Choosing the Right Grip Size
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- txg.ca - We go very in-depth on grip size in this video, testing four different grip sizes on an identical club to analyze what (if any) difference in ball flight the different grips produce.
SPECS FROM VIDEO:
Weight
Undersize - 43g
Standard - 49g
Midsize - 57.5g
Oversize - 88g
Swingweight of club with each grip
Undersize - D5
Standard - D4
Midsize - D1
Oversize - C7
Filmed at: Tour Experience Golf
Custom Golf Club Fitting Studio - Toronto, Canada
Featuring: Ian Fraser & Matt Blois
Who would’ve thought that a 32 minute video on grip size could have been so interesting, lol. Great job as always guys and it’s no wonder that the subscriber number keeps growing.
😆👍
Hahah i saw the time stamp and thought, look out, theres a 60 min plastic/wood tee blockbuster around the corner! 😁
@@clubchampionmedia3? m9
LOL I know. I woulda said there's zero chance I'm listening to half an hour of grip size.
Like many comments, I discovered using larger grips than standard was a huge improvement to my "comfort" and translated into the more controlled hits on all clubs.
Yep. In my case, standard feels best with an extra wrap on lower half for right hand but I have average size hands with shorter fingers. Large cadet glove.
I know this is an "older" video, but would love to see a comparison in reference to tapered vs less tapered vs non tapered grips. Plus 4 and plus 2 (lower hand wraps) are a very talked about grip configuration, but have yet to see a straight forward explanation of the potential benefits/hindrances of this setup. Regardless, love the channel, love the content. Keep up the great work
Man I want these guys to give me a fitting. I've been to several "fittings" and it seems like they just say "yep the numbers look good". We don't really try different shafts much or grips or head weights or anything. I just bought all new clubs and I'm not fully confident they're exactly what I need.
I 5
to be honest most golfers don't need a super in-depth fitting, just make sure everything is working well enough and the rest of it is on the golfer fixing big swing faults to hit it better, THEN get a in-depth fitting
I think you're right.
Go to club chsmpion theyve actually just acquired txg
I believe every golfer needs a static fitting to get the right specs but dynamic fittings really benefit the better golfers with their more consistent strike and swing
I've been golfing my whole life (I'm 24 now) and never even considered grip size to be a factor. When I just couldn't figure out why I hit my 3 wood straight but hooked my driver i realized it could be because my 3 wood is midsize and my driver is standard. Now my driver has a midsize grip and its straight or falls off to the right like my other shots.
Great video guys! Wish you had added some lead tape to the bottom of the club at the end to bring the swing weight back to what it was with the Standard grip as a prove point.
Great post fellas. I've been using midsize grips for years. I don't have big hands but I have long fingers and the middle finger(go figure) of my left hand digs into the meaty part of my palm. For your guys own info, if your interested where I really like the midsize grips is on my wedges especially for chipping and pitching. Feels like I have more control over the wedges and on my driver. All my clubs have midsize grips on them but the wedges and the driver are the clubs I prefer them on the most. Cheers.👍🇨🇦🏌
Great video but...there's a bit of misinformation here. Changing to heavier grips changes swing weight, but ONLY on the swingweight scale. It does not make a club feel less head heavy. The total weight of the club will obviously increase but unless you're putting on a Jumbo grip it would not be very noticeable. Think of it this way - if you wore a heavy watch on your wrist (like Phil Mickelson), or stuck some lead tape in your glove, and swung your club, would your club head FEEL lighter? Of course not. Adding or taking away weight from the butt end of a club only "fools" the simple swingweight scale. The worst possible thing to do if putting on a heavy grip, is then to increase the club head weight just to "fool" the swingweight scale into indicating that the "measured" swing weight is the same as it was. Generally speaking, the likely effect for most would be creating a overall heavier golf club which could slow down your swing speed. A long standing clubbuilder's rule is to swingweight a club using a 50 gram grip- that is the true swingweight. If you want to put a 58 gm grip on the club it will not make the club head or swing weight feel lighter. usual recommendation is to just leave the head weight alone when adding a heavier grip. The "real" perceived swingweight will have not changed.
Thank you for making this awesome video.
I am a oversize jumbogrip player. It was the best decision I made switching from standard grip size.
However I want to point out is that whenever I show my clubs to normal size players they were shocked and felt uncomfortable to them because the hold it with interlocking grip.
I myself hold it like a baseball grip, or 10 fingers grip.
I’ve just discovered grips, I grip mine the same as your-baseball style. I have a short unorthodox swing, i have a wide stance and kinda swing it like a baseball swing with weight falling behind the ball the shifting forward. Hope your game is going well. Thanks for commenting.
Another stellar video! Love the talk about swing weight in relation to grips. No more “just slap on that flavour of the month grip” yearly!
While the differences of swing weight truly affected his delivery I’m curious if taper size will affect his feel and if he thinks he can turn it over more with an aggressive taper rather than no taper. Great thing you have Iron Matt to test these theories!
I love jumbo grips. Standard or undersized feel like I’m holding a pencil. I grew up playing baseball with a lot of tape on the handle. Jumbo grips make me feel like I’m holding and bat and I can swing away and know that the club isn’t moving around in my hand.
I've actually tried the baseball grip at the driving range today! For me, I actually noticed some improvements to my irons and hybrids. My 3 wood and driver I compared my interlock grip with baseball. 3 wood was a little inconsistent, but I think with some adjustments I can let it fly. For the driver, interlock was better for me.
In short, I have a use for both methods.
Very interesting to see the changes in Matt's backswing whilst im jumping between videos! Looks better shorter. Keep going guys. Love the videos.
More information than I ever could have imagined on grips. Love the explanation relating to swing weight.
Surely for a more complete comparison the swing weight should be adjusted across the grips sizes to ensure the results are only related to grip and no weight. Seems a pointless test.
Great video as always! Would have interesting to see what happenes to the ballflight if you had adjusted the swing weigt back to D4 with the jumbo grip on?
As someone who has always been Mr Average (standard length, reg shaft, standard lie, standard grip, medium glove...) I would be really interested to have a fitting to the highest quality that TXG does, just to see if I would still be Mr Average.
One day!
This looks exactly as I feel on a recent change from standard to midsize. Very validating on the feel difference of not being able to turn over the club head. Thanks for the video.
Do you like the change to midsize?
I would have expected you'd use a driver(the longest club in the bag) to see if grip size matters or not. It's also the club that I would think most people put the most effort into swinging, thus you'd see more of a difference if there is one. But, you'd need to adjust the swing weight for each grip to make sure it's not the swing weight or heft feel that's making a difference, of course that's more difficult to do with irons unless you want to use lead tape for the temporary adjustments.
This is by far the most informative golf channel on RUclips. I wouldn't be surprised if you hit 100k subscribers by the end of the year. I had switched back and forth between midsize and standard about 2 times until I tried out the mcc+4 grips. Is that something you commonly fit people for in the shop? Thanks!
They are definitely getting more popular!
Don't know if anyone else has asked for this, but I would be interested in seeing a video that addresses the effect of counter balancing. I read about it from time to time but have never seen a good comparison with a conventionally swing weighted club tested against the same club counter balanced.
Just had a fitting with Dean Fry and this was not a part of the fitting process and my purchase .He only asked which one I liked from the rack of samples . I picked the ones which were on the shafts I chose never offered to try any of the others.Definitely didn’t get the icing on the cake.
Absolutely loving all your content guys, I wish you had a place in the UK with all your knowledge! I got fitted with G400 through the bag except for putter at the UK’s main high street retailer last year, now I’m pretty sure I’ve been fitted incorrectly for shaft, grip and fairway woods! Keep up the great work👍
I wear an XL size glove and when I switched to midsize grips, there was an imidiate difference in comfort and accuracy. Helped my iron play the most.
This is one of the limitations of swing weight and why I build using MOI matching instead of swing weight. Extra weight under the hands doesn't require extra force to swing the club (that's why his swing speed didn't drop). The change you're seeing is due to size, not swing weight.
Changing swing weight in the head makes real difference... Changing swing weight via grip weight does not.
While this is a long time after posting of this video, it would be interesting to show the result of adding head weight with the larger grip to bring the swingweight back to normal range. The total club weight will be much heavier and the MOI of the club will be much higher.
My hand size is between normal and midsize. Normal grips make my hands close the club face at impact.
I play midsize with one layer of tape. I like the feel to have the club more in my hand than in the fingers. Makes the club face close less or not at all for me.
My midsize grips (Karma Midsize) weight 55 grams. The standard grips I got after my fitting of the clubs weights 52 grams. So there is little less of one swing weight in change.
1 thing I’ve noticed is depending on the grip size, interlock or overlap might feel more comfortable
Would be cool to see a “how to” video of the air compressor grip change process
Since they are using Pure grips they probably are using this tool from them with a compressor. www.puregrips.com/product/pure-green-attachment
The Winn Dri-Tac range of grips have just a 1g increase between standard and midsize, and another 1g between midsize and oversize. I think that's pretty cool, so you can change grip size without messing with swing weight.
I'd like to see a long term test on grip size because golfers have a tendency to override changes after they get more used to them. I know for myself, I went to bigger grips to try and tone down a hook, and it worked initially, but after a while they seemed to make no difference. I even used Jumbo max grips, and I had more of a tendency to shut the face down too much with those.
I've gone to medium sized Jumbo max and I'm far more accurate, quicker overall and hand pain is gone...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Bryson Dechambeau hit 203 ball speed with the xl jumbomax grips installed. Good enough for me.
Would like to see how grips are blown on/off....anybody else?
Ray Hamilton I would still like to see this. I’ve seen other videos, but I only trust TXG! Haha
Did you find you could always take your normal grip no matter which size you were using? I am thinking of moving back to standard as I feel I cannot get my left hand into a comfortable strong position. been bugging me for a while this. ordered new grips this evening so will soon find out.
Good question Gary, the size of the grip would likely influence how you take your grip as it changes how the club fits in your hand.
I went from standard my whole life to an MCC4 midsize trying to straighten out my ball flight. Now I’m pushing good shots and also having a ton of inconsistency in contact (mainly hitting it fat more often). The contact issues have been really troubling, so I’m going to have to experiment with something smaller than midsize w wraps on a standard
Second part of the equation is grip size on the right-hand
No offense but I think this test can not come down to conclusion.
The purpose of this experiment, I believe, is to see the affects of too small, fitted and too big grip size. However, it just showed the affect of fit, bigger and too big grip size due to the fact that the shaft butt end size is 0.615 so it caused the undersize to feel quite normal for Matt (Matt, himself, also mentioned that too). I would love to see him hit with a grip that he says right away that it feels small.
Also, as the size progress, the weight progress too so the test did not quite cut off the factor that the lighter of the club head causes different timing. From my club fitting experience(I am a fitter too), most of the time the lighter club head cause the golfer to leave the face open which also can be a part of explanation why his ball did go left as you mentioned in the video.
Hope you make another test about this and eliminate weight factor out of the equation so the conclusion will be more solid.
Love your show, anyway.
Wondering if results would be similar with a driver. If so im taking my grip off and just holding the shaft to close my face.
At last...effect of grip size properly analysed. Without doubt the best golf equipment education ever seen on RUclips or any other medium for that matter . You guys rock!
Thanks Martin!!
I play reminder grips with 2 extra layers of tape always struggle when testing demo clubs which have thin round grips on them
Great video again. It really shows what it takes to get the right feel of the club. I know I prefer midsize bc of the feeling I have even though I as well am a medium glove. I got tired of adding wraps so made the the move from std to midsize and shot strike was better and more in target. Thanks for the great knowledge you provide
Great video guys! I was fit for oversized grips and I really feel like it hurt my comfort level and harder to close the face.
What would be the ideal grip size if I wear a men's M/L or a cadet L? I know its personal preference but Ive always been contemplating because I feel like I am right in the middle. Also, I feel like a golf pride tour velvet midsize feels slightly smaller compared to like a multi compound midsize
I think the obvious next video should be on swing weight. Thanks!
I recently found that a new set of clubs with midsized grips came back with very low swing weights around C6. Just changing to a standard grip added almost 3 swing weights. A huge difference in the feel of the club!
Those grips must have been 10-12 grams heavier than the standard you replaced them with.👍🏼
I would have liked to see you removing a grip with your air method.
I know I’m late to this party, but what a great video. I do wish they would’ve added wraps of tape into the equation and how many grams each wrap adds. I’ve recently switched from midsized to mcc plus 4 standard and love it. I do wonder what an extra layer of tape or two would feel like from grips size and how it affected swing weight.
Good stuff as always. With regard to grip weight and its effect on swing weight, however, there are some disagreements among fitters. Some look at this in a static way and say, well, adding weight to the grip (say, 4g) requires more head weight (1-2g) to achieve the same swing weight. That might be true in the sense of achieving the same swing weight scale measurement, but that's not the same as FEEL. To a great extent, adding additional weight through a heavier grip is just "tricking" the swing weight scale. I would be willing to bet that the club Matt was swinging with the oversized grip probably felt a fraction lighter, but certainly not 7 or 8 swing weights lighter. Conversely, if a fitter tried to "fix" this problem by adding head weight (it would take about 14 grams!) the club would feel insanely heavy. Swing weight numbers, in short, get distorted very easily by grip weight and that higher (or lower) grip weight doesn't necessarily translate (1 for 1) in feel. Bryson DeChambeau's grips, for example, weigh more 100 grams! It would take 20 grams of added head weight to bring his clubs back to a conventional swing weight. Adding that much head weight would make his clubs un-hittable. And without adding any head weight, you would think adding that much grip weight would make his clubs feel like match sticks. Clearly that's not the case or he would have no way of controlling them. Sorry for the long post, but the idea that there is a 1 for 1 match between swing weight changes and feel is not true, IMO. Would love to hear your take.
Why not do the same test with different wrap quantities (2, 4, 6 etc) instead of different grip sizes. To eliminate the swing weight debate and get to a more pure grip size test
Great video again guys. I learn loads from your content. Keep up the great work 👍
I use standard grips in all my irons - in my wedges standard +1 layer , and midsize in 3 wood and driver . For me it is perfect and comfortable - reasoning is the longer shafts in the driver/3 wood to seems harder to hold on to , and the wedges feel more comfortable a shade bigger
Fascinating video. I would suggest that Winn DriTac Lites could have been used for the jumbo to keep from changing the swingweight. At 33g the SW would move back to the undersized grip. I like the Winn grips and have experimented with the lites and standard and don't have any issue even thought there is 17g difference for same sized grip(??). I will look for a swing weight for your video next. Thanks Fellas!
What I've felt about grips is that the smaller grips tend to speed the spring then the bigger the bring tends to slow the spring affect
this is pure British gobbledygook!
V Interesting with regards swing weight and feel. See so often the spec from OEM's saying D2 etc... it really does depend on the individuals feel, how the flight is in relationship to their desired outcome and where weight needs to be added/changed. Great Video!!
This is really a good break down of weighting and how it affects swing and feel. Excellent.
I think a fitting should start by the grip.
Did mine with John Lawson in Paris who use Doc Wright Balance system and it was a game changer.
Great video, as usual. I have arthritis in my hands. If I want to play golf I must use oversized grips. It’s been about a year since I’ve made the change. Just getting use to them now.
Love all of your stuff! This channel has convinced me to get fitted for all of my clubs going forward
👍👍👍
Approximately how heavy is a layer of tape and how many layers might be required to bulk up a standard grip to a midsize diameter?
Consequently, is tape a better solution if the player wants to minimise the change in swing weight when increasing grip diameter?
Lastly, is the efficacy and durability of the grip affected by stretching it over multiple layers of tape?
Cheers guys.
Keep up the great work!
We'll try to do a detailed series on club building in the future!
I suspect adding tape to build up a standard grip to the same diameter as a midsize grip would add more weight than just replacing the grip. The tape is more dense than the foam like material of the grip (although tape can be made from foam like material too--although that would make it thicker), and weighs more for the same thickness. Tape is probably more useful for increasing the diameter in smaller increments than a full size increase. The solution is to add weight to the club head end to return the club to the same balance (but adds even more weight to the club overall, which could be partially offset with a lighter shaft, and so on). Looking forward to the series on club building!
I think it’s 4 tapes to get to a mid
I just put a Winn oversize wrap on my driver and I absolutely love it. I have a problem with too much grip pressure and the combination of the larger size and the really sticky dritac nearly instantly fixed my grip. That grip will be going on the rest of my clubs on monday.
Patrick Whitehead interesting...what was your issue prior to new grip being put on and results after over sized
Great info, I wish I could try out the grip on the club where I'm getting fit.
Best total build sequence to date & potential other testing/build sequence oversights? ...The grip having been one one of your "Icing on the cake" build components AND "Usually left to customer choice only": What build pieces have the most effect; which order typically produces the quickest & most consistent end/shot consistency result build; was the grip component moved up in your build sequence AND; are there other components that could have more effect than known to date that you plan to more scientifically investigate? GREAT vid & questioning of old beliefs! Thank you & to all who gave the feedback that resulted in & from this video.
I always thought I had long fingers but turns out I have long palms! I bought some midsize master series leather gripmaster grips for my wedges and loved them so much got them on all my clubs ... feel great in the wet or in the heat .... unfortunately mostly in the wet in North of England ... great vid guys👋🏻👋🏻
Getting towards that 10k, great work gentlemen!
Hand size falls inbetween Standard and Midsized. Having a shaft built up and will be trying a Midsize grip for the driver. Being winter, I can get on the sim and experiment with what works best. Will do a 7i as well to see if the 1 degree flat I normally use is no longer required, but if longer irons need to be 2 degrees up instead of the 1 degree I use now since the face would stay more open.
I thought that a four gram weight change had to be in the head to make a one swing weight change.
Wha happens to Matt's shots if you get his Swing weight back to normal and still using the jumbo grip?
Jim Martin this is what I was wondering as well.
Concur.
Exactly! Very informative video, but stopped short of fully addressing the issue. I feel they should have fooled around with the swing weight so it felt good to Matt. They discussed the club balance but didn't demonstrate it. It could very well be that at the end of the day Matt would have preformed better with a larger grip size if the club was balanced to his liking. Also, couldn't manufacturers make larger grips out of lighter materials to reduce the effect on the swing weight?
I got all my grips changed once and picked the wrong grips without knowing it. As I played, every shot I pushed to the right and couldn't figure out why until I noticed I had bought midsize instead of standard. Changed back to standard and poof, my shot was back to normal.
For me the issue of grip size is about my right hand regripping and range of motion. With thicker grips I do not have a gap at the top of the swing with my right hand and re-gripping through the swing is eliminated, where with thinner grips its a real issue. This makes for a more secure and comfortable grip and then a more powerful strike. Far less likely to close the clubface as I regrip and therefore more consistent face management.
Could you revisit this video with the jumbo grip Bryson plays. It is the same weight as a standard grip and not 88 grams as this one in the video. Interested in seeing the ball flights compared.
I have been really looking at grip size over the past 5 years. I've tried undersized, no taper, reverse taper, jumbo reverse taper (Enlow) as well as the JumboMax Wrap and the JumboMax JMX Ultralight.
My thinking is that a lot of comes down to grip size, grip weight, hand size and hand/wrist strength. Furthermore, I believe it depends on what club the player is using. A player hitting a driver is going to apply much more force to the handle, particularly at the top of the swing, than they would with a 9-iron.
I've seen Michael Neff from GEARS show a reduced rate of closure with the JumboMax grips. I think there's some positives from that, but with the heavier JumboMax grips I've seen a lot of players struggle with the high, push miss. The lighter JumboMax grips can get the ball flight more towards the target. My problem with them is that they still launch high. But with a driver, it's probably a very good grip to have because of the size. If you can find a light enough weight, then you have something.
I believe Bryson has had success with the JumboMax grips because he has very strong hands/wrists. But for the average golfer, I think the technology will eventually determine that it's a grip size and grip weight issue along with going from large to smaller grips as one goes from their lowest to highest lofted club.
Im so happy there are other golf nerds out there
This an ongoing search, for factors of swing weight, grip pressure, and feel. I have gone thru five sets. for me it is less taper and 43 grams grip and thank God Winn had them.
Also, the love the dynamics of you two on camera and how you talk TO your viewers and not AT them, if you follow. Really enjoyed my morning watching them. Now out to the range...😉
Thank you, we appreciate that!
I know this is an old video but just curious I have hand issues is there any benefit to going larger or softer. Also curious since I will be switching is it best to stick with one grip up the whole bag
I prefer standard size grips and an extra wrap or two under the right hand. I wear a large cadet glove due to my stubby fingers compared to my hand size.
I live in northeast Ohio . Is there a club champion near me. I would like to get a grip fitting with my own clubs.
I play jumbomax xl, 120g like Bryson Dechambeau. I have medium hands and its lovely! Such control! Please review the Jumbomax also! 😃
Magnus Henricson if you already play the jumbo max and like it, why would you care if they reviewed it?
I'd like to see this revisited and maintain the seeing weight among the grip sizes.
I would logically have thought the grip size fitting should precede the main club fitting process.
Jumbo grips for anyone that wears a 2x glove. Has helped me control the turning of the head.
So the natural follow up would be for you to then do the same test, but balancing out the swing weights.
Come on....
I feel like standard are just a bit too small but can’t decide if I wanna try standard with some wraps or midsize.
I've recently made the switch to midsize and I noticed my spin increased significantly, like James experienced
I got big hands so I bought midsize grips, but find the standard grips just flow more with my swing
My dad has small hands but his arthritis is quiet bad with standard grips. Would it be worth it for him to try oversize or even jumbo grips?
What about same swingweight vs different diameter grips. Add lead weights to the head maybe.
Had a couple comments about that, we will hopefully add that to a future video
I have tested this quite a bit - and for me, it definitely matters. I’m “in between” std and mid-sized. Naturally you’d think std + 2-3 wraps. But I hit the ball straighter with mid-sized.
Can you do a video on weighting clubs? How to determine amount, location, etc?
But what happens when you get oversize grip and the weight is under 50 gr = super !!
Best one ive seen on grip size ever. Especially regarding the swing weight changes. Nice work. Ive changed down a size to undersized but made them taper-less so they are the same size/completely even in my hands top to bottom. Best grip setup ive ever had. The control now on choke down shots is unbelievable. .
I've never considered the affect of maybe having the wrong grip size till I watched this video. Hmm.. i may have to look more into this with my clubs. On a side note though, I wonder what the affect to his shots would have been if this was a blind test and he didn't know which grip size was on the club.
Lol when that black and white and music kicked in I thought he was going to hole one
The challenge with blades is getting to the ball in rough grass when the ball is sitting low, a bad lie. This situation has a tendency to throw the bladed club head off angle just before it strikes the ball resulting in a less than desired ball flight compared to the same situation when using a cavity backed much more tech modern club head The question is, can this be compensated for by the player through technique? In my experience, I played a very old set of Wilson Staff blades as my first set of clubs and later switched to Tommy Armour 845 Sliver Scots and would say that the cavity backed club heads perform a little more forgiving in these situations however, by using a technique where I would ensure that I used a punch type strike when using the bladed clubs, hitting down through the ball and not catching too much grass before striking the ball, I could improve ball flight when in deeper grass using a bladed club head. I did not improve my handicap when I switched to cavity backed heavier club heads.
I've been playing for quite some time and I'm a 3 handicap. My tendency is to have a closed clubface on average of around 2* degrees at impact and my path is fairly close to 0 I'm around 1-2 degrees either way. I have been trying to correct this for a few years but with no luck. Would prefer the clubface be 2* degrees open. Would go up in grip size help correct this problem?
For years I struggled with an occasional viscous hook drive...I'm talking two fairways over!!! My father put an oversize grip on his driver...and I used it for an entire round. I did not miss a single fairway. I immediately put one on my driver...and it cured my hook...literally overnight! I don't have that problem with my other clubs...so for now I'm keeping them the same. I think the OS grips keep your wrists from over rotating. At least...that's what it feels like to me.
I have the same experience. My hybrids were hooking really bad with a midsized grip - but when I used the Jumbomax (small) on all three hybrids - they go straight most of the time. Very rarely do I hit hooks with these now.
light jumbo size grips 45 gm would have been interesting re swing weight
This is interersting, as I got fit with standards, then added plus 4 grips. My biggest gripe is that my clubs feel too light at take away, and I tend to rush. Perhaps this was underestimated by my fitter... anyways - 4 years on and I am smarter about fitting so I won't make the same mistake again!
I'm kind of confused, for instance, Tour velvets have a .58,.60.and .62 core size on standard sized grips. So this test would apply to a smaller sized core on your grip going on a larger size of butt on your shaft, but the smaller core on the undersized grip would just stretch over the wrong over sized butt of shaft basically making it a standard size again?
Winn Dri Tac Lite make bigger grips that are significantly lighter than grips of the same size . 23 grams for midsize and 33 for oversize
Agreed, I use Dri Tac 2.0 grips on my driver and driving iron for that reason.