Bought one back in the 1990’s when it first came out for my Colt National Match AR-15 in .223 and it worked great. Used military and commercial brass with no issues. Was using Accurate 2200 powder and 62 grain bullets.
Very informative. Some of the comments remind me of when some “long time reloaders” swore that 3-5 reloading were all you could get “safely” from brass. Well that myth has died but still some persist. Then the myth about “never a need to anneal” vs those that said if you don’t anneal you will only get 2-3 reloads……that myth died. Yet still some persist. Gavin does real world testing. He can’t test every variable, but he chases the main ones and provides data vs opinion. What I like is that even Gavin sometimes has his own opinions challenged by his own data! Great channel G-man. Keep up the great info! What I would like to know is some more info on using the burn rate chart to come up with a load given bullet weight changes within caliber. Using 223 and 6.5 Creedmoor would be interesting since those are very popular.
Thanks Gavin for another video. Definitely my favorite channel. Love that you are driven by data and engineering. I’m and engineer as well so it’s nice to see another data driven gun nerd and it’s nice to see you using every man’s reloading equipment even though you’ve got area 419 gear everywhere! Can’t lie, a favorite on mine too but some of it’s just more than I’d care to spend. Keep it up!!
@@1jordanledwards1 obviously you haven't seen too many of his videos. Majority of which use nothing but Ulta high dollar equipment that only the very wealthy can afford. And normally he has three or more of everything. Am I jealous? Bet your ass I am. The reason I am bitchiñg is he's turned into a shill! And that's just sad.
I’ve used the X-dies for over 20 years. Never have an issue. I regular size, trim to say 1.747” for .223, set the X-die to a case that measures exactly 1.750”. Fire, resize with X-die and just repeat and repeat. The cases will eventually fail with split case mouth from work hardening. Have not had case head separation or signs of it. It works as advertised. This is for plinking, shooting steel, and casual target accuracy shooting. If you are doing real tight precision loading I can’t say if it is appropriate or not. But my brass seems to last forever and over time I get 1-2% loss from split mouths which is much less than I lose to range setups making brass retrieval difficult.
I love the Ultimate Reloader videos - I've learned so much. This is the first time, though, I've felt that it was more of a sales pitch with awkward rationalizations than a rigorous, unbiased review. If you look at the case shoulders at 5:43, as someone else mentioned, there is something seriously wonky with the case on the right (20 round case). It looks exactly what you would expect it to look like if a too-long neck was restricted in the die and crushed down the shoulder. The shoulder angle is different than the 8 shot round and looks deformed and inconsistent. I cannot imagine those two rounds would headspace the same.
I use the x-die for 223 for high power rifle match loads. It works as advertised and has eliminated the need for repeated trimming. I trim to 1.740 and set the die to limit to 1.750. I get consistent accuracy for match loads. I found out about it from Konrad who has a RUclips channel here. I learned from him not to waste time doing reloading things that don’t improve target scores.
Very interesting concept. I have to believe brass continues to flow upward but the pilot stops it from lengthening. Did the neck thickness increase after each shot?
No that isn’t how it flows. Without the X-die brass is allowed to push up as the case is squeezed. As the neck stretches it pulls brass up from the length down to the case head. But if the neck is stopped from moving up the case head is not pushing it up. It is more like the case mouth pulls it. So stop the case neck and there is no flow.
I use a Redding body die (bumping shoulder about 2 though) and Lee collet die ( in that order ) for my 22-250 cases, very minimal stretching. Primer pockets loosened up by the 13th reload.
Curious to see the results annealing the brass after every firing. Data points to the brass reaching maximum work hardness at about round 15 and after that springback becomes more noticeable. Wonder how much of this has to do with not annealing between firings, and how much of it is a result of the product. Thanks for the video!
@@greasydot We know the brass has to go somewhere.. If it's prevented from growing the neck then where is it going? My guess is the shoulder/neck junction of the brass. Ever see what happens to brass when you expand or seat with excess resistance? The whole shoulder collapses or bells out in that exact area. Combined with not annealing I can see this creating an issue in this area leading to eventual separation. Also of interest would be a case capacity test with the virgin brass vs the 20x fired. Its very possible that a "Donut" is building in that junction area and affecting internal case capacity. Good luck trimming THAT one out. I think this type of a sizer would work great for straight wall brass like 45-70 or pistol cartridges but personally I will stick to my conventional Forster sizers for anything with a shoulder.
An interesting thing about the comment section is that people who haven’t used it are the most vocal in their dislike, while those who have used it are quite pleased. 🤔
@@richardlindquist5936 I can't disagree with that. No I haven't used this die so I really hope you are correct. But my dime won't be spent on this questionable technology. If you have it and it works for you, that's great. Carry on.
Thanks for this topic! I use this die on 30.06 for my M1 Garand. I usually still have to check and trim the brass. My M1 beats up the brass quite a bit. To be safe, I usually replace the brass after 5 firings. I'll try Lapua brass and see.
I bought the x die 12 years ago and just now getting back to reloading. The instructions that came with mine differ slightly for the initial setup (titled Preparing Your Cases) for the first sizing. At the 3 minute mark when you tighten the mandrel lock ring, you tightened the mandrel until hard resistance is felt. My instructions say to back the mandrel out 1 to 2 turns after hard resistance and then tighten the lock ring. This is prior to trimming .020 from case max length. After trimming, the instructions say to adjust the mandrel exactly as you did prior to trimming. Perhaps the instructions changed since 12 years ago, or it didn't matter for your .223 cases. I wonder if that holds for other case sizes. The instructions are confusing as #%*$ which is why I'm here. Thank you for thoroughly testing the x die! I've seen mixed reviews but your test gives me confidence using it.
From my understanding you initially adjusted the die before you trimmed it. I would think if you want it resized to the trimmed length you would set the die after trimming.
I requested you to do a video on the RCBS X-Base die back on 14 Jan. Glad you got around to it. Gavin, wondering if you could do a video on the RCBS X-Base sizing die. Set up and what the benefit is. Thank you.
Are you annealing brass at any point in these 20 firings? Is the brass flowing toward the shoulder / neck and creating a thicker case mouth? I would love it to not have to trim brass but I gotta think work hardening / neck tension / creating a bulge / chambering would become a problem. I guess I’m just going to get a RCBS X die myself and put it to the test but I’ve gotta think trimming brass is the way to go because that’s the way it’s been done for 100 years!
I've wondered about these dies for years but never investigated them. Watching this has opened more questions than I have time to document. It seems the mandrel does the work. I need one to fit my Dillon FL Carbide Sizer Die but equipped with a carbide expander ball. It would seem annealing should be part of the process for consistent bullet release. About every 5th cycle maybe especially for gas guns.
Thank for this, I have never really looked into what the X dies were, I saw them, didn't follow them but wow, this really fits into my use case. I think a lingering question is, is there benefit to annealing the brass? My thinking is yes, since the case will still go through work-hardening when fired and resized. So I think I will continue to anneal unless something compelling comes up here, stating its bad to do so. :D
I would only use the small base die for the first re-sizing. Cases should be fire formed to your chamber after that. Effectively under-sizing every time is overworking your brass. I have done this with .308 - small base die for first sizing and then the regular X-Die for subsequent sizing. However, I wouldn’t be comfortable shooting the same case more than 5 or 6 times in any semiauto without annealing.
After watching the great video that was the first question that came to mind . How often do you anneal ? I anneal all bottle neck cases before trimming .If you were going to do controled batchs of brass do you not anneal after that first trimming ?
@ I don’t anneal brass (yet). However, it makes complete sense to anneal after the sizing that stretches cases enough to require trimming. Your comment also makes me think that if the X-Die moves brass less, it might reduce the need to anneal going forward.
@@richardlindquist5936 if by “auto” you mean a machine gun, then a small base die could be a good idea. However, your brass life will be short - the exact opposite of the point of this video. If you mean semi-auto, then routinely using a small base die over works the brass unless there is something wrong with your rifle. The small base dies were created so you could take milsurp brass that has been fired in a machine gun with an over-sized chamber. Or one that functions in a way that case are ejected *before* they can spring back a bit inside the chamber. IOW you try a normal sizing die first. If that doesn’t reduce the case diameter sufficiently to fit in your case gauge, then re-size with the small base sizing die.
This seems cool! Has RCBS come out with something to handle the case swell around the belt on belted magnums? I feel like it’s something they could incorporate into a resizing die. There’s a company that created a collet to address it.
Seems as though the setup instructions may be wrong or incomplete. Logically, it would seem that you would want to size with the mandrel backed out, then trim, then put the sized and trimmed case back in and then set the mandrel for the case mouth shoulder to make contact. By setting the mandrel prior to trimming, it should be expected that its going to be long with any subsequent firing and sizing because you set the mandrel (case mouth shoulder) to an initial longer pre-trimmed length, so the case has room to grow from trimmed length till it contacts that shoulder. Example, lets say that after sizing and and setting the mandrel as you did and then trimmed say 10thou to get the 1.740 length, because you set that the mandrel prior to trimming, you effectively set it to 1.750, so next sizing would allow it to grow to 1.750 before the case mouth shoulder could do anything to try to stop it from growing.
I only use small base dies for semi autos. I only trim and neck size for bolt guns. Im slightly skeptical. I clean military brass, ream the primer pockets, prime, dump in Blc2 or varget and get 10 shot dime sized groups with that Hornaday 75 grainer in my CZ . I do the same with 308. I used to watch old timers scoop a case full of IMR4831 in the 06 and cram a 180 gr bullet in. I've done very well not overcomplicting things. Everyone enjoy your hobby the way you like. Just be safe.
At 5:43 you can tell that there is deformation at the shoulder of the case between the 8th firing and the 20th firing, and that is coming from a bolt gun. I own this die as well. I would use .223 cases out of my Ar15s, and eventually that part of the case would crush. If you could be so kind, I would like you (Gavin) to give us data using the same process coming out of an AR15 and show us the results. I think a lot of us would use this die for our gas guns, and not our bolt guns.
@@jonathanschubert9052 Lets not forget the rifle that Gavin is shooting it out of. It is a custom precision made rifle with a tight chamber that can shoot lights out with the correct load. I want to see how a case will hold up on a duty rifle like a Colt or BCM.
Being able to load 1 fire 1 is a dream. I have to drive 20 minutes to an indoor range and give them $30. I think i can come and go as much as I want each day but still. I am jealous.
Did I miss the part where you measured case headspace before and after sizing??? Trimming is also about truing up the end of the case. Who cares if it stays short enough if it’s not going to release the bullet consistently?
Interesting video. I have never heard of the X-Die but it might be worth trying. I assume you did not anneal the brass during your testing - that might be something to look into (just because inquisitive minds need to know). Thanks for sharing!
Curious about the effect of annealing. Also wonder about inside diameter/neck tension through your many reloadings? If the brass can't flow lengthwise it must go somewhere.
I really like you segment on the X die. My question is the sizing die a full length or neck size only. And do you think it would work well in a forester press. I love the idea of not having to trim and not stretching the brass so much each reload.
So Gavin loading a case 20 times doesn’t illustrate any increased case life? Often cases will start showing signs of imminent case head separation long before that. And that isn’t to say the X-die sized cases fail after 20 resizing. Practically all of us that have tested for our selves give up after 20 resizing and call it good. I treat as infinity brass until the case mouth splits from work hardening. Tiny percentage.
i bought the x=die for the 308 but havent even taken it out of the box yet waiting to get some brass for now but im shooting a remington 742 so not really shooting that gun to often maybe a box or 2 a year its my 30-06 that gets shot the most
I just wonder, if new brass was shorter, than the maximum case length is, than is it posible to not trim that case at all even for the very first time?
Interesting that you didn't anneal after each firing. That could make a difference in spring back. Those dies are nothing for me. I trim after every firing and also anneal after every firing. I guess you could just use a mandrel die to push the neck back.
I got a question about him lubing the inside of the mouth with a q-tip. I've not seen this done before. Is this a common practice or is this something you need to do with the X-die in particular? I would have thought lubing the inside of the mouth might give you inconsistent bullet release. What's the deal?
My reloading bench is a hundred feet from my shooting bench which is nice but I’m building a loading shack at my shooting bench . My grandfather had a ww2 radio truck body he used for a reloading room I spent a lot of time in there I’m thinking of finding one instead of building one maybe an old ambulance box would work
When you size a case brass is displaced and flows up the case body towards the case mouth... So where does the brass go with this die? What's the tradeoff here?
This is a very interesting experiment to see. Thank you. My question is, can you retro fit your current dies that do not have the mandrel set up? In other words can you buy the mandrel set up with the X die stem to fit your older RCBS dies?
How much case growth would you get in a bolt action precision rifle anyway? What about firing it in an AR platform like a high power rifle? I've seen 0.015" growth in a single shot on a semi-auto.
@@maurygold74 I would also like to see measurements of neck runout and thickness after the sizing. That brass WILL flow forward throughout the press stroke to the end and then get crushed backwards. You are trading a normal step in the process (trimming) for at least one or more problems.
I’m curious where the brass to flowing or how much it’s getting work hardened but this seems like a good die for AR-15 plinking brass that often gets lost in the weeds.
I have a set of these in 220 Swift, it mostly works alright, still have to trim about every 6 or 7 reloads. But swift brass only lasts about 8 or 9 reloads for me.
Oh WOW! No schlep of trimming! AWESOME! Question/-s: That appears to be a FL die, thus no place for a bushing die to neck size? What is the consistency on the neck ID/neck tension: the x-die ball expander vs using (e.g.) APW ID mandrel? And, consistency with the x-die in bumping shoulders back 1/1000 (or 2/1000)? Thnx
On full pressure 5.56 I would start to worry about case neck thickness.the brass is still flowing to the neck with every firing and is now just getting pushed back into the neck area adding thickness.
Noob question - does this work on rifles other than bolt-actions? If I have multiple rifles firing the same ammo, is that harder on brass or different than what was shown in this video?
I've used these for 308 and 224 valk semi auto platforms. They work as described, saves time and accuracy is not affected. I shoot out to 1000 yrds. Only have one rifle in each caliber, so I can't speak to your other question
I noticed when you were lubing your cases you used a q-tip with sizing die wax on the inside of your case neck. Is this a standard practice you use when sizing any and all brass?
So I am very confused. The expander is normally attached to the decapping pin and you determine the "depth" of it by the protrusion of the pin. What does screwing the expander down more do in this die that made such a difference? It is still going through an expanded case mouth from the firing process, hiding out in the body of the case while the neck is being sized down, and then being pulled through the now smaller neck and expanding it's diameter to the prescribed dimension. Is it just that the necking down and then back up is reduced, thereby reducing the stretch caused by pulling the expander through?
Are these results for making rounds that are specifically for one rifle? Also what about semiautomatic rifles? Its my understanding the cases stretch even more in a semi auto.
Question to rifle reloaders. I reload pistol mostly but picked up a couple of neat rifles that need feeding (an italian M1 Garand in 308 and a Hakim in 8mm mauser). And am looking at trimming and sizing. So... why not just trim a little short and be done with it? It might not be super accurate but if there it a couple thousand of growth over the life of the brass why not just take it down minus 5 thou? For sizing I will probably need to full length sizing each time because they are auto loaders? Any economical 8mm mauser projectiles recommended? I cant seem to find anything that isnt crazy expensive. I can buy a box of 20 cartridges for about $40 (canadian dollars). Primers are still expensive at 25 cents each, used brass maybe 25 cents, powder about 30 cents, if the projectile is 50+ cents... then i start to approach factory prices pretty quickly. The "good" news is the Hakim is so over gassed that it damages pretty much every rim. I will need to make a drill a gas plug to bleed some gas off. The M1 batters the brass so its not much better. I also shoot indoors which sucks. Between all of these I MIGHT be able to reload a brass 3 times before it is wrecked or lost.
The issue is not only not trimming but also no case head separation. If you trim then eventually the brass flow from head to case mouth thins the case head area to where it can burst in firing. You will see a lighter ring in the brass when it thins out. With the X-Die the brass does not flow to the neck, in spite of contrary suppositions. Rather than losing brass to incipient case head separation thinning, with the X-die the usual case failure is case mouth splitting after many many reloading. I’ve tested for myself and watch several others test like Gavin did and we all give up after 20 reloadings. It could well last to 30, but nobody OCD enough has gone through the trouble to test to failure. It is beyond 20 loads for sure.
I've heard you shouldn't run commercial hunting loads in the Garand. These are designed for bolt guns, and the pressures and gas are too much for these WW2 autoloaders.
@@Freetospeak71 That was my thought as well. Its almost always better to shove metal back into shape instead of removing it from the item. The only negative would be pushing it back enough that it buckles the neck but that is just a setup issue. But for conventional trimming is there any reason to not over trim to reduce the need to trimming as often? And since the cartridge indexes off the shoulder then what is the concern with the neck growing in length? The chamber must be tight to the end of the neck. If it is too long then it binds the neck into the end of the chamber. If it's too short there would be a carbon ring which would be a mess. Thats the best I can come up with so far.
@@VeryFast986 I have heard this too but these Italian rifles are more modern military rifles. They used these for quite some time. They are also chambered in 308 instead of 30-06 so the unnecessary extra power of the bigger cartridge isn't there. That being said I was trying to find lower power or lower pressure reloading formulas because I don't need a lot to shoot paper :p
Did you anneal the brass before the testing? I set up my annealer after the first firing and anneal all of the brass to be reloaded and it seems to allow for better sizing and chambering. I've done a lot of .223 before I started the annealing process and had a ton of reloads that just wouldn't chamber. After the annealing process I have practically zero chambering issues.
I only use the X-die for my high volume shooting calibers like AR15 and M1Garand. For bolt guns I just don’t run through that much brass so an occasional trim is no big deal and brass replacement is also not that often. But going through hundreds of cases several times a year the X-die saves quite a bit of time. The main issue is keeping already X-die sized brass separate from any new brass before it has gone through its first sizing and trim.
Here's a question with no answer to be found: After using the xDie can than same brass be sent through a regular FL sizing die? I have a bunch of brass i sized with an small base x die only to find out the runout was awful so i sold the set.
That's what worried me watching this. If you mag dump 5.56 then it's probably gtg. If you want accuracy it seems there are much better options out there.
I believe that they have been discontinued, but we have quite a stash of older Hornady bullets on hand here at UR. Doesn't really matter for this video, as the focus is the case, not the bullet.
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Bought one back in the 1990’s when it first came out for my Colt National Match AR-15 in .223 and it worked great. Used military and commercial brass with no issues. Was using Accurate 2200 powder and 62 grain bullets.
Nice to see some innovation. Well done RCBS and UR!
Was that piece of brass annealed during the test ?
Very informative. Some of the comments remind me of when some “long time reloaders” swore that 3-5 reloading were all you could get “safely” from brass. Well that myth has died but still some persist. Then the myth about “never a need to anneal” vs those that said if you don’t anneal you will only get 2-3 reloads……that myth died. Yet still some persist.
Gavin does real world testing. He can’t test every variable, but he chases the main ones and provides data vs opinion. What I like is that even Gavin sometimes has his own opinions challenged by his own data!
Great channel G-man. Keep up the great info!
What I would like to know is some more info on using the burn rate chart to come up with a load given bullet weight changes within caliber. Using 223 and 6.5 Creedmoor would be interesting since those are very popular.
Thanks Gavin for another video. Definitely my favorite channel. Love that you are driven by data and engineering. I’m and engineer as well so it’s nice to see another data driven gun nerd and it’s nice to see you using every man’s reloading equipment even though you’ve got area 419 gear everywhere! Can’t lie, a favorite on mine too but some of it’s just more than I’d care to spend. Keep it up!!
@@1jordanledwards1 obviously you haven't seen too many of his videos. Majority of which use nothing but Ulta high dollar equipment that only the very wealthy can afford. And normally he has three or more of everything. Am I jealous? Bet your ass I am. The reason I am bitchiñg is he's turned into a shill! And that's just sad.
I’ve used the X-dies for over 20 years. Never have an issue. I regular size, trim to say 1.747” for .223, set the X-die to a case that measures exactly 1.750”. Fire, resize with X-die and just repeat and repeat. The cases will eventually fail with split case mouth from work hardening. Have not had case head separation or signs of it. It works as advertised. This is for plinking, shooting steel, and casual target accuracy shooting. If you are doing real tight precision loading I can’t say if it is appropriate or not. But my brass seems to last forever and over time I get 1-2% loss from split mouths which is much less than I lose to range setups making brass retrieval difficult.
I love your idea of having a reference trimmed case. Can just keep dialing it into it.
I love the Ultimate Reloader videos - I've learned so much. This is the first time, though, I've felt that it was more of a sales pitch with awkward rationalizations than a rigorous, unbiased review. If you look at the case shoulders at 5:43, as someone else mentioned, there is something seriously wonky with the case on the right (20 round case). It looks exactly what you would expect it to look like if a too-long neck was restricted in the die and crushed down the shoulder. The shoulder angle is different than the 8 shot round and looks deformed and inconsistent. I cannot imagine those two rounds would headspace the same.
I use the x-die for 223 for high power rifle match loads. It works as advertised and has eliminated the need for repeated trimming. I trim to 1.740 and set the die to limit to 1.750. I get consistent accuracy for match loads. I found out about it from Konrad who has a RUclips channel here. I learned from him not to waste time doing reloading things that don’t improve target scores.
@@Glockman-ps3fo then what would I use my henderson trimmer for? Lol
Great product. I use these for 308 and 224 Valk.
Works as described by manufacturer. Recommend.
👍🏻👍🏻
That single case went through hell this episode
Fancy die aside I enjoyed watching your reloading process start to finish and comparing it my own. I use almost all of the same equipment.
Very interesting concept. I have to believe brass continues to flow upward but the pilot stops it from lengthening. Did the neck thickness increase after each shot?
No that isn’t how it flows. Without the X-die brass is allowed to push up as the case is squeezed. As the neck stretches it pulls brass up from the length down to the case head. But if the neck is stopped from moving up the case head is not pushing it up. It is more like the case mouth pulls it. So stop the case neck and there is no flow.
Thanks you for doing this kind of testing mate. Much appreciated. Yours Sincerely, Average Jo..
I use a Redding body die (bumping shoulder about 2 though) and Lee collet die ( in that order ) for my 22-250 cases, very minimal stretching. Primer pockets loosened up by the 13th reload.
Awesome vid. Like the fact you used basic tools that the average Joe reloader has on his bench
Curious to see the results annealing the brass after every firing. Data points to the brass reaching maximum work hardness at about round 15 and after that springback becomes more noticeable. Wonder how much of this has to do with not annealing between firings, and how much of it is a result of the product.
Thanks for the video!
This was a question I was thinking throughout the video. I've waited till the end to see if he would address that, but to no avail.
Also does the neck get thicker by pushing the brass back. If so the neck tension will be messed up. I would rather trim than turn necks.
@@greasydot We know the brass has to go somewhere.. If it's prevented from growing the neck then where is it going? My guess is the shoulder/neck junction of the brass.
Ever see what happens to brass when you expand or seat with excess resistance? The whole shoulder collapses or bells out in that exact area.
Combined with not annealing I can see this creating an issue in this area leading to eventual separation.
Also of interest would be a case capacity test with the virgin brass vs the 20x fired. Its very possible that a "Donut" is building in that junction area and affecting internal case capacity. Good luck trimming THAT one out.
I think this type of a sizer would work great for straight wall brass like 45-70 or pistol cartridges but personally I will stick to my conventional Forster sizers for anything with a shoulder.
@@ThePleasedDoge think I'll just stay with my bushing dies and case trimmer just because I don't need to spend any more money. 😂😂😂😂
When I was testing how long my Starline 6.5 Grendel would last using a normal die I noticed when I annealed it stretched way more!
An interesting thing about the comment section is that people who haven’t used it are the most vocal in their dislike, while those who have used it are quite pleased. 🤔
Well said!
That's exactly what I noticed researching the x die! Those with uneducated opinions scoff at it when they hear trim case to minimum.
@@richardlindquist5936 I can't disagree with that. No I haven't used this die so I really hope you are correct. But my dime won't be spent on this questionable technology. If you have it and it works for you, that's great. Carry on.
Thanks for this topic! I use this die on 30.06 for my M1 Garand. I usually still have to check and trim the brass. My M1 beats up the brass quite a bit. To be safe, I usually replace the brass after 5 firings. I'll try Lapua brass and see.
You can probably relax a bit. I use this die for M1 also (loading for 150gn, w/H4895) and i have several sets of brass that is approaching 20 reloads
I bought the x die 12 years ago and just now getting back to reloading. The instructions that came with mine differ slightly for the initial setup (titled Preparing Your Cases) for the first sizing. At the 3 minute mark when you tighten the mandrel lock ring, you tightened the mandrel until hard resistance is felt. My instructions say to back the mandrel out 1 to 2 turns after hard resistance and then tighten the lock ring. This is prior to trimming .020 from case max length. After trimming, the instructions say to adjust the mandrel exactly as you did prior to trimming. Perhaps the instructions changed since 12 years ago, or it didn't matter for your .223 cases. I wonder if that holds for other case sizes. The instructions are confusing as #%*$ which is why I'm here. Thank you for thoroughly testing the x die! I've seen mixed reviews but your test gives me confidence using it.
From my understanding you initially adjusted the die before you trimmed it. I would think if you want it resized to the trimmed length you would set the die after trimming.
I requested you to do a video on the RCBS X-Base die back on 14 Jan. Glad you got around to it.
Gavin, wondering if you could do a video on the RCBS X-Base sizing die. Set up and what the benefit is. Thank you.
Are you annealing brass at any point in these 20 firings?
Is the brass flowing toward the shoulder / neck and creating a thicker case mouth?
I would love it to not have to trim brass but I gotta think work hardening / neck tension / creating a bulge / chambering would become a problem.
I guess I’m just going to get a RCBS X die myself and put it to the test but I’ve gotta think trimming brass is the way to go because that’s the way it’s been done for 100 years!
I have this die for my 5.56’s and haven’t set it up. I think I’ll give it a try. Thanks!!
If instructions are followed, you won't be disappointed.
I've wondered about these dies for years but never investigated them. Watching this has opened more questions than I have time to document.
It seems the mandrel does the work. I need one to fit my Dillon FL Carbide Sizer Die but equipped with a carbide expander ball.
It would seem annealing should be part of the process for consistent bullet release. About every 5th cycle maybe especially for gas guns.
Just starting to load.
Thanks for the free master classes.
Steep learning curve but worth the effort. I never run out of ammo these days.
Thank you. Great experiment.
Thank for this, I have never really looked into what the X dies were, I saw them, didn't follow them but wow, this really fits into my use case. I think a lingering question is, is there benefit to annealing the brass? My thinking is yes, since the case will still go through work-hardening when fired and resized. So I think I will continue to anneal unless something compelling comes up here, stating its bad to do so. :D
I would only use the small base die for the first re-sizing. Cases should be fire formed to your chamber after that. Effectively under-sizing every time is overworking your brass. I have done this with .308 - small base die for first sizing and then the regular X-Die for subsequent sizing. However, I wouldn’t be comfortable shooting the same case more than 5 or 6 times in any semiauto without annealing.
After watching the great video that was the first question that came to mind . How often do you anneal ? I anneal all bottle neck cases before trimming .If you were going to do controled batchs of brass do you not anneal after that first trimming ?
@ I don’t anneal brass (yet). However, it makes complete sense to anneal after the sizing that stretches cases enough to require trimming. Your comment also makes me think that if the X-Die moves brass less, it might reduce the need to anneal going forward.
@chipsterb4946 Fireforming not so good for those of us with autos. Small base good.
@@richardlindquist5936 if by “auto” you mean a machine gun, then a small base die could be a good idea. However, your brass life will be short - the exact opposite of the point of this video. If you mean semi-auto, then routinely using a small base die over works the brass unless there is something wrong with your rifle. The small base dies were created so you could take milsurp brass that has been fired in a machine gun with an over-sized chamber. Or one that functions in a way that case are ejected *before* they can spring back a bit inside the chamber. IOW you try a normal sizing die first. If that doesn’t reduce the case diameter sufficiently to fit in your case gauge, then re-size with the small base sizing die.
This seems cool! Has RCBS come out with something to handle the case swell around the belt on belted magnums? I feel like it’s something they could incorporate into a resizing die. There’s a company that created a collet to address it.
I can't help but think there is one heck of a donut forming
Seems as though the setup instructions may be wrong or incomplete. Logically, it would seem that you would want to size with the mandrel backed out, then trim, then put the sized and trimmed case back in and then set the mandrel for the case mouth shoulder to make contact.
By setting the mandrel prior to trimming, it should be expected that its going to be long with any subsequent firing and sizing because you set the mandrel (case mouth shoulder) to an initial longer pre-trimmed length, so the case has room to grow from trimmed length till it contacts that shoulder. Example, lets say that after sizing and and setting the mandrel as you did and then trimmed say 10thou to get the 1.740 length, because you set that the mandrel prior to trimming, you effectively set it to 1.750, so next sizing would allow it to grow to 1.750 before the case mouth shoulder could do anything to try to stop it from growing.
Very interesting. Considering it will likely appeal to high volume loaders, I wonder if they will make a carbide version.
Seems like this is incredibly useful for progressive setups; decap and clean, then have this on station 1 and just go.
I only use small base dies for semi autos. I only trim and neck size for bolt guns. Im slightly skeptical. I clean military brass, ream the primer pockets, prime, dump in Blc2 or varget and get 10 shot dime sized groups with that Hornaday 75 grainer in my CZ . I do the same with 308. I used to watch old timers scoop a case full of IMR4831 in the 06 and cram a 180 gr bullet in. I've done very well not overcomplicting things. Everyone enjoy your hobby the way you like. Just be safe.
At 5:43 you can tell that there is deformation at the shoulder of the case between the 8th firing and the 20th firing, and that is coming from a bolt gun. I own this die as well. I would use .223 cases out of my Ar15s, and eventually that part of the case would crush. If you could be so kind, I would like you (Gavin) to give us data using the same process coming out of an AR15 and show us the results. I think a lot of us would use this die for our gas guns, and not our bolt guns.
Hey man, for 8 firings, I'll take it!
@@jonathanschubert9052 Lets not forget the rifle that Gavin is shooting it out of. It is a custom precision made rifle with a tight chamber that can shoot lights out with the correct load. I want to see how a case will hold up on a duty rifle like a Colt or BCM.
I’ve used it 20 years to reload for multiple AR15s. No issues. Works as advertised.
Being able to load 1 fire 1 is a dream. I have to drive 20 minutes to an indoor range and give them $30. I think i can come and go as much as I want each day but still. I am jealous.
Great video
Did I miss the part where you measured case headspace before and after sizing???
Trimming is also about truing up the end of the case. Who cares if it stays short enough if it’s not going to release the bullet consistently?
Interesting video. I have never heard of the X-Die but it might be worth trying. I assume you did not anneal the brass during your testing - that might be something to look into (just because inquisitive minds need to know). Thanks for sharing!
Curious about the effect of annealing. Also wonder about inside diameter/neck tension through your many reloadings? If the brass can't flow lengthwise it must go somewhere.
I really like you segment on the X die. My question is the sizing die a full length or neck size only. And do you think it would work well in a forester press. I love the idea of not having to trim and not stretching the brass so much each reload.
We need more data , accuracy, neck tension, velocity changes , overall case life extended or not ??? Sounds like another U.R. video to me 😂
It's not the ultimate reloader, it's the ultimate joker
So Gavin loading a case 20 times doesn’t illustrate any increased case life? Often cases will start showing signs of imminent case head separation long before that. And that isn’t to say the X-die sized cases fail after 20 resizing. Practically all of us that have tested for our selves give up after 20 resizing and call it good. I treat as infinity brass until the case mouth splits from work hardening. Tiny percentage.
i bought the x=die for the 308 but havent even taken it out of the box yet waiting to get some brass for now but im shooting a remington 742 so not really shooting that gun to often maybe a box or 2 a year its my 30-06 that gets shot the most
I just wonder, if new brass was shorter, than the maximum case length is, than is it posible to not trim that case at all even for the very first time?
Center mass at 300yds is good enough for me. Either way there are follow up shots. I just need a 10"window of effect/accuracy.
Interesting that you didn't anneal after each firing. That could make a difference in spring back. Those dies are nothing for me. I trim after every firing and also anneal after every firing. I guess you could just use a mandrel die to push the neck back.
I got a question about him lubing the inside of the mouth with a q-tip. I've not seen this done before. Is this a common practice or is this something you need to do with the X-die in particular? I would have thought lubing the inside of the mouth might give you inconsistent bullet release. What's the deal?
My reloading bench is a hundred feet from my shooting bench which is nice but I’m building a loading shack at my shooting bench . My grandfather had a ww2 radio truck body he used for a reloading room I spent a lot of time in there I’m thinking of finding one instead of building one maybe an old ambulance box would work
But what did change on the brass? Measure the 20 times fired brass at all points. Cut it. Measure thickness. It sounds interesting. More data needed.
When you size a case brass is displaced and flows up the case body towards the case mouth...
So where does the brass go with this die?
What's the tradeoff here?
excellent question. I wonder if the neck walls are getting thicker.
This is a very interesting experiment to see. Thank you. My question is, can you retro fit your current dies that do not have the mandrel set up? In other words can you buy the mandrel set up with the X die stem to fit your older RCBS dies?
Thats fantastic
Would have been interested in seeing multiple cases run through you test.
How much case growth would you get in a bolt action precision rifle anyway? What about firing it in an AR platform like a high power rifle? I've seen 0.015" growth in a single shot on a semi-auto.
Wonder what happens when you anneal the neck if it will collapse the neck/shoulder junction
Brass has to move somewhere, i think that shoulder stop is gonna make dounuts around the neck on properly annealed brass
Wonder what the loaded neck diameter was before and after.
100%. I'm also not a fan of these pilots, I like sinclair expander mandrels. There are no free lunches.
@@ironDsteele absolutely correct.
This. The brass is either going to donut at the neck, shoulder or .2 - none of which is better than trimming.
@@maurygold74 I would also like to see measurements of neck runout and thickness after the sizing. That brass WILL flow forward throughout the press stroke to the end and then get crushed backwards. You are trading a normal step in the process (trimming) for at least one or more problems.
Quick question does this do the same as the wilson mandrel? I am new to reloading, love your channel.
Yeah I’ve had soooo many cases get stuck in x die. Still one stuck. And the case rim broke and actual case is stuck even still. Not happy
I’m curious where the brass to flowing or how much it’s getting work hardened but this seems like a good die for AR-15 plinking brass that often gets lost in the weeds.
Been looking at these lately.
I had some cartridges reloaded after firing them it was hard to extract the casing .
Curious to see one on a progressive like a Dillon
I wonder whether you'd see these same results in an autoloader.
I have a set of these in 220 Swift, it mostly works alright, still have to trim about every 6 or 7 reloads. But swift brass only lasts about 8 or 9 reloads for me.
Oh WOW! No schlep of trimming! AWESOME!
Question/-s: That appears to be a FL die, thus no place for a bushing die to neck size? What is the consistency on the neck ID/neck tension: the x-die ball expander vs using (e.g.) APW ID mandrel? And, consistency with the x-die in bumping shoulders back 1/1000 (or 2/1000)?
Thnx
What about shooting the same piece of brass out of several different rifles?
Looks just like another magical gimic for us.
The Die has an internal bore the limits growth because the case hits that bore and STOPS.
Growth is limited because the end has no space to grow.
sounds good but do these short dies have an affect on shoulder bump for head space
you did not measure shoulder bump before and after full sizing
On full pressure 5.56 I would start to worry about case neck thickness.the brass is still flowing to the neck with every firing and is now just getting pushed back into the neck area adding thickness.
I noticed you don't clean the lube from inside the neck. Is this common practice? I've always cleaned it but maybe I'm wasting my time.
I’m curious too on annealing. Never mentioned annealing that case. 20 firings for one case and zero annealing? Dang, I anneal every time.
I never anneal.
Would annealing change these results any? Since we know that "brass flows", I'm wondering.
Noob question - does this work on rifles other than bolt-actions? If I have multiple rifles firing the same ammo, is that harder on brass or different than what was shown in this video?
I've used these for 308 and 224 valk semi auto platforms. They work as described, saves time and accuracy is not affected. I shoot out to 1000 yrds. Only have one rifle in each caliber, so I can't speak to your other question
I use for AR15 and M1 Garands.
How do you know when your barrel is burned out.
How does this affect accuracy over the life of the case.
Was any annealing done before reaching the 20 firings?
Can you install a new mandrill into your old die body ?
Fish gotta swim,
Birds gotta fly,
Brass gotta flow,
despite the X-dies,
Can't help wantin' to know just why.
(with apologies to Kern and Hammerstein)
Where the hell did you get Varget? Haven't seen any available since before covid.
I hate trimming, so this definitely appeals to me.
Thanks for the video!
I noticed when you were lubing your cases you used a q-tip with sizing die wax on the inside of your case neck. Is this a standard practice you use when sizing any and all brass?
Can you anneal and have the same effect?
So I am very confused. The expander is normally attached to the decapping pin and you determine the "depth" of it by the protrusion of the pin. What does screwing the expander down more do in this die that made such a difference? It is still going through an expanded case mouth from the firing process, hiding out in the body of the case while the neck is being sized down, and then being pulled through the now smaller neck and expanding it's diameter to the prescribed dimension. Is it just that the necking down and then back up is reduced, thereby reducing the stretch caused by pulling the expander through?
How do you know if the brass you are using is quality brass.
Are these results for making rounds that are specifically for one rifle? Also what about semiautomatic rifles? Its my understanding the cases stretch even more in a semi auto.
very cool
What is your Rcbs mounted too? The metal stand on top of the bench! I like the set up compared to an edge of table!
I'm pretty sure he uses stuff from Inline Fabrication. He's done videos about them in the past.
Did you not anneal the brass between resizing?
Pretty cool.
I may have missed it, did you anneal?
Question to rifle reloaders. I reload pistol mostly but picked up a couple of neat rifles that need feeding (an italian M1 Garand in 308 and a Hakim in 8mm mauser). And am looking at trimming and sizing.
So... why not just trim a little short and be done with it? It might not be super accurate but if there it a couple thousand of growth over the life of the brass why not just take it down minus 5 thou?
For sizing I will probably need to full length sizing each time because they are auto loaders?
Any economical 8mm mauser projectiles recommended? I cant seem to find anything that isnt crazy expensive. I can buy a box of 20 cartridges for about $40 (canadian dollars). Primers are still expensive at 25 cents each, used brass maybe 25 cents, powder about 30 cents, if the projectile is 50+ cents... then i start to approach factory prices pretty quickly.
The "good" news is the Hakim is so over gassed that it damages pretty much every rim. I will need to make a drill a gas plug to bleed some gas off. The M1 batters the brass so its not much better. I also shoot indoors which sucks. Between all of these I MIGHT be able to reload a brass 3 times before it is wrecked or lost.
The issue is not only not trimming but also no case head separation. If you trim then eventually the brass flow from head to case mouth thins the case head area to where it can burst in firing. You will see a lighter ring in the brass when it thins out. With the X-Die the brass does not flow to the neck, in spite of contrary suppositions. Rather than losing brass to incipient case head separation thinning, with the X-die the usual case failure is case mouth splitting after many many reloading. I’ve tested for myself and watch several others test like Gavin did and we all give up after 20 reloadings. It could well last to 30, but nobody OCD enough has gone through the trouble to test to failure. It is beyond 20 loads for sure.
I've heard you shouldn't run commercial hunting loads in the Garand. These are designed for bolt guns, and the pressures and gas are too much for these WW2 autoloaders.
@@Freetospeak71 That was my thought as well. Its almost always better to shove metal back into shape instead of removing it from the item. The only negative would be pushing it back enough that it buckles the neck but that is just a setup issue.
But for conventional trimming is there any reason to not over trim to reduce the need to trimming as often? And since the cartridge indexes off the shoulder then what is the concern with the neck growing in length?
The chamber must be tight to the end of the neck. If it is too long then it binds the neck into the end of the chamber. If it's too short there would be a carbon ring which would be a mess. Thats the best I can come up with so far.
@@VeryFast986 I have heard this too but these Italian rifles are more modern military rifles. They used these for quite some time. They are also chambered in 308 instead of 30-06 so the unnecessary extra power of the bigger cartridge isn't there. That being said I was trying to find lower power or lower pressure reloading formulas because I don't need a lot to shoot paper :p
Did you anneal the brass before the testing? I set up my annealer after the first firing and anneal all of the brass to be reloaded and it seems to allow for better sizing and chambering. I've done a lot of .223 before I started the annealing process and had a ton of reloads that just wouldn't chamber. After the annealing process I have practically zero chambering issues.
Damn, now I need to buy a dozen new dies.
I only use the X-die for my high volume shooting calibers like AR15 and M1Garand. For bolt guns I just don’t run through that much brass so an occasional trim is no big deal and brass replacement is also not that often. But going through hundreds of cases several times a year the X-die saves quite a bit of time. The main issue is keeping already X-die sized brass separate from any new brass before it has gone through its first sizing and trim.
Here's a question with no answer to be found:
After using the xDie can than same brass be sent through a regular FL sizing die?
I have a bunch of brass i sized with an small base x die only to find out the runout was awful so i sold the set.
That's what worried me watching this. If you mag dump 5.56 then it's probably gtg. If you want accuracy it seems there are much better options out there.
can i reload 223 remington cases to 5.56 nato data if i’m firing it in a 5.56 nato chamber so i can avoid crimped primers?
Where the hell did you find Hornady .224 75 gr A-Max bullets?? are those discontinued, or not released yet??
I believe that they have been discontinued, but we have quite a stash of older Hornady bullets on hand here at UR. Doesn't really matter for this video, as the focus is the case, not the bullet.
Does this work for multiple guns or just one?
What did the chamfer look like throughout the test?
Great question
Plz test 6ARC ALPHA MUNITIONS brass.
Not sure if collapsing the brass length by forcing the mouth down during resizing is a great strategy
Time will tell.
What about annelling the case first or during the reloading ?