90% of the people in this comment section know little to nothing about how ATC actually works. Pilot hero syndrome dominates their inexpert opinions. Here's what a real controller thinks: _I know the controller in that tape, and I know the circumstances surrounding this event. I listened to the whole thing, and I totally understand what happened there. I've been in that situation many times. it is one of the reasons why ground delays due to weather are perhaps a bit longer than they need to be. We have a very dense airspace, and each airport within N90 boundaries has it's allocated airspace and departure tracks. You deviate from one, and you're going into another, which belongs to somebody else. If you can't fly the assigned route immediately after departure, then why did they accept that takeoff clearance?_ _What happened in that particular situation on that day, GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open at the time, and departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB and MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki) were being launched at the same time. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA departure airspace, not to mention that try NOT penalize all the other aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can hit becomes available._ jetcareers.com/forums/threads/shamrock-104-heavy-vs-nyc-atc.262634/page-2#post-2801516
P*Funk Excellent! Thank you for that. I have retired from ATC, but, when I first listened, I knew there had to be some other contributing factors. So now we can see why the controller became frustrated, seeing his slot go out the window.
I don't agree with you at all. As both a pilot and passenger I have been in situations where what ATC is seeing is vastly different in terms of weather than what a PIC is seeing in the left seat at altitude. I do agree sometimes pilots make decisions to take advantage of situations. However, given the insane weather NY has seen this week and the the fact that regulations state the pilot in command has final discretion to accept or decline ATC, the pilot was 100% in the right here. The pilot thought he could fly the accepted route, saw weather that would not allow that when airborne and made a decision in the interest of his passengers and aircraft...period.
In my non-expert opinion, we have a set of conflicting goals, the pilot is not comfortable flying the course given by ATC, ATC just has had no prior issues routing other aircraft that way nor reports that the weather is bad. I don't see a reason to be chippy, because that makes a crappy situation worse. If your recourse as ATC is to have him do donuts till the pilot gets dizzy then do that, I think there was probably a better way to relay the information that the course ahead was the best possible route though. At the end of the day the PIC is the one that has to deal with the consequences of ATCs choices.
I think I interpreted the conflict differently than most of the comments. To me, the pilot took issue with ATC saying "you got yourself into this situation" and interpreted that to mean ATC felt the pilot had made a mistake of some kind, thus the battle to try and clear their names (both ATC and the pilot) began. Classic high stress communication breakdown.
@Craven Moorehead wrong, it's their plane, safety is their first priority. you trust YOUR equipment before any ATC. there was a fatal incident where 2 planes collided in air as their equipment was telling one plane to descent, while the other plane to go up... unfortunately, an ATC told the plane that had their TCAS saying descent to go up instead and the other one only listened to their TCAS and wasnt able to hear the ATC. the result of that was both planes crashed into eachother. the ASB immediately ruled that TCAS is ALWAYS priority over ATC and it should be with any equipment unless proven faulty imo.
@@APCLZ yeah, not in NY bud. You can see 3 of the busiest airports in the world from the top of your building. If you can not take thr assigned route, you stay on the ground. That is like driving a car onto the freeway blindfolded, and telling your navigator "no thanks, I am going to drive the opposite side of the highway first. Make those cars move around me"
@@abdul-hadidadkhah1459 I live and work here under the airspace in question. It isnt about living here that makes it more important. It is the air traffic. And what are you smoking? What is the busiest airspace then? You mention Newark and Laguardia and completely ignore JFK. Newark itself might not be the busiest airport but that doesn't matter because two more major airports are within miles of it. Hence why you don't get to claim "aircraft safety" when you are endangering the patterns for 3 major airports the criss cross. Not to mention the helicopter traffic and the traffic from the handful of smaller airports all within miles of Newark. Or even traffic passing headed for other major airports in the far vicinity like Boston. You dont get to play around and not follow ATC instruction when you roll through this town. If you need space to fuck around you could instantly be diverting 30 planes
If you, as PIC, feel that your assigned route is unsafe you have the responsibility to deviate. However, especially in busy class B like New York, that may mean a hold or delay vectors afterwards until you can be resequenced, it's not carte blanche to do what you'd like.
Just have to remember that while yes as PIC you have ultimate responsibility for the safety of your aircraft and have to do what you feel is safe, but ATC does also have responsibility to keep a whole sky full of aircraft safe and are due to same courtesy while they do what they need to do in order to do that job.
@irshi Well ATC is always working to ensure all the aircraft in their care are safe and will do everything in their power to aid an aircraft in distress, but they will not jeopardise the safety of other aircraft to do so nor should you expect them to do so. My point was simply that yes at no point should a pilot accept a clearance they judge to be unsafe, but that such a decision should never be taken frivolously either nor should the pilot expect ATC to immediately be able to resolve the conflict your decision creates either. ATC is not in the habit of making frivolous requests so by refusing you are almost certainly putting them in the position of having to issue instructions to one or more other aircraft to protect them from you while they plan around your limitations to the best of their ability to facilitate a safe outcome for all the aircraft in their care. Sure it may not be obvious to you why it is taking time to resolve the situation but ATC are professionals doing an important and stressful job to keep everyone safe and it's important to respect that, sorry but if you think they are being petty and personally taking it out on you that is almost certainly a you problem as is you taking that as an excuse to act like a prize dick the reality is that you are being an ass to someone that is simply doing their best to help you.
@@seraphina985 patience is crucial, but many people can't be calm before they go crazy. If you are asked to wait, then you have to do your part & comply
I agree with you but he does not have to have that attitude of it is not the first time for me out of New York then he should have known that it is quite cramped and the ATC has to look for the best option to slot him in again, he made him hold until he found a way, not that many options out of New York
Considerring the stress for both I think they did well. Both recognized the constraints of their situation and acted as they thought was best. Let the tone (controller) and complaint (pilot) be the cost of their huge skills and adaptivety. They vented their emotion and so cleared their system to continue their duties. I commend them both!
Pilot wasn't wrong in what he did but neither was the ATC. Pilot changed what the plan was after takeoff and thus suffered the repercussions from doing so. He shouldn't be complaining about being made to wait.
Precisely, he accepted the departure clearance, after briefing, knowing full well what was ahead of him. He could easily have easily delayed his departure until he felt more comfortable with the prevailing weather conditions. I chalk this up to "get-there-itis" and a total lack of regard for accepted operating procedures in some of the world's busiest airspace.
@@dennisgordon2789 & Richard Vaughn pilot said he had a weather cell showing on his on-board weather radar that he could not fly though. prior to takeoff, his radar was incapable of showing him that cell. if the radar disagrees with what was planned and briefed, trust the radar, not the briefing, and keep the plane safe.
@ You must get triggered by the most minute characteristics of speech. There was no childish behavior. Just two professionals with differing opinions on the right course of action. This is a normal circumstance, in any line of business. You sir are the child.
At the end of the day he has to follow SOPs and not turn into bad weather on his weather radar just because ATC told him to. It’s actually recommended that if PIC feels the route is unsafe he/she should request an amended clearance.
Not speaking as an expert but imo the pilot first did the right thing when he did not comply with ATC. If he thinks its unsafe because of the wheather thats fine. But when he does that he has to know that he just cannot go back to the normal route immediatly. The ATC accepted his decision and lead him around until there was an opening. He "snapped" at the pilot when he repeadetly asked him to go to GRKI directly.
Both were right in what they did. They both checked each other. Pilot said he doesn't like the way, controller advised no issues with previous flight going this way, pilot stuck with his decision not wanting to go where controller wanted. That's acceptable. He offered a routing that was more to his liking which the controller couldn't accept for fair and square reasons. Aer Lingus didn't mourn about the hold but advised tower continuously of what they'd prefer / what would be possible in their eyes. The controller on the other hand was due to weather really stressed leaving him - understandably - with little patience thus heating up quite quickly. I think this is why many people have an issue with this situation in the first place. if the controller remained (cooler than ice) ice cold nobody would've batted an eye (or ear) Both did their job. Both accepted the others were doing there job. Now, EI could've declined take-off in the first place if they knew they couldn't go their assigned rout anyways, but what the radar show from one position can be a lot different than what it shows from another position. We don't know what showed on the WxRadar. So no need to blame anybody here. It was the system at work, not more, not less.
VASAviation - exactly. I'm a long haul truck driver and I make the final call on whether to proceed into bad weather. Not my dispatch or the broker or the customer. If I jackknife into a school bus during a snowstorm it's my ass that is in trouble, not theirs.
Agreed. Pilot rightly expressed his concern. Pilots have the rights and responsibilities for safe operation of their aircraft. ATC failed to take that into account.
I agree to not reprimand on the R/T, but he did accept a takeoff clearance knowing full well he would not be able to fly the SID. He should have mentioned this before being in the air...no way ATC can anticipate it when other aircraft have been flying the route without issue.
True, he shouldn't have snapped at the EI pilot. Those 893 jets that all made that left turn to GREKI prior to EI104 mean very little. The dynamic factor of weather is always tricky. The way this ended was unnecessary too though, in my opinion. If I were the pilot in this scenario I would've shown some understanding for the weather chaos at an already crazy busy JFK too. After all, the controller did pretty decent after that lil altercation. I wouldn't have ended with those threaths and just let it slip.
A very interesting situation. First, I agree that the PIC has the last say on how the flight will be operated, that is a given. Secondly, I do see the frustration of the controller. The previous departures accepted their clearance, and departed via vectors to Greki, so when EIN 104, did not, it messed him about. Viewing the Wx displayed, and knowing the pilots view, a radar vector to the south and then East, paralleling the previous (Greki) departures, until such time a climb and turn NW to Greki could be issued, might have worked. EIN104, was not placed into a hold, he was vectored. This delay may have been while a new clearance was worked up. One last thing, the pilot could have delayed his departure, and wait out the wx while on the ground. (Could crew time,have been a factor on his decision to depart?) To much gabbing on the radio, not good nor professionally handled by both parties.
Definitely feel like the pilot did the right thing to remain in safe conditions, however in a busy airspace like that I don’t understand how he can get upset with atc for that
@@railgap But the pilot, in this case, knew what was going on. Might be his instrument where wrong, but they seem to state it was unsafe for him to go where they wanted him to go. Not that the ATC did anything wrong either. However, the pilot is responsible for the plane.
@@slappymcgillicuddy7532 that's not strictly true. He ran tower from time to time, although he had the opportunity for some of his "best work" with the more casual setting on ground control. Controllers rotate field positions, but I don't believe he ever did radar control. However, I'm not an expert.
Alot of people are missing the point. Captain refusing to fly the weather - acceptable and within his right Atc giving a vectoring hold until they could get the aircraft through/around/over the weather is also acceptable and within their right The attitude and general speech delivery of the controller is the issue. Instead of trying to help the aer lingus/accommodate the weather concern it comes across as 'fuck you for not wanting to fly through it'. No need to ask why and say everyone else has gone through it, your delay and you got yourself here. Just vector the aircraft or give it a vector to a holding fix without the attitude and it would have been fine
@@B3Band If you don't think that controller didn't speak with an attitude, you're delusional. And why would you want to brag about that being normal NY attitude? Botton line is that controller has a job because the airplane is there, not the other way around. The only weather that really matters is what's outside the left front window.
I think that both the pilot and ATC were at fault here. The pilot needed to accept the fact that GREKI was not possible, as the controller stated. The controller, however, shouldn't pressure a pilot to go through a cell "because every one else has"
Never do something because every one else does. Some planes take heavy weather quit well some not. Some pilots fly through weather and some other doesn't know to handle this weather. Add the airline standards for handling and you get multiple results. If you look at the tests for a new airplane type you get to the point where the human factor is the limit of the construction (12g+ 6g-). There isn't a real danger of dead passanger with a modern jet, but the danger of injuries are real.
This might be true for military fighter jets, transport category aircraft have a load factor limit of 2.5g and -1g , depends a bit on the aircraft but these are the minimums which for example are the case for the A320. This is not a lot, in fact even less than the humble C172 that I fly.
Then knowing that Jgsushi, the captain shouldn't have accepted clearance. End of story. He claims it was not first time in NY, maybe as a tourist, because as a pilot he seemed very Amateur. Sorry that's all I got from that
I’m not a pilot or ATC, but I find this kind of stuff fascinating! I love knowing how systems work- they’re so scientific and technological but intermingled so much with humans, and each have their own fallibilities- well, i have an immense appreciation for both atc and pilots. It’s because of that teamwork and capability that all my flights went terrifically (and if there were problems, it was handled so well that most of us passengers had no clue)!
It is interesting to look into how systems work. Listening to these recordings as someone who hasn't studied how air traffic control works - you start to pick up on certain patterns and the logic of it all after a while. And it makes you respect the human problem solving mind, with how they invent these protocols, how they make certain changes to them after something goes wrong. It is pretty awesome.
ATP, 10K hrs heavy. For petes sake, he accepted the clearance because onboard radar probably didn't show a 40k' cell on the departure path. When he got a little closer, it lit up. No, PIC didn't want to turn his airplane upside down or bend a wing. ATC is seeing NexRad on a minimum of 5min delay, and claimed nobody else is complaining. There also were no departures for the last 10 mins at least as the ground hold had been in place for a while, so that was a bit bogus (WHAT a/c had no complaints?). A WHOLE lot can happen with TRWs in 5 mins of a NexRad sweep, or 15 mins since last westbound release. The controller's sarcastic belittling of this crew by steering him in circles off the departure end of the runway using at least 30 separate heading changes and tieing up the freq for at least 15 mins is ridiculous. He put a lot of people and a/c in a precarious position because of his temper. Everytime 104 flew across the departure path, multiple times for about 10 mins, he created dozens of TCAS blasts. And in the process he was giving the crew a sarcastic tongue lashing like they were little children. I'd bet if we looked at this a bit closer, there was probably another alternative/heading/alt other than the silly penalty circles. In any event, I'd do just as probably every other pilot would do - just as this crew did. FARs are quite clear that PIC has priority in any given safety situation. Security violations are some of the few exceptions. I just wouldn't have wanted to be either of these guys on that day, especially the controller. *Sup should have pulled him right away*; as soon as he saw this getting out of hand. When all the stars line up along with a NY temperament, we can expect the dangers that ensued in this event. Thankfully it went without incident that day, but we're lucky.
The airplane took off and was told to fly straight. His equipment on board told him there was bad weather if he did that, so he asked for permission to go around it. But, in busy airspace, it wasn't possible to give him permission to go around it... so he got put into a holding pattern and didn't like it.
And same here. No idea what the "clouds" in the vid meant either, if clouds = bad weather then going north looked perfectly clear. But again, no idea about any of this...
NYC airspace is pretty intense, even that should be clear to the casual or novice aviator. Had a great ride outta La Guadia 2 years ago through bad weather and every time we saw a break in the clouds below us on climb there was traffic. Now imagine marshalling that lot for an 8 hour shift or whatever. Hats off the controller.
That's the reason why ATCs are only working 120 minutes tops without a half hour break, excluding emergencies. The work is demanding insane concentration and no human can keep that up for 8 hours straight. And even if you could, you would work yourself into the grave in just a few weeks.
Atc was very salty lol. The "for your delay" punishment was particularly *insert bad word* move. At the end of the day, the pilot is responsible for all souls on board and aircraft safety, some Atc are also pilots, I doubt this one was.
*The "for your delay" punishment was particularly insert bad word move.* "For your delay" is phraseology to explain why you're instructing them to do something. The fact that he had to be delayed is because airspace in New York is so congested that in order to fit anyone into the flow you either get your slot right or you delay until there's a gap and gaps are few and far between, hence the constant turning. ATC is also responsible for safety in the air and they're also responsible for assuring safety while also assuring an expeditious flow of traffic. The refusal to go to GREKI caused no other choice in that congested airspace because you have to keep airplanes apart too.
P*Funk thank you for your explanations! For non - experts like me it is quite hard to understand what was going on. And I can see why ATC's frustration was building up...I guess the pilot should have been more patient due to circumstances. There is only one thing I would like to point out: the comment 'you got yourself in that position ' was not necessary in my opinion and makes communication non professional. (Please correct me if this was only another standard phraseology ) . As a physician I would never tell a person with a bad lung disease who has smoked lots of cigarettes in his life 'you got yourself in this position' even if I am in a stressful situation or the patient has been rude. Maybe this is not the best comparison but it just came to my mind 😄
I'm with VAS It is not right to reprimand a captain for reading his weather instruments and trying to keep his aircraft out of dangerous cells. I know New York attitude :) and there is some of it here, complete with a streetwise badda bing accent. Not a good day all around and yes I know ATC has a tough and mentally taxing job. But keep your cool and be professional.
I got a question, would the pilot have seen that weather cell before he accepted the take off clearance or does his equipment only show the weather cell once he is in the air?
I'm sure they saw the weather before takeoff but remember they were instructed "runway heading" after departure. That cell I tried to represent was a little off to the left of the extended centerline so they supposed they would receive vectors to avoid that cell. Then the DEP ATC instructed a left turn that got them directly into the cell and that's why they requested to keep on runway track. That's my guess.
They can see the weather on their screen but their is a delay on displaying it right after the turn for the line up. Some pilot will ask for a delay of 10-20sec so they can make the decision to take off and if it’s ok for take off will a heading they want work with the ATC or if it’s that bad they may say we will wait and taxi off the runway. Other problems is the weather radar does look 360* around the plane and also if the cell is bad enough it might hide other cell behind it.
if your taking off rw 22 your clearance is to maintain rwy hdg and expect radar vectoring to greeki so the pilot didnt know about the left turn before take off and even if he did , some wx radar wont show an acurate wx picture on ground .
I think they were both right. 1. Keep in mind that this is how New Yorkers talk. We are not being aggressive or insulting. But subtlety is not our strong point! 2. The captain decided after accepting a departure clearance that the route didn’t look safe. 3. The controller was nonplussed because other aircraft has flown the route without issue. The controller then put the plane into a hold while trying to determine a new route for this flight. And while juggling dozens of flights into a restricted airspace with poor weather. Leave out the emotions - and what you might construe about New York attitudes - and you have two professionals trying to do the best they can. The parting shot from the Aer Lingus pilot was unnecessary and out of line. He avoided the cell he feared and got back on track shortly after.
Dave Glo • As a non-pilot, I tend to take your position after reading the pros and cons offered up by the aircrafts involved, the ATC, AND the comments made here from both pilots and ATC. What impresses me the most about the whole thing is that this crazy matchup is performed every day, 24/7/365, all over the world, and performed beautifully like a perfect ballet with very, very rarely a mess-up. THAT is what I think is nothing short of amazing. The average passenger has no idea what it takes when they go to the dance!
New Yorkers are indeed direct but when he starts getting overtly confrontational later in the conversation the ATC is wasting time and being unprofessional. The pilot didn't put himself in this position, it was the equipment and training that he had available to him. The ATC makes it personal at exactly the point where he accuses the pilot of creating the situation rather than the weather. He continues to escalate later, by emphasizing that the pilot is not doing what other pilots did (wholly irrelevant, they fly different planes, different training, different instruments). This is not how New Yorkers talk. Under no circumstances would I ever allow another man to talk to me like that unchecked, especially in a professional setting.
@@-BuddyGuy Actually the pilot did put himself "in that postion" - the "position" not being weather, but having to fly circles and wait now for another slot in some extremely complex (not just busy) airspace. Shamrock's insistence that he get to go direct to GREKI multiple times is petulant. You didn't like the weather ok fine, now wait for another turn. No one's upending 7 airports of flights (4 of which are major, 3 of which are int'l) just so Shamrock can jump back in line wherever he wants. He took a pass on his slot (his prerogative) so now he waits for another. He should wait quietly.
New Yorkers are aggressive and insulting. Nobody has to tolerate that kind of shitty attitude just because that's how they always talk in their uncivilised city.
He basically asked for a hold, was given a hold, then wanted to gripe about fuel (presumably the only reason he was so insistent on turning direct GREKI), then decided to clog the channel once he got direct. Bad look for both the pilot and the controller. I agree that it is the pilot's call but the extra banter from both was unprofessional.
Lots of really ignorant finger-wagging going on here by our usual cohort of armchair experts. The pilot can refuse to fly through wispy cirrus clouds if s/he wants to. That's not the point. The point is that when he makes such a decision, good or bad, he must accept the consequences of that decision. In this instance, that meant some vectoring around. ATC wasn't being mean, just trying to maintain required separations, keep everyone safe, and not inconvenience/delay other flights because of this pilot's decision.
My uncle about 20 years ago was flying an air ambulance plane. He was directed towards a storm cell by an ATC. He ended up having to declare an emergency. There was 250 K$ of damage to the plane, and the investigation found that had my uncle not been a former military pilot, the plane probably would have crashed. Some ATC's have God complex. I do understand they have an important job to do, but sometimes they fail to understand what is going on up in the air. They should remember that the pilots have more at stake than they do. Their asses are sitting comfortably on the grounds.
Just sounds like a frustrating day at work for both pilots and controllers. I don't think you can ever really fault the PIC for making decisions that regard to safety but both he an the controller could have worked better together to come up with the safest and most efficient plan without the bickering... That being said they're humans just like you and me so they aren't invulnerable to frustration and emotions. I'm sure if they ever had the opportunity to sit down together and go over the situation a second time they would be able to step in each others shoes and come to a respectful understanding :)
Respect to the Aer Lingus pilot for trusting his weather radar and putting safety first, despite that decision putting them in an annoying hold. I hate flying and I rarely fly with Aer Lingus as they're not exactly a cheap airline, but whenever I did end up flying with them, it was the most relaxed I ever felt on a plane.
It’s not an “annoying hold” the sequencing in that airspace is ridiculously complicated and approach/departure controllers there are almost always saturated. I understand why the pilot did what he did but it throws a wrench in the sequencing and it takes a lot to work an aircraft back in especially when you have 20+ flight strips to work in.
@@pjs835 Still, I feel like safety should always come first and the pilot's decision should be respected. The controller was audibly annoyed by that approach.
@@rinleezFrom what I saw, the pilot agreed to a route on departure. Then, while on air, he decided to deviate. Then asked the contoller to deviate the other flying planes so that he could get back on track. Could be that his initial deviation had to do with safety concerns, and that's understandable. But then again, why ask the ATC to deviate the others instead of waiting for a safe slot so he could get back in? Not fair for the other pilots.
@@andreea007 Besides that, several other aircraft accepted the same clearance and followed through on to their destination. The only aircraft that didn't was Aer Lingus. He got up in the air and changed his mind, which is fine if that's what he feels like he needs to do, but now ATC has to babysit him. So yeah, ATC was annoyed… especially when the pilot started asking to be prioritized for insertion into the sequence for departures. It's a classic, "you made your bed now lie in it."
I think the PIC has the right and responsibility to judge the cell for himself. But after that he has to accept whatever holding pattern the ATC gives him.
if i were in that cab in an airspace as crowded and hectic as nyc and some loser accepted a clearance, then in air said he didn't want to take the turn because he was scared, then i try to get him on his way meanwhile 6 other airplanes take the exact turn he wouldn't AND THEN he says that i was in the wrong? nuh uh i'm going to explain to him how it works in new york. this isn't shannon or munich
This is one of those situations where ATC and the pilot were right in their frustrations. Pilot has to follow his equipment and the controller is most likely saturated and traffic must be crazy difficult in that airspace, especially when pilots aren’t taking turns and messing up the sequencing.
Shamrock 104 Heavy didn't need to get upset. He didn't like the weather, ATC accommodated him and he decided to start a pissing match on frequency. And ATC does have weather displayed on his screen so I can easily see why he would be confused about the refusal. If he is not seeing the cell I wonder exactly what Shamrock was using. They clearly had two different views of the weather.
I dont know exactly where the Kennedy weather radar is located (or if they just use Nexrad), but heavy cells (like the one north of the airfield) can mask/obscure/block other cells. The radar on the aircraft on the other hand will always see what's directly in front of the plane, so to the pilot the cells can indeed look more severe than to the ATC.
@@stephanweinberger cool, but he's the one who chose not to go through it and he was held for it so as not to hold up every other departure who's going right through the weather he's so scared of, so he has zero right to be upset about it.
This is a shit situation and both of them acted like children. ATC was way out of line to critique a pilot for doing what he feels is safe (especially when NEXRAD images are delayed and a/c have live radar). But the pilot didn’t seem to understand that when you deviate from your cleared flight plan, especially in congested airspace, you do not have priority over aircraft on their assigned departure. You’re gonna have to hold. Now I’m not sure if there’s not a waypoint he could’ve held at or if the controller was just being a dick and giving him vectors. Either way, completely inappropriate use of ATC comms. Either both of them need to be reprimanded, or just get over it.
I'm not a pilot, but I've read most of the comments here. Two questions: Does ATC equipment show a wider look at the weather than that on an aircraft? Couldn't ATC radar have seen weather the Shamrock pilot's didn't?
I'm also with Shamrock on this one but if the controller said other aircraft took a left turn, then were they all taking a risk that the Aer Lingus pilot wasn't risking to do?
@@malahammer Actual changes in the weather situation is just one of the factors at play others include aircraft limitations, company limitations (These can be stricter though not looser than the type certificate allows), radar equipment variation (Two radars can "see" the same sky differently and then you have the specifics of how the software interprets that raw radar input which will also vary).
AER LINGUS wants to head out quick, but, other aircrafts from the other airport nearby was coming as well. Nothing that AER LINGUS can do to make it faster. I guess the pilot wants to jeapardize the risk of safety in the name of quickness.
the ATC claim that he has "categories" of weather that the pilot should somehow use to fly the aircraft is BS. ATC just need to do there job.. i could tell in his voice he was annoyed that 104 "did not" do what he wanted... at no point did he want to accept he "could not " do what he wanted. Also claiming the pilot accepted clearance based on weather he could see out the window is also BS. tough job being a controller, even tougher if you think you are always right.. As far as i could tell the pilot just flew the aircraft, tried to get clearance direct to greki but was refused. i did not detect any anymosity from him. all the bad vibes here are coming from the controller.. the problem i have with teh atc is the attitude towards the pilot, asking why he did not comply and attempting to make him feel bad for not being able to make the turn? really? none of the ATC business "why" he cant comply! the pilot does not need a good reason, he is flying! but the pilot told him why anyway... ATC is in a room on the ground! so what you gonna do , this ATC nearly said that he does not believe the pilot! get over yourself.. it says in the description that 90% of people dont know little or nothing about ATC.. well the description is in fact wrong because 104 did not turn the wrong way ! he stayed on heading due to bad weather. if you think that is wrong then you need to retrain... if you are a controller you know that you are not PIC. you are there as guidance which can or cannot be accepted by PIC . PIC must not follow unsafe ATC instructions ... its the LAW.. can you imagine the lawsuit if he blindly accepted an instruction from ATC to fly into bad weather.. ? The PIC is responsible ATC is advisable.. thats the heirachy..
Completely with the PIC here based on the facts as I know them, but the facts that I don't know could change that. ATC snapped at the pilot pretty much immediately and didn't let it go. If, and it's a big if, the pilot took a clearance with the intention on the ground to use pilot's authority once airborne to get a route that would never in a million years have been authorised on the ground, then yes, the exchange is fully justified - the snappy tone from ATC can be explained by the fact that this is New York and putting that aside ATC would have a right to chastise the pilot. But on balance the more likely scenario is that the pilot took the clearance in good faith with different expectations on how he would be routed, in which case ATC is entirely out of line.
*the pilot took the clearance in good faith with different expectations on how he would be routed* Why would that excuse him? New york airspace is notoriously unforgiving with respect to metering the flow during busy hours.
Belief, prior to takeoff, that he would continue runway heading for the period he asked for in the exchange beginning 3:34 before starting to be routed in the direction of his destination, rather than being given a turn into what he considered to be unacceptable weather would excuse him. Knowledge, prior to takeoff, that he would be expected to take a route through what he considered unacceptable weather, would completely change most people's interpretation of this exchange.
Despite other aircraft accepting ATC orders I don't think they were probably flying a long distance "Heavy" which Air Lingus was. Maybe the Air Lingus had better/more modern radar than the US planes but all aircraft are not the same. The Captain has the ultimate responsibility for his flight not someone sitting in ATC possibly with outdated equipment. Kennedy Steve mentioned once about their equipment being outdated!
*Knowledge, prior to takeoff, that he would be expected to take a route through what he considered unacceptable weather, would completely change most people's interpretation of this exchange.* This assumes the pilot is an idiot who is requesting to be allowed to fly into a brick wall because he doesn't like the look of the street he's being told to turn down. You can say the street is unsafe but he's still flying into a brick wall on runway heading and that is known to the pilot regardless of what the weather is like because its New York. The traffic patterns are like brick walls, they're obvious and visible and reliable. The weather is mercurial, but the edifice of New York airspace is like clockwork a mess you can't expect much lee way to navigate but through the correct flow and if you don't want to follow the flow then you get delayed as it occurred.
dave just reports are made, tapes will be pulled for a superior to listen to then any action will be taken against the controller; more than likely a 'just keep your cool' chat, or further action if there's multiple reports against said controller
Also the Aer Lingus crew will have to report the reason for the delay on arrival - "Weather and Grumpy ATC" - European airlines will almost always back up their crew's decision in this situation.
One day, the habit of some pilots having the mic placed directly in front of their mouth, instead of off axis, which can cause totally unnecessary plosive distortion, will be part of a NTSB inquiry!
It's a habit private pilots pick up when using low gain microphones in a noisy GA plane. Doesn't translate well to the higher gain of an airline mic and earpiece.
Everybody except him flew that route but nobody reported any bad weather or requested any deviation, this pilot acts like he's the only pilot over the new york airspace and when he didn't get the attention he wants, he's complaining about it.
So what...? If that pilot wanted to sing a song by Justin Timberlake because he thought it was best and safe for his flight, then he'd be able to do it. Just because this was the only guy asking to go around, doesn't mean ATC should jump on his ass
@JakeC-xx8zq They both had the same attitude. ATC got over irritated that the pilot decided to step out of line (was the only one to do so) because they felt the weather wasn't good enough. The pilot was acting impatient and irritated to get back in line - though you can't just do that. I don't even understand the pilot appearing to think he would fly towards LaGuardia. In the end the pilot is responsible for his plane's safety so it does ATC no good to get irritated... AND, ATC is responsible for the safety of all the planes in their sector - so it does the pilot no good to get irritated at them. Will say the pilot's "my boss will call your boss" was childish. They both lost control of their emotions... let it go. Don't make a case out of it. My previous comment was me just being snarky - no offense
The ATC sounded petty and like he wanted to punish the pilot. The ATC should just have been friendlier. I think both were in the right, but in the end of the day, the pilot has to make the call, and ATC shouldn’t get angry about it. It’s unprofessional. That’s my personal opinion. Tone of voice makes a big difference.
But if he felt the departure path wasn't safe why takeoff? I've never accepted a departure clearance if there is weather in the path. This shows a small lack of foresight in my opinion. New York airspace is incredibly complex and you can't just ask for vectors and get whatever you want. The air traffic controller gave him the hold and waited for both the cell to displace and a gap in departures. The pilot is right to decide not to go into a cell and he did a great job in doing so. He felt it was unsafe while the other pilots felt it was. Now the ATC has to adapt and the only way out was via GREKI and a gap in departures so he held him until the cell cleared. This isn't a punitive action by the controller. The problem is when the attitude comes in by both the pilot and controller. It's a professional disagreement with a less that ideal solution. If stress and tension weren't so high and they had just calmly exchanged problems and solutions, everyone would be praising this as a great example of ATC and Pilot interaction.
@@merkin22 and the ATC got snarky just because that pilot wasn't blindly following the other sheep and dared to act on what he was shown by his equipment (which he classified as unsafe for the crew/passengers/aircraft). Who needs a controller berating you to having put yourself in the situation you're in?
Lexor888 he’s departing jfk and accepted the departure clearance with the weather right in front of him. The controllers in New York have one of the most stressful jobs. The controllers tone wasn’t great but nothing he said was wrong. Gotta love a cautious pilot but both sides could’ve learned and improved from this it was no way one sided
@@asteverino8569 I was told to apply for training. Never did. This job would kill me or someone else or both at the same time. I'm hearing our local airport will be using CAMERAS and have one central TWR for multiple airports. Now that's high-level bullshit for sure.
Any ideas why the Shamrock COM system sounds so garbled. He's barely understandable. His headsets and mic must be junk is all I can figure. Everyone else on frequency is 5X5.
I agree 100% with the Shamrock Pilot, as an former Airline Pilot I WOULD not put MY aircraft that's right MY aircraft In a dangerous thunderstorm cell if my radar showed danger I don't give a damn if the previous 50 plance went through it, weather can change in seconds and minutes, and pose danger to aircraft especially at lower speeds and lower altitudes.
@@deltaboy767 Agreed, the pilot is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft. That being said, the ATC is responsible for getting pilots up in the air and back down again, and had to manage many more pilots while all these pilots have authority to overrule him if they deem it necessary. If the pilot thought it unsafe, he was right not to go near the thunder storm, and he should not be chewed out by ATC for flying his airplane as he deems safe. That being said, ATC has to manage a lot of airplanes safely in a small airspace with poor conditions, and if the ATC decides that the only way to properly manage this is to hold Shamrock for a while, that is his call to make. And I don't think it was necessary or professional for the pilot to go back on the offensive towards the ATC. The whole situation would not have happened if both sides weren't that busy waving their dicks around.
Air Lingus pilot refused the direction due to cell. As such he did create the situation in which he was left to circle until he could be slotted back in.
The worst thing that could happen with an air traffic controller is that she/he falls out of the chair. The worst thing that could happen with two pilots, 300 passengers, and crew members is death. Come on JFK controllers, you can do better! When I am flying myself, I never let the ATC "determine" what I am going to do in a bad situation.
*The worst thing that could happen with an air traffic controller is that she/he falls out of the chair.* No the worst thing is they make a mistake and a few hundred people fall out of the sky. Acting like ATC has no pressure on them to generate and assure safety under high volume conditions is absurd.
Viktor Sijpkens - Aviation The only time you really get to determine what you wish to do is during an emergency. I would never second guess your decision, i would assist you as much as possible. In the above situation, had it been you, i would have given you a vector to the south, so you would be, well clear of weather and any of my departures. Perhaps, down to KDOV, then back up, when all was clear of wx. Safety first.
I don't think that's true... if ATC makes a mistake hundreds of people can die...it as an immense responsibility. Just remember the crash of two planes over lake Constance a couple of years ago. And I recall the ATC who had been on duty in that shift was later killed by a father of a child who had died in the crash.
My best friend being an ATC and the stories I've heard, that's utter horseshit. The pressure they are under is immense because while a pilot is responsible for 300 people, an ATC is responsible for many times that number. They're responsible for getting all of those people around safely and in a timely manner, and one guy not doing what he's told and then trying to do it his own way is a fucking nightmare for them to deal with. He cares about his 300; they care about his 300 plus the thousands of others around him.
There were 6 other aircraft that flew the same route while he fiddle fucked in the sky stroking his dick. These planes are engineered to sustain forces you can't begin to imagine. Sorry your passengers are going to get a bumpy ride, but you're going to be safe so shut the fuck up and fly the plane.
I'm one of the > FIFTEEN MILLION people who live under the airspace for JFK/LGA/EWR/TEB. ATC's job is to protect us as well. If a pilot is so incompetent to take off when weather is inadvisable for takeoff, and then bitches about ATC vectoring him to protect the people on the ground, then it's completely on him. If he did so because of company rules, then that company should be banned for a period of six months from all PANJ facilities.
I get both sides of the argument, I really do. But I can't help but imagine Rain Man as the captain of the Aer Lingus plane. Something along the lines of: "We've got a cell. Definitely can't fly to Greki. Definitely can't fly through the cell....."
The PIC has final authority over the aircraft, not ATC. Weather/thunderstorms are a red flag and ATC has no business questioning a pilot’s request to stay away from a storm. Most airlines have a policy to stay at least 20NM from a strong radar return. The pilot’s most important radio call is to say “unable”. ATC’s response must be a solution and not punishment. Let’s remember that the ATC controller sits in a comfort room and the pilots are about to encounter a dangerous storm. That controller was too pre-occupied with airspace efficiency and disregarded safety. That is not acceptable. There should never be any peer pressure to be vectored into an area that the flight crew is not comfortable with. And also, you can’t always get a full radar picture while still on the ground so you get airborne and pick your way through it. The only mistake the shamrock guy did was not TELL the controller which heading he wanted. Such as “I need 120 for 10 miles and then 080 for 5 miles”. I have never in my career had a controller treat me like this around weather. And I’ve flown in a out of JFK hundreds of times.
This would never happen anywhere else in the world but New York. The controllers are incredibly rude, impatient, and stubbornly refuse to use standard phraseology. This will end in disaster one day.
The Aer Lingus crew would have to tell their superiors the reason for the delay (Weather and ATC). There would probably be some follow up chat between EIN's HQ and NY ATC but I doubt anyone would be fired.
Im am just starting as a student pilot so a genuine question: Comparing LHR with JFK (both pretty much same traffic level) why is it that I have barely ever seen a rude/stressed LHR controller compared to JFK where it often seems to be a standard? Looking at the SIDs/STARs I noticed that JFK doesnt really "have" any per say. 80% of it is pretty much vectors whereas LHR brings can bring you to the rwy without exterior help. why would an airport do this (vector based stars/sids)? Doesnt this drastically increase the workload for a controller? what are the pros/cons of a purely vector based sid/star? If you say "it makes traffic easier to manage" couldnt the controller just put them in a hold until the previous plane is at a safe distance and then make them continue along the SID/STAR (just like they seem to do at LHR)
TheFl4me First, I congratulate you on beginning your aviation experience, that may, eventually, turn out to be your career. I read your comment ref the comparison of KJFK and EGLL, especially the point about vectors on the STARs. I reviewed the STARs into EGLL, and they are very similar to KJFK. The ones for KJFK, mostly end at a fix, from there radar vectors to the final approach are given, snd the sequencing is accomplished. The EGLL charts, mostly tend to place the aircraft in a holding pattern, (if needed), or from that point the aircraft is radar vectored to the final approach course, again, sequencing is accomplished. The idea for SIDs and STARs is to reduce the need for vectoring to the minimum amount necessary. Unless you are executing a complete instrument approach to a landing, you can expect radar vectors to the final at most airports.
Ruben thank you for your reply, however i believe (correct me if im wrong) you may have missed 1 or 2 charts of EGLL, specifically the ones named "INITIAL APCH (FROM )" or "10-2U/V/W/X". These charts provide the route programmed into the fmc which the plane shall follow once atc has allowed them to exit the hold (at EGLL you must hold at one of the 4 major fixes until cleared to exit by atc) hence totally removing the need for vectors (obviously aircraft can still be vectored if need be). Same goes for the SIDs, at JFK there isnt a single SID that you can follow without ATC vectors whilst it is the polar opposite at LHR. In general I find it very interesting to compare the USA vs EU SID/STAR mentality where the US so heavily seems to rely on vectors.
NYC airspace is a heavily congested area where RNAV SIDs/STARs are impractical due to the tight proximity of the three airports. All three airports share essentially the same departure fixes (such as GREKI), so the only way to provide adequate spacing over each fix is by utilizing vectors. The various SIDs are used only to provide a clear path for aircraft on the initial climb to reach an altitude where vectors can then be given.
TheFl4me Look up a chart for the NY area, there are at least 5 major airports, all pumping traffic out. Mr. McCrakens' comment is very valid. Though EGLL and EGKHave much traffic, the airspace around is not that confining. I give much kudos to both the NY and EGLl controllers.
Aer Lingus pilot was frustrated and he let in get in the way of being a professional. The controller was 100% professional to the point the AL pilot came back with the "I'm tellin' my mom" comment. That was completely unnecessary and unprofessional.
No one did anything wrong really. But EIN104 should have declined takeoff due to weather. Now that he got up there he was stuck doing loops. However, the one thing that was really wrong was saying "my dad will beat your dad" or "My boss will call your boss". That just proved the pilot in EIN104 had a plan of his own all along and when he didn't get to enact that plan he had a temper tantrum. Such a man should not be in a cockpit, not even alone in a cessna.
The captain might be wrong, or might even be stupid. But in the air, it's his call if he feels there is a safety issue. The controller may be looking at weather reports on his desk, but the captain is looking at the weather right in front of his plane. Interesting video.
The captain was right to not take the vector. But he also has to understand by not taking the vector in one of the congested areas of airspace in the world, he’s opening himself up to having to hold until he can be cleared back onto his routing. Neither side is right.
Very easy for ATC to expect the captain of an ascending ,turning, low altitude, A330 to fly into a CB cell from the comfort of he's chair, in the tower, on the ground back in the airport. The Atc was out of order here asking the pilot "why not " and " "you have gotten yourself into this situation" The weather caused the situation. Aer lingus didn't want that weather either. Pilots need to trust their gut feeling and their instruments. They also need to speak up to controllers like this guy. The avianca flight 52 crash that ran out of fuel and the DHL and tupolev midair crash both but could have been avoided for these reasons. Good job Aer lingus.
![[REAL ATC] Aer Lingus HYDRAULIC LOSS and FIRE at JFK](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gjpBcGGsE6w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] Aer Lingus HYDRAULIC LOSS and FIRE at JFK](/img/tr.png)
![[FUNNY ATC] Is this guy the new Kennedy Steve? | But at Toronto/Pearson, I mean!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TmMV_R7d2eo/mqdefault.jpg)
90% of the people in this comment section know little to nothing about how ATC actually works. Pilot hero syndrome dominates their inexpert opinions. Here's what a real controller thinks:
_I know the controller in that tape, and I know the circumstances surrounding this event. I listened to the whole thing, and I totally understand what happened there. I've been in that situation many times. it is one of the reasons why ground delays due to weather are perhaps a bit longer than they need to be. We have a very dense airspace, and each airport within N90 boundaries has it's allocated airspace and departure tracks. You deviate from one, and you're going into another, which belongs to somebody else. If you can't fly the assigned route immediately after departure, then why did they accept that takeoff clearance?_
_What happened in that particular situation on that day, GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open at the time, and departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB and MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki) were being launched at the same time. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA departure airspace, not to mention that try NOT penalize all the other aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can hit becomes available._
jetcareers.com/forums/threads/shamrock-104-heavy-vs-nyc-atc.262634/page-2#post-2801516
P*Funk Excellent! Thank you for that. I have retired from ATC, but, when I first listened, I knew there had to be some other contributing factors. So now we can see why the controller became frustrated, seeing his slot go out the window.
Thank you very much for sharing that. Pinned comment earned!
P*Funk I'm neither a pilot nor a controller but I completely agree with you. In fact, I was a bit irritated by the way the pilot was "behaving"
I don't agree with you at all. As both a pilot and passenger I have been in situations where what ATC is seeing is vastly different in terms of weather than what a PIC is seeing in the left seat at altitude. I do agree sometimes pilots make decisions to take advantage of situations. However, given the insane weather NY has seen this week and the the fact that regulations state the pilot in command has final discretion to accept or decline ATC, the pilot was 100% in the right here. The pilot thought he could fly the accepted route, saw weather that would not allow that when airborne and made a decision in the interest of his passengers and aircraft...period.
In my non-expert opinion, we have a set of conflicting goals, the pilot is not comfortable flying the course given by ATC, ATC just has had no prior issues routing other aircraft that way nor reports that the weather is bad. I don't see a reason to be chippy, because that makes a crappy situation worse. If your recourse as ATC is to have him do donuts till the pilot gets dizzy then do that, I think there was probably a better way to relay the information that the course ahead was the best possible route though. At the end of the day the PIC is the one that has to deal with the consequences of ATCs choices.
The airplane version of, "Oh yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad!"
I think I interpreted the conflict differently than most of the comments. To me, the pilot took issue with ATC saying "you got yourself into this situation" and interpreted that to mean ATC felt the pilot had made a mistake of some kind, thus the battle to try and clear their names (both ATC and the pilot) began. Classic high stress communication breakdown.
Agree with this analysis ^^
@Craven Moorehead wrong, it's their plane, safety is their first priority. you trust YOUR equipment before any ATC. there was a fatal incident where 2 planes collided in air as their equipment was telling one plane to descent, while the other plane to go up... unfortunately, an ATC told the plane that had their TCAS saying descent to go up instead and the other one only listened to their TCAS and wasnt able to hear the ATC. the result of that was both planes crashed into eachother. the ASB immediately ruled that TCAS is ALWAYS priority over ATC and it should be with any equipment unless proven faulty imo.
@@APCLZ yeah, not in NY bud. You can see 3 of the busiest airports in the world from the top of your building. If you can not take thr assigned route, you stay on the ground. That is like driving a car onto the freeway blindfolded, and telling your navigator "no thanks, I am going to drive the opposite side of the highway first. Make those cars move around me"
@@ThatSB lol newark and la garbage arent even close to being the busiest in the world. Aircraft safety is more important than what city you live in...
@@abdul-hadidadkhah1459 I live and work here under the airspace in question. It isnt about living here that makes it more important. It is the air traffic. And what are you smoking? What is the busiest airspace then? You mention Newark and Laguardia and completely ignore JFK. Newark itself might not be the busiest airport but that doesn't matter because two more major airports are within miles of it. Hence why you don't get to claim "aircraft safety" when you are endangering the patterns for 3 major airports the criss cross. Not to mention the helicopter traffic and the traffic from the handful of smaller airports all within miles of Newark. Or even traffic passing headed for other major airports in the far vicinity like Boston. You dont get to play around and not follow ATC instruction when you roll through this town. If you need space to fuck around you could instantly be diverting 30 planes
If you, as PIC, feel that your assigned route is unsafe you have the responsibility to deviate.
However, especially in busy class B like New York, that may mean a hold or delay vectors afterwards until you can be resequenced, it's not carte blanche to do what you'd like.
Just have to remember that while yes as PIC you have ultimate responsibility for the safety of your aircraft and have to do what you feel is safe, but ATC does also have responsibility to keep a whole sky full of aircraft safe and are due to same courtesy while they do what they need to do in order to do that job.
@irshi Well ATC is always working to ensure all the aircraft in their care are safe and will do everything in their power to aid an aircraft in distress, but they will not jeopardise the safety of other aircraft to do so nor should you expect them to do so. My point was simply that yes at no point should a pilot accept a clearance they judge to be unsafe, but that such a decision should never be taken frivolously either nor should the pilot expect ATC to immediately be able to resolve the conflict your decision creates either.
ATC is not in the habit of making frivolous requests so by refusing you are almost certainly putting them in the position of having to issue instructions to one or more other aircraft to protect them from you while they plan around your limitations to the best of their ability to facilitate a safe outcome for all the aircraft in their care. Sure it may not be obvious to you why it is taking time to resolve the situation but ATC are professionals doing an important and stressful job to keep everyone safe and it's important to respect that, sorry but if you think they are being petty and personally taking it out on you that is almost certainly a you problem as is you taking that as an excuse to act like a prize dick the reality is that you are being an ass to someone that is simply doing their best to help you.
@@seraphina985 patience is crucial, but many people can't be calm before they go crazy. If you are asked to wait, then you have to do your part & comply
I agree with you but he does not have to have that attitude of it is not the first time for me out of New York then he should have known that it is quite cramped and the ATC has to look for the best option to slot him in again, he made him hold until he found a way, not that many options out of New York
Clearly ATC was doing a great job. The Irish pilot was just a cunt.
Considerring the stress for both I think they did well. Both recognized the constraints of their situation and acted as they thought was best. Let the tone (controller) and complaint (pilot) be the cost of their huge skills and adaptivety. They vented their emotion and so cleared their system to continue their duties. I commend them both!
Well said
Rubbish!!!
Pilot wasn't wrong in what he did but neither was the ATC. Pilot changed what the plan was after takeoff and thus suffered the repercussions from doing so. He shouldn't be complaining about being made to wait.
hallelujah....someone gets it.
Just like that. He must have thought he was somehow being punished, but the truth is he was Just being accomodated to the new situación
Precisely, he accepted the departure clearance, after briefing, knowing full well what was ahead of him. He could easily have easily delayed his departure until he felt more comfortable with the prevailing weather conditions. I chalk this up to "get-there-itis" and a total lack of regard for accepted operating procedures in some of the world's busiest airspace.
@@dennisgordon2789 & Richard Vaughn pilot said he had a weather cell showing on his on-board weather radar that he could not fly though.
prior to takeoff, his radar was incapable of showing him that cell. if the radar disagrees with what was planned and briefed, trust the radar, not the briefing, and keep the plane safe.
@ You must get triggered by the most minute characteristics of speech. There was no childish behavior. Just two professionals with differing opinions on the right course of action. This is a normal circumstance, in any line of business. You sir are the child.
At the end of the day he has to follow SOPs and not turn into bad weather on his weather radar just because ATC told him to. It’s actually recommended that if PIC feels the route is unsafe he/she should request an amended clearance.
Not speaking as an expert but imo the pilot first did the right thing when he did not comply with ATC. If he thinks its unsafe because of the wheather thats fine. But when he does that he has to know that he just cannot go back to the normal route immediatly. The ATC accepted his decision and lead him around until there was an opening. He "snapped" at the pilot when he repeadetly asked him to go to GRKI directly.
Both were right in what they did. They both checked each other. Pilot said he doesn't like the way, controller advised no issues with previous flight going this way, pilot stuck with his decision not wanting to go where controller wanted. That's acceptable. He offered a routing that was more to his liking which the controller couldn't accept for fair and square reasons. Aer Lingus didn't mourn about the hold but advised tower continuously of what they'd prefer / what would be possible in their eyes.
The controller on the other hand was due to weather really stressed leaving him - understandably - with little patience thus heating up quite quickly. I think this is why many people have an issue with this situation in the first place. if the controller remained (cooler than ice) ice cold nobody would've batted an eye (or ear)
Both did their job. Both accepted the others were doing there job.
Now, EI could've declined take-off in the first place if they knew they couldn't go their assigned rout anyways, but what the radar show from one position can be a lot different than what it shows from another position. We don't know what showed on the WxRadar. So no need to blame anybody here. It was the system at work, not more, not less.
*We all have bad days but it's not OK to reprimand a guy who is trying to keep his aircraft in a safe position*
OPINIONS WELCOME!
VASAviation - exactly. I'm a long haul truck driver and I make the final call on whether to proceed into bad weather. Not my dispatch or the broker or the customer. If I jackknife into a school bus during a snowstorm it's my ass that is in trouble, not theirs.
Agreed. Pilot rightly expressed his concern. Pilots have the rights and responsibilities for safe operation of their aircraft. ATC failed to take that into account.
I agree to not reprimand on the R/T, but he did accept a takeoff clearance knowing full well he would not be able to fly the SID. He should have mentioned this before being in the air...no way ATC can anticipate it when other aircraft have been flying the route without issue.
True, he shouldn't have snapped at the EI pilot. Those 893 jets that all made that left turn to GREKI prior to EI104 mean very little. The dynamic factor of weather is always tricky.
The way this ended was unnecessary too though, in my opinion. If I were the pilot in this scenario I would've shown some understanding for the weather chaos at an already crazy busy JFK too. After all, the controller did pretty decent after that lil altercation. I wouldn't have ended with those threaths and just let it slip.
A very interesting situation. First, I agree that the PIC has the last say on how the flight will be operated, that is a given. Secondly, I do see the frustration of the controller. The previous departures accepted their clearance, and departed via vectors to Greki, so when EIN 104, did not, it
messed him about. Viewing the Wx displayed, and knowing the pilots view, a radar vector to the south and then East, paralleling the previous (Greki) departures, until such time a climb and turn NW to Greki could be issued, might have worked.
EIN104, was not placed into a hold, he was vectored. This delay may have been while a new clearance was worked up. One last thing, the pilot could have delayed his departure, and wait out the wx while on the ground. (Could crew time,have been a factor on his decision to depart?)
To much gabbing on the radio, not good nor professionally handled by both parties.
If only Kennedy Steve had been there . . .
I miss Kennedy Steve.
EARTH TO DELTA TUG 2!!!
@@kuber5987 These operators do not have a fixed position if I am not mistaken. Even within the shift that can change.
I was thinking the same exact thing!
@@kuber5987 Steve did all posts. Give Captain Joe's interview with Kennedy Steve a watch on here, it's pretty interesting
@2:20 it is an EGT “peak” not “pick”.
Definitely feel like the pilot did the right thing to remain in safe conditions, however in a busy airspace like that I don’t understand how he can get upset with atc for that
Micah Wade If there was weather over Grecki that he didn’t like, then he shouldn’t have accepted the clearance.
The pilot doesn't know everything going on, the controller does.
@@railgap But the pilot, in this case, knew what was going on. Might be his instrument where wrong, but they seem to state it was unsafe for him to go where they wanted him to go. Not that the ATC did anything wrong either. However, the pilot is responsible for the plane.
If kenedy Steve was up there at that time he would have mocked the 104 pilot for consuming the microphone
Lol...love love love Steve.
well he ran ground control, so..
@@slappymcgillicuddy7532 that's not strictly true. He ran tower from time to time, although he had the opportunity for some of his "best work" with the more casual setting on ground control. Controllers rotate field positions, but I don't believe he ever did radar control. However, I'm not an expert.
Alot of people are missing the point.
Captain refusing to fly the weather - acceptable and within his right
Atc giving a vectoring hold until they could get the aircraft through/around/over the weather is also acceptable and within their right
The attitude and general speech delivery of the controller is the issue. Instead of trying to help the aer lingus/accommodate the weather concern it comes across as 'fuck you for not wanting to fly through it'. No need to ask why and say everyone else has gone through it, your delay and you got yourself here. Just vector the aircraft or give it a vector to a holding fix without the attitude and it would have been fine
Listening to these live ATC are usually so enjoyable...unless it's NY ATC. They're so irritating.
"without the attitude"
Someone doesn't understand how New York City works
@@B3Band If you don't think that controller didn't speak with an attitude, you're delusional. And why would you want to brag about that being normal NY attitude? Botton line is that controller has a job because the airplane is there, not the other way around. The only weather that really matters is what's outside the left front window.
Stephanie De Jesus I listen to ORD and LAX. Always skillful and professional.
Well said sir!
I think that both the pilot and ATC were at fault here. The pilot needed to accept the fact that GREKI was not possible, as the controller stated. The controller, however, shouldn't pressure a pilot to go through a cell "because every one else has"
Never do something because every one else does.
Some planes take heavy weather quit well some not.
Some pilots fly through weather and some other doesn't know to handle this weather. Add the airline standards for handling and you get multiple results. If you look at the tests for a new airplane type you get to the point where the human factor is the limit of the construction (12g+ 6g-). There isn't a real danger of dead passanger with a modern jet, but the danger of injuries are real.
US atc phraseology is the worst of all. Non standard, just rubbish
This might be true for military fighter jets, transport category aircraft have a load factor limit of 2.5g and -1g , depends a bit on the aircraft but these are the minimums which for example are the case for the A320. This is not a lot, in fact even less than the humble C172 that I fly.
Then knowing that Jgsushi, the captain shouldn't have accepted clearance. End of story. He claims it was not first time in NY, maybe as a tourist, because as a pilot he seemed very Amateur. Sorry that's all I got from that
If you can't play in NY with, don't cry in NY
fancy terminal charts, smooth animated plane visualizations, clouds done with mspaint
I’m not a pilot or ATC, but I find this kind of stuff fascinating! I love knowing how systems work- they’re so scientific and technological but intermingled so much with humans, and each have their own fallibilities- well, i have an immense appreciation for both atc and pilots. It’s because of that teamwork and capability that all my flights went terrifically (and if there were problems, it was handled so well that most of us passengers had no clue)!
It is interesting to look into how systems work. Listening to these recordings as someone who hasn't studied how air traffic control works - you start to pick up on certain patterns and the logic of it all after a while. And it makes you respect the human problem solving mind, with how they invent these protocols, how they make certain changes to them after something goes wrong. It is pretty awesome.
this one is great! I had to see the comments to see what the pros are saying about this one
Anybody noticed the black and white grid looks like a grumpy blob monster?
LOL it looks like a pissed off boxing glove
ATP, 10K hrs heavy. For petes sake, he accepted the clearance because onboard radar probably didn't show a 40k' cell on the departure path. When he got a little closer, it lit up. No, PIC didn't want to turn his airplane upside down or bend a wing. ATC is seeing NexRad on a minimum of 5min delay, and claimed nobody else is complaining. There also were no departures for the last 10 mins at least as the ground hold had been in place for a while, so that was a bit bogus (WHAT a/c had no complaints?). A WHOLE lot can happen with TRWs in 5 mins of a NexRad sweep, or 15 mins since last westbound release.
The controller's sarcastic belittling of this crew by steering him in circles off the departure end of the runway using at least 30 separate heading changes and tieing up the freq for at least 15 mins is ridiculous. He put a lot of people and a/c in a precarious position because of his temper. Everytime 104 flew across the departure path, multiple times for about 10 mins, he created dozens of TCAS blasts. And in the process he was giving the crew a sarcastic tongue lashing like they were little children. I'd bet if we looked at this a bit closer, there was probably another alternative/heading/alt other than the silly penalty circles. In any event, I'd do just as probably every other pilot would do - just as this crew did. FARs are quite clear that PIC has priority in any given safety situation. Security violations are some of the few exceptions.
I just wouldn't have wanted to be either of these guys on that day, especially the controller. *Sup should have pulled him right away*; as soon as he saw this getting out of hand. When all the stars line up along with a NY temperament, we can expect the dangers that ensued in this event. Thankfully it went without incident that day, but we're lucky.
Bring back Kennedy Steve to defuse!
I have no idea what I just watched but I think someone turned the wrong way .
The airplane took off and was told to fly straight. His equipment on board told him there was bad weather if he did that, so he asked for permission to go around it. But, in busy airspace, it wasn't possible to give him permission to go around it... so he got put into a holding pattern and didn't like it.
thank you, same here , lol
And same here. No idea what the "clouds" in the vid meant either, if clouds = bad weather then going north looked perfectly clear. But again, no idea about any of this...
NYC airspace is pretty intense, even that should be clear to the casual or novice aviator. Had a great ride outta La Guadia 2 years ago through bad weather and every time we saw a break in the clouds below us on climb there was traffic. Now imagine marshalling that lot for an 8 hour shift or whatever. Hats off the controller.
That's the reason why ATCs are only working 120 minutes tops without a half hour break, excluding emergencies.
The work is demanding insane concentration and no human can keep that up for 8 hours straight. And even if you could, you would work yourself into the grave in just a few weeks.
Great work again with the ATC tape and visuals 😃
Thank you, Ryan!
VASAviation
I will never cease being amazed on how quickly you get these videos out. Nice work on the video.
Thanks for the support!
Atc was very salty lol. The "for your delay" punishment was particularly *insert bad word* move. At the end of the day, the pilot is responsible for all souls on board and aircraft safety, some Atc are also pilots, I doubt this one was.
*The "for your delay" punishment was particularly insert bad word move.*
"For your delay" is phraseology to explain why you're instructing them to do something. The fact that he had to be delayed is because airspace in New York is so congested that in order to fit anyone into the flow you either get your slot right or you delay until there's a gap and gaps are few and far between, hence the constant turning.
ATC is also responsible for safety in the air and they're also responsible for assuring safety while also assuring an expeditious flow of traffic. The refusal to go to GREKI caused no other choice in that congested airspace because you have to keep airplanes apart too.
P*Funk thank you for your explanations! For non - experts like me it is quite hard to understand what was going on. And I can see why ATC's frustration was building up...I guess the pilot should have been more patient due to circumstances. There is only one thing I would like to point out: the comment 'you got yourself in that position ' was not necessary in my opinion and makes communication non professional. (Please correct me if this was only another standard phraseology ) . As a physician I would never tell a person with a bad lung disease who has smoked lots of cigarettes in his life 'you got yourself in this position' even if I am in a stressful situation or the patient has been rude. Maybe this is not the best comparison but it just came to my mind 😄
New York controllers are a disgrace. It will end in disaster some day.
I'm with VAS It is not right to reprimand a captain for reading his weather instruments and trying to keep his aircraft out of dangerous cells. I know New York attitude :) and there is some of it here, complete with a streetwise badda bing accent. Not a good day all around and yes I know ATC has a tough and mentally taxing job. But keep your cool and be professional.
Air Lingus boss likely told their pilot to "get over it"'. The controllers boss likely said "so what's the problem?"
ATC responded to his boss with "another prick pilot thinking he's the only man in the sky"
@@chasekruse7047 American atcare the worst for sure
I got a question, would the pilot have seen that weather cell before he accepted the take off clearance or does his equipment only show the weather cell once he is in the air?
I'm sure they saw the weather before takeoff but remember they were instructed "runway heading" after departure. That cell I tried to represent was a little off to the left of the extended centerline so they supposed they would receive vectors to avoid that cell. Then the DEP ATC instructed a left turn that got them directly into the cell and that's why they requested to keep on runway track. That's my guess.
They can see the weather on their screen but their is a delay on displaying it right after the turn for the line up.
Some pilot will ask for a delay of 10-20sec so they can make the decision to take off and if it’s ok for take off will a heading they want work with the ATC or if it’s that bad they may say we will wait and taxi off the runway.
Other problems is the weather radar does look 360* around the plane and also if the cell is bad enough it might hide other cell behind it.
if your taking off rw 22 your clearance is to maintain rwy hdg and expect radar vectoring to greeki so the pilot didnt know about the left turn before take off and even if he did , some wx radar wont show an acurate wx picture on ground .
lenny p Also wouldn't have the radar on when getting the clearance (at the gate) as it frys us ground workers
Weather cells move...they are not stationary!!!!!!!!!!!
I think they were both right.
1. Keep in mind that this is how New Yorkers talk. We are not being aggressive or insulting. But subtlety is not our strong point!
2. The captain decided after accepting a departure clearance that the route didn’t look safe.
3. The controller was nonplussed because other aircraft has flown the route without issue. The controller then put the plane into a hold while trying to determine a new route for this flight. And while juggling dozens of flights into a restricted airspace with poor weather.
Leave out the emotions - and what you might construe about New York attitudes - and you have two professionals trying to do the best they can. The parting shot from the Aer Lingus pilot was unnecessary and out of line. He avoided the cell he feared and got back on track shortly after.
Dave Glo • As a non-pilot, I tend to take your position after reading the pros and cons offered up by the aircrafts involved, the ATC, AND the comments made here from both pilots and ATC. What impresses me the most about the whole thing is that this crazy matchup is performed every day, 24/7/365, all over the world, and performed beautifully like a perfect ballet with very, very rarely a mess-up. THAT is what I think is nothing short of amazing. The average passenger has no idea what it takes when they go to the dance!
New Yorkers are indeed direct but when he starts getting overtly confrontational later in the conversation the ATC is wasting time and being unprofessional. The pilot didn't put himself in this position, it was the equipment and training that he had available to him. The ATC makes it personal at exactly the point where he accuses the pilot of creating the situation rather than the weather. He continues to escalate later, by emphasizing that the pilot is not doing what other pilots did (wholly irrelevant, they fly different planes, different training, different instruments). This is not how New Yorkers talk. Under no circumstances would I ever allow another man to talk to me like that unchecked, especially in a professional setting.
Balls the Irish guy was in the right
@@-BuddyGuy Actually the pilot did put himself "in that postion" - the "position" not being weather, but having to fly circles and wait now for another slot in some extremely complex (not just busy) airspace. Shamrock's insistence that he get to go direct to GREKI multiple times is petulant. You didn't like the weather ok fine, now wait for another turn. No one's upending 7 airports of flights (4 of which are major, 3 of which are int'l) just so Shamrock can jump back in line wherever he wants. He took a pass on his slot (his prerogative) so now he waits for another. He should wait quietly.
New Yorkers are aggressive and insulting. Nobody has to tolerate that kind of shitty attitude just because that's how they always talk in their uncivilised city.
He basically asked for a hold, was given a hold, then wanted to gripe about fuel (presumably the only reason he was so insistent on turning direct GREKI), then decided to clog the channel once he got direct. Bad look for both the pilot and the controller. I agree that it is the pilot's call but the extra banter from both was unprofessional.
Lots of really ignorant finger-wagging going on here by our usual cohort of armchair experts. The pilot can refuse to fly through wispy cirrus clouds if s/he wants to. That's not the point. The point is that when he makes such a decision, good or bad, he must accept the consequences of that decision. In this instance, that meant some vectoring around. ATC wasn't being mean, just trying to maintain required separations, keep everyone safe, and not inconvenience/delay other flights because of this pilot's decision.
My uncle about 20 years ago was flying an air ambulance plane. He was directed towards a storm cell by an ATC. He ended up having to declare an emergency. There was 250 K$ of damage to the plane, and the investigation found that had my uncle not been a former military pilot, the plane probably would have crashed. Some ATC's have God complex. I do understand they have an important job to do, but sometimes they fail to understand what is going on up in the air. They should remember that the pilots have more at stake than they do. Their asses are sitting comfortably on the grounds.
Just sounds like a frustrating day at work for both pilots and controllers. I don't think you can ever really fault the PIC for making decisions that regard to safety but both he an the controller could have worked better together to come up with the safest and most efficient plan without the bickering... That being said they're humans just like you and me so they aren't invulnerable to frustration and emotions. I'm sure if they ever had the opportunity to sit down together and go over the situation a second time they would be able to step in each others shoes and come to a respectful understanding :)
This is the nicest and most well-worded comment I have read in a while, Chad. Cheers.
Very well said. Have a good one.
Translated:
Pilot: My God, do you see that UFO ahead of us?
ATC: It hasn't hit anyone else. Shut up and fly.
Could it be that the WX displayed on ATC radar had a delayed image compared to the airplane’s real time WX Radar?
Good question.
Is that weather MS Paint?
U mad?
@@NotArcticHD i don't even know what i was talking about here...
@@OninDynamics sorry for my kind to be toxic. No worries they can yiff in hell. Good day
Respect to the Aer Lingus pilot for trusting his weather radar and putting safety first, despite that decision putting them in an annoying hold. I hate flying and I rarely fly with Aer Lingus as they're not exactly a cheap airline, but whenever I did end up flying with them, it was the most relaxed I ever felt on a plane.
It’s not an “annoying hold” the sequencing in that airspace is ridiculously complicated and approach/departure controllers there are almost always saturated. I understand why the pilot did what he did but it throws a wrench in the sequencing and it takes a lot to work an aircraft back in especially when you have 20+ flight strips to work in.
@@pjs835 Still, I feel like safety should always come first and the pilot's decision should be respected. The controller was audibly annoyed by that approach.
@@rinleezFrom what I saw, the pilot agreed to a route on departure. Then, while on air, he decided to deviate. Then asked the contoller to deviate the other flying planes so that he could get back on track. Could be that his initial deviation had to do with safety concerns, and that's understandable. But then again, why ask the ATC to deviate the others instead of waiting for a safe slot so he could get back in? Not fair for the other pilots.
@@andreea007 Besides that, several other aircraft accepted the same clearance and followed through on to their destination. The only aircraft that didn't was Aer Lingus. He got up in the air and changed his mind, which is fine if that's what he feels like he needs to do, but now ATC has to babysit him. So yeah, ATC was annoyed… especially when the pilot started asking to be prioritized for insertion into the sequence for departures. It's a classic, "you made your bed now lie in it."
@@0101-s7v!!!AMEN!!!
I think the PIC has the right and responsibility to judge the cell for himself. But after that he has to accept whatever holding pattern the ATC gives him.
2:17 I think it‘s „peak“ - not „pick“ 😏 Thanks for your great channel 😃
It definitely is :)
That's a lot of unnecessary chatter on freq atc shouldnt give be giving lessons, move on or file a report.
if i were in that cab in an airspace as crowded and hectic as nyc and some loser accepted a clearance, then in air said he didn't want to take the turn because he was scared, then i try to get him on his way meanwhile 6 other airplanes take the exact turn he wouldn't AND THEN he says that i was in the wrong? nuh uh i'm going to explain to him how it works in new york. this isn't shannon or munich
This is one of those situations where ATC and the pilot were right in their frustrations. Pilot has to follow his equipment and the controller is most likely saturated and traffic must be crazy difficult in that airspace, especially when pilots aren’t taking turns and messing up the sequencing.
Literally every plane going that direction except him 😂
Shamrock 104 Heavy didn't need to get upset. He didn't like the weather, ATC accommodated him and he decided to start a pissing match on frequency.
And ATC does have weather displayed on his screen so I can easily see why he would be confused about the refusal. If he is not seeing the cell I wonder exactly what Shamrock was using. They clearly had two different views of the weather.
I dont know exactly where the Kennedy weather radar is located (or if they just use Nexrad), but heavy cells (like the one north of the airfield) can mask/obscure/block other cells. The radar on the aircraft on the other hand will always see what's directly in front of the plane, so to the pilot the cells can indeed look more severe than to the ATC.
@@stephanweinberger cool, but he's the one who chose not to go through it and he was held for it so as not to hold up every other departure who's going right through the weather he's so scared of, so he has zero right to be upset about it.
This is a shit situation and both of them acted like children. ATC was way out of line to critique a pilot for doing what he feels is safe (especially when NEXRAD images are delayed and a/c have live radar). But the pilot didn’t seem to understand that when you deviate from your cleared flight plan, especially in congested airspace, you do not have priority over aircraft on their assigned departure. You’re gonna have to hold. Now I’m not sure if there’s not a waypoint he could’ve held at or if the controller was just being a dick and giving him vectors. Either way, completely inappropriate use of ATC comms. Either both of them need to be reprimanded, or just get over it.
I'm not a pilot, but I've read most of the comments here. Two questions: Does ATC equipment show a wider look at the weather than that on an aircraft? Couldn't ATC radar have seen weather the Shamrock pilot's didn't?
Im kinda curious, why didnt the Aer Lingus guy just take Greki like the other flights if they didnt have issues?
ATC got that Jersey attitude..
You need that survive as a JFK ATC
I'm also with Shamrock on this one but if the controller said other aircraft took a left turn, then were they all taking a risk that the Aer Lingus pilot wasn't risking to do?
@@malahammer Actual changes in the weather situation is just one of the factors at play others include aircraft limitations, company limitations (These can be stricter though not looser than the type certificate allows), radar equipment variation (Two radars can "see" the same sky differently and then you have the specifics of how the software interprets that raw radar input which will also vary).
AER LINGUS wants to head out quick, but, other aircrafts from the other airport nearby was coming as well. Nothing that AER LINGUS can do to make it faster. I guess the pilot wants to jeapardize the risk of safety in the name of quickness.
the ATC claim that he has "categories" of weather that the pilot should somehow use to fly the aircraft is BS. ATC just need to do there job.. i could tell in his voice he was annoyed that 104 "did not" do what he wanted... at no point did he want to accept he "could not " do what he wanted. Also claiming the pilot accepted clearance based on weather he could see out the window is also BS. tough job being a controller, even tougher if you think you are always right.. As far as i could tell the pilot just flew the aircraft, tried to get clearance direct to greki but was refused. i did not detect any anymosity from him. all the bad vibes here are coming from the controller.. the problem i have with teh atc is the attitude towards the pilot, asking why he did not comply and attempting to make him feel bad for not being able to make the turn? really? none of the ATC business "why" he cant comply! the pilot does not need a good reason, he is flying! but the pilot told him why anyway... ATC is in a room on the ground! so what you gonna do , this ATC nearly said that he does not believe the pilot! get over yourself.. it says in the description that 90% of people dont know little or nothing about ATC.. well the description is in fact wrong because 104 did not turn the wrong way ! he stayed on heading due to bad weather. if you think that is wrong then you need to retrain... if you are a controller you know that you are not PIC. you are there as guidance which can or cannot be accepted by PIC . PIC must not follow unsafe ATC instructions ... its the LAW.. can you imagine the lawsuit if he blindly accepted an instruction from ATC to fly into bad weather.. ? The PIC is responsible ATC is advisable.. thats the heirachy..
Completely with the PIC here based on the facts as I know them, but the facts that I don't know could change that.
ATC snapped at the pilot pretty much immediately and didn't let it go. If, and it's a big if, the pilot took a clearance with the intention on the ground to use pilot's authority once airborne to get a route that would never in a million years have been authorised on the ground, then yes, the exchange is fully justified - the snappy tone from ATC can be explained by the fact that this is New York and putting that aside ATC would have a right to chastise the pilot.
But on balance the more likely scenario is that the pilot took the clearance in good faith with different expectations on how he would be routed, in which case ATC is entirely out of line.
*the pilot took the clearance in good faith with different expectations on how he would be routed*
Why would that excuse him? New york airspace is notoriously unforgiving with respect to metering the flow during busy hours.
Belief, prior to takeoff, that he would continue runway heading for the period he asked for in the exchange beginning 3:34 before starting to be routed in the direction of his destination, rather than being given a turn into what he considered to be unacceptable weather would excuse him.
Knowledge, prior to takeoff, that he would be expected to take a route through what he considered unacceptable weather, would completely change most people's interpretation of this exchange.
Despite other aircraft accepting ATC orders I don't think they were probably flying a long distance "Heavy" which Air Lingus was. Maybe the Air Lingus had better/more modern radar than the US planes but all aircraft are not the same. The Captain has the ultimate responsibility for his flight not someone sitting in ATC possibly with outdated equipment. Kennedy Steve mentioned once about their equipment being outdated!
*Knowledge, prior to takeoff, that he would be expected to take a route through what he considered unacceptable weather, would completely change most people's interpretation of this exchange.*
This assumes the pilot is an idiot who is requesting to be allowed to fly into a brick wall because he doesn't like the look of the street he's being told to turn down. You can say the street is unsafe but he's still flying into a brick wall on runway heading and that is known to the pilot regardless of what the weather is like because its New York. The traffic patterns are like brick walls, they're obvious and visible and reliable. The weather is mercurial, but the edifice of New York airspace is like clockwork a mess you can't expect much lee way to navigate but through the correct flow and if you don't want to follow the flow then you get delayed as it occurred.
so what happens when the bosses are contacted
They have a sexy party.
dave just reports are made, tapes will be pulled for a superior to listen to then any action will be taken against the controller; more than likely a 'just keep your cool' chat, or further action if there's multiple reports against said controller
Thanks for answering appreciate it
Also the Aer Lingus crew will have to report the reason for the delay on arrival - "Weather and Grumpy ATC" - European airlines will almost always back up their crew's decision in this situation.
In situations like this I always wonder if there is a way for us to find out what happened after the "bosses" had their discussions.
One day, the habit of some pilots having the mic placed directly in front of their mouth, instead of off axis, which can cause totally unnecessary plosive distortion, will be part of a NTSB inquiry!
It sounded like it wasn't in front of his mouth, but rather half a foot down his esophagus.
It's a habit private pilots pick up when using low gain microphones in a noisy GA plane. Doesn't translate well to the higher gain of an airline mic and earpiece.
I'm with the Shamrock pilot here - he is the aircraft commander and what he says goes
Trek001 exactly. He's the captain not the ATC
Everybody except him flew that route but nobody reported any bad weather or requested any deviation, this pilot acts like he's the only pilot over the new york airspace and when he didn't get the attention he wants, he's complaining about it.
So what...? If that pilot wanted to sing a song by Justin Timberlake because he thought it was best and safe for his flight, then he'd be able to do it.
Just because this was the only guy asking to go around, doesn't mean ATC should jump on his ass
Trek001 ATC is not jumping on his ass because he wanted a hold, he did that cause the pilot says the route that everyone used except him is dangerous.
Hüseyin ÖZDEMİR just because someone flew through 5 minutes ago doesn't mean it's going to be clear now.
The tense exchange could have been avoided if the controller didn't take a confrontational and accusatory tone.
Maybe he could have massaged their feet as well
@@Mike-bh7sh Your response lacks a logical argument against my original post.
@JakeC-xx8zq They both had the same attitude.
ATC got over irritated that the pilot decided to step out of line (was the only one to do so) because they felt the weather wasn't good enough.
The pilot was acting impatient and irritated to get back in line - though you can't just do that.
I don't even understand the pilot appearing to think he would fly towards LaGuardia.
In the end the pilot is responsible for his plane's safety so it does ATC no good to get irritated... AND, ATC is responsible for the safety of all the planes in their sector - so it does the pilot no good to get irritated at them.
Will say the pilot's "my boss will call your boss" was childish. They both lost control of their emotions... let it go. Don't make a case out of it.
My previous comment was me just being snarky - no offense
Holy shit they fight it out on the channel?
The ATC sounded petty and like he wanted to punish the pilot. The ATC should just have been friendlier. I think both were in the right, but in the end of the day, the pilot has to make the call, and ATC shouldn’t get angry about it. It’s unprofessional. That’s my personal opinion. Tone of voice makes a big difference.
Are we just ignoring the whistling @ 1:12?
Edit: 1:11 to 1:12
Tune is The Entertainer (1902)
no - just ignoring you
tiarnan but you replied
But if he felt the departure path wasn't safe why takeoff? I've never accepted a departure clearance if there is weather in the path. This shows a small lack of foresight in my opinion. New York airspace is incredibly complex and you can't just ask for vectors and get whatever you want. The air traffic controller gave him the hold and waited for both the cell to displace and a gap in departures.
The pilot is right to decide not to go into a cell and he did a great job in doing so. He felt it was unsafe while the other pilots felt it was. Now the ATC has to adapt and the only way out was via GREKI and a gap in departures so he held him until the cell cleared. This isn't a punitive action by the controller.
The problem is when the attitude comes in by both the pilot and controller. It's a professional disagreement with a less that ideal solution. If stress and tension weren't so high and they had just calmly exchanged problems and solutions, everyone would be praising this as a great example of ATC and Pilot interaction.
The airline was named after Connie Lingus.
Well played. You're speaking of the area near the landing strip I assume. Their call sign should be Gee Spot
And this is how pilots avoid unsafe situations. Maybe the we're overly cautious, but it takes a certain type of person to fight that.
Totally agree
He was allowed to avoid the unsafe weather (as he saw it). Then he got all pissy 'cause he had to wait.
@@merkin22 and the ATC got snarky just because that pilot wasn't blindly following the other sheep and dared to act on what he was shown by his equipment (which he classified as unsafe for the crew/passengers/aircraft). Who needs a controller berating you to having put yourself in the situation you're in?
Lexor888 he’s departing jfk and accepted the departure clearance with the weather right in front of him. The controllers in New York have one of the most stressful jobs. The controllers tone wasn’t great but nothing he said was wrong. Gotta love a cautious pilot but both sides could’ve learned and improved from this it was no way one sided
This one few minutes in time, makes me glad I never trained for ATC career.
Way too much to handle for me.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get KJFK as your very first assignment anyway
Addictive_LiquoriCe
Yes, I realize that.
And only if I made the grade at all. 🤷🏼♂️
@@asteverino8569
I was told to apply for training. Never did. This job would kill me or someone else or both at the same time. I'm hearing our local airport will be using CAMERAS and have one central TWR for multiple airports.
Now that's high-level bullshit for sure.
Any ideas why the Shamrock COM system sounds so garbled. He's barely understandable. His headsets and mic must be junk is all I can figure. Everyone else on frequency is 5X5.
Interesting that the pilot for Aer Lingus voice was disguised in this recording after the original played that didn't.
The same ATC that always gets pilots mad all the time 😂
atc is not a person you know? :')
@@bechirbenothman5453 context - * exists *
@@bechirbenothman5453 An Air Traffic Controller is a not a person?
@@michaelmesicek2235 not a single person with initials A.T.C xD xD... u didn't get the joke, did you?
"It's not my first day in New York, it's not my first day in an aircraft" Ouch
But it could end up his last...
That was another nasty little radio exchange. It was a tense situation with high stakes but yowch.
I agree 100% with the Shamrock Pilot, as an former Airline Pilot I WOULD not put MY aircraft that's right MY aircraft In a dangerous thunderstorm cell if my radar showed danger I don't give a damn if the previous 50 plance went through it, weather can change in seconds and minutes, and pose danger to aircraft especially at lower speeds and lower altitudes.
@@deltaboy767 no further word, is the way it is.
@@deltaboy767 Agreed, the pilot is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft. That being said, the ATC is responsible for getting pilots up in the air and back down again, and had to manage many more pilots while all these pilots have authority to overrule him if they deem it necessary.
If the pilot thought it unsafe, he was right not to go near the thunder storm, and he should not be chewed out by ATC for flying his airplane as he deems safe. That being said, ATC has to manage a lot of airplanes safely in a small airspace with poor conditions, and if the ATC decides that the only way to properly manage this is to hold Shamrock for a while, that is his call to make. And I don't think it was necessary or professional for the pilot to go back on the offensive towards the ATC. The whole situation would not have happened if both sides weren't that busy waving their dicks around.
Air Lingus pilot refused the direction due to cell. As such he did create the situation in which he was left to circle until he could be slotted back in.
The worst thing that could happen with an air traffic controller is that she/he falls out of the chair. The worst thing that could happen with two pilots, 300 passengers, and crew members is death. Come on JFK controllers, you can do better!
When I am flying myself, I never let the ATC "determine" what I am going to do in a bad situation.
*The worst thing that could happen with an air traffic controller is that she/he falls out of the chair.*
No the worst thing is they make a mistake and a few hundred people fall out of the sky. Acting like ATC has no pressure on them to generate and assure safety under high volume conditions is absurd.
Viktor Sijpkens - Aviation The only time you really get to determine what you wish to do is during an emergency. I would never second guess your decision, i would assist you as much as possible. In the above situation, had it been you, i would have given you a vector to the south, so you would be, well clear of weather and any of my departures. Perhaps, down to KDOV, then back up, when all was clear of wx. Safety first.
I don't think that's true... if ATC makes a mistake hundreds of people can die...it as an immense responsibility. Just remember the crash of two planes over lake Constance a couple of years ago. And I recall the ATC who had been on duty in that shift was later killed by a father of a child who had died in the crash.
My best friend being an ATC and the stories I've heard, that's utter horseshit. The pressure they are under is immense because while a pilot is responsible for 300 people, an ATC is responsible for many times that number. They're responsible for getting all of those people around safely and in a timely manner, and one guy not doing what he's told and then trying to do it his own way is a fucking nightmare for them to deal with. He cares about his 300; they care about his 300 plus the thousands of others around him.
There were 6 other aircraft that flew the same route while he fiddle fucked in the sky stroking his dick. These planes are engineered to sustain forces you can't begin to imagine. Sorry your passengers are going to get a bumpy ride, but you're going to be safe so shut the fuck up and fly the plane.
I think some people genuinely think the mic goes inside of their mouth.
Well done aer lingus. Fly the plane.
Malachy Diamond And he did, 2, 360s and a 270, lots of fuel wasted at low level.
They were Cunni lingus on this day.
I'm one of the > FIFTEEN MILLION people who live under the airspace for JFK/LGA/EWR/TEB. ATC's job is to protect us as well. If a pilot is so incompetent to take off when weather is inadvisable for takeoff, and then bitches about ATC vectoring him to protect the people on the ground, then it's completely on him. If he did so because of company rules, then that company should be banned for a period of six months from all PANJ facilities.
I get both sides of the argument, I really do. But I can't help but imagine Rain Man as the captain of the Aer Lingus plane. Something along the lines of:
"We've got a cell. Definitely can't fly to Greki. Definitely can't fly through the cell....."
Shamrock is very hard to understand. I’d hope they taught pilots that you’re not supposed to put the mic in your mouth while you’re trying to speak.
what is a Greki?
The PIC has final authority over the aircraft, not ATC. Weather/thunderstorms are a red flag and ATC has no business questioning a pilot’s request to stay away from a storm. Most airlines have a policy to stay at least 20NM from a strong radar return.
The pilot’s most important radio call is to say “unable”. ATC’s response must be a solution and not punishment.
Let’s remember that the ATC controller sits in a comfort room and the pilots are about to encounter a dangerous storm.
That controller was too pre-occupied with airspace efficiency and disregarded safety. That is not acceptable.
There should never be any peer pressure to be vectored into an area that the flight crew is not comfortable with.
And also, you can’t always get a full radar picture while still on the ground so you get airborne and pick your way through it.
The only mistake the shamrock guy did was not TELL the controller which heading he wanted. Such as “I need 120 for 10 miles and then 080 for 5 miles”.
I have never in my career had a controller treat me like this around weather. And I’ve flown in a out of JFK hundreds of times.
This would never happen anywhere else in the world but New York. The controllers are incredibly rude, impatient, and stubbornly refuse to use standard phraseology. This will end in disaster one day.
At 2:20 it's "momentary EGT peak", not pick.
I didn't understand why they did not follow the Route?
Bad weather.
Do you write over a vector image of the airport or do you download it from somewhere?
What happened when the boss called the boss?
Same thing I wanna know
I think both were right up until the PIC decided to be a DIC* and report the controller for doing his job.
The Aer Lingus crew would have to tell their superiors the reason for the delay (Weather and ATC). There would probably be some follow up chat between EIN's HQ and NY ATC but I doubt anyone would be fired.
Pilots have final say concerning aircraft safety. Period.
then dont accept the clearance to takeoff, knowing where youre heading. sheesh.
STFU, Howard!
@@redraider2l7 weather changes in minutes dont you know that? PIC has the final say period.
@@masflow09 bless your heart.
@@redraider2l7 same
Will you have the single prop plane in Chicago’s atc soon?
Im am just starting as a student pilot so a genuine question:
Comparing LHR with JFK (both pretty much same traffic level) why is it that I have barely ever seen a rude/stressed LHR controller compared to JFK where it often seems to be a standard?
Looking at the SIDs/STARs I noticed that JFK doesnt really "have" any per say. 80% of it is pretty much vectors whereas LHR brings can bring you to the rwy without exterior help.
why would an airport do this (vector based stars/sids)?
Doesnt this drastically increase the workload for a controller?
what are the pros/cons of a purely vector based sid/star?
If you say "it makes traffic easier to manage" couldnt the controller just put them in a hold until the previous plane is at a safe distance and then make them continue along the SID/STAR (just like they seem to do at LHR)
TheFl4me First, I congratulate you on beginning your aviation experience, that may, eventually, turn out to be your career. I read your comment ref the comparison of KJFK and EGLL, especially the point about vectors on the STARs. I reviewed the STARs into EGLL, and they are very similar to KJFK. The ones for KJFK, mostly end at a fix, from there radar vectors to the final approach are given, snd the sequencing is accomplished. The EGLL charts, mostly tend to place the aircraft in a holding pattern, (if needed), or from that point the aircraft is radar vectored to the final approach course, again, sequencing is accomplished. The idea for SIDs and STARs is to reduce the need for vectoring to the minimum amount necessary. Unless you are executing a complete instrument approach to a landing, you can expect radar vectors to the final at most airports.
Ruben thank you for your reply, however i believe (correct me if im wrong) you may have missed 1 or 2 charts of EGLL, specifically the ones named "INITIAL APCH (FROM )" or "10-2U/V/W/X".
These charts provide the route programmed into the fmc which the plane shall follow once atc has allowed them to exit the hold (at EGLL you must hold at one of the 4 major fixes until cleared to exit by atc) hence totally removing the need for vectors (obviously aircraft can still be vectored if need be).
Same goes for the SIDs, at JFK there isnt a single SID that you can follow without ATC vectors whilst it is the polar opposite at LHR.
In general I find it very interesting to compare the USA vs EU SID/STAR mentality where the US so heavily seems to rely on vectors.
NYC airspace is a heavily congested area where RNAV SIDs/STARs are impractical due to the tight proximity of the three airports. All three airports share essentially the same departure fixes (such as GREKI), so the only way to provide adequate spacing over each fix is by utilizing vectors. The various SIDs are used only to provide a clear path for aircraft on the initial climb to reach an altitude where vectors can then be given.
TheFl4me Look up a chart for the NY area, there are at least 5 major airports, all pumping traffic out. Mr. McCrakens' comment is very valid. Though EGLL and EGKHave much traffic, the airspace around is not that confining. I give much kudos to both the NY and EGLl controllers.
Ever met a New Yorker?
Aer Lingus pilot was frustrated and he let in get in the way of being a professional. The controller was 100% professional to the point the AL pilot came back with the "I'm tellin' my mom" comment. That was completely unnecessary and unprofessional.
The first subtitle should say, "Shamrock 104 heavy, any sign of GREKI opening up?"
I at least like how they acted professional about it and didn't start making unnecessary chatter.
Two words: Light chop.
No one did anything wrong really. But EIN104 should have declined takeoff due to weather. Now that he got up there he was stuck doing loops.
However, the one thing that was really wrong was saying "my dad will beat your dad" or "My boss will call your boss". That just proved the pilot in EIN104 had a plan of his own all along and when he didn't get to enact that plan he had a temper tantrum.
Such a man should not be in a cockpit, not even alone in a cessna.
no one did nothing but you blaming the pilots lol you not going to talk about the atc attitude?
The captain might be wrong, or might even be stupid. But in the air, it's his call if he feels there is a safety issue. The controller may be looking at weather reports on his desk, but the captain is looking at the weather right in front of his plane. Interesting video.
The captain was right to not take the vector. But he also has to understand by not taking the vector in one of the congested areas of airspace in the world, he’s opening himself up to having to hold until he can be cleared back onto his routing. Neither side is right.
Kennedy’s always mad
Like they have other things going on.
sa there always angry being disrespectful
Welcome to Noo Yoik folks....
You wanna cuppa koawfee huh ?
Why was Runway heading not avaiable?
Extremely complex airspace with arrivals/departures out of EWR, JFK, LGA, TEB etc. Not all traffic is shown on this radar overlay.
Two professionals with conflicting safety concerns - possibly not clearly communicated to each other.
Very easy for ATC to expect the captain of an ascending ,turning, low altitude, A330 to fly into a CB cell from the comfort of he's chair, in the tower, on the ground back in the airport.
The Atc was out of order here asking the pilot "why not " and " "you have gotten yourself into this situation"
The weather caused the situation. Aer lingus didn't want that weather either.
Pilots need to trust their gut feeling and their instruments. They also need to speak up to controllers like this guy.
The avianca flight 52 crash that ran out of fuel and the DHL and tupolev midair crash both but could have been avoided for these reasons.
Good job Aer lingus.
have you noticed in these crash's the faa always covers atc's ass?
Does Aer Lingus assume only arrogants? It is the second one after the "it s not my first time I NY". Or is he the same?
Anyone know what happened to that emirates flight 388 who didnt follow instructions and turned into a no fly zone over Yangon?
Cause ATC a headache and you'll go in circles.
Yep, could have circled him until he had to land.