My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this. Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE. you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber. dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
A fired case is a true reading of your rifle's headspace (base to datum line on shoulder). If you don't have a drilled/tapped fired case, the Hornady tool with a factory reference case really only gives you a measurement of the distance from the shoulder (datum) to lands, but it DOESN'T give you the true breech-to-lands distance which is the value you're really working with when you chamber a live round. To get around this, you can buy a factory reference case and measure the base-to-datum value, then measure the base-to-datum value of a fired case. Whatever the difference is (the fired case value will be bigger), add that to the value you get from tool. For example, for my 6GT, my reference case is .009 shorter than a fired case, meaning the true headspace of the rifle is .009 longer than the reference case's base-to-datum measurement. So, take the measurement when using the tool, add .009 and that gives you your true breech-to-lands dimension.
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too. Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings. You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method. Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent: Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results. Seems to work fine.
What wasnt mentioned was no matter what method used you need to do readings of 5-10 bullets for each bullet type then take the average. Some bullets are very consistant but some can varry quite a bit
I know this is not as technical as you have it but we would set the bullet in the casing according to the book specs and take a magic marker and blacken out the bullet. We would slowly slide the casing into the chamber. You will get two scratch marks on the bullet as you close. The long scratch on the bullet will be made as it slides into the chamber. The short scratch will be as the bullet comes up to the land and finishes. We would pull the cartridge back out and look for the scratch marks, It would tell us how far up on the land it would go depending what kind of bullet and the shape it was.
Use a combination of the Loctite and Hornady gauge. Drill out the primer pocket, use Loctite as stated, but push the bullet into the rifling using a small rod through the primer pocket. I use the RCBS Precision Mic, but the results are never consistent.
Sorry late to using You tube I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value. I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case. I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
I Use HORNADY gauge to fined the lands and then I subtract 20 thousand off. that's good for hunting. I like that because the bullet takes off before it hits the lands, gives it more of a quick speed up.
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
I use the last method and run my casing through the sizer to open the neck a bit I'm doing it in my AR though so I hold my charging handle and let the bcg slowly ride home after it engages the casing I bump the forward assist until the BCG closes completely, them pop out the rear pin and I use a thin dowel rod to gently push the casing out as I draw my BCG back and the bullet doesn't often get stuck because I lube the chamber with a bit of oil before I push the bullet in. I do the same with my 30-30 lever but I partially seat the bullets and get the measurement when I close the chamber then bump it back a thousandth or two. I find that I get the best groups out of my budget AR barrel and I developed the perfect deer cartridge with lever-evo and the 150gn cast flat points I use for target ammo and 160gn FTX bullets. I use my cast Zinc bullets in my AR and use the Elvis Ammo mold from arsenal molds the 77gn lead mold drops Zinc bullets that average 40-45 gn Bullets but I advise caution not to compact your loads with them because they weigh only 45gn but are 77gn length so care must be taken when loading them. But using that method hasn't failed me yet. The bullet usually sticks in the top of the casing and I subtract a thousandth or two. No problems with it as of yet.
You should do a headspace measurement on a fired or resized case and compare it to the modified unfired case. Add the difference for a precise measurement.
I'm repeating sort of E. Cortina measurements every second time when start a new set of cases. In my world it is 20 (soots per one case) x 40 (cases) x 2 = 1600 shoots. I made this 3 times already. Difference is small, but valuable:)
Eric explains it here. This is part one, and then there's a part two. I'd call it “chasing”, but he draws a line as to how far he goes down that path. ruclips.net/video/oRXlCG9YZbQ/видео.html
I use a sharpie and colour the bullet ogive on a dummy fired round in that chamber seated long in a case with very slight neck tension.The sharpie will show the engraving of the rifling.Very carefully remove the dummy round then measure.I usually do this three times to check for varibles.This has worked for the last 40 years for me.Then I seat the bullets .010 deeper to start my load ladder.When I have determined my best load I will then seat in incriments of .005 deeper for another load ladder until I have found my best accuracy....Good video
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
I just close the bolt on it like the last way you showed. I have been doing it that way for over 40 years and never a problem. I also use breech seating and a separate cartridge on my single shots. By the way, what you now a days call the throat, we call the leade.
I've been using #3 with sharpie for years. I generally do a few samples just to eliminate any error. If I get the same number a few times in a row, i trust it.
I use the Hornady OAL system but go about it differently which always gives me results with in +\- .001/.002. I put the intended bullet in so it is seated extra long and then insert the rod until you can lightly feel contact with the lands. THEN I loosen the locking screw and push the brass up into place, once snug, retighten the screw remove and measure. Very repeatable with this method. I do use a rod down the barrel to always push the bullet out.
I have been using the sharpie coloring method for near 31 years. Why do I use this method? Because it works and I do not like spending money on unnecessary gadgets. The sharpie, now that's a real tool!😎
How important is the fired, modified case? Isn't the point where the ogive connects with the lands the same length from the case head, regardless of the neck / shoulders if the trim length is correct?
I assume the rationale for finding the lands is to avoid slamming the round against the rifling tearing / deforming the bullet and to avoid any excess harmonics. It would seem sufficient that the bullet be seated against all lands as equally as possible. This would indicate to me that a method using new precision cartridges with bullets pressed to different depths would be most appropriate (Geometric Tolerancing being considered). Measurements being taken of the distance the bolt remains open when an over length cartridge meets the lands could be deducted from the cartridge length and bullet depth adjusted. The stack of machine tolerance variables can only be reduced so much before other factors have greater effect.
Always enjoy your topics. An aside, noticed your bench vise, so am asking…. What size of vice do you recommend for a startup DIYer and what features do you suggest? Thanks in advance.
For the life of me I don’t see how method 1 OAL works. You carefully seat the bullet then you pull it out and “ accurately “ push it in to exactly where it was. Maybe I’m too obsessive and I realize that’s how Hornady says to do it.
well, I've used the sharpie method. but i didn't like that, because I was never quite certain exactly how far the bullet was being forced into the lands. and with the 300 Win Mag. I didn't think that a huge pressure spike was a good idea. I tried using (candle) smoke, which i thought was a lot better. but the readings were not always repeatable (close, but not exact). I have never heard of the loc-tite method, but I LIKE (at least the idea of it) that I , so I will be giving that a try. I am just running a stock Remington 700 BDL (with the barrel free floated), but i have managed to get into the sub moa much of the time. and sometimes less (when components are available) one 0.438" 5 shot group. I really like the experimenting that hand loading allows. i do not shoot competitively like you guys do. I just shoot for fun. I do have to agree with Jeff Cooper, only accurate rifles are interesting. so picking up tips from guys and gals who shoot competitively is greatly appreciated!
Can't you just cut a vertical slit in the neck of a sized case so a seated projectile can move freely in it. Then have the projectile sitting right out in the case. Chamber the case and the rifling will push the projectile in the case to the right depth...
I use the Hornady gauge and have had consistent readings. I was using Erik's method but somehow I got a bullet stuck in the barrel while testing my reloads to make sure they'd chamber freely after a loading session. Was likely an error on my end on a reading I guess but I like the oal gauge myself
I use Hornadys OAL system, but I find it very difficult to get the same measurement repeatedly. Also, you said you would include information on where to get the drill/tap to make a our own fire-formed case. I don't see it. Thanks for a very informative video.
The bullet pushed in easily chambering by hand on the chamber cutaway. Was that with the cased full length resized and seated normally or did you use an expander mandrel so the bullet would slide into the case easier when chambering on the first part theory example showing the cutaway barrel chamber?
Very interesting. Your next challenge, should you choose to take it, is to show the proper way to make a gas port insertion into the rifling of the bore and not end up with bullet jacket shredding intersections and burrs.
One concern regarding the jam method is in regard to neck tension. I used a new case but I used a .306 mandrel to get the bolt to even close. Do you have any data on how much the neck tension will change a jam measurement? It seems logical that a tighter neck will cause the bullet to go further into the lands. I personally have been using the loctite method. Seems like the most reliable.
I would never use loctite in my rifle bore. I fault you on this segment for not insisting on using a specific loctite. I have multiple different bottles of loctite in my shop. So which loctite. 242, 241, 222, or 271.
I would like to know which is most consistent from measurement to measurement. Ergo, do 5 measurements with OAL back to back, then loctite, etc, and see if there are any differences or other factors being introduced like human error. Also, how much changes just by changing the bullet itself. We are talking 1/1000s of inch here overall on things, and there is no way those bullets are all consistently the same diameter. Would also like to see shooting data (muzzle vel, groupings, etc) with multiple shots from each method. Need more data!
I can't wait to try the loctite method and find out what it's like to remove a glued in case from my chamber. Something about seeing the locktite on the outside makes me a bit hesitant to try it. Maybe it isn't such a big deal, though. Have seen that brake cleaner can remove it...anyone know, or had it happen?
It would be interesting to have the same person try each method on the same gun 5 times to find out which produces the most repeatable results. I usually use my gauge, but noticed that if i take a few back-to-back measurements, the accuracy is only to about +- .005". I wonder how the other methods compare?
That’s plenty accurate enough. You don’t really care where the lands are it’s just a datum point, you care where the bullet is in the case when it shoots best
@@jason-bn4qw bullet tips vary to much to tune accurately using coal. What matters most is where you are going to stick a bullet so you can stay away from that. Do you really care where the lands are or do you just use it as a datum point to base BTO measurements off to start a depth test.
OAL gauge with the bullet comparator and the Headspace gauge as well... No the have worked fine for me... Are they match perfect...? Probably not but pretty close...
I use the Hornady OAL with their cases. I seem to get better consistency when I use more force to jam it in. I originally used the magic marker method. Now I think I’ll compare the two methods in a couple of my rifles.
As always Gavin, awesome and informative videos. When casting bullets I almost always make a chamber cast using low temp casting alloy. Tap it out and you have a generally perfect model of your rifles chamber and lands. I wonder if someone could write a 3d modeling program to print a chamber guage for your rifle?? Also, what are your thoughts on barrel manufacturers for higher end barrels making a sequentially cut chamber guage using the exact reamer? Tromix for example. Somewhat like you did with the OEM Howa barrel. I am new to precision rifle handloading, mostly reloading for semi auto mag length rounds and cast lead for semi auto pistol and revolver background.
hell I just take a resized case, put in the bullet I want and send to the lands. I remove the round then shorten it by .020 then crimp bullet tight. I do this for each different bullet. I keep these rounds and mark them. when I reload I have a round to set it up with.
love this stuff. you guys gt ,ec, tf are great. curious if the ec, aw, tf methods affect bolt closing pressure or more importantly neck tension, if when chambered the case rotates on the bullet if it bites into the lands? guessing it increases closing pressure, & reduces neck tension? tnx
I enjoyed watching both of you demonstrating the different methods. I am not a match shooter, I have developed loads for long range hunting for years. Some rifles just don’t make the grade. Travis was trying to precisely show the method and you trying to interject some theory and ideas. I use the bolt method and subtract 0.015. The bolt imparts the most consistent force to the cartridge. It always worked, and frankly I never considered another way. I will pass some profound ideology along that was given me many decades ago. Who’s F______ this monkey anyway! I look forward to viewing more of your videos.
My comment is a thumbs up and down at the same time.......😁👍👎.......... I have a OAL gauge and brass to go with it. No instructions on how to use it till now.. Thank ya vera much ......👍👍.......... As a reloader I will now know this info BUT what use is it to me if I don't know how far off the lands I need to be. When we have several platforms using the same caliber do we measure and load for a specific firearm?? 🤨 We have a max OAL listed in loading data which means nothing to amateur guyz like us unless we backoff greatly from those stats -or- know how far off the lands we should be (as a general rule) for: 1. A particular firearm 2. A particular caliber 3. All caliber's in general For these and all questions like these.... Inquiring minds wanna know ........😚🤔......... enjoy
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well. Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting. I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate. Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line. Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
Hi guys liked your Video! I use gel superglue in a fired case with no primer then I push the bolt down quick easy and very effective that then goes into my caliber specific box for that type of bullet if I choose to use same gun different bullet I repeat the step. Easy painless and super effective put gel inside of neck in case then your bullet load the round in push the bolt down wait 5-7 min boom 🤯 done 👍🏻
I’m Trying to put a load together for my 300 Win Mag. 190 grain accubond long range with RL 17 I tried 67,68,69 grains can’t get them to group up at 100 yards.I’m at 3.442 on the lands went to 3.412 and started there. Just curious any ideas?
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a RUclips video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin. This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands. However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on RUclips as well under the title Stop chasing the lands. I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
I don't reload just buy off the shelf. Probably a stupid question , is it possible to adjust bullet depth on off the shelf ammo?? Probably can't after crimp, I don't know . Just wondering. Thanks
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this.
Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Nice! I was surprised at how consistent this method was.
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Erik's method is what I've been using for the past 10yrs.
For this method, do you use form sized brass or re-sized brass ?
And the feline is much maligned. Thank YOU for sharing! I used my lighter to smoke the bullet!
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE.
you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber.
dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
@@indydurtdigger2867 yeah it's a mess to remove, as its like lacquer when dried. Can't be easily solved by chems either.
Thex
@@jmkhenka nail varnish remover eats loctite threadlocker
@@pj4433 Some of them yes. Others are chem resistant if not outright insoluble.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
A fired case is a true reading of your rifle's headspace (base to datum line on shoulder). If you don't have a drilled/tapped fired case, the Hornady tool with a factory reference case really only gives you a measurement of the distance from the shoulder (datum) to lands, but it DOESN'T give you the true breech-to-lands distance which is the value you're really working with when you chamber a live round. To get around this, you can buy a factory reference case and measure the base-to-datum value, then measure the base-to-datum value of a fired case. Whatever the difference is (the fired case value will be bigger), add that to the value you get from tool. For example, for my 6GT, my reference case is .009 shorter than a fired case, meaning the true headspace of the rifle is .009 longer than the reference case's base-to-datum measurement. So, take the measurement when using the tool, add .009 and that gives you your true breech-to-lands dimension.
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too.
Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings.
You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method.
Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent:
Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I like Eric cortinas method because it gives you a go no go feel for every other method it seemed to much of a difference in measurements
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
Exactly what I done, except I just used some regular glue instead of loctite, but then all the info is on the case
Why not just right it down in your reload book?
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@GetMeThere1 well thats why they make reload journals with places to write these things down. Lol 😂
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results.
Seems to work fine.
What wasnt mentioned was no matter what method used you need to do readings of 5-10 bullets for each bullet type then take the average. Some bullets are very consistant but some can varry quite a bit
I know this is not as technical as you have it but we would set the bullet in the casing according to the book specs and take a magic marker and blacken out the bullet. We would slowly slide the casing into the chamber. You will get two scratch marks on the bullet as you close. The long scratch on the bullet will be made as it slides into the chamber. The short scratch will be as the bullet comes up to the land and finishes. We would pull the cartridge back out and look for the scratch marks, It would tell us how far up on the land it would go depending what kind of bullet and the shape it was.
Use a combination of the Loctite and Hornady gauge. Drill out the primer pocket, use Loctite as stated, but push the bullet into the rifling using a small rod through the primer pocket. I use the RCBS Precision Mic, but the results are never consistent.
Sorry late to using You tube
I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value.
I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case.
I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
I Use HORNADY gauge to fined the lands and then I subtract 20 thousand off. that's good for hunting. I like that because the bullet takes off before it hits the lands, gives it more of a quick speed up.
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
I love Dave Manson's work. He did some work with Nathan Foster. They built some reamers- Foster Mason reamers-
I use the last method and run my casing through the sizer to open the neck a bit I'm doing it in my AR though so I hold my charging handle and let the bcg slowly ride home after it engages the casing I bump the forward assist until the BCG closes completely, them pop out the rear pin and I use a thin dowel rod to gently push the casing out as I draw my BCG back and the bullet doesn't often get stuck because I lube the chamber with a bit of oil before I push the bullet in. I do the same with my 30-30 lever but I partially seat the bullets and get the measurement when I close the chamber then bump it back a thousandth or two. I find that I get the best groups out of my budget AR barrel and I developed the perfect deer cartridge with lever-evo and the 150gn cast flat points I use for target ammo and 160gn FTX bullets. I use my cast Zinc bullets in my AR and use the Elvis Ammo mold from arsenal molds the 77gn lead mold drops Zinc bullets that average 40-45 gn Bullets but I advise caution not to compact your loads with them because they weigh only 45gn but are 77gn length so care must be taken when loading them. But using that method hasn't failed me yet. The bullet usually sticks in the top of the casing and I subtract a thousandth or two. No problems with it as of yet.
You should do a headspace measurement on a fired or resized case and compare it to the modified unfired case. Add the difference for a precise measurement.
I use Frankfort Arsenal for oal. Of course with this method you will need to reduce your OAL be 2 thousandths for head space.
Since erosion is a constant factor, won’t you be constantly chasing the lands?
I'm repeating sort of E. Cortina measurements every second time when start a new set of cases. In my world it is 20 (soots per one case) x 40 (cases) x 2 = 1600 shoots. I made this 3 times already. Difference is small, but valuable:)
Eric explains it here. This is part one, and then there's a part two. I'd call it “chasing”, but he draws a line as to how far he goes down that path. ruclips.net/video/oRXlCG9YZbQ/видео.html
I use a sharpie and colour the bullet ogive on a dummy fired round in that chamber seated long in a case with very slight neck tension.The sharpie will show the engraving of the rifling.Very carefully remove the dummy round then measure.I usually do this three times to check for varibles.This has worked for the last 40 years for me.Then I seat the bullets .010 deeper to start my load ladder.When I have determined my best load I will then seat in incriments of .005 deeper for another load ladder until I have found my best accuracy....Good video
I use a completely resized shoulder bumped case and seat into the lands by closing the bolt.
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
you forgot to mention the specific tap for making your own hornady comparator case. it is a 5/16″ x 36 tpi tap.
Actually, I did mention it, and also mentioned that there's a link in the article (and the "L" drill bit too) :)
@@Ultimatereloader ah, on your website. forgot about that.
@@Ultimatereloader what do you do if the bullet doesn't seat loosely in a fired case?? is there a safe way to push the neck out a bit??
I use a dummy round and a candle to blacken the bullet, I keep chambering and seating until the lands no longer mark the candle soot on the bullet
I just close the bolt on it like the last way you showed. I have been doing it that way for over 40 years and never a problem. I also use breech seating and a separate cartridge on my single shots. By the way, what you now a days call the throat, we call the leade.
I was just trying to figure out how to do this. Thank you Gavintoobbe!!!
I've been using #3 with sharpie for years. I generally do a few samples just to eliminate any error. If I get the same number a few times in a row, i trust it.
I use the Hornady OAL system but go about it differently which always gives me results with in +\- .001/.002. I put the intended bullet in so it is seated extra long and then insert the rod until you can lightly feel contact with the lands. THEN I loosen the locking screw and push the brass up into place, once snug, retighten the screw remove and measure. Very repeatable with this method. I do use a rod down the barrel to always push the bullet out.
With any method, do it a few of times to check for consistency. not many people can consistently measure to half a thou.
I have been using the sharpie coloring method for near 31 years. Why do I use this method? Because it works and I do not like spending money on unnecessary gadgets. The sharpie, now that's a real tool!😎
Rushing to my basement to try the bolt seating method.
How important is the fired, modified case? Isn't the point where the ogive connects with the lands the same length from the case head, regardless of the neck / shoulders if the trim length is correct?
I assume the rationale for finding the lands is to avoid slamming the round against the rifling tearing / deforming the bullet and to avoid any excess harmonics.
It would seem sufficient that the bullet be seated against all lands as equally as possible. This would indicate to me that a method using new precision cartridges with bullets pressed to different depths would be most appropriate (Geometric Tolerancing being considered). Measurements being taken of the distance the bolt remains open when an over length cartridge meets the lands could be deducted from the cartridge length and bullet depth adjusted.
The stack of machine tolerance variables can only be reduced so much before other factors have greater effect.
Always enjoy your topics. An aside, noticed your bench vise, so am asking….
What size of vice do you recommend for a startup DIYer and what features do you suggest? Thanks in advance.
For the life of me I don’t see how method 1 OAL works. You carefully seat the bullet then you pull it out and “ accurately “ push it in to exactly where it was. Maybe I’m too obsessive and I realize that’s how Hornady says to do it.
well, I've used the sharpie method. but i didn't like that, because I was never quite certain exactly how far the bullet was being forced into the lands. and with the 300 Win Mag. I didn't think that a huge pressure spike was a good idea. I tried using (candle) smoke, which i thought was a lot better. but the readings were not always repeatable (close, but not exact). I have never heard of the loc-tite method, but I LIKE (at least the idea of it) that I , so I will be giving that a try. I am just running a stock Remington 700 BDL (with the barrel free floated), but i have managed to get into the sub moa much of the time. and sometimes less (when components are available) one 0.438" 5 shot group. I really like the experimenting that hand loading allows. i do not shoot competitively like you guys do. I just shoot for fun. I do have to agree with Jeff Cooper, only accurate rifles are interesting. so picking up tips from guys and gals who shoot competitively is greatly appreciated!
Can't you just cut a vertical slit in the neck of a sized case so a seated projectile can move freely in it. Then have the projectile sitting right out in the case. Chamber the case and the rifling will push the projectile in the case to the right depth...
I use the Hornady gauge and have had consistent readings. I was using Erik's method but somehow I got a bullet stuck in the barrel while testing my reloads to make sure they'd chamber freely after a loading session. Was likely an error on my end on a reading I guess but I like the oal gauge myself
The lock tight trick is neat!
I use Hornadys OAL system, but I find it very difficult to get the same measurement repeatedly. Also, you said you would include information on where to get the drill/tap to make a our own fire-formed case. I don't see it. Thanks for a very informative video.
The bullet pushed in easily chambering by hand on the chamber cutaway. Was that with the cased full length resized and seated normally or did you use an expander mandrel so the bullet would slide into the case easier when chambering on the first part theory example showing the cutaway barrel chamber?
Very interesting. Your next challenge, should you choose to take it, is to show the proper way to make a gas port insertion into the rifling of the bore and not end up with bullet jacket shredding intersections and burrs.
I use a rod , with drill stop collars .. going to try the loctite method to compare
One concern regarding the jam method is in regard to neck tension. I used a new case but I used a .306 mandrel to get the bolt to even close. Do you have any data on how much the neck tension will change a jam measurement? It seems logical that a tighter neck will cause the bullet to go further into the lands. I personally have been using the loctite method. Seems like the most reliable.
I would never use loctite in my rifle bore. I fault you on this segment for not insisting on using a specific loctite. I have multiple different bottles of loctite in my shop. So which loctite. 242, 241, 222, or 271.
I would like to know which is most consistent from measurement to measurement. Ergo, do 5 measurements with OAL back to back, then loctite, etc, and see if there are any differences or other factors being introduced like human error. Also, how much changes just by changing the bullet itself. We are talking 1/1000s of inch here overall on things, and there is no way those bullets are all consistently the same diameter. Would also like to see shooting data (muzzle vel, groupings, etc) with multiple shots from each method. Need more data!
I use # 3 -.020"
I can't wait to try the loctite method and find out what it's like to remove a glued in case from my chamber. Something about seeing the locktite on the outside makes me a bit hesitant to try it. Maybe it isn't such a big deal, though. Have seen that brake cleaner can remove it...anyone know, or had it happen?
Just remove the primer and you only need such a small amount. Much less than what you saw them use. Push it back out with a pipe cleaner.
On the third method what was the neck tension of the resize brass so that it didn’t stick to chamber when ejected?
Gavin, so once OAL is found for your rifle, how many thousandths do you bump back your seating depth for starting point? .010?
I am reloading .223 for my AR to shoot highpower competitions. How in depth do you think is too much for an auto gun?
How does finding the lands relate to reloading? New to reloading here.
I use the OAL method with fire formed cases. Great Info as always, much appreciated.
It would be interesting to have the same person try each method on the same gun 5 times to find out which produces the most repeatable results. I usually use my gauge, but noticed that if i take a few back-to-back measurements, the accuracy is only to about +- .005". I wonder how the other methods compare?
That’s plenty accurate enough. You don’t really care where the lands are it’s just a datum point, you care where the bullet is in the case when it shoots best
@@taylorbokshowan5713 if we didn't care, we'd all just tune COAL and wouldn't be watching videos like this ;)
@@jason-bn4qw bullet tips vary to much to tune accurately using coal. What matters most is where you are going to stick a bullet so you can stay away from that. Do you really care where the lands are or do you just use it as a datum point to base BTO measurements off to start a depth test.
@@taylorbokshowan5713 a wise man once said... "dont chase the lands"
OAL gauge with the bullet comparator and the Headspace gauge as well... No the have worked fine for me... Are they match perfect...? Probably not but pretty close...
I use the Hornady OAL with their cases. I seem to get better consistency when I use more force to jam it in. I originally used the magic marker method. Now I think I’ll compare the two methods in a couple of my rifles.
As always Gavin, awesome and informative videos. When casting bullets I almost always make a chamber cast using low temp casting alloy. Tap it out and you have a generally perfect model of your rifles chamber and lands. I wonder if someone could write a 3d modeling program to print a chamber guage for your rifle??
Also, what are your thoughts on barrel manufacturers for higher end barrels making a sequentially cut chamber guage using the exact reamer? Tromix for example. Somewhat like you did with the OEM Howa barrel.
I am new to precision rifle handloading, mostly reloading for semi auto mag length rounds and cast lead for semi auto pistol and revolver background.
Great video, as always! Thank you!
hell I just take a resized case, put in the bullet I want and send to the lands. I remove the round then shorten it by .020 then crimp bullet tight. I do this for each different bullet. I keep these rounds and mark them. when I reload I have a round to set it up with.
This is the best video explaining this thanks keep up the great videos
What is the tool/ attachment you are using to get those measurements? (I currently don't reload but like learning)
why are you still chasing the lands ?
I use the OAL method!
So can this be determined in semiautomatic rifles?
Where do you get drill bit and tap from? I do not see the address?
The last one because it is easy
love this stuff. you guys gt ,ec, tf are great. curious if the ec, aw, tf methods affect bolt closing pressure or more importantly neck tension, if when chambered the case rotates on the bullet if it bites into the lands? guessing it increases closing pressure, & reduces neck tension?
tnx
I enjoyed watching both of you demonstrating the different methods. I am not a match shooter, I have developed loads for long range hunting for years. Some rifles just don’t make the grade. Travis was trying to precisely show the method and you trying to interject some theory and ideas. I use the bolt method and subtract 0.015. The bolt imparts the most consistent force to the cartridge. It always worked, and frankly I never considered another way. I will pass some profound ideology along that was given me many decades ago. Who’s F______ this monkey anyway! I look forward to viewing more of your videos.
My comment is a thumbs up and down at the same time.......😁👍👎.......... I have a OAL gauge and brass to go with it. No instructions on how to use it till now.. Thank ya vera much ......👍👍..........
As a reloader I will now know this info BUT what use is it to me if I don't know how far off the lands I need to be. When we have several platforms using the same caliber do we measure and load for a specific firearm?? 🤨
We have a max OAL listed in loading data which means nothing to amateur guyz like us unless we backoff greatly from those stats -or- know how far off the lands we should be (as a general rule) for:
1. A particular firearm
2. A particular caliber
3. All caliber's in general
For these and all questions like these.... Inquiring minds wanna know ........😚🤔......... enjoy
Who cares where the lands are, it doesn't matter, find jam instead.
Blah blah blah
Jam Method
Anybody ever heard of something called chasing the lands. it's funny
Why don’t barrel makers just tell us the land’s mark instead of wasting all this time and effort
super helpful!!
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
I like your method!
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Took a picture of your method. I would think it’s the most accurate method without special tools. Delton rods are easy to order.
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
Yes. Erik Cortina talks about the difference between finding the lands and what he calls the “jam method”.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
@@semperfi6288 don’t know why but I like that idea better than case lube
So cool to see a actual cutaway while you guys explain what’s going on. That definitely makes it clear what every little step on the print is for!
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well.
Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go
Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting.
I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate.
Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
same. No confidence in the OAL. Hopefully, this demo will make me more comfortable with the OAL.
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line.
Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
@@jeremydunn5903 Also, if you have a seating die insert, make sure it's the correct one.
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
Yes, it was awesome
When you’re using the bolt to “jam” it into the lands, coat the bullet with case lube or wax, and the bullet shouldn’t get stuck.
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
Loctite on a hard smooth surface in a non anaerobic isn’t going to adhere amazingly well. No issues getting it out with normal cleaning.
For the last 30 years I’ve used an empty case and superglue instead of Loctite
Hi guys liked your Video! I use gel superglue in a fired case with no primer then I push the bolt down quick easy and very effective that then goes into my caliber specific box for that type of bullet if I choose to use same gun different bullet I repeat the step. Easy painless and super effective put gel inside of neck in case then your bullet load the round in push the bolt down wait 5-7 min boom 🤯 done 👍🏻
I’m Trying to put a load together for my 300 Win Mag. 190 grain accubond long range with RL 17 I tried 67,68,69 grains can’t get them to group up at 100 yards.I’m at 3.442 on the lands went to 3.412 and started there. Just curious any ideas?
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
....and remember that we just do this once to get the measurements to use to adjust seating depth.🤙
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a RUclips video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin.
This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands.
However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on RUclips as well under the title Stop chasing the lands.
I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
Hey guys, good video, however, Eric uses the bolt drop you mentioned to set 2 thou shoulder bump in a full length sizing die NOT to find jam
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
How could the bolt bump the lands back at all?
And yes, sans is a word....lol.... look it up but you may already know, good luck in your shooting!
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
I don't reload just buy off the shelf. Probably a stupid question , is it possible to adjust bullet depth on off the shelf ammo?? Probably can't after crimp, I don't know . Just wondering. Thanks
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same