How Can The Winds of Winter fit into The Winds of Winter?
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2018
- The Winds of Winter: Targeted for a 1,500 manuscript page book - but is 1,500 enough? How can TWOW fit into such a book? Are there significant problems in making that a reality? Is it possible? What would it take? Find it all inside.
Special thanks to a few people:
Bookshelfstud for pointing out in a MaesterMonthly video about the "GRRM killed the parents" thing.
BryndenBFish for morale support and attempts at helping, also The Ultimate TWOW Resource: warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.w...
Maps used were from The Lands of Ice and Fire & A World of Ice and Fire App, which you can find more about and where to buy it on GRRM's Website: www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_bo...
TWOW Cover is Fan Art done by /u/FeroxDeoVacuusVinco about Six Years ago. Since then almost everyone (even GRRM) has used it as a placeholder cover. Major props to Ferox. / my_attempt_at_making_t...
/ admiralkird 
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Great video!
Senvideopai noticed me.
Alt Shift X All hail The Shift! His grace has blessed us with his presence! 🙂
Alt Shift X
I love this number crunching approach to GRRM's big problems with character and narrative.
Wow if Alt Shift X compliments you on the quality of your video, you know you've done something right. That's a big endorsement.
FWIW I sang ASX's praises before he was poopular, so on a personal level its a very thankful and wonderful endorsement - www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2udbqq/no_spoilers_good_fan_theorydiscussion_youtube/co7cxf2/
GRRM please we"re doing statistical projections now :(
Those have been around a lot longer than now
Gentle Adam Rebika. That's why he won't finish it OR he will and it'll be published posthumously!
I 100% busted out laughing at this shit. Like dropped my phone and just couldn't stop laughing. Thank you for that :)
same!@@zekerohan4669
Man, I laughed so hard on that one. The despair! :D
I asked George at a Feast signing back in 2005 how he was going to fit all his PoVs in book 6 and he jokingly said, "Well, I'm going to have to kill a lot of them."
Lol
Probably wasn’t joking😅
R/thingsthatdidnthappen
Beto
r/nothingeverhappens
AAAAAH ITS REALLY HAPPENING
It scared me when I realized this video came out 5 years ago
Yeah same. Like even back then it was shocking that GRRM still hadn't released the book but this video is literally now 5 years old 💀
Here I am 2 months after ur comment
The first book came out a month before I was born.
I'm 22 now, let that sink in.
21 here, been reading since 12 years old. its been 9 years no new book LOL
I am getting old...
The first book came out the same month I was born.
This is why I refuse to start reading until they are all out....maybe in my 40s.....and I'm 25 right now....
YEAH ME FUCKING TOO XD GEORGE FIX YOUR GODDAMN WRITING SCHEDULE!
*Slaps Dreams of Spring*
"This baby can fit so many loose ends"
Best use of meme through description of 2018 goes to you my friend. I laughed so long over this. #itsfunnybecauseitstrue
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Oh man I laughed way too hard at that. I haven't had water come out of my nose in a good while :D
Honestly this is probably the reason George is taking so long. There is so much to wrap up for so many characters
@@lifeisbutadreamm I have to wait until 8 on x
"Good! That's one less loose end!"
*George shoots Victarion in the stomach, Areo in the head*
Splitting the book into two volumes seems to be the most pragmatic approach. He's made it clear that he isn't willing to limit the scope of what he's already written so far. Split it into two parts and let the publisher sell them bundled together.
They can even brag and slap a sticker on it, "A story too big for one book."
Or seven books, for that matter.
Adrian Wyatt totally agree, better to develop these characters than take out parts that grow them. And 2 books would be awesome but I’m not sure he’d be willing to split the books up
@@dadman8474 Yes I agree. It would really surprise me if there aren't 7 books total. I believe he has a attachment to that number.
@@brycew3987 7 kingdoms,7 gods,7 books i see a pardon here
You're right that would be the most sensical choice but he said in an interview that he really likes the fact that there are 7 goods 7 kingdoms... and 7 books. So... yeah.
This is one of the most popular pieces of media in the world. If a publisher isn’t willing to stick two books into a box and call them Part One and Part Two, they are crazy.
It's George who doesn't want that. The Publishers did tell him to do that. I remember reading that in one of his blogs... ups "not blogs".
Thats what they want to do! Its george thats reluctant to do so
A Storm of Swords was split up with Part 1 and Part 2 as well. Part 1 was Steel and Snow and Part 2 was Blood and Gold
I love having multiple volumes of one work, as a book-lover myself. I’d love to see that. Makes it look really important haha
@@Usurpationblitz In the U.S, Storm was one volume. It was only in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and Israel that it was split into two.
So basically it wouldn't be 7 volumes, it would be 9. We will get book 6 in 2026, book 7 in 2044, book 8 in 2089 and book 9 in 2143. That is going to be awesome!
if he splits them, i think he will be hell-bent to release WoW at one time, so 2044 at the earliest.
I feel bad for the man now....hope he can do it. Also hope he lives to write Dream
It is his dream to write the dream after all
I calculated, that could finish A Dream Of Spring at his 100th birthday. The rest’s for you
@@flowrianeast42 goddamit lol
well arent you just a ray of sunshine
FFS were gonna have to wait another decade for dream?
He could get it down to less than 800 pages if he didn't describe what every Tyroshi walnut smelled like.
Now I want a chapter with Tyroshi walnuts
@@AdmiralKird LOL. Great video btw.
@Tracchofyre That's the Harry Potter series in a nutshell for me. The earlier books were nice and to the point. The later books, not so much. I even had to put down the 5th book, The Order of the Phoenix because it was getting incredibly dull and tedious with the details surrounding the Ministry of Magic, for me, it was like, who cares? I want to see what happens to Harry and friends.
And that actually worries me his books keeps getting bigger he keeps adding new places and cahracters knowing very well that he only has 2 books left to end the story it actually makes me think that he doesn't want to end it because he doesn't know how to actually give this story a proper conclusion
@@Sherlock910 I can understand that but it's actually what I loved about Order of the Phoenix. Harry's going through such a tough time that every new day is such a challenge and life is pretty excruciating for him. It is bloated, but it kind of works for me because I really feel like I'm experiencing it with him.
Let's be real, we'd all buy, read, and enjoy two volumes of TWOW
I'm excited for Stannis' story and how that's gonna turn out once Sansa returns to The North
Yeah! With that said, I don’t want the story to finish posthumously..I want GRRM to finally tell the story and talk about...low key I feel like he’s nervous as fuck, just to end something he spent decades on
@@gfilmer7150 I think he wrote the pink letter
@@RedpillRetreat Motive makes sense but the timing doesn’t.
@@gfilmer7150 True. His army is starving
I would rather have Winds of Winter split up into two books sold together than cutting characters stories short in order to fit the chapters into one book
Sadly i think george is actively trying to reduce to one book.
@@veloce5491 That sucks...I hope he doesn't rush the story he has been telling for decades now just in order to fit it into two books
he did say he wants it in 3000 manuscripts ( 2 full books) but he did say if he needs to add more chapters ( pages...) then he will so i don't think he restrains himself like that. Heck his publishers want its like that but he doesn't want a feast or dragon situation ( where took 6 yrs i think for the second part to come) if he doing a 2 parter it be released simultaneously.
@@greeneagle_13 I think it's unlikely that he'll compromise it much
True and most of the time if you like reading books in one part instead of two like I did with SOS and DWD then u can probably find a version online that’s the entire story in one volume instead of having to buy the two separate parts
2:25 Can we start a petition to make that the official cover for A Dream of Spring?
@@officialiheartleila4560 Thomas had never heard such wise words before.
Official iHeartLeila
oh
yessir
The cover art for TWOW is fan made? What the fuck, i always thought it was official and i have seem people saying that it was. My mind is completely blown.
Even GRRM on his "notablog" was confused and thought it was official because he saw it all over the internet for years. But yeah it was done up by a fan, cover art generally isn't done until right before a book is published in the publishing process and authors have almost no say in what it looks like. Brandon Sanderson has a good author's lecture on the process but he has so many lectures it's hard to find which one it was.
Since Tommen is still alive in the beginning of Winds of Winter, there must be a Ser Ponce POV chapter. You forgot to talk about the word count for that chapter.
Meow, Meow mew, Meow mew mew, Meow meow meow meow meow.
@@AdmiralKird GRRM, is that you?
Tammy Gordin swiftly followed by a Hodor POV
“Rhaenys had a little kitten once, a black tomcat called Balerion. She thought it would protect her, like the dragons of old. Ser Armory Lorch broke her of that illusion when he dragged her from under her bed and dashed her skull against a wall.”
I’m going to be disappointed if this doesn’t happen now.
You forgot the 6 chapters we need for Quentyn when it turns out he's still alive as well as the 8 brand new POV characters where we introduce the complex political situation currently brewing in Norvos led by Doran Martel's wife, Mellario, the all new Gilly POV and her experience at Horn Hill, the exciting adventures of Turnip the gender-fluid cook's child that escaped the sacking of Winterfell, and so much more!
This... would be quite the book indeed
honestly just print two books. Seriously. Just. Make it Two parts that are sold together. Its gonna be more expensive. but you know IF I get two books over 600 or 800 paiges long? Yeah I am gonna shell out 40 bucks for it at least.
so in the UK edition they have already done this for Dance of Dragons/ Storm of Swords, happy they did tbh, also storm of swords is 4 books in French editions
Sory, how much is 500 pages long books in your country?
@@rosepetal34 as a French speaker that's entirely their fault for having such an unnecessarily wordy language
That is certainly the route I think would be best.
@@MyPisceanNature The problem with that could be that it doesnt fit with the plot. One thing that happens with one character effects what the other character do etc
Oh shit, this video is 5 years old.....
"and they just get everywhere" *pan out to Anakin in Naboo* that right there killed me. Good job, you earned this sub with that joke alone.
I didn't get that joke. Pls edukate me, ser
@@kozhikkaalan it's a reference to Star Wars Episode 2 when Anakin famously complained about hating Sand because it was coarse and got everywhere
What if Jon has no chapters? I mean, Catelyn died and came back, but when she came back she didn’t have any chapters. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if we only had Davos’s and Bran’s prospective at the wall. Just saying.
James & Audrey Purdue
I think this is very plausible. But don't forget that Melisandre is also a pov character now.
Mel had 1 chapter and I'd think she'll only have 1, MAYBE 2 in the next book. Simply because a big part of her character is mystery. But that leaves the problem of no real POV character at the wall. Bran is north and will go farther north; Davos is going to Skagos (the weird unicorn island) and maybe after that to the wall. My guess is that either Shireen or Dolorous Edd will get a few POV chapters. I might even prefere Shireen, since she can be... resolved rather quickly after Jon gets his reboner.
Yeah on second thought I'd definitely probably give Bran another chapter and knock one off of Melisandre at the end. However I gotta think GRRM will give Jon POV chapters again because he needs a way to differentiate him from Stoneheart, as well as I gotta think what he goes through in his personality of being trapped in Ghost for a long time will be something worth reading from a POV and what it does to his character, especially so we as the reader can contrast it with his earlier chapters.
Some needs to tell his story any way
Jim Nastycs If I remember right, George stated that there will not be any new POV characters in the story going forward, other than one off prologues and epilogues, so the POV characters we have in the story at this point are the only ones we're getting to see the rest of the story through.
I actually feel like it would be pretty great storytelling to not give Jon anymore pov chapters and we only see him through others eyes.
Our loss of this connection with him would mirror his own alienation from his identity and his existing relationships. I know it's more severe, but they already did it with Caitlyn/Stoneheart.
Brendan Tonkin insteresting, that would be really cool.
That’s what I was thinking
Makes sense
bro wtf he's ded.
@@dhruvgupta18 did u watch the show
"no fandom has lost their collective mind waiting for a release like this.."
me, **laughs/cries in berserk**
The series name fits. A lot of people have been mentioning Beserk around here...
@@AdmiralKird You should read it ;)
hunter hunter also
man....
@@yupi749 that comment aged like milk.. rest in piece
They spent 40 years in the desert AFTER they got the 10 commandments.
ahhha 40 days, than 40 years in the desert
@@TheAwsomeguy99 and then Moses got shit for hitting a rock too aggressively lol
I just watched The Ten Commandments so I can confirm
Who cares, all bs anyway.
@Jim Kwim It might have happened. You weren't alive 3000 years ago lmao.
People have most likely died of sickness and old age while waiting for this book. Thats pretty insane to consider.
you forgot the hot pie chapters. he has to have at least 10 or 12 povs
The ASOIAF series is GRR Martin's life's work, his legacy. He doesn't just want to crank out another bestseller. He wants it to be so good that it's timeless, like the fantasy works of Tolkien and CS Lewis. He's been writing these books/ developing the characters and world throughout DECADES of his life. To the fans who read the whole series in a year and want the author to pump out the next book at your convenience: practice patience! Read Tolkien, CS Lewis, Dickens, Tolstoy, etc. If you like historical/ military fiction, try the many series written by Bernard Cornwell.
Scarlet i wouldn’t suggest C.S Lewis over modern writers
Try
Sanderson
Rothfuss
Abercrombie
Hobb
Lynch
And so many more
It is his legacy and if he's not careful his legacy will be an unfinished series of books with great potential but with a horrible ending revealed in an HBO drama.
@@mikyto7313 He cares more about the good life than his legacy. This series will never get finished, Martin and his fans are just in a state of denial.
Nothing compares to ASOIAF.
This is so true, imagine that Tolkien started writing Lotr in 1930's and finished in the 50's!
"It's the human book, in conflict with itself" Genuinely made me laugh out loud. Also, managed to poke myself in the eye while writing this.
Shitt😂😂👍
"...or sth like that IDK"
haha yeah
The human eye, in conflict with itself.
I once saw GRRM at a Magic the Gathering Simpsons Cameo Cosplay Convention and I asked him how the book was coming along. He slowly turned to me and belted out "Dracarys!", as loud as he could. I woke up 2 days later with a splitting headache and no eyebrows. So yeh, he's doing great (sic).
It's been almost 6 years since this video came out
I remember watching this Video 5 years ago....and still the Winds of Winter haven't arrived.
A Dance with Dragons is NOT a sequel to Storm. Half of it is. The second half of Dance ties to stories of Feast and the first half of Dance back together. The story is already tied back together. George does not have to do that with Winds because he already did it. Plus some of those POV characters from both books have died or will die in Winds. This will make the new book even more condensed. It’s not that tough a task for George to make the story fit. The hardest part, speaking from my own experience as a writer, is getting the logistics to fit in the plot. Page number is not a big deal, story movement is the biggest issue.
I understand what you mean, but with the exception of Asha (whose AFFC chapter is more like a prequel to her bulk 3 chapters in Dance), the majority of them are just one or two chapters that act as Coda's to the AFFC portion, 9 chapters. So for the majority of Dance, it's acting as the sequel to ASOS by taking those characters, where they left off at the end of Storm, and carrying them forward. So I have to think of it more like a sequel to ASOS because... that's just what the majority of it is.
@@AdmiralKird at least a third of dance is a sequel to feast. You can say it's mostly a sequel to storm but that kinda ignores the fact that the story has been reconciled in most regards. Are we sure that there's going to be a dance of dragons v2?
Aegons whole point was to prove himself to Daenerys(thanks Tyrion). She's got the dragons so he needs some part of a kingdom to bring to the table.
Ooooooooor you're right and there's gonna be a mad rush of character movement and death to fit it all down.
-
Very interesting! He’s said he’s “resisting” splitting up TWOW, but he didn’t exactly close the door on the possibility... given the sheer size you’ve projected, I suspect that’s where we’re headed.
Yeah honestly I think TWOW should be one book while ADOS is split
So what you're saying is...George is trying to..HOLD THE DOOR.
At this point, I wonder if he isn't resisting the idea of writing the damn books
He doesn't give anything away with his words does he?
I hope he doesn't try to keep rewriting just to make it fit in one book. I wouldn't mind two volumes if they're released at the same time.
He's delayed because he overwrote. Most writers know the temptation to expand cast and characters in the second act, and many-- but fewer -- writers know the hell that indulgence creates by the third act.
Introducing characters solves problems, builds drama, and allows you to include more of the world you built. However, it also means you have to end more things in a way that contributes to the narrative, makes sense for that character, AND contributes to the lead character's arc. One ending is fucking hard and increases exponentially--not additively--with each new point in the web. To end 20 viewpoint characters he has to build at least 60 clear connections, all while describing where people are and what's happening.
Overwriting is a huge mistake, though one that theoretically can be handled. But it makes perfect sense that he made a draft that failed structurally. The rube goldberg machine of a plot told by 20 people is on the level of quantum mechanics. He's made something that is almost impossible to end. Almost.
Reversing an expansion into a contraction that doesn't narratively feel like a forced contraction is hard.
@@AdmiralKird God knows, I don't know how he can do it except to let the whitewalkers make it further than they do on the show. That will slim the chapters. But still, given the pattern of more and more characters, there has to be a world reason--as you note-- why our viewpoint would slim down.
@@AdmiralKird They managed to do it in the Wheel of Time quite effectively (even before Sanderson took over) so it's not impossible. I mean Barristan Tyrion Dany Victarion will all be in the same place, as will Jon Connignton Cersei Arianne, plus Sansa and Jon will probably join armies at Winterfell, so all the characters are joining together, so you could eliminate some of the secondary viewpoints like Barristan and Arianne. Plus Stannis is planning to execute Theon, so it could be the end for him too (though doubtful).
@@AdmiralKird I'll guess he'll do this by killing some of them off. However, that all takes quite a lot of time and planning. If we just look at one sub-plot line, you can easily need quite a large number of chapters. For example, If Dorne allies with the mummer dragon, that is going to need at least 3 chapters (two from A and one from John C as a minimum). Two of the sand snakes are off the Kings Landing and the other to Darkstar. Is that two or three chapters ? Battle of Storms end is one more. The gathering of (f)Aegon's army and its advance on Kings Landing followed by the new battle for Kings Landing can easily be two to four chapters (more). How many Cersei POV does this require (plus dealing with the High Sparrow, High Garden, Sand Snakes, Jamie etc). Does Cersei die or retreat from KL ? If Dany arrives in Westeros before the end of WoW will she and Tyrion deal with the Mummer Dragon (and probably some tragedy that will fall on the Martells/Dorne as a result) before heading North or afterwards (before I think). For any other writer this would be an entire novel in its own right.
Everything suggests that WoW is more likely to end up being two 1,500 page manuscript in practice. If you look at the 11 (?) sample chapters from WoW (c 10 to 15 % of the standard sized book of 90 to 100 chapters), they are all chapters which move the story forwards, but not to any conclusion. Each chapter would seem to drive the need for at least 1 other chapter to conclude that story.
If Vic goes out out fighting at meereen, it better be the best god damn battle scene George has ever written.
Winds part one
Dragon horn on the cover
Winds part two
Horn of Winter on the cover
Hyped!
I like it.
That would be great
Love this
I really respect the amount of work that went into the research in this video. I spent a lot of time thinking about this several weeks ago and pretty much came to the same conclusion. I really think GRRM is gonna have to increase the amount of books in the series.
The show feels rushed AF with 3 seasons. (less episodes but still rushed AF) I can't imagine how George is going to fit EVERYTHING on 2 books
Crazy this was 3 years ago. And now we have a new show. Shot a pilot for a 3rd. Yet still no WoW. Unbelievable!
GRRM has already read a first page of Winds, and it starts out 5 minutes right after the last book, and it seems he'll kill many characters in the first pages since two big battles are about to take place; and that's a big point of change in the book's events.
One battle is the Battle of Winterfell but what's the other battle? The Battle of Meereen?
@@dylanking5701
Yes , and the battle of storm end
@@erenyeagerii693 Ah, thank you. Comepletely forgotten about Connington's plot
I freaking love nerdy book/stats stuff like this. Great work and terrific presentation.
Not nerdy enough. Should have written a C program to get the word count smh.
agreed, excellent!
GRRM's writing style has actually changed a lot over the course of this series, to the point where the first 3 books almost feel like an prologue to a new story that's just beginning.
Then he should split it into two books: Winds of Winter Parts 1 and 2. Same with A Dream of Spring. That way, technically it'll be two books more, but that will give GRRM 4 books to wrap up the story.
I think he wants to have 7 books because of 7 gods , 7 kingsguard etx
@@mikoajtokar5846 well they could just be volumes. In the UK ASOS and ADWD are already split into two novels
"When will George break winds"....A far better title for this video! 😉😉😂😂
I like your style
i think sansa will have at least 6, here is why.
you are right by saying she isn't a central central character yet. but she will be in winds, remember, with most people thinking bran and rickon are dead, she would be the heir to winterfell, also the political situation with littlefinger and bronze yohn. and her link to harrenhal, there is simply too much to cover for only 4 chapters
...and her growth, maturation, character arc etc are so rich and vital to the central plot.
@@LordSathar have you even read the books?
@@Rakonax I think it's clear he hasn't if that's what he thinks her character is about.
Sansas plot is my favorite plot line. They will have the wedding, the marching north and Jon as king
Exactly I see Sansa getting into action in book 6. GRRM has been building her up - learning how to play the game and at some point, she will use it. No doubt it will start with her fleeing the Vale to get to Castle Black. There's a reason why she has been told that Jon is the Commander of the Night's Watch and that she senses him dying when she descends from the Eyrie.
"We have to start cutting people down." - specifically in reference to Theon.
No, that's cutting people up...
Unfortunately, George RR Martin has seemed to have literally ‘lost the plot’. The explosion of new characters and story arcs starting in AFFC has now meant that the story is a tangled mess of interweaving plot points. It must be an absolute nightmare to maintain continuity, let alone write an engaging story that makes sense
this could have been solved if game of thrones used the star wars format of a trilogy of trilogies, we know that the game of thrones story can essentially be cut in 3 parts....war of the 5 kings, second dance of dragons(between Aegon and Daenerys), and the battle for the dawn. Star wars handles three different wars by giving them EACH A TRILOGY to hash out it all out and it mostly worked. Lead up to war, the War, End of war and immediate aftermath. This would have given George RR martin CUT OFF points to wrap up a bunch of plot points in a fast paced third chapter and start the new chapter in the next book. 9 books each trilogy consisting of one war.
Steven Irizarry I don’t think he needs to be that structured. I think a better idea would have to be like LOTR: keep your main story a focused narrative, 4-5 books MAX, and then do the exploration of other parts of your world, kinda like the Silmarillion. Indeed, with the Dunk and Egg and Fire and Blood Series, GRRM has realised this: unfortunately, that realisation came after he exploded the plot lines in AFFC. Unfortunately, I’m sceptical TWOW will ever come out, let alone ASOIAF even being finished
Well Structually, ASoIaF is a bit of a narrative mess, but that's what happens when you try to pad a story with 1.5 books of pure filler.
@@LordSathar the 3 biggest mistakes Martin ever did was make essos boring compared to westeros on a world building level. Not having daenerys conquer meerene in book one, and sticking to the 7 book format. Instead I would be flexible.
This is how I would fix daenerys story....
AGOT - Viserys dies, Drogo dies, Dany and her Dothraki(worshipping her because of her dragons) take Mereen, free the unsullied and starts to rule in Mereen. this would mean making game of thrones much longer and making essos better built from a worldbuilding perspective.
ACOK - Dany ruling Mereen, ending slavery, Barristan arrives, at war with Yunkai. Does very well and proves her mettle. But the meerene politics have gotten her into a tough position(the meerene knot)
ASOS - Continues to rule Mereen, establishes a Council(showing the beginnings of democracy in planetos), recruits two sellsword companies, raises an army which Barristan is training, Quentyn comes across the sea and Dany, Ser Jorah and a small number of soldiers/household guard go across the sea to Dorne.
AFFC - They form an alliance with Euron, offering him domain of the Riverlands and her hand in marriage, he ferries the rest of her soldiers across the sea, Tyrion arrives and joins her cause, word arrives to the crown and Westeros that Dany has arrived. Little does Danny know, the lannistors are deposed by the high Sparrows whom they as well are taken out by aegon blackfyre and becomes king of westeros thanks to the iron bank and most importantly a ICE DRAGON from the shivering sea. Dany arrives at dragonstone. Jon snow dies as he did in dance of dragons, but one of his last acts was sending Dany a letter begging for help after what he seen in hardhome(the white walker army).
ADWD - Double cross Euron via clever Tyrion plan, install Asha instead. Unify Dorne by marrying Quentyn, war with aegon and lannistor forces(cersei marries aegon) since they're enemies of the crown. Negotiations with Stannis. Doran reveals he has numerous spys around Westeros. Receives letter from Jon snow to help beyond the wall, however Dany never reads the note or doesn't take it seriously. Dany is defeated and goes to dragonstone as euron gets control of all of the dragons. Dany is forced to flee to dragonstone, unable to really understand how to proceed. Stannis plot is concluded somehow.
WOW: Jon snow resurrection, Dany after lots of contemplation and character build up faces aegon targaryen and Euron(now the master of dragons) and uses her love for them to break the dragons out of eurons control and all three dragons rip euron apart. The final battle between aegon blackfyre and daenerys commences. stoneheart kills little finger and saves Sansa and goes to winterfell with her daughter, Arya arrives at winterfell different and inhuman like and stoneheart is forced to live a little longer to help them reconcile(final book). Cersei (after the defeat or surrender of aegon) decides to lock down kings landing. Jaime arrives and kills cersei before she can burn down the city with wildfire. Dany arrives and sends Jaime to the wall, Jaime is being sent to the wall. But Jaime doesn't realize that the wall has fallen.
A dream of spring: the final book, azor Hai is revealed, stoneheart helps her three remaining children reconcile, daenerys travels north to meet the white walkers head on.
@@yaketysaks disagree...that is the worst idea to do since WAR OF THE 5 KINGS(best arc in the whole series) took 3 books to start, fight, and finish. Feast for crows should have ended with Aegon blackfyre on the Iron throne with a ice dragon. While dany should have just arrived in westeros. this is how I would structure it
AGOT - Viserys dies, Drogo dies, Dany and her Dothraki(worshipping her because of her dragons) take Mereen, free the unsullied and starts to rule in Mereen. this would mean making game of thrones much longer and making essos better built from a worldbuilding perspective.
ACOK - Dany ruling Mereen, ending slavery, Barristan arrives, at war with Yunkai. Does very well and proves her mettle. But the meerene politics have gotten her into a tough position(the meerene knot)
ASOS - Continues to rule Mereen, establishes a Council(showing the beginnings of democracy in planetos), recruits two sellsword companies, raises an army which Barristan is training, Quentyn comes across the sea and Dany, Ser Jorah and a small number of soldiers/household guard go across the sea to Dorne.
AFFC - They form an alliance with Euron, offering him domain of the Riverlands and her hand in marriage, he ferries the rest of her soldiers across the sea, Tyrion arrives and joins her cause, word arrives to the crown and Westeros that Dany has arrived. Little does Danny know, the lannistors are deposed by the high Sparrows whom they as well are taken out by aegon blackfyre and becomes king of westeros thanks to the iron bank and most importantly a ICE DRAGON from the shivering sea. Dany arrives at dragonstone. Jon snow dies as he did in dance of dragons, but one of his last acts was sending Dany a letter begging for help after what he seen in hardhome(the white walker army). Dany Is offered hand in Marriage by Aegon Blackfyre(he is indeed a blackfyre) but she refuses and the first battles commence.
ADWD - Double cross Euron via clever Tyrion plan, install Asha instead. Unify Dorne by marrying Quentyn, war with aegon and lannistor forces(cersei marries aegon) since they're enemies of the crown. Negotiations with Stannis. Doran reveals he has numerous spys around Westeros. Receives letter from Jon snow to help beyond the wall, however Dany never reads the note or doesn't take it seriously. Dany is defeated and goes to dragonstone as euron gets control of all of the dragons. Dany is forced to flee to dragonstone, unable to really understand how to proceed. Stannis plot is concluded somehow.
WOW: Jon snow resurrection, Dany after lots of contemplation and character build up faces aegon targaryen and Euron(now the master of dragons) and uses her love for them to break the dragons out of eurons control and all three dragons rip euron apart. The final battle between aegon blackfyre and daenerys commences. stoneheart kills little finger and saves Sansa and goes to winterfell with her daughter, Arya arrives at winterfell different and inhuman like and stoneheart is forced to live a little longer to help them reconcile(final book). Cersei (after the defeat or surrender of aegon) decides to lock down kings landing. Jaime arrives and kills cersei before she can burn down the city with wildfire. Dany arrives and sends Jaime to the wall, Jaime is being sent to the wall. But Jaime doesn't realize that the wall has fallen.
I love the Dream of Spring book cover, lol.
Good analysis, but you sadly overlooked one thing: there is no way GRRM isn't going to add at least two new POV's (excluding pro- and epilogue).
Well, he said he wouldn't... but then he also says the book might be 1,500 pages so... idk. I think if it ends up being split AFFC/ADWD style the chance of a new POV goes up about 300%.
@@AdmiralKird Oh, I wasn't aware of this promise. But then again, he did include Ser Barristan sort-of last minute in Dance.
@@bramvandenheuvel4049 He had to include Barristan in DANCE though - at least so he said - since all the stuff happening in Meeren couldn't fit in the other guys' chapters, especially all of the political stuff. Yet I can not imagine, that he wants to tell that much more he can't tell in his POV chapters he already has since he has fucking 20 POV-Characters. That are so fucking many, even though I personally believe, that Jon will not get more than two chapters in WINDS, if he will get a chapter at all, but that's another story.
George has said NO new POV chapters . .
Bram van den Heuvel - hopefully he won’t need to introduce new POVs because hopefully from this point forwards he will start to bring the different characters back together, rather than splitting them further and further apart. He needs to start tying up and resolving plots lines and tying them together, rather than expanding, splitting, and adding more.
You know, people waste valuable energy meaning about the time it is taking for WOW but when it's broken down like this you really can see the massive amount of work needed.
Watching this vid in 2022 for some level of comfort 🙂
No fandom has waited this long
Berserk fandom cries together
I thought to myself, no way is Berserk that old
Then I looked it up: the series started in 1992!
I'm relieved that I stopped reading it
@@spinakker14 too bad it's back then.
Itll be like the Dark Tower series, great build up to a so so meandering ending. Very difficult to end an epic series.
* Very difficult to an end an epic series if you haven't planned it properly first.
Lets hope not
This is my worst nightmare. I stopped reading DT after book 5 just because it was getting really dumb and reading the summaries online I’m glad I didn’t waste my time
@@210SAi - Yeah it did. I can't remember the books anymore, but as soon as King started making himself as a character it was like really dude? You can't figure out anything better? And many people consider that his magnum opus ...
One of my favourite theories is that there could be no Jon chapters until the epilogue, at which point there is a big reveal...
Jon was in ghost the whole time!!! But if that's true, what happened when he was resurrected? Who or what is controlling his body?
That actually feels so G R R Martin
@@Morfeusm I heard that one on Rawrist's channel in one of her dark theories videos.
If he speeds up the walkers they could reach the wall and distract all the people there. Jon's body could then sit in the ice cells unmolested until whatever causes his return. No need of a puppet Jon in that case, I personaly still think Catelyn will bring him back for some reason myself. Lady stoneheart has served no purpose other than more killing at this point and he could have just made Berric change tactics if that was the plan.
@@davidmarriott6321 I like the idea of puppet Jon and not knowing who the puppet master is. Then Jon as Ghost killing Jon's body only to get killed again by someone else thinking they're defending Jon.
why does everyone think he will be resurrected?
I reckon Jon is no longer a POV character after he is resurrected just like Catelyn becoming Stoneheart, its the best way to maintain some mystery but also cuts down on chapters.
This is the most pedantically nerdy Winds of Winter video on RUclips.
Well done.
Quality Content Alert
George confirmed there is a prologue in TWOW, he revealed it at comic con 2014 or 2015 at the very end. He also said that Jeyne Westerling will be featured in it not the POV though.
Well there is a pattern GRRM prologues
AGOT - Beyond the Wall
ACOK - Maester Cressen
ASOS - Beyond the Wall
AFFC - The Citadel Acolyte Pate
ADWD - Beyond the Wall
so TWOW has to be a Maester and should be a Maester with Jeyne Westerling if she is part of the prologue
"No fandom has lost their collective minds waiting for a new release like this since the Israelites waited 40 years in the desert for The Ten Commandments"
Um... Tool (band) fans say "Hi".
So many broken fandoms out there. Beserk, Half-Life, now Tool. I'll have to remember all of these.
At least Tool fans now have a confirmed release date for the upcoming album.... TWOW still nowhere in sight
Lol tool got a new album
@@AdmiralKird Hunter X Hunter
Since viewing this video, almost literally a year ago, I have rewatched it every time I've finished the series. I've watched it 4 times now
4 years later 💀
The story as a whole has been consistently growing in complexity and detail with each book, becoming larger and larger; to suddenly 'compress' it so much would mean a much rapid pace (I don't even think it's feasible, considering his writing style!)and leaving loose ends behind, and that would be very detrimental to the overarching themes and a betrayal on George's part to his past work; I doubt he'd be willing to make that compromise just for the sake of having the book in one volume.
He's still in denial about it, but he'll come around...
Well, except that a lot of characters are coming together. Brienne and Jamie could have two POVs each, but that would still mean four chapters to tell their story. Jon's story could be told in both his own POVs, and Melisandre's. If Sansa ends up going to Winterfell she might meet Asha and Theon, and later Jon.
Jon Connington, Arianne and Cersei might be at the same place for a large portion of the book. Likewise, Victarion, Tyrion, Barristan and hopefully Dany soon might join their POVs to tell one story. Actually, I don't think Dany necessarily needs to end her story in this book reaching Dragonstone. Back when George wrote his original outline he didn't have any plans for Aegon. He might be getting the role that Dany was meant to have.
@@Danjen3ify that's actually a good point. Dany is the toughest one, imo, but I think with Barristan and maybe a bit of Tyrion you could tell her story through three different POVs, which would speed up the pace considerably
I love this mathematical approach to theorizing Winds. Also I hope he doesn't cut it down I need that THICC book.
Honestly, George should just release WoW as Part 1 and 2 simultaneously i mean paperback for SoS and DoD was spilt into 2 for UK editions (Australia...). I know that's not the same thing as those books hardcover was still one book. But regardless if it's that massive he should just do that, people would be glad to pay full price for two books for WoW. I rather George not rush his books ( cough cough S5-8) but i honestly wouldn't want AFFC or ADWD situation ever again, released simultaneously i have no issues with.
I love how he used linear regression to draw conclusions about TWOW. I just learned about regression in Statistics and I find this both hilarious and insightful. But he shouldn't extrapolate too too much.
There is NOOOOO way the series is going to be only 7 books, his writing style got too dense especially in the last 2 books not that it is a bad thing just now he defiantly won't finish the series. It would have to be like 10 books.
Fair point
Oh well those books honestly i think were padded because the publisher wanted to drag out a cash cow.
10 books? Damn
LordSathar no
8, probably. 10 is too much, and 7 will definitely not be enough.
This video is only stoking my hype... I hope it is split into two, with them releasing separately as II volumes, but within the same year and as a surprise announcement at Comic-Con.
Love the video, but I dont think you are accounting for the fact that POV characters coming together drastically cuts down how many chapters they will need. For one I think a lot of the Jon story will be told by other characters at the wall and Dany can have her story shown through the eyes of barristan, tyrion, and even victarion. Plus if he cuts the return to Qarth and she cuts from mereen/volantis straight back to westeros (GRRM loves having characters show up in unexpected places). I might just be a sweet child of summer but with some time jumps and characters picking up pov for each other I think he can cut it down more than you say
I could very, very well see the pacing of TWOW pick up from where AFFC/ADWD were at. Those books were written to fill in five years of character development so a return to less chapters per character is highly feasible.
GRRM said he entertained the thought of a 5yr time jump but ruled it out because it worked for some characters like Arya and Daenerys but didn’t work for others like Cersei and Jon. Initially Daenerys story in DANCE (with the time jump) was supposed to start with her and Drogon flying away from the fighting pit. www.cbr.com/game-of-thrones-time-jump-squelched-fear-fan-outrage/
This video has basically convinced me that the final book count for the series is very likely to get to 8. As teased by grrm publisher years ago.
No need for the self deprecating disclosures my friend. This video is fantastic and well researched. Nice work!
What about a double book? You release twow in two books but sell them together instead of releasing them independently.
More probable that he does this than changes his story because of format...
MementoMori
Both ASOS and ADWD got split up into two parts.
The reason why he released AFFC is basically because he already knew that ADWD would take too long etc.
TWOW will more likely be split up into three parts, each 500 pages or so.
Publishers would probably split release as they did with books 4&5
@@210SAi GRRM said he’s against that idea
I can't believe how much time you spent theorizing and making graphs.... this is outrageous.... you're outrageous.... and I love you.
This is stilly favourite video on this subject. The amount of detail and speculation about the book series is incredible. It's an incredibly niche subject that I somehow love
I think George wants the series to have exactly seven books, because seven is such an important numbee in the books.
They can go beyond 1500 pages if the publisher uses bible paper. Case closed.
I'm not sure the printing machines for these books can accept pages of this lower thickness.
Hahahaha my eyes are looking forward to it!
This guy said “it just gets everywhere” with Annakin and I automatically had to subscribe. I love it. I hope this is your breakout video and your channel really blows up. Good for you brotha
The only thing I can conclude at the end of this video is that Game of Thrones is no Song of Ice and Fire.
I can't take almost anything that happened in the show as a possible event after a certain amount of time, so many characters I didn't even knew about, and the fact that there are so many different events will probably shake everything in the story.
Which means there's always hopes for a Song of Ice and Fire that doesn't ruin itself.
My man, I wholeheartedly appreciate the time and effort it took to make this. With all those statistics, and information you had to find and all that... MAD props. However, what in the shit did I just listen to for almost a half hour haha. Too funny
“He killed off the parents, basically any Disney story” - Whoa, mind blown, such a great note, Thank you for pointing that out!
I come here 3x a week hoping for your next video. Ready for your Kings Landing breakdown
That cover on a dream of spring is magnificent!
6 More Weeks of Winter!
In the end George is going to cave and release the story of Winds of Winter over two books.
If they come out at all, which I don't think they will.
LordSathar - Winds will come out. Dream is another question...
I’m hoping for 2022. He just updated his blog saying he wrote hundreds of pages in 2020
I'll give you that it isn't the way to write a book but it sure is a very rational & logical way of predicting the size & brake down of the book. This is a lot of hard work. Thank you for the effort. This is one very awesome video.
Thank you.
love this video and the reference to his essay in the end. please make more great stuff like this
This video made me ponder the possibility of never getting another dany chapter. Maybe where we left her in dance is the point where she looses her “goodness”. Her slow decent into madness might be better told through other pov characters. Also, to see her possible change through her own eyes might be pulling back the curtain too far. Apologies if others have posted this idea. This video has been out a while and i didnt take the time to read all the comments.
Lol imagine this video still being relevant in 2023 💀💀💀
Came to watch and seeing it’s 5 years old. Oh god. We’re still waiting
You know what I wish we could've gotten? I wish GRRM had released Winds little by little - just give us installments as they are completed, 50-100 pages every couple years in a serialized version. And even if Winds ended up being twice as long as Dance and Feast combined, we would still have gotten material over the last 10 years.
If all of the chapters are like Arianne's sample chapters, I completely agree. However, if they're more like Theon's sample chapter (where a metric shit-ton of stuff actually gets accomplished in a short period of time), I can see him doing it.
I have 722000 words essay for tomorrow but instead I'm watching this...
anyway, cool vid looking forward to more.
You are a brave one
What the hell, are you a PhD student?
What's the essay about? No way you could finish that in one night.
Yeah... There's no way that 722000 words is right. That is the size of an abnormally large novel. Who writes essays the size of abnormally large novels in a day? If you can do that, you must have superpowers.
It's obviously exaggeration with numbers based on the video's numbers lol
Togashy and Martin are so proud of each other
This might be my favorite video on youtube. I watched it like 5 times in the past year.
I just realized this was 5 years ago 😭.
I suspect the problem GRRM might have is that he has trouble with the sequencing. I think it’s plausible that he’s very far into the end of the entire story, including Dream, but because of how he was written them, is struggling to break them up into two definitive books (I.E he’s not convinced where Winds ends and Dream begins because there is that much going on). I do also think he’s rewriting a lot of stuff, which a lot of authors do, but more so perhaps because he’s decided a different path for certain characters than what was depicted in the TV show.
This explains SO much. Great stuff! subbed
Awesome video man! Can't wait to see more stuff!
This is such a great video! It’s so nerdy but also realistic and your narration is very fun. I hope you make more videos!
I heard a rumour that Winds of Winter is gonna be duo release with Half-Life 3
What if... TWOW is Half-Life 3?
Now that HLA is out it probably has!
I heard George's plan to maximize word count is to omit descriptions of characters' meals. He estimates this will shorten by the novel by 50% /s
Bla bla... Fiery dornish peppers, blood sausages and wash it down with a cup of ale... Bla bla...
And this is 5 years ago
The only way to make the series work is to actually end more character arcs before the final book.
9 book format was better for the series
The 5 kings storyline(best storyline in my opinion) was done in this format...BEFORE THE WAR(game of thrones was the prelude to the 5 kings), WAR(clash of kings), END OF WAR AND AFTERMATH(storm of swords).
We know that the original trilogy idea(game of thrones was pitched as As a epic trilogy covering 3 wars) was supposed to cover the war of the five kings, the second dance of dragons, and the battle for the dawn. So do a LOTR and make a trilogy out of each war and divide game of thrones into a trilogy of trilogies(star wars format) and have 9 novels