddenly becomes all "starclan is great actually" or gets a "redemption arc" where she learns to be a good little starclan worshipper
I hope she gets to StarClan, but not before having a reunion with Sasha and Tadpole
I honestly hope ( this will sound bad) that Mothwing does not go to Starclan. She doesn’t believe in Starclan. I want to see her in like a place that’s in between Starclan and the dark forest. Or just gone, none of starclan or dark forest.
@@wildfeather4865 Like Scourge and Bone? Or like Jake?
Honestly, imagine an arc about Mothwing going to Starclan and starting to praise it and protagonists focusing on how messed up it is and how they brainwash the cats going there? Like imagine if the arc focused on a cat with special connection to the afterlife (like Jayfeather) realising Starclan is just hell lite and there is a different, actual heaven, that exists. Perhaps it would be the place that sent the powers and prophecies (since Starclan doesn't do all of them) while Starclan is more of a purgatory... and when the cat dies for the second time they get sent to the kitty heaven where there is no drama or anything like that and they act more like a ghostly mass/god. And the purely good cats who are in Starclan actually just decided to go to purgatory because they prefer to keep their faulty personality and engage with living cats? Like a trade for being forever fulfulled and happy in heaven is becoming a part of that mass, completely disconnected from physical reality and failure
Sorry, I know it won't ever happen but maybe I will write a headcanon like this
@@billcipher8645 I want a trippy MAProject about this
I SEVERELY dislike Starclan as a whole. But this book makes me wonder if it's possible for cats to form their own sect of Starclan, away from the prophecies and trials and such. Like a little kitty Heaven Haven.
They probably can. After all the tribe got their own heaven so makes sense others can do the same
@@sandywolfr26 However that could be a different thing entirely. Given we have no idea how life after death works, cat books or not, we don't know if maybe the Tribe of Endless Hunting is a completely different afterlife than Starclan or the same thing in different areas. Afterlife doesn't have to confine to Earthly logic and I don't think it realistically _would._ I think given it's a matter of soul/spirit and belief, and that those two things are tied so closely in Warriors, that Starclan and the Tribe of Endless Hunting are completely different "planes" if you will. Where their heart and mind is truely most loyal in is where their spirit will be guided, hence why cats with good intent can still be sent to the Dark Forest.
Hahah! I’ve had my oc clan doing that for a while-
*stares at my group of all abandoned main ocs who I was too attached to to let them be annoying but didn’t want them alive*
Yes! I agree, I feel like this book was a step in the right direction for Starclan though
Honestly i always think we could use more mortals declare a revolutionary war on the gods stories but idk if this series could handle that
i think this book having bristlefrost as the main cover cat wouldve been SOOO BETTER. her and bramble couldve literally traded spots cause having bramble in the veil of shadows cover makes a decent amount of sense aswell
i have no opinion on the actual book. i just like cover art (smiles)
Wait...
THAT WAS BRIS?
YES omg that fits so much better its infuriating !
@@starcycle4308 Yes, that’s Bristle. Although the book’s describe her as pale-gray and she appears more dark gray on the cover. But I’m pretty sure they just told the artist “gray and blue eyes, get to work”
I like how they handled the whole "Squirrelflight and Ashfur not having a big end scene" thing. They could've made Squirrelflight have this whole "confrontation" with Ashfur but Graystripe was right and that would've give Ashfur what he wanted: to see that he played such a big role in her unhappiness and made her suffer after all. But instead Squirrelflight moved on and realised that she didn't need to prove anything to Ashfur.
Edit: Holy Hollyleaf! How did I get so many likes? I'm just a 13 year old who uses good grammar and worships Ashfur's hair.
they already had a big scene in Power of 3 and there is no need for a second one
the last book made some really great narrative decisions
WHYRE YOU EVERYWHERE??
@@coffeebeean. Because you can't escape me 😈
@@blondeashfur3445 🤺🤺 back to the black hell death water of ceasing to exist
a cat who committed serious wrongs in his life can die and be welcomed into starclan despite having no true regret. and he will be treated just as well as the other starclan cats, even the one that killed him seems to be willing to move past it. he can then dwell on the events and choices of when he was alive and make the decision to reject starclan and cause harm. and when he is defeated starclan themselves will say that yes he was evil and yes he deserved to have been sent to the dark forest.
a different cat will do something wrong and evil in his life and try to make up for it one last time before dying, only to be sent to the dark forest. he can spend all his time there reflecting on his life and past decisions and decide that he wants to do good and strive for redemption. only for starclan to tell him that he will never be allowed into their hunting grounds because he had already made those evil decisions and whether he regrets it or not he must deal with the consequences (for literally eternity).
i hate it here
How about Vicky's Facebook post updating the Dark Forest population? Lilywhisker is in the Dark Forest for being angry over her injured leg forcing her to retire, Brightflower is in the Dark Forest for feeling grief and betrayal over everything that happened to her and her kin, Tangleburr and others are in the Dark Forest for no fucking specified reason.
At this point it feels like just breathing on a leader can get you sent to the Dark Forest while cats who actively commit codebreaks are allowed into StarClan. Makes me utterly despise certain cats in hindsight.
*eternal screaming :D*
@@graphitetailgrace3870 im sorry but the lilywhisker thing has always made no sense. she literally did NOTHING wrong or against the warrior code, she was just internally angry that a freak accident left her disabled. the erins do not know how to write disabled characters and im not sure why they keep doing it
Starclan is rly rly stupid! Not all the cats fhat are in, but like... wht?! A bunch of a dead cats with LigHt decides the destiny of the other cats, starclan was/is bad a lot of times and let cats be abused without say a heck! But if they want something with no sense they have it? Even if a cats dies! Or more! Is like a spoiled brat, maybe someday the cats who are good/want to change goes to starclan :/
Graystripe: * dies * finally, I can see my one true love
Squirrelflight: huh? Silverstream or millie?
Graystripe: firestar
Akira: bristle shouldn’t have died!
Moonkitti *just because I’m the one who called it doesn’t mean you gotta be salty*
Moonkitti autocorrected to moonlight
Bristle what-
Ok I should get off this video before I get seriously spoiled
@@featherlikescartoons5098 thanks for telling me
@@almaszericebean1401 yeah-
In canon Firestar tried to kill Clawface and outright killed Scourge and felt no remorse for either, so yeah Firestar has all the murder genes
Akira: "I dislike Bristlefrosts death."
Moon: "I love Bristlefrosts death!"
Akira: "I dislike the epilogue."
Moon: "I love the epilogue!"
Akira: "I dislike how Squirrelflight doesn't face Ashfur."
Moon: "I love how Squirrelflight doesn't face Ashfur!"
Akira: "I dislike Firestar's and Greystripe's returns as big plot points."
Moon: "I love Firestar's and Greystripe's returns as big plot points!"
Wait what epilogue
The last five chapters
My favorite thing about the scene where StarClan refuses to let the Dark Forest cats in is Gray Wing and Skystar are the ones who enforced the "you can't mess up ever" rule. Like. Skystar? Clear Sky? CLEAR SKY, MURDERER AND WAR-STARTER EXTRAORDINAIRE says if you break the rules once you immediately go to hell?
Especially since the damn code didn't even exist when they were alive! Why do they feel so strongly about it?
Clear Sky created the word hypocrite.
i like the term "war-starter extraordinare" it fits clear sky
One of my biggest annoyances was Grey Wing's cameo. It was cute that him and Skystar (alias Clear Sky) had such a friendly rapport in the afterlife, I liked that. But Grey Wing, of all cats, should not be this exclutionary. Sure, he could be strict sometimes in Dawn of the Clans, but he's speaking so highly about the Warrior Code and "being a warrior" in this, despite dying long before those terms were even invented. Grey Wing was inclusive to outsiders and hated rigidity. I thought it was very out of character for him. Please, Erins, don't ruin my favourite character!
Also, Snowtuft deserved better.
honestly i feel like when ANY cat goes to starclan they get a StarClan Personality where they preach the goodness of the warrior code and clan separation and traditions in general, even if they were born before the code, technically went against the code or who were even critical of starclan (kind of played as a joke but when firestar asks why starclan has to be so cryptic with their prophecies and they continue to be cryptic and never explain why)
Moonkitti covered literally everything I was thinking about this book. At this point, she’s just a good voice for the general community’s views on the books. (Obviously with some nuance and disagreements, but overall general idea and complaints)
Pfft-
Bloodlust firestar
Lionblaze inheriting bloodlust from firestar is just the funniest thing XD
Yeah, but it was Darkstripe, you can’t tell me it wasn’t justified
Congratulations to Mistystar who outlived Graystripe 🥲
I think Barley is still kicking somewhere, two.
I hope Bramblestar sends a patrol to Barley and Stormfur to let them know of Graystripe’s passing, that would be nice, hopefully they mention something like that in River.
@@Shaun_Jones honestly he MIGHT be, but he doesnt have a canon age so unfortunately we cant say whos older out of misty or barley
@@Sheedystar_the_cat and find barley's rotting corpse
@@juniper5604 I assume if he did die WarriorClan would have buried him
Honestly, something that I would really like to see in the future is some Spotfur and Rootspring interactions. And maybe even raise Spotfur’s kits together. Not as mates, but as friends.
Bristlefrost loved and adored the kits, even though she’ll never get the chance to meet them. She swore to stay by Spotfur’s side and help raise the kits. Because Bristlefrost is no longer there, along with Stemleaf being dead, Spotfur no longer has anyone to turn to for help, or be there for her and the kits.
I feel like Rootspring would take up BristleFrost’s part in caring for the kits, in a way to honor her.
I doubt this would happen but I think it would be really sweet and something that Rootspring might think about
I'd love if Rootspring got privileges as Light in the Mist to visit Spotfur and check up on her kits. I agree they shouldn't be mates, but I hope eventually Rootspring will be able to move forward and be with someone else, maybe Turtlecrawl.
I was going to say Bristlefrost would love to watch him move on, be loved and have kits- from StarClan, but...
this is very unrelated but those capital letter suffixes make my eyes bleed
@@antfangz LMAFO, just saw this- I have absolutely no idea why I added the capitals between the suffixes and prefixes. I wanted to vomit when I reread what I wrote
I absolutely love your rant about the morality of Dark Forest cats having no chance at redemption. The show The Good Place is basically centered around that concept as well-- if the afterlife is infinite, then how does it make sense to permanently judge/punish a soul based on the decisions they made in a finite life?
Ahh yes that was exactly why The Good Place was such an impactful sitcom
The show even ends with giving people in The Bad Place and those still living a chance of redemption through trials
As someone who no longer really reads the books anymore but is still in the fandom, thank you Moon for keeping me in the loop with these cats.
a light in the mist had my favorite ending out of any warriors book so far. i Love how they wrote bristlefrost drowning and then rootspring's guilt, and how shadowsight was actually feeling the effects of being in the dark forest for too long, even if it was short lived.
I think this series represents a deliberate attempt on the part of the editors to identify problems in the Warriors franchise and correct them. The books were getting too prophecy-heavy, so they wrote a plotline where no one can talk to Starclan. The fans were getting tired of forbidden relationships, so they changed the warrior code to make that less of an issue. The last few series lost direction in their second halves, so they wrote a series with a planned ending point (but it still ran thin in the middle). Recent series kept changing villains, so this one has a present and obvious villain all the way through. I hope this trend continues, because some really good books could come out of it. To my mind they still haven't gone nearly far enough.
omg i really hope you're right
...I still liked dawn of the clans and a vision of shadows more than the broken code, tbh. The later doesn't seem like a very popular opinion.
i hope a starless clan continues this trend tbh, in my eyes warriors NEEDS a good, long lasting upheaval of the status quo with long term impacts, or its just gonna be the same shit with new gray cats
Something I found depressing but also pretty funny was in the Gathering at the very end Dovewing and Lionblaze were some of the cats questioning the decision to make changing clans an option when 1. Dovewing literally did that. For love. And 2. Tf Lionblaze did you forget about ur mom and the whole mess with Heathertail when you were apprentices?? Lionblaze’s hypocrisy in this series in general is very funny to me
Lionblaze is such an inherently stupid character at this point lmao. He’s just a psycho toxic masculinity muscle guy at this point. His character literally makes no sense.
I feel like “A starless clan” will be the start of the clans giving the middle finger to starclan
Edit: Also I want an arc that focuses on Warriorclan. I get that it’s very unlikely, but I really want an arc of Warriorclan, or any clan other than the main five. Please. Pretty please. I just want to see life in the same universe that is outside the clans for once
I have the exact same thoughts for the new arc. I do hope the Clans can understand why StarClan really sucks
Wait what’s Warriorclan? I just started re reading the books
@@allwatchsomeshitpost after the Clans left the forest, kittypets founded WarriorClan off Barley's stories.
@@NapaCat oh
i really do wanna see more of Warriorclan because it's hilarious
I'm surprised she didn't talk about Shadowsight's lost connection, after all his trauma it's kinda sad
I definitely don't think it's fair that they killed off a lot of the Dark Forest cats who helped out with taking Ashfur down. They should've given them a second chance, especially Snowtuft and Juniperclaw.
I sincerely feel sad about Redwillow. Ivypool is def going to StarClan but Redwillow was completely brainwashed by the DF as a 'paw and no he's gone forever. Sad.
Honestly, I've been reading Warrior cats since I was like 10 years old. I'm 21 now, and Firestar's reappearance still filled me with childlike joy. I love that guy.
Okay but how does no one talk about Ivypool and Bristlefrosts relationship?! Like I know we skipped a lot of Bristles kithood and her apprenticeship was quick, but theres still a motherly bond there. And imagine how Ivypool must feel at the end of ALITM?? Her own kit experienced the hell of a dark forest she fought and failed to put away. The devastation of a mother losing her kit is also shadowed by the grief of feeling like she should have done better to stop the dark forest or to prevent her kit from facing the dangers she faced. I imagine Shadowsight must feel some grief as well, Bristlefrost was his cousin afterall and he would have known this. Rootspring was perhaps the most painful for me as well, how must it feel to know the one you love does not even wait for you in death? That no where he looks will he find her? How awful for all of those who loved Bristle. The writers made us feel this one for sure, I hope that if anything they make a memorial for Bristle like they did the cats who died in the last hope, it would ease some of the grief.
I feel like an easy solution to the juniperclaw thing would be if StarClan offered him to stay with them but he, himself, refused, and instead wanted to atone for his actions before he felt comfortable truly joining them. Then he offers to guard the barrier and maybe StarClan/dark forest barrier guard becomes a full time thing that morally grey but atoning cats chose to take up as a mantle.
The lack of redemption in WCs is seriously awful to me. Cats like Darkstripe and other lackeys are seen AS bad as Tigerstar and Brokenstar, when a huge part of the Code is that you need to be loyal to your leader. It is a protagonist POV based moral judgement who gets to be in Heaven and who does not. This is why many fan rewrites have excised the dark forest entirely.
Not gonna lie, seeing Firestar off Darkstripe was kinda cathartic
With Darkstripe, I understand him going to the Dark Forest. He tried to kill a kit!! And idk but he didn't seem remorseful(I may be wrong but I haven't read any of the recent books if they state otherwise) I also think it also deals with his mentality being similar to Tigerstars.
Thats all byebye
That’s the point though, this code was changed at the end of the arc because this was a bad code to have. Besides, I kinda disagree. Warriors hands out redemptions blindly to cats like Clear Sky who don’t deserve it, and Darkstripe made the willing decision to follow Tigerstar. He betrayed his leader Bluestar to follow Tigerclaw and ruined his chance at redemption. He doesn’t need to be the worst cat in the world to be a bad one.
I agree with cats like Juniperclaw. I LOVE Juniperclaw. I don’t know why he wasn’t redeemed. Makes me mad. I guess what i’m trying to say is they give redemption to the wrong cats.
Blackstar is probably the only good example of redemption in wc.
@@spiltkool-aid I think Hollyleaf's redemption was well done too.
I'd say Clear Sky's redemption was good if they hadn't ruined it in Mothflight's Vision by turning him back into the paranoid hypocrite he used to be.
I’ve already seen people say they want bristlefrost to appear again, as a reincarnation or in a higher afterlife. They just want her to be SOMEWHERE. and I disagree with that because it would take away the impact of her permadeath. Bristle’s death is so impactful because she’s just gone forever.
Also where the hell was hollyleaf in this book?
Holly's just on vacation don't worry
Hiding under a bush in StarClan from embarrassment, since she convinced Squilf that Ashfur wasn’t a threat in Squirrelflight’s Hope
@@Weirdanimalboy Haven't read that book, did she actually do that? That's really funny.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Yeah she like calmed Squirrelflight down when they ran into Ashfur in Starclan and was even friendly to him, convincing Squilf he had changed. I think he even winked at Hollyleaf or something
Also it's like if bristlefrost went to some other afterlife...then that would've meant Ashfur survived too, and would ruin the entire thing
I was expecting cats like Silverhawk to be able to see their mates or loved ones in starclan once more and get a redemption that way. That's what I was excited for. Silverhawk even MENTIONS his mate to firestar and its focused on and so I was like "ohhh does this mean he might get to see her again?"
it would have been SO narratively interesting for that to happen. like these dark forest cats being able to see their friends and family one more time before being unable to stay. I also was somewhat expecting something to happen with Maggottail becoming some sort of pseudo-leader of the dark forest and making it somewhat "better" in that he'd have a bunch of cats he'd hang out with and be slightly less miserable but (shrugs) good book overall. fucking devastating having to read rootsprings grief pov but very good and impactful
Yeah, I was super disappointed that the ending was "STARCLAN says we should change the warrior code :)" when it should have been "StarClan made this mistake, we are the living cats, and we will force them to listen to us and change the rules we live by."
OH i remembered the other part of what i wanted to say here. They do still have 3 moons to discuss changes to the warrior code with their Clans, im theorizing/hoping that the other clan cats might be like "actually we want to completely overhaul the warrior code" (spotfur didnt really get to say any of her opinions, for example) and starclan reacts negatively, thus a starless clan
Rootspring becoming Lionblaze 2 was a very entertaining thought.
I'm glad they were willing to kill an actual main character, but like Moon said, I wish they allowed some of the cats who deserve to be in Starclan, actually go to Starclan.
I feel like this was 'pretty good for a Warriors book' which is good enough if you're still reading the series. I know my main gripe isn't with the ending but how we got there. The website even teased a lot of articles about 'Can there be REDEMPTION for these cats??' only for the book to slam the door in their noses and that's really messed up! If a writer (or writing team) sets up resonant thematic arcs then they need to put in the work to make the subversion of those themes believable, instead of horrifying and inexplicable.
FIrestar's appearance is fine with the Rule of Cool because that chapter was fun and ultimately didn't make or break the story. He (and Graystripe) also inject some much needed levity into a story that runs between stressful and screamingly depressing that would otherwise have no relief in tone whatsoever.
And Bristlefrost's family's experience at the end of this is just going to haunt me forever. Ugh. Here we go, waiting for the next one I guess...
as someone who hasnt read the books since dovewing became a warrior "notorious murderer lionblaze" is an interesting phrase to hear haha
For context, he's killed Russetfur and Harestar, he tried to killed Bramble/Ashfur and he wanted to execute Shadowsight. The dude has somehow become more dangerous than back when he was a bloodthirsty apprentice with uncontrollable powers.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 yikes dude. Lionblaze wtf. learn empathy???
@@TealVT his soul has been lost to me wanting MY soul back.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Eh, Russetfur was trying to kill Firestar, and Lionblaze didn't even really try to fight her, she just kinda died once he touched her because she was so old
I may not have been able to read most of the books, but I can tell a lot of people were either sad or frustrated with ALITM
Killing off characters we love can hit a wrong note in the fandom. I wonder what will happen in the new arc....All [Well, most] of our favourite old [as in from the frist arc] characters are gone...What will A Starless Clan bring to the table?
@Question the Satirist Yeah, however he did die in a honorable way, plus at least the trio is reunited
I nearly cried when our last close character ; greystripe, died.
In the novella Ravenpaws path when he died he refused to got to Starclan so that he could wait for Barley
@@JustAGrook i think he can at least visit starclan he just chose not to stay permanently, plus an author (i think kate) confirmed that tallstar occasionally leaves starclan to see jake so i dont think staying is super enforced
hey, at least we still have thornclaw
I loved seeing Firestar come back at the end of this arc! And I understand why they killed off Bristlefrost, but her being gone forever was really emotional for me. Most cats who lose someone they love in life will get to see them again, and they have the comfort and reassurance that their spirit will be watching over them. But Rootspring and Bristlefrost's parents and siblings will never have that. It was kind of devastating to read.
It is quite interesting that Moonkitti was reasonably happy with the outcome of this book, while Akria had felt the opposite. It shows that different opinions are valid and not something to complain about.
The foreshadowing for Bristlefrost's death A Light in the Mist is REALLY good. I thought she was going to die via that water because she was so scared of it. She even brushed with death when she knocked over that tree. Redwillow's death counts as well.
"This is exactly whatever is wrong with Lionblaze I hope he inherited it from Firestar" guys what if Firestar got it from Jake
Because then that would've gone to Scourge
*what if Jake is the murder man*
no but the biggest kick in the teeth to ME is when shadowsight is told he can just never talk to starclan ever. and his connection to the place of no stars is gone too!! he gets nothing after being the punching bag of this entire arc and it makes me so sad. just let the boy connect with starclan and be the medcat he's always wanted to be oh my God
That rant about the Dark Forest/Starclan and the code changes is exactly what I was thinking.
Edit: I'm also upset they didn't even mention Medicine Cats not being able to have mates. Like Rootspring was like "No Warrior can fight love." And several Medicine Cats including Leafpool were literally right next to him and none of them even mentioned how Medicine Cats have been "fighting love" for generations. That scene genuinely mad me mad.
The Power of Three prophecy was _kicked off_ by a medicine cat falling in love with a warrior and they don't think that rule should be changed???
@@graphitetailgrace3870 exactly
I think the rule should be changed to:
Medicine Cats can't have mates or kits until they've trained up an apprentice that can cover for them.
@@marynoble2258 perhaps they could give up their connection with StarClan?
@@foxygrin why tho?? Only possible reason Medicine Cats can't have kits is because they can't be in the nursery and they may need someone to assist them during pregnancy, so I think Mary Noble's rule is great
I got child enjoyment from seeing Firestar…as an adult XD
The whole idea of the dark forest cats not being allowed to redeem themselves can be fixed if it turns out that that's just a lie perpetuated by starclan because they're afraid that by letting a dark forest cat into starclan, they'll turn out to be just like ashfur. starclan's mistake wasn't that they didn't let a cat into starclan when they deserved it, but that they let a cat into starclan when they / didn't/ deserve it, so i think it's safe to assume that starclan would be very paranoid about letting bad cats into starclan after this arc, and dark forest cats were sent to the dark forest because they're bad, so starclan's paranoia would prevent dark forest cats from going to starclan even if they redeem themselves. this isn't me defending starclan btw it's just me trying to make sense of why that rule is in place. i honestly hope that starclan becomes more strict about who is allowed into starclan and that more cats end up in the dark forest who don't deserve it because of starclan's paranoia. it would set up a good conflict between the clans and starclan and when the living cats are all like "what the fuck is wrong with you starclan? why are you sending so many cats to hell?" it could lead to some much needed reformation and then the dark forest cats /could/ be redeemed once starclan fixes their shit. do i think this is what's going to happen in the next arc? no. do i trust the writers to handle this topic in a satisfying way? also no! so yeah unfortunately no matter how hard i try to make sense of starclan it's just. probably going to be poorly written forever... one can dream, though
I love how this book felt like it had genuine impact on the series. An impact I haven’t felt since Last Hope. We have one cat get their entire connection to StarClan cut off. A protagonist died. Graystripe is dead. Redwillow, Darktail, Darkstripe, and Snowtuft are dead. Mistystar did something for once. We got a Firestar POV (and yes, I did get super happy when we saw his POV and I was happy to see that childhood desire of Firestar murdering Darkstripe). We got some cool lore with Silverhawk too.
That being said… there are a few things I don’t like. The redemption feels like it was planned and then Harper Collins went “whoa whoa whoa! You can’t do that!” The code was not changed all that much and I hated it. Hopefully they left it open ended on purpose in order to change it more in the next series.
Yeah, one thing I was really happy about was seeing Graystripe reuniting with his family in Starclan ☺️ But one thing that made me a bit uncomfortable was when they added that small part about Silverstream glaring at Millie and Briarlight. I mean she was never jealous before and was even accepting of Graystipe and Millie’s relationship. Did the Erins add that in to go with their insane headcannon that Graystipe chooses Silverstream despite only being with her a few months at the most instead of Millie, his current mate and the mother of his children and he has been with for MANY years. I really hope the Erins rectconn that like they did with Redtail being Sandstorm’s father, if they want to start making any sense these days. But I loved the rest of the story with me crying out in sadness for Bristlefrost, and me crying out in joy for Ashfur’s death.
On the topic of redemption/rehabilitation: I'm kinda wondering if we're going to get a Dark Forest cat redemption via reincarnation angle. They make a note of Silverhawk's mate Emberdawn being in neither StarClan or the Dark Forest. Another Emberdawn, from a time period Silverhawk could not have existed in, appeared in Leopardstar's Honor and later went to StarClan. Frecklewish, according to the recently updated family tree, wound up in the DF (let's ignore the reasoning behind that) and the SkyClan medicine cat is also named Frecklewish. Also was born a house cat, but you could wave that away as StarClan's will or whatever. Beetlewhisker was a cat that was killed in the DF, thus stuck there forever, but has not been mentioned since... and there is currently a Beetlekit in SkyClan.
I'm probably overthinking, but I could also see them going with it. Their redemption would be a do-over: if their spirit is born in totally different circumstances, do they still commit to heinous actions? Still doesn't fix the issues with StarClan, or the Code, or anything else but perhaps the new arc could surprise us. There are some obvious downsides: perma-deaths like Bristlefrost's would feel less impactful, and we could see the return of Spottedleaf, Tigerstar, and the like. But I'm probably wrong anyway and just making connections where there aren't any. Still kinda strange to have two totally unrelated Emberdawns revealed in books released only a couple months apart, but I digress.
I love that
i know this is random but did anyone else crack a smile when Needletail said, “any kit of Violetshine’s must be as tough as old bark.”
Starclans foolish decision to let ashfur in caused many deaths and suffering.
They just live on unpunished.
Also starclan: doesn’t give dark forest cats a second chance, bc it’s „pointless“
I would have liked a way for truly regretting dark forest cats to repent themselves and getting a 2. chance.
The starclancats seemed very arrogant about it.
Yeah, tbh I wanna see starclan be overthrown because it’s just ridiculous
Maybe a Starless Clan will challenge them
I was actually happy to learn that every Clan is taking the Bluestar route and turning on StarClan. Unless Ashfur managed to get even more OP in the Dark Forest so he could reach the living world anyway, none of The Broken Code would have happened if Yellowfang didn't let Ashfur into StarClan. Willowshine, Rosepetal, Daisy's kits, Strikestone, Berrynose, they would all have remained alive. StarClan wouldn't have almost been destroyed and perfectly good cats wouldn't have become Dark Forest slaves.
Amazing how one decision can completely destroy your respect for a character in hindsight.
Snowtuft’s inferno moment
This is one of the only Warrior's books that got a emotional reaction from me.
Bristlefrost's death is going to spark so many amv's, pmv's, and MAP's.
I'm really looking forward to some big MAPs on the entire arc, especially A Light in the Mist! TBC has been insane
Great video! I get why people are annoyed that the code didn’t change that much, but they have an entire next arc to do that so in my opinion changing it massively at the end of ALITM would’ve felt rushed. And I also like that Squilf wasn’t in the final battle because she’s taking power back from Ashfur by ignoring him. The Bramblestar worship in this book felt really ham-fisted though, it was strange
The Bramble thing feels like a combination of 'authors view character differently than they actually wrote him to be' and a bunch of 'show don't tell' violations. It finally got through their heads somewhere along the line that even though they think he's a good person, the way they wrote him and the subsequent way everyone reads him are NOT the same, so rather than altering how they write him to align more with either side and amend the issue, they decide to take the lazy way out and just tell the reader over and over again that he's a good person, regardless of what his actions actually are, and instead of showing us through his actions that he's a good person. I remember there was another Moonkitti bit touching on that somewhere, using a character called 'Pikestar' in the illustrations, but I can't remember which video it was in. If I find it later, I'll come back and put the link
Have you ever seen Megamind? If you like Ashfur for being a realistic creep, I think it'd be right up your ally. Just take Ash's part in this arc and put it into a Dreamworks move. Not the crappy Dreamworks where they're trying too hard appeal to who the hell even knows (Monsters Vs Aliens, Boss Baby), the good Dreamworks with complex characters, witty dialogue, and engaging stories (Shrek, How To Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda). The tagline is "What if the villain won?" but the real question is "What if a creeper was given Superman's powers?" Fun, right?
I’ve been waiting for the Moonkitti video on this book since I finished reading it on Monday I think. I seriously had to hold back tears when I was reading Rootspring’s chapters after Bristlefrost died. It just hit me really hard that he just kinda- gave up? That’s not the right word, but that’s the kinda vibe I got from him. And when he kept trying to find her spirit it hit hard. ESPECIALLY WHEN IVY AND FERN WENT TO HIM AND WERE LIKE LET US SEE OUR DEAD DAUGHTER PLEASE AND THEN NOT BEING ABLE TOO WAS AAAAA
And then he did see her and their 3 three kits but it was all just a fantasy of what could and should have been : ) I've always liked BristlexRoot but man, they might be one of my favorite couples now.
I joined the fandom around two years ago. I’ve met many friends and grown as a person! I’m glad that I have these memories and I can’t wait for the next era of books.
Convinced that the Erins saw Moonkitti's "I want warriors to change permanently" video and that was the entire reason the code was edited
wildest take ever but it makes sense in my head: starclan has terf energy
Why are you so right 💀
@@lavender_aa3184 novella bluestar had ally energy but starclan bluestar is definitely a terf
From what I remember, cats in the dark forest can't feel hunger like at all, so they don't care that there's no prey. So apart from the few new little bits that were added, Dark forest cats have been dealing with the same cold, damp, foggy, and hungerless "life" with just the cute new editions of the poison blood river of death and the amazing "Wait, fuck, what year is it?" syndrome!
I'm almost sure they described infinite hunger in there in earlier books
God. I was SO hoping that Mistystar would die. I was SO excited to see her END. But I do agree that Bristlefrost was probably the better choice. In the moment I was sort of hoping that Mistystar, as the RiverClan representative, would jump in and save Bristlefrost. How amazing would it be to have Mistystar disappear FOREVER AND EVER, especially with how much her character has been butchered in this arc. (She literally criticizes half-clan relationships/cats multiple times while being one herself and NO ONE calls her out on it!) Mistystar was already almost a senior warrior when Graystripe was BORN, she's ancient! Let her rest Erins!
As someone who initially was very upset that Squirrelflight was shut down for wanting to go on the mission to the dark forest to defeat Ashfur, your point had me fully reconsider this and seen it in a different light. Squirrelflight is my favorite character of the series and I 100% want to see her succeed, I love seeing her with agency and getting the spotlight she deserves. But you are very right, it is super important to bear in mind the implications of her and Ashfur's relationship. It isn't just some sort of rivalry where she is destined to defeat him, Ashfur IS an abusive cat and this whole series was him being controlling and abusive to her. Squilf agreeing not to go can be seen as just as impactful, she is recognizing that she doesn't owe Ashfur anything, she's fought her fight and doing anything more will put her in more danger, and that is a super important message for anyone in the process of leaving an abusive relationship. Even with just leaving any relationship; knowing that you no longer owe this person anything, you might not get the last words in the last conversation, and they may never truly understand your perspective, and allowing all of that to stay in the past so you can move on is a super important message.
"It's breaking up with Ashfur via text" had me laughing because it is very true. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for your humor :)
i was crying and sobbing uncontrollably for the rest of the book and a couple hours after when bristlefrost died. i don't even know why, maybe bristlefrost's death already hurt, then the later chapters keep throwing punches with rootspring's grief and shadowsight's survivor's guilt.
i really like how bristlefrost's death was written, though. i love how rootspring could pick up on her last thoughts when he looked for her, and i think it's a testament to her spirit that she was able to feel warmth and love in the literal Despair Water That Sucks Out Your Soul.
ik some people have theories that faded cats might get reincarnated, and i hope it would happen, but even if it does, you could never really tell, they're never GOING to actually be bristlefrost again, at least from how i interpret things.
The real reason bris died was so she didn't have to eat Wendy's unsalted fries
Akira;: makes a video about how bad this book was
Moonkitti: makes a video but turns every single bad thing Akira said into something good
And that my friends is why taste comes into play
Shadowsight not being able to speak with StarClan anymore feels so sad to me. Its an interesting idea- he can only see into shadows and all. But it feels like one more burning punishment for falling victim to Ashfur's manipulation.
i feel like this arc has really cemented my negative perspective on starclan. the fact that they just relegated the "helpful" dark forest cats to linger on in hell in the end really rubs me the wrong way. we know that the dark forest cats can grow and change, and even regret the actions that landed them there in the first place- heck, kate cary herself commented on this when it came to snowtuft, who at least got... relief for his tortured soul. instead we get this ending, where the df cats go back to jail and juniperclaw gets to be... a cop? a warden? it's the closest that they can ever aspire to compared to being part of the in-group of thriving starclan cats.
starclan "needs" the dark forest, and vice versa, according to starclan and... we have no reason to believe this! aside from our assumption that starclan is Good and the dark forest is Bad. For what it's worth, we've seen semi-innocent cats end up in the dark forest (antpelt), who's to say there aren't a few good cats in there? not all of them are tigerstars or hawkfrosts. yet starclan insists that their system is correct. the books want us to think that this is correct. because in their view, there can't be a top 1% of warrior cats unless *someone* gets screwed over.
i legitimately believe that many of starclan's actions throughout the series are done out of self-preservation: targeting cats that could be a threat to starclan's power before they get a chance to. sol was a potential threat, so they pressured leafstar into her reluctance toward training him. they set him up to fail. then when he was pressured to prove himself, he was set on the track that would get him exiled. mudclaw? bam, lightning, tree. even the power of three prophecy was met with extreme reluctance by starclan: not knowing where the three's powers came from was a source of stress for them. they only became cooperative when it became clear that the Three were the only tool they could use to win the great battle. who's to say they didn't see ashfur as a threat in the first place, and that's why they insisted on making brambleclaw deputy? what about the idea of an ashstar reviled starclan so much, before he turned into the ashfur we know today? in the recent books, there is a line where they mention ashfur as having "the power of the stars in his paws." i chalk this up to the authors not realizing the importance of that phrase and just throwing it around for shock value, but who's to say ashfur's *spooooky* powers dont come from the same source as the Three? it's possible they saw him as a threat long before, and set him up to shatter the way he did leading up to the fire scene, and ultimately the broken code. in my mind, starclan is a sort of mafia that gets rid of its targets and plays it off as "good" for the clans, when in reality, they're just scared they might be overshadowed or forgotten. the fact that they just shut up cats they dont like via prophecy, dark forest imprisonment, or Sudden Death is just proof of that.
basically, sol was right
Absolutely live for this theory, even though there are some cats in StarClan I adore and would never call evil enough to scheme like this. Like Firestar, and... yeah, Firestar.
Yeah that power of the stars line made me raise an eyebrow.
i need a warriors au or a whole fucking ripoff series where starclan works out of self preservation and a fear of being abandoned by the clans im DESPERATE
Excuse me I'll have you know that at 22 I did infact go "Oooo Firestar!" lmfao. I also laughed my ass off when he immediately just murked Darkstripe like "by bitch"
This is a late comment, but I absolutely love the way they killed off Bristlefrost. Like, compared to the way the important poeple are killed off, they killed Bristlefrost in the way that she LITERALLY ceases to exist. It's kind of fascinating. She didn't die in a duel, she didn't die of age or sickness, she didn't even have to redeem herself. She sacrificed her literal existence. She literally just ceased to exist. Soul and body. What a way to kill a protagonist. It shocked me quite a bit when I read it.
Edit: I also love the satisfaction of Ashfur's death. Something about him not existing is extremely satisfying.
The cat I feel worst for here isn't rootspring. Its Ivypool. The dark forest has taken so much from her. Ending with *permanently* taking her daughter.
Ashfur controls the ghosts by puppeting them around with his hair
A TreexVioletshine map is totally something I would do, don’t tempt me.
"this is exactly whatever is wrong with Lionblaze, I hope he inherited it from Firestar" that killed me
StarClan is just too full of themselves. They knew that they made mistakes, but are refusing to fix them. They let cats like Mudclaw and Clear Sky and Ashfur into the Dark Forest, while Juniperclaw, Snowtuft, and various other cats that didn't really do anything wrong/redeemed themselves are denied entrance. Also, Needletail, who spend her entire life trying to destroy her clan and only decided against it last minute is allowed on in. While cats who have tryed.ovdr and over to be a better person--er cat are just shoved aside. It's sickening. Moon stated that the Dark Forest is a horrible, horrible, just awful place. It's depressing to read about, and it makes me feel sorry for those cats who did only one thing wrong to be suffering forever while actual, literal murders are prancing around in StarClan. It makes sense why cats like Snowtuft tried to turn themselves into a better cat. And if he hadn't died, he should've been allowed access to StarClan. He was a good guy. But that didn't happen. Because StarClan refuses to fix their mistakes. They're too prideful. It's just sickening. Why does everyone put all their faith in StarClan? Why does everyone look up to StarClan?
Sol was 100% correct.
It's not 'Starclan' whose two prideful, who refuse to fix their mistakes, it's the Erins. They're a bunch of old-fashioned old hags who believe that if you're bad ONCE, you can never become a better person, which is a sickening and toxic take. Someone needs to rip the writing privileges away from them, they CLEARLY don't know how to write a compelling story without garbage takes.
I'm not all that dissapointed with the small changes to the Warrior Code. I think starting out small and taking another few books to explore what these changes would look like in canon is a good idea, especially considering we're starting a new arc. In terms of most cats resisting the change, I feel that this is because the Warrior Code is very much the scripture of the Clans. It is heavily tied to their religion, and this is something that has been highly consistent throughout the entire series. The Warrior Code is designed to inspire stubborness and resistance to change in order to keep itself alive, which is very similar to how many real world religions work. I hope that A Starless Clan will incorporate these ideas into its plot, which based on River's blurb, is likely but not 100% confirmed yet.
Additionally, I may be 18 but I was still that 12 year old kid excited to see Firestar in this book. Having recently reread The Prophecies Begin, he has become one of ny favourite characters and I have no shame in saying that lol.
Firestar after leaving Rootspring’s body and giving him bloodlust: man I sure love murder
Moonkitti: no adults were excited about Firestar showing up
Me, a 21 year old adult who was excited to see Firestar: 👁👄👁
It feels so refreshing to have all that's messed up with starclan and the dark forest put into words. It's just weirdly unfair and arbitrary. Lazy writing probably? But they know their target audience is kids, so why? A 12 yo will walk away from these books thinking starclan are the "good" guys so everything they do is "good". Not think about it critically. And it will be easy to project themselves in that position and that's it's own can of worms.
I think you're underestimating 12 year olds. When I saw the Juniperclaw scene where he got sent to guard to hell, I threw the book to the ground angrily and everyone looked at me weird. And I am 11.
I feel like the whole arc had a problem with spending too much time running no-where but I thought a lot of the ideas were really interesting.
I agree, most of it was the character talking in circles about the same topic over and over again XD Just come to an agreement guys, come on~!
ALSO. ashfur has almost THE same character arc as gideon from gravity falls and it’s WEIRD. he starts out as a minor threat, and a lot of his character is just. infatuated and obsessed with this girl. and is just trying to Obtain Her even when she is clearly not interested. he does some pretty messed up things and it always involves Getting This Girl that doesn’t want him. these actions result in the character becoming somehow incapacitated (jail/dead) and during this time he just dwells and get worse. somehow the character obtains dangerous and supernatural abilities and very nearly destroys the entire world hoping that in the end they will Have This Prize. only for another character to (at least try to) talk them back to reality and get through to them that there is no way that they will get the girl now. one of these characters realizes this and makes a change for the better. ashfur was not that one.
vouch
Aside from being hit by nostalgia from seeing Gravity Falls, this is honestly a really good analysis of the similarities between Gideon and Ashfur and their overall arc in each of their respective series. Hm, now I wonder if there are any lines by Gideon that can fit Ashfur too.
"The entire Pines (Firestar) family have invoked my fury! You will all pay recompense for your transgressions!" - Ashfur after Squirrelflight rejects him, and he plans with Hawkfrost to kill Firestar.
"This isn't over. This isn't the last you'll see of li'l.... ol'.... me...." - Ashfur after he dies, and plots his revival in StarClan.
"Finally after all these years, after every humiliation! Your business, your family, everything will finally be mine! You have no one to protect you now!" Ashfur after stealing Bramblestar's body.
"Dipper Pines (Shadowsight), you don't know what you've done! You've just made the biggest mistake of your life!" - Ashfur manipulating Shadowsight.
"Face it, kid, you're nothing without that journal. No muscles. No brains. What are you gonna do kid, huh? What are you gonna do?" Ashfur to either Shadowsight or Rootspring.
headcanon voice
I think that for some of the dark forest cats, the ONE thing keeping them going was the prospect of invading the living world of starclan, then possessing people to escape. The ONE thing worth pursuing: a way out; an escape from this suffering that the less evil or more nuancedly bad ones (Juniperclaw/Redwillow) knew they didn't deserve or warrant in life.
Theory: bris's spirit was saved last moment, and shoved into frostpaw. So bris inside her mind, (kind of like cinderheart) tells her things she could never know, and she tells that to others, leading them go believe that she has a special connection to starclan, hence the ederweiss blurb. So, when mothwing and/or Mistystar dies, and let's face it mothwing will die this arc, frostpaw will be expected to be trained by ghosts. But she can't actually speak to them, that's just bris. So epic quest or smth, bris and frostpaw fight yada yada yada, finchpaw is evil or smth flamepaw pulls a fireheart sunbeam pulls a lionblaze with boring chapters arc done.
Supporting evidence:
Bris and frosp have similar names, each with frost in them, symbolism
Bris and frosp have same pelt and eye colors, symbolism
Entirety of ederweiss blurb or however you spell it
And yes I have supporting evidence of finchpaw is evil! No I don't Kate Cary said not to trust her but she has no power over the books. But I think it would be interesting for a direct ancestor to Firestar and who looks a lot like him to be evil, and for her sibling, who does not look like Firestar, flamepaw, defeat him. I also said pulls a fireheart in the since he would become leader. That means squilf retires/dies and bramble would die but I don't think anybody cares about him. I don't think the Erin's have the guts to do any of this, but it would be cool! No idea bout sunbeam tho I think her chapters might be boring
If, somehow, Bristlefrost’s spirit managed to escape, how would they write/explain it? I like this theory though.
@@quietsong2583 same way the explained the three's powers, they don't. Probably saved by the same higher power that gave the three their powers though, tbh
@@juniper5604 The writers do be like that
Haven't read a lick of these books, but I had a theory: if there is a normal access point from starclan to the dark forest, that implies that cats should be able to cross over. However, Dark Forest cats can't do this, for reasons you do not explain, making me think it's left vague. And Ashfur has figured out a way to lock down that normal path and the moon pool through negative emotions. What if _that_ is the mechanism separating Dark Forest and StarClan? Star Clan cats can walk in and out as they please, but when Dark Forest cats try, being so full of negative emotions, the path locks up to them. This would also mean redemption could be possible; if a Dark Forest cat truly lets go of their negative emotions and atones, maybe the path won't close up when they approach?
Big agree with pretty much everything. I'm also sad that snowtuft was never like explained? He just says he forgot what he did in life to put him there which makes me. think he's there by mistake And I hope that he gets a novella. But I like this book I thought the last two were okay boring but okay I enjoyed this one a lot more. I hope the next arc they do change the code more for this called starless clan. I dislike starclan more than ever moth wing was right
Oh and I loved ashfurs POV more please
Brand new podcast when tho /hj
Long comment with everything one at a time woo
About the forest reflecting Ashfur's thoughts, it would have been nice for them to show that more clearly, maybe have the trees and forest distorting when he's upset or just....anything more than just a slow fading away.
Briss dying is really cool because Rootspring is HORRIFIED by the idea of potentially killing someone/what firestar did in his body, while she is ready to commit a kill on ashfur.
Starclan just. sucks. I'm holding onto a little bit of hope that the main characters pick fights with them in the next arc, but as for THIS SPECIFIC arc, its absolute nonsense how they treated the dark forest cats.
Ashfur: gets sad
Reality: *begins to break apart*
Shattered Sky was the last book in a vision of shadows, actually.
That three book series was kind of refreshing though, amiright?
Anyways, I’m waiting for all the Ashfur X Darktail ship art to come across my feed, if nobody contributes I might have to step in.
this makes me feel better knowing i’m not the only one that stopped reading the series at shattered sky
@@bubbaberriboo I didn’t stop reading after shattered sky but I like to believe that shattered sky was the true final book in a vision of shadows, there was nothing else the arc had to offer afterwards honestly lol, plus it had one of the best final battles imo
@@AD-ts6gq shattered sky was the last book i read because i was like… there is no way they can top this. not sure i’ll ever get to reading more since i forgot most of what happened lmao
Almost like these series should be 3 books long instead of 6 books long, or 2 series merged into one all along- or at the very least after Prophecies begin. It's much too stretched out.
@@foxygrin Even arc 1 had a clear 3 book split.