*Listening to this was both funny and frustrating!!* Why this confusion for a flight which is intended to go directly to the east and cross the pond towards Europe?
VASAviation - probably because KSEA causes tons of ground stops and other massive congestion delays for KBFI due to the huge traffic volumes and geographic overlap between the two.
Random Acts of Video I think the entire point is that they deliberately filed it wrong to try and make an end run around the regulations. And that made life hell for the guy trying to manage the weird airspace at BFI.
UK PPL here. That pilot should have picked up his route clearance before departure. Sounds like he was trying to shortcut the system by departing VFR in an aircraft unsuited to the traffic conditions. My guess is he was being pressured into cutting corners by a spoilt rich kid in the back, but at the end of the day it’s the captain’s responsibility. He caused unnecessary chaos for others, and demonstrated unprofessional behaviour and poor airmanship. A disgrace to the usually high professional standards of UK and EU aircrew.
I had always wondered how SeaTac and BFI managed to avoid traffic conflicts when their runways are almost parallel and running into each other. Turns out, they don't 🤷🏼♀️
Eh, if the passengers were pressuring the pilots to take off and shortcut the process in the first place, they deserve what they got. Besides, "max bank" in a business jet is _not_ a sporty or aerobatic maneuver. The folks in back might have been spilling their drinks but its not like they were getting tossed around. :-P
@@bgribbz VistaJet is the kind of company that will get you a transatlantic flight on a private jet with less than a days notice. The cheque writers are the passengers. These are the kind of people who think their time is too valuable and they find themselves too important to have to wait on such things as "picking up IFR clearance on the ground". From their own website "...146,000 flights, 367,000 passengers ..." or about 2.5 passengers on the average flight. I can't be bothered to look up how many passengers KLM, BA, Emirates or Quantas haul around the place, but I doubt that they'll average about 2.5 passengers per flight.
@Zaphod Whiskers Ummm earth, naturally. No the passengers DO NOT write the checks, they simply pay a company, and said company writes the pilots checks... you seem a little butthurt for some reason....are you a pilot that got fired by a check writing passenger or something?
Several mistakes: 1) ground didn't relay the plan to tower. 2) pilots didn't verify plan with tower. 3) pilots should've questioned the fact that they were given right closed traffic rather than a VFR departure on course. 4) pilots completely hosed the right traffic instruction. They were told to turn right based and botched it (overlying the final, violating the SEA bravo interfered with the SEA south departures). What a mess, all of it avoidable. Very interesting video....could make for excellent training. So many assumptions on top of assumptions, and missed clues.
Tower appeared aware of the plan to take off VFR and remain in the traffic pattern. It is so weird for that kind of plane that they asked to confirm and the pilot verbally confirmed every aspect of that plan. The pilot did not say he planned to zip around in the pattern of highly congested airspace in a G650 or whatever at 1500 feet while trying to pick up his transoceanic clearance. If he had told that to tower, they would have flat out denied him. It was an insane plan on the part of the pilot.
I fly with an Aerial survey company, as a LEO not a pilot. We fly around Washington DC every year taking updated photos for maps. One year we flew into restricted airspace (P-56) and got the dreaded, "Be prepared to copy FAA control number." Pilot I was flying with had Interviews coming up for a Commercial airline and was nervous as could be. We landed and called, luckily it was just a learning moment and he didn't get anything put on his record. The FAA people we spoke to were pretty decent about the whole thing. We were 8000 AGL and had been in constant communication with ATC so no flight back with fighter jets or anything.
"868 requesting departure the the Northeast" might have saved a lot of trouble. Tower doesn't care what happens after you leave, so just fly VFR for a couple minutes to get away from the obvious misunderstanding going on here.
Wasn’t there a clue in the transmissions between ATC and the pilot : “pattern altitude and downwind leg”. Surely that would have indicated someone staying in the circuit.
@@JH-in5oq because they were trying to pull a fast one and file an airborne flight plan and depart from a vfr flight but they had not reckoned on the amount of traffic inbound to more than one airport n their immediate vicinity nor had they reckoned on the controller not giving them an immediate IFR handover as the controller was trying to keep everyone alive as pop up traffic just kept arriving after pop up traffic ( well pop up with regards to the vista jet crew) and all the crew would have liked to do was blast off into the night talking to the IFR controller but the local ATC had given them a southerly escape route with a nice IFR handover but they still didn't realise that close proximity shit was happening all around them and the local ATC controller was trying to keep everyone alive until such times as they were clear to the south out of the way of the impending traffic. The comment here about can ATC handle traffic into both airports is "Yes" but not with impromptu traffic flying the circuit but not flying the circuit under vfr requiring IFR departures and not actually landing or going around.......?! Somebody somewhere didn't get an IFR slot departure when still on the ground (probably due to the mass of traffic inbound) so the crew thought let's go into the circuit vfr and then switch to IFR and fly away. Had there been no traffic inbound, at their height, and something like 2 am local then maybe that would have worked well. But it wasn't and it didn't. Messy and embarrassing. They might, might have tried a vfr flight to Greece at a low altitude, as in low like 1,000 ft and then headed off to Greece and then when out of the traffic zone (and the traffic) then pick it up with the IFR boys and get a clearance and a level. Personally I would have let them blast off to an oceanic area under vfr and let them file an airborne flight plan but I am not a controller and he was trying to keep them alive and separated from the traffic there were in. It's a lodda fun. The tiny mistake was to vouch to stay in the circuit, I suppose they could not go off into the night under VFR as there maybe no VFR at night!!
So I'm gathering from everyone else's comments, but tell me... is this what happened? 1 - Pilots had IFR but refiled because their initial runway was no-go due to performance issues 2 - new IFR sat a little too long with ground and didn't make it to the tower in time 3 - pilots took off VFR assuming the IFR was in the tower and shortly to be approved 4 - tower tried to keep them in VFR traffic but the plane was unable due to configuration 5 - pilots assumed tower knew what they wanted and tower assumed pilots were wanting something else 6 - nobody had a good day, but paperwork was minimal
Nailed it. I knew there was more to the story because as a pilot flying a 737, he had a lot of experience flying out of airports across the world. He isn't going to wake up one day and say "F*ck it. Let's make up our own rules today." Plus, there had to be a reason for the Tower to think he was trying to land right after take off. What a complete cluster.
This whole thing was caused by ground not telling tower or departure that this was an IFR flight. The runway change was for safety. The pilot however could have made things easier by explaining he had IFR clearance and had no intention to fly patterns! Sometimes standard ATC doesn't cover what was obviously a misunderstanding. The controller might have wondered why a fully loaded Corporate jet would want to do pattern practice! The clue was in the pilot repeatedly telling the controller he was fully fuelled and could not do tight turns. But equally all the pilot needed to have said was that he correctly filed an IFR plan and at the very least needed vectors out of the area!
I am not sure the Vistajet pilots had IFR clearence, because they refused their original IFR clearence, and never received an amended IFR clerence for runway 32L (as it was restricted for self-separating VFR traffic). Ground/Delivery is not authorized to negotiate changes in flight plans on behalf of the tower or departure ATC units, so expecting Ground to tell Tower what to do is a misunderstanding how ATC works. Ground/Delivery cannot re-plan or override the clearences/restrictions from departure/approach/area control by itself.
How is this ATC's fault? He squawked VFR and took off. He was trying to jump the line to get his IFR clearance by doing in mid-air. In busy airspace thats not always guaranteed. I've heard people doing this when I flew KLAX a lot and people would be denied their IFR its just too busy for clearance to be doing that.
The Vistajet had the stupid idea of taking off VFR, picking up his IFR clearance in route, and then flying IFR. Had he picked up his IFR clearance before taxiing, that never would have happened. But he’s super special, so he can do his own thing and forget everyone else!
Lot of questions here about how and why, so here is my take as a 30 year veteran air traffic controller in Chicago. Pilot files a flight plan for Athens, and then calls for clearance. ATC gives ground delay for possibly hundreds of different reasons. Pilot, or pax don’t like the delay so pilot decides to get around it by departing VFR under the mistaken idea that he will be given IFR clearance once airborne. In this case probably tried to use the rouse that they were staying in the pattern, this may have been because the entire airport was stopped for all outgoing traffic, or conditions outside the immediate area were IFR. ATC is not required to issue IFR flight plan to airborne VFR flights, and it’s highly unlikely tower guy could do it anyway. If VFR aircraft encounters IFR conditions a radar facility can provide IFR control but are in no way required to give a requested IFR route or destination and would not do so if they couldn’t for any reason. I have had pilots do this very thing in the center environment. Ground stopped to XYZ airport so pilot departs VFR to avoid ground stop then tries to activate flight plan. This could have, and should have gone like this Pilot: we can’t land for 5 hours Controller: roger, you are cleared to BFI via direct “point” intersection, “point 3 arrival”. Climb and maintain 7k hold at “point” as published expect further clearance in 5 hours. Pilot can’t do anything but cancel IFR request or request a destination that he can be cleared to.
As a private pilot, I don't understand why doing this in a center environment would be a problem. I always pick up my ifr clearances in the air unless a vfr departure is unsafe, and I've heard that controllers actually prefer it that way as long as you are able to continue VFR as until they can work you into the flow. Obviously what this guy did is very different. I'd never try to cut a line by circling the airport "vfr" to force out a clearance. I'm talking about a normal VFR see-and-avoid departure, upgraded to IFR once safely away from the congested airport environment.
Its notable that the initial takeoff is for runway 32L, and after that all traffic seems to be routing in on southbound runways. BFI and SEATAC are so close together that BFI runway direction always follows SEATAC - regardless of winds at BFI. My hunch is that SEATAC was in the process of switching runway directions and VistaJet was told to turn around and taxi all the way to the other end of the airport (a 10,000' runway). That would likely have taken 10-15 minutes and might have resulted in a few planes slotting in ahead of them, so they requested a pattern flight in an attempt to get off the ground before the runway direction was flipped. Supporting evidence: Check out Cessna 804 (from about 1:30 to 2:45 in the video). He comes in like he's going to make right traffic for 32R, but gets flipped around to an abbreviated left pattern for 14L. I've had that happen to me when I was getting my PPL at BFI. :-)
As I understand it, VistaJet's normal business model charges for time flown, so those five hours would have been charged to what Kennedy Steve liked to call the 1% sitting behind the flight deck.
This interaction should be used as an example of how a Captain, First Officer or GA pilot should always maintain there composure when speaking to ATC. Regardless of the situation, An ATC’s job is to provide a safe, orderly flow of traffic. ATC controllers are human, so frustration and anxiety can creep into their brain as well. The pilot handled the complete interaction perfectly by not taking anything personal. Well done, sir!
What are you talking about? The pilot totally mislead the controller and asked for pattern work but only told him he wanted his cross oceanic clearance once he was about to bust airspace. Totally failed to let him know that he wouldn't be able to land at all let alone beat up the pattern. Literally tied the controllers hands. Sure this dude was cool as a cucumber but he totally boned the controller in the process.
@@mikey554 Yep. There is another aviation blog which posted this flight and explained what happened. A private jet trying to depart SEATAK for an overseas flight might have to wait for an hour or more to receive an IFR clearance. So the pilot pulled a fast one: Got VFR clearance instead, and by using the term "downwind leg" clearly suggested to the ATC that he was intending to land. Once in the air, he made his intentions more clear by requesting an inflight IFR, which is not normally done, according to the other aviation blog. When the ATC told him to land, he then discloses that he's overweight (due to the fuel needed to fly to Athens, presumably). So the ATC is stuck. Not really very professional.
I am a corporate pilot: what this pilot did is completely irresponsible. As the PIC it is your responsibility to call in your flight plan with enough time to get a clearance. I typically file it over breakfast or in a taxi; by the time I’m in the jet 1 hour later it’s ready. For lack of 2-5 minutes of work, this guy endangered hundreds of lives.
Copied an explanation from elsewhere: "The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed."
So here are some explanations to understand who did what and why : -TWR asks the aircraft to squawk VFR and to confirm their intentions : right traffic pattern The crew confirmed and never questioned. TWR kept on giving pattern instructions, the crew still don't question anything. -The crew did not pick up their IFR clearance on the ground (which is standard worldwide, especially if your IFR Flight Plan starts at your departure airport). -To my understanding, BFI is a VFR TWR. VFR Towers are not allowed to give radar vectors. They can give a direction to fly (e.g., eastbound turn), a suggested heading (e.g., fly suggested VFR hdg of 350) but no vector unlike the approach. -When an IFR traffic is ready to depart AFTER it has receiced its IFR departure clearance, on a VFR Towered airport, both the approach and the tower need to coordinate. The IFR aircraft is sometimes held on the ground, waiting for the approach to "release" the aircraft ("hold for release" procedure). So here is the situation for this video : there is an aircraft, which is intending to fly IFR, which hasn't received its IFR departure clearance, and which is already airborne. Let's imagine the level of coordination between the tower and the approach now required...
Yea very well explained btw! The only time you'd pick up clearence in the air In Australia is departing out of class G airports such as avalon, essedon, moorabin etc if tower is not currently online but it'd be something like this "Melbourne approach good afternoon VHTEA is an IFR cirrus sr22 taxies moorabin for bendigo 2 pob" "TEA Melb apch sqwack 3604 no reported ifr traffic report ready at the holding point" *some times passes* "TEA ready at RWY 18" "TEA make right crosswind departure climb 4000 report airborne" "TEA airborne passing 2000 for 4000" "TEA your cleared to bendigo via direct climb FL130"... It's really all coordination
@@jacobtheaviator9976 In the US, if you depart from an untowered airport (or outside of the operating hours of the tower), you would usually pick up your IFR clearance by phone (with a possible time limit or some kind of restriction). In theory, you can pick it up in the on the Approach/Center frequency too for a reason or another, but it's increasing everyone's workload, especially in busy airspaces like in this example
@@nathanvermeulen8392 oh wow I've never heard of that before, pretty cool, you can always depart OCTA as long as your vfr and out of an uncontrolled airfield down here and call airborne or even just remain OCTA aslong as your outside of the MVA and MSA and are monitoring approach if within 150nm of a major class C airport or centre if not,
In Class D airspace they absolutely can give you vectors but cannot use the radar for sequencing. Things must work a bit differently to the rest of the world in the US. To be fair I haven't flown VFR in probably a decade. I know from my charter days in Australia and South Africa you absolutely can file IFR airborne and I've heard VFR traffic receiving IFR clearance often as well. Odd that you can't in the US. I wouldn't expect to receive it from Tower or Departure but there would have to be a Centre frequency that he could.
If you have flown this area it is pretty obvious that you cannot extend the downwind leg by four miles and stay out of Rentons airspace - as was instructed by the tower. The airports are so close together that a normal downwind leg is not possible even if you don’t extend it. You have to keep it really tight and fly a heading that closes with the runway. If you then turn base at this point you fly straight through the centreline and into Seatac’s airspace. Also, it is really obvious that the aircraft is on an IFR flight because they are using a flight number as their callsign. If they were flying VFR they would have used their tail number. So a little common sense might have been applied by the tower. The tower clearly did not have their details and should have asked before releasing them and the pilots should have confirmed he knew what they were doing but that can be a little hard sometimes as typically you don’t get a friendly response these days when you question things.
that stuff happens in aviation , once I departed and the ATC calls to vector me back to the downwind , I asked the pilot monitoring to tell the ATC the go around traffic needs the downwind vectors and we need to remain on the departure leg , the ATC just apologized and recleared us to remain on the SID , it's common for the controllers to get mixed up which and whom is going where. Now this VISTA JET got a VFR departure which was enough to trigger their attention that there is a confusion with the ATC .
Because the tried to pull a fast one, getting airborne ahead of their slot and once airborne, demanding their IFR traffic slot which hadn’t been assigned yet.
@@skydive1424 it was explained better in another comment. Basically they filed for IFR but needed to take off in the opposite direction as filed due to their weight. They were cleared to take off VFR and transition to IFR but the tower never got this information. Goes to show how such a tiny bit of miscommunication can become so dangerous
@@12b_engineer he's right, ground didn't tell the tower it was an IFR departure, they departed VFR off a non-active runway for performance reasons but tower assumed they were VFR. That's not the pilot's fault.
And this is why you should pick up your IFR clearance on the ground and if you intend to take off vfr you shoul remind tower of your intentions. All of this could have been avoided with a little better communication at the beginning. Obviously the controller had no indication of a departure to the north and due to the pilots comments such as pattern altitude, down leg and base turn it was confusing if the pilot intended to stay in the pattern. Simple misunderstanding that made a departure very confusing and stressful. Props to the pilots for staying cool and collected and not getting flustered
This was very educational to me, because I used to live about an equal distance between KBFI and KSEA. I always wondered how those two airports, and Renton's Boeing Field, coordinated their ATC. Still don't have a complete picture of it, of course, but it was still interesting to listen to and watch (thanks for the great animation).
@@KingdaToro BFI and SEA are literally a stone throw away and the runways are lined up almost parallel. So this is way more serious than the things going on in NYC where there are many airports but far from this close to each other.
I want clear this whole situation up a bit further than other people may have noticed. Starting from the beginning, Vistajet didn't call up for a regular IFR clearance because they probably had a very high-paying important passenger that was late for something in Athens. He probably was held on the ground for whatever reason and was told to standby for his IFR clearance. He needed to desperately depart to get the passenger to Athens on time, so he decided to depart VFR so that he can just be ready for taxi and takeoff immediately, instead of having to wait for his IFR clearance. These Vistajet seemed to be foreign pilots that aren't very familiar with U.S. VFR procedures, and are especially not aware of how busy SeaTac is. So, they call up tower, holding short of the runway ready for departure, but they never reported their intentions or direction of flight and tower was confused on his intentions VFR. Tower asks Vistajet "just verifying your squawking VFR and understand you WANT a right traffic pattern?" This is a valid question to ask since tower probably never seen a Bombardier Global jet (about the size of CRJ200) depart VFR and also didn't know his intentions since he didn't call up with it. Vistajet thinks that the right traffic pattern question was an instruction and acknowledges it (they simply just said "right traffic pattern" as if it was an instruction for them), not knowing what kind of cluster he would get into, and also says "affirmative, squawking VFR 1200," as a response to tower's 1st part of the question. So tower clears the aircraft for takeoff and expects him to fly a regular traffic pattern like any other pilot would in a prop aircraft. However, the Vistajet pilots probably wanted to just depart VFR northbound or something and pick up IFR, they weren't expecting to fly a VFR pattern. It is quite hard/impossible to fly a tight regular traffic pattern in a big business jet fully loaded with fuel and passengers bound for Athens, and the pilots probably have never attempted to do a traffic pattern in such a jet either, so they ran into some troubles there. They would need to keep a high speed to maintain airborne due to their weight and that causes a slower turn to happen, which was problematic for ATC and other traffic in the area. The pilots also were refusing to land due to maximum landing weight which is part of their plan to force ATC into giving them a IFR clearance in the air to cut the queue and be on their way to Athens. In the end it looks like it worked out besides the horrendous traffic patterns: flightaware.com/live/flight/VJT868/history/20190613/1741Z/KBFI/LGAV
This still doesn’t make sense. The only way the controller would have thought they wanted to stay in the pattern is if the pilots specifically said they were looking to stay in the pattern. As far as I can tell the pilots basically said they just wanted a VFR departure. I’m confused at why the controller thinks this private jets wants to fly around in the pattern when the pilots mentioned nothing of the sort. Not saying the pilots were in the right here, but whenever I want to fly VFR I tell ATC my intentions, either what direction I want to fly, altitude, location, or if I want to simply stay in the pattern.
@@robjohnson3437 ... Well, when Vistajet calls ready for take off they don't mention intentions (which would be expected from a VFR flight), the tower then asks if they are flying a right traffic pattern to what the pilots confirm right traffic pattern (there seems to have been a misunderstanding, tower asked a question but pilots seem to have interpreted it as an instruction, to which they could have objected but didn't). Then tower again says (TWICE!) that pattern altitude will be 1500 and they don't object. Even when tower says continue downwind and I will call your base turn Vistajet doesn't object. Only when the tower says "you are overshooting your final, expect landing clearance on a 2 miles final" Vistajet says "we are departing to the North", and after an evasive maneuver request by the Tower and after the Tower asks for their intention again, only then they disclose "we are going to Athens". Really? So ok, yes, there was a lot of confusion, miscommunication and misunderstanding. But really? The pilots did not behave very professionally if you ask me. What did they expect? To take off and that the tower says "do whatever you want, hasta la vista vistajet"???
racinggamerfail So next time ATC can tell them to fly a pattern out over the ocean until they've reached max landing weight! Screw those selfish people!
I think the pilots never denied the pattern work instructions until it became unbearable for them was due to several reasons. These are foreign pilots who almost don't fly VFR at all , especially not under US FAA ATC, and as far as I know VFR procedures can be quite different in Europe. Because the pilots interpreted ATC's question as an instruction to fly a pattern, they did not want to object or deny any sort of INSTRUCTION that ATC gave them. If they denied any instruction, then it would mean that they would be possibly subject to more delays. The pilots must've been super desperate to do whatever they could to get in the air, even if it means complying with a ridiculous ATC instruction, which is very unprofessional in my opinion. I'm assuming they never have flown a VFR pattern in a jet like that ever in their lives and so they didn't know what to expect. But after trying to fly a pattern and getting into conflict with other aircraft in the busy airspace, they realized that it wasn't a viable option to continue and tried to finally request what they wanted to do in the 1st place (VFR departure to the north).
I was dispatching 121 ops. We had pilots take a vfr clearance to lga during flow control. They would sit right under class b space, at the end of 31, wait to land. ATC put a stop to that quickly.
Which pilot? The guy who took off for Greece without a flight plan or IFR clearance and expected to file it with the busy local controller while in the pattern? The guy who confirmed he was VFR before leaving the ground? I guess it does take nerves of steel to fly when you're that low-functioning and self-obsessed. I'm glad they're all safe.
@@beenaplumber8379 Thats not the case, look at the posts above, the Vistajet did file IFR flight plan but was too heavy so they said depart VFR and once airborne youll be set up for IFR, ground failed to relay that to tower and the pilot had no idea why they were being turned around
@@mattnsac My bad if I missed that detail. That adds a whole new dimension to the charlie foxtrot. That wasn't clear from the video, and the title says the Gulfstream caused the chaos, so that's why I thought he was being rather unreasonable. What a mess.
@@mattnsac even tho they had filed IFR already, they did not pick up an IFR clearance from the ground. The pilots are wrong for doing this. As per your comment about the ground controller not passing along the info to tower, that’s not the case bc he was squawking VFR and did not have an IFR squawk code. Also while departing, the tower controller did try to confirm the pilots intentions and they failed to communicate properly to the tower controller. The pilots are clearly in the wrong and should definitely be given a phone number to talk to the FAA so that they can learn US NAS procedures. It’s not that hard to pick up IFR on the ground at a towered airport.
@@meet1348 I bet you've never picked up an IFR clearance in your life outside of MS Flight Simulator. In the real world, getting an IFR release in congested airspace like that is a non-trivial task and is ridiculous in severe clear VMC conditions. I bet you think IFR should always be closed on the ground, too? Even if that means effectively shutting down the surrounding airspace for upwards of 15 minutes for no reason at all.
Correct, the channel owner probably couldnt tell difference of a Gulfstream which have oval windows and a Global. The bizjets are so hard to tell from looking at them.
@@ForeverMrZaphaell What kind of communication break down? So the takeoff briefing was "we are 10000 pounds above the landing weight and let's do a traffic pattern."
Is it me or did the ATC fuck it all up? Even I knew the 868 was departing. Why did the ATC want to land him??? Yeesh. I can't believe in 2021 with all the computerized technology we have they still haven't figured out how to automate departures and landings.
Arrogance. Tower wanted to teach a lesson to the VistaJet, because tower thought VistaJet shortcutted a departure with a VFR clearance. Turns out no lesson needed to be had since tower was wrong in that assumption. Conclusion: tower was an asshole that day.
And now I understand why Kennedy never even lets planes leave their gate without a flight plan at hand, because down the events, it just gets more and more stressful. I also don't understand why they let that Vistajet fly close to all the other arriving and departing traffic all the time, instead of putting him into a holding pattern away from everything, until they have their IFR clearance.
Not true, I have absolutely no aviation education but am still able to follow both whats going on in the video and the discussion in the comments. (I have listened to quite a few atc and technical aviation videos and played some flight sim though...)
Just communication(s) Rules & Regulations whereas, the pilot had a plan, however, information was not passed along to the local controller as to the "primary intentions" of the VFR departing Vistajet in the pattern and his intended "transition" to go from VFR departure to IFR clearance. ✈🌍😎
What a complete cluster. I started watching it thinking "these jet pilots forgot how to fly a standard pattern" until he asks for clearance and then understood the sneaky maneuver he tried to pull. I did the same thing two weeks ago but not out of a class Bravo. Launch VFR due to any number of reasons which would cause delays and pick up your clearance with Center as soon as you are airborne and out of the vicinity. This was a clever plan but abysmally executed and they should have known better, especially in a super busy airspace like SEATAC.
@@stephenzenerak7846 Depending on the traffic capacity of a certain area you may sometimes be "held for release" meaning that the controller is waiting for a capacity slot for you to depart with. At un-towered fields this is particularly common due to the airport only being able to handle one IFR aircraft at a time. If the weather is good you can depart VFR to get out of the congested/problematic area and then pick up your IFR clearance enroute. It sounds like that is what these guys tried to do but instead they asked to stay in the traffic pattern instead of requesting a "departure to the north". Then they tried to pick up an enroute clearance in an already congested airspace (which is why they probably weren't given their departure clearance on the ground) which likely annoyed the controllers as there are capacity restrictions in place for a reason. Trying to pick up an enroute clearance can backfire if you try to pull a fast one because ATC can decline if their workload permits (as they originally did in this video).
The shortest explanation is this: (and based largely on conjecture, as to the flight crew's motives) First, Download this.PDF: tinyurl.com/y2sp9z6y *I'm guessing that the passenger/passengers aboard 'pushed the flight crews's buttons' to get them the he** out of Seattle. Vistajet's dispatchers/flight ops staff must have had some knowledge as to what was up. Vistajet "ain't no small company", they are a large, and legitimate charter airline. Add to this, the fact that a G550, is a $45M, to $65M (amenities), very technically advanced machine; those pilots aren't the overworked/underappreciated and poorly paid commuter airline "puddle jumping jitney hack drivers, flying puddle jumpers just to build PIC time and get called-up to the big leagues", these guys would feel right at home at any large airline. *IFR flight plans involve significant planning, when considering that the probable flight route encompasses/incorporates a great deal of distance across Canada, and through Canadian airspace; over Greenland; over **Iceland; skirt Ireland and the UK; then, finally, "Eurocontrol". As before, this flight needed to submit an IFR Flight Plan, proposed route of travel, times of expected waypoint arrival/in-transition/transitional departure between those waypoints, altitudes, proposed/actual expected speeds, WEATHER, I say again - WEATHER. Remember, Jetstreams can either help you, or slow you down; they've had to have had a look at the latest "North Atlantic Track" mapping/projections. It would take no less than 45 minutes, to key-in the navigational waypoints necessary to fly to Athens, and that doesn't take into account, the (normally) three verification procedures and confirmations necessary in most airline policies and procedures manuals/documents. **Athens would distance-wise, be at or near the maximum range of a G550; I'd schedule a refuel @ Reykjavik NEVER PUSH THE MARGINS Combine this info, with the other stuff written in responses, and you'll be at least halfway there. This flight, plainly, and simply, pulled a bulls**t move, in an ill-advised attempt to butt in line. One thing is certain, someone, somewhere got chewed out, and bigtime, over this....
Does anyone know if they initially entered the IFR queue, and timed out, or attempted changes which locked them out, and voided the original IFR transmittal/sequence?? Sorry, and thanks!!
I love moments where the controllers get order crazy and start ordering planes “heading north, north now, you need to go north” when you’re looking at your heading indicator and it’s already showing 0/360 and your compass settles down and confirms it along with your gps. “Approach, we’re already heading North... so please advise?” Or “I need you to turn north, turn faster” and you just get to respond “we began turning at the first order, we’re already in a maximum bank, are you suggesting I ignore my plane’s restrictions, is this an emergency?” and hear them start to take their tone down
When you're about to run into another airplane, you don't think that constitutes maybe an emergency and to expedite the turn BEYOND their max 30 degree bank?
What the hell is going on here..why did he takeoff vfr and fly around at 1500ft and then tell them he's going to Athens..am I missing something here?? His passengers must be loving this
getting an IFR release can take longer in busy airspace. getting your ifr clearance in the air is a way around that. but doing that for a trans-oceanic clearance? that's stretching it. the controller was pissed and rightfully so.
ElvianEmpire In a Bravo airport, almost certainly clearance is required to leave the airspace. (Including VFR departures). Usually you’ll hear “VFR departures contact clearance delivery” on the ATIS. The only exception is aircraft remaining in the pattern since they aren’t leaving and don’t need to be sequences. They’re under positive control from the tower. So a VFR departure out without clearance likely isn’t legal here.
@@RomansFiveDotEight - I got my initial private pilot's license at BFI. You can depart VFR just talking to the tower. But because you have SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton just a few miles to the east, it is INCREDIBLY tight airspace and there are very specific corridors you must fly. These corridors are narrow, but with a modicum of preparation and careful attention to landmarks you can do it no problem. Student pilots manage this several times a day at BFI, flying about 15 miles E to go practice maneuvers, then flying back into BFI airspace to practice landings. These Jet Jokers obviously did _not_ understand the airspace or the requirements for flying VFR properly out of BFI. Their sloppy maneuvering is a shameful display that demonstrates their lack of understanding (or disregard for) the incredible amount of air traffic surrounding BFI - all of it flying at a similar altitude. The airport has pamphlets in just about every FBO and business around the airport that explains these corridors and procedures! And again: If student pilots can understand this stuff, it ain't rocket science. Although it still would've been a bit shady, they could have departed VFR and flown at a low level to the north or the south (through the defined corridors underneath SEATAC airspace), then climbed up once clear of the Class B airspace and dialed up ATC on the phone or the radio to get their IFR clearance. Instead they deliberately misled the BFI Tower by stating that they were going to just make a couple of pattern flights around the airport. Their initial radio calls clearly set expectations with ATC that they were just doing a quick flight. But then *after* screwing up the pattern and obviously having problems remaining in the proper airspace, they started asking for IFR clearance from the Tower (not the right guys to ask in any case) all while the controllers are still dealing with the aftermath of their poor maneuvering *and* while they are still posing a possible threat to the other airplanes in the immediate vicinity. That controller was perfectly justified in telling them to go to hell (i.e. land the plane).
Well that was a complete balls up by ATC. Had them conducting a right base into on coming traffic lol wtf. Then no suggestions from the Captain on vista686 to make left turn or anything? Surprised the vista686 didn’t question what atc was thinking with the downwind departure and right turn after take off from 32L. Why not just request a VFR departure hdg to intercept outbound track and just maintain 1500ft till clear of the airfield then pick you your ifr clearance with you request for climb? The 1500ft requirement call from ATC would’ve been the trigger for me to question things at the holding point. What a shmozzel
This was amazing to listen to, very strange that no IFR clearance was taken by the crew on the ground, especially in that airspace and than picking it up in the circuit 😳. Oh well for everything there's a first.... nice and very good professional controller btw who helped them out taking the clearance airborne anyway..... Just wanted to say that as there were some remarks about him being in the wrong. Happy everything went without big incidents....
There is a comment that is fortunately now at the top of the page explaining the context. The aircraft had an IFR flight plan all set up before departure but had to change runway for performance reasons. The new runway could only be flown under VFR, so Ground advised the aircraft to take off with VFR and then pick up their planned IFR clearance airborne. However, Tower was never informed of this fact and assumed someting between the aircraft wanting to (a) fly patterns and come back in or (b) wanting to request an IFR clearance out of the blue mid-air.
I’ve watched this about 5 times now. There’s so many funny moments!!! 😂 Also, I’ll be flying commercial a few times in the next couple of months. I would have been fine, but this might make me nervous now!
Hey Michael, I know the pilots have operational limits they have to fly the plane within, but the "we're at max bank" kind of sounded to me as more of a "F-you ATC" and less of a "this is all she can handle at the moment." Am I correct? (Edited to get the correct quote.)
When ATC told a departing plane to fly base I was a bit confused because I usually only hear that instruction given for planes arriving. But the pilot copied the instruction and started flying a south base even though he was departing north, so I figured everything must be okay. However when ATC said that 686 is overrunning their turn for final I almost crapped my pants. Then when ATC calls the flight 848 at 4:34 I did a facepalm. But I have to keep in mind that a bad day in the office for me means that someone can’t print or the coffee pot was empty. A bad day in the office for a controller means that people die. It’s such an incredibly stressful job that there’s a maximum age limit for new controllers, just like there’s a max age limit to join most (if not all) branches of the military. I commend the pilot of 868 for staying calm and being polite. He had every right to be upset about the danger he was put into but he was professional enough to know that his main priority was the safety of the souls onboard, and that there will be plenty of time to complain later.
I noted that about half way through 868 switches who is talking on the radio. I wonder if the first pilot was worried he'd loose his professional calm with ATC.
I live a mile from BFI and it’s quite a lively mix of GA, Freight, Charter, Airtankers, and the occasional F-18 Growler wing popping in from Whidbey NAS
As an ASEL pilot I’d be so stressed swimming among those large turbine aircraft. Just listening to this I’m glad I’m a hobby flyer and keep it simple and fun.
It looked like tower thought that the jet wanted to fly a standard pattern, come back and land. It turns out big fella wanted to go to Athens and pick up IFR airborne but the tower controller did not know his intentions. That’s what caused the confusion from what it looks like here. However, although the pilots were legal as per part 91 rules, the pilots should have let tower know that they intended to depart VFR northbound, instead of not saying anything when tower mentioned the traffic pattern.
@@smitty1893 I know he didn't want to fly a pattern, he just deceived the controller by telling him he wanted to fly the pattern when he in reality had other intentions. Is it legal to lie to the controller like that? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm genuinely asking.
ATC fault, no real fault of Vistajet at all. Thank heavens the pilot was so calm and steady. But to be fair, it's horrendous airspace and ATC have a massive amount to do. Such congestion shouldn't be so common, but that's the way in some places. The "I want" culture in spades.
Circuits in an overweight (at least for landing) Gulfstream... Sounds like fun. Even with the communication breakdown between controllers, it seems like the pilots and the tower had a few opportunities to confirm the intentions before the a/c was even airborne.
You can take off vfr and pick up your ifr clearance with approach if they're not busy if not you can always get it with the local flight service station. Not sure what the confusion was all about.
He probably would've gotten what he wanted, if he'd just asked for a VFR departure to the east or north, and then asked for flight following, and then asked for IFR clearance from Center while giving his VIP passenger a flyby of Snoqualmie Falls...
blake 1. Busy airspace, tracon spitting out instructions with hardly any space to check in, so you have to wait. 2. While waiting, you’re inside a busy airspace with no established separation services, so you have to focus outside, not inside in writing down clearances.
@@philipmcniel4908 See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
Raynair would consider that a passenger sightseeing excursion , flying around at 1500. The flight attendants will be down the isles to collect from anyone with a window seat . Cash only please
The response to needing 5 hours to burn fuel should have been holding instructions. Make him waste the fuel. The pilot can always pickup his toys and leave as in go vfr out of the bravo and get a plan.
Fuel dumping is something to be done only when there's no other options (i.e. an emergency or a situation in which the pilots deem that they must return to the airport ASAP), it's a rather dangerous operation, traffic at or bellow FL of the aircraft dumping must be alerted not to fly in the area among other considerations like economical and environmental.
It’s legal to pick up an IFR in the air with departure. It’s quite common to ask tower for VFR departure to say the North, and then pick up your filed route with departure. Now you can ask for closed pattern, and then leave the pattern, and not tell tower what’s going on.
Vistajet says, "every journey is tailored to ensure seamless travel in elegant interiors incorporating in-flight offices and a home away from home environment". Their panes have at minimum 3 different sleeping positions. The top 1% rules the world.
Could they just plan and ask the tower for a VFR flight to the east and fly below the Bravo airspace to a less busy airspace then get their IFR clearance later with Center ?
So is the assumption that the crew were delayed in picking up their IFR and decided then to just take off anyway and hope that Clearance would give them their IFR while airborne? Yikes. How unprofessional.
Welcome to the world of executive Aviation... if your customer wants you to depart now, you better do so, or he’ll finds someone who can for sure... 🤷🏼♂️
It’s... legal. If Ill advised. It’s legal to takeoff VFR and pickup an IFR clearance in the air. But... that’s usually in the context of small piston aircraft departing small untowered fields. Or perhaps taking off with marginal weather; wanting to go VFR, but filing an IFR flight plan in case the weather turns poor (and they need to pick it up in the air)
James Lee well... for me it was a common procedure during flight training. If we received a Slot and were very short in time, we filed a new Zulu Flight Plan, departed VFR and picked up our clearance once airborne. However.. that happened outside CTR Airspace D. And no I’m not saying, that the pilots showed any good airmanship. I was simply giving an possible explanation for them to do this.
Tyler Vossler A jet departed hoping to pick up the authorization for their flight plan in the air but instead was taken on a wild goose chase around the airport.
Pilot was NOT trying to pull a "fast one". He had an IFR filed, but safety reasons forced him to make a nonstandard (opposite direction!) departure, factors including plane weight and surrounding environment, and could only depart VFR. There was an IFR clearance waiting, pre-arranged, which the Ground controller (who'd _made_ them depart VFR) didn't pass along! Departure incorrectly assumed first that he was just flying patterns around the GA field, then second that he was trying to pull a fast one (by getting IFR while airborne). The crazy vectoring happened because an executive jet covers territory faster than a pilot school 172, and doesn't turn as sharply either.
Why would they not pickup ifr on the ground? Boeing field has a perfectly good clearance frequency which was active (I pulled up liveatc archives to make sure).. Why would they not want departure to vector them safely away from seatac traffic, especially since they were going to pickup ifr anyway?
Sometimes if there is a delay in picking up IFR on the ground for whatever reason, some pilots would go VFR then pick it up with departure. it's a schedule thing, keeping his time slot or just don't like waiting.
Whoa! This makes no sense. This Vista jet took off and then expected to get IFR clearance to another country while on departure?! Why didn’t he get his IFR clearance before taxing like everyone else? Lol wow. It’s not like this was an uncontrolled airport
Yeah. A "near-miss" mid-air right over the airport because a couple Commonwealth cocksuckers with an entitlement complex every.big as their "skills" and "training" and capacity to "pilot" anything but a PAPER AIRPLANE COMPETENTLY IS SMALL DECIDE TO "OUTSMART" ATC, THE FAA AND THE "TRAFFIC" BY "PLAYING DUMB" SO CONVINCINGLY BECAUSE AS ANYBODY WITH A FUNCTIONING BRAIN CAN SEE/HEAR THEY DON'T HAVE TO "PLAY DUMB" PERIOD AND OBVIOUSLY "OUTSMARTED" ONLY THEMSELVES IS JUST FUCKING "HILARIOUS", ISN'T IT? SO.WHO WAS DOING YOUR JOB WHILE YOU WERE STANDING AROUND WATCHING THE AIRSHOW" AND HOPING TO SEE SOMETHING "FUNNY"? WHATEVER AMERICAN CO-WORKER(S) OF YOURS WHO ALWAYS HAVE TO COVER FOR A DUMBFUCK "PLANESPOTTER" THAT'S PROBABLY IN "AMERICA" TO "WORK" ON THE SAME H1B "GUEST WORKER" VISA THAT LETS "COMMONWEALTH CITIZENS" INTO THE U.S. SO THEY CAN BE A WASTE OF SPACE IN HERE INSTEAD OF BACK "HOME" WHERE EVEN THEIR FELLOW "COMMONWEALTH CITIZENS" CAN SEE THEY'RE USELESS AND ACCIDENTS WAITING TO HAPPEN? PROBABLY. SO HOW.MANY TOILETS CAN SCRUB OR TRASH CANS CAN YOU EMPTY AT YOUR "AVIATION INDUSTRY" JOB BEFORE YOUR "MIND" STARTS TO WANDER AND YOU SLIP BACK INTO "PLANESPOTTER" MODE?
It's a pretty common thing IRL. You can take off VFR and get your IFR clearance from the Approach/Departure controller. If you're at a Bravo airport you can call up ground and say you want to take off VFR and get IFR clearance airbourne. It's a shortcut if you don't want to wait for a slot on the ground
I presume he should have said he was departing VFR to the north and then contacted approach for the clearance?. But could he not have gotten the clearance from the tower before getting airborn?
He would have been in a long lineup for departure if he was leaving with the rest of the IFR flights. Leaving VFR and then picking up IFR enroute was his cunning plan. I'm sure he's done it many times with a more savvy controller.
@@andytaylor1588 So I presume then for an IFR departure, it would have had to be coordinated with all the other IFR departures from the other airports?
Yea the tower should of giving him to departure to have them make him IFR. I wouldn't be surprised if he got his IFR on the ground and then when he found out he was getting delayed decided to depart VFR.
couldnt help but laugh IMO lol what would have been really funny if they said "no we cant negotiate, hold out there for 5 hours to get max landing weight and then you can pick up your ifr clearance" 0.0
I am starting to understand the IFR VFR trick. But I cannot sort out the controllers directions from there. Why was the controller telling the Vistajet to go south were he got into trouble with the 757? Seemingly in preparations for a landing the Vistajet didn't want and claimed he couldn't make? Then to contact approach? After flying around a bit Vistajet went on off to the north then to Athens. So very little of this makes sense to me.
During the initial radio calls, the Vistajet pilots made it sound like they were going to fly a couple of laps around the airport (this is referred to as the "pattern"). You do it to practice landings or to stay close to the airport to check a potential problem with the airplane (such as after maintenance). So for the first several minutes the controller was trying to get the VistaJet pilots to make a proper (tight) lap around the airport area. Doing this properly is especially crucial at BFI airport because it has SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton airport just a few miles to the east. All are busy airports with everything from small Cessna-type airplanes, to Biz-jets, to big Airliners flying in and out. Its complicated airspace that is all very clearly marked and flying there you have set procedures and directions you're supposed to fly. These guys obviously had no clue - they were wandering around making huge wide turns, straying into neighboring airspace, and coming within a mile or less of big/fast airplanes flying in the opposite direction. After they started talking about IFR to Athens, the controller was still trying to get them to fly a traffic pattern around the airport so that he could keep their asses away from the other airports/airplanes for the safety of everyone involved. He was buying time to "work the problem". Eventually he starts telling them to go south and fly over the runway because that is one of the published departure routes from BFI (when flying VFR). Its a corridor of airspace that avoids SEATAC traffic and allows you to safely get away from the busy traffic areas. Basically, the controller was just doing his best to make it stupid-simple for them to get the heck away from the area, fly the direction they _should_ have flown from the beginning (i.e. if they'd known what they were doing they could have departed VFR to the south along this route and the controller would've happily let them take off, turn right 180 degrees, and then fly south - no drama and it would've taken all of about 3 minutes).
Ok so if you dont understand what is going on this is what i can gather: Pilot requested a VFR clearence because it is probably easier and faster than a IFR clearence, knowing that after they take off they will be in everybodys way and then ask for an IFR clearence for their destination, ATC cant order them to land overweight since technically they are doing everything “legal” its just that they are a pain in the ass, so basically they are blackmailing atc into giving them IFR clearence while airborne just so atc can get rid of them, probably a loophole somewhere, seems like they have done this before, i am probably wrong in some regards but i guess everyone will comment how am i wrong in the replys so 🤷🏼♂️
Hi Juan... I don't know much about aircraft beyond following this channel. But this is super interesting to me. As someone totally ignorant about flying, would it be correct for me to summarize: The pilot wanted to get off the ground faster so he asked for VFR clearance. With VFR it's his job to keep himself out of the way of other planes and certain airspace. So he gets up in the air and then requests IFR instructions where it becomes the tower's job to keep him out of the way of other planes. And the tower isn't able to give him IFR (or they would have let him take off with IFR instead of VFR) and so he ends up straying all over the place and getting in the way of other aircraft. Just trying to figure out if I've got it right, lots of people arguing on here :)
For the know-nothings, how did ATC switch from having the Gulfstream depart to land again? ATC says thy can't give IFR clearance airborne. Does that mean the Gulfstream had not cleared a plan before takeoff?
My god... what we don't hear is the frantic coordination between this tower controller and some sort of departure controller trying to get this guy in some sort of sequence to exit VFR but also to be in a position to transition to an IFR flight plan. What a cluster... I trained as a controller for about 8 months and said no thanks to that job. I'm went ahead and picked up my pilot training instead. Just passed my IFR checkride a few weeks ago and starting commercial soon.
Well, he didn't do anything wrong or didn't do anything deviated from what instructed so no number needed. What's wrong is the way of doing things by both parts.
*Listening to this was both funny and frustrating!!*
Why this confusion for a flight which is intended to go directly to the east and cross the pond towards Europe?
VASAviation - probably because KSEA causes tons of ground stops and other massive congestion delays for KBFI due to the huge traffic volumes and geographic overlap between the two.
Clearly an ATC error if the Vistajet filed the flight plan correctly.
Random Acts of Video I think the entire point is that they deliberately filed it wrong to try and make an end run around the regulations. And that made life hell for the guy trying to manage the weird airspace at BFI.
UK PPL here. That pilot should have picked up his route clearance before departure. Sounds like he was trying to shortcut the system by departing VFR in an aircraft unsuited to the traffic conditions. My guess is he was being pressured into cutting corners by a spoilt rich kid in the back, but at the end of the day it’s the captain’s responsibility. He caused unnecessary chaos for others, and demonstrated unprofessional behaviour and poor airmanship. A disgrace to the usually high professional standards of UK and EU aircrew.
@@matthewhall5571 It's unclear if thats what happened. If it did then its a huge issue.
Pattern work in a Gulfstream. Best 40k ever spent on landing practice.
I had always wondered how SeaTac and BFI managed to avoid traffic conflicts when their runways are almost parallel and running into each other. Turns out, they don't 🤷🏼♀️
That VistaJet turned into THREE jets. 848, 858 and 868. I'm not sure the controller knew which one he was talking to.
Just got off the phone with Vista Air dispatch, they are still doing circuits and expect to fly VFR to athens
LOL!
Yep, only at 17,500ft. Estimated additional flight time: hours and hours.
LMAO! I needed that
😄😄😄👍
Good thing, they will pick up G airspace over oceanic area without bugging for clearances.
What a cluster. Imagine being a passenger with these max bank turns and flying around in circles. OMG.
Eh, if the passengers were pressuring the pilots to take off and shortcut the process in the first place, they deserve what they got. Besides, "max bank" in a business jet is _not_ a sporty or aerobatic maneuver. The folks in back might have been spilling their drinks but its not like they were getting tossed around. :-P
Rest assured, the pilot did not pull this stunt do to "pressure from the passengers"...more like pressure from the check writers
@@bgribbz VistaJet is the kind of company that will get you a transatlantic flight on a private jet with less than a days notice. The cheque writers are the passengers. These are the kind of people who think their time is too valuable and they find themselves too important to have to wait on such things as "picking up IFR clearance on the ground".
From their own website "...146,000 flights, 367,000 passengers ..." or about 2.5 passengers on the average flight. I can't be bothered to look up how many passengers KLM, BA, Emirates or Quantas haul around the place, but I doubt that they'll average about 2.5 passengers per flight.
@Zaphod Whiskers I suppose the passengers don't write their own cheques, but rather their accountants do.
@Zaphod Whiskers Ummm earth, naturally. No the passengers DO NOT write the checks, they simply pay a company, and said company writes the pilots checks... you seem a little butthurt for some reason....are you a pilot that got fired by a check writing passenger or something?
I've always said I've wanted a job where my biggest decision is going left or right. After watching this Ive changed my mind.
You could hear the panic in the tower’s voice when the Gulfstream got close to the 757
Well he sent them there...
Several mistakes: 1) ground didn't relay the plan to tower. 2) pilots didn't verify plan with tower. 3) pilots should've questioned the fact that they were given right closed traffic rather than a VFR departure on course. 4) pilots completely hosed the right traffic instruction. They were told to turn right based and botched it (overlying the final, violating the SEA bravo interfered with the SEA south departures). What a mess, all of it avoidable. Very interesting video....could make for excellent training. So many assumptions on top of assumptions, and missed clues.
Tower appeared aware of the plan to take off VFR and remain in the traffic pattern. It is so weird for that kind of plane that they asked to confirm and the pilot verbally confirmed every aspect of that plan. The pilot did not say he planned to zip around in the pattern of highly congested airspace in a G650 or whatever at 1500 feet while trying to pick up his transoceanic clearance. If he had told that to tower, they would have flat out denied him. It was an insane plan on the part of the pilot.
@@edomalley1 Yeah that about sums it up haha.
@@edomalley1 He wouldn't be getting his oceanic clearance until Iceland, in the meantime he needed an IFR clearance.
Just as long as it doesn't end with..."do you have a pen, I have a number for you to call", then it's all good haha....
XD true!
Facts
Been there!
I fly with an Aerial survey company, as a LEO not a pilot. We fly around Washington DC every year taking updated photos for maps. One year we flew into restricted airspace (P-56) and got the dreaded, "Be prepared to copy FAA control number." Pilot I was flying with had Interviews coming up for a Commercial airline and was nervous as could be. We landed and called, luckily it was just a learning moment and he didn't get anything put on his record. The FAA people we spoke to were pretty decent about the whole thing. We were 8000 AGL and had been in constant communication with ATC so no flight back with fighter jets or anything.
Law enforcement officer.
1500 so much fun at max bank 🤣
"868 requesting departure the the Northeast" might have saved a lot of trouble. Tower doesn't care what happens after you leave, so just fly VFR for a couple minutes to get away from the obvious misunderstanding going on here.
Vistajetpilot, unflappably cool as a cucumber 😁
Because he is British 😉
868: let me leave, I’ve already asked to leave
Tower: Impossible! Perhaps the archives are incomplete?
Underrated comment lol
Rflmao
Wasn’t there a clue in the transmissions between ATC and the pilot : “pattern altitude and downwind leg”. Surely that would have indicated someone staying in the circuit.
Exactly he said “I’ll call your base” twice. If he wasn’t planning to land why didn’t that tip him off the ATC misunderstood his intentions.
@@JH-in5oq because they were trying to pull a fast one and file an airborne flight plan and depart from a vfr flight but they had not reckoned on the amount of traffic inbound to more than one airport n their immediate vicinity nor had they reckoned on the controller not giving them an immediate IFR handover as the controller was trying to keep everyone alive as pop up traffic just kept arriving after pop up traffic ( well pop up with regards to the vista jet crew) and all the crew would have liked to do was blast off into the night talking to the IFR controller but the local ATC had given them a southerly escape route with a nice IFR handover but they still didn't realise that close proximity shit was happening all around them and the local ATC controller was trying to keep everyone alive until such times as they were clear to the south out of the way of the impending traffic.
The comment here about can ATC handle traffic into both airports is "Yes" but not with impromptu traffic flying the circuit but not flying the circuit under vfr requiring IFR departures and not actually landing or going around.......?!
Somebody somewhere didn't get an IFR slot departure when still on the ground (probably due to the mass of traffic inbound) so the crew thought let's go into the circuit vfr and then switch to IFR and fly away. Had there been no traffic inbound, at their height, and something like 2 am local then maybe that would have worked well. But it wasn't and it didn't. Messy and embarrassing.
They might, might have tried a vfr flight to Greece at a low altitude, as in low like 1,000 ft and then headed off to Greece and then when out of the traffic zone (and the traffic) then pick it up with the IFR boys and get a clearance and a level.
Personally I would have let them blast off to an oceanic area under vfr and let them file an airborne flight plan but I am not a controller and he was trying to keep them alive and separated from the traffic there were in. It's a lodda fun.
The tiny mistake was to vouch to stay in the circuit, I suppose they could not go off into the night under VFR as there maybe no VFR at night!!
So I'm gathering from everyone else's comments, but tell me... is this what happened?
1 - Pilots had IFR but refiled because their initial runway was no-go due to performance issues
2 - new IFR sat a little too long with ground and didn't make it to the tower in time
3 - pilots took off VFR assuming the IFR was in the tower and shortly to be approved
4 - tower tried to keep them in VFR traffic but the plane was unable due to configuration
5 - pilots assumed tower knew what they wanted and tower assumed pilots were wanting something else
6 - nobody had a good day, but paperwork was minimal
Seems about right to me too, I don’t think anybody is really at fault here besides the individual that failed to relay IFR to tower.
Nailed it. I knew there was more to the story because as a pilot flying a 737, he had a lot of experience flying out of airports across the world. He isn't going to wake up one day and say "F*ck it. Let's make up our own rules today." Plus, there had to be a reason for the Tower to think he was trying to land right after take off. What a complete cluster.
This whole thing was caused by ground not telling tower or departure that this was an IFR flight. The runway change was for safety. The pilot however could have made things easier by explaining he had IFR clearance and had no intention to fly patterns! Sometimes standard ATC doesn't cover what was obviously a misunderstanding. The controller might have wondered why a fully loaded Corporate jet would want to do pattern practice! The clue was in the pilot repeatedly telling the controller he was fully fuelled and could not do tight turns. But equally all the pilot needed to have said was that he correctly filed an IFR plan and at the very least needed vectors out of the area!
I am not sure the Vistajet pilots had IFR clearence, because they refused their original IFR clearence, and never received an amended IFR clerence for runway 32L (as it was restricted for self-separating VFR traffic). Ground/Delivery is not authorized to negotiate changes in flight plans on behalf of the tower or departure ATC units, so expecting Ground to tell Tower what to do is a misunderstanding how ATC works. Ground/Delivery cannot re-plan or override the clearences/restrictions from departure/approach/area control by itself.
How is this ATC's fault? He squawked VFR and took off. He was trying to jump the line to get his IFR clearance by doing in mid-air. In busy airspace thats not always guaranteed. I've heard people doing this when I flew KLAX a lot and people would be denied their IFR its just too busy for clearance to be doing that.
The Vistajet had the stupid idea of taking off VFR, picking up his IFR clearance in route, and then flying IFR. Had he picked up his IFR clearance before taxiing, that never would have happened. But he’s super special, so he can do his own thing and forget everyone else!
Doesn’t misunderstandings in this industry cause deaths?
It's still ultimately the PICs responsibility to have what he needs before flight to include clearance
Lot of questions here about how and why, so here is my take as a 30 year veteran air traffic controller in Chicago.
Pilot files a flight plan for Athens, and then calls for clearance. ATC gives ground delay for possibly hundreds of different reasons. Pilot, or pax don’t like the delay so pilot decides to get around it by departing VFR under the mistaken idea that he will be given IFR clearance once airborne. In this case probably tried to use the rouse that they were staying in the pattern, this may have been because the entire airport was stopped for all outgoing traffic, or conditions outside the immediate area were IFR.
ATC is not required to issue IFR flight plan to airborne VFR flights, and it’s highly unlikely tower guy could do it anyway. If VFR aircraft encounters IFR conditions a radar facility can provide IFR control but are in no way required to give a requested IFR route or destination and would not do so if they couldn’t for any reason.
I have had pilots do this very thing in the center environment. Ground stopped to XYZ airport so pilot departs VFR to avoid ground stop then tries to activate flight plan.
This could have, and should have gone like this
Pilot: we can’t land for 5 hours
Controller: roger, you are cleared to BFI via direct “point” intersection, “point 3 arrival”. Climb and maintain 7k hold at “point” as published expect further clearance in 5 hours.
Pilot can’t do anything but cancel IFR request or request a destination that he can be cleared to.
As a private pilot, I don't understand why doing this in a center environment would be a problem. I always pick up my ifr clearances in the air unless a vfr departure is unsafe, and I've heard that controllers actually prefer it that way as long as you are able to continue VFR as until they can work you into the flow.
Obviously what this guy did is very different. I'd never try to cut a line by circling the airport "vfr" to force out a clearance. I'm talking about a normal VFR see-and-avoid departure, upgraded to IFR once safely away from the congested airport environment.
Hell yes...He should have got a hold with an EFC 5 hours in the future! HAHAHA
Its notable that the initial takeoff is for runway 32L, and after that all traffic seems to be routing in on southbound runways. BFI and SEATAC are so close together that BFI runway direction always follows SEATAC - regardless of winds at BFI.
My hunch is that SEATAC was in the process of switching runway directions and VistaJet was told to turn around and taxi all the way to the other end of the airport (a 10,000' runway). That would likely have taken 10-15 minutes and might have resulted in a few planes slotting in ahead of them, so they requested a pattern flight in an attempt to get off the ground before the runway direction was flipped.
Supporting evidence: Check out Cessna 804 (from about 1:30 to 2:45 in the video). He comes in like he's going to make right traffic for 32R, but gets flipped around to an abbreviated left pattern for 14L. I've had that happen to me when I was getting my PPL at BFI. :-)
exactly..brillant
As I understand it, VistaJet's normal business model charges for time flown, so those five hours would have been charged to what Kennedy Steve liked to call the 1% sitting behind the flight deck.
This interaction should be used as an example of how a Captain, First Officer or GA pilot should always maintain there composure when speaking to ATC. Regardless of the situation, An ATC’s job is to provide a safe, orderly flow of traffic. ATC controllers are human, so frustration and anxiety can creep into their brain as well. The pilot handled the complete interaction perfectly by not taking anything personal. Well done, sir!
What are you talking about? The pilot totally mislead the controller and asked for pattern work but only told him he wanted his cross oceanic clearance once he was about to bust airspace. Totally failed to let him know that he wouldn't be able to land at all let alone beat up the pattern. Literally tied the controllers hands. Sure this dude was cool as a cucumber but he totally boned the controller in the process.
@@mikey554 Yep. There is another aviation blog which posted this flight and explained what happened. A private jet trying to depart SEATAK for an overseas flight might have to wait for an hour or more to receive an IFR clearance. So the pilot pulled a fast one: Got VFR clearance instead, and by using the term "downwind leg" clearly suggested to the ATC that he was intending to land. Once in the air, he made his intentions more clear by requesting an inflight IFR, which is not normally done, according to the other aviation blog. When the ATC told him to land, he then discloses that he's overweight (due to the fuel needed to fly to Athens, presumably). So the ATC is stuck. Not really very professional.
I am a corporate pilot: what this pilot did is completely irresponsible. As the PIC it is your responsibility to call in your flight plan with enough time to get a clearance. I typically file it over breakfast or in a taxi; by the time I’m in the jet 1 hour later it’s ready. For lack of 2-5 minutes of work, this guy endangered hundreds of lives.
Copied an explanation from elsewhere:
"The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed."
lmao wtf ^
So here are some explanations to understand who did what and why :
-TWR asks the aircraft to squawk VFR and to confirm their intentions : right traffic pattern The crew confirmed and never questioned. TWR kept on giving pattern instructions, the crew still don't question anything.
-The crew did not pick up their IFR clearance on the ground (which is standard worldwide, especially if your IFR Flight Plan starts at your departure airport).
-To my understanding, BFI is a VFR TWR. VFR Towers are not allowed to give radar vectors. They can give a direction to fly (e.g., eastbound turn), a suggested heading (e.g., fly suggested VFR hdg of 350) but no vector unlike the approach.
-When an IFR traffic is ready to depart AFTER it has receiced its IFR departure clearance, on a VFR Towered airport, both the approach and the tower need to coordinate. The IFR aircraft is sometimes held on the ground, waiting for the approach to "release" the aircraft ("hold for release" procedure). So here is the situation for this video : there is an aircraft, which is intending to fly IFR, which hasn't received its IFR departure clearance, and which is already airborne. Let's imagine the level of coordination between the tower and the approach now required...
Yea very well explained btw!
The only time you'd pick up clearence in the air In Australia is departing out of class G airports such as avalon, essedon, moorabin etc if tower is not currently online but it'd be something like this "Melbourne approach good afternoon VHTEA is an IFR cirrus sr22 taxies moorabin for bendigo 2 pob" "TEA Melb apch sqwack 3604 no reported ifr traffic report ready at the holding point" *some times passes* "TEA ready at RWY 18" "TEA make right crosswind departure climb 4000 report airborne" "TEA airborne passing 2000 for 4000" "TEA your cleared to bendigo via direct climb FL130"... It's really all coordination
@@jacobtheaviator9976 In the US, if you depart from an untowered airport (or outside of the operating hours of the tower), you would usually pick up your IFR clearance by phone (with a possible time limit or some kind of restriction). In theory, you can pick it up in the on the Approach/Center frequency too for a reason or another, but it's increasing everyone's workload, especially in busy airspaces like in this example
@@nathanvermeulen8392 oh wow I've never heard of that before, pretty cool, you can always depart OCTA as long as your vfr and out of an uncontrolled airfield down here and call airborne or even just remain OCTA aslong as your outside of the MVA and MSA and are monitoring approach if within 150nm of a major class C airport or centre if not,
In Class D airspace they absolutely can give you vectors but cannot use the radar for sequencing. Things must work a bit differently to the rest of the world in the US. To be fair I haven't flown VFR in probably a decade. I know from my charter days in Australia and South Africa you absolutely can file IFR airborne and I've heard VFR traffic receiving IFR clearance often as well. Odd that you can't in the US. I wouldn't expect to receive it from Tower or Departure but there would have to be a Centre frequency that he could.
If you have flown this area it is pretty obvious that you cannot extend the downwind leg by four miles and stay out of Rentons airspace - as was instructed by the tower. The airports are so close together that a normal downwind leg is not possible even if you don’t extend it. You have to keep it really tight and fly a heading that closes with the runway. If you then turn base at this point you fly straight through the centreline and into Seatac’s airspace.
Also, it is really obvious that the aircraft is on an IFR flight because they are using a flight number as their callsign. If they were flying VFR they would have used their tail number. So a little common sense might have been applied by the tower.
The tower clearly did not have their details and should have asked before releasing them and the pilots should have confirmed he knew what they were doing but that can be a little hard sometimes as typically you don’t get a friendly response these days when you question things.
5:45 , last half of the sentence is "we're picking an IFR up on the other box" (the other radio)
-Looks like one of AirforceProud95 videos 😅
Needs more hot air balloons doing mach 3.
@@1320fastback Oh, don't forget the Boeing 747 Air Force One landing on the carrier.
You win best comment for this one.
Can you imagine trying to pull this on the server when he's the tower? "Negative, Tower. We're at max bank."
😂😂💀
that stuff happens in aviation , once I departed and the ATC calls to vector me back to the downwind , I asked the pilot monitoring to tell the ATC the go around traffic needs the downwind vectors and we need to remain on the departure leg , the ATC just apologized and recleared us to remain on the SID , it's common for the controllers to get mixed up which and whom is going where.
Now this VISTA JET got a VFR departure which was enough to trigger their attention that there is a confusion with the ATC .
im confused about why ATC kept steering 868 into traffic
Because the tried to pull a fast one, getting airborne ahead of their slot and once airborne, demanding their IFR traffic slot which hadn’t been assigned yet.
@@skydive1424 it was explained better in another comment. Basically they filed for IFR but needed to take off in the opposite direction as filed due to their weight. They were cleared to take off VFR and transition to IFR but the tower never got this information. Goes to show how such a tiny bit of miscommunication can become so dangerous
@@skydive1424 wrong. ATC messed this up.
@@virginiaviola5097 lol no. Wtf is wrong with you
@@12b_engineer he's right, ground didn't tell the tower it was an IFR departure, they departed VFR off a non-active runway for performance reasons but tower assumed they were VFR. That's not the pilot's fault.
And this is why you should pick up your IFR clearance on the ground and if you intend to take off vfr you shoul remind tower of your intentions. All of this could have been avoided with a little better communication at the beginning. Obviously the controller had no indication of a departure to the north and due to the pilots comments such as pattern altitude, down leg and base turn it was confusing if the pilot intended to stay in the pattern. Simple misunderstanding that made a departure very confusing and stressful. Props to the pilots for staying cool and collected and not getting flustered
The Cessna 4MA belongs to my flight school, a plane I’ve flown many times 😬😬 same with 48804 😂
How come youre still in school then?
That guy sounded smooth glass. Id fly with him any day. If i flew, of course.
ATP? I think I flew it once or twice
This was very educational to me, because I used to live about an equal distance between KBFI and KSEA. I always wondered how those two airports, and Renton's Boeing Field, coordinated their ATC. Still don't have a complete picture of it, of course, but it was still interesting to listen to and watch (thanks for the great animation).
Thanks!
You should see what New York has to deal with, they've got JFK, Newark, and Laguardia all in very close proximity.
@@KingdaToro BFI and SEA are literally a stone throw away and the runways are lined up almost parallel. So this is way more serious than the things going on in NYC where there are many airports but far from this close to each other.
They don’t lol
@@victorpena3129 They have to have some sort of LOA (letters of agreements) between the facilities on how traffic needs to flow...
I want clear this whole situation up a bit further than other people may have noticed.
Starting from the beginning, Vistajet didn't call up for a regular IFR clearance because they probably had a very high-paying important passenger that was late for something in Athens. He probably was held on the ground for whatever reason and was told to standby for his IFR clearance. He needed to desperately depart to get the passenger to Athens on time, so he decided to depart VFR so that he can just be ready for taxi and takeoff immediately, instead of having to wait for his IFR clearance. These Vistajet seemed to be foreign pilots that aren't very familiar with U.S. VFR procedures, and are especially not aware of how busy SeaTac is.
So, they call up tower, holding short of the runway ready for departure, but they never reported their intentions or direction of flight and tower was confused on his intentions VFR. Tower asks Vistajet "just verifying your squawking VFR and understand you WANT a right traffic pattern?" This is a valid question to ask since tower probably never seen a Bombardier Global jet (about the size of CRJ200) depart VFR and also didn't know his intentions since he didn't call up with it. Vistajet thinks that the right traffic pattern question was an instruction and acknowledges it (they simply just said "right traffic pattern" as if it was an instruction for them), not knowing what kind of cluster he would get into, and also says "affirmative, squawking VFR 1200," as a response to tower's 1st part of the question.
So tower clears the aircraft for takeoff and expects him to fly a regular traffic pattern like any other pilot would in a prop aircraft. However, the Vistajet pilots probably wanted to just depart VFR northbound or something and pick up IFR, they weren't expecting to fly a VFR pattern. It is quite hard/impossible to fly a tight regular traffic pattern in a big business jet fully loaded with fuel and passengers bound for Athens, and the pilots probably have never attempted to do a traffic pattern in such a jet either, so they ran into some troubles there. They would need to keep a high speed to maintain airborne due to their weight and that causes a slower turn to happen, which was problematic for ATC and other traffic in the area. The pilots also were refusing to land due to maximum landing weight which is part of their plan to force ATC into giving them a IFR clearance in the air to cut the queue and be on their way to Athens.
In the end it looks like it worked out besides the horrendous traffic patterns: flightaware.com/live/flight/VJT868/history/20190613/1741Z/KBFI/LGAV
This still doesn’t make sense. The only way the controller would have thought they wanted to stay in the pattern is if the pilots specifically said they were looking to stay in the pattern. As far as I can tell the pilots basically said they just wanted a VFR departure. I’m confused at why the controller thinks this private jets wants to fly around in the pattern when the pilots mentioned nothing of the sort. Not saying the pilots were in the right here, but whenever I want to fly VFR I tell ATC my intentions, either what direction I want to fly, altitude, location, or if I want to simply stay in the pattern.
@@robjohnson3437 ... Well, when Vistajet calls ready for take off they don't mention intentions (which would be expected from a VFR flight), the tower then asks if they are flying a right traffic pattern to what the pilots confirm right traffic pattern (there seems to have been a misunderstanding, tower asked a question but pilots seem to have interpreted it as an instruction, to which they could have objected but didn't). Then tower again says (TWICE!) that pattern altitude will be 1500 and they don't object. Even when tower says continue downwind and I will call your base turn Vistajet doesn't object. Only when the tower says "you are overshooting your final, expect landing clearance on a 2 miles final" Vistajet says "we are departing to the North", and after an evasive maneuver request by the Tower and after the Tower asks for their intention again, only then they disclose "we are going to Athens". Really? So ok, yes, there was a lot of confusion, miscommunication and misunderstanding. But really? The pilots did not behave very professionally if you ask me. What did they expect? To take off and that the tower says "do whatever you want, hasta la vista vistajet"???
@@navy_flyer2331 ... Exactly. And yet, it did work... somehow... eventually....
racinggamerfail So next time ATC can tell them to fly a pattern out over the ocean until they've reached max landing weight! Screw those selfish people!
I think the pilots never denied the pattern work instructions until it became unbearable for them was due to several reasons. These are foreign pilots who almost don't fly VFR at all , especially not under US FAA ATC, and as far as I know VFR procedures can be quite different in Europe. Because the pilots interpreted ATC's question as an instruction to fly a pattern, they did not want to object or deny any sort of INSTRUCTION that ATC gave them. If they denied any instruction, then it would mean that they would be possibly subject to more delays. The pilots must've been super desperate to do whatever they could to get in the air, even if it means complying with a ridiculous ATC instruction, which is very unprofessional in my opinion. I'm assuming they never have flown a VFR pattern in a jet like that ever in their lives and so they didn't know what to expect. But after trying to fly a pattern and getting into conflict with other aircraft in the busy airspace, they realized that it wasn't a viable option to continue and tried to finally request what they wanted to do in the 1st place (VFR departure to the north).
I was dispatching 121 ops. We had pilots take a vfr clearance to lga during flow control. They would sit right under class b space, at the end of 31, wait to land. ATC put a stop to that quickly.
Pilot deserves a medal for flying through this and keeping his cool.
Which pilot? The guy who took off for Greece without a flight plan or IFR clearance and expected to file it with the busy local controller while in the pattern? The guy who confirmed he was VFR before leaving the ground? I guess it does take nerves of steel to fly when you're that low-functioning and self-obsessed. I'm glad they're all safe.
@@beenaplumber8379 Thats not the case, look at the posts above, the Vistajet did file IFR flight plan but was too heavy so they said depart VFR and once airborne youll be set up for IFR, ground failed to relay that to tower and the pilot had no idea why they were being turned around
@@mattnsac My bad if I missed that detail. That adds a whole new dimension to the charlie foxtrot. That wasn't clear from the video, and the title says the Gulfstream caused the chaos, so that's why I thought he was being rather unreasonable. What a mess.
@@mattnsac even tho they had filed IFR already, they did not pick up an IFR clearance from the ground. The pilots are wrong for doing this. As per your comment about the ground controller not passing along the info to tower, that’s not the case bc he was squawking VFR and did not have an IFR squawk code. Also while departing, the tower controller did try to confirm the pilots intentions and they failed to communicate properly to the tower controller. The pilots are clearly in the wrong and should definitely be given a phone number to talk to the FAA so that they can learn US NAS procedures. It’s not that hard to pick up IFR on the ground at a towered airport.
@@meet1348 I bet you've never picked up an IFR clearance in your life outside of MS Flight Simulator. In the real world, getting an IFR release in congested airspace like that is a non-trivial task and is ridiculous in severe clear VMC conditions. I bet you think IFR should always be closed on the ground, too? Even if that means effectively shutting down the surrounding airspace for upwards of 15 minutes for no reason at all.
It would be a global.. Not a Gulfstream.. Vistajet doesn't have Gulfstreams
Correct, the channel owner probably couldnt tell difference of a Gulfstream which have oval windows and a Global. The bizjets are so hard to tell from looking at them.
C Cheng no they aren't. Any pilot can differentiate a Global from a Gulfstream.
We can play make believe when ever we want
@@ccheng6477 It's not hard to tell the difference between a global and a gulfstream at all
@@ccheng6477 lol not really
The controller seems to be causing more problems than avoiding. Turning 868 to 320 at 1500ft right into the glide slope of the other plane.
The ATC sounded really stressed out maybe to many working hours. I felt for the guy!
Maybe the pilot just wanted to appear on a VAS video. 👍
Tower should of have them hold for 5 hours then land and get the clearance.
Peter Kan no, should’ve given them
“Fly 090 heading, maintain VFR recommend Seattle Center on 12345 for VFR flight following. Good day fine sir”
Peter Kan 😂😂😂
Peter Kan came down and pounded it into their head with a nail gun.
You should chech out more facts before judging... It was a communication breakdown within ground controlers.
@@ForeverMrZaphaell What kind of communication break down? So the takeoff briefing was "we are 10000 pounds above the landing weight and let's do a traffic pattern."
Those high dollar pax got the ride of their life in the first ten minutes.
Nice profile picture!
Would love to have heard the untransmitted words exchanged on both ends.
Just imagine the chat in the cockpit everytime mic was off ....
@@38911bytefree Good One
Is it me or did the ATC fuck it all up? Even I knew the 868 was departing. Why did the ATC want to land him??? Yeesh. I can't believe in 2021 with all the computerized technology we have they still haven't figured out how to automate departures and landings.
Arrogance. Tower wanted to teach a lesson to the VistaJet, because tower thought VistaJet shortcutted a departure with a VFR clearance. Turns out no lesson needed to be had since tower was wrong in that assumption. Conclusion: tower was an asshole that day.
And now I understand why Kennedy never even lets planes leave their gate without a flight plan at hand, because down the events, it just gets more and more stressful.
I also don't understand why they let that Vistajet fly close to all the other arriving and departing traffic all the time, instead of putting him into a holding pattern away from everything, until they have their IFR clearance.
Warning: Only pilots and ATC’s can make sense of this. As a total layperson I had no idea what was going on, but sounded like a mess.
Robert Edmondson as a Sim pilot, I was in deep facepalm mode.
Not true, I have absolutely no aviation education but am still able to follow both whats going on in the video and the discussion in the comments. (I have listened to quite a few atc and technical aviation videos and played some flight sim though...)
Just communication(s) Rules & Regulations whereas, the pilot had a plan, however, information was not passed along to the local controller as to the "primary intentions" of the VFR departing Vistajet in the pattern and his intended "transition" to go from VFR departure to IFR clearance. ✈🌍😎
Pilot should have realized what was going on when he was vectored “downwind”. That means your in the landing pattern
What a complete cluster.
I started watching it thinking "these jet pilots forgot how to fly a standard pattern" until he asks for clearance and then understood the sneaky maneuver he tried to pull.
I did the same thing two weeks ago but not out of a class Bravo. Launch VFR due to any number of reasons which would cause delays and pick up your clearance with Center as soon as you are airborne and out of the vicinity.
This was a clever plan but abysmally executed and they should have known better, especially in a super busy airspace like SEATAC.
Ditto! I was starting to type an identical response, then noticed your post. This crew needs desperately to be taken to the woodshed!
@@stephenzenerak7846 Depending on the traffic capacity of a certain area you may sometimes be "held for release" meaning that the controller is waiting for a capacity slot for you to depart with. At un-towered fields this is particularly common due to the airport only being able to handle one IFR aircraft at a time.
If the weather is good you can depart VFR to get out of the congested/problematic area and then pick up your IFR clearance enroute.
It sounds like that is what these guys tried to do but instead they asked to stay in the traffic pattern instead of requesting a "departure to the north". Then they tried to pick up an enroute clearance in an already congested airspace (which is why they probably weren't given their departure clearance on the ground) which likely annoyed the controllers as there are capacity restrictions in place for a reason.
Trying to pick up an enroute clearance can backfire if you try to pull a fast one because ATC can decline if their workload permits (as they originally did in this video).
The shortest explanation is this: (and based largely on conjecture, as to the flight crew's motives)
First, Download this.PDF: tinyurl.com/y2sp9z6y
*I'm guessing that the passenger/passengers aboard 'pushed the flight crews's buttons' to get them the he** out of Seattle. Vistajet's dispatchers/flight ops staff must have had some knowledge as to what was up. Vistajet "ain't no small company", they are a large, and legitimate charter airline. Add to this, the fact that a G550, is a $45M, to $65M (amenities), very technically advanced machine; those pilots aren't the overworked/underappreciated and poorly paid commuter airline "puddle jumping jitney hack drivers, flying puddle jumpers just to build PIC time and get called-up to the big leagues", these guys would feel right at home at any large airline.
*IFR flight plans involve significant planning, when considering that the probable flight route encompasses/incorporates a great deal of distance across Canada, and through Canadian airspace; over Greenland; over **Iceland; skirt Ireland and the UK; then, finally, "Eurocontrol". As before, this flight needed to submit an IFR Flight Plan, proposed route of travel, times of expected waypoint arrival/in-transition/transitional departure between those waypoints, altitudes, proposed/actual expected speeds, WEATHER, I say again - WEATHER.
Remember, Jetstreams can either help you, or slow you down; they've had to have had a look at the latest "North Atlantic Track" mapping/projections.
It would take no less than 45 minutes, to key-in the navigational waypoints necessary to fly to Athens, and that doesn't take into account, the (normally) three verification procedures and confirmations necessary in most airline policies and procedures manuals/documents.
**Athens would distance-wise, be at or near the maximum range of a G550; I'd schedule a refuel @ Reykjavik NEVER PUSH THE MARGINS
Combine this info, with the other stuff written in responses, and you'll be at least halfway there.
This flight, plainly, and simply, pulled a bulls**t move, in an ill-advised attempt to butt in line. One thing is certain, someone, somewhere got chewed out, and bigtime, over this....
Does anyone know if they initially entered the IFR queue, and timed out, or attempted changes which locked them out, and voided the original IFR transmittal/sequence?? Sorry, and thanks!!
MonkeyPaw Thankyou!! 👍🏼
This is one of them videos where I actually pull out my hair watching. Casually nearly cutting across 3 active runways...
yeah, I wasn't able to see anything. I had to just sit here and listen.
I love moments where the controllers get order crazy and start ordering planes “heading north, north now, you need to go north” when you’re looking at your heading indicator and it’s already showing 0/360 and your compass settles down and confirms it along with your gps. “Approach, we’re already heading North... so please advise?”
Or “I need you to turn north, turn faster” and you just get to respond “we began turning at the first order, we’re already in a maximum bank, are you suggesting I ignore my plane’s restrictions, is this an emergency?” and hear them start to take their tone down
You are an idiot he was not 0/360 and you can CLEARLY see that.
When you're about to run into another airplane, you don't think that constitutes maybe an emergency and to expedite the turn BEYOND their max 30 degree bank?
What the hell is going on here..why did he takeoff vfr and fly around at 1500ft and then tell them he's going to Athens..am I missing something here??
His passengers must be loving this
I'd bet they were empty, just crew.
getting an IFR release can take longer in busy airspace. getting your ifr clearance in the air is a way around that. but doing that for a trans-oceanic clearance? that's stretching it. the controller was pissed and rightfully so.
ElvianEmpire In a Bravo airport, almost certainly clearance is required to leave the airspace. (Including VFR departures). Usually you’ll hear “VFR departures contact clearance delivery” on the ATIS. The only exception is aircraft remaining in the pattern since they aren’t leaving and don’t need to be sequences. They’re under positive control from the tower.
So a VFR departure out without clearance likely isn’t legal here.
@@ElvianEmpire all that shenanigans almost got people killed. I've never seen anything like that in my career. Absolutely uncalled for.
@@RomansFiveDotEight - I got my initial private pilot's license at BFI. You can depart VFR just talking to the tower. But because you have SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton just a few miles to the east, it is INCREDIBLY tight airspace and there are very specific corridors you must fly. These corridors are narrow, but with a modicum of preparation and careful attention to landmarks you can do it no problem. Student pilots manage this several times a day at BFI, flying about 15 miles E to go practice maneuvers, then flying back into BFI airspace to practice landings.
These Jet Jokers obviously did _not_ understand the airspace or the requirements for flying VFR properly out of BFI. Their sloppy maneuvering is a shameful display that demonstrates their lack of understanding (or disregard for) the incredible amount of air traffic surrounding BFI - all of it flying at a similar altitude. The airport has pamphlets in just about every FBO and business around the airport that explains these corridors and procedures! And again: If student pilots can understand this stuff, it ain't rocket science.
Although it still would've been a bit shady, they could have departed VFR and flown at a low level to the north or the south (through the defined corridors underneath SEATAC airspace), then climbed up once clear of the Class B airspace and dialed up ATC on the phone or the radio to get their IFR clearance.
Instead they deliberately misled the BFI Tower by stating that they were going to just make a couple of pattern flights around the airport. Their initial radio calls clearly set expectations with ATC that they were just doing a quick flight. But then *after* screwing up the pattern and obviously having problems remaining in the proper airspace, they started asking for IFR clearance from the Tower (not the right guys to ask in any case) all while the controllers are still dealing with the aftermath of their poor maneuvering *and* while they are still posing a possible threat to the other airplanes in the immediate vicinity. That controller was perfectly justified in telling them to go to hell (i.e. land the plane).
Well that was a complete balls up by ATC. Had them conducting a right base into on coming traffic lol wtf. Then no suggestions from the Captain on vista686 to make left turn or anything?
Surprised the vista686 didn’t question what atc was thinking with the downwind departure and right turn after take off from 32L. Why not just request a VFR departure hdg to intercept outbound track and just maintain 1500ft till clear of the airfield then pick you your ifr clearance with you request for climb?
The 1500ft requirement call from ATC would’ve been the trigger for me to question things at the holding point. What a shmozzel
This was amazing to listen to, very strange that no IFR clearance was taken by the crew on the ground, especially in that airspace and than picking it up in the circuit 😳. Oh well for everything there's a first.... nice and very good professional controller btw who helped them out taking the clearance airborne anyway..... Just wanted to say that as there were some remarks about him being in the wrong. Happy everything went without big incidents....
There is a comment that is fortunately now at the top of the page explaining the context.
The aircraft had an IFR flight plan all set up before departure but had to change runway for performance reasons. The new runway could only be flown under VFR, so Ground advised the aircraft to take off with VFR and then pick up their planned IFR clearance airborne. However, Tower was never informed of this fact and assumed someting between the aircraft wanting to (a) fly patterns and come back in or (b) wanting to request an IFR clearance out of the blue mid-air.
4:25 I love how the ATC is so dumbstruck that he gets there call sign wrong.
Yeah, I'm confused, too.
I’ve watched this about 5 times now. There’s so many funny moments!!! 😂
Also, I’ll be flying commercial a few times in the next couple of months. I would have been fine, but this might make me nervous now!
Retired ATC here. This is painful to listen to.
Which side of the conversation do you find most painful? As a pilot I think the flight crew acted like a bunch of turds.
sir how was the salary?
This might seem painful to read but would you be so kind as to provide some credentials?
Lies!!!
Hey Michael, I know the pilots have operational limits they have to fly the plane within, but the "we're at max bank" kind of sounded to me as more of a "F-you ATC" and less of a "this is all she can handle at the moment." Am I correct? (Edited to get the correct quote.)
When ATC told a departing plane to fly base I was a bit confused because I usually only hear that instruction given for planes arriving. But the pilot copied the instruction and started flying a south base even though he was departing north, so I figured everything must be okay. However when ATC said that 686 is overrunning their turn for final I almost crapped my pants. Then when ATC calls the flight 848 at 4:34 I did a facepalm. But I have to keep in mind that a bad day in the office for me means that someone can’t print or the coffee pot was empty. A bad day in the office for a controller means that people die. It’s such an incredibly stressful job that there’s a maximum age limit for new controllers, just like there’s a max age limit to join most (if not all) branches of the military. I commend the pilot of 868 for staying calm and being polite. He had every right to be upset about the danger he was put into but he was professional enough to know that his main priority was the safety of the souls onboard, and that there will be plenty of time to complain later.
I noted that about half way through 868 switches who is talking on the radio. I wonder if the first pilot was worried he'd loose his professional calm with ATC.
I could've sworn that I was listening to an AirforceProud95 flight simulator session...
Nah, there wasn't an Air Force One in the session XD
I live a mile from BFI and it’s quite a lively mix of GA, Freight, Charter, Airtankers, and the occasional F-18 Growler wing popping in from Whidbey NAS
As an ASEL pilot I’d be so stressed swimming among those large turbine aircraft. Just listening to this I’m glad I’m a hobby flyer and keep it simple and fun.
No one asked
Vistajet 868 is a Global 6000 not a Gulfstream
When no one is ever allowed to make a mistake it can get very difficult not to make a mistake.
who said that? Lincoln or Trump?
This takes filing an airborne flight plan to a whole new level.
It looked like tower thought that the jet wanted to fly a standard pattern, come back and land. It turns out big fella wanted to go to Athens and pick up IFR airborne but the tower controller did not know his intentions. That’s what caused the confusion from what it looks like here. However, although the pilots were legal as per part 91 rules, the pilots should have let tower know that they intended to depart VFR northbound, instead of not saying anything when tower mentioned the traffic pattern.
Nailed it
Are they really legal though, if they are not able to fly the pattern properly and still accept that clearance?
They may have been legal until they busted the Bravo. They also intentionally lied to the controller, that could fall as a bust for multiple FARs
@@markus_landgren they never wanted to fly a pattern. They were trying to leave the area VFR but the tower turned him to the downwind
@@smitty1893 I know he didn't want to fly a pattern, he just deceived the controller by telling him he wanted to fly the pattern when he in reality had other intentions. Is it legal to lie to the controller like that? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm genuinely asking.
ATC fault, no real fault of Vistajet at all. Thank heavens the pilot was so calm and steady. But to be fair, it's horrendous airspace and ATC have a massive amount to do. Such congestion shouldn't be so common, but that's the way in some places. The "I want" culture in spades.
My dad sent me a text showing an ad about the FAA hiring for ATC personnel. This video proves my point to him why I couldn't handle that kind of job.
Circuits in an overweight (at least for landing) Gulfstream... Sounds like fun. Even with the communication breakdown between controllers, it seems like the pilots and the tower had a few opportunities to confirm the intentions before the a/c was even airborne.
God, that was stressful just to watch!
So many people hanging the pilots out to dry when it was in fact ATC at fault.
KLM and easyJet have collided at Amsterdam. Please make a vid mate :)
You can take off vfr and pick up your ifr clearance with approach if they're not busy if not you can always get it with the local flight service station. Not sure what the confusion was all about.
Wow, so he thought he'd pick up IFR clearance in the busy airspace? Dangerous.
He probably would've gotten what he wanted, if he'd just asked for a VFR departure to the east or north, and then asked for flight following, and then asked for IFR clearance from Center while giving his VIP passenger a flyby of Snoqualmie Falls...
Dangerous? How?
blake 1. Busy airspace, tracon spitting out instructions with hardly any space to check in, so you have to wait. 2. While waiting, you’re inside a busy airspace with no established separation services, so you have to focus outside, not inside in writing down clearances.
@@TakingOff its annoying. Its not dangerous. for some airports it is the ONLY way to get clearance. Dont spread disinformation.
@@philipmcniel4908 See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
What a weird situation... glad the controller was able to sort things out.
Raynair would consider that a passenger sightseeing excursion , flying around at 1500. The flight attendants will be down the isles to collect from anyone with a window seat . Cash only please
operating a jet but flying it like a hobbyplot, unbelievable...👺
The response to needing 5 hours to burn fuel should have been holding instructions. Make him waste the fuel. The pilot can always pickup his toys and leave as in go vfr out of the bravo and get a plan.
Fuel dumping is something to be done only when there's no other options (i.e. an emergency or a situation in which the pilots deem that they must return to the airport ASAP), it's a rather dangerous operation, traffic at or bellow FL of the aircraft dumping must be alerted not to fly in the area among other considerations like economical and environmental.
@Javier, he didn't mean dump the fuel. He meant stay in a hold a burn off the fuel.
@@micahgreene4573 Oh... Ok! My bad
@@javiercaselli That's assuming the aircraft in question is equipped to be able to dump fuel. Not always the case with smaller aircraft.
It’s legal to pick up an IFR in the air with departure. It’s quite common to ask tower for VFR departure to say the North, and then pick up your filed route with departure. Now you can ask for closed pattern, and then leave the pattern, and not tell tower what’s going on.
Vistajet says, "every journey is tailored to ensure seamless travel in elegant interiors incorporating in-flight offices and a home away from home environment". Their panes have at minimum 3 different sleeping positions. The top 1% rules the world.
I would love to be that entitled just for a day or two.. Different world.
At least this pilot is very very calm and fast responsive💯even tho he was so close with that 757! 👍
Could they just plan and ask the tower for a VFR flight to the east and fly below the Bravo airspace to a less busy airspace then get their IFR clearance later with Center ?
Be warned before scrolling down to the comments, hell of a lot of expert pilots out there.
So is the assumption that the crew were delayed in picking up their IFR and decided then to just take off anyway and hope that Clearance would give them their IFR while airborne? Yikes. How unprofessional.
Welcome to the world of executive Aviation... if your customer wants you to depart now, you better do so, or he’ll finds someone who can for sure... 🤷🏼♂️
@@737CargoGuy I've been flying corporate for over 18 years. Never in my life would I pull a stunt like this.
It’s... legal. If Ill advised.
It’s legal to takeoff VFR and pickup an IFR clearance in the air. But... that’s usually in the context of small piston aircraft departing small untowered fields. Or perhaps taking off with marginal weather; wanting to go VFR, but filing an IFR flight plan in case the weather turns poor (and they need to pick it up in the air)
Of course, ATC is not required to give an IFR clearance airborne.
James Lee well... for me it was a common procedure during flight training. If we received a Slot and were very short in time, we filed a new Zulu Flight Plan, departed VFR and picked up our clearance once airborne.
However.. that happened outside CTR Airspace D. And no I’m not saying, that the pilots showed any good airmanship. I was simply giving an possible explanation for them to do this.
Can someone explain why on earth they flew the pattern before departing to Athens? Why didn’t they just file IFR to Athens from the start?
Why were they giving the pilots a landing clearance when they were supposed to fly to Athens?
I am not an aviation expert, can someone explain to me exactly what happened in layman’s terms?
Thanks!
Tyler Vossler A jet departed hoping to pick up the authorization for their flight plan in the air but instead was taken on a wild goose chase around the airport.
Pilot was NOT trying to pull a "fast one". He had an IFR filed, but safety reasons forced him to make a nonstandard (opposite direction!) departure, factors including plane weight and surrounding environment, and could only depart VFR. There was an IFR clearance waiting, pre-arranged, which the Ground controller (who'd _made_ them depart VFR) didn't pass along! Departure incorrectly assumed first that he was just flying patterns around the GA field, then second that he was trying to pull a fast one (by getting IFR while airborne). The crazy vectoring happened because an executive jet covers territory faster than a pilot school 172, and doesn't turn as sharply either.
Why would they not pickup ifr on the ground? Boeing field has a perfectly good clearance frequency which was active (I pulled up liveatc archives to make sure).. Why would they not want departure to vector them safely away from seatac traffic, especially since they were going to pickup ifr anyway?
Wanted to do some sick sightseeing over Seattle.
I don't understand
Too much of a lineup.
Sometimes if there is a delay in picking up IFR on the ground for whatever reason, some pilots would go VFR then pick it up with departure. it's a schedule thing, keeping his time slot or just don't like waiting.
Maybe they even filed a Z flightplan, we don't know?
Whoa! This makes no sense. This Vista jet took off and then expected to get IFR clearance to another country while on departure?! Why didn’t he get his IFR clearance before taxing like everyone else? Lol wow. It’s not like this was an uncontrolled airport
Read other comments to understand
‘We’re max bank’ and still never looked at the Seattle TAC
Omg I had sweaty palms this whole video
I work at BFI. Watching this from the ground was as funny as listening to it. Was a huge cluster
Yeah. A "near-miss" mid-air right over the airport because a couple Commonwealth cocksuckers with an entitlement complex every.big as their "skills" and "training" and capacity to "pilot" anything but a PAPER AIRPLANE COMPETENTLY IS SMALL DECIDE TO "OUTSMART" ATC, THE FAA AND THE "TRAFFIC" BY "PLAYING DUMB" SO CONVINCINGLY BECAUSE AS ANYBODY WITH A FUNCTIONING BRAIN CAN SEE/HEAR THEY DON'T HAVE TO "PLAY DUMB" PERIOD AND OBVIOUSLY "OUTSMARTED" ONLY THEMSELVES IS JUST FUCKING "HILARIOUS", ISN'T IT?
SO.WHO WAS DOING YOUR JOB WHILE YOU WERE STANDING AROUND WATCHING THE AIRSHOW" AND HOPING TO SEE SOMETHING "FUNNY"?
WHATEVER AMERICAN CO-WORKER(S) OF YOURS WHO ALWAYS HAVE TO COVER FOR
A DUMBFUCK "PLANESPOTTER" THAT'S PROBABLY IN "AMERICA" TO "WORK" ON THE SAME H1B "GUEST WORKER" VISA THAT LETS "COMMONWEALTH CITIZENS" INTO THE U.S. SO THEY CAN BE A WASTE OF SPACE IN HERE INSTEAD OF BACK "HOME" WHERE EVEN THEIR FELLOW "COMMONWEALTH CITIZENS" CAN SEE THEY'RE USELESS AND ACCIDENTS WAITING TO HAPPEN?
PROBABLY. SO HOW.MANY TOILETS CAN SCRUB OR TRASH CANS CAN YOU EMPTY AT YOUR "AVIATION INDUSTRY" JOB BEFORE YOUR "MIND" STARTS TO WANDER AND YOU SLIP BACK INTO "PLANESPOTTER" MODE?
@@deeremeyer1749 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
@@deeremeyer1749 shut up.
@@Penoatle Up yours.
@@deeremeyer1749 dude your reply is so ridiculous :)
74MA sounds like the guy that runs the Aviation 101 channel.
I didn't know one could get IFR clearance once airborne.
I'm gonna do that next time on pilotedge.
It's a pretty common thing IRL. You can take off VFR and get your IFR clearance from the Approach/Departure controller. If you're at a Bravo airport you can call up ground and say you want to take off VFR and get IFR clearance airbourne. It's a shortcut if you don't want to wait for a slot on the ground
I presume he should have said he was departing VFR to the north and then contacted approach for the clearance?.
But could he not have gotten the clearance from the tower before getting airborn?
He would have been in a long lineup for departure if he was leaving with the rest of the IFR flights. Leaving VFR and then picking up IFR enroute was his cunning plan. I'm sure he's done it many times with a more savvy controller.
He was being an arsehole and trying to save the 20-45 minutes it would take to do it all on the ground first.
@@andytaylor1588 So I presume then for an IFR departure, it would have had to be coordinated with all the other IFR departures from the other airports?
Yea the tower should of giving him to departure to have them make him IFR. I wouldn't be surprised if he got his IFR on the ground and then when he found out he was getting delayed decided to depart VFR.
ATC: fly runway heading (140), there is traffic off to your left at 10 o'clock moving to 11 o'clock.
VISTAJET 868: roger, can we fly heading 040?
you neglected the altitude...
couldnt help but laugh IMO lol what would have been really funny if they said "no we cant negotiate, hold out there for 5 hours to get max landing weight and then you can pick up your ifr clearance" 0.0
I am starting to understand the IFR VFR trick. But I cannot sort out the controllers directions from there. Why was the controller telling the Vistajet to go south were he got into trouble with the 757? Seemingly in preparations for a landing the Vistajet didn't want and claimed he couldn't make? Then to contact approach? After flying around a bit Vistajet went on off to the north then to Athens. So very little of this makes sense to me.
During the initial radio calls, the Vistajet pilots made it sound like they were going to fly a couple of laps around the airport (this is referred to as the "pattern"). You do it to practice landings or to stay close to the airport to check a potential problem with the airplane (such as after maintenance). So for the first several minutes the controller was trying to get the VistaJet pilots to make a proper (tight) lap around the airport area. Doing this properly is especially crucial at BFI airport because it has SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton airport just a few miles to the east. All are busy airports with everything from small Cessna-type airplanes, to Biz-jets, to big Airliners flying in and out. Its complicated airspace that is all very clearly marked and flying there you have set procedures and directions you're supposed to fly. These guys obviously had no clue - they were wandering around making huge wide turns, straying into neighboring airspace, and coming within a mile or less of big/fast airplanes flying in the opposite direction.
After they started talking about IFR to Athens, the controller was still trying to get them to fly a traffic pattern around the airport so that he could keep their asses away from the other airports/airplanes for the safety of everyone involved. He was buying time to "work the problem".
Eventually he starts telling them to go south and fly over the runway because that is one of the published departure routes from BFI (when flying VFR). Its a corridor of airspace that avoids SEATAC traffic and allows you to safely get away from the busy traffic areas. Basically, the controller was just doing his best to make it stupid-simple for them to get the heck away from the area, fly the direction they _should_ have flown from the beginning (i.e. if they'd known what they were doing they could have departed VFR to the south along this route and the controller would've happily let them take off, turn right 180 degrees, and then fly south - no drama and it would've taken all of about 3 minutes).
@@noelwade Thanks. The whole episode makes a lot of more sense now. Including the ire I've heard from pilots posting here and elsewhere.
Wow, tower jacked this up beyond comprehension 🤦🏼♂️
Ok so if you dont understand what is going on this is what i can gather:
Pilot requested a VFR clearence because it is probably easier and faster than a IFR clearence, knowing that after they take off they will be in everybodys way and then ask for an IFR clearence for their destination, ATC cant order them to land overweight since technically they are doing everything “legal” its just that they are a pain in the ass, so basically they are blackmailing atc into giving them IFR clearence while airborne just so atc can get rid of them, probably a loophole somewhere, seems like they have done this before, i am probably wrong in some regards but i guess everyone will comment how am i wrong in the replys so 🤷🏼♂️
Thanks for this. Makes sense.
Hi Juan... I don't know much about aircraft beyond following this channel. But this is super interesting to me. As someone totally ignorant about flying, would it be correct for me to summarize: The pilot wanted to get off the ground faster so he asked for VFR clearance. With VFR it's his job to keep himself out of the way of other planes and certain airspace. So he gets up in the air and then requests IFR instructions where it becomes the tower's job to keep him out of the way of other planes. And the tower isn't able to give him IFR (or they would have let him take off with IFR instead of VFR) and so he ends up straying all over the place and getting in the way of other aircraft. Just trying to figure out if I've got it right, lots of people arguing on here :)
Aaron Sakulich thats is a good summary, probably something like that is what happened
@@pedropabloarango Nice, thank you! I appreciate it.
It is legal yes. But is it smart? It would make sense if that was a cross country flight on a Cessna 172 and not a transoceanic flight.
I am addicted to these videos!
Any audio from that Air Canada B772 wind shear divert to HNL a couple days ago? I heard 9 serious injuries.
For the know-nothings, how did ATC switch from having the Gulfstream depart to land again? ATC says thy can't give IFR clearance airborne. Does that mean the Gulfstream had not cleared a plan before takeoff?
i don't know about clearances where they are, but flying here in australia you talk to clearance delivery before you even get your taxi clearance
Being a lowly Private Pilot, this is why I avoid Class Bravo like the plague!
In can be fun to fly through, right over major cities. But land at? No thanks!
My god... what we don't hear is the frantic coordination between this tower controller and some sort of departure controller trying to get this guy in some sort of sequence to exit VFR but also to be in a position to transition to an IFR flight plan. What a cluster... I trained as a controller for about 8 months and said no thanks to that job. I'm went ahead and picked up my pilot training instead. Just passed my IFR checkride a few weeks ago and starting commercial soon.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
Was anyone else waiting for those magical words "Possible Pilot Deviation"?
Well, he didn't do anything wrong or didn't do anything deviated from what instructed so no number needed. What's wrong is the way of doing things by both parts.
ATC mixes up callsign, calling Vistajet 848... @4:40