"MFJJ Debated Ranch Fairy" MFJJ x Tim Connor
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- Опубликовано: 28 янв 2024
- "MFJJ Debated Ranch Fairy" MFJJ x Tim Connor - Welcome to the Fireside Chat Podcast MFJJ of @podiumarcher3447 and @TimConnor13 hang out and chat all things archery, on this episode we talk about the recent discussion between MFJJ and Ranch Fairy and how bow tune contributes to the energy equation. #archery #podcast
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After watching Brandon's video and this one here's my Letterman-esque top 10 list of points and takeaways from my perspective. As well as a free bump in RUclips algorithm
1. What is a tuned bow? Is it one that is within factory spec and properly timed, or is it one that's been manipulated, cams shimmed, yolks twisted, or whatever, taking out of factory spec to shoot a particular arrow?
2. KE at launch, from the same bow, remains relatively the same, within a pretty small window, no matter the arrow weight and a heavier arrow will maintain more KE down range. A faster lighter projectile has more atmosphere pushing against it than a heavier slower one. It's high school physics and Newtons Laws of Motion.
3. FOC is an aeronautical term that translates to arrow flight. Higher FOC equates to more stable flight. On a plane this also means it takes more to change course, moot point on an arrow since it's going in one direction.
4. Time to target does not matter, at all. You simply can't predict what the animal is going to do. But go ahead and keep on believing you can. Using the law of averages I still bet more misses happen with sub 500gn arrows within 40yds then heavier arrows. An arrow of any weight simply isn't, and will most likely never be, fast enough to beat the animals reaction
5. You kept talking about how Troy hunts pigs but you're I think you're missing the point. If you can get through a pig, you can get through a deer.
6. Aim small, miss small. You could aim to double lung and hit guts, or aim for the heart and hit double lung.
7. It's evident that you have watched very few of Troys videos. Based on comments made on this and in Brandon's video.
8. Not everyone shoots 60 to 70lbs with 29in+draw. But those that do are the 1st ones to "well ack-shually" and denounce the heavier arrows
9. If you ever hunted with aluminum arrows you have most likely used a 500gn arrow. For example an Easton 2016 at 28in with standard insert, old school plastic fletch, a glue on nock and 100gn point is over 500gn and that's equivalent to a .500 spine shaft.
10. Build a heavier (550-650), high FOC (17-25%) arrow and use it for more than a cup of coffee. Take it out for a season, or half a season, you can always go back. Troy has stated many times he used the "industry standard" 450gn arrow with all the various broad heads which is what led him to try the heavy stuff. The difference is his anecdotal evidence is backed by a 30 year+ ongoing study. A study that in its infancy legalized bowhunting on basically an entire freaking continent. Who else can make that claim?
Keep drinking the kool aid.
I have greatly enjoyed delving back into speed and seeing the forgiveness that comes with that. However, I do have a bow that is perfectly tuned for a 600 grain arrow. It's for public land, eastern treestand hunting, max shot is probably 30 yards. Using a single bevel two blade. When you arent seeing many deer and have no idea what kind of shot you're gonna get to put food on the table, why not build a howitzer(or as I call it a Lizzo cuz its black and heavy af), and TAKE ADVANTAGE of being a close quarter eastern treestand hunter. But with that said if I had to shoot past 20/30 absolutely I'm bringing my speed bow. It's all relative. Even as slow as my heavy arrow compound is it's still 60fps faster than my hardest pulling longbow and recurve. It's all relative.
The time to target at 70yrds between an arrow flying at 290fps and 260fps is 0.008 seconds. Why do we argue these heavy vs light arrow? Using a 430gr or 520gr arrow? I believe the better argument is do you have acceptable arrow trajectory. Also, a heavier arrow is quieter out of your bow.
I would also argue, that no fighter wants to take a punch standing still. So they roll away to reduce the impact. Elk hear the shot and move (essentially the same thing). I side with an arrow 450-500gr, as a "planB", as Troy describes it. Arguing how much an animal can move in 0.008sec is nothing but opinion.
I have tuning equipment because of the Ranch Fairy. I found Podium archery because of the impact that the Ranch Fairy had on me understanding arrow flight. They are differences in opinion. Yes, learn to tune your bow. Both Ranch Fairy and Podium Archery have forever changed the way I prepare for bow hunting. Both should credited for making us better, more lethal hunters
well said
Also the chance an animal moves at the sound of the bow at 70 vs 30 is far less unless he's onto you already.
Your calculation is wrong. Not that it's a significant amount of time but the difference is 0.08 seconds not 0.008 seconds. I'd be interested to know what the speed degradation is over that distance based on the initial speed and weight of the arrow. I don't think either arrow is going to reach the target at the same speed it left the bow but maybe a heavier arrow retains more of it's initial speed?
You're right, I added an extra zero. But it is still less than 1/10 of a second. Anyone who argues how much an animal will/could move is just an opinion.
Yes, a heavier arrow is slower, but also quieter, holds it's speed, and has less drop than a lighter arrow. But it does affect trajectory (which down side is worse, is opinion also). The heavier arrow also will have less drift in heavy winds. But IMO, and it's just an opinion, a heavier arrow will penitrate better and hopefully help make up for variables outside my control.
With all that said, you better be shooting a really good broadhead, and it needs to fly straight.
@wayneswendsen8310 drop is trajectory. So no, a heavier arrow does not have less drop. Actually there drop is the same. Drop is always the same no matter the weight. Weight does not affect drop over distance, only speed does. Maybe you mean less momentum is lost with a heavy arrow over distance
For the average hunter who has issues with hitting deer too far back, could it be because they are afraid of hitting the shoulder?
Correct, the average hunter is hitting far back because that’s where they are aiming.
Tim looks just like Bob McKenzie here, if he started calling you a Hoser I would die laughing!!! 🤣🤣🤣
So much valuable information being discussed. I’ve missed back, hit shoulder with not enough penetration, and most recently missed a beauty of a 10 point due to heavy setup and deer reaction time.
IMO best budget bow in the $600 price point is the Bear Resurgence RTH package. Comes with everything you need and can upgrade components as you go. Thanks fellas!
Most miss back.
Mind game. Afraid of hitting shoulder bone.
Troys philosophy and he's gradually proving it. Aim for heart with an arrow/broadhead combination that will bust through.
Now gain confidence to shoot for that heart.
Since me and my son started watching you we started doing our own arrows and working on our bow we're just saving up for the press and draw board thank you guys it helped our shooting and I get to spend more time with my son and that's priceless God bless and piece out
Unpopular opinion: Time to target and blood trails are the two most overrated factors considered in archery hunting setups. Both have their place, but neither should be near the top in considerations for your overall setup.
On moving animals, 250fps and above setups don't vary outside of a lethality until after 30yds. 30-40yds is arguably no mans land, but lighter setups are louder and highest chance of lethality is in lungs, where a heavier arrow may miss more, but window of lethality is bigger due to being able to aim farther forward into the shoulder. 40+yds, same window of lethality applies, but lighter arrows shed speed/momentum faster at distance (lethality drops faster) and they are effected by the elements (wind/rain) much more. May miss by less, but require a far more accuracy and skill for a lethal shot. Heavy arrow has a larger window of lethality to miss in and is more accurate outside of perfect conditions.
Blood trails are far too inconsistent to be a reliable and important factor in a setup or broadhead choice for anyone. Not even close in importance to reliability, durability, and accuracy of broadheads.
RF is a very useful and entertaining resource to the community and I have been following him since I started archery. He is only brash because he takes so much heat from people who don't care to actually listen to everything he has to say. I watch a lot of youtube archery content and the vast majority of people that have issues with him, have egos they can't get around. I mean, he was invited to discuss archery and arrow setups on a podcast and the host couldn't even bother to research him or his videos beforehand. That was a prominent figure in the community doing that, so it's not surprising when non-prominent community figures are doing so as well.
RF helped me a lot when i first got into bow hunting. I had a bad pro shop and my tune was off and my arrows were very light 400 spine with low foc. I emailed troy and he actually personally wrote back and we carried a conversation. I explained to him that i had had no pass throughs at all on the 3 whitetails i had taken. He suggested a build around 520 grains with 225 up front. This changed my world. Clean pass throughs on everything. Since then i found a great shop and have settled on a well tuned bow with 475 grain arrows at 16% foc and a 125 sb head.
I am probably the only dude from South Florida that gets home and can't wait to listen. For me, I like the randomness of the pod. Always centered around archery, but every now and then you get the stories like MFJJ almost flipping down logging road.. Keep it up fellas, love to meet you boys one day.
I’m on the treasure coast just north of Palm beach. You’re not the only one!!!
It's crazy that all the light arrow guys swear their arrows go through all the animals they shoot, but only when it's not on video. On video 3/4 of the arrow is sticking out and nock pointing left. Every time. I almost never see videos of a 412gn arrow sticking in the dirt clean passed through.
Love the vid and convo fellas. I couldn't agree more about working on your own equipment. I've gotten better in all aspects of archery because of what I've learned from MFJJ, Dudley, and Josh Bowmar, etc. Josh is right. To be great at archery, you have to know your equipment completely. Keep'um comin'!
I think the Darton consequence is the best budget bow right now.Bear has the alaskan xt and the whitetail maxx that are very nice also.
Love Mondays watching you two. Thanks for another great podcast
Love this. Needs to be a weekly thing! Lol
What is certain is that you can't argue with the data on what happens when an arrow hits an animal. The Ashby foundation has an unprecedented data set and until someone else gathers something similar you can't refute it. Troy has the leg up on that.
Now pass the Kool-Aid
Troys conversation includes the weight becasue he is a proponent of shooting animals further forward inside of the "vital V" On a whitetail straight up the front leg aiming on the lower 1/3 of the chest cavity. This increases the likelyhood of a more lethal shot and decreases the chances of getting too far back and into the guts. However, it also increases the chance of impacting heavier bones and he wants the arrow to carry enough mass (more mass = more energy) to break those bones and continue through the animal. He also has a very interesting video on speed erosion downrange between light arrows and heavy arrows. Heavier arrows lose less speed over distance due to having more momentum. I really liked your discussion and look forward to other collaborations if you guys are able to get back together. The only way to learn is to have these discussions and perform testing. Keep up the great content!
Yeah and that lightweight arrow may slow enough for that to make sense at about the 250 yard mark. I’ve broke both shoulders on elk with 450grain arrows and mechanical broadheads. I’ve never had a penetration issue using lightweight arrows.
Both humerus knuckles? Maybe both scapulas. The scapulas aren't the problem. They are thin and fairly soft as far as bones go.
The number one thing Troy preaches is perfect arrow flight. He also says to make sure your bow is factory spec and rest is squared. Troy does shoot extremely heavy arrows but he says to try to atleast get to 500-550grains. Now on to the broadhead, a single bevel razor sharp head will out preform a mechanical. Just look at the reaction of the animal. One shot with mechanical will run like hell, one shot with razor sharp single bevel will bound a few yards then stop/ walk. Your average/ 90% of guys do not have the skills to shoot past 40 yards. Personally I want a 525-575 grain arrow with a 2 blade.
After hearing you make the statement about intermittent fasting, I've decided to give it a try. I'm 6'2" and currently weigh 220. I need to get that down below 190. I'm beginning tomorrow by skipping breakfast and eating a good lunch and dinner.
I still think the bear Alaskan xt. I agree about the older bows. FX needed shorter draw, left handed, love it now.
Bear Whitetail Maxx or Alaskan XT. Build one of those. I built my Whitetail Maxx for about $1000:
$600 bow
$105 Trophy Ridge Hotwire sight
$50 Trophy Ridge Sync dropaway rest
$150 Trophy Ridge front and side stabilizers
$20 wrist sling
$925 total
I have 4 dozen Easton Axis arrows that were practically free from when I used to work at a couple of archery shops.
Edit: I made a math error. LOL
I agree that learning g to work on and tune your gear is paramount. I do all my own bow work. I don’t make strings though. The familiarity builds confidence in my gear. I know everything intimately and when something changes I know instantly.
I hunt primarily from a treestand for whitetail. I’ve had most poor shots from hitting high shoulder. Since those instances, I’ve gone to a fixed blade with about an added 50 grain arrow. I feel like you’re better off missing forward with a fixed blade, and larger cut mechanical for misses further back.
This is the truth. Like everything, there are tradeoffs.
Great video again guys, very glad you brushed upon the older bows and parts availability , not everyone can buy the latest bow every year , cheers
Shot placement and speed. Not crazy speed, but average. 225 lbs whitetail, 19 yards. 450 grain 5mm arrow. Killed everything with it. 60lbs 27.5 draw. Tried heavy, just doesn’t give me confidence. Faster arrow gives me more piece of mind
My setup is exactly the same. I tried weights on deer from 365 up to 510gr. 445 gr is what I shot this year. 420-450 gr is the best weight for me and Midwest whitetail.
I shot 505 grain arrows for the last 3 years, zipper straight through an elk at 60 yards and shots tons of 3d events, for my draw length it's actually hard to get arrows lighter than 500 grains
Love what you bring to a community that wants to learn and improve their equipment. I've learned so much and thoroughly enjoy tinkering with my bows. It's disappointing that we have so much emotion amongst the hunting/shooting family. We should be happy there are other like-minded people protecting what we enjoy.
Troy seems to fall back on physics, then pull results that cater to his agenda. In the most recent content it is stated; "everything is a trade off". Then the entire video is used to show how one type of arrow set up/system is the best possible in all situations. It always has more momentum, at every yardage, in every instance. Statements are made that "real" hunters use this system because they are better somehow. They have more experience, etc etc.
They call my arrow a twizzler stick. Hmmm, I'm shooting a 250 spine at well under 500gr and approx 15% foc. You don't need a light spine to have an arrow that is at an appropriate weight. So if they shoot a 300 spine arrow that is built up to 700gr, that is somehow stiffer than my set-up?
I'm going to set up an "adult arrow" this season and keep a couple in my quiver. If I don't have any branches or small shooting lanes, if the animal is completely relaxed, and at a short range I may send one.
If I'm faced with the nerves of shooting a target buck, my eastern stand locations are tight with fleeting shooting lanes, and I need to make a lazer shot that will absolutely penetrate more than necessary ethically harvesting the animal... then I'm going to use what is best suited for my hunt which happens to be exactly what you are teaching.
Thank you.
Everyone focuses on the grains lol. The statement of ashby has been “go as heavy as you can with a trajectory that you are still happy with.” 650 is just the bone breaking threshold that all bows across all platforms have done better breaking heavy bone at 650.
Good observations about used bows, condition and warranty. I bought a intermediate bow new just for those reasons. Shoot every day just for relaxation and fun, hunt elk and blacktail and shooting back of the lungs due to movement is my most concern. Keep my range within 30 yards to lessen time on target. 480 gr arrow. Good podcast, thanks.
Love my Lift 33, hate the stock grip. I’ve tried them all, and bought the Total Peep grip for this bow, and now I’m replacing the Bee Reals and side plates on all my Mathew’s bows! Josh, you need to bring them into your website, to include their peep sights. Love them!!!!
I've settled in the 475-525gr arrow for Midwest whitetail private land, 40 and in treestand stuff. Both sighted in at 20y, my 525gr arrow is only 4-5" lower than my 420gr arrow at 60y. Evoke 31 67#, 29.5", gas ghost strings, I'm running around 275fps on a 525gr arrow. Arrow is X-Impact .300, steel focos, 20gr weight, 4-fletch tac driver vanes on a reflective wrap, with iron will 125gr SB with bleeder, and a lighted nock. The arrow is just practically silent, and shooting that weight makes the bow practically silent. They just don't usually duck, even at 40y.
I’m at 500 grains with an iron will single bevel. It be shot 2 bucks in last two years that got hit and didn’t run. One walked off and died and the other walked 20’ got wobbly and dropped
@@beforethehunt absolutely! They jump when it goes through them, make a small circle and look around for the bee that stung them, then walk off and collapse.
I was looking for a bow that was easy to work on and learn to build myself. The Bear Alaskan XT fit the budget. Has some flagship features in a midline bow. The picatinny sight and rest feature was surprising to see on this bow. I like these sessions Tim keep up the good work!
Some good points about light arrows as stated in Bergy Bowsmith's article from 12/19/23. Need to state that for light arrows, arrow flight is KEY. Heavy arrows hide some of the momentum loss. I'd link Bergy's article, but I have a feeling you've seen it.
Shoutout bergy!
Tim my wife says you look like an orange smirf without the beard! haha time to grow it back. Good work fellas!
More like a pumpkin 🎃😅😂🤣😜
@@anthonyforfare7223 🤣
Josh could you do a short video on how you strip prep and refletch arrows
I switched to trad because I got so sick of all the moving parts on my compound. Love the simplicity of trad. Yes I’m giving up speed and distance, but I’m having a blast!
I am 51 years old and run a shop with my oldest guy 32. Well he got me into hunting last year with a crossbow. We decided to switch to compound this year and bought our first bows in Nov of 23 so we have a year to learn. I would really like to thank you guys for all the free tips. If I didn’t live I Tn I would love to come and train with Awsome guys.
On the point on mid level bows, I think you have to put the Elite Terrain in that conversation. It's an incredible bow at its price point and incredibly easy to adjust for a new archer. I shot the Terrain and a Torrex to decide which one I wanted to buy and the Terrain just felt like a more solid, higher quality bow. I'm blown away by that bow for what I paid for it. And it ran me about $1100 for the bow, whisker biscuit, sight, stabilizer and a dozen arrows to get me shooting.
It is a good bow
This is the best discussion I have seen. I wish Troy would have been there also. I don't see it as "two sides" as much as "more information". So many people misrepresent what Troy says and does and armed with the right information AND individual circumstance, one can make the right choice for themselves.
That being said, IMHO, the MOST significant point discussed by MFJJ (by far), and it will be overlooked by most, is the emphasis on TUNING your our bow and UNDERSTANDING what that is. I am constantly amazed in this day and age, the amount of folks who don't know even the basics and are intimidated to even try. To me, that is a MUST and way more important that heavy, light, fast, slow, FOC, trajectory...etc. Thanks.
I just mailed you guys a picatinny adaptor I made for the Mathews. I’m sure I could make the Bowtech version if I could get a sample sight with their intergraded system.
Love my bang for the buck bow… picked up an inline 5 for 650(shop liquidation sale for incoming models)
Can you adjust wheel lean on the Amplify?
Ok you guys just hit on something that I have been questioning if you put after market strings on and if you do the wheeling on your own bow does that void my warranty? Because I’m not a dealer
So to comment on the Vital-V™ shot placement since you would be aiming low on the animal already if/when the animal jumps the string it will typically move your shot higher into the foward lobes of the lungs where the larger airways and higher blood pressure arteries are and that doesn't sound like its a bad thing
I need to see this debate!
No you don't. I couldn't take it.
There was no debate. Just click-bait.
I have a Mathews Monster from 06 and I have been debating if I should just spend the money to get the new Lift 33. I REALLY like the monster and it still gets down!!! But it's 17 years old...... What is everyone's opinion on upgrading to the lift????
Hey Josh and Tim. Wondering if I can pick your brain a second. I’m getting a new bow this season because quite honestly I couldn’t like the bear legit any less for a guy like myself (6’ 2”. 29.5 draw length). My problem mainly was my peep was maxed out and I constantly found myself reaching to fit the sight in my peep. I know I want a longer axle to axle bow for this season. I was wondering what your main recommendation is for an intermediate level bow for hunting. Thanks!
15:50 gold 👌💯
I agree with the picatinny adapter. But not just for the core system also bridge lock and even a adapter for a side mount bows.
Am I crazy? Didn't RF give a presentation at an Elk Shape camp back in the day?
Yes
To test the vane penetration difference, FEATHERS, would be the best baseline in the testing medium, just because they fold flat. Maybe a piece of thin suede leather would be a good vane penetration test medium? This would make a killer video too. I’d bet people would love learning about those differences.
You hit a couple of good points. The Fairy guy is coming from a point of relative ignorance in bow tuning and trying to help the average archer who has little tuning knowledge or equipment be able to their bow to shoot well enough to be useful. This is a valiant cause, especially for guys in rural areas. You mentioned that you want everyone to be able to tune their own bow. That is very needed and correct. I recently took my bow to a guy to install the peep and d loop. When he was finished he had my rest angled up and back to get the arrow level and my d loop would slide on the string. I went home and ordered a bow press. There is just no other option for many of in rural areas. So, thanks for the content and keep trying to understand each other.
I switched from mechanical to fixed two years ago bc i wasn't getting good penetration and had some deflections hitting ribs with rages and some sevr, everything was dying but i was only getting one hole 90 percent of the time, i shoot 27.5 and 70 lb i just dont get these same results shooting whitetails with mechanicals
I’ve shot both, lighter side and heavier side and fixed and mechanical, and have had success with both, on penetration and recovery, so basically it comes down to what fits your shooting style and what is most effective for what your wanting to harvest.
Also i prefer the arrow get to the vitals and stay and bounce around and pulling back out as they run tearing up all kinds of vitals vs just a single small wound channel
Brilliant podcast
Kinetic energy equation is the most important deciding factor. A good overall balance of all factors seems obvious to me. I agree the broadhead is the MOST important factor for sure though
Bad shots back. This year I misjudged quartering away and hit one lung and saw gut hanging out the exit. He fell over at 120yrds. Whew. Three blade mechanical reaper. 1 3/4”. I have fixed blades also. 457 grains.
Question for MFJJ, do you consider heavy as total arrow weight or grains per pound? I shoot 30/78 with a 525gr arrow and feel like it’s a “mid weight” arrow
Most of my failures have been a deer ducking. Some of them are bad hits, a few have been shaft, broadhead , or insert failure. High speed, durable steel broadheads and steel inserts is the way to go. I have learned to buy 125 gr heads and nothing lighter. Invest your weight in the business end. Cut your arrow short and put a lighted nock in. Get a stiff light durable shaft with a thick wall. I use 4 Rayzr feathers, saves weight and increases initial velocity.
My favorite shaft is the RIP.
Been there done that with heavy arrows, light aluminum broadheads, ultra light thin wall arrows, Vanes. For all the effort we put into bow hunting, it’s not worth it to choose a lesser performing arrow.
Yea i bought a old carbon element g3 and parts are next to impossible to find but i lucked out knowing the owner. Never buy sight unseen and never buy used if you don't know anything about bows.
It's a few years old but I shoot a PSE Brute NXT that has been a very good bow for me. Granted I am coming from a cheap Chinese sanlida dragon x8. I have changed my string/cables and put a nicer sight and rest on it but the bow shoots very well and is shooting 488g arrows 268fps at 28.5".
I can honestly say that since I got a press and draw board and learned how to tune my Hoyt myself, I’m a much better archer. I’ve learned so much about the mechanics behind the entire system and it’s made it much easier to identify and remedy any issues that arise. Now I’m just dicking around with arrows, shooting a 481gr rip tko @ 285fps and just ordered rip xv’s to play with.
Yes your absolutely right about processed food all my dads family we're tall and in shape I was when I was young but I got 200 to lose this year and I will, love y'all's content God bless and vote for our country
In a month I'm looking for a used or new barebow $1000 ss34 or ethos or something like that
I registered my RX4 turbo as soon as I bought it new. Was an old stock bow but brand new
I happen to be one of the guys that happen to have multiple setups due to the fact that my bow Elite Impulse 31" holds a tune rather well and has been through hell. Do i know how to tune my bow, no i do not. My tech goes through my bow yearly to "maintain" the tune. I currently shoot a super heavy arrow, however it also shoots multiple setups well, due to the tune of the bow. I have definitely seen a decrease in recovery rates, due to the arrival time of the arrow. I will definitely be decreasing arrow weight this year.
I've shot a flagship for 20 years. I just bought a darton consequence as a ground blind bow. I love my revolt x and will most likely either get a core ss or the sequel 33 for my flagship model and longer range bow.
Little late on commenting, but my experience with bow hunting whitetail from 10-40yards I've only had 1 duck the arrow this one was 30yards with around a 380gr total arrow weight out of a diamond edge at 70lbs with 28.5 draw had a 3 deer lost from low penetration when hitting front shoulder last year I got a phase4 (same weight and draw as the diamond) and went to an iron will single bevel total weight being 503gr purposely shot a deer in the front shoulder at 25yds to test the setup and got a pass thru. There is a lot of factors on every animal but with my life experiences I believe a little heavier setup with a quality broadhead is awesome and I do think there is a point where going to heavy is unessecary.
I have seen some reviews of the Sanlida Dragon 10 and people were surprised how well they shot.
Lots of great topics, excellent conversation.
I believe you pay more for what you get with a 1,300$ bow vs a mid price or even budget bow. At over a 1,000$ your just buying status and privilege.
It’s the American way.
Budget Build Bow. Honestly my first bow was a single cam bear. Timber 2 I think. I thought it grouped very well for what it was. Shot it for about 4 years. The best group at 80 was about a 3-3.5in group. Basic 7 pin and a sidebar from trophy ride. Out of the door I think it was 600
My opinion is guys shooting further is time to target and whitetail guys 30 yrds and in are shoulder and in my experience as pa whitetail hunter ive never had a bad hit from animal reaction but i have lost 2 in 10yrs from shoulder shot but i still shoot 460grn 166 with beast head and rarely have problems
Taking Tim's invite to share. I've had deer "duck" and elk "whirl" significantly enough to change the point of impact enough that I never retrieved the animal and I'm guessing/hoping most of them lived based on missing vitals because of their movement. These were both with my lighter and heavier arrow setups, didn't seem to matter in the end. My draw length is short and my bow is not fast so I'm naturally limited to my viable shooting distances based on my own imposed limitations. I have a few thoughts for Josh & Tim on arrow weight. I'm no physicist or mathematician but I do subscribe to both and believe that some common sense can be derived using them. I take the point of view that a heavier arrow will absorb more energy from the bow than a lighter arrow will; in the case of the lighter arrow the "relative excess" energy stays in the bow to eventually leave it through vibration. This will affect the noise and feel of the bow in the hand. A lighter arrow will leave the bow faster but because it's moving faster it will also experience more force in the opposite direction causing it to slow faster and more significantly than an arrow that is heavier which leaves the bow slower but has less of those same forces pushing back against it. Taking those things into account I tune my bow and my arrows to find the point of diminishing returns. I like to take the arrow weight as high as I can stand the amount of drop I get at my self imposed shooting distances. To me this is where my bow is performing as close to it's most efficient as I can get it at my draw length, weight and arrow choice. All the debate aside, knowing your equipment and your proficiency with it is the key. You should know yourself and have confidence in your equipment no matter what your setup is. If you get unlucky and lose an animal then you can revisit your shot and equipment and then decide if anything needs to change or if it was just that the animal did exactly what they're designed to do which is to stay alive and they won that one. Thanks for the time you all dedicate to sharing your knowledge and experience to make us all better archers and hunters.
Majority of my experience leans towards bad shot placement and animal movement. I've subscribed to MFJJ ideas where lighter, faster arrow goes in my quiver with a kudu point. I've had great success and one issue with that setup. Could have been a freak instance, but not worried enough to change my setup this year.
I myself am looking at the Bear Adapt for its price point. I watched Tim's video he did awhile back. Was very impressed on how it shot.
@josh&tim check out the Prime Ronan on the mid range bow
Budget bow: bear Alaskan, built one as a budget bow. Added some up grades like dampeners and the pse roller guard. Fast little bow. Just torquey due to reflex. Notice it at 50 yards and beyond. Retail $500
Then the Martin DSX more at the flagship level but $799 retail from what I hear. Very stable and good aiming bow. Something different
You guys should test out the aerovane 2!! If only for how quiet it is. I'd be happy to send a few to test.
$1000 Bow Build:
Darton Consequence - Hamskea Primer - .. hard to find a sight with 3rd axis under 250$.
I think those two items will be hard to top in this project.
I am excited to see the $1000 bow builds and comparisons to flagships.
Most of my shots on whitetail have been 10-30 yards in thick woods. Usually even though I have an idea, I am judging range by eye, which in those low light conditions at dawn and dusk can be a bit tricky. Also, with public deer being so skittish or just hunting the rut when deer could take off after a scent of a doe at any moment, I went lighter and lighter with my arrows over the last few years. I want my arrows shooting flat so if I mess up on the distance, it is still going to be fatal. I am also a 26in draw length want that speed that my draw length doesn't afford me. A good sharp, cut on contact, durable fix blade is what I have gone to for my broadheads.
Ranch Fairy is very smart, and I did watch a video of his with the Hunting Public where he did say to go with the lightest possible grain per inch arrow with the right spine. I think part of his arrow weight a lot of is because he shoots such high FOC arrows that are arguably not worth the added FOC beyond a certain point. Also, a lot of his weight comes from how he builds his arrows, not the shafts. He uses four vanes and a wrap usually I believe. And throw on his 200 grain broadheads and that's like 225+ grains right there not including the shaft/inserts.
When it comes to working within a budget and buying new, Bear simply has the most options and most price points. They also make enough changes and updates through their range that their products don't seem as stale as Diamond or Mission.
I dried fired an old mathews outback once. Scared the hell out of me, but the only thing that happened, the level fell out of the sight lol
As far as the non flagship bow, I have an elite omnia and an ss34 now but before that, I had a diamond deploy sb which is the same thing as the carbon Zion. I loved that bow for the price. I've had a couple PSEs at similar price points and the diamond was much better in my opinion. Also the elite basin could be one to consider.
I put a single bevel straight through the heart of a medium size buck. There was snow on the ground. I found hair and some small amount of blood at the impact sight. Then nothing for 20yrds then I found the deer. If it wasn't for the fresh tracks in the snow I'm not sure if I would have found it. The area has a few small streams crossing the property an lots of low briars
The center of this argument is....... What is necessary (for a bad shot/Plan B) to improve your recovery?
Troy feels that bone is the biggest obstacle and his set-up improves that outcome.
Josh feels that missed arrow placement due to speed or deer movement is the biggest issue.
***What would determine the "right" answer or "winner" of this argument, is: Who looses more deer/animals based upon your set-up?***
Then you have to consider your choice of kill zone. A heavy, single bevel is better at a bone hit. A large cutting diameter is better with a gut shot. Where do you miss or what causes you to loose an animal?
Troy "cares" about a proper bow tuning and arrow flight, but feels the average hunter probably doesn't have the ability or access to press their bow.
On the Kinetic Energy Device; what Troy is saying is whether your bow is tuned perfectly or not, it is still going to release that same amount of stored energy, no matter what. However, a properly tuned bow is more efficient at maintaining that energy throughout the arrow's flight.
I got the Bear adapt plus
Tim, you mentioned there should be a hunting news podcast. Check out Pinchpoint hosted by Justin from bowhunt or die.
Where can I listen the the live discussion with the ranch fairy?
Brandon McDonald's channel
I had a small deflection on a branch this year when shooting a whitetail doe at 12ish yards I think it was. It went right through the scapula and stuck in the offside shoulder. I got around 12 inches of penetration she was dead pretty fast. I don’t feel super comfortable going light weight but definitely dislike going over 500 grains. Dead is dead but I don’t want to hit a shoulder with a mechanical.
68lbs 27 inch draw length using the Hoyt Z1S and an Easton axis with brass HIT attached to a sevr 1.5 total weight 475 grains.
I’d do the same thing with a micro hades one time with an older Hoyt and had a pass through that broke both shoulders. Deer was just as dead and ran about the same distance.
Team MFJJ here but I do question sometimes the time to target arguement in a whitetail hunt 40 yards and in. Yes faster arrow gets there quicker BUT how much quicker. Shouldn't be hard to quantify with the right tech. Then take some videos of an animal ducking and see how much the POI would change in that time with a slow vs fast arrow.
I know there's other variables but simple math would say an arrow traveling 300 fps would reach 50 yards at the same time that a 270fps arrow reaches 45 yards, I picture every video I've seen of deer jumping the string and if the arrow was another 5, 10, 15, feet further downrange at impact I feel it would make a big difference.
If you looking at a budget bow I recommend an Xpedition
So honest question rifle calibers for deer , elk and bear?
Every bow has a sweet spot for arrow weight it's just finding the right weight for the bow that will give you both the speed an KE that you want
Any conversation regarding building the nicest bow for a grand should include the Sanlida Dragon 10. I've shot most of the bows that have came out every year for a while now and it is definitely on par with all of the flagship bows or better than some and is $500. I own a PSE EVO XF30, an EVO EVL 34, and a Pearson Atlas currently as well just in case someone says I only think that because I don't know any better. I also had an RX4 and Carbon Air Stealth in the last couple of years too.
I would love to see you guys get your hands on a Bear Alaskan XT, and Prime Ronan.
It goes back to anatomy. There is a lot more chance of hitting the liver or guts than the shoulder bone just due to the size of the parts. Unless you are aiming far forward which is how most of the Fairy Ranch crowd is aiming.
Do a review on the salidia dragon their flagship bow. Comes with a ton of features. Its a 600$ bow. But i would like to hear your thoughts on it.
I lost 4 animal shots too far back. Had another shot was a range error and barely recovered the bull.
These experiences have led me to shoot the fastest I can get a quiet fixed blade to fly for elk. These had let me to short/compact, solid vented fixed blades to reduce surface area. For antelope and Mule Deer I'm 100% in on the mechanical train. Whitetail is short distance for me - larger fixed for me there.