I grew up in a narcissistic home. My mother is the narcissist. My dad is the enabler. It was awful. The emotional, mental abuse for 37 years. Physical abuse when I was a child. I wasn't allowed to have think for myself, I couldn't have a favorite color, book, song, outfit, hairstyle, ect. I wasn't allowed to have feelings. If I cried, I would be told "quit feeling sorry for yourself" If I was happy, " what do you have to be happy about". Nothing was okay. It kills you inside. I really felt dead inside. I was the scapegoat in my family. Everything I did was my fault. My mom blamed me for everything that went wrong in her life and my sisters lives. I had to cut off my family. I am thankful that I did. I am thankful Lord God saved me! That I have a heavenly Father that loves me, even when my mom and dad hate me.
It's sad and I am sorry and I agree God loves us and we cannot even begin to conceive of the depth and breadth and height of his love for us... hold on to your faith in his love for you.
Sorry..my sons mom Is like this and this sounds like her. Everything is always wrong with someone but not her. I left thar bs but I worry about my kid with her. I have to tread lightly with what I say anytime, because she will block Me and I cant even talk to him. Seeing you say this concerns me for his future
Relate.....my Mother was a narcissistic abuser ... controlled our family......I was forced to cut them all off 10 years ago I had no choice but to do this to mentally survive...I'd already been made the scapegoat...this is a well-documented behaviour of narcissistic parents so I was outted anyway.....but the mind games she played were terrifying.... its been a real struggle which I know you will understand but I'm happier today than ever to be free from the toxic mess feel relaxed and I finally know the truth after alot of therapy and education on the personality disorder NPD it has been empowering....😊 ....
Dr. Ramani is the best at giving specific examples and even imitating their speech and how they talk and rationalize. That’s how I put two and two together that my Dad was a full narcissist
After almost 40 years of indirect abuse, I was just diagnosed with being the scapegoat of a narcissistic family. When I researched it , my jaw dropped. I went through every single thing noted- including denying past situations. It’s an incredibly sick family and I’m now happy to have cut myself off from it.
I went thru many years of it with my family. Its been a decade since I interacted with them. I remember that initial feeling when I learned there were patterns of pathology that matched my experiences in that family dynamic - a mix of horror and relief. Everything I experienced was part of the narcissistic abuse dynamics, the flying monkeys, the character assassinations... Now that some time has passed, the trauma has muted, especially my self-blaming for allowing/not knowing/enabling for so long. I only write to let you know that it does get better with time. The wounds scar, but they heal. The best news is that you will never again be a good target for narcissists, because you will see all the red flags early. I am so happy for you that you found your way out of that cycle of abuse. Be well!
@@N8_Rthere is always a way out without making the ultimate choice of unliving yourself. People care for you, i cared enough to respond to you and you are you wrote this because you want an alternative. Sometimes the scariest thing is making a choice that separates you from the people you been seeking validation from all your life, but knowing its the best thing for you.
Strangers will either be examined if they are a potential source of narcissistic supply (by love bombing and sneakily testing boundaries) or used to show off how well off and great you are (status gain). That is usually part of the "charm" you see at first contact.
Got out of an 8-year relationship with a narcissist after he was officially diagnosed. Had no idea what his diagnosis meant at first because I had no understanding of how narcissists use people. I thought narcissism just meant being pompous. I didn’t realize how much I had been wrecked by that human until I was out of it and learned about how they operate. Information on narcissism is crucially important this day and age. Knowing the signs of NPD can save so many people from heartache and from losing themselves.
the worst part of dealing with one is not knowing. after kicking her to the curb for the last time, i got my education totally by chance. it was nice of jesus to throw me that bone. with understanding, comes closure.
My wife has lost her brother to his narcissistic wife and it has put so much pressure on the family and they've basically had to mourn the loss. Shes systematically turned him against everyone. She's what this video described as a vulnerable narcissist and it's incredibly destructive. We all hope one day he'll wake up and realise how she has manipulated him and poisoned the family with her victim mentality. Narcissist's are, in my opnion, far worse than a lot of other personality issues. And it seems this current state of the world is producing more and more
coverts are really hard to spot, especially if you come from a place of empathy and compassion yourself, it is very hard to see and understand it is all manipulation and all one-way. Also there is a trauma bond, where you get addicted to it.. I think he has to eventually realize it on his own. I think when shit in life really hits the fan, he will realise she will not be there at all and wont even care, hopefully that will be enough.
Well not everybody has perfect parents so any emotional turmoil in a childs life is gona create holes in thier developement I grew up with 2 narsistic parents but luckily had a good strong family otherwise who pulled me through but I agree with todays society and absent parents or in fact just useless parents we will defo see a rise in ppl with phychological problems and as I always say to my hubby these ppl will b our carers some day soon 😮😮😮
It's not therapeutic because the victim narcissists find themselves here, and this reaffirms their delusion that it's everyone else that is the problem.
I think it’s nice to know there are other people out there who truly understand what this type of abuse is like. They have walked that road too. It’s an ugly, dark, painful road.
My father was my narcissistic abuser, my mom his enabler. He runs a “church” /cult in a small town where I grew up. From when I left home until later in my adulthood, I healed and recovered, set boundaries around them and their cult members, and live in that truth today.
@@bwb003 well done. I believe it's evil spirits. They offer control to the abuser and they snap it up and become their teacher the spirit. I don't believe you're born with it it happens by the choices you make the invites the evil in. IE mediums witchcraft sorcery, pharmaceuticals... Money dust as a example. Jesus is the messenger off god you ever find yourself in this again. You call out his name and he'll send all the help you need. I am testimony to it.
To all the Scapegoats who survived a narc household, please know that YOU are amazing! YOU are enough, you are worthy, you are a true survivor. I wish you healing and peace. Most of all I wish you self love and to be loved without fear.
Narcissism is a spectrum of negative behaviors of which most people fall into the first 25%. My experience with both victim and covert Narcissists is essentially a false self run by their egos. Neither accepts accountability nor responsibility for their actions despite how much harm they do to others. In both cases how they present themselves is used to manipulate and gaslight others to seek control over others to feed their egos. They are takers to the point that partners, children, and others in the relationship can eventually be sucked dry of their energy, self-esteem and physical health trying to appease their bottomless needs. A true Narcissist has no conscience of how they harm people because they think they're entitled to whatever they can get and will drop the relationship at the first sign of the person realizing what they're truly like or when better feed comes along. To everyone here wondering if they're a Narcissist and are horrified by that thought, the ability to self analyze takes you out of that definition. A Narcissist wouldn't care.
Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable source here in Australia. Really need!
Psychedelic is the answer to most severe anxiety and depression. The use of magic mushrooms completely helps one get over depression and makes you feel like yourself.
It’s time to realize that you have the ability to change 1 person in your life and that is you. Don’t let the way others treat you define you. Live and Learn. ❤
Since my divorce I learned of vulnerable narcissists. And she fits it to a tee. And I with my high empathy was a perfect victim to her tendencies. It doesn’t bother me when people blow up at me because I know they have the problem and I understand that they are mad because they are hurting. But this was the window through which I allowed her to treat me ever and ever more poorly. Throughout our 8 yr relationship and marriage, I hear the words ‘sorry’ from her a total of once. And that was because someone was mediating an argument for us. She could not avoid it. It was a learning experience for me. She would win arguments just with nuclear weapons-never with truth. And I refused to go that far, yet she never broke my spirit. And this is why our relationship could not work in the end. She really needed someone who folds completely to get along with. Now I am more aware what to look for for red flags. With the vulnerable narcissist, you aren’t going to see red flags at first. But you will see amber flags-even more subtle. And those turn into red ones -and those turn into a catastrophe LOL. I am learning that empathy and compassion do not mean you don’t create clearly delineated boundaries and let others cross them. It’s a hard lesson for someone like me. Look, I can’t even feed my cat properly. She comes in and gives me the cuddles and goes to her food dish even though she just ate. And I say no. No. No. Well…okay. Just this once. And now she has the most unproductive eating habits and it’s my fault. LOL
I resonate with every sentence! I am the same way and I lived the exact same for 17 years only because I could insulate my daughter from it. Turns out, not very well. I left a little over two years ago because she caught covid and blamed her marriage with me for almost dying from it. While she was in the hospital for 6 weeks, the home became peaceful and my daughter and I reconnected despite my wife's best efforts. Since I left it has been glorious!!!!! You've never seen someone so happy to loose $200k in equity and assets lol. I'm glad you are free from it brother! its like being freed from prison - i've never going back
Have Taken Dr. Campbell’s Intro to Psych course on Peterson Academy and he is a great teacher! First time seeing him out of that setting and feel like I’m watching my professor from college, Very surreal what they have been able to achieve with the online courses. Am proud to consider my self a student of his!
Having dealt with a parent who i highly suspect as being a vulnerable narcissist, it's sneaky. Everytime they do something wrong and are confronted, they have a dozen reasons on hand why they're the victim (ex: my childhood was this or my own parent did that). Though after the hundreth time going thru that routine, you finally start seeing it as the deflection it is. A smoke screen to hide that they dont care they hurt you; they're the only one to ever experience hurt; you, the actual victim, have no right to your emotions. The vulnerable narcissist gets to feel sad, not you.
Those last two lines describing their mentality are absolutely freaking beautiful. Thank you for voicing what I have struggled to articulate. Last year my husband and toddler were harassed and eventually attacked by a drug-seeker in the street; we have never been in this position before and were naturally horrified, so after reporting the incident to the police we then turned to our family to share our story and get some comfort. Everyone messaged us back with sympathy and asked us if we were okay, but my sister was silent. When I asked her if she had read my message or heard about the incident, she informed me that she was punishing me with her silence. She has been feeling lonely lately and was hoping to shake that depressing feeling by having everyone together at Christmas. Over 40 members of my family attended that Christmas party, but despite the fact that my sister knows quite a few of them very well, she was still hurt that I didn't make it to the party despite the fact that I don't have a car, that my dad lives in another town completely outside of my local transit options, and he was unable to pick up my family and I as per usual because he was busy playing host. I literally had no way of attending the event. However, because I made her feel left out and she didn't get to see her 'beloved' nieces at Christmas in the manner she wanted that somehow gave my sister the right to leave us out of her thoughts and concerns during a time of crisis. I told her, "sorry sister, but you don't get to pretend to 'love and miss your nieces' while simultaneously saying nothing upon hearing a drug-user tried to kidnap one of them." My sister even had the gall to try defending the drug-user, saying we shouldn't have spread her image around to our friends and family in order to identify her as someone not safe or stable enough to be around kids. "You shouldn't have recorded her when she was high and vulnerable"; sorry, but being high and vulnerable does not save you from being recorded so the police and fellow citizens may have you identified as someone who is a danger to themselves and others. We have since moved. My sister has not been allowed to step foot in my new house, she will not be invited to come meet my new baby who is due to be born next week, and when we are forced together at the occasional family gathering my husband and I are polite (for the benefit of my other family members) but distant when dealing with her.
@@toniduval4350 yep, they are always the victim and you are always the bad guy. It's kindof a miracle how that works.. I remember with my ex, when I am late (which almost never happens), she was pissed. When she was late (which always happens) and i said something about it I was the bad guy 'I try to make myself look good for you, that takes time, you don't even care about that!'. It is still mind boggling that somehow when she did something wrong and I brought it up, I ended up needing to defend myself and in the end she would be pissed with me and completely painted me the bad guy and would not talk to me for weeks. They are impossible to deal with if you want to keep your boundaries and a healthy balance of give and take. To them a healthy balance and boundaries is being abusive towards them.
This is exactly the time I discovered my folks were narcs (and was a great divorce as it got messy and vultures waiting) and fully supported their new narc partners. Shame it happened in 1984, cos that’s when the doublespeak began
The tiger and the snake. Both dangerous, but one attacks and usurps power while the other slithers insidiously into the garden. Battering ram technique vs sneaky fucker technique.
@@ReconcilemE Correct, there is no middle ground with these people. They have adopted a series of extreme habits and emotional reactions that only make sense in their own mind based on the unjustified trauma that happened to them. They live in a constant thought of people are out to get them, there is always an agenda, they can trust no one. It becomes self-sabotaging and self-victimization to the point that normal healthy interactions are seen as slights or insults. In their mind someone is always trying to control them even when it is not happening. Either you are someone they can benefit from so long as you aren't against them in any way like even disagreement OR you are a sworn enemy that needs crushing. A middle ground means there is empathy, accountability, reasonable sacrifice, courtesy, and respect. Narcissists are a Black Hole; everything goes in, and nothing comes out.
Understanding what narcissism is is half the battle. Implementation of the tools to fight against narcissism is the other half. Thank God He revealed this personality defect in the last few years.
Ive heard the words" everything would turn to shit if i wasn't here" after 3 months of her working away. My son and i had the best times of our life. School, dinner together, some tv, bed at normal time, wake him up, school on time. Footy at weekends. Y'know like a normal person
Take her in the pooper!! Buy gold and silver don’t let her know. Look broke so she can’t take you to the cleaners. Go to the casino so you look like you have a problem
That’s something I used to say to my ex husband all the time! That his behavior just wasn’t normal, nothing felt NORMAL! And that’s all I ever wanted was just a normal quiet peaceful life. They don’t have the capability of just being normal. They’re not like us!
Excellent point to raise this distinction, as most people wrongly assume that narcissists are per definition extroverted, loud and aggressive. My experience with one of the neurotic types is that they are the exact opposite. Indeed the role of victimhood, whereby the person is constantly diminishing himself to find reasons for both self-pity, as well as drawing attention with the purpose of having others pity on him. This creates a feeling of importance ("I am the most important person here because I'm the one that is hurt!"), compensating for the lack of love this person is feeling from the world, probably due to neglect since childhood. In a sense it is the opposite of how most people think narcissists are, which is the extroverted type that wants to shine and revels in attention for perceived excellence, fueling his ego even further and being rewarded for the effort to provoke his environment. The neurotic narcissist gets rewarded for being pitied, like a beaten dog crawling to the alpha so the alpha can "lick his wounds". This type of narcissist is possibly more dangerous, as you do not immediately notice this trait due to its false humility. The person is still extremely egocentric and is quite purposeful in getting attention, but does it in a more subtle way. My experience is with one such person that goes even so far as to sacrifice a family member, just to get the attention of any random person. He lives only in the moment, zero loyalty to family, friends or country, constantly seeking instant gratification through playing the victim. This type is also self destructive: if you only find purpose by being the victim, it actually becomes a better outcome to lose in any given situation, because the negative outcome gives better reward. And since losing does not build self confidence, the person will give less and less effort into any task in life. When there is a family to take care of, this person will pull down the family into this deep pit, partly to have constant feedback and partly because he cannot bear to see people living differently and have self confidence. The neurotic narcissist hates people with self confidence, because he envies their positive reinforcing pattern of gaining strength through sacrifice.
They are often the fastest (and best) at weaponising victimhood. We have one in our PTSD support group and her manipulative shenanigans are top-tier. 😵💫
one thing they are champions of, is self destruction. it took me a long time to conclude how something so self centered, can also be so self destructive? it just did not add up? they go burnt earth policy on everything they come in contact with out of hate, this hate goes so far as to self hate. they hate themselves, just as much as they hate the world, hate you, hate everything, hence the self destruction. they fully know right from wrong, choosing wrong every time.
You nailed it! I had a malovent narc for years… left me in pieces. Then the covert came up and seen me laying on the ground … oh perfect victim… and I married it. Have spent half the time as my ex, but the atrocities of the covert are actually MUCH worse than the loud ones… so cunning. Playing ignorant is a favorite card to pull for these types as well.
@@Adam-the-rock-hound Playing ignorant, in my experience, is denial of reality. More specifically, an avoidance of them having to look in a mirror, terrified of what they might see. People who have become like this have the almost impossible task of facing themselves for a lifetime of mental torture towards others, as well as the possible option of stepping out of self-imposed victimhood. When people associate themselves with their behaviour, in this case someone wants to be the victim as it is the only way they can relate to their life, the option of breaking this pattern and actually taking responsibility and doing something constructive that costs effort, is like denying their very existence. It puts them in a state of angst, a feeling of being utterly lost without a place in the world, because if you find out about yourself that your previous life is founded on destruction, it is as if you did not exist. And that they will have to start from scratch, like a child, naked and alone. The fear of most gambling addicts: having to admit to the losses instead of gambling on with the thought that "this one last time it will have made all previous losses worthwhile". Most people cannot handle such existential fears and will regress into their defeatist self. I'm not even sure whether someone who lived his life like this can be helped, even by therapy. Certainly not beyond a certain age. The person I know would not even be willing to go into therapy, not even family councelling. The best thing in my experience is to minimize ties. You cannot feed a troll that lives off your attention. They will do anything to gain this attention, all the way to blackmail and coercion, but the only way is to ignore them. And when you have joint commitments, like working groups or family members to take care of, you need to make sure you have your own agenda and leave the other out of that. Even when it goes at the cost of your relation with the others in the group or family members to some extent.
@@masterpep7218 💯… I was referring to when they actually know a hundred percent, but play dumb to avoid trouble. “I didn’t know we were together when I cheated.”… is one I got from a girl who was telling me the world… one example. I have tons.
Another subtle analysis on narcissism.....is getting better and better our understanding about it thanks to honest psychologists like yourselves who are trying to study, honestly, this form of mental disorder. Thank you
The true narcissist hurts people intentionally. And has a mapped out plane to destroy a certain individual. That individual usually has something to take or destroy. The target could be a master at his craft and knows it. That makes him aware and confident. And humble if there a master. This person isn’t hurting anyone intentionally. The narcissist is intentionally hurting the civilian. Or target. The narcissist knows the end result of the relationship. The target doesn’t , unless there aware of what a true narcissist is, and how they operate. It’s the same game different faces …. This was my least favorite talk and guest of Jordan. Looking forward to meeting you soon Dr. thank you for your efforts in the subject today.
Dr. Peterson hit the nail on its head at the end. That's why yoga of action is very crucial. By dissolving yourself into the action, one can be free from those self consciousness. Taoist defined this as wu wei. In Gita, it's yoga of action. By doing this, you become less attached to things and see the pattern in things and achieve wisdom. And that's why Dr. Peterson mentioned many times the importance of doing things (action) where you lose track of time.
Maybe it's just me, but the personality traits used to define and describe narcissism seem to be common to the fallen human condition. We are all self centered. We all envy. We all feel we are injured more than we injure. Better than trying to box in what a narcissist is or does, it would serve each of us - and all of us - to look more honestly at our own thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors and work on improving those.
agreed. I dont think there is a personality trait that is muted in any person. If there is a catalyst for adopting narcissistic tendencies, its entertainment and social media
I have extensive experience with narcissistic people and YES their traits are all human traits. They’re human. But there is a significant difference between a person with NPD and a healthy human. The biggest indicator is a consistent lack of empathy. But that can be faked so it’s not always easy to spot. Children are quite narcissistic because their prefrontal cortex isn’t developed. A narcissist must have some developmental damage there due to a lack of healthy parental attachment because in many ways (when the mask drops) they’re extremely like little children
The difference from what you said which is very correct in your observation to what a narcissist is; they believe they do not need to work on themselves at all because YOU are the problem and everyone else IS the problem. If OTHER people would just get their shit together then THEY would feel better about doing better. They will scapegoat a person for being a human with flaws if they can get away with it. They have zero apology for their actions even when they are caught with hard evidence. All treatment methods are rendered ineffective to a person who doesn't think they need to improve. That's the difference. It is an extreme thinking that takes over their entire life and sabotages everything and deeply scars many people close to them.
@@tulinbeyduz920No. People who have chronic pain and people who go through traumatic experiences ( divorce, rape, plane crashes, car accidents, etc) also get depression.
I like the way narcissism was explained and how the distinctions were made between what it really is and how narcissists are motivated. I have had life changing encounters with narcissists. My mom might have counted as one, but she was was neither good nor bad all at once. Her constant mood changes and outbursts due to Multiple Sclerosis attacks made her one of the most unstable people I knew growing up. And, then she would come around and be amazing. To me she was more good than bad, but if I were honest I spent most of my life walking on eggshells. I would often and get blamed when her condition got worse and we would argue and was treated like I was killing her. Her episodic episodes and crying for hours on end gave me CPTSD and issues. It was so bad that I decided that I would never have kids. Two people in the family had it on a distant side of the family and there was the chance that I could have gotten it ir passed it on. But, I got bipolar instead. She did weird things that seemed selfish but we were always forced into not talking about it or exposing it. When I had foot surgery in highschool on both my feet, I was told when I should start walking in my feet and applying full pressure before the doctor said I could. When I burned my hand and had to apply silvadine on my hand and wrap it daily after they cut away the skin, my mom made me ration the amount of medicine I put on my hand. Her excuse was that she needed it to use if ever she would get burned wthe kitchen and couldn't get any without a doctor's prescription. When I graduated from college, she wanted to give away my backpack to some else claiming they needed it and I wouldn't need it anymore. I bought the backpack with my own money. But, she was seen as the person at church always loaning things out. She was different at home than she was with friends and acquaintances. And, I could go on for days talking about all the things she did that hurt family members or even myself. But, most of us just covered it up and only complained to those directly effected. We believed the legions on her brain from MS gave her rage beyond measure and made her moody and controlling. But, it didn't lessen the damage. All it did was gave a reasonable explanation for it. But, there were time when the was amazing and charismatic. She had a very high IQ and practically had a photographic memory. Her narcissistic traits always seemed different and I never wanted to put her in the same category until I encountered and learned of different kinds of narcissists. My manager is a narcissist. Her treatment of me over the years was so bad that it lead to a nervous breakdown and hospitalization. Without references I lied in many circles about knowing someone who had experienced the whims of a malignant narcissist, when in reality it was I that was treated so poorly that I couldn't talk about it. Tables have turned and they are no longer able to come to my desk and regularly put me down calling me crazy, special, or stupid. Had a therapist once that tried to compare my mother with that manager, and I almost stopped seeing them. I told them they were wrong and listed all the things my manager did that even my mother never would. She literally enjoyed putting people down. Once she cursed at me so many times that I counted how many times she cursed at me and the computer to see who she was truly angry at. I made the mistake of telling her that and she hated me ever since saying she was offended. 50 different people in therapy groups used to swear when the heard what that manger did or said to me. And, to this day I am still in anxiety groups because of her. I had no close friends at work to protect myself and keep myself from saying too much to the wrong person. So my work reputation suffered because she did so much to tarnish my reputation with important people. I produced excellent work, am responsible for 40% of the improvements in my department since I started, and I got a raise when on medical leave. I make technical documents in between all my assigned work, and almost all in person training in the department has been eliminated for last six years. My work has kept me safe and even made management look good. But, all I have graduated to is tolerated. I am so creative that I have given suggestions that other people have used as their own ideas, even on if my managers did something with it six months later. People outside of the department like me, but I always fear my narcissistic manager. Even though HR has limited her access and other things, it could all blow up at any moment. No one has ever treated so poorly in my life, and that's saying a lot. Because I have been though alot for some with a moderate ACE score. That is my experience with highly extraverted and malignant narcissists. But, I have someone else in my life that I consider the weak narcissist. In my anxiety group is a woman with Borderline Personality Disorder. I think I have met 4 people with borderline, but this woman is the only one so self obsessed and oblivious to how little they consider others. Who knows maybe her ACE score was between a 9-10. Her mother was controlling and sounds like she was abusive, maybe even a malignant narcissist. And , 40+ years later this woman is still messed up. As someone who has actually been to a psych ward multiple times, I can say this matter of factly without judgement. I have observed a lot, but this woman is the weakest and neediest person I have ever met. She won't stop talking about herself and every thought that pops into her mind has to be vocalized at that exact moment. She cannot wait and everything has to be said right when she thinks about it or else she gets upset. She talk throughout the entire anxiety group talking over people and just talk even when there is a moment of silence. Twi separate times someone mentioned that she had an issue with talking out of turn and how they wanted her to wait. Each time she blew up yelling and crying before storming out of the room for the day. No apologies, to understanding, no listening to anyone else ever happens. People just let her do whatever she wants in group otherwise she will throw a tantrum. And, ahe has a history of people cutting her off. She sees herself as a victim in every situation and wants someone to validate every utterance and put all the attention on her. She is triggered my everything. She almost had a breakdown hearing about something that happened to me, and ahe acted as if it happened to her. She was triggered and was now haunted by past memories. She carries the past with her. Her daughter hasn't spoken to her in almost a decade. She feels suicidal over this and has voiced it, but not ince did ahe ever mention asking her daughter what she felt and what ahe could do to make it right. Her best friend left her. And, she told be about how a police officer told her that he hated her and hated dealing with her. Everything is an impulse. And, she is motivated to look for danger and sympathy everywhere. Her own therapist cannot even walk past the door of the group without her yelling out his name. She is fragile and completely shut off from self reflection. She has worked on DBT and other techniques, but I don't think they will ever help her with relationships if ahe is too fragile to accept any feedback and responsibility. All of thesea people are narcissistic in their own way. But, there is a difference in the selfcenteredness. One type enjoys seeing people suffering, and the other can see nothing but their own pain. The weak woman wouldn't hurt anyone with intent, she is just reacting to not being able to regulate. The malignant type. Well, that is what Dr. Ramani is for. She helps victims understand the psychology. And, Dan O'Connor helps people respond to narcissists and get respect. I learned more about assertiveness from his communication videos than I ever did in years of thearpy. Therapists suck at dealing with passive communicators. I have literally been scolded for not being assertive instead of just being shown how. I am so aggreable that I walked out with a messed up haircut this week and still tipped well. People know how to identify narcissists, but very dew know how to safely deal with them.
Listening further, this is an incredible mirror to my professional experience; when I did finally quit, my VN boss actually threw his pen on the desk at me, like a toddler. I was astounded at the lack of self-control during a professional conversation, but now that I'm learning more about this it makes complete sense.
My older sister is a manipulative covert narcissist. My younger sister is a psychopathic narcissist. After decades of psychological abuse, I completely cut ties with both of them. Sad but necessary for my self-preservation.
@@sandwich-breath Both parents passed 10 years ago. Father was a narcissist with anger issues. Mom was a wonderful wife and mother. She tried her best to love and protect us. Very little was understood about narcissists and mental illness back then.
you thinking you're better off without someone else in your life is 100% sign of narcissism. You yourself are a bona fide narcissist. No matter what you tell yourself to feel better, it doesn't matter. It is what it is
One way of how to stop being the victim of a narcissist or narcissistic family is to take the huge step of isolating yourself from the abuse: putting up and tolerating toxic people fuels them and creates an even bigger monster. Those with huge amounts of solid mental strength can ignore the effects of narcissistic behaviour. But others will need to leave the area, the source of toxicity, which means going to live in a different place - which I did twice. The first time I attempted it was by moving to a different neighborhood. But it wasn't sufficient: I eventually had to move to a different country, which was a huge step to take, a huge upheaval involving great risk but it worked: I saved myself from toxicity that would have crushed me into small pieces.
Even after some 27 yrs away from the controlling crap i had to deal with in my home life growing up on a difficult visit to the family home explaining some difficult marital issues i was having i got upset and was told i was not allowed to cry as we dont have that here ... i still after a year from this being said to me am stunned as to the lvl of control my father thinks he has over me even to try to control wether i cry .my mother has allways allowed his controlling ways and sits by and just watches what happens and says nothing. There are many more examples but i would be typing for wks even now as my father is dying bedridden from cancer he thinks he is still able to control others its amazing how this compulsion has taken over his life .i do feel pity but try to avoid to much contact as it is just so poisonous and toxic. Mostly i have noticed it seems to be driven by his own very deep anxieties . And can be made much worse by a stubborn streak a mile wide even to his own detrement even when very wrong he will plow ahead regardless of negative outcome, he is always right in his eyes and everybody else knows nothing . Very very sad and i think this came from his mother when he was growing up as i never saw any of this in my grandfather but deffo traits in my grandmother .so behaviour learnt growing up and then made worse by himself as adult .
Reading the comments so decided to comment myself. It must be noted that only 3-5% of people are actual narcissists (personality disorder type). It is very unlikely that everyone's problems are because of that small demographic. We certainly all exhibit narcissistic and immature behaviors at times, but to hear this discussion and think to yourself "Oh, he was a narcissist. He was the problem" is the very form of narcissism that they are talking about. Focusing on all the bad things that people did to you and how their behavior affected you is the self-centeredness that is making you miserable. Not meaning to hurt any feelings but I simply hope my brutal honesty helps people take a considered look at themselves instead of simply accepting that their feelings are true and looking outward for blame.
Narcissism is a spectrum (in severity of symptoms) and only when your score is above a certain threshold it is recognized as "full clinical NPD" (like over 70% of points p.ex.). It is estimated that something like 10-20% of the population have a narcissistic personality structure, but only a fraction of them have full blown NPD, e.g. the full feature set and in a severe form all at once. That makes it cumbersome to talk about it properly.
And you’re in the wrong group here saying stuff like that. You haven’t suffered enough at a narc’s hand or been repeatedly abused by a malignant narcissist parent. You haven’t hurt enough or you wouldn’t be in here saying stuff to people you don’t know. Go gaslight somewhere else.
Been subjected to narcissistic people ALL my life. When I was away from the main perpetrator- my egg donor, you need to fulfill the job description to be called ‘mother’ - I started to develop. When I left my second husband, I realised just how bad things had been. First month, I felt such a relief and was able to think 💭 Second month, an immense improvement on the first month and I was so so happy. Third month, even better than the last two months. The cotton wool I had for brains was almost cleared. BUT, at this point I became very, very depressed. Why? For two reasons, I hadn’t realised just how bad things had been and next I realised there was still a great deal yet to clear. It took me the next 2 months to deal with those two reasons. Slow but sure wins the race though Never, never, never, never, ever give up. 🙏🏻💚🕊️🌻
Describes me perfectly. Subjugated to my own whims and emotional states, in sacrifice of my future self and others. I try to face this reality time and time again, never coming to full realization. If you suffer this way, may God help you.
Truly narcissistic people never admit they have a problem. I can see that there's hope for you because you demonstrated awareness. Something a narcissist would never do.
@@MilestonemongerI respectfully disagree. I personally know two vulnerable narcissists as well as a biblical example (King Saul) who readily admit they do wrong and harm others while subjecting others to their short-sighted whims. However they never change, even when amply warned that they are about to hurt undeserving innocents again. It's as if they genuinely don't understand that recognizing their bad behavior does not excuse their bad behavior - we are expected to just unconditionally accept and include them as they are, no matter how much they hurt us.
JP is a human, and everything he's gone thry, his pain, also strengethns me as much if not more than his old college lectures, opinions, thoughts, insights, mistakes, admissions, and books, and all else. Thanks JP. It does help. I also discovered Robert Greens's books thru JP. Superheroes of logos, pathos, and ethos. World is better for them having spoken up through their pain.
Social Media increases narcissistic realm for those for who are narcissists. It’s like their own personal social stage. There they will indirectly expose their tendencies on full blast. Want to know a suspect narcissist, keep an eye on them on social media. Also in the entertainment industry you will also see them. In that atmosphere you see people who don’t have real talent think they deserve a Grammy.
Thank you for sharing this conversation! My thoughts 💭 having experiences with people diagnosed as narcissists. Yes, extroverts, grandiosity, envy, neuroticism, jealousy, manipulators, charming Charlie syndrome, etc. Narcissistic personality traits exemplify a level of darkness that prioritizes the self in every aspect-no matter what others say, think, or do to try to help them. The self-love of a narcissist is nauseating, as their ridiculous acts are to the detriment and peril of anyone in their lives. The narcissist believes that they are charming and should be treated as a core turnoff to lead people to walk away immediately, as narcissists deny and plea bargain their actions of folly are of bitterness, contempt, sarcasm, and self pity falsehoods. Biblical convictions and values matter nothing to them whatsoever and they are utterly unashamed of their immaturity, manipulative behaviors, and outright spiritual decay they aspire to achieve. Self-loathing, and no ability to comprehend a healthy relationship or life, love, and so real authentic relationships escapes them, and so many chase after life happiness, even if they feel they must control it. Sadly traumatizing events characteristic of most narcissists upbringing during formative younger years, hence why they lack any wisdom, empathy and compassion for others. They lack understanding of what it means to behave like an adult, and groping for attention throughout their lives becomes a patten, as they seek to be loved even in wrongful ways, therefore growing up to become a trustworthy partner isn’t something they desire to achieve. Anyone who has a biblical approach and demonstrates greater wisdom is an annoyance to them, as they don’t want to see their dark souls being exposed to them, yet they have no fear of doing the will of the evil 😈 one. It’s a jealous depth of love that doesn’t reside within them that makes them seek out their victims.
CS Lewis also wrote about narcissism and it helped me tremendously to identify the traits. I have an older brother who is manipulative and has a superiority complex and suffers from an inferiority complex at the same time. When I finally understood he was a narcissist, I stopped trying to gain his acceptance because my success threatened his superiority. I had to be the loser so that he could rise above. Even after understanding it, for years I still tried to serve him and be loyal to him. Finally I am a stronger person who won’t completely crumble at his humiliating criticisms. I just have to remember not to be the one to reach out first. I know. It is sad.
Narcissism is a spectrum just like BPD and Autism. I wish more psychologists and mental health providers understood this. Survivors like myself who have CPTSD need a very tailored approach to trauma healing and therapy based on our lived experience.
My self conscience / neuroticism is usually about guilt of doing something wrong or doing something to offend someone else/hurt them. I am empathetic towards those around me but especially to make sure my own self is perceived as acceptable and that I haven’t done anything wrong. Which is hard to distinguish whether it is self preservation or the well being of others that is the motivator
All my life I looked internally for answers about my personality. Learning that I'm a vulnerable narcissist is helpful. I could never pay attention to what people were saying to me because I'd always be thinking about my facial expression or whether I look anxious, scared or confident. It caused me to do very poorly in school. I'd get lost in most conversations because my mind drifted back to myself instead of paying attention to what was being said. That would cause me to worry about what to say next because I'm lost in the conversation, which causes non sequiturs and awkward moments. Then I feel like a failure and poor me so I hid from the world. It's not until recently as I've gotten older that I started growing out of this. What a waste of opportunity it all was. Never did I consider it was narcissism. Just didn't cross my mind. Much easier to reframe things in my mind when I consider it that way.
it sounds to me like high masking autism not narcisism !!! we are oftenly confused with narcissistic because all of the self centred behaviours and worries about the responses we project out in the world and not paying attention to conversation because we're in a headspace please do your research before labeling yourself and start warping what really was happening to fit into that case be open to explore that other possibility , take an online test its free and orienting ,i've been studying narcissism for a while now , and your case doesn't sound at all like one ! chances are you are a high functionning autistic
Sounds like that hyper neuroticism and crippling insecurities. You didn't really describe narcissism there mate. Sounds like a confidence issue. Often stems from negative reinforcement when you were younger
Sounds more like ADHD. Narcissists aren't overly concerned about how their expressions come across because if you disagree you are the enemy trying to hurt them or their reputation by saying they are wrong and they can't be wrong because that means they are vulnerable which makes them a victim all over again.
So many videos about this issue say there is no management of a narcissist. They say to flee while you can. However, I feel there may be a way to establish boundaries and utilize empathy and the orchestration of reflection in the family. It doesn’t cure or solve the problem, but allows for functionality and the expression of emotion. I’m going to lee thinking about this… I’m sure it’s possible.
Person realized that others believe their lies in fact, like them even more from fear, this power eats itself and person becomes a Narcissist, yet never sees their sins ~
Holy crap this just hit 3 hours ago. RUclips is flooded with garbage and tons of opinions on this, with zero precision and research. Narcisssm is also a thing we fear being ourselves, and also want to label all our enemies as. I have theories and ideas, but so glad to hear from Peterson and this expert.
Here’s a piece of advice for all the narcissistic, disagreeable people out there-like myself: pursue a career in the arts. Before I got seriously into singing and visual arts, I was, in a word, a mess. My husband jokes that I have a ‘small circle’ of 300 friends, but honestly, social interaction is my thing-and I genuinely enjoy it! If you don’t channel that energy into something public and creative, you risk becoming a total disaster-whether it’s falling into addiction or turning into a toxic person. But once you dive into a creative field, you’ll feel that restless energy being put where it belongs. Immaturity in narcissistic people is often the same playful spirit you need to create art, write songs, and just enjoy the ride. Think of it like having a police dog as a couch pet; worrying about a ruined couch isn’t your biggest problem. Thank you, Mr. Peterson, for being the first person to say, ‘Hey, you’re normal-just find your place in the world and live a happy life.’ And who knows? Maybe one of us narcissists will end up writing the song that plays during your first kiss with the love of your life.”
@@tulinbeyduz920 I am no expert, but I think the ways in a high a person can be one self-conscious are innumerable. If I had to take a stab, it would be like becoming aware of negative possibility leads us to become self-conscious.
There is no causal affect connecting self obsessed and being miserable… self consciousness is indistinguishable from negative emotions .. they are actually the same thing. This hits the nail on the head.. is exactly why there is no fixing the narcissist! It is who they are. RUN!
Thank you for the insight into ‘whim’. We had a ‘snakes in suits’ experience. The individual had been engaged as a professor - been through interviews etc - and had nothing to prove or gain. On his personal HR sign on document with address, emergency contact and bank details , he wrote PhD from elite US university. He later asserted on grants that he had a doctorate, and was sacked, but there was something to gain by falsifying qualifications. I could never understand why you would falsify qualifications for no gain; a whim (which is dangerous) or an arrogant statement that he believed he could get away with it.
Yes I've noticed with Petersons. Videos now the ads are within the video , I pay so I don't see RUclips videos but now they've found a war around it . I'll just stop watching his videos , although interesting, he is just involved in a massive cash grab and always has been
I think the more insidious narcissist is the covert or 'vulnerable' narc. Because they feign empathy and are capable of mirroring the empath. So cruel. Very warped once you learn who they really are. They seem bent on destroying others self worth.
I consider myself a narcissistic individual, but I believe that, if you’re raised with the right values, this mindset can be channeled for good. While most people see narcissism in a negative light, I know that, deep down, someone like me can use it to be a force for positive change. I live each day trying to be kind and help others without expecting anything in return. You can judge me if you want, but I truly believe that anyone even those with narcissistic traits can genuinely want to help others. I’ve been through a lot, and instead of repeating negative cycles, I choose to be a better person. Take something simple, like giving someone a ride home, even if it’s a long drive I won’t ask for anything in return because the act of helping is enough for me. I know I struggle with long-term friendships or relationships, but I’ve learned to control my mind, stay positive, and focus on helping others. It’s not about what I get back, but about paying it forward and hoping they’ll do the same for someone else. I’ve had days when I needed help and no one was there, so I choose to do good and make a difference when I can.
Hope no one who has been affected by narcissism takes offense to this. I’m aware this isn’t perfectly worded, as I’m working right now and listening to Jordan Peterson to learn more about both the positive and negative traits of narcissism. I’m trying to understand them better so I can work on myself and become a better man.
Yes, I feel the same way at times and then have to remind myself to look at the functional impact and damages. For example, I can imagine hurting someone when I'm angry, but I don't and if I give off that type of energy I genuinely feel bad. Narcissistic personality is incapable of feeling badly and may hurt with intention to hurt. The term narcissism is being used too much and people are struggling to pinpoint it, where it begins and ends. This is a red flag. The psychological community is not 100% clear on this because people and social dynamics are complex and inherently multifaceted. Self awareness about social dynamics in mental, physical and spiritual presentations is helpful. The fact that people can say that children are oftentimes narcissistic and don't feel abused by children and have lifelong trauma tells me we could reframe a lot of narc abuse and walk away. Problem is, many people who are abused by narcs want(ed) connection with a narc and get lost in themselves trying to figure out nonsense. They then make this snippet of experience their identity because life can be so mundane feeling anything at all is a bit of an escape (into trauma unfortunately). This is not an identity, it's trauma that can be processed and integrated with proper time, attention and effort. Taking accountability for engaging with yourself on proper healing is not victim blaming, it's empowerment. Wish everyone time for healthy integration. 🎀
Richard Grannon offered one of the best explanations of the difference between Grandiose (Overt) NPD & Vulnerable (Covert) NPD - to paraphrase: "Grandiose Narcissists think they're amazing, and largely, the world agrees with them. Vulnerable Narcissists think they're amazing, but largely, the world doesn't agree with them".
That's not the case. Neither truly think they're "amazing." I know one diagnosed NPD who I became good friends with, after realizing I myself am ticking one too many boxes of NPD *as well as BPD* ... AND being in a relationship with a man who I strongly believe is NPD who put me through absolute torture. The way he ended the relationship was the reason I was very close to taking my own life. Throughout the relationship, I was just as close. He was able to toy with both sides of my "disorders" and work them to his advantage at will until finally, he had me completely at bottom. I have still not broken free from his grasp emotionally though he cut all communication with me. I'm disgusted with the "gurus" on the internet who have no idea how to articulate the reality of this disorder. By my own admission, I do, in truth, see myself as both a victim of NPD to a severe degree, and also see myself as *most likely NPD,* so I can say this. The amount of Narcissists out there is staggering and will only get worse. Some are extremely perceptive and intelligent. Some are not. They do not all act the same and they do not all carry the same traits across the board like a checklist (though some can.) And yes, they CAN have empathy in the form of feeling deeply saddened, and they can be taught that by use of manipulation tactics from a parent who used control tactics that would mold the child into feeling sorrowful. There are way too many "guesses" made by these experts and that's why you see the TRUE experts like Jordan Peterson, even questioning particulars of the behaviors. He will admit he doesn't know everything about the disorder where you then have idiots like Ramani who paint them all the same way yet she has absolutely no understanding of the *depths* of this. Sam & Richard study them to the extreme but Richard is trying to sell something, and Sam identifies himself as king. Be careful what you believe.
@alouise3557 The RG quote was only ever meant as a simple description for the sake of laymen recognising the differences between the 2 disorders. Obviously this would read differently if it were aimed at a higher level - I.e. replacing 'they're' with 'their false self', at least. It goes without saying that a p/w NPD wouldn't 'truly' think anything about their true/real/original self.... because depending upon whose research you believe, it either doesn't exist anymore, or is so atrophied as to render it all-but non-existent anyway. RG & SV are the first to acknowledge the criticisms you levy at them.... and neither point negates the possibility of either of them being correct (that is, those things have no relationship to their potential for correctness / incorrectness). Very little in this field is agreed upon, or taken as the unquestioned truth - so claiming one 'expert' as the authority on the matter is misrepresenting the reality of this field of research.
@@NoComment374 "...for the sake of *laymen* recognizing the differences between the two disorders"? Laymen? I disagree. It was a completely false statement, if he truly did say it. With all did respect, you can't reduce it to something mundane by implying, "well he would be saying more words that would start to become true if he was explaining it to smarter people." As for your understanding about a "true, real original self," you are assuming that people with this disorder cannot know the difference between their learned behaviors and self reflection. I became friends with one Narcissist who is self aware, and you has been diagnosed and in therapy for years. He's had plenty of time to self reflect and in fact, has contacted me during a few high points of self discovery. He has explained his behaviors in efforts to figure out how and why he had knee-jerk responses to specific situations; how he mitigated a collision course that was about to happen had he responded to those "core beliefs" and then he asked me to help him put the pieces together on what may have led him to this kind of belief. I was present as he began to piece it together, and eventually expressed resentment toward his mother. Not even in therapy had he experienced such a revelation (as his knee-jerk response was the false sense of self, or the "mask" that was so ingrained in him that it was about to lead him to making a very big mistake.) He was able by a split second decision to slow down (so as to avoid risk) and mitigate, and then even take steps to reach out to someone for help. There are far too many people who are doing nothing more than repeating what everyone else is saying and hoping they sound like an "expert". They claim true Narcissists are beyond help and they have no business saying that. Perhaps it takes something beyond the constantly changing DSM to enlighten people who are using it as a Bible. After all, it's the same source that has been a consistent cause for argument amongst the "experts" and the same people who make decisions as to it's content are the same people who believe people should have the right to call themselves newly invented words to make themselves feel better.
Narcissism (at least to the point of being a severe character flaw) used to seem rather rare. These days it seems like everyone knows a narcissist. Have people gotten worse?
My last relationship was with a narcissist, worst experience of my life and most of the experiences that came from it i feel like people wouldnt even believe 😅
Something that isn't discussed enough is they often pair up: an overt with a covert, or an NPD wth a BPD, etc. Dark personalities often flock to each other, outside of hooking up with co-dependents, the unlucky, etc
@@WhereTheyLayyes they do team up and a narcissistic pile on is the worst and most dangerous people experience possible. They become a cult. Numbers encourages them to greater depths of inhumanity, sadism and atrocity.
@@WhereTheyLay I disagree. I think they need too much, and another narc will also need too much, so this is exception rather then normal. takers pair with givers, empaths with narcs etc. You can't have two takers in a relationship for very long. Wish it was true, then they would just abuse each other.
@@WhereTheyLayactually that's not really so. Particularly borderline/ narcissistic low functioning men seek out higher strata women who are hyper empathetic and extremely tolerant. Often it's the high functioning woman's resources which the narcissistic man is after. Borderlines and narcissists are extremely intolerant of anyone with emotional or any other needs so they wouldn't stay with anyone who is "needy" in any way.
It's nice to see Jordan Peterson in his element, talking about personality types and feeding it back to the Big5. It would be nice to listen more about these extremes and personality. What if somebody would be very extroverted and very neurotic? Is it possible combination?
I grew up in the church. A Sunday school lesson was to do good things for others without telling people about the deeds. In church you practice helping others without telling for human reward. We learned to help people because god was pleased. Taught to store our riches in heaven where it never decays. The bible is a shield against narcissism
It seems that the world actively trains all of us to become self-centred. From an early age. Instead of self focus (promoted) perhaps we should glance upwards, towards our Creator. Put him first, then other people. How novel eh?
Ayn Rand differentiated between selfish person and the selfist person. Selfist people are 'Be the best you can be, a better you benefits everyone else.' Selfish people are 'Get all you can get, everyone else be damned."
Dr Ramani's awareness and advice is brutally real and excellent, imho. It's been less than a year before I even heard the term 'covert narcissism' and, after countless hours of listening to her, I'm finally aware and optimistically crawling slowly towards 'happiness' again, big thanks to her.
Because she's not an expert on narcissism in the slightest she has no professional expertise in the area save she has a doctorate in generic psychology
A healthy person who exhibits boundaries and standards is not a narcissist. They just know what they want & deserve. As long as they don’t exhibit envy, jealousy, & toxic behavior
You should interview prof. sam vaknin, he's a a researcher of narsism and is a narsisits he has a more complex understanding of narcissism and their formation..
The Bible describes them perfectly! Romans 1:28-32 "Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them".
Absolutely! Well, I think there is a difference between narcissistic traits and a pathological narcissist. We should absolutely be conscious of it, I think the political left is actually more covert narcissism. I’ve been calling a lot of people out for moral superiority lately.
@@MeadowXRising They are not covert about it at all. Covert implies it is not being openly displayed or acknowledged. They flaunt it, and have for years. They do not care.
@@zeddwulfen7737 I don’t agree. I think there is more of a focus on moral superiority, Virtue signaling, they are more righteous, and it’s not overly or outwardly boastful, which I believe is where the covert narcissistic traits comes in. This behavior operates under the guise of empathy, and high morals. It makes it really hard to challenge without being accused of attacking ideals of compassion, of justice. This is passive aggressive, manipulative, and I find it to be much more insidious.
These are great insights, but as someone diagnosed woth narcissistic personality disorder, and some autism/adhd, I have yet to discover an NHS professional who seems to have the slightest idea what a good treatment pathway might be. Outwith Group therapy or 12 steps, suggestions very welcome.
Thank you for discussing the most overused and misunderstood diagnosis in American culture. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting someone misusing this word.
Yes! When this word comes up, I always think to myself “are we just goi my to use clinical psychology terms casually as if we’re psychologists?” Unless there’s a definition that is less clinical and more casual.
The irony is that narcissists are victims too. As someone who suspects it in himself, I can tell you that Peterson's analysis is absolutely spot on. Neuroticism, whimsical behaviour and self-consciousness are a curse. There are mitigation strategies that can be employed, such as what I call 'fasting', where gratification is simply delayed, as well as ample exercise, but just as one has to eat at some point, the whimsical behaviour, usually centred around alcohol (which mitigates the self-consciousness and facilities the pleasure seeking), will reassert itself very strongly. The 'fast' is largely characterised by immense cynicism, nihilism and anxiety. None of these things are a choice. It is what it is. The only saving grace is that this is buttressed by a degree of empathy and policed somewhat by regret. All a very vicious circle from which escape is impossible.
"There isn't a causal connection between being obsessed with yourself an being miserable it's that they're actually the same thing" ... That kinda follows from the assumption that humans suck. We all suck, but the more you focus on yourself and the more you care about yourself, the more you are going to be aware you suck, the more you will care that you suck and the more you will be miserable as a result of your awareness that you aren't what you want to be.
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I grew up in a narcissistic home. My mother is the narcissist. My dad is the enabler. It was awful. The emotional, mental abuse for 37 years. Physical abuse when I was a child. I wasn't allowed to have think for myself, I couldn't have a favorite color, book, song, outfit, hairstyle, ect. I wasn't allowed to have feelings. If I cried, I would be told "quit feeling sorry for yourself" If I was happy, " what do you have to be happy about". Nothing was okay. It kills you inside. I really felt dead inside. I was the scapegoat in my family. Everything I did was my fault. My mom blamed me for everything that went wrong in her life and my sisters lives. I had to cut off my family. I am thankful that I did. I am thankful Lord God saved me! That I have a heavenly Father that loves me, even when my mom and dad hate me.
It's sad and I am sorry and I agree God loves us and we cannot even begin to conceive of the depth and breadth and height of his love for us... hold on to your faith in his love for you.
Had a similar situation from my parents empathize completely
So sad to read your story... but God always has a new beggining for those who seek him.
Sorry..my sons mom Is like this and this sounds like her. Everything is always wrong with someone but not her. I left thar bs but I worry about my kid with her. I have to tread lightly with what I say anytime, because she will block Me and I cant even talk to him. Seeing you say this concerns me for his future
Relate.....my Mother was a narcissistic abuser ... controlled our family......I was forced to cut them all off 10 years ago I had no choice but to do this to mentally survive...I'd already been made the scapegoat...this is a well-documented behaviour of narcissistic parents so I was outted anyway.....but the mind games she played were terrifying.... its been a real struggle which I know you will understand but I'm happier today than ever to be free from the toxic mess feel relaxed and I finally know the truth after alot of therapy and education on the personality disorder NPD it has been empowering....😊 ....
Dr. Ramani is the best at giving specific examples and even imitating their speech and how they talk and rationalize. That’s how I put two and two together that my Dad was a full narcissist
After almost 40 years of indirect abuse, I was just diagnosed with being the scapegoat of a narcissistic family. When I researched it , my jaw dropped. I went through every single thing noted- including denying past situations. It’s an incredibly sick family and I’m now happy to have cut myself off from it.
I went thru many years of it with my family. Its been a decade since I interacted with them. I remember that initial feeling when I learned there were patterns of pathology that matched my experiences in that family dynamic - a mix of horror and relief. Everything I experienced was part of the narcissistic abuse dynamics, the flying monkeys, the character assassinations...
Now that some time has passed, the trauma has muted, especially my self-blaming for allowing/not knowing/enabling for so long. I only write to let you know that it does get better with time. The wounds scar, but they heal.
The best news is that you will never again be a good target for narcissists, because you will see all the red flags early. I am so happy for you that you found your way out of that cycle of abuse. Be well!
@@olson.pamelacrazy how much information is avaliable now
@@N8_R What is the only way out?
@@N8_Rthere is always a way out without making the ultimate choice of unliving yourself. People care for you, i cared enough to respond to you and you are you wrote this because you want an alternative. Sometimes the scariest thing is making a choice that separates you from the people you been seeking validation from all your life, but knowing its the best thing for you.
@@olson.pamelathe info wasn’t available because we live in a society that promotes child abuse.
Narcissistic people will treat strangers like gold but then treat those closest to them like crap
Omg 1000 % …. 18 Kt Phonies
Strangers will either be examined if they are a potential source of narcissistic supply (by love bombing and sneakily testing boundaries) or used to show off how well off and great you are (status gain). That is usually part of the "charm" you see at first contact.
Pray for me please, trust God
Thats a form of lovebombing
You are describing everybody. We don't reserve our best self for people we are familiar with. It's natural.
Got out of an 8-year relationship with a narcissist after he was officially diagnosed. Had no idea what his diagnosis meant at first because I had no understanding of how narcissists use people. I thought narcissism just meant being pompous. I didn’t realize how much I had been wrecked by that human until I was out of it and learned about how they operate. Information on narcissism is crucially important this day and age. Knowing the signs of NPD can save so many people from heartache and from losing themselves.
Definitely can spare you from having to uselessly love people and needless sacrifice lol
the worst part of dealing with one is not knowing. after kicking her to the curb for the last time, i got my education totally by chance. it was nice of jesus to throw me that bone. with understanding, comes closure.
All people trapped in a narcissistic relationship don’t know until they have or are removed from the relationship
My wife has lost her brother to his narcissistic wife and it has put so much pressure on the family and they've basically had to mourn the loss. Shes systematically turned him against everyone. She's what this video described as a vulnerable narcissist and it's incredibly destructive.
We all hope one day he'll wake up and realise how she has manipulated him and poisoned the family with her victim mentality.
Narcissist's are, in my opnion, far worse than a lot of other personality issues. And it seems this current state of the world is producing more and more
coverts are really hard to spot, especially if you come from a place of empathy and compassion yourself, it is very hard to see and understand it is all manipulation and all one-way.
Also there is a trauma bond, where you get addicted to it.. I think he has to eventually realize it on his own. I think when shit in life really hits the fan, he will realise she will not be there at all and wont even care, hopefully that will be enough.
🎉true
Absolutely ❤
Exactly. This world is producing more and more. It's almost the new society. The day of old are dead and gone.
Well not everybody has perfect parents so any emotional turmoil in a childs life is gona create holes in thier developement I grew up with 2 narsistic parents but luckily had a good strong family otherwise who pulled me through but I agree with todays society and absent parents or in fact just useless parents we will defo see a rise in ppl with phychological problems and as I always say to my hubby these ppl will b our carers some day soon 😮😮😮
Reading the comments from other survivors of narcissistic abuse is somehow very therapeutics. Thank you all for sharing 🙏 ❤️
It's not therapeutic because the victim narcissists find themselves here, and this reaffirms their delusion that it's everyone else that is the problem.
It is a form of validation after years of invalidation.
I think it’s nice to know there are other people out there who truly understand what this type of abuse is like. They have walked that road too. It’s an ugly, dark, painful road.
My father was my narcissistic abuser, my mom his enabler.
He runs a “church” /cult in a small town where I grew up. From when I left home until later in my adulthood, I healed and recovered, set boundaries around them and their cult members, and live in that truth today.
@@bwb003 well done. I believe it's evil spirits. They offer control to the abuser and they snap it up and become their teacher the spirit. I don't believe you're born with it it happens by the choices you make the invites the evil in. IE mediums witchcraft sorcery, pharmaceuticals... Money dust as a example. Jesus is the messenger off god you ever find yourself in this again. You call out his name and he'll send all the help you need. I am testimony to it.
To all the Scapegoats who survived a narc household, please know that YOU are amazing! YOU are enough, you are worthy, you are a true survivor.
I wish you healing and peace. Most of all I wish you self love and to be loved without fear.
I was the black sheep 😂
@@nickieglazer33 Black Sheep here as well -)
Thank you 🙏
Narcissism is a spectrum of negative behaviors of which most people fall into the first 25%. My experience with both victim and covert Narcissists is essentially a false self run by their egos. Neither accepts accountability nor responsibility for their actions despite how much harm they do to others. In both cases how they present themselves is used to manipulate and gaslight others to seek control over others to feed their egos. They are takers to the point that partners, children, and others in the relationship can eventually be sucked dry of their energy, self-esteem and physical health trying to appease their bottomless needs. A true Narcissist has no conscience of how they harm people because they think they're entitled to whatever they can get and will drop the relationship at the first sign of the person realizing what they're truly like or when better feed comes along. To everyone here wondering if they're a Narcissist and are horrified by that thought, the ability to self analyze takes you out of that definition. A Narcissist wouldn't care.
This is a good explanation 👍🏼
Great summary
Those last 2 sentences are a relief. Thank you
@@klehman4832 This sounds like a psychopath description.
@@peterkingham You're welcome 🙂
Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable source here in Australia. Really need!
dr.zachary3 is the man
On Instagram?
Yes
Psychedelic is the answer to most severe anxiety and depression. The use of magic mushrooms completely helps one get over depression and makes you feel like yourself.
It’s time to realize that you have the ability to change 1 person in your life and that is you. Don’t let the way others treat you define you. Live and Learn. ❤
Since my divorce I learned of vulnerable narcissists. And she fits it to a tee. And I with my high empathy was a perfect victim to her tendencies. It doesn’t bother me when people blow up at me because I know they have the problem and I understand that they are mad because they are hurting. But this was the window through which I allowed her to treat me ever and ever more poorly. Throughout our 8 yr relationship and marriage, I hear the words ‘sorry’ from her a total of once. And that was because someone was mediating an argument for us. She could not avoid it.
It was a learning experience for me. She would win arguments just with nuclear weapons-never with truth. And I refused to go that far, yet she never broke my spirit. And this is why our relationship could not work in the end. She really needed someone who folds completely to get along with.
Now I am more aware what to look for for red flags. With the vulnerable narcissist, you aren’t going to see red flags at first. But you will see amber flags-even more subtle. And those turn into red ones -and those turn into a catastrophe LOL.
I am learning that empathy and compassion do not mean you don’t create clearly delineated boundaries and let others cross them. It’s a hard lesson for someone like me.
Look, I can’t even feed my cat properly. She comes in and gives me the cuddles and goes to her food dish even though she just ate. And I say no. No. No. Well…okay. Just this once. And now she has the most unproductive eating habits and it’s my fault. LOL
I resonate with every sentence! I am the same way and I lived the exact same for 17 years only because I could insulate my daughter from it. Turns out, not very well. I left a little over two years ago because she caught covid and blamed her marriage with me for almost dying from it. While she was in the hospital for 6 weeks, the home became peaceful and my daughter and I reconnected despite my wife's best efforts. Since I left it has been glorious!!!!! You've never seen someone so happy to loose $200k in equity and assets lol.
I'm glad you are free from it brother! its like being freed from prison - i've never going back
You may be Codependent
You have excellent self-awareness.
Great comment, totally true.
🙏🏻Blessings to Heal! ☀️🕊🍃
Have Taken Dr. Campbell’s Intro to Psych course on Peterson Academy and he is a great teacher! First time seeing him out of that setting and feel like I’m watching my professor from college, Very surreal what they have been able to achieve with the online courses. Am proud to consider my self a student of his!
What a perfect and poetic definition. A prisoner of whim.....a creature of whim. Yes: You can't be selfish when you have no self.
Demonic robots is what they are.
Thank you Dr. Peterson for all you do , the list of ways you help people on a daily basis through your videos is astronomical. ❤
Having dealt with a parent who i highly suspect as being a vulnerable narcissist, it's sneaky. Everytime they do something wrong and are confronted, they have a dozen reasons on hand why they're the victim (ex: my childhood was this or my own parent did that). Though after the hundreth time going thru that routine, you finally start seeing it as the deflection it is. A smoke screen to hide that they dont care they hurt you; they're the only one to ever experience hurt; you, the actual victim, have no right to your emotions. The vulnerable narcissist gets to feel sad, not you.
I dealt with someone this week who fits this M.O. Total gaslighting when confronted. The problem they created is my fault.
Those last two lines describing their mentality are absolutely freaking beautiful. Thank you for voicing what I have struggled to articulate.
Last year my husband and toddler were harassed and eventually attacked by a drug-seeker in the street; we have never been in this position before and were naturally horrified, so after reporting the incident to the police we then turned to our family to share our story and get some comfort. Everyone messaged us back with sympathy and asked us if we were okay, but my sister was silent. When I asked her if she had read my message or heard about the incident, she informed me that she was punishing me with her silence. She has been feeling lonely lately and was hoping to shake that depressing feeling by having everyone together at Christmas. Over 40 members of my family attended that Christmas party, but despite the fact that my sister knows quite a few of them very well, she was still hurt that I didn't make it to the party despite the fact that I don't have a car, that my dad lives in another town completely outside of my local transit options, and he was unable to pick up my family and I as per usual because he was busy playing host. I literally had no way of attending the event. However, because I made her feel left out and she didn't get to see her 'beloved' nieces at Christmas in the manner she wanted that somehow gave my sister the right to leave us out of her thoughts and concerns during a time of crisis. I told her, "sorry sister, but you don't get to pretend to 'love and miss your nieces' while simultaneously saying nothing upon hearing a drug-user tried to kidnap one of them." My sister even had the gall to try defending the drug-user, saying we shouldn't have spread her image around to our friends and family in order to identify her as someone not safe or stable enough to be around kids. "You shouldn't have recorded her when she was high and vulnerable"; sorry, but being high and vulnerable does not save you from being recorded so the police and fellow citizens may have you identified as someone who is a danger to themselves and others.
We have since moved. My sister has not been allowed to step foot in my new house, she will not be invited to come meet my new baby who is due to be born next week, and when we are forced together at the occasional family gathering my husband and I are polite (for the benefit of my other family members) but distant when dealing with her.
@@toniduval4350 yep, they are always the victim and you are always the bad guy. It's kindof a miracle how that works..
I remember with my ex, when I am late (which almost never happens), she was pissed. When she was late (which always happens) and i said something about it I was the bad guy 'I try to make myself look good for you, that takes time, you don't even care about that!'.
It is still mind boggling that somehow when she did something wrong and I brought it up, I ended up needing to defend myself and in the end she would be pissed with me and completely painted me the bad guy and would not talk to me for weeks.
They are impossible to deal with if you want to keep your boundaries and a healthy balance of give and take. To them a healthy balance and boundaries is being abusive towards them.
This scaringly sounds like a lot of what modern day women are being encouraged and nurtured to be.
Spot on!
These two types are well-illustrated in C. S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce,” which I just finished and highly recommend!
I LOVE that title. One of my favorites. ❤
Thank you for recommending! I’m going to check it out.
Yeah🎉 to reading the older authors.
This is exactly the time I discovered my folks were narcs (and was a great divorce as it got messy and vultures waiting) and fully supported their new narc partners. Shame it happened in 1984, cos that’s when the doublespeak began
The tiger and the snake. Both dangerous, but one attacks and usurps power while the other slithers insidiously into the garden. Battering ram technique vs sneaky fucker technique.
Therefore a middle ground truthfully cease to exist? I'm curious about the human probability of intellect
@@ReconcilemE Correct, there is no middle ground with these people. They have adopted a series of extreme habits and emotional reactions that only make sense in their own mind based on the unjustified trauma that happened to them. They live in a constant thought of people are out to get them, there is always an agenda, they can trust no one. It becomes self-sabotaging and self-victimization to the point that normal healthy interactions are seen as slights or insults. In their mind someone is always trying to control them even when it is not happening. Either you are someone they can benefit from so long as you aren't against them in any way like even disagreement OR you are a sworn enemy that needs crushing. A middle ground means there is empathy, accountability, reasonable sacrifice, courtesy, and respect.
Narcissists are a Black Hole; everything goes in, and nothing comes out.
Trump 🐯
Kamala 🐍
Great comparison!!
😂 That's a perfect description. In fact, I gad someone call my n family member a battering ram. They are quite correct!
Understanding what narcissism is is half the battle. Implementation of the tools to fight against narcissism is the other half. Thank God He revealed this personality defect in the last few years.
Ive heard the words" everything would turn to shit if i wasn't here" after 3 months of her working away. My son and i had the best times of our life. School, dinner together, some tv, bed at normal time, wake him up, school on time. Footy at weekends. Y'know like a normal person
Beautiful. Sorry to hear. Hang on till he's at least 18 or older before you divorce.
that was you q to get rid of her, and continue being happy.
Take her in the pooper!! Buy gold and silver don’t let her know. Look broke so she can’t take you to the cleaners. Go to the casino so you look like you have a problem
That’s something I used to say to my ex husband all the time! That his behavior just wasn’t normal, nothing felt NORMAL! And that’s all I ever wanted was just a normal quiet peaceful life. They don’t have the capability of just being normal. They’re not like us!
@@ShalomISmyname constant mayhem. hamster wheel of insanity.
Excellent point to raise this distinction, as most people wrongly assume that narcissists are per definition extroverted, loud and aggressive.
My experience with one of the neurotic types is that they are the exact opposite. Indeed the role of victimhood, whereby the person is constantly diminishing himself to find reasons for both self-pity, as well as drawing attention with the purpose of having others pity on him.
This creates a feeling of importance ("I am the most important person here because I'm the one that is hurt!"), compensating for the lack of love this person is feeling from the world, probably due to neglect since childhood.
In a sense it is the opposite of how most people think narcissists are, which is the extroverted type that wants to shine and revels in attention for perceived excellence, fueling his ego even further and being rewarded for the effort to provoke his environment. The neurotic narcissist gets rewarded for being pitied, like a beaten dog crawling to the alpha so the alpha can "lick his wounds".
This type of narcissist is possibly more dangerous, as you do not immediately notice this trait due to its false humility. The person is still extremely egocentric and is quite purposeful in getting attention, but does it in a more subtle way.
My experience is with one such person that goes even so far as to sacrifice a family member, just to get the attention of any random person. He lives only in the moment, zero loyalty to family, friends or country, constantly seeking instant gratification through playing the victim.
This type is also self destructive: if you only find purpose by being the victim, it actually becomes a better outcome to lose in any given situation, because the negative outcome gives better reward. And since losing does not build self confidence, the person will give less and less effort into any task in life. When there is a family to take care of, this person will pull down the family into this deep pit, partly to have constant feedback and partly because he cannot bear to see people living differently and have self confidence. The neurotic narcissist hates people with self confidence, because he envies their positive reinforcing pattern of gaining strength through sacrifice.
They are often the fastest (and best) at weaponising victimhood. We have one in our PTSD support group and her manipulative shenanigans are top-tier. 😵💫
one thing they are champions of, is self destruction. it took me a long time to conclude how something so self centered, can also be so self destructive? it just did not add up? they go burnt earth policy on everything they come in contact with out of hate, this hate goes so far as to self hate. they hate themselves, just as much as they hate the world, hate you, hate everything, hence the self destruction. they fully know right from wrong, choosing wrong every time.
You nailed it! I had a malovent narc for years… left me in pieces.
Then the covert came up and seen me laying on the ground … oh perfect victim… and I married it. Have spent half the time as my ex, but the atrocities of the covert are actually MUCH worse than the loud ones… so cunning. Playing ignorant is a favorite card to pull for these types as well.
@@Adam-the-rock-hound Playing ignorant, in my experience, is denial of reality. More specifically, an avoidance of them having to look in a mirror, terrified of what they might see.
People who have become like this have the almost impossible task of facing themselves for a lifetime of mental torture towards others, as well as the possible option of stepping out of self-imposed victimhood. When people associate themselves with their behaviour, in this case someone wants to be the victim as it is the only way they can relate to their life, the option of breaking this pattern and actually taking responsibility and doing something constructive that costs effort, is like denying their very existence. It puts them in a state of angst, a feeling of being utterly lost without a place in the world, because if you find out about yourself that your previous life is founded on destruction, it is as if you did not exist. And that they will have to start from scratch, like a child, naked and alone. The fear of most gambling addicts: having to admit to the losses instead of gambling on with the thought that "this one last time it will have made all previous losses worthwhile". Most people cannot handle such existential fears and will regress into their defeatist self.
I'm not even sure whether someone who lived his life like this can be helped, even by therapy. Certainly not beyond a certain age. The person I know would not even be willing to go into therapy, not even family councelling.
The best thing in my experience is to minimize ties. You cannot feed a troll that lives off your attention. They will do anything to gain this attention, all the way to blackmail and coercion, but the only way is to ignore them. And when you have joint commitments, like working groups or family members to take care of, you need to make sure you have your own agenda and leave the other out of that. Even when it goes at the cost of your relation with the others in the group or family members to some extent.
@@masterpep7218 💯… I was referring to when they actually know a hundred percent, but play dumb to avoid trouble.
“I didn’t know we were together when I cheated.”… is one I got from a girl who was telling me the world… one example. I have tons.
Another subtle analysis on narcissism.....is getting better and better our understanding about it thanks to honest psychologists like yourselves who are trying to study, honestly, this form of mental disorder. Thank you
The main distinguishing factor among personality types is their ability for honest introspection
The true narcissist hurts people intentionally. And has a mapped out plane to destroy a certain individual. That individual usually has something to take or destroy. The target could be a master at his craft and knows it. That makes him aware and confident. And humble if there a master. This person isn’t hurting anyone intentionally. The narcissist is intentionally hurting the civilian. Or target. The narcissist knows the end result of the relationship. The target doesn’t , unless there aware of what a true narcissist is, and how they operate. It’s the same game different faces …. This was my least favorite talk and guest of Jordan. Looking forward to meeting you soon Dr. thank you for your efforts in the subject today.
Dr. Peterson hit the nail on its head at the end. That's why yoga of action is very crucial. By dissolving yourself into the action, one can be free from those self consciousness. Taoist defined this as wu wei. In Gita, it's yoga of action. By doing this, you become less attached to things and see the pattern in things and achieve wisdom.
And that's why Dr. Peterson mentioned many times the importance of doing things (action) where you lose track of time.
Maybe it's just me, but the personality traits used to define and describe narcissism seem to be common to the fallen human condition. We are all self centered. We all envy. We all feel we are injured more than we injure. Better than trying to box in what a narcissist is or does, it would serve each of us - and all of us - to look more honestly at our own thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors and work on improving those.
agreed. I dont think there is a personality trait that is muted in any person. If there is a catalyst for adopting narcissistic tendencies, its entertainment and social media
Victim blaming
I have extensive experience with narcissistic people and YES their traits are all human traits. They’re human. But there is a significant difference between a person with NPD and a healthy human.
The biggest indicator is a consistent lack of empathy. But that can be faked so it’s not always easy to spot.
Children are quite narcissistic because their prefrontal cortex isn’t developed.
A narcissist must have some developmental damage there due to a lack of healthy parental attachment because in many ways (when the mask drops) they’re extremely like little children
I think observing yourself is the key 👍
The difference from what you said which is very correct in your observation to what a narcissist is; they believe they do not need to work on themselves at all because YOU are the problem and everyone else IS the problem. If OTHER people would just get their shit together then THEY would feel better about doing better. They will scapegoat a person for being a human with flaws if they can get away with it. They have zero apology for their actions even when they are caught with hard evidence. All treatment methods are rendered ineffective to a person who doesn't think they need to improve. That's the difference. It is an extreme thinking that takes over their entire life and sabotages everything and deeply scars many people close to them.
Self-obsessed and depressed being the same thing is a great observation by Dr. Peterson.
i’m confused does that mean people that are depressed are narcissistic?
@@tulinbeyduz920No. People who have chronic pain and people who go through traumatic experiences ( divorce, rape, plane crashes, car accidents, etc) also get depression.
I like the way narcissism was explained and how the distinctions were made between what it really is and how narcissists are motivated. I have had life changing encounters with narcissists. My mom might have counted as one, but she was was neither good nor bad all at once. Her constant mood changes and outbursts due to Multiple Sclerosis attacks made her one of the most unstable people I knew growing up. And, then she would come around and be amazing. To me she was more good than bad, but if I were honest I spent most of my life walking on eggshells. I would often and get blamed when her condition got worse and we would argue and was treated like I was killing her. Her episodic episodes and crying for hours on end gave me CPTSD and issues. It was so bad that I decided that I would never have kids. Two people in the family had it on a distant side of the family and there was the chance that I could have gotten it ir passed it on. But, I got bipolar instead. She did weird things that seemed selfish but we were always forced into not talking about it or exposing it.
When I had foot surgery in highschool on both my feet, I was told when I should start walking in my feet and applying full pressure before the doctor said I could. When I burned my hand and had to apply silvadine on my hand and wrap it daily after they cut away the skin, my mom made me ration the amount of medicine I put on my hand. Her excuse was that she needed it to use if ever she would get burned wthe kitchen and couldn't get any without a doctor's prescription. When I graduated from college, she wanted to give away my backpack to some else claiming they needed it and I wouldn't need it anymore. I bought the backpack with my own money. But, she was seen as the person at church always loaning things out. She was different at home than she was with friends and acquaintances. And, I could go on for days talking about all the things she did that hurt family members or even myself. But, most of us just covered it up and only complained to those directly effected. We believed the legions on her brain from MS gave her rage beyond measure and made her moody and controlling. But, it didn't lessen the damage. All it did was gave a reasonable explanation for it. But, there were time when the was amazing and charismatic. She had a very high IQ and practically had a photographic memory. Her narcissistic traits always seemed different and I never wanted to put her in the same category until I encountered and learned of different kinds of narcissists.
My manager is a narcissist. Her treatment of me over the years was so bad that it lead to a nervous breakdown and hospitalization. Without references I lied in many circles about knowing someone who had experienced the whims of a malignant narcissist, when in reality it was I that was treated so poorly that I couldn't talk about it. Tables have turned and they are no longer able to come to my desk and regularly put me down calling me crazy, special, or stupid. Had a therapist once that tried to compare my mother with that manager, and I almost stopped seeing them. I told them they were wrong and listed all the things my manager did that even my mother never would. She literally enjoyed putting people down.
Once she cursed at me so many times that I counted how many times she cursed at me and the computer to see who she was truly angry at. I made the mistake of telling her that and she hated me ever since saying she was offended. 50 different people in therapy groups used to swear when the heard what that manger did or said to me. And, to this day I am still in anxiety groups because of her. I had no close friends at work to protect myself and keep myself from saying too much to the wrong person. So my work reputation suffered because she did so much to tarnish my reputation with important people. I produced excellent work, am responsible for 40% of the improvements in my department since I started, and I got a raise when on medical leave. I make technical documents in between all my assigned work, and almost all in person training in the department has been eliminated for last six years. My work has kept me safe and even made management look good. But, all I have graduated to is tolerated. I am so creative that I have given suggestions that other people have used as their own ideas, even on if my managers did something with it six months later. People outside of the department like me, but I always fear my narcissistic manager. Even though HR has limited her access and other things, it could all blow up at any moment. No one has ever treated so poorly in my life, and that's saying a lot. Because I have been though alot for some with a moderate ACE score.
That is my experience with highly extraverted and malignant narcissists. But, I have someone else in my life that I consider the weak narcissist. In my anxiety group is a woman with Borderline Personality Disorder. I think I have met 4 people with borderline, but this woman is the only one so self obsessed and oblivious to how little they consider others. Who knows maybe her ACE score was between a 9-10. Her mother was controlling and sounds like she was abusive, maybe even a malignant narcissist. And , 40+ years later this woman is still messed up. As someone who has actually been to a psych ward multiple times, I can say this matter of factly without judgement. I have observed a lot, but this woman is the weakest and neediest person I have ever met.
She won't stop talking about herself and every thought that pops into her mind has to be vocalized at that exact moment. She cannot wait and everything has to be said right when she thinks about it or else she gets upset. She talk throughout the entire anxiety group talking over people and just talk even when there is a moment of silence. Twi separate times someone mentioned that she had an issue with talking out of turn and how they wanted her to wait. Each time she blew up yelling and crying before storming out of the room for the day. No apologies, to understanding, no listening to anyone else ever happens. People just let her do whatever she wants in group otherwise she will throw a tantrum. And, ahe has a history of people cutting her off.
She sees herself as a victim in every situation and wants someone to validate every utterance and put all the attention on her. She is triggered my everything. She almost had a breakdown hearing about something that happened to me, and ahe acted as if it happened to her. She was triggered and was now haunted by past memories. She carries the past with her.
Her daughter hasn't spoken to her in almost a decade. She feels suicidal over this and has voiced it, but not ince did ahe ever mention asking her daughter what she felt and what ahe could do to make it right. Her best friend left her. And, she told be about how a police officer told her that he hated her and hated dealing with her. Everything is an impulse. And, she is motivated to look for danger and sympathy everywhere. Her own therapist cannot even walk past the door of the group without her yelling out his name. She is fragile and completely shut off from self reflection. She has worked on DBT and other techniques, but I don't think they will ever help her with relationships if ahe is too fragile to accept any feedback and responsibility.
All of thesea people are narcissistic in their own way. But, there is a difference in the selfcenteredness. One type enjoys seeing people suffering, and the other can see nothing but their own pain. The weak woman wouldn't hurt anyone with intent, she is just reacting to not being able to regulate. The malignant type. Well, that is what Dr. Ramani is for. She helps victims understand the psychology. And, Dan O'Connor helps people respond to narcissists and get respect. I learned more about assertiveness from his communication videos than I ever did in years of thearpy. Therapists suck at dealing with passive communicators. I have literally been scolded for not being assertive instead of just being shown how. I am so aggreable that I walked out with a messed up haircut this week and still tipped well.
People know how to identify narcissists, but very dew know how to safely deal with them.
Listening further, this is an incredible mirror to my professional experience; when I did finally quit, my VN boss actually threw his pen on the desk at me, like a toddler. I was astounded at the lack of self-control during a professional conversation, but now that I'm learning more about this it makes complete sense.
they are butt hurt 3yur olds living in a adults body.
If you have had to deal with a true narcissist, you know. If you haven’t you are truly blessed. 2 Timothy 3
You should do an interview with Dr. Ramani
Yes please
She won’t, too liberal
Dr. Sam Vaknin would be even better, he is truly an expert
Dr. Ramani is great, her book helped a lot.
@@sjplus36 and he is a narcissist..
My older sister is a manipulative covert narcissist. My younger sister is a psychopathic narcissist. After decades of psychological abuse, I completely cut ties with both of them. Sad but necessary for my self-preservation.
Nice family!
Are you 🎉
@bejoyfulmemo Good question.
@@sandwich-breath Both parents passed 10 years ago. Father was a narcissist with anger issues.
Mom was a wonderful wife and mother. She tried her best to love and protect us. Very little was understood about narcissists and mental illness back then.
you thinking you're better off without someone else in your life is 100% sign of narcissism. You yourself are a bona fide narcissist. No matter what you tell yourself to feel better, it doesn't matter. It is what it is
One way of how to stop being the victim of a narcissist or narcissistic family is to take the huge step of isolating yourself from the abuse: putting up and tolerating toxic people fuels them and creates an even bigger monster.
Those with huge amounts of solid mental strength can ignore the effects of narcissistic behaviour. But others will need to leave the area, the source of toxicity, which means going to live in a different place - which I did twice. The first time I attempted it was by moving to a different neighborhood.
But it wasn't sufficient: I eventually had to move to a different country, which was a huge step to take, a huge upheaval involving great risk but it worked: I saved myself from toxicity that would have crushed me into small pieces.
Even after some 27 yrs away from the controlling crap i had to deal with in my home life growing up on a difficult visit to the family home explaining some difficult marital issues i was having i got upset and was told i was not allowed to cry as we dont have that here ... i still after a year from this being said to me am stunned as to the lvl of control my father thinks he has over me even to try to control wether i cry .my mother has allways allowed his controlling ways and sits by and just watches what happens and says nothing.
There are many more examples but i would be typing for wks even now as my father is dying bedridden from cancer he thinks he is still able to control others its amazing how this compulsion has taken over his life .i do feel pity but try to avoid to much contact as it is just so poisonous and toxic. Mostly i have noticed it seems to be driven by his own very deep anxieties .
And can be made much worse by a stubborn streak a mile wide even to his own detrement even when very wrong he will plow ahead regardless of negative outcome, he is always right in his eyes and everybody else knows nothing . Very very sad and i think this came from his mother when he was growing up as i never saw any of this in my grandfather but deffo traits in my grandmother .so behaviour learnt growing up and then made worse by himself as adult .
Implacable…such a great word! Jordan has a talent for descriptive, accurate language unburdened by trendiness.
Reading the comments so decided to comment myself. It must be noted that only 3-5% of people are actual narcissists (personality disorder type). It is very unlikely that everyone's problems are because of that small demographic. We certainly all exhibit narcissistic and immature behaviors at times, but to hear this discussion and think to yourself "Oh, he was a narcissist. He was the problem" is the very form of narcissism that they are talking about. Focusing on all the bad things that people did to you and how their behavior affected you is the self-centeredness that is making you miserable. Not meaning to hurt any feelings but I simply hope my brutal honesty helps people take a considered look at themselves instead of simply accepting that their feelings are true and looking outward for blame.
Narcissism is a spectrum (in severity of symptoms) and only when your score is above a certain threshold it is recognized as "full clinical NPD" (like over 70% of points p.ex.). It is estimated that something like 10-20% of the population have a narcissistic personality structure, but only a fraction of them have full blown NPD, e.g. the full feature set and in a severe form all at once. That makes it cumbersome to talk about it properly.
And you’re in the wrong group here saying stuff like that.
You haven’t suffered enough at a narc’s hand or been repeatedly abused by a malignant narcissist parent. You haven’t hurt enough or you wouldn’t be in here saying stuff to people you don’t know. Go gaslight somewhere else.
Been subjected to narcissistic people ALL my life. When I was away from the main perpetrator- my egg donor, you need to fulfill the job description to be called ‘mother’ - I started to develop.
When I left my second husband, I realised just how bad things had been.
First month, I felt such a relief and was able to think 💭
Second month, an immense improvement on the first month and I was so so happy.
Third month, even better than the last two months. The cotton wool I had for brains was almost cleared.
BUT, at this point I became very, very depressed. Why?
For two reasons, I hadn’t realised just how bad things had been and next I realised there was still a great deal yet to clear.
It took me the next 2 months to deal with those two reasons.
Slow but sure wins the race though
Never, never, never, never, ever give up. 🙏🏻💚🕊️🌻
Describes me perfectly. Subjugated to my own whims and emotional states, in sacrifice of my future self and others. I try to face this reality time and time again, never coming to full realization. If you suffer this way, may God help you.
Truly narcissistic people never admit they have a problem. I can see that there's hope for you because you demonstrated awareness. Something a narcissist would never do.
@@MilestonemongerI respectfully disagree. I personally know two vulnerable narcissists as well as a biblical example (King Saul) who readily admit they do wrong and harm others while subjecting others to their short-sighted whims. However they never change, even when amply warned that they are about to hurt undeserving innocents again. It's as if they genuinely don't understand that recognizing their bad behavior does not excuse their bad behavior - we are expected to just unconditionally accept and include them as they are, no matter how much they hurt us.
@StephenMarinelliI like what you said here.
@@Milestonemongeryou are grossly misinformed, likely from listening to the idiots on youtube.
Look into adult ADHD
JP is a human, and everything he's gone thry, his pain, also strengethns me as much if not more than his old college lectures, opinions, thoughts, insights, mistakes, admissions, and books, and all else. Thanks JP. It does help. I also discovered Robert Greens's books thru JP. Superheroes of logos, pathos, and ethos. World is better for them having spoken up through their pain.
Social Media increases narcissistic realm for those for who are narcissists. It’s like their own personal social stage. There they will indirectly expose their tendencies on full blast. Want to know a suspect narcissist, keep an eye on them on social media. Also in the entertainment industry you will also see them. In that atmosphere you see people who don’t have real talent think they deserve a Grammy.
"Self-conscienceness is indistinguishable from negative emotion..." 💯 🎯
Thank you for sharing this conversation!
My thoughts 💭 having experiences with people diagnosed as narcissists.
Yes, extroverts, grandiosity, envy, neuroticism, jealousy, manipulators, charming Charlie syndrome, etc.
Narcissistic personality traits exemplify a level of darkness that prioritizes the self in every aspect-no matter what others say, think, or do to try to help them.
The self-love of a narcissist is nauseating, as their ridiculous acts are to the detriment and peril of anyone in their lives. The narcissist believes that they are charming and should be treated as a core turnoff to lead people to walk away immediately, as narcissists deny and plea bargain their actions of folly are of bitterness, contempt, sarcasm, and self pity falsehoods.
Biblical convictions and values matter nothing to them whatsoever and they are utterly unashamed of their immaturity, manipulative behaviors, and outright spiritual decay they aspire to achieve.
Self-loathing, and no ability to comprehend a healthy relationship or life, love, and so real authentic relationships escapes them, and so many chase after life happiness, even if they feel they must control it. Sadly traumatizing events characteristic of most narcissists upbringing during formative younger years, hence why they lack any wisdom, empathy and compassion for others. They lack understanding of what it means to behave like an adult, and groping for attention throughout their lives becomes a patten, as they seek to be loved even in wrongful ways, therefore growing up to become a trustworthy partner isn’t something they desire to achieve.
Anyone who has a biblical approach and demonstrates greater wisdom is an annoyance to them, as they don’t want to see their dark souls being exposed to them, yet they have no fear of doing the will of the evil 😈 one. It’s a jealous depth of love that doesn’t reside within them that makes them seek out their victims.
CS Lewis also wrote about narcissism and it helped me tremendously to identify the traits. I have an older brother who is manipulative and has a superiority complex and suffers from an inferiority complex at the same time. When I finally understood he was a narcissist, I stopped trying to gain his acceptance because my success threatened his superiority. I had to be the loser so that he could rise above. Even after understanding it, for years I still tried to serve him and be loyal to him. Finally I am a stronger person who won’t completely crumble at his humiliating criticisms. I just have to remember not to be the one to reach out first. I know. It is sad.
Narcissism is a spectrum just like BPD and Autism. I wish more psychologists and mental health providers understood this. Survivors like myself who have CPTSD need a very tailored approach to trauma healing and therapy based on our lived experience.
There’s more of a spiritual aspect to narcissism than anything. They need an exorcism more than they need a therapist.
hey!, check out:
Dr Ramani
Tamie Joyce
Dr. Wise
Crappy Childhood Fairy
Lie... there are no specters, either you have them or you don't... Sam Vaknin explains this very well
💯… problem is the world is run by narcs. And most mental health professionals… well they simply are there for a paycheck and to gatekeep
My self conscience / neuroticism is usually about guilt of doing something wrong or doing something to offend someone else/hurt them. I am empathetic towards those around me but especially to make sure my own self is perceived as acceptable and that I haven’t done anything wrong. Which is hard to distinguish whether it is self preservation or the well being of others that is the motivator
Thank you for the content. Good for self reflection and, hopefully, for inflection.
Yes I know what a narcissit is. So far nobody has found a way wake them up to their own loosing strategy which takes down many good people with them.
All my life I looked internally for answers about my personality. Learning that I'm a vulnerable narcissist is helpful. I could never pay attention to what people were saying to me because I'd always be thinking about my facial expression or whether I look anxious, scared or confident. It caused me to do very poorly in school. I'd get lost in most conversations because my mind drifted back to myself instead of paying attention to what was being said. That would cause me to worry about what to say next because I'm lost in the conversation, which causes non sequiturs and awkward moments. Then I feel like a failure and poor me so I hid from the world. It's not until recently as I've gotten older that I started growing out of this. What a waste of opportunity it all was. Never did I consider it was narcissism. Just didn't cross my mind. Much easier to reframe things in my mind when I consider it that way.
it sounds to me like high masking autism not narcisism !!!
we are oftenly confused with narcissistic because all of the self centred behaviours and worries about the responses we project out in the world and not paying attention to conversation because we're in a headspace
please do your research before labeling yourself and start warping what really was happening to fit into that case be open to explore that other possibility , take an online test its free and orienting ,i've been studying narcissism for a while now , and your case doesn't sound at all like one ! chances are you are a high functionning autistic
Sounds like that hyper neuroticism and crippling insecurities. You didn't really describe narcissism there mate. Sounds like a confidence issue. Often stems from negative reinforcement when you were younger
Thank you for this insight.
I've heard this framed as narcissistic self process. ( From gestalt theory) .
Sounds more like ADHD. Narcissists aren't overly concerned about how their expressions come across because if you disagree you are the enemy trying to hurt them or their reputation by saying they are wrong and they can't be wrong because that means they are vulnerable which makes them a victim all over again.
So many videos about this issue say there is no management of a narcissist. They say to flee while you can. However, I feel there may be a way to establish boundaries and utilize empathy and the orchestration of reflection in the family. It doesn’t cure or solve the problem, but allows for functionality and the expression of emotion. I’m going to lee thinking about this… I’m sure it’s possible.
My sons wife has had my son and grandson murder me, rob me and erase me. She is the most malignant person I’ve ever known. My heart is broken.
They murdered you?
Look on the bright side, dude.
“They can kill you, but they can’t eat you.”
Being obsessed with yourself and being miserable is the same thing! Brilliant truth ❤
Super heavy stuff sprinkled throughout this short clip. Awesome discussion.
Person realized that others believe their lies in fact, like them even more from fear, this power eats itself and person becomes a Narcissist, yet never sees their sins ~
i love jordan
I love me some Dr. Jordan Peterson!
Holy crap this just hit 3 hours ago. RUclips is flooded with garbage and tons of opinions on this, with zero precision and research. Narcisssm is also a thing we fear being ourselves, and also want to label all our enemies as. I have theories and ideas, but so glad to hear from Peterson and this expert.
Here’s a piece of advice for all the narcissistic, disagreeable people out there-like myself: pursue a career in the arts. Before I got seriously into singing and visual arts, I was, in a word, a mess. My husband jokes that I have a ‘small circle’ of 300 friends, but honestly, social interaction is my thing-and I genuinely enjoy it!
If you don’t channel that energy into something public and creative, you risk becoming a total disaster-whether it’s falling into addiction or turning into a toxic person. But once you dive into a creative field, you’ll feel that restless energy being put where it belongs. Immaturity in narcissistic people is often the same playful spirit you need to create art, write songs, and just enjoy the ride.
Think of it like having a police dog as a couch pet; worrying about a ruined couch isn’t your biggest problem. Thank you, Mr. Peterson, for being the first person to say, ‘Hey, you’re normal-just find your place in the world and live a happy life.’
And who knows? Maybe one of us narcissists will end up writing the song that plays during your first kiss with the love of your life.”
"Self-consciousness is indistinguishable from negative emotion...They're actually the same thing."
Hell is when one is wholely concerned with self.
what makes someone self conscious? i have social anxiety , i grew up with a borderline/narcissistic mom
@@tulinbeyduz920 I am no expert, but I think the ways in a high a person can be one self-conscious are innumerable. If I had to take a stab, it would be like becoming aware of negative possibility leads us to become self-conscious.
There is no causal affect connecting self obsessed and being miserable… self consciousness is indistinguishable from negative emotions .. they are actually the same thing.
This hits the nail on the head.. is exactly why there is no fixing the narcissist! It is who they are.
RUN!
this discussion is way over my head
I recommend watching the full talk , makes it easier to keep up ,
Episode 480 "why nice guys finish last"
Thank you for the insight into ‘whim’. We had a ‘snakes in suits’ experience. The individual had been engaged as a professor - been through interviews etc - and had nothing to prove or gain. On his personal HR sign on document with address, emergency contact and bank details , he wrote PhD from elite US university. He later asserted on grants that he had a doctorate, and was sacked, but there was something to gain by falsifying qualifications. I could never understand why you would falsify qualifications for no gain; a whim (which is dangerous) or an arrogant statement that he believed he could get away with it.
RUclips commercials are now much longer than television on some videos.
I never get one longer than 5 seconds that I'm not able to skip 🤷♂️
Yes I've noticed with Petersons. Videos now the ads are within the video , I pay so I don't see RUclips videos but now they've found a war around it .
I'll just stop watching his videos , although interesting, he is just involved in a massive cash grab and always has been
Use brave browser
I will support every Values that imparted by Doc Peterson... Thank you...
I think the more insidious narcissist is the covert or 'vulnerable' narc. Because they feign empathy and are capable of mirroring the empath.
So cruel. Very warped once you learn who they really are. They seem bent on destroying others self worth.
Glad Covert Narcissism studies on RUclips came out in time for me. It all makes sense now, I never could figure out my family members.
I consider myself a narcissistic individual, but I believe that, if you’re raised with the right values, this mindset can be channeled for good. While most people see narcissism in a negative light, I know that, deep down, someone like me can use it to be a force for positive change. I live each day trying to be kind and help others without expecting anything in return.
You can judge me if you want, but I truly believe that anyone even those with narcissistic traits can genuinely want to help others. I’ve been through a lot, and instead of repeating negative cycles, I choose to be a better person. Take something simple, like giving someone a ride home, even if it’s a long drive I won’t ask for anything in return because the act of helping is enough for me.
I know I struggle with long-term friendships or relationships, but I’ve learned to control my mind, stay positive, and focus on helping others. It’s not about what I get back, but about paying it forward and hoping they’ll do the same for someone else. I’ve had days when I needed help and no one was there, so I choose to do good and make a difference when I can.
Hope no one who has been affected by narcissism takes offense to this. I’m aware this isn’t perfectly worded, as I’m working right now and listening to Jordan Peterson to learn more about both the positive and negative traits of narcissism. I’m trying to understand them better so I can work on myself and become a better man.
Your focus seems to be on others more than yourself. I dub thee cured!
Nice fake out narcy
@@Midnightmjtoker Matthew 7:3
People are quick to judge others but slow to judge themselves.
>Look how great I am this video is about me it's all about me
Yeah, you're definitely on that narc spectrum
Great subject of discussion. Please get together again in greater depth. I would love to hear more... thank you
I think almost everyone I know fits into at least one of these categories.
Bingo.
If a psychiatrist analyzed a million people they will find a million psychiatric diagnoses except themselves.
There you go! Except for these condescending psychologists and "narcissism experts"
Yes, I feel the same way at times and then have to remind myself to look at the functional impact and damages. For example, I can imagine hurting someone when I'm angry, but I don't and if I give off that type of energy I genuinely feel bad. Narcissistic personality is incapable of feeling badly and may hurt with intention to hurt.
The term narcissism is being used too much and people are struggling to pinpoint it, where it begins and ends. This is a red flag. The psychological community is not 100% clear on this because people and social dynamics are complex and inherently multifaceted.
Self awareness about social dynamics in mental, physical and spiritual presentations is helpful. The fact that people can say that children are oftentimes narcissistic and don't feel abused by children and have lifelong trauma tells me we could reframe a lot of narc abuse and walk away. Problem is, many people who are abused by narcs want(ed) connection with a narc and get lost in themselves trying to figure out nonsense. They then make this snippet of experience their identity because life can be so mundane feeling anything at all is a bit of an escape (into trauma unfortunately). This is not an identity, it's trauma that can be processed and integrated with proper time, attention and effort. Taking accountability for engaging with yourself on proper healing is not victim blaming, it's empowerment. Wish everyone time for healthy integration. 🎀
7:09 - 9:00 !!!!
Very valuable truth that’s articulated very well.
Richard Grannon offered one of the best explanations of the difference between
Grandiose (Overt) NPD & Vulnerable (Covert) NPD -
to paraphrase:
"Grandiose Narcissists think they're amazing, and largely, the world agrees with them.
Vulnerable Narcissists think they're amazing, but largely, the world doesn't agree with them".
That's not the case. Neither truly think they're "amazing." I know one diagnosed NPD who I became good friends with, after realizing I myself am ticking one too many boxes of NPD *as well as BPD* ... AND being in a relationship with a man who I strongly believe is NPD who put me through absolute torture. The way he ended the relationship was the reason I was very close to taking my own life. Throughout the relationship, I was just as close. He was able to toy with both sides of my "disorders" and work them to his advantage at will until finally, he had me completely at bottom. I have still not broken free from his grasp emotionally though he cut all communication with me.
I'm disgusted with the "gurus" on the internet who have no idea how to articulate the reality of this disorder.
By my own admission, I do, in truth, see myself as both a victim of NPD to a severe degree, and also see myself as *most likely NPD,* so I can say this. The amount of Narcissists out there is staggering and will only get worse. Some are extremely perceptive and intelligent. Some are not. They do not all act the same and they do not all carry the same traits across the board like a checklist (though some can.) And yes, they CAN have empathy in the form of feeling deeply saddened, and they can be taught that by use of manipulation tactics from a parent who used control tactics that would mold the child into feeling sorrowful. There are way too many "guesses" made by these experts and that's why you see the TRUE experts like Jordan Peterson, even questioning particulars of the behaviors. He will admit he doesn't know everything about the disorder where you then have idiots like Ramani who paint them all the same way yet she has absolutely no understanding of the *depths* of this. Sam & Richard study them to the extreme but Richard is trying to sell something, and Sam identifies himself as king. Be careful what you believe.
@alouise3557 The RG quote was only ever meant as a simple description for the sake of laymen recognising the differences between the 2 disorders.
Obviously this would read differently if it were aimed at a higher level - I.e. replacing 'they're' with 'their false self', at least.
It goes without saying that a p/w NPD wouldn't 'truly' think anything about their true/real/original self.... because depending upon whose research you believe, it either doesn't exist anymore, or is so atrophied as to render it all-but non-existent anyway.
RG & SV are the first to acknowledge the criticisms you levy at them.... and neither point negates the possibility of either of them being correct (that is, those things have no relationship to their potential for correctness / incorrectness).
Very little in this field is agreed upon, or taken as the unquestioned truth -
so claiming one 'expert' as the authority on the matter is misrepresenting the reality of this field of research.
@@NoComment374 "...for the sake of *laymen* recognizing the differences between the two disorders"? Laymen?
I disagree. It was a completely false statement, if he truly did say it. With all did respect, you can't reduce it to something mundane by implying, "well he would be saying more words that would start to become true if he was explaining it to smarter people."
As for your understanding about a "true, real original self," you are assuming that people with this disorder cannot know the difference between their learned behaviors and self reflection. I became friends with one Narcissist who is self aware, and you has been diagnosed and in therapy for years. He's had plenty of time to self reflect and in fact, has contacted me during a few high points of self discovery. He has explained his behaviors in efforts to figure out how and why he had knee-jerk responses to specific situations; how he mitigated a collision course that was about to happen had he responded to those "core beliefs" and then he asked me to help him put the pieces together on what may have led him to this kind of belief. I was present as he began to piece it together, and eventually expressed resentment toward his mother. Not even in therapy had he experienced such a revelation (as his knee-jerk response was the false sense of self, or the "mask" that was so ingrained in him that it was about to lead him to making a very big mistake.) He was able by a split second decision to slow down (so as to avoid risk) and mitigate, and then even take steps to reach out to someone for help.
There are far too many people who are doing nothing more than repeating what everyone else is saying and hoping they sound like an "expert". They claim true Narcissists are beyond help and they have no business saying that. Perhaps it takes something beyond the constantly changing DSM to enlighten people who are using it as a Bible. After all, it's the same source that has been a consistent cause for argument amongst the "experts" and the same people who make decisions as to it's content are the same people who believe people should have the right to call themselves newly invented words to make themselves feel better.
Sometimes we all think too much…
Narcissism (at least to the point of being a severe character flaw) used to seem rather rare. These days it seems like everyone knows a narcissist. Have people gotten worse?
My last relationship was with a narcissist, worst experience of my life and most of the experiences that came from it i feel like people wouldnt even believe 😅
I feel you. Congratulations on leaving that relationship it's the hardest thing to get out off
@@thululindesnothando5720 thank you! That means a lot
@@thululindesnothando5720 thanks, likewise to you if you made it out. Totally felt like someone pulled out the rug from under your sense of self.
Amazing epiphany there Dr Peterson.😮
Most people’s exs are not narcissists, selfish is not a narcissist.
Something that isn't discussed enough is they often pair up: an overt with a covert, or an NPD wth a BPD, etc. Dark personalities often flock to each other, outside of hooking up with co-dependents, the unlucky, etc
@@WhereTheyLayyes they do team up and a narcissistic pile on is the worst and most dangerous people experience possible. They become a cult. Numbers encourages them to greater depths of inhumanity, sadism and atrocity.
@@WhereTheyLay I disagree. I think they need too much, and another narc will also need too much, so this is exception rather then normal.
takers pair with givers, empaths with narcs etc. You can't have two takers in a relationship for very long.
Wish it was true, then they would just abuse each other.
@@WhereTheyLayactually that's not really so. Particularly borderline/ narcissistic low functioning men seek out higher strata women who are hyper empathetic and extremely tolerant. Often it's the high functioning woman's resources which the narcissistic man is after. Borderlines and narcissists are extremely intolerant of anyone with emotional or any other needs so they wouldn't stay with anyone who is "needy" in any way.
@@woy8exactly.
Jordan is always worth listening. Thanks🙏
Narcissism; don't forget projection.
Oh they thrive at projecting
It's nice to see Jordan Peterson in his element, talking about personality types and feeding it back to the Big5. It would be nice to listen more about these extremes and personality. What if somebody would be very extroverted and very neurotic? Is it possible combination?
Hahahaha. I had a RUclips advertisment in the middle of the in-video advertisment.
Examine the anatomy of your motives if you want to get to know yourself
I grew up in the church. A Sunday school lesson was to do good things for others without telling people about the deeds. In church you practice helping others without telling for human reward. We learned to help people because god was pleased.
Taught to store our riches in heaven where it never decays. The bible is a shield against narcissism
It seems that the world actively trains all of us to become self-centred. From an early age.
Instead of self focus (promoted) perhaps we should glance upwards, towards our Creator. Put him first, then other people. How novel eh?
As it not! Thank you, gentlemen. 🙏
Ayn Rand differentiated between selfish person and the selfist person.
Selfist people are 'Be the best you can be, a better you benefits everyone else.'
Selfish people are 'Get all you can get, everyone else be damned."
No she didn’t.
@@ryan_alive
Read her books again. Yeah. She did.
I'm the third, and by far, the best version of narcissist 💪
Why are you not speaking to Dr Ramani?
Dr Ramani's awareness and advice is brutally real and excellent, imho. It's been less than a year before I even heard the term 'covert narcissism' and, after countless hours of listening to her, I'm finally aware and optimistically crawling slowly towards 'happiness' again, big thanks to her.
Because she's not an expert on narcissism in the slightest she has no professional expertise in the area save she has a doctorate in generic psychology
@@AnyaAnnika67 bullshit. She is the expert! She has decades of work with them.
Oh the "narcissism doctor". Give me a break. Why don´t you all get a life
A healthy person who exhibits boundaries and standards is not a narcissist. They just know what they want & deserve. As long as they don’t exhibit envy, jealousy, & toxic behavior
🎉🎉🎉🎉 good oratory
You should interview prof. sam vaknin, he's a a researcher of narsism and is a narsisits he has a more complex understanding of narcissism and their formation..
It seems that the term narcissism is overly used like racism. To the point where it doesn't have any meaning
Not even close. It's misunderstood if anything.
In my opinion, it's imperative to read Otto Kernberg in order to fully understand the nature and spectrum of this "personality disorder".
what does narcissism even mean anymore. Everyone seems to be a secret narcissist nowadays according to all the shifting definitions.
The more of them there are, more business for these "narcissism experts"
The Bible describes them perfectly!
Romans 1:28-32
"Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them".
When Dr Peterson said "be a monster under control" I took it as admittance that we're all narcissists and we should become conscious to it.
Absolutely! Well, I think there is a difference between narcissistic traits and a pathological narcissist. We should absolutely be conscious of it, I think the political left is actually more covert narcissism. I’ve been calling a lot of people out for moral superiority lately.
@@MeadowXRising They are not covert about it at all. Covert implies it is not being openly displayed or acknowledged. They flaunt it, and have for years. They do not care.
@@zeddwulfen7737 I don’t agree. I think there is more of a focus on moral superiority, Virtue signaling, they are more righteous, and it’s not overly or outwardly boastful, which I believe is where the covert narcissistic traits comes in. This behavior operates under the guise of empathy, and high morals. It makes it really hard to challenge without being accused of attacking ideals of compassion, of justice. This is passive aggressive, manipulative, and I find it to be much more insidious.
I always put people first and get hurt by people easy.
The actual, effective solidarity of this is profoundly life changing. I feel a thousand times less insecure with this in my back pocket.
These are great insights, but as someone diagnosed woth narcissistic personality disorder, and some autism/adhd, I have yet to discover an NHS professional who seems to have the slightest idea what a good treatment pathway might be. Outwith Group therapy or 12 steps, suggestions very welcome.
Thank you for discussing the most overused and misunderstood diagnosis in American culture. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting someone misusing this word.
Autism is catching up.
gaslighting and other psychology terminology as well
Yes! When this word comes up, I always think to myself “are we just goi my to use clinical psychology terms casually as if we’re psychologists?” Unless there’s a definition that is less clinical and more casual.
@@NikkiDocherty3174 dead car?
@@Ian-e5y what?
The irony is that narcissists are victims too. As someone who suspects it in himself, I can tell you that Peterson's analysis is absolutely spot on. Neuroticism, whimsical behaviour and self-consciousness are a curse. There are mitigation strategies that can be employed, such as what I call 'fasting', where gratification is simply delayed, as well as ample exercise, but just as one has to eat at some point, the whimsical behaviour, usually centred around alcohol (which mitigates the self-consciousness and facilities the pleasure seeking), will reassert itself very strongly. The 'fast' is largely characterised by immense cynicism, nihilism and anxiety. None of these things are a choice. It is what it is. The only saving grace is that this is buttressed by a degree of empathy and policed somewhat by regret. All a very vicious circle from which escape is impossible.
Narcissism is a dead word now its over used and I find that its a default word for a possible mental health issue so just call it narcissism.
"There isn't a causal connection between being obsessed with yourself an being miserable it's that they're actually the same thing" ... That kinda follows from the assumption that humans suck. We all suck, but the more you focus on yourself and the more you care about yourself, the more you are going to be aware you suck, the more you will care that you suck and the more you will be miserable as a result of your awareness that you aren't what you want to be.
Makes you wish lobotomies were back in vogue 😂
I agree with Dr. Peterson assessment/distinction of what narcissist is as I have dated only narcissists (intentionally).