Does George R.R. Martin have a POV issue in Winds of Winter??
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2023
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Hey guys hope you all enjoyed this video. In this one we discuss if George R.R. Martin has a pov issue in winds of winter
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I wouldn’t say Daenerys was captured at all. She has a dragon and a khalasar at her back and is headed for Meereen.
From the visions in the house of the undying, she will return to Dosh Khaleen.
It's a rule that George gave to himself. I'm currently reading a novel that effortlessly switches between point of views through sub-chapters whenever needed. The author still did it with retstraint (not like every other senttence like with Dune) so it never became burdensome. However, George _named_ his chapters after the characters so it became overly rigid for such a complex story.
My guess is:
A) Dany is only now starting the arch GRRM had planned for her, as she is alone in the desert with her dragons.
B) Jon is (un)dead, thus he won't be a POV character, just like Cat was, but Lady Stoneheart isn't.
C) Jon Con will die.
I wish GRRM kept to his original plan of including a 5-10 year time skip after the conclusion of the war of the 5 Kings, most of the pivotal characters are too young, too new in their respective Power and the Dragons especially are too under developed, it would make for a much better story if FAegon had spent 5-10 years honing his skills as a military commander and tactician in the Disputed Lands, if Daenyeres had spent 5-10 years learning how to establish her rule and actually govern Mereen, if Sansa spent 5-10 years learning how to become a Machiavellianesque political player from Littlefinger as opposed to a pawn in others scheming and if Jon Snow had 5-10 years to establish himself as a fearsome Northern Warlord akin to the likes of Theon Stark while serving as Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.
But a lot can happen in 5-10 years. Is Stannis just going to chill at the Wall for 5 years and not attack the Bolton's? Or the other way around. Roose would eventually make his way to Winterfell and order Ramsey to root Stannis out of the Wall. If Ramsey does in the attempt, good for Roose. Now he doesn't have to worry about his shenanigans. But fake Arya would be without a husband, so that would be a dumb idea on Roose's part.
Anyway, there is just too much going on at the end of Storm that could be handwaved away. What about Euron? Would he be attacking the Reach for a solid 5 years with little to no opposition? Dany, Sansa and Arya work because they are isolated from the main plot, so they can take as much time as they need to hone their skills. That applies to Bran as well. He is beyond the Wall and is hiding out in a cave, so he could practice magic for 100 years for all I care. But there is just too much going on
Too many plot threads left hanging to be resolved. I think a 1 year time skip could've sufficed. Sansa, Arya, Bran and Dany would become accustomed to their new life.
They wouldn't be experts just yet, but still on the path to becoming who they are supposed to be. This is just my take on the whole time skip fiasco
@@elizabethmenjivar1695 a 5-10 year time skip would require Dance to be set up completely differently than what we got
@@TheUchihaProdigy Jon and Stannis could have spent years fighting Mance Rayder, he had an army of 100,000 Wildlings (I know not all were Fighting men) but this could have been the catalyst for a long campaign, wherein Mance divides his forces, wages a campaign against Stannis and the Watch, we could see defections from both sides, the possibilities are endless.
I don't know if Jon will continue to be a POV character going forward, no other ressurected character has been a POV, im guessing/hoping that Jon will be way different when/if ressurected, akin to the Stark (pun intended lol) difference between Ser Berric Dondarrian before and after his resurrection, im hoping for a colder, darker, more ruthless Jon Snow going forward
I would be suprised if he isnt a character anymore.
This is a rule of one though. Beric was never a POV and Stoneheart may be POVless to keep her mysterious. Still, it is a possibility and not necessarily a bad one
@@Isuream6331 nah. Beric wasnt even a pov before he got resurected and catlyn was essentially just a stand in pov for robb. grrm even regrets not giving robb a pov. I would be more than supprised that if jon is dead and he brought jon back that he isnt a pov. Having 10 mel chapters doesnt sound resonable.
@@lokidoki525 Yeah, I personally don’t want to lose Jon’s perspective and it wouldn’t really make sense for one of the MAIN main characters to not have a POV anymore. Something will certainly be different though
I see Arianne and the dorne plot being trimmed down as the story moves to aegon and I feel we won't see his inner thoughts as be grows up like rob being with Jon con's thoughts instead and his delusion on rhegar through aegon.
That's very informative. I love your videos, thank you.
Thank you for all of your support :)
0% chance Grrm is the one who finishes the books
7 books isn’t enough George! Go for 9! Or 13!
I ended up writing my own winds of winter for me and my friends
Tyrells need a POV. Weird they don't have one.
What do you mean they have a perfectly unbiased pov of them Cersei
I mean he's has this issue since rob was alive trying to give him some pov chapters but missing his chance at it.
Honestly a pov can make the difference making a story interesting to infer what the character we follow is truly thinking as rob looks brave but has his worries and lashes out sometimes early on. Even admitting he's afraid and crying when bran was told not to.
While filming GOT, in season 1, George comments to a director that everything, in the end, focuses on the union of Jon and Dany...Jon cannot stop being a point of view.
Ye
Good video- I do think Tyrion will continue to have many POVs since he's George's favorite
I would say the first fourth or even third of the book is going to be wrapping up cliffhangers from Dance With Dragons. He’s definitely going to need to trim some fat at the Battle of Mereen and Battle of Winterfell.
I think we’re going to be getting radio silence from the wall and beyond for a majority of the book.
I could see a later chapter being a Mel POV lamenting her visions, believing Stannis is gone, Jon’s assassination and the fallout from the mutiny, burning Shireen to resurrect Jon and him coming back as “something else”
I have a feeling Jaime and Brienne will be detrimental going forward. I think both of them are too valuable to the story to die early on.
Burning Shireen has consistently been stated to be a decision made by Stannis. George could have changed his mind, but it's something he's seemed set on for a while now.
I've always been muddled on this subject, but have never been able to put my thoughts into words, and am happy you decided to tackle it along with all the positives and negatives given Geroge having a wider range of POV's.
Keep up the discussions bro. Can't wait for another interesting topic to vex my brain about.
Hasha glad you enjoyed and I shall!
Okay Problem there: Mel-Chapter is not for the Wall.
We have Asha and Theon in Stannis's Camp and if Stannis is really the one who sentences his own Daughter to die by fire, how does he do this when his Daughter and Mel are still at Castle Black? GRRM always mentions Stannis as the final Decision-Maker when it comes to Shireen's burning, atm Shireen, Selyse and Mel are all far away from Stannis. We all think that Asha and Theon will stay in Stannis's Camp, but they won't and even IF they stay, they are hostages and prisoners, they are put aside in shackles and can't do anything. So ... Theon and Asha have King's Blood, they are the last Son and Daughter of Balon Greyjoy who was King of the Iron Islands. So maybe Stannis does burn Theon as a sacrifice first, which works? don't know why it should work, but it does and Asha flees and hides and witnesses the Death of Shireen, we need someone who can tell the Story of Stannis burning Shireen. Otherwise, it will be as if it never happens.
And Davos won't do it, he is far away on his Way to Skagos or at least on Skagos finding Rikkon. And that means he can't be our PoV at the Wall, because the Journey will take time, we all heard how difficult it is to sail through the Sea by Skagos in summer, I think they also mention that it is even more difficult now, in winter. So he can't be our PoV at the Wall for some time, which means when Mel travels with Selyse and Shireen to Shireen Burning, there is no PoV at the Wall.
So that leaves us with a few options: First Sansa travels North and becomes the PoV at the Wall, Second we don't have a PoV until Davos arrives with Rikkon and even then, Osha is a Wildling Woman, I doubt after Wun Wun's Attack that Wildlings allowed in Castle Black. so they will probably end up at one of the Places where the Wildlings settled.
So the only way to have a PoV at the Wall during the Weeks when neither Melissandre nor Davos is there, you can only use Jon or Bran, Bran could look through the Eyes of the Ravens, but I doubt that Bloodraven will let him work freely, I mean he is still in Training. So that is unlikely only not impossible.
Which is the Reason I think Jon stays a PoV.
I'm also hoping for Stannis Baratheon to become a POV character going forward, my prediction for Stannis is thst he will win a Pyrric victory at the Battle of Ice, defeating the Frey/Bolton army but will sustain casualties so heavy that his power will be completely spent, he will then retreat back to the Wall where he will find out that Sylese has burned Shereen as s sacrifice to R'Hollor, this will cause Stannis to fly into a murderous and griefstricken rage where he kills Syleese, names Edric Storm Edric Baratheon and Lord of Stormsend, before taking the Black and being elected the 999th Lord Commander
I thought George said he isn't writing any new POV's? However, I do agree that someone in Stannis's camp needs a POV. But not Stannis. Perhaps Justin Massey when he's escorting fake Arya to the Wall. Will he continue his mission to find new sellswords when he finds out Shireen is burned and he sees the pink letter informing the Nights Watch of Stannis's untimely death? Or will he see that the Wall is too chaotic and dangerous so decides to take fake Arya with him to Braavos to keep her safe while the Wall is in chaos. The only person at the Wall that could protect fake Arya was Jon Snow, but now he's dead. But it all depends on WHEN Justin Massey arrives. He could arrive right when Shireen is being burned or he can arrive when Jon is already resurrected. Justin Massey is perhaps the most overlooked character in the narrative, so it could be beneficial to the story if he gets his own POV in Winds.
idk dude didn’t grrm say stannis is gonna burn shireen?
@@pottboy3544yes I'm sure he did.
I do like where their coming from. I won't happen but I like it
Selyse will never burn Shireen. She is the one and only heir and connection to her husband's power. On top of that, men like Stannis are not capable of seeing their own mistakes, they always will blame others for their failures, so I do not see him taking the black. He will rather take a new wife.
It’s Aeron Damp-Hair, 2 words
thank you for the correction!
TLDR: momentum is key
I personally think that there was a period of time where George literally stopped all writing of Winds. Once you detach yourself from a big project, it’s hard to jump back into it. You no longer have that same all encompassing energy where you have a grip on each little detail of your story.
If he could do it all over again I think George would have set himself a goal of at least writing a sentence each day. He is probably at the stage where he no longer has a grip on the story and has to do a DREADED REREAD of his own material, which no doubt would have made George want to change many of his plans.
and he lost that window of opportunity when everyone was hyped for the book. I don't see much engagement anymore. He should have divided the book into 2 (or 3) short ones and just release something years ago instead of trying to keep the hypetrain going for year and years of waiting.
Didn't he say recently he really regrets killing off one of characters in Dance now. I think its Kevan Lannister. He's got no one in kings Landing now to see whats actually going on with crown and the Lannisters, Tyrell, Tommen etc. Cersei won't be there for any of it as shes disgraced.
It won't be the shaved pate who would betray barristan or dany , he has the most to lose. If the masters win back the city, the pates and brazen beasts will be the first to die horribly.
Dany won't be captured. Drogon is with her. The khalassar will bow to her. Jon's spirit is inside Ghost, so we may get a Ghost/ Jon POV.
I'm sorry, I don't want to be THAT guy, but it's "Damp-Hair". His hair is wet, damp.
thank you for the correction.
@@TheGreaseGoblins in all fairness to you it is a super common mistake 😁
Hmm, John worging into his wolf and then being resurrected back to his body sounds awfully familiar. Almost like the EXACT same thing happens to Fitz and Nighteyes in Robin Hobb's Fitz trilogy. And Robin Hobb and George are very good friends. It's not going to happen. I think he will be resurrected but not from Ghost.
Why do you pronounce Damphair as damfir when it's clearly meant to be Damp Hair?
Yup fixed that but yes mistake by me
2 mins in and I strongly disagree.
Arya is a huge problem being that she has to get away from The Faceless Men… the most dangerous group of assassins in Planetos. She’s as good as dead- it’s not going to be like the show where Jaqen (who’s not even at house of black and white) thinks it’s cute that she left.
I don’t see how Arya makes it to the end of the series.
So I will say I have done videos in the past explaining how she gets out but I agree with u I think arya could die. My idea is that she is given a mission in westeros which allows her to go, but it is something she struggles with actually doing
It’ll be a complete cop out if Bran is no longer a POV. Just like the show.
Yes, there is a pov problem.
I hope Bran is a better character in the books after he becomes the 3ER, just not the weird version he became in the show.
I am convinced he is not even working on it. It’s pretty obvious tbh, he was an impoverished screenwriter and smalltime novelist his whole life. Now he has loads of money and fame all of a sudden in his twilight years. Life is precious and short. Do you really think he wants to spend precious time locked away writing a very long, very complex book? I don’t. In fact it would be pretty insane of him if he was writing it. He can’t say any of this of course, because he’ll get sued and people will hate him… but he is not writing, hasn’t been, and doesn’t plan to. The book ain’t coming. I see people optimistic - “He said he’s almost done!” “Reports are he wrote a lot this year!!” .. I too used to be that optimistic over similar updates. Know when that was? 7 years ago.
But I certainly hope I am wrong. And this vid does have some great points. I agree about Jon and Bran potentially not being POV anymore- especially Bran. Wouldn’t work with him knowing too much, as you said
the goblin who works at dairy queen's youtube channel (if you know, you know)
who dare speaketh of the ye olde DQ days?
I just hope that Martin doesn't let fans effect in anyway. Fans are irrelevant, only relevant thing is, that he writes the story he has had in his mind. All whining from so called fans is just meaningless noice on background. When any writer starts to try to please fans, story turns to utter rubbish.
George strikes me as a man who needs a good foot massage. Personally, I used to go to a Certified Massage Therapist (CMT) on a monthly basis to get my feet massaged, and I went to her for about 2 years until she decided to retire. I always loved getting my feet massaged. Feels really good on my feet and helps me relax and relieve stress. I also love it when she bent my toes back and forth, and at times, she’d ask me to press my toes on her hand which stretched my lower leg muscles and that also felt good. When I was little I had Occupational/Physical therapy 3 times a week in school and one thing the therapist always did was to bend my toes back and I had to do the same thing by pressing my toes on her hand.
Blowies are better